"Dear Mr. and Mrs. UH, I'm not sure how to say this, but..."

[AnnabelMore]

Hey all. I thought about tacking this on to one of a couple of different related threads but decided it fit best as a stand alone.

I'm thinking about the way we as a community approach people who come to the boards seeking advice on a topic that we think is problematic. Particularly I'm thinking about the stereotypical "m/f couple seeking single f to join them in exclusive relationship" folks, though I imagine this question could apply to other issues.

I myself once held the unicorn-hunting dream close to my heart (from the unicorn's perspective). It took a long, slow period of reading, hearing other people's stories, and going through personal experiences to get to the point where I could say "gee, this concept has some issues with it and so I will let it go by the wayside as any sort of ideal." Now, when I see other people carrying around that same dream I try to take the time to say "hey, you may want to rethink this." As do many of us. Cuz we all want to help, yeah? Otherwise why would we be here.

But people don't like being told there's an issue with something close to their hearts... I probably wouldn't have liked it either back in the day. All too often they take it as a personal attack and/or they just don't seem to get what's being said.

On top of that, sometimes the people trying to give advice get really aggressive about the topic being discussed. I personally have read one too many upsetting accounts of third partners getting dumped in the midst of bad situations that could have been avoided with more knowledge and perspective, and so sometimes I get really heated, really upset, when I see the same old patterns repeating themselves in new posts. I have to remind myself that attacking people in no way whatsoever makes them more likely to hear you. And that situation X cannot necessarily be assumed to be a clone of situation Y just because they bear certain outward similarities.

In multiple instances, people have fled the boards because of feeling attacked. Were they being too sensitive? Or do we need to chill out about how we approach folks? If the goal is really to help anyone who comes here to be helped, how best can we do that? Is it even possible to help someone who's deadset on a narrow triadic vision of poly to understand why they might want to broaden their horizons, or is this something that generally people need to come to themselves, through experience? Is it mere hubris and projection to even think that we *should* be trying to "help" people in such a fashion, or should we just let them be?

[AnnabelMore]

Ah, thought of one. OPP is, of course, an example of another topic that causes strong reactions and that people can feel attacked about here from time to time.

[AnnabelMore]

Yet another question is not just how, but *when* to give advice on these difficult topics. For example, in the Poly Relationships section, ok, the whole point of that board is to give advice! But if I'm reading someone's blog and I'm seeing things that I think are problematic...... do I mention it and risk starting a fraught discussion in what's supposed to be their safe space? Or do I just let it go until they explicitly ask for feedback? At what point am I being helpful and at what point am I just being a stalker-y zealot seeking a trace of transgression so that I can jump from behind the bushes and yell "You're doing it wrong!!!!!"

Ok, ok, gonna stop posting for a bit and see if anyone has any thoughts.

[mostlyclueless]

I wonder if it might not be helpful to separate the boards differently. In my limited experience here, it seems like there are many people coming in and asking the same questions and making the same mistakes that have been brought up time and time again. So the old-timers roll their eyes, tell them to search the tags, and often give a written slap on the wrist for the obvious mistakes made.

And of course they do. It's annoying to have to explain the same shit over and over.

So maybe it would make more sense to have, like, levels of experience boards, or something -- a judgment-free zone for new people to come, lay it out warts and all, and get some advice from the old-timers who can stand to go another round with them. And then a separate board for people who have more experience and know what's up.

Just a thought.

[BrigidsDaughter]

The Bird Cage (a NY state poly forum) has something similar to that. They have three separate threads "New to Poly", "Been there, done that", and "poly families". These are all under the relationships heading. Perhaps something similar could be done here. I don't know.

[PinkDragon]

I have read enough on this forum to know that what we (me, Bear, and Lovely) are trying is fraught with issues. However, we set up a date to go out on before any of us ventured onto a poly site. And I'm the only one that ventured. Sure, I'm telling Bear about what I'm reading, and I told Lovely about the site, but I'm the only one that's gathering information about the poly lifestyle first hand.

What would you have me do? Tell Lovely, "Oh, I'm sorry, we're going to have to cancel our triad date and you're going to have to choose one of us to go out with because the folks over at polyamory.com say that a triad relationship isn't going to work. EVER."

That would be rather cruel. She is looking forward to going on a date with US, not just one of us. Maybe it totally won't work. But I really don't see why. There are people that engage in polygamy where the wives are involved with each other as well as with the husband. There are group marriages. I would think that if there's anything that's not going to work that it's a group marriage. At some point isn't someone going to wonder who fathered what child?

So, while I really appreciate that you guys are trying to keep newbies like myself from making a horrible, heart-breaking mistake, I'm afraid that it's a mistake I'm just going to have to make. (Not saying that this post was aimed at me, but I wanted to weigh in on it).

And, I realize that for people like me the thought is that I shouldn't limit myself to just one situation or just one gender. If I was a lesbian would you tell me that I need to be open to a relationship with a man? Probably not. I really, truly do not want to have a relationship with any man other than my husband. I guess I just don't like guys that much. Honestly, if something were to happen to my Bear, I'd never get involved with another man. He's one of a kind.

Before you decide that I feel like I'm being attacked, I don't. But this is my opinion. Maybe we'll all go out and she won't like either of us. Maybe we'll try swinging instead, seems there are less rules for that.

[SNeacail]

PinkDragon, this post wasn't aimed at you. I believe it was more aimed at getting people to tone down some of their responses, so posters, especially newbies, don't feel like they are under attack. Of course you shouldn't NOT go out on your date. Date, have fun, have hot threesome sex, but don't dismiss the warnings and advice of others, just because they might come across TOO aggressive in their opinion.

In my observations, what tends to set people off the most is when there seems to be cheating and/or an unfair balance of power. It is usually centered around demanding exclusivity from the newest addition or an existing unit(couple) making all the ground rules, etc. Talk of "Moving in" at the beginning of a relationship, is like sending up emergency caution flares that brings people running to try and stop a disaster in the making.

[AutumnalTone]

... the folks over at polyamory.com say that a triad relationship isn't going to work. EVER."


Well, that would be a gross misrepresentation. There are folks here involved in triads and I doubt you'd find anybody who seriously thinks triads never work.

*Unicorn hunting* is usually a bad thing, for lots of reasons. There is a major difference between unicorn hunting and having a triad emerge naturally, though. You'll also find experienced folks railing against unicorn hunting in other places (the Fet Life poly groups, for example).

So be careful when trying to generalize what is said here.

[opalescent]

I've been mulling over starting a Unicorn Hunters stereotype thread where everyone could pitch in their thoughts on what is in that stereotype. (I would start with expects exclusivity quickly and go from there.) Then we could point to the thread as the collective wisdom on what to avoid while searching for a third.

[ThatGirlInGray]

But if I'm reading someone's blog and I'm seeing things that I think are problematic...... do I mention it and risk starting a fraught discussion in what's supposed to be their safe space? Or do I just let it go until they explicitly ask for feedback? At what point am I being helpful and at what point am I just being a stalker-y zealot seeking a trace of transgression so that I can jump from behind the bushes and yell "You're doing it wrong!!!!!"

My thought on this bit specifically: Why not send a PM? A thoughtful message that says, "I found myself concerned about some things I read in your blog, here they are and my reasons why," will probably at least get read. The poster then has the option to ignore the PM or respond as they choose, and are less likely to be put on the defensive. A post on their public blog is more likely to make someone feel the need to support or defend whatever they originally posted.

In my limited experience here, it seems like there are many people coming in and asking the same questions and making the same mistakes that have been brought up time and time again. So the old-timers roll their eyes, tell them to search the tags, and often give a written slap on the wrist for the obvious mistakes made.

And of course they do. It's annoying to have to explain the same shit over and over.

How about if those old-timers just take a break, then, instead of lashing out or being so obviously annoyed with people who are honestly trying to figure out something really off their beaten path? No one's required to respond to any of the Poly Relationship Corner threads.

I can see in some cases where a suggestion to do a tag search really is helpful, but the other side of that coin is that people don't come here JUST to read about other people's situations. They come here (generally) to talk out their own problems and to get advice that is more specific to them. It's human nature. Again, if people don't want to participate that's fine, they aren't required to respond. But talking down to the OP isn't the solution.

(Annabel, thanks for starting this thread)

(AT, it may be a gross misrepresentation for the forums in general, but for the threads specific to unicorn-hunting/forming a triad from a 2+1 situation? Not that far off the mark, at least in the last few months. And taking into account PinkDragon's obvious sarcasm for dramatic effect!)

[BaggagePatrol]

Annabel - you are an amazing human being, and over and over again I find your posts helpful, respectful and incredibly thought provoking. You have asked me some tough questions over the months, but never once have I felt disrespected by you, and I attribute some great growth in areas of our relationship to you. Thank you for this post.

I cannot say the same for everyone who has posted on my blog, or in some of the replies that I read that literally leave me shocked with their ferocious and accusatory tone :eek: For myself, I can stand up and say when I think that someone is out of line, and discern between what feels right for me or not, but for people just finding their footing/starting out it can be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I agree with ThatGirl - a PM is totally appropriate for expressing concerns. It can be challenging to hear "negative" feedback even in a PM, but it can become almost impossible if three or four (or more) people chime in and newbies end up feeling totally dominated in a public forum. The words shaming, bullying and attacking come to mind, and none of those are very conducive to growth:mad:

I like the idea of segmenting out the boards, but also feel like there are people with experience AND patience AND tolerance who have helped me LOADS who might not have if they were in their own solar system with other experienced people. I think that lines of respect definitely get blurred at times though, and that nobody deserves to feel attacked - there are ways of expressing disagreement/concerns that still speak of respect IMHO.

Pink: Good for you! I felt the same way about my triad on the forum - everyone suggesting that I get into dyads right out of the gate, that our boundaries wouldn't work, etc. etc. etc. We had to live out our own truth and learn our own lessons - at times I felt that I was being "hurried through" the initial bliss of trying out something new and exciting by people who had become jaded and cynical about triads. Sure, in the end some of their warnings were correct (the people who were correct definitely strike me as the "I told you so" variety :D), but here we are almost eight months later, and our relationship is continuing to develop and grow. There *were* people that were and still are supportive during our whole process though, and I truly consider those people friends in my life. Things can go wrong in ANY relationship set up - it doesn't mean that they will for you. To me encouragement and listening goes a lot farther than advice or assumption ever does - we all know what we want to do, and for me, these boards just help me get clearer about the path that I know I want to take in my life as it unfolds under my feet.

[PinkDragon]

t

Pink: Good for you! I felt the same way about my triad on the forum - everyone suggesting that I get into dyads right out of the gate, that our boundaries wouldn't work, etc. etc. etc. We had to live out our own truth and learn our own lessons - at times I felt that I was being "hurried through" the initial bliss of trying out something new and exciting by people who had become jaded and cynical about triads. Sure, in the end some of their warnings were correct (the people who were correct definitely strike me as the "I told you so" variety :D), but here we are almost eight months later, and our relationship is continuing to develop and grow.


Ahhh! Someone in a triad that's working! LOL Thanks for your words : ) I was really feeling like I was being patted on the head by some and told that I was so cute. Kwim?

The three of us had a great conversation on the phone last night and are looking forward to meeting IRL. Due to distance constraints and family duties we won't be rushing head first into anything. Our first duties are to our already extant families. We have kids, she has a kid. They come first and THEN we get to play.

[CielDuMatin]

The idea of having the separate boards isn't to restrict folks to one or the other, it's more to set an expectation.

If someone posts on the "New To Poly" board and doesn't have their terminology straight or does the DADT, or OPP or UH type stuff, then it's important to treat them with more respect and go slowly.

Having that in another board means that those folks who don't want to deal with that side of things can stay away and not be irritated by them.

[nycindie]

The "Poly Relationship Corner" forum used to be called "New to Poly" and was changed fairly recently. See: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19250.

My guess is that the forum topics wouldn't be changed any time soon, unless something urgent happens. Olivier popped in here recently but I think that was the first time in over a year, and I am pretty sure that there is a list of changes still waiting for the next software update. If people want a big change, how I understand the process is someone starts a discussion about it in the "User Guidelines & Forum Features" section, people weigh in, and then the Moderators have a pow-wow. If there is enough consensus, it makes sense, and they feel it will benefit the community, then they send a request to Olivier, unless it is something minor that the Mods can take care of themselves. At least that is what the process looked like to me when we had a discussion about some other changes people wanted.

[Vixtoria]

I also felt the need to weigh in here. DH and I recently started listening to a new poly podcast, Pedestrian Polyamory. One episode discusses the newbies. I was thrilled about this because they addressed that there is a MAJOR difference between 'single' people coming to poly and couples. There is a lot of poly pitfalls for newbies so having a board for newbies maybe moderated by someone more experienced and someone no longer a newbie but not yet 'seasoned' would be a good idea.

I was horribly frustrated by poly/mono groups that either villainized the mono or gave unconditional support to stumbling polys. I too made mistakes but when there is cheating in a mono relationship that leads to poly there are issues of trust that NEED to be addressed. While I don't always agree with all the advice given here and may think posts at times unduly harsh I will say I can always count on at least one perso (usually more) to be frank enough to point out that yes, you made a mistake, now own up because YOU are not the victim here.

I know I am sadly in the minority. As DH and I have discussed both liking the same types of women and him possibly dating as well, yet we have never discussed finding a woman for us to 'share' or to 'join our family'. It has always been that while it would be nice if there was someone interested in us both that we were both interested in it's an individual thing. We date who we want to separately. If we were ever in a triad it would be a surprise to us as well as it would have to happen naturally! We just don't see both falling for the same person or having a relationship with someone that would fit neatly I to our whole family like that. People are individuals. What are the chances that someone will live DH the same I do? Or me the same he does? Or the two of us loving one person the same? Hell, I love DH and DC different!

[zylya]

To my mind, there's two problems that cause the friction in that sort of topic (UH/OPP/whatever)

1. New members don't spend any time trying to get a feel for how the board works, even people who start their posts "long-time reader, first-time poster" often haven't actually read a lot of topics. If they had, they'd know the sort of response they're likely to get from the start.

2. Old (in terms of forum membership rather than age ;)) members forget that everyone is new once. While it might be the 10,000th time that you've seen the topic, it's the first for someone posting it. They think that because these new people "aren't doing poly right" that they need to be educated, and some people aren't shy about being completely scathing in their "teaching methods."

The obvious answer is for people to not be a dick when they're posting. Sometimes that doesn't work out though (guilty of it myself, for sure) so some sort of forum separation is a good idea, or simply just a stronger moderation force, that actively moderates posts that are of an unnecessarily harsh nature - the philosophy behind that being that it's ok to disagree, but still be at least respectful of the poster - if it crosses that line of respect, then it gets moderated. I'm not suggesting handing out bans left-right-and-centre btw, just that moderators should remove posts that go too far, and talk to posters if they're nearly crossing the line - the idea being that they're there to encourage positive discussions where people don't feel attacked, even if they're disagreeing with your point.

In some cases, people are oversensitive, in others people are legitimately attacking others, that's why having a fair, consistent and active moderation team is the best solution - then a line is drawn as to what is, and isn't, acceptable.

[Outsider]

I dunno, I'm a relatively new member here but lurked for quite a bit before that.

Every second day there seems to be a post looking for that magic bullet about how to speak to your SO about opening up the relationship, or how do I deal with jealousy (mine or theirs) etc. I don't find "do a tag search" is particularly off putting.

I do think it might be helpful if some of the more routine questions be placed somewhere on their own even as a sub topic or Sticky. How to tell your spouse, how to deal with jealousy etc.

[nycindie]

I don't find "do a tag search" is particularly off putting.

I do think it might be helpful if some of the more routine questions be placed somewhere on their own even as a sub topic or Sticky. How to tell your spouse, how to deal with jealousy etc.

Yeah, why are people getting bent out of shape when someone suggests searching the tags? Or doing an advanced search (because most people don't seem to bother tagging their threads anyway)? Sometimes a person doesn't have time to respond at length and just wants to point people to resources. I find it more annoying when a poster has obviously NOT searched before posting. Should the three or four years of good stuff here just fall to the wayside? If it isn't useful, it is often inspiring to read what others have gone through and struggled with, and often the solutions and suggestions in old threads would be very relevant to others today. My guess is that is why they are still there - some forums delete old, old threads and don't want old topics resurrected. But here it is encouraged. And every forum I visit or belong to will have a big bold "STOP!" at the top of the page and ask that people do a search before posting. But everyone wants to think they are unique and their problems are special.

In addition, there used to be a moderator here who liked to blend many related threads on recurring topics together into long "Master Threads" for easy referencing. She left last year and no one's doing that anymore, but I still wish it was because I think it is useful to have certain topics all in one place.

As for the stickies, we have quite a few, and we have the thread called "Links to Other Threads Worth Reading," but it seems like no one ever reads them (or the Guidelines) before posting their questions.

I'm not suggesting handing out bans left-right-and-centre btw, just that moderators should remove posts that go too far, and talk to posters if they're nearly crossing the line - the idea being that they're there to encourage positive discussions where people don't feel attacked, even if they're disagreeing with your point.The moderators do that already. They can only moderate the messages people post, they can't moderate how people take the words others write.

There's a difference between telling it straight, giving an opinion, and bullying, shaming, attacking, or whatever else people somehow misconstrue a message as being. I used to know someone who got upset and offended when her boss didn't say "please" whenever she asked her to do something. I just shook my head - people need more of a thick skin sometimes.

I recently came across this quote by Redpepper in another (ancient) thread, and I think it makes a lot of sense:
Um, this is a public forum, not a poly group. We all need to remember that we are on here to give our opinion and to do with information what we will. It's not about judging each other... if you are feeling judged anyone then I suggest you are investing too much emotion in this....

I gotta say that I recent that I put my time and energy into this forum and to be thought of as "judging" really frustrates me. If people don't want an opinion from me or anyone else on here, then I suggest you don't tell us your story.

We aren't here to be nice to each other always. We can get that from those close in our lives.... I said it before, it's kind of like driving in traffic. We have our opinion on how people should drive, but they never hear us when we are talking about it in our car as we watch them. On here, you hear us.... end of story.

So... just because a message seems harsh to someone doesn't mean they've been attacked or shamed or spoken down to. If they feel attacked when people are simply offering an opinion, I feel that perhaps they are being too sensitive. It is also very different when one reads something that, if it had been verbalized and heard in person, wouldn't have the same impact.

I don't think this thread was created about me and my posts, but I know some responders had me in mind when talking about posts they find problematic. I'm not interested in attacking, shaming, nor bullying (as if that were even possible) anyone, so I think it is ridiculous that my opinions are misunderstood to be any of those. As I have said a million times before, people should imagine what I write in my posts being said in a soft soothing voice, with a hand on your arm and said in the spirit of tough love, because the whole reason I'm here is to be part of this community and participate with concern and caring. The amount of people who PM me privately to thank me for my input, bluntness, and for asking them "tough" questions far outnumber those who get upset with my posts. And it's funny that the ones who are talking about "shaming" are the ones who wag their fingers and say "shame on you."

If you don't like my posts, do us both a favor and put me on your Ignore list. Please. Chances are you're already on mine.

At least some people get it:
Having lived in the South, Northeast, and Northwest, I can understand how nycindie feels. The simple fact is sometimes Nyc is opinionated, and she's often direct, and some people are biased in their reactions to that. When I moved to the west coast, I had to learn how to speak Northwestern because people out here assumed my bluntness was a sign of arrogance or assholery.

I for one appreciate Nyc's directness, but I also know her compassion caveat. New folks likely don't and probably haven't figured out that she asks tough questions because she cares.

Thanks for taking the time, Nyc.

[redpepper]

There ain't no changes happening fast here folks. Its been years of waiting for change on these here forums and no one is more frustrated than the mods. This is why I continue to tag and continue to point out the common tags. I'm sorry if this is in some way annoying or that anyone feels dumped on because they are new, but that is also the nature of the game. Most of us have been through the same things ourselves and are eager to pass on common misunderstandingsa and mistakes. If no one disagreed or challenged there would be no reasonm to write and therefore, no forum.

We have been over the dividing the forum into sections thing before, but really, we aren't interested in segregating people that way because of experience. Most of the time people are dating a mix of people new and old to poly. Experience is not something that is held in value when it comes to discussion I don't think. We can all learn from each other. That being said, reviews like this are valuable.

My suggestion? Take it all with a grain of salt, learn from what others say and realize that sometimes its useful to remember no one knows the whole story, everything is a generalisation and most of the time people leave here and life goes on one way or another just as its suppose to. I can't tell you how many people have come and gone from here and have passed on stories that have not been repeated on this forum. If you don't want people to respond as they see fit on a public forum, don't write here. We try and stay on top of any kind of negative stuff, but really, sometimes its a matter of letting go of your idea of what reality is. Chances are someone is going to have a completely different opinion and express that. Chances are that you are making some assumptions about what is really going on for someone, so drop the assumption and stay open to wondering where they are coming from. Ask questions, empathize.

As to the blogs section? No one should be responding negatively there, its not a place to debate someone's story. Please let us know if that is happening so people can be reminded. Please remind each other of that also. We all make the culture here. We are all in it together.

Those are some thoughts on the fly for now. It might be helpful to be more specific about complaints though. Its hard to address issues that are general. I welcome PM's if that works better and of course all open and honest communication :D ;) (I might move this to a different forum on site usage, just in case you are looking for it).

[ThatGirlInGray]

Yeah, why are people getting bent out of shape when someone suggests searching the tags? Because when a recommendation for a tag search is pretty much the entirety of the response (imo) it comes off as dismissive or at the very least rushed. Kind of like saying, "Do your own research and don't bother me." Like if you asked a librarian for help locating an item and all he/she did was point you towards the catalog computer. Not going to make you feel like asking for help again, is it? I find it more annoying when a poster has obviously NOT searched before posting. I can agree with you here, but I still maintain recommending a tag search can be part of a more thoughtful, complete response. But everyone wants to think they are unique and their problems are special. THIS. This is absolutely true, and when someone posts in the midst of a crisis or otherwise emotional time, is that really the time to point out that they maybe are not unique and special? Hardly helpful, to my mind, unless you're doing it in an, "It's okay, you're not alone. Others have made it through this and you will too!" kind of way.

So... just because a message seems harsh to someone doesn't mean they've been attacked or shamed or spoken down to. If they feel attacked when people are simply offering an opinion, I feel that perhaps they are being too sensitive. It is also very different when one reads something that, if it had been verbalized and heard in person, wouldn't have the same impact. If it's only one or two people who have a problem with what someone wrote, then you have a point. A thicker skin might be necessary, or it could be a misunderstanding about tone or intent. But when it's more than a few people, I think the responsibility falls to the writer to really look at what they wrote and what others might be taking issue with.

I don't think this thread was created about me and my posts, but I know some responders had me in mind when talking about posts they find problematic. I'm not interested in attacking, shaming, nor bullying (as if that were even possible) anyone, so I think it is ridiculous that my opinions are misunderstood to be any of those. You can think it's ridiculous all you want, but if it keeps happening over and over then you're like the person in a relationship who won't try to work on a problem because they don't see a problem. Your point of view regarding your posts is not the only one that matters. If you really think it is, then you're not writing to help people at all, you're only writing as a form of intellectual masturbation. (Also, you don't think cyber-bullying is possible? Are you freaking kidding me??) As I have said a million times before, people should imagine what I write in my posts being said in a soft soothing voice, with a hand on your arm and said in the spirit of tough love, because the whole reason I'm here is to be part of this community and participate with concern and caring. I don't remember seeing in the last 4+ months, so I guess I missed some of those million times. Perhaps you should put it or something similar at the start of those "tough love" posts, because newbies especially are mostly likely not going to automatically read your responses that way. The amount of people who PM me privately to thank me for my input, bluntness, and for asking them "tough" questions far outnumber those who get upset with my posts. Good, I'm glad for them. Why not try to make that number even higher? And it's funny that the ones who are talking about "shaming" are the ones who wag their fingers and say "shame on you." Since that's to me, I'll tell you why it's not funny: I didn't say it to an emotionally distraught person over a situation I'm hearing about second- or third-hand. I said it to someone who has shown plenty of times that she can post without that harshness and with compassion even as she asks the tough questions, about a situation I witnessed first-hand. You weren't posting asking for help, which makes a huge difference in the type of response.

If you don't like my posts, do us both a favor and put me on your Ignore list. Please. Chances are you're already on mine. Nope. You can put me on yours, but I'm not going to ignore you, if only so when you are overly harsh or one-sided in a thread I read, I can make the choice to be a dissenting voice giving another perspective if I want to.

[nycindie]

All I can say is it must be a nice view from up there on that horse of yours.

To each his or her own!

[AnnabelMore]

I just want to say thank you to everyone who's responded so far! There have been many threads on many topics that led me to thinking about all this, and getting many perspectives in return is exactly what I was hoping for.

The point about using PM to convey concern rather than posting negative reactions on a blog is a great one.

[BaggagePatrol]

ThatGirl: Remind me to not get in a back-alley fight with you..... ever. I agree, completely with your points.

RP: Being a newer member of the forum gives me a different perspective on things, I think. For me, it's easier for those with some grounding and experience to "take things with a grain of salt." I know it's becoming easier for me already! However, I think it's more challenging for those floundering and trapped in a place way out of their depth who are here (desperately) hoping to find help from people with wisdom and experience. From a purely philosophical perspective, I can see your point, but when it comes down to needing serious advice to help ground you, I don't think it's the right time to be "letting go of ideas of what your reality is." Often people come here in an extremely vulnerable state, lost, confused and needing guidance. To me, being harsh, brushing them off, or being impatient doesn't seem like the best approach! That being said, you seriously know your stuff, and I respect your wisdom in regards to poly, this forum, and how it is run. You are living proof that poly works, and works well.

NYCyndie: I have no doubts that you're receiving positive feedback. With up to eight postings a day (totaling a mind-boggling 4,464 posts over the past 18 months), you're bound to hear back from a certain percentage of people who you have assisted with your research and ideas. I know that when I was feeling particularly judged and attacked by you (in my blog, no less) I read your blog, and quickly came to the realization that you were a woman operating largely from a research/opinion perspective, who had very little actual poly relationship experience. I would like to suggest that you treat people with a little more gentleness and consciousness. When people respond to your replies with phrases like "I came here for advice on my feelings from people I thought would have a better sense of if what I was feeling was normal for this type of venture or not. I think what I've gotten is a clear picture of I don't belong here." I think it may be time to re-evaluate your communication style.

Annabel: This thread has been super interesting. Thank you for being so thoughtful as to have started it - speaks volumes of your character. It would seem that there is a growing group that is committed to standing up to ensure that newbies are treated with respect and care. Shoot, I wonder if there should be a "welcoming committee" with a "forum orientation" that is presented to people in the introductions area! Might be an idea....

[northhome]

quickly came to the realization that you were a woman operating largely from a research/opinion perspective, who had very little actual poly relationship experience.

I co-wrote a book a couple of years ago on the subject of non-traditional relationships. During the research phase I spoke with hundreds of people. Although my sample was not large enough to be statistically accurate, I feel confident in saying that for every person/couple actually in a polyamorous relationship there are at least four considering it. This of course will vary greatly in different cultures and societies. My sample were university educated, western europeans.

What was striking to me was that the people who were considering poly had much stronger dogmatic views across the board than those with actual experience. It almost seems as if people need to create a strong rational argument to help them take the leap to explore what, ultimately, can be quite a risky undertaking. Once they've gone through the first year or so I noticed a distinct mellowing in very many people.

Here's a thought: what if everyone tagged their posts in such a way that one could see if what they were saying was based on real experience versus conjecture and ideas? Not that there is anything wrong with ideas, but personally I find that narratives based on real experience are more useful when it comes to navigating the poly maze.

(Disclosure: I'm in a triad for 3 years now. We think it works - we're happy which I guess is what really counts)

[JaneQSmythe]

Here's a thought: what if everyone tagged their posts in such a way that one could see if what they were saying was based on real experience versus conjecture and ideas?

Some of us include this info in our sig lines. People also have the option of clicking through to profile pages and there is a designated sticky thread "Personal Summaries" in the Introductions forum specifically for people to look up other posters situations/experience levels: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=649

Personally, if I find a post helpful I don't really care if it came from an idea or someone's experience (although I can't seem to help but post a bit of my story to illustrate my points in most of my posts :p)

JaneQ

[AnnabelMore]

"When people respond to your replies with phrases like "I came here for advice on my feelings from people I thought would have a better sense of if what I was feeling was normal for this type of venture or not. I think what I've gotten is a clear picture of I don't belong here." I think it may be time to re-evaluate your communication style."

To be fair, the OP on that thread faced an overwhelmingly negative response, from many posters, of which NYC was only one. And, in fact, that same OP came back to the thread and apologized for what she called her "small tantrum". NYC then asked her some further questions, to which she responded.

Was the overall tone on that thread more harsh than warranted? I think so, personally. It was definitely firmly in my mind when I posted this, and I think that what that same OP went on to say about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar is one of the central questions I was getting at when I started this -- that's one approach, bluntness is another. So let's discuss the ideas, rather than the validity of any one individual's advice-giving. I do think, for the record, that while personal experience is important, reading many many people's stories and sifting out the lessons can also give you important perspective.

[AnnabelMore]

Northhome, what's the name of your book?

[northhome]

Love Unlimited: The Joys and Challenges of Open Relationships (it's available on Amazon, also as an e-book).

My co-author is the Dutch polyamory counsellor Leonie Linssen. She's one of the foremost professionals in the Netherlands that deals with 'non-traditional' relationships.

[nycindie]

NYCyndie: I have no doubts that you're receiving positive feedback. With up to eight postings a day (totaling a mind-boggling 4,464 posts over the past 18 months), you're bound to hear back from a certain percentage of people who you have assisted with your research and ideas. I know that when I was feeling particularly judged and attacked by you (in my blog, no less) I read your blog, and quickly came to the realization that you were a woman operating largely from a research/opinion perspective, who had very little actual poly relationship experience. I would like to suggest that you treat people with a little more gentleness and consciousness. When people respond to your replies with phrases like "I came here for advice on my feelings from people I thought would have a better sense of if what I was feeling was normal for this type of venture or not. I think what I've gotten is a clear picture of I don't belong here." I think it may be time to re-evaluate your communication style.
I do recall that I had written a few posts before realizing your thread was in the Blogs section, because I came to it via the "New Posts" link. I often don't look at the forum heading right away. And I believe I apologized. If not, I am sorry. I never have the goal of attacking anyone, so it is unfortunate you felt that way.

My style is my style, though. I won't change it just to please anyone who lets themselves get miffed by it. And there is consciousness in every post I write. Just because you don't like it, don't presume that I have no awareness of what I'm doing. Jeez, what a laugh. And gentleness isn't always the best way to get a point across. If people get it, they get it. If they don't, they don't. I'm not here to coddle anyone.

And I don't know why you say I am only doing research and have very little poly experience. That is the second time, I believe, that you've specifcally said I don't have much poly experience, as if it were a put-down or like you're trying to expose me, LOL. I never said I am an expert at poly, I just use my common sense and relationship experience, and I've had a lot of relationships. I've dabbled in lots of different things that I draw on when I share here - is that a crime? I certainly wouldn't call the things I've lived "research." Sure, it's only been two years since my ex and I split and I embraced poly, but that doesn't negate my opinions as a rational human being who has had lots and lots of relationships both good and bad. And I don't write here about every guy I see, just the most significant ones. I take part in the poly community here when I can, have poly friends in real life, and practice polyamory as a solo. My feedback is based on my experience in relationships, not research. And if I don't know something, I admit it. I don't pretend to be something I'm not.

The basic qualities needed for good relationships apply to both poly and mono, and there are plenty of people here who are not poly who give their opinions just like I do. You don't really need to know all that much about poly to recognize what makes a good relationship possible or what's going to fuck things up. So, who cares if I have ever been in a poly relationship or not? My opinions are mine and that's what this forum is for. We could all be impostors and hermits living in basements in front of our computers, spinning tales. How would you know? (well, some of us have met each other IRL) We've got people who are virgins or asexuals coming here and discussing sex, and we've got monos and inexperienced newbies discussing poly. This forum is like our Village Green. Take what you like and leave the rest. Call me the village idiot if you want -- I don't care one bit what you think of me. You don't know anything about me, really. I'm very careful what I reveal here and my blog is such a tiny glimpse. Have a beautiful day!

[northhome]

The basic qualities needed for good relationships apply to both poly and mono

This is very true in my experience. BTW a good strategy for 'unicorn hunters' is to make sure your own existing relationship is in great shape. If you treat each other in a way that a potential new partner sees your interactions and thinks 'wow, I'd like to be treated that way', well you might just increase your chances. That's sort of what happened to us.

However I should add that we weren't looking for a unicorn, it just kind of happened. Also, the reverse is true. A third person can provide accurate and possibly uncomfortable reflections on what might not be working so well in your relationship. This too is part of our own dynamic. Helps the growing process.

[nycindie]

To be fair, the OP on that thread faced an overwhelmingly negative response, from many posters, of which NYC was only one. And, in fact, that same OP came back to the thread and apologized for what she called her "small tantrum". NYC then asked her some further questions, to which she responded.Thank you. And although the OP did not like how we were perceiving her situation, she was conversing with me, km34, andSNeacail without expressing an objection to how we were expressing ourselves. She didn't like what we were saying but didn't have a problem with us saying it until other people chimed in to protest. In fact, I quite appreciated her willingness to "hear" us before that point, and we all would have gotten more information and gained more from the conversation if there were less posts reprimanding people for how they communicated. Many times people have a distinct reaction in the beginning of a thread and turn it around completely by the end of it, given the chance.

So let's discuss the ideas, rather than the validity of any one individual's advice-giving. I do think, for the record, that while personal experience is important, reading many many people's stories and sifting out the lessons can also give you important perspective.Thanks for this. I will stop being defensive. I guess I just feel misunderstood and I'm under a huge amount of stress. But really, this forum is a distraction for me right now so I don't go and jump off a bridge or something. I wish I were kidding.

[nycindie]

This is very true in my experience. BTW a good strategy for 'unicorn hunters' is...Was your post directed to me? 'Cause I'm not a unicorn hunter. Or was it just your first sentence that was a response to my post?

[northhome]

Was your post directed to me?

No, not at all. It was referring to the OP. But I do feel that your observation concerning relationship skills was, in general, correct.

[km34]

I've stayed out of this whole thing so far, because I really don't have much to say. (So why am I saying anything now? Just because :p)

I think having people who approach things differently on this board is a great thing. It prepares people for the various reactions they are going to have when they go talk about anything poly-related in the real world. Some people are going to be perceived as harsh, some as overly understanding/coddling, some as completely ignorant of any issues that may arise. People are different, this forum reflects that through the way we all interact.

When I say things that sound harsh, I do feel kind of bad (Midwest guilt sticking with me, I guess), but if I think it is what the person needs to read, I'll say it anyway. Even if I misunderstand something, hopefully that poster can realize WHY they were misunderstood and refine his/her/their own ability to portray the situation accurately. Is it my fault if a few facets were glossed over and I got this overwhelming feeling that someone is trying to take advantage of someone else? No. Is it my fault if someone makes a situation sound so perfect so I say congrats or some other supportive statement when in reality there is some heinous treatment of people going on? No.

It's all about what we are presented with and how we interpret that. People can take or leave the advice we give and comments we make, but overall I think even the posts that are taken as attacking can be helpful in the long run - as long as they really are trying to give some sort of insight and aren't just straight up attacks.

[redpepper]

Did I miss something orrrrr? I don't know what the thread is you are all referring to. Sometimes the discussion is about general communication of this forum and sometimes it seems to be against how nycindie communicated on a thread. Could someone clarify for me please?

[redpepper]

RP: Being a newer member of the forum gives me a different perspective on things, I think. For me, it's easier for those with some grounding and experience to "take things with a grain of salt." I know it's becoming easier for me already! However, I think it's more challenging for those floundering and trapped in a place way out of their depth who are here (desperately) hoping to find help from people with wisdom and experience. From a purely philosophical perspective, I can see your point, but when it comes down to needing serious advice to help ground you, I don't think it's the right time to be "letting go of ideas of what your reality is." Often people come here in an extremely vulnerable state, lost, confused and needing guidance. To me, being harsh, brushing them off, or being impatient doesn't seem like the best approach! That being said, you seriously know your stuff, and I respect your wisdom in regards to poly, this forum, and how it is run. You are living proof that poly works, and works well."In need of grounding" is a good way to put it. I said "take it with a grain of salt" and "letting go of your idea of what reality is" as a goal. Not a do this or I'm going to yell at you to get a grip.

When someone writes here they should not expect to always get the exact piece of advice that makes it all better. They get a deluge sometimes of differing opinions and different approaches to expressing that approach. This a place of written word and I think it naïve that they would think that all their needs would be met here. I don't know, maybe that's old fashioned? :p That being said, we've grown a culture here of patience, cooperation and kind support. Ya, its a total drag to repeat the same things over and over, but I would hope that if someone is at their wits end trying to hold it together while posting because they can't believe yet another unicorn hunter is asking why they should try a new approach, or whatever, then I suggest they take a break, take a breath and come back later. Maybe vent it out in a post they don't send.

This forum has seen many changes in three years. I can tell you we are not discussing the stuff we did back then. Things do change with time. We had barely any posts about unicorn hunting at the beginning now we do. I suspect it will change again as people become more and more aware of poly theory. Setting an example of being grounded and suggesting that others find the same place through working slowly through their own issues is probably the best anyone can suggest. Most of the stuff people go through is their own emotions. Sure, the issues may be similar, but they are the ones who have to find their own grounding. I think it always helps to let them know that they can find grounding if they get through the emotional content they are experiencing.

I agree, being harsh, brushing them off and being impatient is not the way, but really, we are all human and we all are grumpy sometimes and there is always someone on a thread that is posting from a different place than others. Its life. Someone in crisis is not always going to get the response of "oh no! You're in crisis! We better all rally round and give you what you want to make it all go away!" Sometimes they get, "oh, geez, that's tough, here what I think and what happened to me. Maybe it will help you sort it out" I find the latter to be far more helpful as it give the person their power back to make their own choices.

So, I suggest, ignoring the harsh with understanding and empathy and embrace the positive, supportive kindness. It is good to talk about this now and then (any of you remember Neon? :D). There are many that have left here feeling supported and cared for I am not concerned that some don't. Its too bad and I like to think that often we do our best, but this place is not for everyone. That's a proven fact. We make people work on their shit. :D that to me is how it should be.

[Emm]

Did I miss something orrrrr? I don't know what the thread is you are all referring to. I think it's mostly this one: Teacher & Protector (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23857).

[nycindie]

Often people come here in an extremely vulnerable state, lost, confused and needing guidance.Frankly, the only things anyone should expect from anonymous voices on the internet are opinions. Even in the most close-knit online communities I belong to, it's pretty much understood that all you can really count on getting is another viewpoint. And seeing what other viewpoints are out there can be very valuable. Not everyone is going to pat people on the head and say, "there, there, everything will be alright." There is nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion, even a harsh one. To an oyster, a grain of sand is an irritation, but it eventually becomes a pearl.

Sure, friendships can develop online, and sometimes people actually meet some other members face-to-face after a while. And yes, advice is given but people have to take responsibility for themselves and their own choices, and realize this isn't a place for free therapy. If someone needs guidance about life-altering decisions, they should seek out professionals, friends, family, clergy, etc., and not expect strangers on the internet to give serious advice, help ground them, or do anything for them.

[redpepper]

I think it's mostly this one: Teacher & Protector (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23857).Thank you Emm. :) its all a bit more clear now.

It seems to me that the OP on that thread was not in a place of distress so much as mulling over options for her and her family without considering what impact it would have on the woman her husband is in love with or to the future possibilities of that love interest panning out. She didn't seem to be overly distressed (publicly) by the comments. Mostly surprised and confused.

I can see why she'd by upset with the tags someone added. I can also see where it might of been helpful for some posters to consider how they said things before hitting "submit reply." There was a fair share of posts saying the same thing over and over in different ways though and again I want to point out that taking the posts that are ones that resonated and responding to those is really all that can be done as far as I can see. Eventually those that come across as overly judgmental and grumpy will stop posting or change their tone. I know this has been my reaction and response when people ignore me anyway. :D

[Arrowbound]

IMO if I came here and all I was getting were "Aww, s'okaaaaay" all the time in response to serious matters and questions it'd be no different than me explaining my relationship to some friends and having them give me the pity face. If I wanted that I would go to those people offline and experience it there.

Do I see people post things that come off as an attack, or really are attacks? Of course. I'd like to think we're all adult enough to tell whoever to chill the fuck out sometimes, depending on what was said. Maybe it's just because I've been posting on forums for almost a decade now, or that I lurk for a while and gauge things beforehand, but expecting changes in communicative styles because of past offenses is lofty at best.

Do what you can to ignore or confront. Plenty of us are outspoken and logical enough and have done so. For example I've never seen nycindie reluctant to apologize if she's upset anyone, so while you may not be on board with how she posts, anything malicious I'm not seeing.

[ThatGirlInGray]

Sometimes they get, "oh, geez, that's tough, here what I think and what happened to me. Maybe it will help you sort it out" I find the latter to be far more helpful as it give the person their power back to make their own choices. I completely agree. I don't have a problem with honesty or even bluntness. What I have a problem with, and what I think is difficult to get across without specific examples (though I take Annabel's point of discussing this in general terms) is when bluntness crosses a line to insulting. It may be I'm particularly sensitive to this because I personally work hard to curb my own bluntness and sarcasm. There is no tone in text so extra care should be taken to make sure that your words can be understood as intended regardless of tone. I find it interesting, though, and perhaps telling how many comments turned "being kind and compassionate" into coddling, "Aww, that's okay" and "everything will be alright". That isn't what I mean at all. Say what you feel needs to be said, absolutely, but there's a huge difference between, "I think you really need to take a look at your situation and the potential damage it could cause, because is this what I'm worried about:" and, "Oh my god, are you fucking kidding me?? You can't be serious. I feel sick just reading this." (Both of those "quotes" are made up by me, as examples. They are not actual quotes of anything.) The latter is about as helpful as coddling, which is not at all.

So, I suggest, ignoring the harsh with understanding and empathy and embrace the positive, supportive kindness. I will try. Perhaps instead of calling out specific posters in a thread I will notify the mods when I feel there's a post that's REALLY out of line. We make people work on their shit. :D that to me is how it should be. True dat!

[BaggagePatrol]

I completely agree. I don't have a problem with honesty or even bluntness. What I have a problem with..... is when bluntness crosses a line to insulting.


This is exactly where I'm coming from as well.

[redpepper]

I will try. Perhaps instead of calling out specific posters in a thread I will notify the mods when I feel there's a post that's REALLY out of line.I would really appreciate that. I have my own poly stuff going these days :D it could take a bit to sort and any direction to anything that looks out of the norm is always helpful. Thanks :)

[Arrowbound]

I completely agree. I don't have a problem with honesty or even bluntness. What I have a problem with, and what I think is difficult to get across without specific examples (though I take Annabel's point of discussing this in general terms) is when bluntness crosses a line to insulting.

That's subjective. I haven't seen every newb come here and then leave because they feel insulted; might apply to some, doesn't apply to all. It has happened, for sure, but I've also been witness to people being appreciative about a bare-bones approach, even with stinging words involved.

It may be I'm particularly sensitive to this because I personally work hard to curb my own bluntness and sarcasm. There is no tone in text so extra care should be taken to make sure that your words can be understood as intended regardless of tone.

But curbing isn't always an option for other people. You may feel it's problematic so you're doing something about it. Outside of that others will view it differently. And there is tone in text. Books are full of tone in text. Posts on a forum on the Internet are no different. No matter how you word something there will always be one other person who misinterprets what you're trying to get across. Period. Online and offline.

I find it interesting, though, and perhaps telling how many comments turned "being kind and compassionate" into coddling, "Aww, that's okay" and "everything will be alright". That isn't what I mean at all. Say what you feel needs to be said, absolutely, but there's a huge difference between, "I think you really need to take a look at your situation and the potential damage it could cause, because is this what I'm worried about:" and, "Oh my god, are you fucking kidding me?? You can't be serious. I feel sick just reading this." (Both of those "quotes" are made up by me, as examples. They are not actual quotes of anything.) The latter is about as helpful as coddling, which is not at all.

I won't debate the coddling thing, because I've seen it. Just like I've seen that last example.

[ThatGirlInGray]

That's subjective. I haven't seen every newb come here and then leave because they feel insulted; might apply to some, doesn't apply to all. It has happened, for sure, but I've also been witness to people being appreciative about a bare-bones approach, even with stinging words involved. Not sure what the point is here? Of course it doesn't happen every time. I wouldn't even say it happens most times. I think the current discussion is centered on what to do when it DOES happen (because it definitely happens!). Do we ignore it? Say something? Is it worth posters trying to make their posts less caustic? Or is it reasonable to say that this is the internet, posters old and new get what they get and if they don't like it, tough?
And there is tone in text. Books are full of tone in text. Posts on a forum on the Internet are no different. No matter how you word something there will always be one other person who misinterprets what you're trying to get across. Period. Online and offline. Okay, I will clarify. GOOD writers can often get an accurate tone across in text. Many, MANY posters on internet forums (this and others) are not good enough writers to accurately portray their intended tone in text. So again, the question as I see it is: How much do we each care about how our posts are perceived/received? Is it worth trying to be more careful about language or is a "Fuck it" attitude acceptable?
I won't debate the coddling thing, because I've seen it. Just like I've seen that last example. Debate...what? That it's not effective? Or that it happens? Of course it happens, I don't believe anyone ever said otherwise, so again I'm not sure what your point was.

[Arrowbound]

Not sure what the point is here? Of course it doesn't happen every time. I wouldn't even say it happens most times. I think the current discussion is centered on what to do when it DOES happen (because it definitely happens!). Do we ignore it? Say something? Is it worth posters trying to make their posts less caustic? Or is it reasonable to say that this is the internet, posters old and new get what they get and if they don't like it, tough?

I think it's unreasonable to expect people to change the way they post, especially when there are options available that allow you to pretty much forget they exist, if it's that bothersome. An outright insistence makes it seem like new posters are incapable of handling themselves. Feeling insulted for someone doesn't mean they feel the same way you do.


Okay, I will clarify. GOOD writers can often get an accurate tone across in text. Many, MANY posters on internet forums (this and others) are not good enough writers to accurately portray their intended tone in text. So again, the question as I see it is: How much do we each care about how our posts are perceived/received? Is it worth trying to be more careful about language or is a "Fuck it" attitude acceptable?

But that's assuming everyone has time to sit down and reread everything they type before hitting submit. It could be perceived that they don't care. Does that mean they don't? Not necessarily. Like I said before, things get misinterpreted all. the. time. It happens. We don't all like the way everyone says things. We also have, and exercise, the option of challenging posts. As long as that is in place anything about a "fuck it" attitude does not go unnoticed or unchecked.


Debate...what? That it's not effective? Or that it happens? Of course it happens, I don't believe anyone ever said otherwise, so again I'm not sure what your point was.

You mentioned people coming in the thread and turning "kind and compassionate" into "coddling" and my response to that is, there hasn't been any.

[ThatGirlInGray]

I think it's unreasonable to expect people to change the way they post So in redpepper's words, "We make people work on their shit" is only supposed to apply to things like shucking off the societal expectations of monogamy, jealousy, etc? We can't apply it to written communication? I'm trying to find a way to make that seem less snarky/sarcastic, but I'm at a loss. Is it really so unreasonable to ask that people try to think a little more about how their words might be perceived by others? We won't always be successful, of course, but I think the effort of trying and then recognizing when and why we are unsuccessful is important. An outright insistence makes it seem like new posters are incapable of handling themselves. Feeling insulted for someone doesn't mean they feel the same way you do. I think I stated before, just because someone CAN handle something on their own doesn't mean they should HAVE to. Generally people come here for support of some kind, and sometimes my support is given in the thread, sometimes by PM. You could turn your own point around to say that someone capable of handling themselves against someone I see as insulting is also capable of telling me to butt out! :D
But that's assuming everyone has time to sit down and reread everything they type before hitting submit. It could be perceived that they don't care. Does that mean they don't? Not necessarily. Like I said before, things get misinterpreted all. the. time. It happens. We don't all like the way everyone says things. We also have, and exercise, the option of challenging posts. As long as that is in place anything about a "fuck it" attitude does not go unnoticed or unchecked. Working backwards, isn't that what we're doing here? Aren't we challenging ideas based on things we've noticed? Or were you only talking about the "report this post" icon?

And yes, I assume that usually someone taking the time to read about and comment on the problems of a stranger can take the extra minute or two after the 10 or whatever they've already put in to double-check what they've written. Not everything it always going to be caught, because we're all human, but to me part of respecting others is putting that time in.

[redpepper]

So in redpepper's words, "We make people work on their shit" is only supposed to apply to things like shucking off the societal expectations of monogamy, jealousy, etc? We can't apply it to written communication? I'm trying to find a way to make that seem less snarky/sarcastic, but I'm at a loss. Is it really so unreasonable to ask that people try to think a little more about how their words might be perceived by others? We won't always be successful, of course, but I think the effort of trying and then recognizing when and why we are unsuccessful is important.
Wow you took that as snarky and sarcastic? Where I come from its just an expression that means we all come here to work on stuff going on for us and to be challenged on how we do things. Case in point, I'm being challenged by you ThatGirlInGray. Got it. I will look at how I say things. Especially on threads you are writing on. It sounds like some extra attention to these kinds of details is important to you.

Edit: actually, having read the response you gave about something I wrote about cheating on another thread... Please block my posts ThatGirlInGray. I think its just going to make you feel a lot better as I seem to annoy you no matter what I say. Thanks. :) Then we can all carry on.

[ThatGirlInGray]

Woah, hang on! Looks like it's time for me to apologize, and there's evidence right there that no matter how hard one tries to be clear, yes, misunderstandings can still happen!

Redpepper, I'm so sorry, I in NO way meant that YOUR words were snarky or sarcastic. I was quoting you because you're absolutely right. This IS a place that has high expectations of working on one's issues rather than ignoring them, and I agree with you that it definitely should be that way! I meant MY questions were snarky/sarcastic. This part: only supposed to apply to things like shucking off the societal expectations of monogamy, jealousy, etc? We can't apply it to written communication? I was trying to find a way to write that part so the questions came off as sincere, rather than sarcastic, but I guess I got it all muddled in my head this time! Again, my apologies, I didn't realize there was a way to read it as me thinking YOU were being sarcastic or snarky. Not at all. I don't remember EVER reading a post by you that came off as sarcastic or snarky.

Back to the overall thread, I think I couldn't mentally get around my own sarcastic tone this time because I feel it's rather ridiculous to claim that asking people to work on how they communicate is unreasonable, especially on a relationships forum where we espouse over and over how important communication is! Yes, it's the internet, and yes, we're mostly strangers to each other, but I don't see those as reasons to treat what we say to each other or how we say it as less important.

It's not going to be perfect and misunderstandings will certainly still occur, I just can't understand the people who seem to be against even trying. It doesn't make sense to me.

[ImaginaryIllusion]

This discussion has been going on a while now, and I don't see any reason to interrupt such discourse at all, but I wanted to take this opportunity to haul out some key portions of the user guidelines that I think apply to this discussion, and is worth all members new and old to read and consider from time to time.

•Welcome

These discussion boards were founded to provide space for all manner of discussion about polyamory, a form of ethical non-monogamy. The intent is to provide a venue to speak frankly about the personal issues and relationship issues involved in balancing multiple relationships at one time. The founder and moderation staff hope that site members can find kindred souls to offer support and insight in a civil and possibly friendly, caring fashion, though the latter is certainly not a given when considering the nature of the Internet.

•Why We’re Here

Our site founder, Olivier, founded the boards for the purpose of creating an environment where people can find help, respect, and support for their situations. Polyamory.com is intended to be an informative place, where poly folk can come for friendly discussion, support from peers, and a bit of TLC. That’s not to say that everybody found on the boards will be the sort of person you’d share a coffee with to chat, nor that the conversations will always be warm and friendly; we only work to ensure that discussions remain civil.

•What’s Expected and Allowed

First and foremost, we expect members to respect these guidelines. We have rules in place to ensure that we can offer our members a place to discuss issues that is free from ..., overwrought drama, and generally boorish behavior. This forum is a home of sorts, and where we wouldn't allow salesmen to work our holiday parties nor drunken jackasses to abuse other dinner guests, we won't allow that sort of thing here, either.



•Communicate

We want to point out that not everybody involved will communicate in the same fashion. There are bound to be sparks flying at times, as people with different discussion styles come in conflict. We don’t mind that. We also expect folks who engage in those discussions to exhibit a good deal of restraint and work out the issues through continued communication—you know, that communication thing that is so important to relationships!

Should you ever wonder if somebody’s trying to insult you or demean you or otherwise deliberately hurt your feelings, we’d like you to ask for clarification. Indeed, if you’re feeling put out by another member, instead of making a mess on the boards, take it to private messaging and ask what’s going on. We imagine a majority of perceived personal slights could be laid to rest through simply asking what’s going on in a PM.


Something that people may want to consider in using to gauge themselves... how do you behave when you have dinner guests over at your place... and how might that differ from how you would treat other dinner guests when at a friend's house?

That is all.

[redpepper]

That is all.
Yer awesome. That is all. :D

ThatGirlInGray: no worries. :)

As an add though, seriously, having been through the hate before on line I would much rather just people cut me out of their lives. In real life I would never revert to that immediately, but on line I find that long drawn out flaming and trying to make sense of stuff and trying to patch things is exhausting. Its just not worth it any more. Most of the time I read stuff now, don't take it at all seriously and move on.

I didn't take what you said seriously TGIG. I was trying to be more helpful than anything else. I would hate anyone to get to a point of being distracted by annoyance and would give the same advice to them also.

[nycindie]

Is it really so unreasonable to ask that people try to think a little more about how their words might be perceived by others?

...I feel it's rather ridiculous to claim that asking people to work on how they communicate is unreasonable, especially on a relationships forum where we espouse over and over how important communication is! Yes, it's the internet, and yes, we're mostly strangers to each other, but I don't see those as reasons to treat what we say to each other or how we say it as less important.

It's not going to be perfect and misunderstandings will certainly still occur, I just can't understand the people who seem to be against even trying. It doesn't make sense to me.

I think it is rather arrogant to assume that the authors of the posts you find offensive didn't think about what they were writing, or that they do not consider the impact of their words as important. Are you appointing yourself the arbiter of kind and helpful posts now? Just because you and 100 other people don't like what was written nor how it was written, does not mean it was thoughtlessly, carelessly, or vindictively written. Yes, believe it or not, oftentimes a great deal of thought and consideration goes into posts that could possibly be received as harsh. It seems you are trying to apply your subjective taste onto other people, as if your preferences are the standards we should all use.

You remind me of the people that get bent out of shape if someone bumps into or brushes up against them in a crowded subway car. Hello? It's the subway, if you have a problem with crowds and having strangers in close proximity, take another means of transportation or get in a less crowded car. But bitching and moaning about it isn't going to change the fact that we're all jammed in here like sardines and have to be in close contact with strangers. In other words, it takes all kinds of people to make up a community and sometimes there are people you like and others you avoid and ignore. This is a public forum on the internet and, for the most part, people stay within the guidelines and if they do not, the Moderators step in. Perhaps you are being unrealistic in your expectations and wanting people to post the way you think they should.

[northhome]

Perhaps you are being unrealistic in your expectations and wanting people to post the way you think they should.

I suppose it all depends on how one defines civil. In London I experience civility when someone is polite to me. In NY I'm happy when they don't shoot me.

(Just kidding!!)

Indeed, behavioural expectations can be at the root of many a misunderstanding.

[Arrowbound]

I suppose it all depends on how one defines civil. In London I experience civility when someone is polite to me. In NY I'm happy when they don't shoot me.

(Just kidding!!)

Indeed, behavioural expectations can be at the root of many a misunderstanding.

That's some of what I was getting at: your own personal expectations for how you should respond and be perceived doesn't apply to other people. It only applies to you.

[kdt26417]

Good communication will probably always be the most challenging, and the most necessary, part of any relationship, be it a mere online relationship with a stranger you've never met, or a real-life relationship with a poly partner. Perfect communication would probably take me millions of years to learn, assuming it could ever be perfect. I am conscious of my own lack of know-how, and try to improve how I communicate with each new word I say or write. Sometimes I succeed in these improvements, sometimes not.

As someone with an admittedly thin skin, I tend to be very self-conscious about what kind of impact my words might have on others. If I had a thick skin, I might not be so sympathetic towards thin-skinned people. But my handicap forces me to be as sensitive towards others as possible. And yet I still often fail, as I haven't mastered the ability to make myself clearly understood. (Or perhaps some would say my clarity is redundant.)

I come from a relatively gentle forum, Polyamory Percolations (http://www.polyamoryonline.org/smf/), which has a fairly tight set of user guidelines (http://polyamoryonline.org/smf/index.php?topic=394.msg2140#msg2140). I knew, when I read the Polyamory.com User Guidelines (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16420#post16420), that I was in for a rougher ride if I started posting here (and reading the responses to my posts). I took that into account when I started posting. When I got the "tough love" treatment (from several posters), I accepted it. I knew the risks I had taken. I accepted the distress I experienced as part of the experience I'd asked for. I was responsible for whatever effect it had on me. So I got over it and moved on (pretty much).

But since forthright-versus-solicitous is being debated with respect to what kind of locution is appropriate for which threads, I'll cast my vote for a more gentle tone (and choice of words) in threads in general (not singling out any thread in particular, as some threads arguably do merit some tough talk). It always strikes me as sad that the physical distance across internet forums separates us psychologically as well. If we could just get along, I often say to myself.

I know the User Guidelines (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16420#post16420) don't support my position, but we shouldn't have to be "forced to be nice" anyway. It's something that should come from the heart.

I believe we're all beginners when it comes to communication. We can all learn to do better. When I post, even if it's about something mundane I've "heard a thousand times," I try to remember that what I am posting is going to be out there for all the world to see. No matter what the Guidelines say, I want to contribute to a gentler online community. It's just my personal opinion, my personal goal, and I wouldn't presume to act as if I have some right to tell others what to do. If you're posting within the Guidelines, you're in the clear.

But here are the quotes that really shined for me when I read this thread:

"I have to remind myself that attacking people in no way whatsoever makes them more likely to hear you."
-- AnnabelMore, Post #1 (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136840#post136840)

"It can be challenging to hear 'negative' feedback even in a PM, but it can become almost impossible if three or four (or more) people chime in and newbies end up feeling totally dominated in a public forum. The words shaming, bullying and attacking come to mind, and none of those are very conducive to growth."
-- BaggagePatrol, Post #11 (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136990#post136990)

"To me encouragement and listening goes a lot farther than advice or assumption ever does ..."
-- BaggagePatrol, Post #11 (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136990#post136990)

"Say what you feel needs to be said, absolutely, but there's a huge difference between, 'I think you really need to take a look at your situation and the potential damage it could cause, because is this what I'm worried about:' and, 'Oh my god, are you fucking kidding me?? You can't be serious. I feel sick just reading this.' (Both of those 'quotes' are made up by me, as examples. They are not actual quotes of anything.) The latter is about as helpful as coddling, which is not at all."
-- ThatGirlInGray, Post #41 (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=137794#post137794)

"So in redpepper's words, 'We make people work on their shit' is only supposed to apply to things like shucking off the societal expectations of monogamy, jealousy, etc.? We can't apply it to written communication?"
-- ThatGirlInGray, Post #47 (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=137894#post137894)

"I feel it's rather ridiculous to claim that asking people to work on how they communicate is unreasonable, especially on a *relationships* forum where we espouse over and over how important communication is!"
-- ThatGirlInGray, Post #49 (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=137902#post137902)

In general, if you can think of two ways to say something, and both ways get the point across, then, consider using the softer way. Especially in the cases of beginners who are "getting hit from all sides." It's the question of what's not enough, or what's too much. I know it's a judgment call. I just ask people (any who might be willing to hear me on this) to err on the side of kindness, and to consider a wider range of possibilities in how things can be said -- and what kind of locution is really going to be the most effective/helpful. A little imagination can go a long way.

I guess that's all I have to say for now.

[ImaginaryIllusion]

I come from a relatively gentle forum, Polyamory Percolations (http://www.polyamoryonline.org/smf/), which has a fairly tight set of user guidelines (http://polyamoryonline.org/smf/index.php?topic=394.msg2140#msg2140). I knew, when I read the Polyamory.com User Guidelines (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16420#post16420), that I was in for a rougher ride if I started posting here (and reading the responses to my posts). I took that into account when I started posting. When I got the "tough love" treatment (from several posters), I accepted it. I knew the risks I had taken. I accepted the distress I experienced as part of the experience I'd asked for. I was responsible for whatever effect it had on me. So I got over it and moved on (pretty much).

But since forthright-versus-solicitous is being debated with respect to what kind of locution is appropriate for which threads, I'll cast my vote for a more gentle tone (and choice of words) in threads in general (not singling out any thread in particular, as some threads arguably do merit some tough talk). It always strikes me as sad that the physical distance across internet forums separates us psychologically as well. If we could just get along, I often say to myself.

I know the User Guidelines (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16420#post16420) don't support my position, but we shouldn't have to be "forced to be nice" anyway. It's something that should come from the heart.

I believe we're all beginners when it comes to communication. We can all learn to do better. When I post, even if it's about something mundane I've "heard a thousand times," I try to remember that what I am posting is going to be out there for all the world to see. No matter what the Guidelines say, I want to contribute to a gentler online community. It's just my personal opinion, my personal goal, and I wouldn't presume to act as if I have some right to tell others what to do. If you're posting within the Guidelines, you're in the clear.


I appreciate you sharing both your views and your experience here. Your vote for a kinder gentler forum is noted, and I both agree that it'd be great if people were nicer to each other, and like the fact that you take responsibility to handle the less kind responses that sometimes happen here. I don't think the guidelines wouldn't support your position, but they just don't enforce your preference.

This particular forum has always been a bit of a tradeoff. We want it to be a place for people to share their experiences and get advice, discuss issues etc. Our approach is generally hands off as much as possible and in my viewpoint that's been for a few key reasons.

We want people to be able to express themselves with minimal fear of censorship, even when what they have to say may be controversial. I used to enjoy a good debate at home IRL years ago, but it requires that people to respect each others opinions, but also take responsibility for the debates, discussions, and conflicts that may arise from their own actions.

But also, like real life, or the dinner party example, there aren't referee's sitting around to constantly police their guests to be nice and gentle with each other. So unless there's a serious issue where we get complaints, we leave it to members of this community to practice all the classic poly skills, as well as the more universal set of everyday interpersonal communications. Whether tough love, or gentle touchy feely, or something in between, each person comes from a place of what works for them.

The community is mostly self regulating on it's own...which is where threads like this are awesome. Not necessarily to badger each other into changing the way we conduct ourselves, but at least communicate about what affect certain communication styles have on others, and raise awareness of how our behavior can affect others, both where it helps, and where it can hinder. And that can apply equally to the kinder gentler styles, and the tough love styles.

It's not up to the mods to make everyone be kind, nor to insist that people aren't coddled, or to sooth them when they don't like the way a dose of reality was reflected to them. It's up to the members of the community to figure out how much of each is the right balance, both in general and for the individuals that we're trying to help. At the end of the day, regardless of the method being employed, I think everyone here has a sincere desire to help their fellows on this forum.

Ok...I'll stop interrupting again.

[opalescent]

I've noticed a trend in my own posting that I think probably holds true for many others. I used to post more. Now I was never a super poster but I would comment, offer suggestions, chat, create a few threads, etc.

I post much less now although I still read frequently. The reason is largely empathy fatigue. I read many posts and my first thought is often that the situation is so completely fucked up that nothing I say would be at all useful. I am amazed that so many other posters try to help those poor fucks. They are better people than I.

Another common reaction I have is about the folks who are rushing headlong, skipping really, right towards the cliff. Now some might slow or stop their heedless skipping but many, maybe most, won't. They will fling themselves right off that cliff regardless of what I post. So I see little point in posting the equivalent of 'Hey watch out for that cliff!' or 'Tough terrain ahead! Be prepared!' to people who won't listen. I'm a big believer in learning from other people fails - and have offered my own fails for their education - but I have very little respect or interest in people who have to learn everything the hard way. To me, that's just as stupid as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I have also tried to explain, politely, to posters why I perceive their posts as creepy. One poster in particular wanted to protect - by fucking - the young, hot women in his life who made poor choices in boyfriends. I didn't expect thank you's or a 'You're right!' because no one likes criticism. I was hoping for a dialogue. I got crickets.

Finally, there are the posters who make me morph into Dr. Phil. I hate Dr. Phil. He's an arrogant, rigidly mainstream, asshole. But there are posts that are so pathetic that I just want to tell them to grow the fuck up, develop a fucking backbone, figure out what you want - not what others want - and go make it happen. And then deal with the consequences without whining.

I realize these first thoughts are not helpful. So I don't post them. However, sometimes, maybe I should.

Here's the reason. I had the same repulsed reaction to the initial post in the 'Teacher and Protector' thread as NYCindie. I didn't post anything because I thought 'headed for the shitstorm - nothing to be done here'.

However, NYCindie did. And without that not so considerate post, we would not have learned that the potential situation in 'Teacher and Protector' is actually not as creepy as I first thought, and apparently the OP has learned some things and is now thinking about stuff she may not have thought about before. Also, without that thread, perhaps Annabelle may not have started this here very productive thread. Maybe NYCindie should have been more diplomatic. But maybe she would not have been heard by the OP or others if she had been more restrained.

I hung out at Poly Perc when I first started exploring. There are neat people there. However, there is also not much going on and I quickly found it boring. The more gentle guidelines are admirable and certainly there sould be a place for gentle poly criticism. But they can contribute to a dull forum, in my opinion. Now I don't want to turn this place into 4chan but I find the current balance generally positive.

And in my more evil moments, I wonder what NeonKas would have done!

[CielDuMatin]

I post much less now although I still read frequently. The reason is largely empathy fatigue. I read many posts and my first thought is often that the situation is so completely fucked up that nothing I say would be at all useful. I am amazed that so many other posters try to help those poor fucks. They are better people than I.Oh believe me, I have had more than my fair share of what I call "train-wreck burn-out" - the idea that there are only so many times that you can try to pull everything back from the precipice towards which you know it's heading. I tend to take a break from posting (and even reading), and then come back when I have the requisite energy and patience.

[nycindie]

Ok...I'll stop interrupting again.
You're not interrupting! It's very useful and illuminating to get the moderators' perspectives and input on a topic such as this.

The fact is, I don't think most people bother to read the guidelines or get a feel for the forum before posting and so they expect it to be like others to which they've belonged. And obviously, it is not.

Opalescent, you make some great points, too.
And in my more evil moments, I wonder what NeonKas would have done!
LOL, I often think of NeonKaos when the really weird and wild threads come up. Geez, if people think I'm harsh in my bluntness...

[northhome]

I have very little respect or interest in people who have to learn everything the hard way. To me, that's just as stupid as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
I wonder why people post at all if they're not interested in feedback, and potentially learning from that feedback. Do they perceive this forum as place that will simply provide unqualified positive support once they decide that they are 'poly'? "I've joined the club, please love me"....

I have also tried to explain, politely, to posters why I perceive their posts as creepy.
Creepy? Just out of curiosity, what exactly is a poster to do if their post is labeled as 'creepy' by you? Just because their behaviour/presentation style/situation is not in your comfort zone doesn't mean it's wrong, does it?

What does 'creepy' mean to you anyway? (but that might be off-topic. PM is fine)

But there are posts that are so pathetic that I just want to tell them to grow the fuck up, develop a fucking backbone, figure out what you want - not what others want - and go make it happen. And then deal with the consequences without whining.

Since this thread is about style / tone in posting, I'd be interested to know if you're, ahem, this straightforward in your real life interactions. If so, and if it works, then maybe there is nothing wrong with reflecting this in your postings. In many ways it might be easier for people to get some 'tough love' from a stranger far away :)

[feelyunicorn]

Yet another question is not just how, but *when* to give advice on these difficult topics.IMO, when you`re asked. For example, in the Poly Relationships section, ok, the whole point of that board is to give advice! Really? I thought it was to share different experiences.

[Tonberry]

IMO, when you`re asked. Really? I thought it was to share different experiences.

I assume sharing your experience would be more appropriate for the journal section.

[feelyunicorn]

I assume sharing your experience would be more appropriate for the journal section.I meant specific experiences and feelings related to the thread topic. Not in journal form.

[AnnabelMore]

IMO, when you`re asked.

Makes sense.

Really? I thought it was to share different experiences.

From the line above the link to the Poly Relationships board on the main forum page:
"Help Sharing & Advice for real life Polyamorous relationships, new or otherwise." So, it does say sharing, but it also stays with help and had advice in it. Seems pretty clear to me.

[feelyunicorn]

From the line above the link to the Poly Relationships board on the main forum page:
"Help Sharing & Advice for real life Polyamorous relationships, new or otherwise." So, it does say sharing, but it also stays with help and had advice in it. Seems pretty clear to me.Sure.

Personally, I try to give advice only when asked. Sometimes, I`d rather keep my feelings to myself even if asked. That is my attempted MO beyond board statements of purpose. I guess, were I to post in it, I would specifically ask what I was looking for. As I did in the one thread I posted here. I`m not in great danger of posting there! :eek:

On the other hand, I have come across posters who specifically ask for advice and then, either ignore it, take offense to it, or make the thread an unending list of rebuttals.

If those are the posters you`re concerned about, I feel your pain. :)

[redpepper]

It has been a balancing act for me over the years to find a place that is not teetered over the edge into flaming and a crash and burn forum and one that is so soft and mild mannered its boring. There have been several occasions where we have had to remove people from here for various reasons and we as the mods have discussed, at great length sometimes, what we should do. We have not always agreed, but we have always, I think, reflected the spirit of this forum in our conversations. That spirit is one of respectful consideration of our differences and styles of written communication. I intend to continue that as years go on. I don't expect that others will as there have been many that have come and gone, but I intend to rise about my compassion fatigue (over and over again, :p) and be the team player I signed up to be.
We want it to be a place for people to share their experiences and get advice, discuss issues etc. Our approach is generally hands off as much as possible and in my viewpoint that's been for a few key reasons.

We want people to be able to express themselves with minimal fear of censorship, even when what they have to say may be controversial. I used to enjoy a good debate at home IRL years ago, but it requires that people to respect each others opinions, but also take responsibility for the debates, discussions, and conflicts that may arise from their own actions.

But also, like real life, or the dinner party example, there aren't referee's sitting around to constantly police their guests to be nice and gentle with each other. So unless there's a serious issue where we get complaints, we leave it to members of this community to practice all the classic poly skills, as well as the more universal set of everyday interpersonal communications. Whether tough love, or gentle touchy feely, or something in between, each person comes from a place of what works for them.

The community is mostly self regulating on it's own...which is where threads like this are awesome. Not necessarily to badger each other into changing the way we conduct ourselves, but at least communicate about what affect certain communication styles have on others, and raise awareness of how our behavior can affect others, both where it helps, and where it can hinder. And that can apply equally to the kinder gentler styles, and the tough love styles.

It's not up to the mods to make everyone be kind, nor to insist that people aren't coddled, or to sooth them when they don't like the way a dose of reality was reflected to them. It's up to the members of the community to figure out how much of each is the right balance, both in general and for the individuals that we're trying to help. At the end of the day, regardless of the method being employed, I think everyone here has a sincere desire to help their fellows on this forum.

Imaginary speaks for me in this post. We have talked about what he has said many times. The only thing we may disagree on as mods is how much I post. :p I am willing to put myself out there as redpepper the regular on this forum as much as I am willing to be redpepper the mod of this forum. I hope I pull off both.

[Emm]

Just an observation:

I had, of course, heard about the Unicorn Hunter phenomena long before joining this forum, and I thought I had my head around it. Since being here, however, I'm astonished at how common it seems to be. The posts could all almost be cut 'n pastes of each other.

[AutumnalTone]

Yet another question is not just how, but *when* to give advice on these difficult topics. For example, in the Poly Relationships section, ok, the whole point of that board is to give advice! But if I'm reading someone's blog and I'm seeing things that I think are problematic...... do I mention it and risk starting a fraught discussion in what's supposed to be their safe space?

If you see something in a blog that you think is worth critical discussion, feel free to start a discussion on that topic on this board. A person's blog is protected from unwanted criticism; any particular scenario they blog about is not off-limits for discussion, provided it takes place elsewhere and doesn't invoke their specific tale.

So, no quoting of a blog post to illustrate a situation and no writing up a situation and referring to the blog post or using the names of that specific situation. File the serial numbers off, so to speak, and you can discuss it in general without tying any particular individuals to it.

[AutumnalTone]

Yes, believe it or not, oftentimes a great deal of thought and consideration goes into posts that could possibly be received as harsh.

Y'all have to trust me that I know how cold the water is in the buckets I sometimes empty on people. The shock of that water may be the thing that finally draws attention to something I believe somebody has missed when thinking about a situation.

[Chimera]

Y'all have to trust me that I know how cold the water is in the buckets I sometimes empty on people. The shock of that water may be the thing that finally draws attention to something I believe somebody has missed when thinking about a situation.

Yep.

I find this thread really interesting. I posted more last year, but have mostly been reading since, too busy with other issues.

I'm always wary when someone asserts that it's not necessarily the message, but the tone you deliver it in that's the problem. That critique is so often used against women in this sexist society. It pisses me off. I'm *not* saying that's how it's being used here by posters, but it does fit into a societal pattern of silencing women with strong opinions. Too much repression is allowed to go on in the name of politeness. I'd rather err on the side of taking caustic responses with a grain of salt, responding directly to the tone if I'm the OP and aggrieved, or if it's bad, telling a mod.

However, I generally agree that a more neutral tone can be helpful in getting one's message across the interwebs (I'm not big on "empathy", I prefer solidarity). But that's not always the case in every circumstance. We all come to these posts with our own experiences and perceptions. For example, I just read the thread that kicked off this discussion for the first time. As a survivor of sexual assault, my immediate gut reaction to the OP was "WTF, that's predatory and evil!" and I might have said as much.

I teach and have to deal with all sorts of communication styles in the classroom. Managing those in a way that allows people to hear each other without imposing a uniform code (aside from really offensive behavior) is my goal. I think it's a fairly similar situation here.

[LovingRadiance]

I've been off the boards for nearly a year. But, spent a great deal of time posting for a couple years prior to that.

As I understand it-there IS a place where common topics/helpful threads are located. Its the golden nuggets section. I know a few of my previous threads got moved there for that precise reason.

Also, there was much discussion a few years back over segregating the boards somewhat so that there were specific areas for "newbies" and such. Changes were made and it was sectioned out more than it had been previously. That was how we got the "general poly discussions", the blog section and the intro section. It didn't used to be segregated even that much.

I do think one thing that would help greatly is if there was a "catch all" guide (maybe there is, my computer auto logs me in these days) in intro-that said, "hey, this section is for this or that and there's useful guide info threads in the golden nuggets"...
but, it really comes down to dealing with the fact that people differ in their ideas of what is or isn't polite and in their typing abilities. Someone's difficulty typing can easily be misinterpreted as being caustic or "short" with someone else-when really it's just that they struggle to type out their thoughts.
;)