Having trouble adjusting to husband's new girlfriend

[Fiona]

Just what it sounds like. In the past, I've had my own insecurities about people my husband has dated, but I've recognized them as exactly that and dealt with them accordingly.

This new person just makes me uneasy. She seems like a lot of drama, most of which I won't get into here. There are a few major issues for me, including that they broke one of our fundamental agreements at the beginning of their involvement, they spend most of their time together drinking heavily, she has expressed frustration/impatience if my husband or I contact each other when they're hanging out (it doesn't happen often, but sometimes it can't be avoided) and a few other things that set off alarm bells for me, including that she has never been in a poly relationship before and doesn't seem to have any idea how to handle...well, anything. I am tired of feeling like her poly experiment.

This situation has caused trouble not only in my relationship with my husband, but even in the one between me and my other partner. This makes me feel angry and helpless.

When I try to talk to my husband about this, he gets very defensive and asks if I want him to break up with her. I'm not sure; on one hand, I guess I do. On the other, I don't want to play that card unless I absolutely have to - it doesn't seem like it'll fix anything now. Sigh. But I don't like her, and I don't feel like I can trust her (or my husband) either.

Had a similar experience? Any advice to offer? Thank you in advance.

[ViableAlternative]

Through most of your post, I was thinking about how I'd normally think/say something like how you're not dating her, you don't need to trust her, you only need to trust your husband. Express your concerns to him and set boundaries about not allowing her drama into your relationship, and let him handle his own relationships. But then you said:

and I don't feel like I can trust her (or my husband) either.

Though you put "or my husband" in parentheses, as though it is an aside, it's a big deal. It's not a trifle. It's important. And telling. And scary. This needs to be resolved, and fast.

What do you not trust, and why? What needs to happen for him to gain (or regain) your trust?

In general, for my own relationships, I just trust my partners and let them deal with their significant others; there's no reason for me to need to trust the significant others BECAUSE I have trust in my partner's capability to manage relationships.

I'd also be especially concerned about how/why this girl's drama has spilled into your relationship with your husband, and with your other partner. This should be unnecessary. Can you give examples of how this has happened, and what impact it's had?

[opalescent]

Maybe reframe it? Make it less about her presence in your spouse's life and more about how his behavior had resulted in uneasiness and less trust in the relationship between you and he? The drinking heavily and breaking of agreements right away is concerning. Perhaps focus more on that than her specifically. You are right - if he does this with the next girlfriend than you are back where you started. Has he done similar actions with other partners? Or just lost his mind where she is concerned?

[Fiona]

Thank you for your responses. My husband hasn't behaved this way with other people; he really does seem to have lost his mind when it comes to her.

As for the not trusting: they broke one of mine and my husband's major agreements (no oral sex or intercourse until both parties have been tested) while they were drunk. This is a HUGE red flag to me.

There was a situation in which her actions (or lack thereof) affected me, my husband, and my partner; my evening with my partner (and a very emotional and much-needed discussion) was interrupted because she forgot something at home and my husband was insisting that I bring the car home so he could take her to her place. I did, and was very resentful about it, and my partner was extremely uncomfortable with the whole thing. She didn't even apologize for inconveniencing us.

She and my husband had a condom break, and thank god she can't get pregnant (or so she says) but I didn't find out about this until almost a week later. I was livid and felt like he had been lying to me (though he says he didn't want to tell me when I was out of town.)

I don't even know if I'm being unreasonable anymore. I can't think objectively about this at all. I don't think that she is adding anything to my husband's life except stress and drama. I don't know what would have to happen for me to trust him again, but I have been reluctant to be close to him or spend much time with him lately. He has been jealous of my other relationship, and I wonder if he's trying to get back at me in some way (though, for what? For having a happy, stable, loving, honest outside relationship? That seems ridiculous.)

[Derbylicious]

The only person you can control in any situation is yourself. If he's being unsafe sexually you can insist that he uses condoms with you. For sure he isn't making good desisions right now. He's wrapped up in NRE. Chances are it will pass and once the shine wears off he'll probably wonder why he ever decided to be with her.

I think since he has a track record of conducting himself well in other poly relationships that he will come around eventually. You need to do whatever it is that you need to do to protect yourself emotionally and physically. I don't know what that is going to look like for you because it's different for everyone. Let him know what your personal boundaries are and why they are in place.

[Fiona]

Derbylicious, that's a very good point, and helps me to feel somewhat less panicky about the whole thing. And we always use condoms anyway, so that's taken care of, at least.

I really appreciate some perspective on this; thanks so much to everyone who has replied.

[Windstar]

Wow, I really feel for you.

"I have been reluctant to be close to him or spend much time with him lately. He has been jealous of my other relationship, and I wonder if he's trying to get back at me in some way"

That is scary to me. I have seen many relationships go sour very quickly when this type of dynamic takes root. I would nip it in the bud strongly or fear that it grow very big very quickly and be harder to remedy later.

There is nothing wrong with vetoing her. They broke a core rule. She is causing your primary relationship trouble. That is what a veto is for. If you can't use it when you need to use it then it's no good bothering to talk about even the concept of being able to veto.

I would say to use it. Veto her. See where his head and priorities are. It will clarify things for you. Not fun, but not worse than the mire you are trudging through right now.

For what it's worth and nothing more.

Blessings.
WindStar

[mostlyclueless]

Take my advice with a grain of salt. I have no idea what I am talking about.

That said -- what does your husband say when you bring up these issues with him? Have you asked him what he gains from the relationship? It sounds like you have expressed your discomfort to him -- have you told him that you don't want to use your veto, but you would prefer that they stop seeing each other?

You said in your first post he got defensive when you talked about it. Do you think there is a way to change the mode of communication so he doesn't feel as defensive?

[nycindie]

I think that, perhaps, the issue can be helped if you are clear about your personal boundaries and make sure that everyone knows there are consequences for crossing them.

As for handling how upsetting this can be for you, your post reminded me of an email I got recently. I subscribe to a newsletter from a life coach about recovering from divorce (how pathetic am I?) and in the latest one, there's an article about not putting up with an ex's "bad behavior." I think some of what it said can apply in many relationships/dynamics. Here are a few tidbits (just substitute the word "ex" with any problematic person, as in a drama queen metamour or overly-defensive hubby ;). I took out some wording specific to divorce.) :

"It's all about boundaries. If you are to heal, let go, and move on... you must create a safe and secure environment for yourself. No one else can do this for you. You must take back control of your life.

The first step is to determine what the upsets are that keep you stuck and emotionally reactive.

Start a Deficit Journal

Begin noticing what causes you upset or any other negative emotion. For instance:

If you talk to your ex [or lover/spouse/metamour, etc.] and always end up with a negative reaction, that's an entry.
If your ex becomes angry when you speak, that's an entry.
If drinking 5 cups of coffee makes you feel badly, that's an entry.

Next, look at a specific entry, and determine how you can eliminate or control it. ...we can set boundaries that protect us.

For example, if when talking to your ex on the phone, he or she gets angry and abusive, it's time to explain to them your new boundary. Here is what you might say:

"Right now you're angry, and you're being abusive to me. That is something that I can no longer accept. Being emotional serves neither of us. I want you to know that when you become angry and abusive, I will end the conversation. I don't want it to be a surprise to you in the future if I hang up."

This concept can apply to your email and texts, too. The minute a communication gets ugly, delete! Always make certain that you have explained your boundaries, because what you are doing is a bit like Pavlovian conditioning: you are training your ex in proper behavior. Remember:

You must be consistent.
You must always outline boundaries.
You must do this to create a healing environment for yourself if you are to recover...

You can use this concept of boundaries in every area of your life. It is up to you and you alone to establish what you will and will not accept in your life.

Remember that what you say "no" to defines you as a human being. When you say "no" to abuse, you go from being a victim to a hero or heroine. You take back your self-respect and self-esteem. You empower yourself."

I think it is obvious that all the above relies on honest, clear, and direct communication. Later in the newsletter there is this great little list:

The Steps to Stopping Bad Behavior

Set the rules.
Be consistent.
Explain the consequences and abide by them.
Stay Calm. You too have to walk away from your own bad behavior.
Make certain that your ex knows what he or she is doing wrong.
Offer a positive alternative. If your ex yells at you, ask them to speak nicely.
Recognize their effort and acknowledge good behavior.

I don't know if this will help, or even if you think this might apply to you, but it came to my mind while reading how upset and frustrated you are over this, so hopefully some part of it can be useful.

[redpepper]

Poly with heirarchy and veto rights is not how I roll, so it would be out of the question. I am not okay with someone telling me to dump someone because THEY are struggling. Not my husband, not anyone. So I don't ask for that in return. I have earned my integrity and my partners trust that I have their best interest in mind in all that I do. Vetos are built out of fear and lack of trust. I don't find that a useful way to live.

Your impatience, frustration and need for "no drama" is no reason to insist he end it. Its not for you to decide. You have no control and shouldn't have control of his life and choices. If he decides its not worth it because you keep telling him what's going on for you and how they're actions affect you and others then that would mean its been up to him. As it should be I think.

We have discussed vetos here at length if you are interested in why anyone would avoid them. Try a tag search on "veto" "vetos" "veto rights" "veto power"

To me this woman just sounds new to poly and your husband; smitten. They fucked up. It happens. What they do about it and what boundaries are agreed upon as a result are what is important. What are they doing to ensure that you can trust them? Integrity is so important in poly dynamics. It takes time to build and even more time when someone fucks up on an agreement.

I would be letting them know that you won't be rescuing them by cutting into your date time again either. It seems that they weren't all that grateful anyway so why bother. You got nothing out of it that was positive so why allow that to happen again.

I think I would find some empathy in this and remind myself what its like to be sucked in by someone that is new and exciting in your life. I would remind myself that I am dealing with two people drunk on emotions etc. And do my best to laugh it off. This is possible, I think, with firm boundaries constructed from the experience you have with them together.

[Fiona]

Thanks again for your thoughtful replies. I feel like I have a lot to think about and process.

I've realized that part (though by no means all) of the problem is due to my insecurities as well as past hurts and distrust, and it's sort of been exacerbated by my husband's and his girlfriend's behavior of late.

And my partner has decided recently that he wants to talk to me more about other people. I have no desire to limit or control anyone's behavior, any more than I want that done to me, but I'm a bit overwhelmed by everything that's been happening. Between my husband's behavior and my partner's insistence that I talk about the people he's interested in (I do tend to just sort of shut down when he mentions these things - I'm not angry, and I want him to be free to do what he wants, I just have no idea how to respond to him talking about other women) I'm just sort of sad and panicky. I've been feeling like I won't be important to the people I love anymore and that my needs and wants will be ignored.

So, lots to think about. I just keep thinking that the only person I can control is myself, and I'm going to take care of myself and choose to be strong and as calm as I can. I will get through this, and probably be better for it. I had a lovely night out last night with my partner, which helped immensely.

Other thoughts or advice are of course very welcome.

[nycindie]

You know, you should clearly state that you are uncomfortable hearing too much detail about women he is interested in. Many people in poly situations have a boundary about that, and he shouldn't assume that in the interest of honesty and full disclosure that he MUST tell you everything. He should respect your tolerance level, and it's perfectly reasonable to only want to know who he's with, when he goes out, when he'll be home, and if he had a good time, and general stuff that would affect you and your time together, without describing issues they deal with or the nitty-gritty details. He doesn't need to report back to you, let him develop the relationship on its own. There are also privacy issues for his girlfriend - maybe she wouldn't like every little detail shared with you, either.

Is he looking for feedback or approval from you or is he just excited? He may be so excited about her, and wrapped up in NRE, that he doesn't realize how much you don't like it. And he'll never know if you don't tell him. You can say something like, "Honey, I'm happy that you're so excited about this relationship and I want to be supportive, but there is only so much information and details I can handle. I would rather you not tell me so much, it makes me uncomfortable. But I would like to hear about such-and-such" and tell him exactly what you are willing to discuss or listen to.

And perhaps you could look for a local poly group to join so he has other people to talk to about it, which would unburden you.

[Fiona]

Sorry, I feel like I wasn't very clear in that last post. My husband doesn't tell me much about his girlfriend, beyond need-to-know stuff; he knows what I'm comfortable (or not) hearing/knowing.

My (male) partner is the one who seems to want a different reaction from me when he's talking about other women. We've discussed this a lot recently; I've explained that I have some insecurities about this, which have only been exacerbated lately by my husband and his girlfriend. He wants me to be able to talk about this stuff with him and "be happy" about it. I feel like I can't right now; I would never expect him not to be interested in other people, but I'm having a hard time with it lately. (We've also been together for nearly a year, and he's been pretty focused on our relationship, to the point that he hasn't really been dating much at all. I think he's fearful of the idea of loss of autonomy, but that doesn't really make sense to me - I don't want him to be with only me, but I also have little to no experience with him being with anyone else, and sometimes new = scary.)

Oh! And a local poly group is a fantastic idea. Thank you.

[CielDuMatin]

I think that one of the key things in here is about having negotiated consequences as well as negotiated boundaries.

At the time you both agree on the boundaries, then you need to put a "and this is what's going to happen if those are broken" in there, so that consequences are understood. Sometimes those aren't easy to come up with, and they're usually easier if they are logical and concrete (and stuff like this rarely is). Poly is a learning process, because each individual has different requirements and boundaries - looks like you are most definitely learning yours. An example is what happens if a condom breaks when he is with her...

Your husband has broken your trust and your agreements at the very start of this relationship - that's going to make it an uphill battle. I'm really not sure that this is standard NRE stuff - this goes well beyond the cute silliness that is associated with that and into some far more serious territory.

[nycindie]

Sorry, I feel like I wasn't very clear in that last post. My husband doesn't tell me much about his girlfriend, beyond need-to-know stuff...

My (male) partner is the one who seems to want a different reaction from me when he's talking about other women.

Well, I think my suggestion works for either one of them. Just tell him that, although you'll probably eventually be more comfortable with it, for now you just don't want to hear all that stuff! What keeps you from telling him you have a hard time with it?

[Fiona]

nycindie, I have told my partner this. He tells me that he wants me to be happy about his other involvements (if/when they happen) and wants to be able to talk to me about them (to a point; I have also expressed that I don't need/want every single detail.)

I feel like we're at a stalemate here. I do believe that time and acclimation will be the only thing for it, but I'm having a hard time right now and kind of dreading a festival that we're going to over the summer; I've never been in that kind of environment with him and am worried about feeling displaced or abandoned. And he seems to feel that much of my reluctance to discuss this means that I don't want him being involved with anyone else. I've never been in a situation like this before, and I'm not really sure how else to deal with it.

[opalescent]

Compersion is nice but not required. It happens or not and it is certainly not something to be commanded or demanded. Your boyfriend cannot require you to be happy about anything, much less his other relationships. You can be supportive and loving of him and his other relationships of course but that is different from being happy for him. Maybe he does not feel as supported as he would like? Otherwise it just strikes as such an odd thing, to demand a particular emotion from someone for a certain circumstance.

[Fiona]

opalescent, I imagine he probably doesn't feel as supported as he'd like right now, but that's less to do with him than I think I've been able to make him understand. And yes, it strikes me as a bit odd too, but there is a significant age difference at play here (10+ years) and I don't think that he's experienced the sort of societal/familial conditioning about relationships that I have. We're coming from very different places, and sometimes it really shows.

[newtoday]

Poly with heirarchy and veto rights is not how I roll, so it would be out of the question. I am not okay with someone telling me to dump someone because THEY are struggling. Not my husband, not anyone. So I don't ask for that in return. I have earned my integrity and my partners trust that I have their best interest in mind in all that I do. Vetos are built out of fear and lack of trust. I don't find that a useful way to live.

RP - I just wanted to THANK YOU for saying this.

I just replied to another post on here by a girl who was veto'd and is hurting because of it.

Nothing about veto'ing someone you have invited into your partner's life sounds right. You trust your partner to go down the poly path, you should trust that they make the decisions they need to make to respect both individual relationships.

If you don't trust in their decision making abilities, you should question your decision to participate in a poly lifestyle period.

[Fiona]

Resurrecting this because I'm still having issues. I am at a loss. As I posted in another thread recently...

"(My husband and his girlfriend) are both extroverts and don't seem to understand my need for privacy and a bit of distance. I've tried to communicate this to both of them, with mixed results. At first, she was overly involved in my life and wanted us to be close very quickly; I'm simply not comfortable with this and said so. Now, after a few incidents in which I felt she was being pushy and rude, she has been extremely distant and communication, never good to begin with, has suffered because of it. My last straw was her talking to MY partner (not my husband) and telling him that I had said/done things that I hadn't (i.e. Fiona said this is a rule and I can't do it - which is ridiculous, my husband and I don't conduct our relationship that way.) My partner was puzzled and uncomfortable by her behavior; I'm at a total loss as to what to do (or not do) and am pretty angry and frustrated about this."

I just. Don't. Like. Her. I don't really like who my husband is when he's with her. He does seem happy, but I'm puzzled as to how he can be with someone who is so immature and drama-llama-esque. She's rude to me, and very rigid in her views of how poly relationships should work; when our interactions don't fit this, I feel like she takes it out on me. I pretty much just want to be left alone at this point, but when I saw her at a party last week, she blurted out that she thought we needed to talk at some point. I half-agreed (I'd had a few drinks) and am now regretting even that.

What do you do when one of your partners is dating someone you don't like? I don't discount the possibility that we could end up being friendly, but I'm damned if I can see just how that would happen right now. Sigh. My husband is all stressed out by this, and so is my partner (can't blame him, after Girlfriend had that totally inappropriate conversation with him) and so am I. I'm just sick of the whole thing. It's getting to the point where I get knots in my stomach just thinking about it.

I wouldn't ask my husband to break up with her, any more than I would break up with my partner if he asked - we don't work that way. But I don't know how to handle this either.

[NovemberRain]

Sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. I've been contemplating a lot lately about how difficult it is for me, an extravert, to be with a bf who is a serious introvert.

I'm at a total loss as to what to do (or not do) and am pretty angry and frustrated about this."
...

What do you do when one of your partners is dating someone you don't like? ...
....

But I don't know how to handle this either.

Just a suggestion:

'Dear Llama, Dear hubs, I know that you want more interactions with me, and you want my happiness to coincide with yours. In case you haven't noticed, I'm a bit introverted. This does not mean I'm unhappy, it means I need a lot of time to myself. Please quit trying to make me into a version of you, and recognize that I am who am.'

or

'Dear husband, I'm so happy you have a happy OSO relationship. I am not in that relationship, and I need you and her to stop trying to make me be in that relationship. {again with the introvert speech]'

Actually, in another thread I just read, they were talking about boundaries and consequences. Feel free to add some of those.

'Please don't drag me into your relationship. when you do, I will remove myself with a book for an hour.' or whatever.


I was a poly meeting last week, and somebody said the first answer to every question is 'Communication, communication, communication,' and after that you can get into specifics. :D


Also, a perspective for you, from an extravert: I realized that in the absence of actual info from my introvert, I make up stories. Unfortunately, I make up the worst stories possible. (I've realized that's completely mine to work on) But perhaps they are frustrated because they're unsure what's going on with you when you're distant/or just being alone.

[Emm]

Extroverts tend to assume introverts are broken, and often try to "fix" us. Perhaps an article on How to Care for Your Introvert (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2003/03/caring-for-your-introvert/2696/) (also available in a Wikihow version (http://www.wikihow.com/Care-for-Your-Introvert)) might help your husband and metamour realise you don't need fixing.

[Fiona]

Thanks, you guys, your words are helpful. Emm, I love that article and have shown it to my husband before. I think there's a lot of other stuff going on here, including me feeling like my life is dictated by other peoples' schedules; it's extremely difficult for me to not only have enough time to myself, but to have hardly any time with my husband and my partner. I get panicky and sad about it all, and I'm sure that I lash out and get disproportionately angry about some things.

Last night, I spent time with my partner (which was negatively influenced by the argument my husband and I had before I left); today, as I left my partner, we got into a difficult discussion and I was late getting home, which meant that my husband was late picking up his girlfriend, and I feel like the fallout from this is going to last for weeks. Sigh. I hate this. It feels like there's always some sort of issue going on that needs to be discussed; I'd just like a bit of a breather from time to time!

[nycindie]

If nothing seems to be getting through to them, you could show your husband and his gf this thread. Maybe seeing other people's perspectives, as well as yours, will help illuminate things for them.

[Fiona]

Thanks, nycindie, that's a good idea. I don't communicate much with the girlfriend, but I could show it to my husband, and he could show it to her.

I wonder just how much communication I should have with her. As I said, she started out wanting to be very buddy-buddy very quickly; I just don't work that way, and it made me uncomfortable. In addition, she has said and done things that made me very uncomfortable (including making a remark in my presence - and my husband's - about giving my husband a blowjob. Seriously?)

When my husband and I were talking the other day, I said something about not liking her much, and he replied, "Well, she doesn't like you either." That felt weird. I feel like all I've tried to do is limit my interactions with her, and all of sudden she dislikes me? I am friendly with the other person she's currently seeing, and have heard that his wife has issues with her as well. I wish I could think of a way to smooth things over, if only because I think it's hard on my husband that we dislike each other. Sigh.

[nycindie]

I am friendly with the other person she's currently seeing, and have heard that his wife has issues with her as well.
She sounds like a bull in a china shop, unaware of the mess she makes.I wish I could think of a way to smooth things over, if only because I think it's hard on my husband that we dislike each other. Sigh.Is he all caught up in NRE over her? (I forget if you mentioned that) If so, it will be hard to get through. But maybe if you talk to the wife of her other lover, you two may be able to come up with ways to support each other while each of you has issues with her, and deal with her sort of as a cohesive team (???), and then you won't be seeming like haranguing your spouses about her. I dunno, just a thought.

[mercury]

What do you do when one of your partners is dating someone you don't like? I don't discount the possibility that we could end up being friendly, but I'm damned if I can see just how that would happen right now. Sigh. My husband is all stressed out by this, and so is my partner (can't blame him, after Girlfriend had that totally inappropriate conversation with him) and so am I. I'm just sick of the whole thing. It's getting to the point where I get knots in my stomach just thinking about it.

I wouldn't ask my husband to break up with her, any more than I would break up with my partner if he asked - we don't work that way. But I don't know how to handle this either.

Since you say that you and your husband aren't the types to make each other break up with other partners, I'd say you have to just not like the person. I guess I wonder why you even have to like the person in the first place? He's the one in a relationship with her, not you. And you're the one in a relationship with your male partner, not your husband. I know that's all easier said than done, but I really do fail to see why there has to be "liking."

Our regular friends sometimes date people who aren't awesome to us. Sometimes we don't like the person. But...usually it's not that big a deal.

I guess i tend to think when a poly person says they "don't like" a husband or wife's mate, that it is coming from jealousy or resentment, even if just a little. I don't want to presume, but you know, it's only natural. The truth is, most men and women in general don't fall into any extreme likable or dislikable category. Most people fall into at least a general "he's alright" category.

To put it in perspective, when I first started dating a guy who was in a polyamorous relationship, I knew his girlfriend already. In fact, I"d known her for two years already (distantly). I never had anything much for or against her except for (just a little) thinking she was kind of a snob. But when I started dating her boyfriend, I have to say...the 'not liking' came out a bit more than it ever had before. Just a little. She and I had so little interaction. I wouldn't say she did anything wrong at all. But I liked her less when we were dating the same guy.

I dunno....I guess I'm just saying that I see SO much "I don't like her" on this board coming from women about their husbands' partners. And there's always some qualification like "And it's not jealousy, it's that...she makes me uneasy."

Or...just something.

I tend to think there'd be absolutely nothing (or very little, anyway) wrong with these women if they weren't dating your husband. If she's "dramatic," it's because you guys are in a dramatic situation that pits your ego and needs against hers. It's not because her personality is just naturally dramatic. Not necessarily. I mean, she probably thinks *you're* dramatic because you guys are experiencing drama with each other.

[JaneQSmythe]

I tend to think there'd be absolutely nothing (or very little, anyway) wrong with these women if they weren't dating your husband. If she's "dramatic," it's because you guys are in a dramatic situation that pits your ego and needs against hers. It's not because her personality is just naturally dramatic.

I don't know...There are lots of women (and a few men) that seem very "dramatic" to me - their lives just seem to go from one crisis to another (not just romantically). Dude's ex-girlfriend (CrazyGirl) is like this. Several times a week she would call with some "damsel in distress" call - someone was in the hospital, someone was arrested, she lost her lisence, she locked herself out of her house, she went on a date and almost got date-raped (6 times in a 3 month period), she lost her friends at a concert and can't get home, etc. etc. Maybe she just has bad luck but it seems to me that some people don't seem to consider the consequences of their actions, fail to consider back-up strategies, and overall frenetically race through life with little regard for Murphy's Law (and their own safety).

Don't get me wrong – it's nice to know that you can call on your partner(s)/ friends(s) in need. Just last week MrS got to play “knight-in-shining armor” when the exhaust on my car decided to half fall off half-way to work. He brought me the other car (and the carjack and bailing wire to hold up the exhaust so he could drive it home) gave me a kiss and sent me on my way. Now what if MrS (or Dude) had not answered the phone, or answered the phone and were busy with something else important? STILL not a crisis. Plan B – call one of the girls at work to come get me, go to work and call a tow truck, make arrangements to rent or borrow a car, go on with my day. No crisis.

Jane(”No-Drama”)Q

In this day and age - if you have a cell phone and a credit card there are very few true crises, most things are just inconvenient.
If you don't need 9-1-1 then it's not really an emergency.

[mercury]

JaneQSmythe,

That's all true, there are some people who have a lot of crises in life. But it doesn't really sound like that's the case with the OP's situation. It's more like "I just. don't. like. her."

It's more like they just don't like each other.

I see so much of that on this board. I think women just don't like each other when they're dating the same guy.

Honestly, very few people seem happy with their poly situations. I think most people on this board would love it if they were poly but their partner was only with them. It's kinda crazy! I mean, understandable. But it definitely says something...

The women all hate their husbands' girlfriends. She's dramatic. She's trouble. She's sneaky. She's bossy. She's controlling. She's always something. She's never just the woman your husband is dating who's allowed to be human and have needs and call him and take up his time. It always crosses someone's boundaries.

I'm not saying I wouldn't feel or be the same way if I were poly. Just saying....this is what poly is, and it's freaking sad.

[Emm]

I think most people on this board would love it if they were poly but their partner was only with them. If you look at those with a post count under 20, perhaps. That's where you'll find the ones who came here because they've encountered something new and threatening and who haven't had time to work themselves out yet.

If you think it's all "freaking sad" perhaps you should stop projecting.

[ViableAlternative]

If you think it's all "freaking sad" perhaps you should stop projecting.

I've gotta agree here....

Bear in mind, mercury, that posts you find on a forum commonly used for seeking help or advice are often.... seeking help or advice.

If, as someone with new or limited experience in fixing cars, you peruse a forum full of experienced automotive technicians, it's likely that you're seeking to find an answer regarding why your car is broken and advice in how to fix it. If, as someone new in practicing polyamory, you peruse forum full of experienced polyamory practicioners, it probably isn't because you have absolutely no problems to work out in your relationships.

The people NOT having trouble with their relationships, but still reading forums (or practicing polyamory and NOT reading forums) aren't going to be posting things stating "We're all getting along! Oh no, what should we do?!"

Y'know?

[ViableAlternative]

And, just a thought, but I don't really think it's "freaking sad" to see people posting asking for help resolving an issue - even (or especially) if it's THEIR OWN issue with acceptance of someone in a partner's life.

Also, just to be especially clear, I don't mean to be picking on you, mercury. Honestly. I just think you might not have considered the ways it might NOT be "sad" to see so many people seeking help with something. Maybe it's just plain good for them to BE seeking help, instead of floundering, right?

[CielDuMatin]

Honestly, very few people seem happy with their poly situations. I think most people on this board would love it if they were poly but their partner was only with them.Well, please count me
as another who is quite happy with their poly situation. I would actually love it if my partners had more than me, but one doesn't want to, and the other hasn't been able to find anyone that clicks with her yet.

I know several other friends who are also quite content with their poly situations.

I mean, could things be better? Usually, yes, but that's the same for everyone, mono and poly alike. That doesn't mean that I am not content.

I'm not saying I wouldn't feel or be the same way if I were poly. Just saying....this is what poly is, and it's freaking sad.This may be what you have experienced, but it's not the reality for a lot of folks.

People tend to come to forums when they have problems, looking for advice, help, or just a shoulder to try on. There are a large number of poly folk out there who never post on a forum - they are out there just getting on with it.

I think that drawing any conclusions based on forum posts is inaccurate at best.

[mercury]

I see what you are all saying, and I understand your point. But the thing is, I don't think poly people who don't post on message boards seeking advice and help are "happy," either.

I post on a general relationships and dating board full of mono people, too, and the people there say the same things, "We're messed up here, but people not on message boards are doing just fine."

That's not true. Even people who don't ever post on message boards have extreme relationship problems. They just happen not to be the personality types that go on message boards. I was in a relationship for five years that had all kinds of problems, and I never came to a message board for advice.

Hence, no, poly people not here are not doing "just fine." Poly and mono relationships have major problems. I mean, pretty much EVERY interaction I have with poly (not just here) has some crazy jealousy issue. My recent guy pen pal was a polyamorous guy who said everything was hunky dory but then he let it spill that one woman was upset because she saw vacation photos of him and his other woman. (That's an oft-heard thing: "She saw the Facebook photos and got jealous!"

Mono relationships have troubles and issues, too; I'm not saying they don't. When a mono girl talks about her mother-in-law: "I don't like her" "She's bossy" "She's controlling"...etc., it sounds just as bad as poly women going on and on about how her husband's partner is "controlling" "a drama queen."

Mono relationship problems like "I wish he would call me more" or "He hasn't been paying enough attention to me" or "He's not sure if he wants to commit" don't strike me as being AS petty because those types aren't two women being catty to each other. They're still kinda unpleasant to hear about and for the people to experience, but I'm not disgusted because it's not female cattiness.

In short, don't think of yourselves as troubled poly couples while the non-message-board poly couples are doing just fine. They're not better at being poly than you are. They have the same issues. Just as non-message-board mono couples have the same issues as message-board mono people. It's not an insult; it's just the truth.

[mercury]

And, just a thought, but I don't really think it's "freaking sad" to see people posting asking for help resolving an issue - even (or especially) if it's THEIR OWN issue with acceptance of someone in a partner's life.

Also, just to be especially clear, I don't mean to be picking on you, mercury. Honestly. I just think you might not have considered the ways it might NOT be "sad" to see so many people seeking help with something. Maybe it's just plain good for them to BE seeking help, instead of floundering, right?

I agree it's not wrong for people to post about their poly relationship struggles and difficulties. People do need to reach out for help when they need it. What I'm saying is that the content of the posts saddens\ me. I wish women could just like each other more. When you stop to think about how bad it is to fight over a man, even subtly, it's just...wrong. Women are supposed to be in solidarity. We are united by gender, and I don't like all the "I don't like her" and "She's trouble."

She's your sister in this patriarchal world.

So you see, it's not the "help seeking" that bothers me. It's the letting a man make you see some other woman as an enemy when she's not.

I would hate to be in a poly situation in which the other woman and I clearly didn't like each other and every time one of us was with the guy alone, we were saying things like "I don't like her (the other woman)" to the guy. At the very least, I'd want a situation where we're kinda neutral to each other. Best case scenario, friends or friendly.

But I implore you all, even if he is your husband of 15-25 years, stop hating on other women. I don't think she's as bad as you're making her out to be. She's just a woman who has relationship needs like any other woman.

Don't let yourselves fight over men...

Try looking at things differently occasionally. Instead of "my husband." Think...your fellow woman.

And thank you for saying that you're not picking on me. I know what I said was a little inflammatory. But....it's true. I actually was being a bit that way myself recently. But I gave myself a check recently and said...no. I'm not going to make some woman the enemy because of a man.

[CielDuMatin]

I never said that EVERYONE who doesn't post is just hunky-dory - just saying that those who DO post tend to be the ones with troubles, and to extrapolate that to a statement about the whole population is fallacious, since posters tend to not be a representative cross-section of the poly population.

You may well have had some person experiences that back up your hypothesis, I am just giving you that from my experience there are quite a lot of poly folk out there who are making it work very well for them. Trying to broaden your sample size a little :)

[ViableAlternative]

I see what you are all saying, and I understand your point. But the thing is, I don't think poly people who don't post on message boards seeking advice and help are "happy," either.

I am not posting on a polyamory message board seeking advice. Uhh, I never HAVE sought polyamory advice on message boards, actually (but am delighted to lurk and learn from others' experiences, and have an opportunity to grow from the advice they receive, even as they do!). Are you submitting that I am also not happy? Because your statements read as though you honestly believe that ALL polyamorous folk (women specifically?) are not happy. If that's the case, then I guess we're looking at a glass-half-empty/glass-half-full sort of thing, and just won't agree - which is okay too, I guess.

I post on a general relationships and dating board full of mono people, too, and the people there say the same things, "We're messed up here, but people not on message boards are doing just fine."

That's not true. Even people who don't ever post on message boards have extreme relationship problems. They just happen not to be the personality types that go on message boards. I was in a relationship for five years that had all kinds of problems, and I never came to a message board for advice.

See, this all really does read to me as "You/We are ALL screwed in our relationships, no matter what, period, the end", and, maybe my glass is just half full, but I can't (won't?) believe that as truth.

Hence, no, poly people not here are not doing "just fine." Poly and mono relationships have major problems. I mean, pretty much EVERY interaction I have with poly (not just here) has some crazy jealousy issue. My recent guy pen pal was a polyamorous guy who said everything was hunky dory but then he let it spill that one woman was upset because she saw vacation photos of him and his other woman. (That's an oft-heard thing: "She saw the Facebook photos and got jealous!"

I.... have sincerely ENJOYED seeing my boyfriend's vacation photos on his Facebook. While he and his wife were gone, the wife's boyfriend and I did some home repair work on their house. The wife got home a few days before her husband (yeah, still that selfsame boyfriend of mine), and we were EXCITED to share photos. I loved hearing about the awesome time they had. And then she invited me out to dinner with her and her boyfriend as a thank-you for working on their house. We had a lovely time.

I'll grant that I'm not dating her, nor interested in dating her, nor would I date her - she's not my "type" and I have no interest in her beyond a fond friendship. I'll even grant that she has attributes and such that REALLY rub me the wrong way at times. But.... pretty much everyone in the world REALLY rubs me the wrong way at times. As a person, she is not someone I would date. And.... so the hell what? We aren't dating. Big deal. Doesn't mean I'm jealous of the relationship she has with my boyfriend. Why should it? I LIKE her. We ENJOY each other. I think if you asked her, she'd say all the same things about me.

And I don't think we're the exception to the rule. I really sincerely believe that.

Mono relationships have troubles and issues, too; I'm not saying they don't. When a mono girl talks about her mother-in-law: "I don't like her" "She's bossy" "She's controlling"...etc., it sounds just as bad as poly women going on and on about how her husband's partner is "controlling" "a drama queen."

Mono relationship problems like "I wish he would call me more" or "He hasn't been paying enough attention to me" or "He's not sure if he wants to commit" don't strike me as being AS petty because those types aren't two women being catty to each other. They're still kinda unpleasant to hear about and for the people to experience, but I'm not disgusted because it's not female cattiness.

In short, don't think of yourselves as troubled poly couples while the non-message-board poly couples are doing just fine. They're not better at being poly than you are. They have the same issues. Just as non-message-board mono couples have the same issues as message-board mono people. It's not an insult; it's just the truth.

Setting aside the comment about "couples" (polyamory is NOT always about couples, hierarchies, and the like, but that's another discussion entirely), I have to admit.... I don't think of us as "troubled". I think there are plenty of polyamorous people, on message boards and off, that sincerely do not think of themselves as "troubled" in the manner you describe. The people posting about problems are having problems, sure. There are other people who have problems too, sure. But not everybody NOT posting about problems is actually HAVING problems.

And, again, I'm seriously not picking on you, mercury, I promise. I just.... You sound so very jaded, and I'd like for you to see that the glass isn't always half empty :) I honestly do not believe that happy relationships are the exception to the rule in polyamory. Or monogamy. Or anythingelseamy.

[mercury]

Have a lot of work to do and can't reply right now, but I probably will later...or tomorrow. But just want to say something about the jaded thing. Maybe it's from reading the troubles on here. People just don't seem happy. I wish they would like each other more, that's all. I wish a woman would actually like her husband's partner. (And that that partner would like her boyfriend's WIFE). You never hear that on here. I have not once read "she's really cool, he picked well." At BEST, it's been "Well, I have my issues with her, but so far there haven't been any major difficulties." It's like this begrudging acceptance. It's never nice. It's mildly troubled, AT BEST.

And no, I don't think we're all screwed up in relationships. Well, I think we are, but that it can be worked on. But I think mono and poly relationships are different, and that i see much more female cattiness in the poly ones (which only makes sense because there is much more prevalence of women pitted against each other). The mono ones have a different kind of trouble. Jealousy is an issue a lot less, but mono ones have other kinds of problems that poly ones don't have. But the NATURE of those different problems isn't as catty.

[mercury]

I never said that EVERYONE who doesn't post is just hunky-dory - just saying that those who DO post tend to be the ones with troubles, and to extrapolate that to a statement about the whole population is fallacious, since posters tend to not be a representative cross-section of the poly population.

You may well have had some person experiences that back up your hypothesis, I am just giving you that from my experience there are quite a lot of poly folk out there who are making it work very well for them. Trying to broaden your sample size a little :)

The thing is, your sample size isn't any bigger than mine. Or however much bigger your sample size is than mine, it's still not big enough for YOUR assessment of poly to be any more valid.

I mean, we can go back and forth all day with "Well, the couples I see are fine" (you) and "the couples I see have so many jealousy issues' (me). I'm not going to place more stock in your assessment than I am in my own just because you tell me to.

I do notice a lot of defensiveness here. A lot of people talk freely about how much of a hassle poly is and how it's a real challenge, but as soon as someone says "Yeah, it does seem like a lot of issues," people then quickly revert to "But it's fine! I'm really quite content and it really works out well..." It's almost like you think I"m insulting you when I say it seems a hassle and has a lot of issues. I'm not insulting you. I'm just saying poly is this way. It is a hassle, it's very jealousy-filled. It's not for nothing that it has the image that it does. I'm not saying the "ends" aren't worth the struggle for some people. But the ends are just that -- the ends. The means, the journey, the struggles...go on and on...and it's constant "I don't like her" stuff.

This is what I"ve observed about poly couples: 1) they're either just starting out and neither partner has even met anyone yet; they haven't even been put to the test yet at all, or 2) couples who have been at it for a long time, but there are lots of issues.

[mercury]

I

Setting aside the comment about "couples" (polyamory is NOT always about couples, hierarchies, and the like, but that's another discussion entirely), I have to admit.... I don't think of us as "troubled". I think there are plenty of polyamorous people, on message boards and off, that sincerely do not think of themselves as "troubled" in the manner you describe. The people posting about problems are having problems, sure. There are other people who have problems too, sure. But not everybody NOT posting about problems is actually HAVING problems.

And, again, I'm seriously not picking on you, mercury, I promise. I just.... You sound so very jaded, and I'd like for you to see that the glass isn't always half empty :) I honestly do not believe that happy relationships are the exception to the rule in polyamory. Or monogamy. Or anythingelseamy.

Oh, I think it's easier to be happy in monogamy. I definitely think there are plenty of happy mono couples. I said they have their problems, but I think it's an easier relationship structure. They don't always last forever, but I think most people are more at peace in monogamy for a longer period of time than one is in polyamory.

[lovefromgirl]

I wish a woman would actually like her husband's partner. (And that that partner would like her boyfriend's WIFE). You never hear that on here. I have not once read "she's really cool, he picked well." At BEST, it's been "Well, I have my issues with her, but so far there haven't been any major difficulties." It's like this begrudging acceptance. It's never nice. It's mildly troubled, AT BEST.

Actually, I rather like my metamour. That's not to say we're besties, but we have a ton in common (not counting six feet and change of man). She's whip-smart in so many ways. She's even taught me things I've wanted/needed to know. If she likes, I'm going to crochet her the prettiest scarf ever.

She is really cool. He did pick well. Do we have issues? Well, yes, but who doesn't, on some level? It's possible to be happy with mildly troubled (especially given my family of origin). It's possible to look at one's own difficulties and recognise that one is not exactly perfect oneself. I doubt I'm quite what she imagined, either. "It's too short and scrawny, and it has panic attacks while I'm trying to sleep," she might say of me, plucking me up by the scruff of my neck. "How in God's name do you cope, dear?"

I really do give thanks for her. She's the sort of person who responds to "do unto others", you know? Show her consideration and she'll show it back. We honestly care about the whole of the vee, not just what each of us gets out of CdM. He loves us both; how is it loving to him, exactly, to make each other miserable? Then he's got problems to sort out on top of everything else and frankly being mean is more trouble than it's worth. Without ruffling feathers needlessly, we work things through and get on with living.

[ViableAlternative]

IFE)You never hear that on here. I have not once read "she's really cool, he picked well."

Really? Not once?

Then I guess I have to assume that you either didn't read my post, or you decided that the comment I made about how she has attributes that rub me the wrong way, just like everyone else on this planet, was somehow more important than the many comments I made about how I LIKE HER and think of her as a fond friend, enjoy spending time with her, loved the vacation pictures SHE showed me as well as the one my boyfriend / her husband posted on his Facebook, etc.

To be clear, I made the comment about attributes that rub me the wrong way to express that we do have differences and we STILL really enjoy each other. For goodness' sake, we've even decided to spend time just the two of us (unless boyfriend wants to join, we haven't really asked him yet) excercising every week. Does that honestly sound catty? Do you honestly think that's "troubled"? Then I guess the three-plus years I've been dating her husband / my boyfriend just hasn't been long enough for us to start hating on each other, or something.

I guess there's the possibility that you're just trolling, in which case I feel pretty ashamed for taking the bait, and I'd better just stop now.

I do hope its just a jaded, glass-half-empty kind of thing, instead of a "polyamory's alwasy a failing option and can't be successful" trolling kind of thing.

[CielDuMatin]

The thing is, your sample size isn't any bigger than mine. Or however much bigger your sample size is than mine, it's still not big enough for YOUR assessment of poly to be any more valid.Well, now our combined sample size is double what it was before.

MY Assessment to poly is that is CAN work quite well, but that there are lots of issues that need to be worked through. I'm certainly not saying that it works for everybody, or that the things you have observed are in the least bit invalid. I was simply refuting your generalization that it wasn't working for ANYBODY.

I'm not going to place more stock in your assessment than I am in my own just because you tell me to. I was merely giving you more data points. If you choose to dismiss them because they don't fit your hypothesis, then that's your call.

I do notice a lot of defensiveness here. A lot of people talk freely about how much of a hassle poly is and how it's a real challenge, but as soon as someone says "Yeah, it does seem like a lot of issues," people then quickly revert to "But it's fine! I'm really quite content and it really works out well..." There is a world of difference between saying that it is a real challenge and takes a lot of work (which I agree with) and saying that it doesn't work for anyone and that everyone dislikes each other and is jealous (which I disagree with).


This is what I"ve observed about poly couples: 1) they're either just starting out and neither partner has even met anyone yet; they haven't even been put to the test yet at all, or 2) couples who have been at it for a long time, but there are lots of issues.So people, like me, posting that there is a third type, groups (not necessarily couples) that have been at it a long time, but are making it work, and others that say there is a 4) Single people who have multiples relationships and are quite content - you discount those for some reason?

If I am sounding defensive, it's simply that I dislike sweeping generalisations that are only backed up by a small, non-representative sample, and tend to challenge them.

[Marcus]

which meant that my husband was late picking up his girlfriend, and I feel like the fallout from this is going to last for weeks. Sigh. I hate this. It feels like there's always some sort of issue going on that needs to be discussed; I'd just like a bit of a breather from time to time!

I'll be honest with you Fiona, it seems evident enough that you are not going to be "given" any breather room and that you need to "take" some breather room. Your husband and partner are not responsible for your feelings, they are not responsible for how much time you have to yourself, they are not responsible for you feeling fulfilled and peaceful. These things are all entirely your responsibility.

The situation you describe above is troubling to me; it tells me a couple of things but I want to make sure I understand you correctly:

1. Is there only one car between the four of you? Why does your arriving later force his date to be pushed later? Or are there children involved (I can't recall)?
2. Either way you answer the question before, if your and your husbands time is so linked for whatever reason, would it not stand to reason that perhaps you should schedule your date nights with outside lovers on different nights? It sounds like you get to go out for a couple of hours, rush back home and then he gets to go out for a couple of hours. Is this the case?
3. His girlfriend doesn't live with you, nor does your partner, so what is the situation with your needing to be best buds with his girlfriend? Is she always around (other than when he needs to go pick her up)?
4. Is your living arrangement meshed in such a way that you can't get away for a while? Is there an extra bedroom you can sleep in? Can you go camp out with your partner for a few days a week? You sound trapped, is this true?

Sorry to bombard but there seem to be a lot of problems but no solutions in sight. If this seems true to you I assure you it is merely your perception. Take the bus, work on your scheduling, figure out a better living situation, stop worrying so much about what they want and start getting what you want.

This is my amateur advice: no charge :p

[newtoday]

I guess there's the possibility that you're just trolling, in which case I feel pretty ashamed for taking the bait, and I'd better just stop now.

I do hope its just a jaded, glass-half-empty kind of thing, instead of a "polyamory's alwasy a failing option and can't be successful" trolling kind of thing.

She's not trolling. Read her past threads. She's once bitten, twice shy. And I don't blame her.

To be honest, there is alot of the negative on here. But why wouldn't there be? This is a forum for people not only to share the great stories, but to seek assistance, guidance, support and people don't usually seek that unless something confusing or negative is happening in their lives. There are many that share Mercury's feelings, thoughts but would never dare speak it aloud for fear of this exact ostrication for dissing the Primaries. :D

[Arrowbound]

I agree it's not wrong for people to post about their poly relationship struggles and difficulties. People do need to reach out for help when they need it. What I'm saying is that the content of the posts saddens\ me. I wish women could just like each other more. When you stop to think about how bad it is to fight over a man, even subtly, it's just...wrong. Women are supposed to be in solidarity. We are united by gender, and I don't like all the "I don't like her" and "She's trouble."

She's your sister in this patriarchal world.


None of that has anything to do with the inner workings of a relationship though. Am I going to reach out and hug a complete stranger on the train because she's also a woman? No. Frankly it's not every woman I'd want solidarity with, just like it's not every woman I'd want to be friends with. We're not all compatible with one another like that. I accept it. So that's a moot point. Everybody as individuals is how I see things.



But I implore you all, even if he is your husband of 15-25 years, stop hating on other women. I don't think she's as bad as you're making her out to be. She's just a woman who has relationship needs like any other woman.

Don't let yourselves fight over men...

Try looking at things differently occasionally. Instead of "my husband." Think...your fellow woman.


My SO is an excellent judge of character. It's why a lot of the women he has spoken to have never become metamours to me, and I'm glad, because even the thought of being indirectly affected by someone who is generally immature, thoughtless and emotionally downtrodden makes me tired. So far I have genuinely liked one, and if she were to come back into the picture I would love it, despite whatever issues were present initially.

Are we really going to sit here and pretend like it's a good idea to foster a friendship full of miscommunication and deceit? I mean, give me a break. Any metamour that would go out of her way to down-talk me to my OSO is not a woman I would be more than civil to. It has nothing to do with "fighting over men" and everything to do with "In what world is this the action of a mature, considerate person?"

At what point do you trust and use your own common sense?

[nycindie]

You never hear that on here. I have not once read "she's really cool, he picked well."

I've seen plenty of threads where people gush about their metamours. I know I have gushed about one. I really liked her. Have you read the Poly Success and Happiness thread? It's a sticky at the top of one of these forums, and it's just the great things people have to say about their poly relationships.

There's also the "Metamour Love (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3626)" thread specifically for praising metamours. Maybe you just haven't searched enough to find the happy threads yet.

[MeeraReed]

For the record, I thought Mercury was making some really good points about cattiness between women, until she started insisting that it's easier to be happier in monogamous relationships.

But now, to redirect this thread back to advice for Fiona:

My first reaction to your situation, Fiona, was to agree that your husband's girlfriend sounds kinda awful. I started to think, yeah maybe this is what vetoes are for.

But then I thought about it more (aside from not believing in vetoes anyway). It seems like the issues you have are with your husband, but you are getting really distracted by the girlfriend and/or blaming the issues on the girlfriend.

For example, when the girlfriend forgot something at home, it should have been your husband's job to say, "Sorry, I don't have access to the car." It's not that the girlfriend was being dramatic or creating drama--your HUSBAND created drama by not respecting your time with your boyfriend.

Maybe she IS dramatic and immature. But it sounds more like she is just a bit inexperienced with poly. The comment about giving your husband a blowjob, the awkward things she said to your boyfriend--those don't sound like malicious comments, but like the attempts of an uncomfortable person to figure out what to say.

I wouldn't automatically think it's not okay to joke about giving a blowjob in front of one's metamour. I mean, some people would be fine with it. Is she supposed to pretend she doesn't have oral sex with your husband? Sure, it's awkward to mention it, but treat it as her awkwardness, not as her immaturity.

If she really is immature, you want to know what your husband sees in her. My knee-jerk reaction was, "Ew, I hate it when guys get caught up in sexual feelings for an immature woman and think they have real love." But part of my reaction comes from a lifetime of absorbing catty attitudes toward the "other woman."

Maybe she's a bit immature. But the fun thing about being poly is that you CAN date someone who is not the type of person you'd pick for a primary partner--someone who is totally different from the primary partner you already have.

One of my best dating experiences as a single person was becoming involved in a casual/sex-friendship thing was a guy who was TOTALLY unsuited to me. He was a total flake, he was irresponsible, he smoked, he had wildly different political views, he was too old for me, he was...frankly not all that bright :) Oh man, was he fun. I learned so much about myself and about sex. In many ways, he was a pretty good friend to me too.

Part of the time that I was involved with him, I also had a boyfriend/ex-boyfriend that I was non-monogamous with. I liked my boyfriend quite a lot. I would NEVER have expected that he would like the other guy. (Because of distance they never had to meet). I talked openly about the other guy to my boyfriend, and he was supportive, but if they had met I'm sure my boyfriend would have thought, Whoa, that guy is flaky and immature and what the heck does she see in him?

So what I'm saying is, maybe let your husband carry on his relationship the way he wants to do it. It might end eventually for reasons that have nothing to do with you. In the meanwhile, give him the freedom to date as he chooses. You don't need to like her.

However, that said, I see some big problems here. With your husband, not with his girlfriend. I am REALLY bothered that your husband said, "Well she doesn't like you either" to you. That is REALLY harsh and dismissive of him. And hurtful.

The issue is not that she doesn't like you, it's that your husband doesn't seem to like you much right now either. :(

No wonder you are feeling panicky and unhappy.

It sounds like you and your husband should work on your own relationship a bit (dates nights, etc). Maybe you should flat-out not discuss the girlfriend with him since maybe that's only part of the issue.

Actually, I think you should try harder to communicate with the girlfriend and get to know her better. As an introvert myself, I know that's hard. But it seems like she tried to reach out to you but you shot her down, and now she's struggling to figure it all out.

I agree with Mercury's points in some ways: we all really do have a knee-jerk reaction of jealousy against the interloping, manipulative, immature other woman. You're even trying to assemble evidence from her other partner's wife that she might be "trouble."

It sounds to me like she's trying as hard as she can, but she's a bit clueless.

Also, can you and your husband buy a second car or something???? That arrangement sounds ridiculous.

[MeeraReed]

Forgot to mention a few more things, Fiona.

You said that your problems with the girlfriend started in part because your husband began the relationship by breaking boundaries: getting drunk and having sex with her before everyone was tested for diseases. (That was you, right?) I sympathize with your frustration at having the relationship start off on the wrong foot like that.

But, I'm also wondering if your boundaries are reasonable. They used condoms, yes? In fact, you said all of you, including you & your husband, use condoms?

So why on earth is it a rule that new partners have to be tested before intercourse WITH A CONDOM? Sure, there are diseases you can get from oral, etc, but in the "regular" dating world, people don't have to be tested before hopping into bed with a new partner. That's what condoms are FOR, after all.

(Excuse me if I misunderstood what you said or if I'm mixing it up; if that's the case, never mind).

I'm sure many poly couples have similar limits, but as a single person, this just seems odd to me. I'm responsible and get tested for everything yearly (which costs me $200 even with my insurance), but I can't imagine having to be tested before safe sex with a new partner. I would be pretty insulted, in fact, if a wife expected me to get tested just because she didn't really trust me or my sexual health.

(I'm not saying that's what you think, but it might come across that way).

I mean, sure, when people have multiple partners it's important to be extra careful about diseases, but if you are really petrified about any risk of diseases at all...well...nothing but monogamy (or celibacy!) will be risk-free.

Similarly, I'm not sure why you were so upset about the situation with the condom breaking and you not being told right away. If I had been the girlfriend, it would never occur to me that that should be something to inform the wife about. I mean, the disease risk would be mine, not the husband's, right? The wife should not be too much at risk of getting something from her husband if his condom broke once with his girlfriend?

Were you mainly concerned about the risk of her getting pregnant? I can see why a pregnancy scare would be something that you should be informed about, but you said the girlfriend "says she can't get pregnant." Why don't you trust her/believe her?

I'm just trying to offer an alternate perspective. Maybe you are overreacting to these things because you just don't like the girlfriend very much.

But I totally sympathize with your struggle to communicate with your husband, which sounds really difficult right now.

[ViableAlternative]

But, I'm also wondering if your boundaries are reasonable. They used condoms, yes? In fact, you said all of you, including you & your husband, use condoms?

So why on earth is it a rule that new partners have to be tested before intercourse WITH A CONDOM? Sure, there are diseases you can get from oral, etc, but in the "regular" dating world, people don't have to be tested before hopping into bed with a new partner. That's what condoms are FOR, after all.


Condoms are not a 100% surefire protector against all that can ail ya. And some people in the single/dating-around world DO require testing of a new partner prior to sex.

Let's ignore the (comparatively lesser) risks of oral sex. Herpes, HPV, and other complaints can pass between sexual partners even with the use of a condom. If someone who is 100% free of STDs wants to remain that way (or someone WITH STDs doesn't want more, or want to pass what they've got, or whatever), well, that person has EVERY right to take the precautions that they feel are best for them. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to require that your partner have a look at a clean bill of health from a new partner prior to sex. The consequence to failing to do so could probably be no sex with the existing partner until testing can be done on all parties involved to ensure health. Condoms are entirely irrelevant. A condom can break, or leak, or be used improperly, fall off, get schlorped up into a particularly grabby vagina, spill, get slingshotted up someone's nose, or otherwise fail to work as intended/desired. A clean bill of health is worth FAR more than just a bit of peace of mind.

Regardless, the OP and her beau made an agreement. It must have been reasonable enough to agree to, or an agreement wouldn't have been reached. If the beau broke the agreement, well, that's a fail. If he no longer agreed with it, he'd be better off renegotiating, or, if unable to renegotiate to reach a mutually acceptable compromise, decided what is dealbreaking and act accordingly.

In any case, yeah, I just don't see the testing thing as an unreasonable or even unusual requirement. It's not one that I prersonally require, but I can appreciate others' requirement of it.

I'm sure many poly couples have similar limits, but as a single person, this just seems odd to me. I'm responsible and get tested for everything yearly (which costs me $200 even with my insurance), but I can't imagine having to be tested before safe sex with a new partner. I would be pretty insulted, in fact, if a wife expected me to get tested just because she didn't really trust me or my sexual health.

Just because she trusts you, and even your selection of partners, doesn't mean she automatically trusts those partners, or their other partners, or partners' partners, etc..... One apple can spoil the barrel, and all that jazz. Sure, testing just the spouse's partner doesn't ensure that no one along down the line has anything, but it at least gives a little more insight than just using a condom and hoping.

I mean, sure, when people have multiple partners it's important to be extra careful about diseases, but if you are really petrified about any risk of diseases at all...well...nothing but monogamy (or celibacy!) will be risk-free.

Celibacy IS the surest way to remain disease free. But that doesn't mean a person is unreasonable for taking all available precautions. It's her HEALTH. It's no one's place but hers to determine an acceptable level of risk for her.

Similarly, I'm not sure why you were so upset about the situation with the condom breaking and you not being told right away. If I had been the girlfriend, it would never occur to me that that should be something to inform the wife about. I mean, the disease risk would be mine, not the husband's, right? The wife should not be too much at risk of getting something from her husband if his condom broke once with his girlfriend?

Seriously?! So, a person of unknown health status has a condom break with a guy. Now the guy's health status is also unknown. It IS possible that something can pass with one single oopsie. How likely or unlikely it is doesn't matter; it IS possible. You really think it's totally okay to NOT tell another sexual partner with whom he also uses condoms (which might again break or otherwise fail)?! I have a clean bill of health. No interesting STDs, no yeasties, no nothing. My boyfriend and I had a condom fail. I absolutely REQUIRED that he inform his wife, out of plain old courtesy. It was irrelevant that I required it, because he fully intended to tell her ASAP anyway. She wasn't upset, but she was glad she was told.

Were you mainly concerned about the risk of her getting pregnant? I can see why a pregnancy scare would be something that you should be informed about, but you said the girlfriend "says she can't get pregnant." Why don't you trust her/believe her?

Why isn't the OP's health a viable enough concern on its own?

Maybe you are overreacting to these things because you just don't like the girlfriend very much.

While it may be true that the OP is overreacting (debatable, and I haven't an opinion on that), I do think that the breaking of a firm boundary by having sex before testing and then not disclosing a condom break are rather grievous issues. But, they're issues with the partner, not the new girlfriend.

[Emm]

In short, don't think of yourselves as troubled poly couples while the non-message-board poly couples are doing just fine. They're not better at being poly than you are. They have the same issues. Just as non-message-board mono couples have the same issues as message-board mono people. It's not an insult; it's just the truth.You're the one saying that everyone involved in poly is "freaking sad". We're just pointing out that finding people having difficulties in a place set up at least in part for people having difficulties to go for help shouldn't be surprising or seen as indicitive of the mindset of everyone else who has a similar relationship style. Also, please stop assuming that I'm troubled - you're projecting again.

But I implore you all, even if he is your husband of 15-25 years, stop hating on other women. I don't think she's as bad as you're making her out to be. She's just a woman who has relationship needs like any other woman.
And more projection.I wish they would like each other more, that's all. I wish a woman would actually like her husband's partner. (And that that partner would like her boyfriend's WIFE). You never hear that on here. I have not once read "she's really cool, he picked well." At BEST, it's been "Well, I have my issues with her, but so far there haven't been any major difficulties." It's like this begrudging acceptance. It's never nice. It's mildly troubled, AT BEST. Well, now you have. Hi. My name is Emily, and I quite like my boyfriend's wife. She's pretty cool and we get along wonderfully. The two of them suit each other perfectly. Obviously he has extraordinarily good taste in women :D. I also like my other boyfriend's new girlfriend. We don't have as much in common as I do with B2's wife, but she seems very nice.

i see much more female cattiness in the poly ones (which only makes sense because there is much more prevalence of women pitted against each other). You obviously hang out with very different women than I do.

It's almost like you think I"m insulting you when I say it seems a hassle and has a lot of issues. I'm not insulting you. I'm just saying poly is this way. You said:...this is what poly is, and it's freaking sad.You didn't say it was a hassle or full of issues, you said it was freaking sad. If you didn't expect poly people to find that insulting you really need to pay more attention to social interaction.

[opalescent]

"(My husband and his girlfriend) are both extroverts and don't seem to understand my need for privacy and a bit of distance. I've tried to communicate this to both of them, with mixed results.

On the one point of having your husband understand your introversion and need better, have him read 'Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking' by Susan Cain. It explains introversion and the differences of being introverted (as compared to extroversion) in a really accessible way while also going into interesting depth on various ramifications on being introverted in a society (the US) that really does value extroversion more.

Also, I have not read the rest of the thread yet so if this has been suggested, well it can't hurt to do it again! Great book.

[Fiona]

Wow. Much to process here. I'll come back to it when I have a bit more time to write and respond.

[MeeraReed]

Seriously?! So, a person of unknown health status has a condom break with a guy. Now the guy's health status is also unknown. It IS possible that something can pass with one single oopsie. How likely or unlikely it is doesn't matter; it IS possible. You really think it's totally okay to NOT tell another sexual partner with whom he also uses condoms (which might again break or otherwise fail)?! I have a clean bill of health. No interesting STDs, no yeasties, no nothing. My boyfriend and I had a condom fail. I absolutely REQUIRED that he inform his wife, out of plain old courtesy. It was irrelevant that I required it, because he fully intended to tell her ASAP anyway. She wasn't upset, but she was glad she was told.


Yes, it seriously would not occur to me that a condom breakage must immediately be reported to other partners who are also using condoms.

I would never withhold that information--but it just might not occur to me that the situation is an emergency. (Unless I wasn't using birth control, or unless one of us was known to have HIV, of course).

But that's exactly what I mean--one person's very reasonable boundaries may seem bizarre to another person. This is particularly the case for single people who are dating married people.

That doesn't mean the married couple's boundaries are wrong, it just means that it might be harder to explain to the single girlfriend what they are. And the burden of explaining and upholding those boundaries is on the husband in this case.

Yes, of course Fiona has a right to be upset that her husband broke their boundaries. But I was just offering a single person's perspective: the girlfriend isn't necessarily untrustworthy just because those boundaries were broken.

Some couples approach broken boundaries as a chance to reexamine and renegotiate those boundaries. I'm not sure that would be the right move in this case, but it's a possibility.

[lovefromgirl]

But that's exactly what I mean--one person's very reasonable boundaries may seem bizarre to another person. This is particularly the case for single people who are dating married people.

Hey, speak for yourself. I understood "boundaries" from the word go. Single, married, in-between, we all have them, so what is the goddamn problem with respecting them?

[CielDuMatin]

You said that your problems with the girlfriend started in part because your husband began the relationship by breaking boundaries: getting drunk and having sex with her before everyone was tested for diseases.

But, I'm also wondering if your boundaries are reasonable. They used condoms, yes? In fact, you said all of you, including you & your husband, use condoms?Whether or not the boundaries are reasonable, the fact is that they were agreed-upon and he broke them.

If he thinks they are unreasonable, then he needs to sit down and discuss it, not disrespect the agreement by just ignoring it when it suits him. Or he shouldn't have agreed to them in the first place.

If their agreement was that he buy a pineapple before he rode in a car with another, then that is the agreement. If he breaks it, then he broke something that was discussed and cheated on the relationship.

If you want to have a debate about what boundaries are reasonable or not, then that's fair enough, but in my mind it in no way excuses someone unilaterally breaking them, and I don't find it at all relevant to this discussion to have that debate here.

[MeeraReed]

If you want to have a debate about what boundaries are reasonable or not, then that's fair enough, but in my mind it in no way excuses someone unilaterally breaking them, and I don't find it at all relevant to this discussion to have that debate here.

Everything that I mentioned, I mentioned because I did indeed think it was relevant to the discussion.

I wasn't trying to excuse the husband for breaking the boundaries. I was suggesting other ways of looking at the situation so that Fiona could move past feeling that the girlfriend is untrustworthy.

I suspect that the girlfriend doesn't know how serious the boundary-breaking was. The rule of needing to get tested before using condoms--that jumped out at me as something that someone new to poly (as the girlfriend is) might not understand is a deeply serious rule.

That doesn't excuse the husband for breaking the rule, of course. Nor does it mean the rule is unreasonable and should be renegotiated. But it does offer an explanation for how the rule may have gotten broken without the girlfriend necessarily being irresponsible and immature.

[MeeraReed]

Hey, speak for yourself. I understood "boundaries" from the word go. Single, married, in-between, we all have them, so what is the goddamn problem with respecting them?

Well, there clearly was a problem in this case, because Fiona's boundaries got broken.

I'm not arguing that anyone should EVER not respect someone's boundaries. I'm trying to explain why sometimes boundaries get broken--because one person didn't even realize it WAS a boundary.

And I do see a lot of issues arising from the fact that single people (especially those new to poly) are often coming from a totally different place than married/long-term-committed poly people. (Coming from a different place in terms of how dating "works," I mean).