Is it a deal breaker to date someone who is cheating? [Archive]

mrspolyamorous

05-24-2012, 11:52 AM

I am a firm believer in there being more to the story as to why someone might seek a relationship discreetly outside their primary relationship. I wouldn't cheat on my partner. I have a very communicative and understanding relationship with my spouse. Unfortunately not everyone does. I don't feel compelled to force them to have an open relationship in order to have a relationship with me. It's not always possible.

Because I don't take issue with a potential partner being spoken for and me being a side show rather than the main show...it doesn't say that I have no boundaries or morals. It doesn't mean that person is all over town having sex with everyone else. This married person could be having sex with only one person. Some people haven't had sex in years in their own marriage for whatever reasons and truly want to fall in love with someone on the side in order to have a reason to feel like living again. Not all married people who have affairs are liars in other areas no more than someone who is lying in other areas is going to be prone to have affairs. One does not have a direct correlation with the other in my book or my experience.

Those who can't tell their spouse are not necessarily inherently dishonest people in every area of their lives is what I'm trying to say. Who is to say if you were their primary spouse they would even need a discreet relationship like this?

It doesn't mean they would do the same thing to you if given the opportunity. Chances are you are a different persona entirely from their primary partner. Which is the reason they feel comfortable sharing with you that they are married but not sharing with their wife/husband they are having a relationship with you.

I consider myself to be a "confidante with benefits" at that point. It is something so much more than friends with benefits but not quite the type of partner you can move in to your home if that is what you are looking for. It's a limited relationship for obvious reasons. Limited because of what they can't share with the other person. Not limited because they are bad people. They might have a lot of integrity to keep their family together. I can respect that. You just have to know what you want and what limitations are OK with you.

I hope this helps.

GreenMom

05-24-2012, 01:18 PM

Absolute deal breaker.

BaggagePatrol

05-24-2012, 02:27 PM

I'm big on total honesty and transparency in relationship, so for me cheating is a deal breaker. I have some pretty strong opinions about dishonesty within relationships in general - to me it's better to be open, transparent and single than in a relationship peppered with dishonesty of any kind. When everyone is their authentic selves in a relationship it allows you to choose whether that person and the things that they want are a good fit for you. A charade where they're doing a bait and switch to anyone involved robs others of their own independent right to either choose to be continue with the new information, not, or work on compromise. To me it's about respect.

For those that are on the "deal-breaker side" - is there any configuration in which you think that cheating is less abhorrent? Are there grey areas, or is it black and white? For example - a husband has a mistress because his wife is paraplegic or has advanced stage cancer. He loves her, doesn't want to hurt her, but also doesn't want to burden her with his sexual needs.

BrigidsDaughter

05-24-2012, 02:37 PM

I had a friend once tell me that all men cheat, it's in their genes. She just never wanted to find out about it.

Anneintherain

05-24-2012, 06:38 PM

For those that are on the "deal-breaker side" - is there any configuration in which you think that cheating is less abhorrent? Are there grey areas, or is it black and white? For example - a husband has a mistress because his wife is paraplegic or has advanced stage cancer. He loves her, doesn't want to hurt her, but also doesn't want to burden her with his sexual needs.

It's not cheating that's abhorrent so much - and I do think lots of people who cheat are perfectly decent people. It's the betrayal, realizing your partner has lied to your face & made a fool of you (personal perspective, I know that's not the intent when somebody cheats). I think there can be perfectly valid personal reasons for choosing to seek an outside partner (and perfectly understandable fears that keep people from being honest) but I'm not going to be that outside partner. A paraplegic has to figure out at some point that their spouse wants sex, and if the people involved can't have an honest discussion and make a painful if honest decision about how to handle their sex life, that's really unfortunate for the marriage as a whole. Cancer? Again, if somebody after an extended period of time without sex decides to take another partner, I sure hope they tried counseling first to deal with their feelings, as mingling genitals because of unhappiness probably never solved any problems. Just unhappy in your marriage? I wouldn't get together with a mono OR poly person who was running away from the problems in their relationship(s) looking for a shiny distraction from their woes instead of doing the hard work that keeps a relationship healthy. In a monogamous relationship, I think its a hypocritical jerk that chooses to have sex with somebody else, but doesn't give their partner the same choice, when for all they know their partner would LOVE to go seek their own happiness but wouldn't ever betray their spouse.

The main thing for me, which is even more important in the "partner with a debilitating disease" scenario - a person who thinks they are in a monogamous marriage doesn't deserve to be exposed to STIs they don't have - either HPV2 or new strains of HPV are the last thing a cancer patient needs for their body to deal with (let alone all the bacterial STIs). And since HPV and other STI's can be spread orally, I firmly believe my partner has no right to make decisions that can affect my health, without my informed consent. I can live with the risk that somebody I date passes an STI along to me from another partner, but I couldn't deal with the guilt of passing it on to a person who didn't know they were at risk. My ex-husband's cheating incident - out of all the factors, it was his obviousness/denial of the STI exposure risk and not telling me for months about it that was was the problem. He didn't use condoms, and therefore chose FOR me.

So yep, everybody has the right to do as they choose in this life, and I think most everybody has different shades of grey around sex, money, and following the law. My shades of grey are fuzzier around other things, but I'm not going to contribute to another person feeling the pain I felt when they realize the person they thought they could trust with their life and heart didn't trust them with honesty. No matter how much joy and pleasure their partner is getting out of it, I'm not going to decide things for that third party.

Yep sorry for the long drawn out response, I think in/fidelity & honesty is the one most important topic to me when it comes to relationships.

BaggagePatrol

05-24-2012, 07:22 PM

My mindset is identical to yours. It is very black and white to me as well.

lovefromgirl

05-24-2012, 07:47 PM

lovefromgirl

05-24-2012, 07:57 PM

I am a firm believer in there being more to the story as to why someone might seek a relationship discreetly outside their primary relationship.

And in the event that "discreet" turns into "whoops, got discovered", what do you do? Because you've just helped screw up the primary relationship.

Some people haven't had sex in years in their own marriage for whatever reasons and truly want to fall in love with someone on the side in order to have a reason to feel like living again.

So they go to counseling, have the poly talk, and deal from there. If not, they divorce.

They might have a lot of integrity to keep their family together. I can respect that.

No. No, there really isn't any integrity in doing that. Got a family? Be honest with them. Got kids? They can handle "Mommy and Daddy aren't in love anymore" better than "...and one of us has hurt the other in order to see if we could all still live under the same roof. Be grateful!"

Never going to accept "for the children/family" as an excuse, sorry. And I'm never going to forgive the kind of person who does this to a family, because of what it did to mine.

CielDuMatin

05-24-2012, 08:17 PM

If others wants to have as the foundation of their relationships a lie, then that's their call, I guess, but I won't.

A lot of people say that polyamory doesn't have a victim. Cheating does most definitely, whether the victim know it or not. Coming up with bizarre justifications is often very creative, but ultimately it's trying to find a justification for lying to a person with whom you entered a legal agreement, and made promises to.

If someone wants to have a relationship with me, and gives me the story that they aren't happy with their current spouse, then my reaction is "good, in order to have a relationship with me, you are going to need to either tell them about it, and I need to be able to verify that you did, or finish the relationship." I don't want to be caught up in the drama, thanks.

If getting an orgasm is more important to them than acting with integrity towards people who they are supposed to care about, then we have nothing in common.

GreenMom

05-24-2012, 09:16 PM

Re: the example in which someone cheats because their spouse has a debilitating disease and they need to fulfill their sexual needs... no, that doesn't make it okay to me at all. I think that would be pretty awful, to be going behind your spouse's back because you don't want to hurt them but just have to have sex with someone. Really? Ugh.

I've fought, and won, against cancer. If I had been married at that time and ever learned my husband went behind my back to get his "needs" fulfilled during such a horrible and difficult time our marriage would be over. Having gone through an illness like that I can't even imagine I'd have the desire to cheat, let alone much time for my sanctioned secondary relationship, if my husband was fighting against a disease, I'd be way too busy taking care of him and spending all the time with him I could in case he passed, I wouldn't be worried about how often I got laid.

The cheating on a disease-fighting spouse angle aside... I didn't really give any explanation on my answer earlier so here is a bit more.

The dishonesty/lying issues aside, I don't know how I could be in a relationship with someone but hidden from their spouse. Does that mean I could never go over to their house? I imagine scheduling dates would be difficult, since it would have to be in time that the spouse would be "unaware". It sounds like a logisitical nightmare. Toss back in the dishonesty angle, and I would never be able to enjoy any of those stolen moments. And, if this fictional person is willing to be dishonest to their other partner about me, what are they being dishonest about with me? Cause I'm not dumb enough to think I'm magically the only one who wouldn't be lied to or about or etc.

I know not all marriages are fantastic and some people are in really crummy situations but IMHO if you are making the decision to stay married, then there is NEVER any excuse, reason, justification or whatever you'd like to call it, to cheat.

km34

05-24-2012, 09:41 PM

I have a very black and white view of cheating. It's wrong. Period.

Is it understandable? Sometimes, but that doesn't change the fact that it is wrong. I'm not going to condemn people for life because they make an error in judgement (cheating vs. talking to their partner or leaving the relationship that don't meet their needs), but I am certainly not going to aid them in their endeavor.

And by aiding, I mean being involved with that person romantically/sexually, keeping their secret, or any other action that would help them along the way.

Overthinker

05-24-2012, 10:01 PM

It’s kind of ironic that I stumbled across this thread today. I don’t usually post but keep up by lurking a lot, but I haven’t even lurked for a couple of weeks. I’m having a really hard time right now because this exact topic destroyed my quad 13 days ago. We had been together for the past year and a half and were friends for about a year prior to that.

Like everyone else we had our ups and downs. My husband (M) and his girlfriend (N) really had it out at the beginning of the month because he confronted her on some things that weren’t adding up and he was concerned that she may be fooling around on the side. N has a long history of infidelity so M was always a little cautious with her. She swore up and down that she was a changed woman and asked him to give her the benefit of the doubt instead of falsely accusing her just because of her past. After their argument the status of their relationship was left unresolved because he needed to think about what he really wanted. In the mean time, N told her husband/my ex-boyfriend (H) what they had argued about and he got really upset wanting to know why my M was so worried about if she was being truthful or not and took M’s skepticism as jealously and it didn’t settle well.

After their argument we all had conversations that we needed to find the time for the four of us to sit down and hash things out and make clearer expectations for everyone and all the configurations. After that we would all make the decision if the quad would be able to continue and if not we would walk away from the sexual aspect of the relationship but would strive to remain close friends. Well because of work schedules and people being out of town we didn’t get a chance to all sit down and talk.

Thirteen days ago M and I at the last minute decided to attend a get together at H and N’s home in an effort to show them we were willing to work on things. Even though everyone felt uncomfortable at first we all settled in and M, H and N ended up talking about how everyone really wanted to work things out and they were all on board. Well the tables were turned abruptly when H accidentally saw a message pop up on N’s phone. Then a “friend” of theirs told him of some conversations she had been having with another man. Well throughout the course of the night, H along with M and I found out that she had been talking to several men, was being very suggestive and explicit in her texts and even had a picture of their “friend’s” penis on her phone. Now, she and the “friend” have cheated together on H in the past and her actions with him was M had been questioning all along.

I confronted her, even though she was not sober, and let’s just say it didn’t go over very well. I was furious because she betrayed the two men that I love and now my mind was racing on what she has possibly exposed the rest of us to. We all ended up confronting her at the same time and it became heated. M and I got H out of the house then we left as well but not before M told N what he thought of her actions and told her “goodbye”. We found H at our house when we got home. He obviously was upset and continued to find more things that she had done and ended up in a yelling match with N on the phone while he was there. You could imagine all the things he said about her and what he planned on doing in the morning.

Well H went home that night and the next morning M and I asked him to please not just sweep this under the rug this time, especially since she has cheated on him multiple times in the past. H told me that he didn’t really think anything physical happened (which is what he wants to believe) and that it wasn’t right what she was doing but asked me if it was worth losing everything over. I asked him to talk to me in person later that day.

I went over that morning and talked to N. I asked her why she would have to be messing around with other men when she has two wonderful men in her life that love her to death. She made tons of excuses and denied anything physical happening. She eventually told me that she just didn’t know why she does what she does. I explained to her that sometimes I have felt that my personal integrity has been jeopardized by being a friend to her because of her past and the fact that I have always had my suspicions that she had remained unfaithful. I apologized to her for acting irrationally the night. I then kissed her on the forehead, told her that I loved her and her family but I couldn’t be a part of her life because of what she does to people.

H has yet to talk to me. I know that is a specific directive from N. He has talked to M a couple of times and has told him that he agrees with N that I went about things wrongly when I confronted her that night. M had to remind H that I was hurt and was hurting because she had betrayed the two men that I loved and that N’s actions were what initiated everything. Through M and H’s conversations I have learned that they invited my kids to one of their kids’ birthday party but we, specifically me, are not welcome in their home or to be around their family. H says it is all N’s doing and he can’t control how she feels about me right now. They do not know if they can continue to be friends with us and we are starting to wonder the same thing.

So now I find that I am an absolute wreck. I tear up at the drop of a hat. Everything around me is reminding me of H and I hate it. I just want to scream. I am so mad that N’s lack of respect for the rest of us, especially for her husband, has caused all of us to fall apart. I feel robbed because everything with H, including having him as my friend, has been yanked from me and there is nothing I can do about it. I miss their kids. I hate that I can’t be there for the upcoming birthday knowing that they will ask about us. I hurt for my kids because they have lost their other “family” and I don’t know how to break it to them. And it makes me even madder when I know that N is blaming all of this on me and is not taking any responsibility for her own actions.

On the flip side M is struggling a little with how hard I am taking things but all and all is being very supportive and he is trying to be as understanding as he can. He is actually relieved that things are over. I have tried to explain to him that he has his anger from her betraying him to fall back on and sort of make him feel better about the decision he made to walk away from her. I didn’t get a chance to make a decision. It was made for me and I didn’t want it to be over even though we all agreed that if one person was done everyone would be done. It has also made M a little insecure and he thinks that I feel that he alone is not enough for me, which is not the case at all.

So back to the original post, is it a deal breaker? Absolutely. But as poly relationships are designed, the more people that are involved the more it just sucks.

Any advice on how to deal with the grief that I am going through would be greatly appreciated as well. Thanks to all that have actually read through all of that.

mrspolyamorous

05-24-2012, 10:18 PM

And in the event that "discreet" turns into "whoops, got discovered", what do you do? Because you've just helped screw up the primary relationship.

Their relationship was screwed before they considered any kind of relationship with someone else. I believe people are assuming the relationship was ok and one seeking emotional and sexual (both can be mutually exclusive) then and only then did the relationship go awry. Cheating isn't necessarily something done by a sex addicted person who sees his sexual prowess as a game and it using women to fullfill that.

So they go to counseling, have the poly talk, and deal from there. If not, they divorce.

Not all relationships are capable of going poly. Not all relationships feel like divorce is an option. If you want to avoid those people as potentials. There is nothing wrong with that.

No. No, there really isn't any integrity in doing that. Got a family? Be honest with them. Got kids? They can handle "Mommy and Daddy aren't in love anymore" better than "...and one of us has hurt the other in order to see if we could all still live under the same roof. Be grateful!"

Never going to accept "for the children/family" as an excuse, sorry. And I'm never going to forgive the kind of person who does this to a family, because of what it did to mine.

In a perfect world this is the case. With divorce being the reason behind so many children feeling broken, many more of them are in therapy to deal with how it affected their relationships later than those who are seeking therapy because a parent sought TLC from another person and stayed married to their other parent anyway. I truly think some viewpoints are pie-in-the-sky and would be the IDEAL. If you want to live your life according to the ideal setup and are willing to wait until the ideal opportunity comes along, that is most certainly ok.

I still see these ideal candidates who are entirely transparent STILL not work in the end for other reasons. So it is no guarantee that transparency is going to translate into a happy ending for any parties involved.

I try not to judge whatever is going on in a primary, as I don't live in their home to know both sides of the story. I also would hope others wouldn't be judgmental towards those who appreciate what connections they can get that meet the mutual needs of 2 or more that are in the equation. Life is short and I try to plug into resources that have the most potential based on many aspects.

(Now this is regarding a couple of other posts above as I messed up the multiquote option, so forgive me for lumping it in)

The things mentioned about STD risks are very real risks indeed. They are things that must be thought about. Although I presumed some people are using condoms. Some people have no reproductive organs (like myself) and with condom use will not be at the same risk for some of these STDs. It in NO way exempts me from having that possibility for some things to be carried. But I believe I am in a slightly different risk category because I had a total hysterectomy (cervix and all).

And who knows, I might be exactly in majority viewpoint here before too long. The relationships I have taken on continuously morph my opinion about what I want to do and what makes my primary most content. With more experience and study under my belt I will likely change some of these views to benefit everyone in an optimum way.

My way of thinking about this is not traditional according to those who operate under the same label. To some, this means I am not poly at all. There are traditional opinions on many things and some will fall out of favor with those who follow that motto because they don't follow it also.

I just try to give another perspective as I always think there are more complexities to even the most simple of scenarios. It is just the way I think in general. The way my brain works. I am always open to hearing the other side. It helps me reevaluate my decisions. So whether or not I am in the majority here on this issue, I really appreciate reading the opinions of others about it. Gives me so much to think about!

CielDuMatin

05-24-2012, 10:27 PM

With divorce being the reason behind so many children feeling broken, many more of them are in therapy to deal with how it affected their relationships later than those who are seeking therapy because a parent sought TLC from another person and stayed married to their other parent anyway.The sheer quantity of people doing something has absolutely no correlation with the severity of the issue, or the damage that it does. Sorry to be harsh, but that statement is an utter cop-out.

You want numbers? There may well be some very specific cases where having someone as a sex-surrogate is necessary and helps. Many, many more are just people who would rather fuck someone else than deal with the responsibilities that they chose to take on, through thick or thin, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer.

Again, if those are the types of people who are good relationship material for you, then more power to you. For me, trust and commitment are what I give and expect from a partner, whether short-term or long-term. Someone who is cheating has demonstrated that when it comes to both, they fall very, very short.

mrspolyamorous

05-24-2012, 10:53 PM

The sheer quantity of people doing something has absolutely no correlation with the severity of the issue, or the damage that it does. Sorry to be harsh, but that statement is an utter cop-out.

You want numbers? There may well be some very specific cases where having someone as a sex-surrogate is necessary and helps. Many, many more are just people who would rather fuck someone else than deal with the responsibilities that they chose to take on, through thick or thin, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer.

You couldn't be more correct about how many more are just wanting people to fuck rather than to deal with the responsibilities they have. I try to avoid those people as those I get involved with typically start off with no sex at all and sometimes fizzle out before they had a chance to go there. So they were looking for some emotional support first and foremost and they were open to my poly situation and felt inspired by it.

Some people also have spoken about both married partners doing their own thing and I am the first person they are choosing to do that with because we have a kindred connection that gives them something to work from and grow from. They just haven't shared all the details with their partner not because they are dishonest but because they want to see how things might pan about between us before they "bring me home to meet the parents". I might be that trial and error for them just as much as they are for me.

Again, if those are the types of people who are good relationship material for you, then more power to you. For me, trust and commitment are what I give and expect from a partner, whether short-term or long-term. Someone who is cheating has demonstrated that when it comes to both, they fall very, very short.

It's not something I want. I am just a live and let live kind of person.

I said I have many reasons as to why I would feel an emotional connection with someone. I base who I am attracted to on many variables. Some are not as big of a deal as others, but other things that aren't a big deal to you might be a deal breaker for me.

I can appreciate your feelings on the issue. To me, someone who doesn't mesh well with me and my husbands quirks in life (as we are both Asperger's) are people who automatically get excluded (which is a majority of people anyway) let alone how many more that removes from the table when you are looking for another couple. So there are big fish to fry left and right when living this lifestyle. I am not looking to move every potential in. I am not necessarily looking for sex. If that other person is only looking for sexual fulfillment and not something much deeper, well they aren't my type anyway.

I know several people who are in situations where they might enjoy a multi-faceted connection with me and my husband as an adventure and experience in their lives at a point when they need it the most. It might motivate them in ways they weren't able to be before.

Ultimately and ideally, I would have full disclosure. And several people I had hoped to get to know better were uncomfortable with the idea that I was married at all, even with transparency between my husband and I. They didn't like knowing that he knew. Those people who can't be OK with me being married (whether they are married or not) are people who exclude themselves too.

Statistically, it feels like the chances of success in poly relationships is so minimal already that adding any other complexities to the equation (sans marriage issues) just makes it that much less likely to be able to connect with people who might only be a chapter or two in my life story.

I am relatively new to the poly thing and I learn something new everytime I read a response. All backgrounds help me be a better poly person. But I've never been a traditionalist. I was held back in detrimental ways due to people holding fast and true to traditional guidelines placed on them from religion. I believe rigidity in thinking can certainly have a purpose and a place. I just think there has been a lot of judgment and assumptions made on what others should be doing in their marriage.

There are exceptions to all stereotypes. Believe it or not, I happen to rub shoulders with those exceptions all the time. People find me easy to talk to and open up about things. I ask a lot of questions. A lot that tells me whether or not they are looking to get their rocks off only. Whether or not they have sought this sort of thing before. Why? What does their spouse know? I have them answer the same questions in different ways to see if they are just making things up as they go. I could still be getting lied to. But I'd like to think I am not haphazardly going out and about doing whatever without considering what type of people they are and what they might be ultimately trying to accomplish.

ThatGirlInGray

05-25-2012, 03:22 AM

No, there really isn't any integrity in doing that. Got a family? Be honest with them. Got kids? They can handle "Mommy and Daddy aren't in love anymore" better than "...and one of us has hurt the other in order to see if we could all still live under the same roof. Be grateful!"

Never going to accept "for the children/family" as an excuse, sorry. And I'm never going to forgive the kind of person who does this to a family, because of what it did to mine.

You're assuming that the spouse is going to react at all rationally to honesty. Case in point: a friend of mine's marriage was failing. Badly. She didn't love him anymore, wouldn't sleep with him, they had yelling/screaming matches in front the kids, he wanted them to try counseling, but she wasn't willing to do any work. AND, if he left, there wasn't enough money for two households so his kids would suffer even more, AND she was enough of a manipulative bitch to keep their kids from him until she was absolutely legally FORCED to let him see them. So he stayed and did what he could. He stayed in a broken, fucked-up situation so that the kids would have at least one dependable parent around. Was it GOOD for the kids? Hell no. But as far as he could see it was better than the other options available at the time. His cheating (because that's what some of you would call it) and lying to his wife-in-name-only could hardly be seen as a betrayal when she was already so far off the deep end. He was trying to keep a little bit of sanity to keep himself together while keeping the peace as best he could in the situation he found himself in. Did I feel at all guilty in aiding and abetting that? You bet your ass I did NOT. And a year or so later (long after I was out of the picture) was I happy to hear he had managed to get a divorce and was dating again? Absolutely.

So for those who, as children, had homes broken apparently due to cheating, I'm sorry for your pain, but it's likely there were other problems contributing. Cheating in my experience is the symptom, not the cause. I will say, though, that it's never a solution either. Long-term cheating is something I have no patience for. Especially if you get caught, but even if you don't, it should only ever be something short-term that drastically alters your perception of what's going on in your life and opens your eyes to what you need to do to change things.

mrspolyamorous

05-25-2012, 04:13 AM

You're assuming that the spouse is going to react at all rationally to honesty. Case in point: a friend of mine's marriage was failing. Badly. She didn't love him anymore, wouldn't sleep with him, they had yelling/screaming matches in front the kids, he wanted them to try counseling, but she wasn't willing to do any work. AND, if he left, there wasn't enough money for two households so his kids would suffer even more, AND she was enough of a manipulative bitch to keep their kids from him until she was absolutely legally FORCED to let him see them. So he stayed and did what he could. He stayed in a broken, fucked-up situation so that the kids would have at least one dependable parent around. Was it GOOD for the kids? Hell no. But as far as he could see it was better than the other options available at the time. His cheating (because that's what some of you would call it) and lying to his wife-in-name-only could hardly be seen as a betrayal when she was already so far off the deep end. He was trying to keep a little bit of sanity to keep himself together while keeping the peace as best he could in the situation he found himself in. Did I feel at all guilty in aiding and abetting that? You bet your ass I did NOT. And a year or so later (long after I was out of the picture) was I happy to hear he had managed to get a divorce and was dating again? Absolutely.

So for those who, as children, had homes broken apparently due to cheating, I'm sorry for your pain, but it's likely there were other problems contributing. Cheating in my experience is the symptom, not the cause. I will say, though, that it's never a solution either. Long-term cheating is something I have no patience for. Especially if you get caught, but even if you don't, it should only ever be something short-term that drastically alters your perception of what's going on in your life and opens your eyes to what you need to do to change things.

+1

This is an extremely common scenario...much more common than a Kennedy-esque womanizer who wants more feathers in his cap. I feel for people in these situations and if they have something to offer me and mine and I have something to offer them that helps make their life better, then so be it. I don't sit around worrying about how someone else is NOT doing their job. It's simply outsourcing after a million arguments to try to plead to get some of your needs met. I see it as nothing more than that.

Too many presumptions here about how the another person in that man/woman's life behaves already and will behave when faced with the truth. A man who is this honest to a crazy woman could well indeed lose half or more of everything he has. Not to mention the priceless ability to get to live with your children full time by choosing not to disrupt even more an already dysfunctional household.

Emm

05-25-2012, 05:38 AM

So it is no guarantee that transparency is going to translate into a happy ending for any parties involved.Perhaps not, but at least it would be an ethical ending.

mrspolyamorous

05-25-2012, 06:22 AM

Perhaps not, but at least it would be an ethical ending.

Ethics don't make me feel compelled to demand another person, who is likely a chapter in my book of life, obliterate their primary homelife to be considered a candidate in my love life. I'm sorry. We will have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't ask anyone else subscribe to my ethics just because I think they are the way I should behave, as they must weigh carefully what is on the line for the risks they are personally taking.

I'd rather the potential (often not so caring, no so warm, loving or sensual) spouse be in the dark than to expect her to be made privy of my existence so she can further destroy the person (and their children's relationship with him). I believe hurting her, the children and the person I am amorous toward is far worse than her being clueless. I believe in some cases there is a bit of "Hear no evil, See no evil, Speak no evil" going on where she doesn't want to know. She is just glad he isn't bugging her for attention. I can't be the only one who has been attracted to people who happen to be in that situation.. surely?

km34

05-25-2012, 06:41 AM

I'm not attracted to liars. And while that situation could feel like a perfectly legitimate one it's still lying. I would never trust that person to tell me the truth. If he/she is so willing to lie to a spouse and their children, why would I be exempt from the lies? If I condone one reason to cheat, I may as well condone them all because an argument could be made in all situations.

On another note, there has been significant research that shows that children with parents who are unhappy in their situations suffer as much if not more trauma than children whose parents get divorced but are psychologically happy. So, even if it would be financially straining I would prefer people who can't function as a unit anymore to split up so that they can be emotionally fulfilled.

I had a friend whose parents were in that situation - their relationship was TERRIBLE, but because her mom had some health issues that made her unable to work, they stayed together "for the kids and financial reasons." One kid ended up pregnant in high school (twice - she has 3 kids now), married the baby daddy, was severely abused by the baby daddy, and then finally moved out. Why did she deal with the guy for so long? Because it was better than witnessing her parents' unhappiness (her words). She finally realized she was doing the same thing to her kids and moved out on her own.

My friend ran away because she got so tired of the tension at home. She officially moved out at 16, transferring high schools, and living with a friend's family. The youngest kid still lives with the mom and is one of the most timid people I've ever seen in my life (as opposed to the spunky, crazy outgoing kid she was).

After the youngest was in high school, the dad's multiple affairs were found out by the kids. The dad that had always provided for them was now just the guy that cheated on their mom. Only one out of the three kids (the youngest who is still forced by the courts to go to his house) is even on speaking terms with him now.

Sure, cheating may be easier than leaving sometimes. And in some cases it may be better for the adults involved, but if there are kids involved, no.

Emm

05-25-2012, 06:51 AM

Ethics don't make me feel compelled to demand another person, who is likely a chapter in my book of life, obliterate their primary homelife to be considered a candidate in my love life. And I would demand no such thing. They simply wouldn't be given the option of being "a candidate in my love life". As km34 so succinctly put it, I'm not attracted to liars.

mrspolyamorous

05-25-2012, 06:52 AM

I could come up with a lot of other family scenarios where staying married did or didn't work out. Each child has a personality that could potentially make bad decisions regardless of their family background. Most families have one or more of these types. Psychology tells us that personalities are formed early and risk taking behavior has a lot to do with personality type. This doesn't make the parents not responsible for how they raise their children.

I had a situation where a guy I was having flirtatious conversation with who was still married to his HS sweetheart didn't end up working out for us, but she found our conversations on Facebook. She read them and was upset at him for it and she asked to speak with me. I shared with her all about my choice to live a poly life and directed her to my blog so she can see why I would be open to considering a married person at all.

She was very cordial and shared some things I had not been aware of according to her perspective. We remain friends and she and her husband have a renewed sense of attraction for one another since she found he was exploring other options. They both wanted to save their marriage. I believe at that point they were hoping I could solve all their problems by having a relationship with them both. But my husband was not attracted to her and her husband turned out to be extremely bothered by the idea of her enjoying sex with another man anyway.

Long story short....she didn't get a meat cleaver and come to destroy me or my life. She didn't want to destroy her husbands life either. They talk to me periodically about how things are going in their relationship and in the bedroom. I feel a little awkward that I couldn't tell them why my husband had no interest in her because she was already feeling insecure for putting on a lot of weight since HS.

But i digress, I feel like my experience has sometimes been a pretty positive one, even if things didn't work out in the end. Sometimes it is a moment where the person doesn't have anything he is lying about. We hadn't even seen each other in person. He was able to then explain WHY he had been motivated to look elsewhere. They were able to hash it out and move in a positive direction.

In this case I felt like i left them in better shape than I found them. It wasn't even planned like that. It's not even my goal to work on someones wife to help them be a better wife initially. But I do feel like my blog is written more for the female in the relationship so she can ask herself and her man the questions she needs to in order to find out if poly or open is right for them. And in this case they decided it is not. I stepped out of the picture and I don't believe she sees her husband as a liar.

In a literal sense, I am not attracted to liars. But I am attracted to people who might lie about something in order to protect someone else. I am attracted to human beings and they are prone to not being 100% like me. They might do things I don't even have to consider doing in my own relationship. I have enough things I feel like I am judged about so I try not to dish it out and lump all people who have lied into a category of being liars when presented with anything that is difficult that they have found a path of least resistance.

zylya

05-25-2012, 11:11 AM

I had a friend once tell me that all men cheat, it's in their genes. She just never wanted to find out about it.

Yay for gender-based stereotyping!

Unlike a lot of people in this topic I don't ever deal in moral absolutes. I don't cheat myself, but I don't really care if someone else cheats or not. I make my decisions based on the person and how I feel about them, their situation, risk/reward to myself and nature of the relationship.

It's not my place to tell someone how to run their lives (not that anyone else here is necessarily doing that) so all I do is assess what they're offering against what I want, and if those two things match-up, the existence of an unaware partner wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me.

That's not to say that I WOULD be with someone cheating either, just recently I've been very interested in a married woman whose marriage is at an end, and although I'm interested in her, I had to pull away because I didn't want to end up inducing her to cheat, not because she had a husband, but because she's a good friend and if I do get into a relationship with her, I want it to have the best shot at succeeding, which I believe in this case is waiting. That's what I mean about dealing with it on a case by case basis.

CielDuMatin

05-25-2012, 01:21 PM

One of the great things about polyamory is the highly diverse group of folks that it attracts. I don't agree with everyone, and I don't expect to. I also don't have any magic formula for how to make poly work.

I spent enough of my life living a set of values that I thought I was expected to live by. They didn't work for me, and I went off the rails in so many ways (I have documented that story elsewhere). At some point I came to the conclusion that I needed to look at what was morally and ethically important to me and not to associate with people who got in the way of that. Part of my goals is the Google-esque "don't be evil". I am not willing to compromise my values for the sake of a relationship - to misquote - "you can have relationships without doing evil." Evil, in this case, is anything that goes against your own moral backbone.

I made a decision that I would not support people who are cheating on their spouses, by having a relationship with them. I did that on the basis that I wouldn't want to be a spouse that was cheated on, and would rather have the person work with me on the relationship first. If I wouldn't want it for myself, how can I be happy when I am doing that to another, even if it's someone that I don't personally know?

So someone may have a justification for lying and breaking the rules of what they promised their spouse (which is what I define as cheating) - people can have all sorts of justifications for crimes, too - but it doesn't make any of it right. Some of those justifications are legitimate, some are made up just so they can feel good about their lying and cheating. It's often very difficult to tell one from the other when you aren't given access to any way to confirm.

I think that most folks on any poly forum would agree that having a relationship behind the back of your spouse is not poly, it's cheating. there have been long debates about whether having a relationship with someone that is cheating on their spouse could be called poly or not. I think that the viewpoints of the various posters on this thread have made their own personal values abundantly clear.

And that is valuable when it comes to finding people who share your own sense of morals and values. A lesson to draw from this (if you didn't know it already) is that when someone says they are "polyamorous", do NOT assume that their poly is your poly - there are some very definite clarifying questions that need to be asked to establish some important issues.

lovefromgirl

05-25-2012, 02:00 PM

Was it GOOD for the kids? Hell no. But as far as he could see it was better than the other options available at the time. His cheating (because that's what some of you would call it) and lying to his wife-in-name-only could hardly be seen as a betrayal when she was already so far off the deep end.

If the home is that broken already, obviously the kids aren't going to be much worse off, if any, about Daddy getting a nicer girlfriend. You actually knew who was on the other end, and that yeah, the situation was a long way beyond a peaceful resolution.

That's different from "Well, why shouldn't I help married men cheat? They started it, not me. I'm just not ruling them out." In your particular case, ThatGirlInGray, you actually knew them already, knew their problem, and knew it couldn't get any worse for your actions.

This worries me, though: "I shared with her all about my choice to live a poly life and directed her to my blog so she can see why I would be open to considering a married person at all." MrsPolyamorous, if you showed her what you told us, I'm a little worried that she came away thinking poly really did mean helping other people cheat. In my experience, that's absolutely not what poly has meant, not to anyone I've known yet.

BrigidsDaughter

05-25-2012, 02:49 PM

Yay for gender-based stereotyping!

Unlike a lot of people in this topic I don't ever deal in moral absolutes. I don't cheat myself, but I don't really care if someone else cheats or not. I make my decisions based on the person and how I feel about them, their situation, risk/reward to myself and nature of the relationship.

It's not my place to tell someone how to run their lives (not that anyone else here is necessarily doing that) so all I do is assess what they're offering against what I want, and if those two things match-up, the existence of an unaware partner wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me.

That's not to say that I WOULD be with someone cheating either, just recently I've been very interested in a married woman whose marriage is at an end, and although I'm interested in her, I had to pull away because I didn't want to end up inducing her to cheat, not because she had a husband, but because she's a good friend and if I do get into a relationship with her, I want it to have the best shot at succeeding, which I believe in this case is waiting. That's what I mean about dealing with it on a case by case basis.

She also willfully disbelieved that her fiance had cheated on her in the past. He had a co worker with an persistent ex and had offered to be her pretend boyfriend so the guy would back off. They went to lunch a few times and ended up having sex on his desk at work. He hadn't meant for it to happen, but only ended it after a friend of ours threatened to tell his fiance. Her views on cheating came up when we were talking about his interest in having a threesome. He was considering breaking up with her and Pretty Lady and I had offered to give it a shot since our friend was uncomfortable participating herself. We had told him he would either need to a) break it off or b) get her permission. He came back to us saying she was pregnant, they weren't breaking up, and she'd said yes. We went ahead with it and she and I had lunch a week later and I discovered she was still thinking about it; wanted to know when it happened if she agreed, etc. I didn't have the heart to tell her we'd already slept with him considering she'd just found out she was almost 6 months pregnant. But discovering that he'd lied to all of us was a blow that killed our friendship and caused Pretty Lady to pull back completely from our relationship.

After that I decided that I would never knowingly help anyone cheat.

zylya

05-25-2012, 03:43 PM

She also willfully disbelieved that her fiance had cheated on her in the past. He had a co worker with an persistent ex and had offered to be her pretend boyfriend so the guy would back off. They went to lunch a few times and ended up having sex on his desk at work. He hadn't meant for it to happen, but only ended it after a friend of ours threatened to tell his fiance. Her views on cheating came up when we were talking about his interest in having a threesome. He was considering breaking up with her and Pretty Lady and I had offered to give it a shot since our friend was uncomfortable participating herself. We had told him he would either need to a) break it off or b) get her permission. He came back to us saying she was pregnant, they weren't breaking up, and she'd said yes. We went ahead with it and she and I had lunch a week later and I discovered she was still thinking about it; wanted to know when it happened if she agreed, etc. I didn't have the heart to tell her we'd already slept with him considering she'd just found out she was almost 6 months pregnant. But discovering that he'd lied to all of us was a blow that killed our friendship and caused Pretty Lady to pull back completely from our relationship.

After that I decided that I would never knowingly help anyone cheat.

Just to clarify, my response to your post was just the one line of "Yay for gender based stereotyping" - the rest of my post was aiming to answer the topic at hand, which was to give my thoughts on whether cheating is a dealbreaker for me.

My "yay for gender based stereotyping" was to point out that just because one/some guys cheat, doesn't make it true for all guys. I know it wasn't you who said it, but that doesn't make it any less stereotypical, and untrue for a lot of males.

lovefromgirl

05-25-2012, 03:55 PM

My "yay for gender based stereotyping" was to point out that just because one/some guys cheat, doesn't make it true for all guys. I know it wasn't you who said it, but that doesn't make it any less stereotypical, and untrue for a lot of males.

I guess it's harder to believe that after the men around you either cheat or help someone else cheat. (Yes, sauce for goose, sauce for gander, etc. I know there are faithless women as well; a friend called me from a hotel room once because her friend's mother had thrown them all a slumber party. As a cover. Great mother.) It's nice when your trust has never been broken, isn't it?

zylya

05-25-2012, 04:25 PM

I guess it's harder to believe that after the men around you either cheat or help someone else cheat. (Yes, sauce for goose, sauce for gander, etc. I know there are faithless women as well; a friend called me from a hotel room once because her friend's mother had thrown them all a slumber party. As a cover. Great mother.) It's nice when your trust has never been broken, isn't it?

Back when I did mono relationships, I had some girlfriends cheat on me. Does this mean that ALL women cheat? I've had trust broken, as I'm sure most people have. That doesn't mean I never trust ANYONE ever again, it just means I don't trust the people who broke it.

lovefromgirl

05-25-2012, 05:30 PM

Back when I did mono relationships, I had some girlfriends cheat on me. Does this mean that ALL women cheat? I've had trust broken, as I'm sure most people have. That doesn't mean I never trust ANYONE ever again, it just means I don't trust the people who broke it.

How do you do it? Not sarcasm. What's different about us, then? Is it because you were an adult and knew that relationships could be healthy and full of trust without excessive verification required? Are you just on a more even keel? ("Both" is an answer. :) )

CielDuMatin

05-25-2012, 07:52 PM

I have had two girlfriends cheat on me (that I know of). I suppose I have had enough examples of people that did act with integrity and honesty that I know that this is an individual thing, not a human condition, or specific to any gender.

BrigidsDaughter

05-25-2012, 09:14 PM

I wasn't arguing with the gender stereotyping. I know that it is unfair and pointed it out to her once, but that is what she was raised to believe, partially because her Lt. Colonel of a father had many mistresses throughout the years and her mother was trying to prepare her for the possibility that she too might be cheated on one day.

redpepper

05-25-2012, 09:38 PM

And in the event that "discreet" turns into "whoops, got discovered", what do you do? Because you've just helped screw up the primary relationship.

So they go to counseling, have the poly talk, and deal from there. If not, they divorce.

No. No, there really isn't any integrity in doing that. Got a family? Be honest with them. Got kids? They can handle "Mommy and Daddy aren't in love anymore" better than "...and one of us has hurt the other in order to see if we could all still live under the same roof. Be grateful!"

Never going to accept "for the children/family" as an excuse, sorry. And I'm never going to forgive the kind of person who does this to a family, because of what it did to mine.I support everything you say here. If there were a like button I would "liked" this. There is never a reason that is going to be good enough for me to be okay with cheating. Ever. I don't care what is going on for my partner's primary relationship, if they have not said anything to them, made any attempt to hold on to their integrity then I walk. There are times I have waffled on the cheating thing, but I expect and attempt. At least that.

Cheating to me is the opposite of polyamory. If someone's cheating it just doesn't fit what I value and what I believe is the common description of poly, that of consentual non-monogamy.

To me the world has become devistated by those that support and blow off cheating in relationships. I don't want to ever support that continuing. The world would be far better off learning the value of honest, open communmication, compassion, integrity and commitment to a lifetime of process and support in relationships. I don't believe anyone benefits from being supportive of cheating and I don't believe anyone benefits from cheating. I think its addicting to lie and get ones needs met by manipulation, control and selfishness; on that of the side of the cheater and that on the side of someone who is so close minded that they aren't willing to let go of control.

This from someone that has a long history of dealing with this from many sides.

This is a topic that has been extensively talked about here. I suggest a tag search on "cheating" if anyone is interested in reading more. Especially the stories from those that feel the extreme pain of having been cheated on.

Derbylicious

05-25-2012, 10:54 PM

The things mentioned about STD risks are very real risks indeed. They are things that must be thought about. Although I presumed some people are using condoms. Some people have no reproductive organs (like myself) and with condom use will not be at the same risk for some of these STDs. It in NO way exempts me from having that possibility for some things to be carried. But I believe I am in a slightly different risk category because I had a total hysterectomy (cervix and all).

This is going to be off topic. If you have mucous membranes you have exactly the same risk of catching or transmitting ANY of the STI's. Your risk of cervical cancer from HPV is obviously non existent since you don't have a cervix but you can still carry HPV and pass it on to someone else. STI's are transmitted through fluids and have nothing to do with if you have a uterus or cervix or not.

km34

05-25-2012, 11:21 PM

This is going to be off topic. If you have mucous membranes you have exactly the same risk of catching or transmitting ANY of the STI's. Your risk of cervical cancer from HPV is obviously non existent since you don't have a cervix but you can still carry HPV and pass it on to someone else. STI's are transmitted through fluids and have nothing to do with if you have a uterus or cervix or not.

HPV also causes vaginal cancer, anal cancer, oral cancers, etc. so just lacking the cervix doesn't exempt you from the risk of HPV-related cancers.Other STIs are able to adapt and cause issues in other body parts, as well, so just because you don't have the organ that is most often affected by a particular virus or bacteria doesn't mean you're safe from it altogether.

mrspolyamorous

05-25-2012, 11:34 PM

It's difficult for some STIs to live in a vaginal cuff as they do their survival and damage is mostly done to the cervix, uterus, fallopian tubes such as PID, Chlamydia and other infections and bacteria like that. My risk for those types of problems are lower than a person who does have a cervix, uterus and tubes. I have a vaginal cuff with no area for some of those things to latch onto and do their damage. Does this make me invincible, not in the least.

This is statistical mathematical risk taking. Some things cause the numbers to rise against them or work in their favor. Let's not derail an entire topic on STIs. But, I see the point you are trying to make. I use condoms and I get tested like I should if i am going to be in a non-mono situation.

But for someone else who carries the risk of getting pregnant by a married man (even with condom use) and other issues that could be far more damaging to take that sort of risk, well, that woman also has more to consider than I do. That was simply the point I was trying to make. Weighing heavily the options and which risks are worth it.

Also, as mentioned earlier. I wouldn't dream of cheating on my spouse, not the one I have. He is quite open, honest and communicative. I am treated well. He would admit to feeling the same way. So it's not something I worry myself about.

And as for counseling that others should do, sure, that's ideal too. I wouldn't be afraid of talking to a counselor but I know there are people like my Dad who will not approve of my mom seeing a counselor or them seeing one together. It is against all of his beliefs he was raised with to keep problems under the rug. It's also against the type of religious belief he has that God will provide you with the answers and if he doesn't then he will grant you the "grace" to get through it. My mom is seeing a therapist without his knowledge just to deal with her issues because she knows she needs to do it. I will be discreet about that information between my parents also. So there are spouses that wouldn't dream of going to share their problems with a 3rd person. And the problems will just continue to exist. If i happen to choose to be with a person who is with someone who refuses to get help or even acknowledge their pre-existing issues, that is my business. If i fall out of respect with some people for knowing this, so be it.

But I know there are a handful that are not burdened constantly with the feelings of others the same way that you might be compelled to do so. Maybe our conscience is tuned a little differently. Where as something like not putting your basket in the receptacle in the parking lot at the store would be grounds for me to examine a person because maybe they will be cutting a lot of corners in our relationship when no one is looking. Right? The truth is we all have something we won't tolerate or stand for at all. I happen to not be on the same page as some of you about it.

And as for the wife of the guy I was talking to who wanted to pair up with me and my husband or me at the very least with her alone or with her and her husband, well she would not consider my talking to her husband about sexual fantasies on their facebook to have been cheating. It was a red flag for her to bring up with her husband since he was living on the couch at that point due to existing circumstances. He was promptly allowed back in their bed after a long talk about both of their feelings about where their marriage was going. I didn't set out to do that. It managed to work out that way. I stepped out of the picture once I saw their motivation to work things out. I don't need her husband in my life to be happy. But we connected on a level that would be considered cheating to some sure.

Alleycat

05-28-2012, 08:32 AM

As a general rule I wont enter into a relationship with someone who is actively cheating.

That being said; for a brief period a few years ago I was involved with a long time friend who was cheating on their long-term significant other. (also a long time friend of mine)

Tragically her long term partner had become a drug addled waste of air that was half a step away from outright psychotic lunacy and as a result was an ongoing drain on her emotionally and spiritually (as well and financially.)

One of the major issues he had developed was a major phobia of physical contact, especially any kind of contact of an intimate nature.

As a result, she had become starved for even a small measure of touch.
This is what really made the relationship unbearable for her.

Her significant other had long ago stopped being a life-partner and had become something more akin to a parasitic man-child that she had to look after. Their relationship had become essentially loveless, and toxic for her.
She still loved the guy to death though and couldn't bring herself to do much more than look after him and stay with him out of habit no matter how much of a toll it was taking on her.

Thing between us kind of just fell into place. At first she needed to cuddle and just be able to verbally vent to someone that could listen and that wasn't convinced bugs were crawling over the walls in the dark. Things quickly escalated into sex, I think in hindsight; as mostly a method for her to feel some physical validation and release. There wasn't much romance per-say. Intimacy yes, but not much romance.

She was in a one sided relationship and was lonely to death. I was a convenient friend that could provide some benefits under the guise of discretion.

After a while things had to come to an end, we were both beginning to feel very guilty about our behaviour, and she really had to begin to move her life forward and what we had going on was proving to be too much of an exercise in escaping from reality.

Really that was that. We went back to being six-pack buddies again without the fucking and cuddling, She had decided to begin the process of separating from him and taking the steps to move him into a long-term care situation and moving on.

Kind of lost touch with her unfortunately, last I knew she had hooked up with someone else, ended up following a job opportunity and moved to another city.

Was it cheating? yes.

we were both lying by omission about what exactly we were doing, at least to her partner (mine were aware).

Was it for a positive or healthy cause or reason?
I'd like to think so.

Does that justify everything that went on?
Maybe. I'm not entirely sure.

opalescent

05-29-2012, 12:04 AM

For me it is. I acknowledge the lots of gray in this area and that an ethical cheating situation is possible. But it's not a place I would go knowingly. And if it was unknowingly I would be seriously pissed off.

LotusesandRoses

05-29-2012, 03:01 AM

I won't be friends with someone who's cheating, let alone date them.

mrspolyamorous

05-29-2012, 08:24 AM

After some research on the traditional views of poly, I am not sure what the future holds for me but it's really hard to stay in one mindset when you are filling your head with knowledge about a particular subject. I feel like a hybrid to a degree and I believe I've been in the swinging arena more times than I've been in the poly arena but I have indeed been gaining some ground in t hat area as well. I like both but ultimately I would prefer to have full disclosure for all parties involved and I have no doubt we can find that. I suppose due to the exploration period we are in, we have been apt to believe that you can somehow avoid excluding potentials based on their disclosure status. In the end I am not sure if this is something we could continue to do under the same belief that we are headed in the right direction towards ultimate polyamorousness with someone long term. I believe it would prevent us from getting what we eventually want.

Note that the community here has helped me gain more knowledge on what poly can mean to different people and I've had to open up my mind to more possibilities and at the same time close my mind to possibilities. It's pretty emotional and exhausting but I know there are some answers to my questions. I just need to lurk through old posts and do some searches on the internet and read some blogs.

My husband and I are to the point where we are having to come to the crossroads about what "we" want. Not just what I want or he wants. We can't say "You are going to California and I am going to New York, let's go together!" it makes no sense not to be on the same page. Be patient with me as I work through these questions of traditional poly ethical behavior and determine if I'm even in the right community for what I am ultimately trying to accomplish.

Nudibranch

05-29-2012, 03:34 PM

I'm just curious where others stand on this topic? Would this be a deal breaker for you when determining if you get involved with someone or not?

If they'll cheat on others, they'll eventually cheat on you. The corollary there is, if you accept them cheating on others, or on you,...then don't call me at 2 in the morning with a tale of woe about all that when it snakes around and fangs your glutes.

I prefer my relationships like whiskey: straight up, not on the rocks, and of the highest quality I can afford. Life is already too complicated and full of surprises. In my view, cheating is lying, and lying is the way people dynamite short cuts through the mountainous terrain of another person's personality/reality. It's a sort of selfishness that can be exciting...but not very sustaining.

IME, at the end of the day, micro-honesty is an even riskier and more exciting journey than lying.

BrandonWin

05-29-2012, 03:53 PM

I won't be friends with someone who's cheating, let alone date them.

This, all the way. A person who is genuinely cheating is lying to someone. I just can't abide that. - bw

CielDuMatin

05-29-2012, 06:08 PM

I acknowledge the lots of gray in this area and that an ethical cheating situation is possible. I just can not for the life of me imagine a situation where the term "ethical cheating" could be used. I hear that and it sounds like "legally illegal". none of the examples I have read in this or any other thread could even remotely be called "ethical" in my books.

But those are my ethics... YMMV, of course.

Tonberry

05-29-2012, 06:57 PM

lovefromgirl

05-29-2012, 08:54 PM

I think Dan Savage has mentioned that the cases where he condones cheating are when the person's sex needs being unfulfilled threatens the relationship, and there is a serious reason why a breakup isn't an option (for instance a very sick partner that requires a lot of support). In that case getting sex elsewhere would actually allow the person to be a better spouse to their partner, but discussing the idea might cause them useless additional stress, hence doing it behind their back.

I am not sure if you have ever experienced chronic and/or severe illness as described. I am sure that during my own long haul, in those horrible days before we knew what was going on and family members were dying on me (stress upon stress!), I would damn well have preferred to hear him say, "Honey, it's not enough. I need a fuckbuddy." At which point I would have told him, "Choose well, darling," and helped him work out time to get his needs fulfilled. Dyads with nobody extra have even more time in their schedules to accomplish this, and when one is, say, sedated and undergoing treatment, one's partner does not need to sit there and watch. So really, if this is going to be an issue should one partner ever become that seriously ill, maybe it should be discussed while everyone's healthy.

It is NOT better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission in this case. Especially with sharp or blunt objects within easy reach.

redpepper

05-29-2012, 09:06 PM

I think Dan Savage has mentioned that the cases where he condones cheating are when the person's sex needs being unfulfilled threatens the relationship, and there is a serious reason why a breakup isn't an option (for instance a very sick partner that requires a lot of support). In that case getting sex elsewhere would actually allow the person to be a better spouse to their partner, but discussing the idea might cause them useless additional stress, hence doing it behind their back.A friend of mine made me came to this conclusion. His wife has an illness that makes it impossible for her to not only hike like they used to and do other physical activities together (sex), but unable to discuss complicated emotions and theories such as poly. He tried. She became distraught and confused and could not respond. I got him to do at least tell her what he is missing in his life and bring up poly, but it didn't work out.

He cheated on her for sex and got caught up, both times, in each woman's break up of their marriage. It was hurtful and sad for him. I tried to introduce him to the poly community to see if someone would accept his situation, but no one is interested. Very sad. I suggested he at least pick more wisely who he cheats with. *cringe. Can't believe that came out of my mouth! A DADT is what he and I decided he should call it, just to make him feel better :(

LotusesandRoses

05-29-2012, 09:24 PM

I think Dan Savage has mentioned that the cases where he condones cheating are when the person's sex needs being unfulfilled threatens the relationship, and there is a serious reason why a breakup isn't an option (for instance a very sick partner that requires a lot of support). In that case getting sex elsewhere would actually allow the person to be a better spouse to their partner, but discussing the idea might cause them useless additional stress, hence doing it behind their back.

Dan's also known for saying racist (http://www.bilerico.com/2009/09/dan_savage_chill_with_your_race_baiting.php), transphobic (http://thetranslife.com/?p=446) crap and blaming rape victims (http://www.womanist-musings.com/2010/11/dan-savage-attacks-rape-survivor-while.html).

He's not precisely a fountain of wisdom.

If your partner has cancer, skip the Savage Love column and try a support group. It's nothing new.

ETA: Tonberry, I wasn't snipping at you; I just REALLY don't like Dan's "consider others' feelings" when he's trying to be "edgy" by complaining about how bigoted black people are, how trans people need to wait until a kid is at a "stable" period to transition (Isn't college more of a transition than high school? When's it okay to transition, Danno?), and that rape victims would just have sex whenever to satisfy partners. I like Dan, but he needs to decide whether or not he's going to be the Queen of Shock or an advice columnist.

But your advice has its merits. Far more than Dan's, and I never meant to imply otherwise. Sorry.

opalescent

05-29-2012, 10:10 PM

I just can not for the life of me imagine a situation where the term "ethical cheating" could be used. I hear that and it sounds like "legally illegal". none of the examples I have read in this or any other thread could even remotely be called "ethical" in my books.

It's not a great term and I find using it makes me uncomfortable. But I do believe there are some situations where it applies. Often they are like the ones listed in this thread where physical or mental illness is involved. I once chatted on OKC with a gentleman whose wife had had a stroke. She was incapable of sex and probably was not capable of consenting to a DADT, an open relationship or anything else intellectually complicated. And they are relatively young - early 40s or so. So cheating is his only choice if he wanted any sexual interactions at all for the next 20, 30, or 40 years. I did not go there with him because I wasn't attracted and I don't give pity fucks. (Horrible things, pity fucks IMO.) Still I could not condemn him.

WhatHappened

05-30-2012, 05:37 AM

The case has been put forward in this thread of the poor guy whose wife is an evil bitch, makes him miserable, and is going to make his life even worse and take his children away from him if he divorces, etc and so forth. And he's just trying to find a little happiness in life. And he can't tell her he's sleeping with someone else because she'd react so badly, but she's so horrible and awful she really drove him to it.

I'm on an infidelity forum and I think I can safely say that close to 100% of cheating men and women paint this picture of their spouses. Usually the truth is that there's a spouse at home who is none of the things being portrayed, who thinks they have a wonderful marriage, or alternatively, is desperately doing anything they can think of to make the spouse happy and the marriage better again, totally clueless as to what's really going on.

I have a great deal of respect for the (poly, married) man I'm currently seeing in that he knew roughly what was going on in my marriage for probably two years--my ex-husband lying to me about money and other women and backstabbing and betraying and badmouthing me; he knew when I filed; he knew during the whole 8 months of the divorce process that it was happening. (We didn't talk about it a lot, I only mentioned the overall picture at work.)

He knew and he still said and did nothing until three months after the divorce was final--he didn't so much as flirt with me or hint in any way that he'd like to go out with me--because he had some respect for me, for not wanting to complicate the situation for me, not asking me or tempting me to lie; I believe he had respect for the institution of marriage even if he and his wife have a different view of it than most of socierty; he had respect for my children who would only be hurt more by me getting involved with someone else while still married.

I have a great deal of respect for him that he stood back and didn't get involved until I was 100% single and available, till nobody could claim I cheated, till my children could never wonder if I was the one who broke the marriage.

In truth, I was more the one in the difficult position, knowing my husband was lying about money and women, and twisting stories till people who had never met me believed horrible (untrue) things about me; I was the one looking at trying to raise a bunch of kids on my part time income. And like millions of others in that situation, I didn't justify cheating. I filed for divorce and did everything above board and honestly.

ThatGirlInGray

05-30-2012, 05:06 PM

close to 100%...Usually

So, by your own words it's possible for there to be exceptions, and for the situation to actually be as presented. Here's the thing- each of us can only make decisions based on how much we trust another person, how well we feel we know them, and how confident we are in the situation. In the case I posted about to which you're referring, I had met her, talked to her, and even tried to be friends with her when I first became friends with him, so I had a decent level of confidence in the situation, having seen some of it first-hand. If I hadn't had that knowledge and experience, maybe my choices would have been different. I know that if I didn't feel like I knew a person well and trusted them, I wouldn't be having any kind of FWB or romantic relationship with them anyway.

I'm trying to decide if using an infidelity forum to make generalizations about cheaters makes sense or not. On one hand it makes total sense- get the information from the source, right? But on the other hand it seems like the results could be greatly skewed because it's the furthest thing from a random, unbiased cross-section. I don't feel conclusions about poly based on this forum, for instance, would work either (with the possible exceptions of "it can work" and "honest communication is a must").

On a different note, I think statements like, "once a cheater, always a cheater" and "if he'll cheat on them, he'll cheat on you" are so disrespectful to people who have cheated in the past but worked on their shit and came to a place where they didn't feel like they had to or needed to anymore. If those statements are true, what's the point of anyone trying to work on themselves or their relationships? However you acted, whatever decisions or choices you made 5, 10, 20 years ago are what you're going to do in the future anyway by that logic, right? So why bother?

CielDuMatin

05-30-2012, 11:25 PM

It's not a great term and I find using it makes me uncomfortable. But I do believe there are some situations where it applies. Often they are like the ones listed in this thread where physical or mental illness is involved. I once chatted on OKC with a gentleman whose wife had had a stroke. She was incapable of sex and probably was not capable of consenting to a DADT, an open relationship or anything else intellectually complicated. And they are relatively young - early 40s or so. So cheating is his only choice if he wanted any sexual interactions at all for the next 20, 30, or 40 years. I did not go there with him because I wasn't attracted and I don't give pity fucks. (Horrible things, pity fucks IMO.) Still I could not condemn him. Right, because having sex is more important than any promise you make, right? :confused:

Sorry, don't buy it.

Most of these people made a solemn vow along the lines of "to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; and I promise to be faithful to you until death parts us."

So those promises suddenly stop meaning anything when sickness comes along? How does THAT work?

Sorry, ethics to me means keeping the promises you made, and what you are describing is most definitely NOT keeping them. You can't single-handedly abandon those promises for whatever reason and then claim to be ethical. The sickness of a partner is almost the worst, least-ethical reason I can think of.

Pretzels

05-31-2012, 02:12 AM

It's funny how people presume cheating can only take place without the cheater's SO's knowledge.

What if a sanctioned, blessed upon poly arrangement with limits is taken beyond those limits by one of the parties involved? Say there's a "no overnights" rule and, tada, the sun rises and one of the primary partners isn't home yet? Or if the SO sees their partner going too deep into NRE (or beyond) with a new person?

The spectrum for cheating is pretty broad. I have one guy friend that I've never even so much as kissed and hanging out with him as a pal during my engaged days and his single days sure as heck felt a lot like cheating.

Having been on both sides of the equation, I'll likely steer clear of such a situation but that's just personal preference.

redpepper

05-31-2012, 05:06 AM

Sorry, ethics to me means keeping the promises you made, and what you are describing is most definitely NOT keeping them. You can't single-handedly abandon those promises for whatever reason and then claim to be ethical. The sickness of a partner is almost the worst, least-ethical reason I can think of.one of my pillars of poly, integrity.

Did you read my story above Ciel. Sometimes its hard to know.
Not that I'm disagreeing as a whole about what you say. Just the last sentence here. Its a confusing and relationship specific one for me.

CielDuMatin

05-31-2012, 11:59 AM

It's funny how people presume cheating can only take place without the cheater's SO's knowledge.The definition of cheating, to me, is quite simple - breaking the rules of the relationship that you have. If the SO knows and agrees to what happens and then that happens, then it's not cheating. If someone goes beyond the boundaries agreed-to, then it's cheating.

What if a sanctioned, blessed upon poly arrangement with limits is taken beyond those limits by one of the parties involved? Say there's a "no overnights" rule and, tada, the sun rises and one of the primary partners isn't home yet?Unless there was some sort of emergency and the person could not contact the SO, then cheating.

Or if the SO sees their partner going too deep into NRE (or beyond) with a new person?Since that is difficult to quantify it's not an agreement I would ever make, unless it involved specific actions. If specific actions violate negotiated boundaries, then cheating, yes.

Sometimes its hard to know.
Not that I'm disagreeing as a whole about what you say. Just the last sentence here. Its a confusing and relationship specific one for me.I guess for me and my own values it's not hard to know. The only time it gets difficult is when the boundaries are left undiscussed, and assumptions are made, based on some sort of societal norms. For this reason I am extremely careful to discuss as many possibilities with my partners before they become an issue, so that we can discuss them with level heads.

Redpepper, yes I read your story and no, it doesn't seem at all hard to know. His partner was not in a position to consent to changing the rules of the promised relationship. I don't think that a lack of ability to consent should constitute a legitimate reason to be able to throw whatever rules out of the window that don't suit at the time.

The whole purpose of a committed relationship is commitment - a set of promises are made with an expectation that those will be honoured by everyone involved. Too many people make promises without really thinking what they mean, and even whether they can really honour that commitment. This is, to me, what is what is primarily wrong with marriage today. "Defence of marriage", rather than being about who should marry whom, should be about enforcing the idea that a committment made for life is exactly that, otherwise the commitments should be phrased differently.

If I make a monogamous commitment to someone (which I wouldn't, just sayin') and that person gets very, very sick, then my commitment to that relationship trumps any desire of mine to get laid.

This is (obviously! ;) ) a subject I feel very passionately about - it's showing me that others have a lot more flexible idea of what ethics, integrity and honour mean. So it's showing me that I need to have a few more detailed discussions with my current partners and in future with any potential partners, to find out where they stand on this.

zylya

05-31-2012, 12:32 PM

Right, because having sex is more important than any promise you make, right? :confused:

Sorry, don't buy it.

Most of these people made a solemn vow along the lines of "to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; and I promise to be faithful to you until death parts us."

So those promises suddenly stop meaning anything when sickness comes along? How does THAT work?

Sorry, ethics to me means keeping the promises you made, and what you are describing is most definitely NOT keeping them. You can't single-handedly abandon those promises for whatever reason and then claim to be ethical. The sickness of a partner is almost the worst, least-ethical reason I can think of.

If we're following this line of logic then you can never divorce someone either, since that would be breaking your promises to them (until death part us). You can also never fall out of love with them, since that would be breaking your promise as well (to love and to cherish). So, therefore, by your logic, divorce and falling out of love are as unethical as cheating.

BrigidsDaughter

05-31-2012, 12:59 PM

I can't get the multiquote feature to work, but I wanted to address this.

"Most of these people made a solemn vow along the lines of "to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish; and I promise to be faithful to you until death parts us."

So those promises suddenly stop meaning anything when sickness comes along? How does THAT work?

Sorry, ethics to me means keeping the promises you made, and what you are describing is most definitely NOT keeping them. You can't single-handedly abandon those promises for whatever reason and then claim to be ethical. The sickness of a partner is almost the worst, least-ethical reason I can think of."

I guess to me, if your spouse become ill, incapacitated physically or mentally, and you stay with them, take care of them, etc., than you are keeping to your commitment. Say that they are in a vegetative state; are you saying that you would remain celibate until they die? That you would be able to go for potentially years without having any intimate relationships?

If we're following this line of logic then you can never divorce someone either, since that would be breaking your promises to them (until death part us). You can also never fall out of love with them, since that would be breaking your promise as well (to love and to cherish). So, therefore, by your logic, divorce and falling out of love are as unethical as cheating.

I agree. And that could be the reason for the trend to write ones own vows or exclude parts of traditional vows that no longer fit what people are wanting out of marriage.

In my own vows, I committed to sickness and health and til deal do us part, that we would love, honor, and respect each other, and continue to game together. We didn't do the whole forsaking all others part. And even if we had, we both agreed that it wasn't something we wanted. Alot of the traditional stuff in our vows was for the benefit of our families; to let them keep the illusion of us having a traditional relationship and lifestyle.

CielDuMatin

05-31-2012, 05:17 PM

I guess to me, if your spouse become ill, incapacitated physically or mentally, and you stay with them, take care of them, etc., than you are keeping to your commitment. Say that they are in a vegetative state; are you saying that you would remain celibate until they die? That you would be able to go for potentially years without having any intimate relationships?If that was the agreement that I CHOSE to make with them, then yes, absolutely, because that is exactly what such a vow means. I shouldn't make that promise if I know I can't keep it. I have no such agreement in place, nor would I ever agree to anything like that.

Part of the issue is that everyone feels pressured into making those standard vows, and then has to break them if they don't work out. I would very much like it to be more the norm to actually have a deliberate discussion about the vows and what they mean, so that they CAN be truly lived-by a serious commitment and not one that can be overturned when either love or health fades.

If both parties say to each other that they will make public vows (for the family, and the like) but that there is a different set of vows that they make each other, than that is perfectly fine. I don't care what society thinks, I care about making every effort to keep promises made.

If we're following this line of logic then you can never divorce someone either, since that would be breaking your promises to them (until death part us).Yes, exactly.

You can also never fall out of love with them, since that would be breaking your promise as well (to love and to cherish).Yeah, when you think about it like that, these standard vows are quite ridiculous, aren't they? :)

So, therefore, by your logic, divorce and falling out of love are as unethical as cheating.Marriage vows are a contract, which is a set of promises. If both parties agree to change that, then no harm, no foul - that would include a mutually agreed-upon divorce, realising that they had fallen out of love with each other etc. Single-handedly upping and changing the rules is violating the terms of the agreement that you made with this person. Doing it behind their back is cheating on the rules of the marriage that they agreed to, and is therefore unethical, yes. I am not going to try to get into degrees of ethical behaviour, though.

When it comes to looking in the mirror and deciding what sort of integrity you have, it's important to look at the weight that your promises have in your life. Your marriage vows are a set of promises and should be included in that list.

Look, I'm not trying to make any massive global pronouncements, here - this is just the way I think about promises and commitments and ethics. I'm certainly not presuming to tell anyone else how to live their lives :)

feelyunicorn

06-01-2012, 03:05 AM

Hubby on the other hand doesn't have an issue with it. He feels that there is no way of knowing the extenuating circumstances. He says he would not necessarily become involved directly with someone who is cheating & not being honest. But, he does not think its an issue of character or have an issue to be involved with a partner who is also involved with someone who is cheating with them.I feel like him. I`m not responsible for other people`s relationships. Anyway, meeting women who are openly single or poly is exceedingly rare. I`ve been involved with at least one partner who was married. Actually, more, but one in a regular fashion. I don`t remember how long it lasted. Anywhere between 6 months to 2 years. We were off and on.

That being said, I have never cheated myself. Or, at least, by my ex-girlfriend`s definition I haven`t. I had a scrap with another woman at the beginning of that relationship, before "the so...-where-do-we-stand" talk, and I had my roommate tell her a few times I went to the supermarket when I was with this other girl. Eventually, I told my ex all about it and she released me of all culpability saying simply, that we weren`t committed then. Phew! :D

I think not cheating myself is already a great accomplishment since there is a lot of pressure on men to cheat. I know it`s a strange concept, but I feel women often pressure me to cheat in all manner of passive-aggressive ways.

km34

06-01-2012, 03:32 AM

The definition of cheating, to me, is quite simple - breaking the rules of the relationship that you have. If the SO knows and agrees to what happens and then that happens, then it's not cheating. If someone goes beyond the boundaries agreed-to, then it's cheating.

I guess for me and my own values it's not hard to know. The only time it gets difficult is when the boundaries are left undiscussed, and assumptions are made, based on some sort of societal norms. For this reason I am extremely careful to discuss as many possibilities with my partners before they become an issue, so that we can discuss them with level heads.

Redpepper, yes I read your story and no, it doesn't seem at all hard to know. His partner was not in a position to consent to changing the rules of the promised relationship. I don't think that a lack of ability to consent should constitute a legitimate reason to be able to throw whatever rules out of the window that don't suit at the time.

The whole purpose of a committed relationship is commitment - a set of promises are made with an expectation that those will be honoured by everyone involved. Too many people make promises without really thinking what they mean, and even whether they can really honour that commitment. This is, to me, what is what is primarily wrong with marriage today. "Defence of marriage", rather than being about who should marry whom, should be about enforcing the idea that a commitment made for life is exactly that, otherwise the commitments should be phrased differently.

If I make a monogamous commitment to someone (which I wouldn't, just sayin') and that person gets very, very sick, then my commitment to that relationship trumps any desire of mine to get laid.

This is (obviously! ;) ) a subject I feel very passionately about - it's showing me that others have a lot more flexible idea of what ethics, integrity and honour mean. So it's showing me that I need to have a few more detailed discussions with my current partners and in future with any potential partners, to find out where they stand on this.

I agree with pretty much everything said here. Commitments and vows made to a person should be respected until a mutual decision is reached to change them.

.... And that could be the reason for the trend to write ones own vows or exclude parts of traditional vows that no longer fit what people are wanting out of marriage.

In my own vows, I committed to sickness and health and til deal do us part, that we would love, honor, and respect each other, and continue to game together. We didn't do the whole forsaking all others part. And even if we had, we both agreed that it wasn't something we wanted. Alot of the traditional stuff in our vows was for the benefit of our families; to let them keep the illusion of us having a traditional relationship and lifestyle.

We wrote our own ceremony where we promised to cherish, support, etc. the other "as long as the love may last." :D None of our parents noticed the lack of "til death do us part," but we couldn't in good conscious say it since we have no idea how long we'll love each other or be able to maintain a healthy relationship and once we can't do those things, we'll call it. Sure, we hope it never happens and don't believe it will, but we do believe in being prepared. Kind of like setting up our living wills and such. Wasn't pleasant to think about needing them, but it's nice to know they're there.

redpepper

06-04-2012, 06:32 PM

The whole purpose of a committed relationship is commitment - a set of promises are made with an expectation that those will be honoured by everyone involved. Too many people make promises without really thinking what they mean, and even whether they can really honour that commitment. This is, to me, what is what is primarily wrong with marriage today. "Defence of marriage", rather than being about who should marry whom, should be about enforcing the idea that a committment made for life is exactly that, otherwise the commitments should be phrased differently.

If I make a monogamous commitment to someone (which I wouldn't, just sayin') and that person gets very, very sick, then my commitment to that relationship trumps any desire of mine to get laid.

This is (obviously! ;) ) a subject I feel very passionately about - it's showing me that others have a lot more flexible idea of what ethics, integrity and honour mean. So it's showing me that I need to have a few more detailed discussions with my current partners and in future with any potential partners, to find out where they stand on this.
Yes, I understand this. I agree. Monogamous marriage is a broken system for many. I am also big on integrity and honour too. I am also passionate about this topic, especially right now in my life. All I am trying to convey in sharing the story I did is that its a struggle. This man has so much left to give and to live and a wife that is out of reach mentally and physically. He struggles to do the right thing by her and the right thing by himself. To me its just all around sad and hopeless... I don't at all feel I can be preachy when faced with stories like his.

CielDuMatin

06-05-2012, 01:12 AM

Oh I agree that it can be a struggle. Sticking to the promises we made isn't always easy, but in my opinion that doesn't lessen the promise. I can't say what I would do if I found myself in a situation like that, I don't know if I could be strong enough or have the fortitude to see it through.

But I think that a lot of people get themselves into situations like this because they absolutely don't think about the promises that they are making, and are, effectively, setting themselves up for failure.

Xared

06-09-2012, 01:44 AM

In practice, if one is cheating it usually presents a situation I am not comfortable with, and I will not proceed. In theory though, I am not responsible for the actions of others. Becoming involved with someone who is cheating is usually stupid, but I would not say that it is wrong. I would not outright say that this is a deal breaker, but there would have to be one hell of a good set of extenuating circumstances for me to go along with it. What those circumstances are I can't say. If I find a situation in which I feel comfortable being involved with someone who is cheating, I'll come back to this thread and let everyone know.

Some other things brought up in the thread:

"I'm not interested in liars." I'd rather not be involved with liars myself, but the only way to accomplish that would be to find a nice cozy little cave on the moon to move in to, and once there constantly keep my eyes closed, my fingers in my ears and hum to myself on the off-chance that NASA decided to resume Lunar missions. All people lie, some more than others, but it's something all people do. If I know someone to be a liar, I can pick up on what kinds of things they lie about and can form an understanding of what I can trust them with and what I cannot.

"If they cheated on someone else, they'll cheat on you." It really depends on why they cheated in the first place, and if that reason is present in my relationship with that person. I do not demand exclusivity and I don't believe in veto powers. Cheating on me is pretty much pointless; the only thing it'll accomplish is pissing me off. If someone doesn't feel comfortable discussing their other relationships with me, or if they're just the sort of person that enjoys sneaking around, I would not be involved with them whether or not they're cheating on me.

"I could be in danger if it's discovered." Yeah, that's a possibility. However, this situation is possible even if it's not strictly a result of cheating. With every girl I've dated, there's always someone that wants me out of the picture. An ex-boyfriend that can't admit to himself that it's over, someone with a crush who can't accept that a romantic relationship will never happen, a metamour that tolerates non-exclusivity but doesn't really want it and keeps it to himself. I've been threatened by all these kinds of people. However, I don't negotiate with ass holes.

feelyunicorn

06-09-2012, 02:13 AM

With every girl I've dated, there's always someone that wants me out of the picture. An ex-boyfriend that can't admit to himself that it's over, someone with a crush who can't accept that a romantic relationship will never happen, a metamour that tolerates non-exclusivity but doesn't really want it and keeps it to himself. I've been threatened by all these kinds of people. However, I don't negotiate with ass holes.Yep. Excellent post.

Xared

06-09-2012, 02:34 AM

Yep. Excellent post.
Yeah, that paragraph says a lot about me, doesn't it?

I tend to be attracted to women that are extremely emotionally unstable, who in turn attract other extremely emotionally unstable people, which is probably the source of that kind of thing rather than it being random chance.

I seem to be moving away from that type though, so hopefully finding myself in those kinds of situations will happen less frequently from now on.

feelyunicorn

06-09-2012, 03:06 AM

Yeah, that paragraph says a lot about me, doesn't it?

I tend to be attracted to women that are extremely emotionally unstable, who in turn attract other extremely emotionally unstable people, which is probably the source of that kind of thing rather than it being random chance.

I seem to be moving away from that type though, so hopefully finding myself in those kinds of situations will happen less frequently from now on.I wish you luck. Let me know if you find people who are both attractive and emotionally stable out there. Seems almost unfair to the competition. :D

AnnabelMore

06-10-2012, 11:53 PM

Joreth beaks it down, leaving me nothing to add but "yes, this."

http://joreth.livejournal.com/270911.html

NovemberRain

06-11-2012, 05:10 AM

I have been steadfastly avoiding this thread, even though it keeps popping up. (I read by clicking 'new posts')

I have always held a hard line in regards to cheating, except when I haven't.

I am one of those children raised by crazy and dysfunctional and cheating parents. I have spent way more time than any child should learning about my parents' relationship. My father always cheated on my mother (his words: 'i thought pregnancy sewed it shut'). My mother stayed. Then she decided she couldn't take it anymore and they'd get divorced. She had him back one more time. Guess what he did? She lost her nut and became that crazy woman, who actually did try to deprive him of me (of course, her view was not allowing his immoral ass near me) by moving me to the other side of the country. Not that being deprived of me ever came under his consideration for his actions. I came home from school as a teen not knowing if I would find her alive. That's just not something children should have to do.

I said to him, many years later, 'why did you leave me with that crazy woman?' And he looked me in the eye and said 'we thought trying to get you out would make it worse.' Truthfully, he was probably right. Though, I don't really believe that they agonized over it one bit (him and his gf).

So, I ensured my own integrity by never cheating. And I threw people out of my life for stuff that even remotely looked like cheating. Except for the ones who I didn't. There was one I attempted a triad with ~ but that little cheater had been attempting to seduce us both separately. I have put up with (by many different people) drugs, alcohol, bad checks, lying, broken agreements; but finding a girl in his house? that was the end. I'm sure they hadn't slept together, I doubt they'd kissed. But I was not informed. And I was done.

But yah, now (many years later) he's one of my vee. So, my lines are not nearly as clear as I want them to be. Some of that putting up with bad things is from not working on my own shit. Some of not doing it anymore is from becoming old and tired of it. I'd like to say that it's because I love myself more, but that's just not why.

So, my intention would be to not be with cheaters. I'd like to say that I would drop folks lying to their others. I just can't say for certain.

I'm glad I finally made time and read this thread. It's been very thought-provoking.

Tonberry

06-11-2012, 07:03 PM

I find it interesting that many people who have strong feelings about it are people who used to cheat. I think it's because they're so upset with themselves.

Personally, when I was a teenager, I had sex once with a guy who was in a long term relationship, and slept around with a different woman/girl pretty much every day. He happened to be my first sexual (intercourse) partner and I felt his experience would be a good thing. He was very gentle, respectful and made sure to show me whatever I wanted. It was a good experience.

Now, did I think he was a jerk for cheating? Well, to be honest, at that point of my life, I didn't realise there were people who didn't cheat. I had never cheated (still never have) but I assumed monogamy was a big front people kept, and the difference was in how well you hid your cheating. I didn't feel like a bad person. I knew if it wasn't me, it would be someone else, and I didn't think I was hurting her relationship in any way whatsoever.
Now, years later, almost a decade really... I don't know. I still don't feel bad. I had assumed she knew in some way, because you know, everybody cheats so of course he did, and that she was grateful to him for hiding it. To me, my responsibilities were not telling her since she didn't want to know, and not getting attached to him since he had been honest from the start about the whole situation.

Now that I know some people don't cheat, I wonder if she thought he didn't. I knew the guy, I knew many of the women he had sex with. Hell, he had sex with almost every female he knew (once). I got something out of it, he got something out of it, I didn't think about it twice.

I never thought she was evil, or hurting him, or anything. For all I know she was a good person. I figured I would also grow up to marry a man who was amazing (he certainly was a great friend and a great person. And yes, also a cheater.) and that this man who cheat on me with everything that moved. And that it was the way things were, but the one he married was me, so why would I care who he had sex with? And that apparently, hiding it was a form of love and respect, so he would hide it.

Then, you know, I changed my perspectives. I realised some people don't cheat, and they're not just better liars. It came up as a big surprise. All the happy couples I had assumed were cheating, I started wondering if maybe they weren't. And later when I learned about polyamory I realised that it was what I wanted all along. And that maybe the fact I didn't care who my partners had sex with could be a result of being polyamorous. Maybe other people actually cared.

Now that I have said openly that I don't want lies, that I don't care if he has sex as long as he tells me, it would hurt if he did it behind my back. But in a monogamous relationship, I don't think it would have hurt. I always assumed it was going on anyways, or would be.

I haven't been with another cheater, and I wouldn't now that I'm polyamorous, because I would want to interact with the partner, and I wouldn't want anything to do with drama. But I also know if I was in a coma, I wouldn't want my partners to stop having new partners, or to refrain from having sex with people I was not, could not be aware of. If I woke up from a coma and they said they had refrained all that time, I would certainly be upset with them. Because they would have made themselves miserable, and making me into the bad guy, since I was the reason behind it.
And I have never told them that, never thought to tell them that. I assumed it went without saying. I'll make sure to tell them, now, but if I hadn't had time to, and they had done it, many people here in this thread would have condemned them, and the person they would have dated, as terrible people, even though it's what I would have wanted. And that upsets me.

kdt26417

06-11-2012, 09:09 PM

I don't recommend cheating, and, I don't recommend getting involved with someone who is cheating (which would, IMO, just make you a co-cheater with that person). However, it has been my experience that many of my own blanket statements have been overturned by specific instances. So I have to know all the relative details about a particular situation before I can pass judgment on it.

I would emphasize that traditional monogamous marriage often has a lot of dysfunctional social conditioning tied into it. Lots of people grow up being taught to believe that the standard marital vows are always perfectly natural and realistic. Sometimes people change, even when they never would have dreamed that they'd ever change to that extent.

As a former Latter-day Saint, I made solemn promises in the temple that absolutely forbade me to ever become less than 100% loyal to the church, for the rest of my life (and beyond). Seeing that I've left the church, I obviously broke those promises. I had my reasons (or rationalizations); primarily, finding out that the church I believed I was committing to was not the church that actually exists. So in semantic terms, I didn't break the promises I thought I had made. But my point here is that it's not always so simple to judge an individual situation, even when the precepts involved seem 100% clear.

I believe there is quite a range of circumstances in which cheating occurs. Some cases of cheating are relatively venial, while others are despicable. All involve dishonesty, lack of consent, or both, by definition. So I wouldn't recommend cheating (or involvement with cheating), but I also wouldn't be too quick to pass any blanket judgment on it.

I'll also doubly caution people about the commitments they make. I myself am in a committed poly relationship, but the vows I made to it are like a special exception to the rules I've learned about life. Any promise is, by definition, an attempt to predict (one aspect of) the future. I just would say, be really careful about that.

Xared

06-11-2012, 09:31 PM

The concept of cheating being okay sometimes has been mentioned a few times in this thread, mostly to do with terminal or prolonged illness. I thought of something else that I would consider "justifiable cheating." I meant to mention it in my first post in this thread, but couldn't think of a way to work it in with what else I wrote.

If one is treating their partner abusively, as far as I'm concerned, they give up any expectation of honesty or promise-keeping from the target of their abuse. This is probably the only situation in which I would be comfortable participating in cheating. I've done this once before. However, if I do it again, I'll need to actually see the abuse taking place. When it happened before I took her word for it and it turned out she was lying to manipulate me after I turned her down the first dozen or so times. She was actually abusing him, and later me.

This definitely falls under the "not unethical but definitely stupid" category, and I doubt I'd do it again, but from a purely theoretical standpoint I do not feel it is unethical.

lovefromgirl

06-11-2012, 09:50 PM

This definitely falls under the "not unethical but definitely stupid" category, and I doubt I'd do it again, but from a purely theoretical standpoint I do not feel it is unethical.

I do. What about the repercussions for the one doing the cheating in that situation? (e.g. do you WANT your partner bludgeoned when hir spouse finds out?) And how is it ethical to get involved with someone who's being abused, but make no attempt to help hir get away?

Tonberry

06-11-2012, 10:22 PM

I would actually think it an additional reason against cheating. If someone is in a situation where they are in danger, I will not contribute to the danger. I will not date them and justify their staying in the relationship. I would make leaving the relationship a condition for dating me, and for staying my friend. Hell, I wouldn't even make it a condition for anything, but an obligation, and I would do it for them if needed.

I don't think you can honestly have someone as a partner, or a friend, and let them be in an abusive relationship. It doesn't seem right at all.

Xared

06-11-2012, 10:42 PM

When I find out that abuse is going on in a relationship, my primary concern is helping the victim get out of the situation. Usually, the thought of becoming romantically involved with the person doesn't even cross my mind. When it does, I do my best to set those feelings aside at least until the situation is over with. Most of the times I've been in the situation and I was interested in the person, afterward it doesn't feel right to pursue romance.

If physical abuse is going on, I try to get them away as fast as possible and don't have time for anything else. More often though, what I see is emotional or psychological abuse, which is more difficult to deal with and takes longer. Most of the time, the victim doesn't realize their being abused. The abuser, however, usually wants me out of the picture and act like dickheads no matter what I do.

As far as provoking the abuser, they usually don't need an excuse. Attempting to get the victim out can provoke them as well.

There are other ethical concerns. It's been pointed out to me before that it's possible that I'm imagining abuse because I want justification in "stealing" someone's girlfriend. However, this was pointed out to me by an abuser, shortly after he suggested I have a secondary relationship with his girlfriend, so, I don't know how much weight his observation carries, or really what his point was since he already said I could be involved with her... Anyway, my point was, abusers suck. I wasn't describing how I typically go about handling abusive situations.

lovefromgirl

06-11-2012, 10:53 PM

If physical abuse is going on, I try to get them away as fast as possible and don't have time for anything else. More often though, what I see is emotional or psychological abuse, which is more difficult to deal with and takes longer. Most of the time, the victim doesn't realize their being abused. The abuser, however, usually wants me out of the picture and act like dickheads no matter what I do.

I did. And my situation (admittedly not a relationship) could so easily have been rectified, had anyone believed it was as simple as removing me from the proximity of my abuser. All that mindset accomplished was me withdrawing my trust from all but about three people in my life. When in doubt? Please ask whether the victim understands what's going on, instead of assuming.

As far as provoking the abuser, they usually don't need an excuse. Attempting to get the victim out can provoke them as well.

Which is why you work with professionals on this. I didn't say "march up to the abuser and have a great big pissing contest about who gets the victim". Stupid about these things I ain't. What has your approach been so far on helping people out of abusive situations?

Xared

06-12-2012, 01:26 AM

I did. And my situation (admittedly not a relationship) could so easily have been rectified, had anyone believed it was as simple as removing me from the proximity of my abuser. All that mindset accomplished was me withdrawing my trust from all but about three people in my life. When in doubt? Please ask whether the victim understands what's going on, instead of assuming.
From the way that's worded, I take it you're out of the situation. I'm glad to hear that, and I know exactly what you're talking about; I've lived it. My father was extremely psychologically abusive, and my first girlfriend was emotionally abusive and later became physically abusive. When I tried to talk to others about it, they would deny any abuse was going on and I was promptly told to "stop being a whiny little bitch." As a result, I have few people I trust as well. My statement abut people not realizing it's going on is from reflection on past experiences. I don't make assumptions beforehand.

Which is why you work with professionals on this. I didn't say "march up to the abuser and have a great big pissing contest about who gets the victim". Stupid about these things I ain't. What has your approach been so far on helping people out of abusive situations?
I'm actually in the process of becoming a professional. Well, relationship counseling/sex therapy, but this issue will come up. And yes, I do realize that taking a few psychology classes does not make me an expert. As for my approach, it depends on the situation. I usually start by pointing out the abuser's behavior and asking how the victim feels about it. From there, it can go any number of ways. If it's not something I can handle myself, I refer them to Turning Point (http://www.turningpointmacomb.org) or a similar organization.

The situation that I've run into most often, and the most difficult I've found to deal with, is a female victim and a passive-aggressive emotionally abusive male. At the very least she realizes she's being treated poorly, even if she won't acknowledge abusive behavior, and she wants out of the relationship. Unfortunately, they live together, and he has "no where else to go." Whenever she tries to end things, he breaks down into tears and tries to make her feel bad about it. Once or twice, the guy has threatened suicide if she left him.

A few years ago, a co-worker of mine was in one of these situations. She wanted him out, but was afraid she'd fail and things would get worse. She made a few different arrangements if things got bad and she needed to leave, but was hesitant to do anything more permanent. Eventually, I said "Yeah, kicking him out is going to be difficult, but it'll be short, and then over. If you don't do it, you'll be miserable indefinitely. which seems like the better option to you?" Surprisingly, that got through to her. A few days later she went through with it, and she's been happier since. That was the easiest that particular situation has ever been, and it took several months.

Anyway, my point was I have no tolerance or respect for abusers and therefore don't see cheating on them as a betrayal of trust, not that it was a good idea. In fact, I recall describing doing so as "definitely stupid."

lovefromgirl

06-12-2012, 02:22 AM

When I tried to talk to others about it, they would deny any abuse was going on and I was promptly told to "stop being a whiny little bitch." As a result, I have few people I trust as well. My statement abut people not realizing it's going on is from reflection on past experiences.

You know exactly what it's like, then. Okay. I hate that I can run into someone on a forum who does, but at least we're both out. That's important. And because I know men can be hit with it, too, I am trying to keep gender as neutral as possible. I knew a woman who did this to a male friend of mine, except that all of our friends put up with it. I didn't. Me against the silence of the entire community--sod it, they could untangle him. I was done.

I'm actually in the process of becoming a professional. Well, relationship counseling/sex therapy, but this issue will come up.

Inevitably, yes. I'm looking to enter social work, so... ditto.

And yes, I do realize that taking a few psychology classes does not make me an expert. As for my approach, it depends on the situation. I usually start by pointing out the abuser's behavior and asking how the victim feels about it. From there, it can go any number of ways. If it's not something I can handle myself, I refer them to Turning Point (http://www.turningpointmacomb.org) or a similar organization.

Actually, if the victim won't or can't approach a licensed professional, a friend who gets it is a good beginning. As long as we know when we're in over our heads! :)

Unfortunately, they live together, and he has "no where else to go."

Under the nearest on-ramp is just fine for vermin like that. I am biased, yes.

Eventually, I said "Yeah, kicking him out is going to be difficult, but it'll be short, and then over. If you don't do it, you'll be miserable indefinitely. which seems like the better option to you?" Surprisingly, that got through to her. A few days later she went through with it, and she's been happier since. That was the easiest that particular situation has ever been, and it took several months.

All about finding the key, isn't it? I'm glad you could. I'm glad she could, too.

I guess my other qualm about sleeping with victims of abuse is this: they often needs to find themselves again after a long codependent period. I remember not having much of an identity except "angry, ambitious eighth-grader." It got me a trip to D.C. and a fair few accolades in my school's music program, but not much else. Only after years of therapy and finding out who I was underneath all that baggage was I a suitable partner to anyone. Speaking as a woman who went through such major breaches of trust, I had no idea what constituted healthy boundaries. (Complicating matters further, my parents weren't exactly demonstrating good relationship skills...) So at the very least, between abuse and new relationship, put "therapy"!

This I now trust you to know, but for the benefit of completing the conversation, I want to put it out there.