is it ok to judge people on their past? [Archive]

polypenguin

04-01-2012, 04:17 PM

so here's the scoop: the girlfreind has a problem with a couple i'm interested in. She feels they aren't trustworthy because of something which happened in the past. But also because she knows* she heard the male (mr D.) saying the female in the relationship (we'll call her z) should sleep with me so she (my gf) wil leave.

in other words, Mr. D told Z she should fuck me until my girlie leaves, this what she over heard.

now, earlier I put a * behind the word know in her over hearing. She "knows" what she heard. And I don't deny she did. But, I feel that there is at least a possibility that there was she perhaps did not hear the entire sentence, and it was perhaps taken out of context.

I have since talked/hung out with the couple, though I have not confronted them on it as i've asked her to do that. And they showed no signs of being that sexually aggressive by any means. Everything they've said to me has been very much respectful towards her.

I guess what i'm asking is what could I/we do?

Icewraithonyx

04-01-2012, 04:41 PM

I would think people's past actions have at least some bearing on my opinion of them.

Based on the few posts I've read on the situation (aka keyhole view filled in from my own experiences), it seems like you're leaning more towards their "side" of the story. Yes, there's at least a possibility that it was a misunderstanding. But maybe not.

Perhaps you, GF, Mr. D and Z should ALL get together and discuss this. That would be my suggestion.

polypenguin

04-01-2012, 06:32 PM

i agree. i have been asking my gf to talk to them (with or without me). she promised she would, but still hasn't done it. i am trying to be objective about this situation, but it's hard to believe either side completely.

After hanging out with them this weekend, i'm at a loss, because Z told me straight up i need to slow "opening up" our relationship, way down. And that i need to go at the gf's pace. I agree, and i know i need to slow down. i think that really negates the idea that she has about them.

i guess i'm frustrated for two reasons: i need to slow down, and i don't know how without it being at my expense. and i feel like she tries to come up with any excuse why i can't be with anyone.

nycindie

04-01-2012, 06:35 PM

Who do you want to align yourself with, support, and make sure they are happy? Your girlfriend who loves you and is struggling, or some couple you've just met who just want to bang you and her for the fun of it with no regard for her feelings?

polypenguin

04-01-2012, 07:32 PM

i don't think that is quite fair. we have been friends with the couple for more than a year. secondly, i need not align with anyone, we must align together, as well as agree and disagree together.

i do not deny my feelings about the couple, but that also means that i am very hesitant on doing anything sexual with them. I always ask my girlfriend first (given the answer has always been no, and i always comply with her wishes), and they have always asked me if i want to, and if my gf is OK with it.

For example: two nights ago, i had the opportunity to have a sum of six with them and a few other close friends. Mr. D asked me if i wanted to, and if my lovely gf was ok with it. i called her (as she was somewhere else) she said no, and i did nothing sexual with them.

Unfortunately, my honesty and openness doesn't seems to matter to her. I feel like the only thing which matters is that i even considered the sexual activity at all. i feel as though rewards are not being granted, nor is honesty being rewarded. only negative consequences, honest and open or not.

nycindie

04-01-2012, 07:44 PM

It sounds like your approach has been to say, "I am poly. I want to have poly relationships," and when an opportunity comes along to have sex with someone else, you then say to your girlfriend, Genebean (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/member.php?u=41024), "You know I am poly now. So is it okay if I go and fuck these people?" and when she says "no," you get upset about it and feel like she's not making any effort. But what effort have you made to make sure your relationship with her is healthy and happy? It sounds like you really want to swing or be open, not poly, because you're very focused on sex, which is not the sole focus of polyamory.

If you truly want to live polyamorously, there is a whole lot of work to do between first stating that you are poly and fucking other people. And that work starts on yourself and your primary relationship, NOT on figuring out how to get permission from her to stick your dick into new holes. There has to be a strong, mutually supportive, healthy, and loving foundation, and that just doesn't seem to be there with the way you are going about it. Genebean has shared here just how upsetting this is for her, how insecure she is, what she sees as your impatience, and how much she feels like you just want what you want and get pissy about not getting it.

So it would probably be better for you two to look at your present relationship and see where it is and isn't working BEFORE you add more people into your life, whether as only sexual partners or for loving relationships. Perhaps, it could even be time for your relationship with Genebean to end. But you need to work on all that FIRST. For some couples, it can take a few YEARS of soul-searching, honest sharing, and very hard self-work for each of you before the relationship can be opened up to others. If you can't or don't want to put that kind of investment into building a strong, healthy relationship with someone you claim to love and cherish, BEFORE taking on other relationships and sexual partners, then perhaps either poly is not for you or your relationship with Genebean is over.

km34

04-02-2012, 12:33 AM

My answer to your title question is: it depends on the circumstances. Judging this couple based on a statement she heard in the RECENT past is completely understandable. Even if the statement was not like them at all, it was still said. So at some point they were disrespectful to her, when they thought she wouldn't know. I wouldn't want to have anything at all to do with them if I were her. That includes being friends, metamours, or anything. Now, if she had heard secondhand stories of them saying or doing something like suggesting one of them fuck someone else to get rid of that someone else's significant other for the time being, I wouldn't say that it's okay to base a judgement on those actions.

Basically unverifiable past = not fair. Verifiable and personal = fair.

Now, I also agree with nycindie that your focus really seems to be on sex, and maybe you should reevaluate what you're really looking for and possibly adjust to a more swinger mindset vs poly.

AnnabelMore

04-02-2012, 01:48 AM

"For example: two nights ago, i had the opportunity to have a sum of six with them and a few other close friends. Mr. D asked me if i wanted to, and if my lovelygf was ok with it. i called her (asshewas somewhere else) she said no, and i did nothing sexual with them.

Unfortunately, my honesty and openness doesn't seems to matter to her. I feel like the only thing which matters is that i even considered the sexual activity at all. i feel as though rewards are not being granted, nor is honesty being rewarded. only negative consequences, honest and open or not."

What do you consider a reward in this circumstance, and what do you consider a negative consequence? If the answer is that the reward you're seeking is a "yes" from her, that's just not fair. She may owe you respect and trust for your honesty, but you have to in turn respect her honesty if she says "No, I'm not ready for that" and let her know that it's ok to say "no". If a "no" to you is a negative consequence, then you're misunderstanding what mutual honesty and openness means. Honesty is not a tool to get your way, it's the basis for an authentic relationship.

On the other hand, if you feel like your honesty is met by distrust and withdrawal from her, that's a real problem. If so, you can ask her why she reacts that way, and if there's anything you can do to set her more at ease. For instance, if she feels like her "no" is met with anger by you, whether that's how you actually feel or not, maybe you can figure out what actions or words of yours might be making her feel that way so that you can change them and build better feelings between you two.

As for your original question, well... what do we have to judge people on if not their pasts? Are we supposed to ignore any potential warning signs and just wait for things to blow up in our faces? I'm not saying you shouldn't be friends with someone who has a questionable past, but letting someone new into your intimate life can be a scary thing in the best of circumstances, and I think it's ok to be extra discriminating when sex and maybe even love are on the table. Who you get involved with has a huge effect on you.

And why should they get the benefit of the doubt if she's sure she overheard something so disrespectful? If they really are shady people then of course they're going to show a different face when they know that you and/or she are listening versus when they think it's just them. Confronting them about it wouldn't necessarily prove anything, after all they could just lie.

There are other couples out there. Even if there were no questionable past and no overheard comment and it was JUST that she got a super bad vibe from them it would still probably be best to walk away. When it comes to sex and love, you want to be involved with people you both really trust!

ViableAlternative

04-02-2012, 02:10 AM

Quite frankly, just based on what she's heard the male of the couple say, Genebean is not safe with that guy.

No man who expects sex or feels entitled to sex, especially with a very new friend/acquaintence who is known to be new and somewhat uncomfortable in a poly or swinging situation, should be considered safe to be around.

Do you sincerely want to date people that are unsafe toward your girlfriend?

Now, at first, though I would have been comfortable with giving the female of the couple the benefit of the doubt (even though I personally would consider her off the table just due to her relationship with the unsafe male), after now learning that the female has a past history of lying and cheating.... Think about this critically for a moment. The female has a history of lying. The male has encouraged her to "fuck the shit" out of you, specifically to make Genebean leave. You really want to be involved with folks like this?

polypenguin

04-02-2012, 10:07 PM

AnnabelMore

04-02-2012, 10:35 PM

Well, you've never told us what that "something which happened in the past" is. I don't see how we can say whether or not it's a good idea to look past it if we don't know what it is.

km34

04-02-2012, 11:03 PM

Well, you've never told us what that "something which happened in the past" is. I don't see how we can say whether or not it's a good idea to look past it if we don't know what it is.

Genebean has mentioned a few things that would be issues for me if this was a couple in my (or my partner's) life:

1. The man of the couple made a comment about getting the woman to fuck polypenguin so that Genebean would leave. This occurred AFTER she had told the guy that she was not ready for polypenguin to have a girlfriend and while she was in the very next room and could hear him talking.

2. The woman of the couple slept with another chick's husband - i.e. cheated or helped him cheat, depending on your perspective - and this other woman was supposedly her (best) friend.

3. (and this one is not mentioned anywhere, it is just my personal thing) In general, this couple doesn't seem very respectful of boundaries that they know exist. I don't know how long you two (polypenguin and Genebean) have known this couple, but in the span of the last month or so that you've been posting, I've read multiple instances of them propositioning one or both of you with sex. If you are consistently saying "no, we're not ready" or "no, Genebean doesn't approve" or whatever, WHY DO THEY KEEP BRINGING IT UP? You need to set some serious boundaries with these people if you want them in your life at all or they are going to keep pushing you to have sex with them which is going to keep upsetting Genebean (rightly so, if you ask me) which is going to keep causing tension in your primary relationship which is going to keep slowing down the progress towards a more fully opened relationship (which you're already complaining about being slow) which is going to make you more and more frustrated which is going to cause you to be even more frustrated, etc. etc. This is NOT a good path to go down.

Anyway, back on point...

I don't think giving second chances is wrong. I think it is possible to salvage a friendship here IF this couple works on their issues and you work on setting boundaries. I would NOT ask Genebean to even be in their presence. Ever. They have made statements that make her feel unsafe (once again, rightly so in my book) so there is no reason for her to ever have a relationship on any level with them. I think you need to forget having sex with them, because they have very warped views of it. He should not EVER believe he is entitled to sex or expect it from anyone - this is an issue I would consider necessary for him to work on in order to remain my friend. She should examine why she thinks it's okay to proposition her friends' SOs all the time and work on that major issue - this happening first with this instance in the past and now with you. Repeatedly. Who knows if this has happened more and you/we just don't know. No, I do NOT think "just sex" with them is okay.

I'm still confused about your focus on sex, by the way...

AnnabelMore

04-02-2012, 11:57 PM

It might be best to reframe this. No one can say for sure whether or not it's right for you to give them a second chance. Clearly, you think you should and if you were single that would be the end of the discussion because in the end it's a subjective question. We can't really know whether they've changed their ways, maybe they have.

But your actions affect more than you, so I think the REAL question is -- is it right for you to get involved with them even though your gf has valid concerns about them? I think that, if you really care about her, the answer is no, it's not right. It would be one thing if her concerns about them were baseless and she was just being paranoid, but that's just not the case. It's very, very reasonable to not want your bf to be involved with a cheater and with someone who's disrespected and frightened you.

So, instead of asking yourself if they deserve a second chance, ask yourself if your gf deserves someone who's willing to respect her legitimate feelings.

ViableAlternative

04-03-2012, 01:03 AM

Do people deserve second chances?

Depends, I say.

On what? Well, that's up to you....

But for me.... There are plenty of things that will remove someone permanently from my list of friends, and my list of close friends, sex partners, and lovers is progressively more strict.

If a lover of mine commits a rape, do they deserve a second chance with me? Would I have sex with them again? Consider them as a close friend? A "regular" friend?

If a lover of mine commits a murder? Threatens me or a family member? Assaults or exploits a child? Peruses child pornography?

Those would strike people from my life permanently. No second chances. I think most rational people would agree.

So, what about "lesser" offenses? What if I overhear someone talking when they think that I'm asleep, and say something disparaging or exploitative about me (like, "Oh, V.A. is such a tease, I can't believe V.A. is withholding sex when obviously V.A. wants it and owes it to me"). Would that person deserve a second chance with me? Hell no. If they say to their significant other "Oh you should totally fuck the shit out of V.A.'s lover so V.A. leaves"? No second chance from me, nope. If they cheat on their best friend with their best friend's husband? Umm, no.

See, if someone is a *threat* to me or someone I love, I don't want them in my life. Ever.

As far as "just sex" goes, it's never "just sex", it's a bond of trust. By having sex with someone, you're trusting them to be honest and safe with you. You're trusting them not to pass you a disease without informing you that they have it. You're trusting them to use suitable birth control so that you don't reproduce unexpectedly. Especially as a man, you're trusting any woman you sleep with to act in a manner according to your mutually agreed-upon decision of what to do in the case of an unexpected pregnancy - and if she chooses to keep and raise an unexpected child when you don't want to, that's her right and prerogative. So you REALLY have to trust things like birth control, or you're stuck with the MOST major involvement possible to have in life, that of raising and rearing another human being. So, it's never "just sex". It's an extraordinary exercise in trust.

That said, I have sex with friends. I have "just sex" with "just friends". But NEVER, not EVER, with someone I don't trust completely. If the person gives me any indication that they do not deserve my trust, or, worse, if they actively have a *history* of damaged or misused trust, then, no, I don't have sex with them. I never place my health and well-being and future with someone I actively know is not worthy of my trust.

My point in all of this?

Polypenguin, you have other options. There ARE other fish in the proverbial sea. ESPECIALLY if what you want is "just sex", there are tons of people out there who are actually worthy of trust. Why settle for someone who you already know doesn't deserve your trust? Why not hop into some poly (or open/swinging, if that's more what you're after) discussion groups in the nearest major metropolitan area? Why not actively look for more people that are LIKE you, and also worthy of your trust?

Once you find more people that you CAN and DO trust, you'll look back at the people in your past that were not worthy of trust with a different perspective. Taking off the rose colored glasses is not easy, and sucks for a while, but OH MY GOD, is it ever rewarding. Take it from me.... I've been there, done that. Now, I look back, and I wonder why I wasted time on so-and-so, when I deserved SO much better, and I thank my lucky stars that I opened my eyes and found people who really DESERVE my time and love.

Arrowbound

04-03-2012, 02:23 AM

well, I see all of your points. I know I probably shouldn't give them the time of day. I talked to them both this weekend, and Z told me I need to slow way down with my girlie, which is sort of surprising.

I understand it's a sketchy situation, but I believe in giving people second chances. (please answer honestly, as this is a real question) is giving them a second chance wrong? Is being just friends with them ok? Is just sex ok? Please, tell me what you think honest and true.

I know there are other poly couples out there somewhere, I guess I'm just having issues waiting. But we've come to a compromise that I think I can deal with. I really apreciate your comments, though they are difficult to hear. It seems everyone is pretty much unanimous in what they think.

I just want to understand: WHY them in particular? Do you HAVE to engage sexually with these people?

I'm glad you came to the forum with the issue because I don't get a good vibe about any of this from genebean, and her feeling safe should be of utmost importance to you, above and beyond the involvement you see with this couple.

For me they have presented a few red flags, bright and glaring, and I'm not sure if you're purposely overlooking them in pursuit of what you want, or if they just seem so insignificant that to you they're not really red flags.

:confused:

Jade

04-03-2012, 03:31 AM

It sounds to me like Mr. D. thinks he exerts a LOT of influence over you. The words and manipulative actions he's used don't speak well of his boundaries or of his perception of yours. They also reflect zero respect of your girlfriend. He sounds, to me, like he's playing some alpha male game and making you a beta male in his pack. That's fine in certain social situations, but when it comes to your life, your goals, your decisions about who's important to you, You need to be alpha male.

I'd be interested in hearing what compromise you've come up with.

polypenguin

04-03-2012, 03:17 PM

nycindie

04-03-2012, 04:14 PM

You don't need to ask others what is right and wrong all the time, because then you put other people in a position of authority to tell you what's right and what's wrong. You know the truth, so just open your eyes to see it. Yes, your judgments have been clouded, so much so that you have not seen just how deeply you have hurt your girlfriend. Start being your own authority figure and act with integrity and good intentions. Don't let yourself be tossed about by people who want to use you.

Instead of asking, "Is it so wrong that I want to give people a second chance? Is it wrong to want to see the good in people?" I would say you should ask yourself, "Do my actions bring me satisfaction and also support and nurture the ones I love and care about?"

Look at what kind of mess people leave behind when they act to only satisfy their urges without regard for the impact they have on others. Do you want to do things that leave the loved ones in your life, and specifically Genebean, feeling damaged, broken, upset, betrayed, and wondering why she ever loved such an asshole? Or do you want her and anyone else who you care deeply about to feel like they have a true friend and ally, someone who acts with integrity and caring, and to know they can count on you when they need your understanding and compassion?

The best thing you can do for this couple that you've been so focused on is to turn them down and not have anything to do with them, because hopefully (in some small way) that will teach them something about how they treat people. They need to get the message loud and clear that you're not a doormat who tolerates shitty treatment and that you stand by and value your girlfriend. Your love for her should override anything they are tempting you with.

StarTeddy

04-03-2012, 04:15 PM

these are all difficult things to hear, but I know they are true. I guess my desires are clouding my judgement. Thank you all.

I guess I always try to only see the "good" in people, and never the bad. Wether I have intentions with them or not. Many people say I let others take advantage of me, but I guess I believe in turning my cheek.

is it wrong to see only the good in people?

I wouldn't say it's wrong, but it's certainly naive. Ignoring the bad parts of people is dangerous and can land you in worlds of hurt. There's being optimistic about someone, and then there's willingly putting your personal safety in jeopardy because the other person "deserves a chance". It can only go so far before it's practically a type of masochism.

EDIT: Not to mention how much your carelessness would also affect the people close to you.

opalescent

04-03-2012, 05:58 PM

There is nothing wrong with assuming the best of people. I try to do that myself and I find that assuming the best saves me a lot of psychic energy.

However I have really good bs detectors. If there is a whiff, a hint of maliciousness, of drama for drama's sake, or just crazy-making tendencies, I get skeptical. I rarely give second chances at this point because something is not right. I may not know what exactly but I trust my instincts. They have rarely failed me in seeing and getting myself out of potentially bad situations with scary people.

This couple has done more than give you a hint of maliciousness or drama seeking. They've waved the red flag under your nose for some time. Use this experience to develop your own bs detector. It will serve you well.

Also I applaud your willingness to talk and listen here. That takes guts. Good on you. I was skeptical you would be able to do that. I like being wrong sometimes!

Arrowbound

04-03-2012, 10:28 PM

these are all difficult things to hear, but I know they are true. I guess my desires are clouding my judgement. Thank you all.

I guess I always try to only see the "good" in people, and never the bad. Wether I have intentions with them or not. Many people say I let others take advantage of me, but I guess I believe in turning my cheek.

is it wrong to see only the good in people?

When the bad in people purposely disrespects the person in your life and therefore has no intention of supporting goodwill in general amongst yourselves you need to wake the hell up. There's no other way for me to put that.

I have had close relatives try and interfere in my relationship and plot to turn other people in the family against me, to my face and behind my back. I spent most of my life seeing the good in them and trying my best to ignore the bad. That is no way to live. You and your girlfriend deserve better.

Jade

04-03-2012, 11:24 PM

To believe that there is good in all people is noble. To believe that just because someone has some good in them that they will not harm you or yours (emotionally or physically) is dangerous.

You have a situation in which you don't want to believe something negative of someone else... I feel that and I'm sorry, because I know it's really disappointing:(

I really give you a lot of credit for being able to look beyond your own point of view. It's actually a strength to be able to say, "Hey, check my blind spot," you know?

ViableAlternative

04-04-2012, 12:03 AM

Another shout of kudos to you for actually listening to (sometimes harsh) constructive criticism.... I know I, for one, don't often sugar-coat and can be blunt to the verge of unkindness.... It's often easier to assume that everyone's out to get you than it is to step back and look at your own situation objectively.

On those of us outside of your situation only have the words and descriptions that you and Genebean have given us, and can only advise based on that.

polypenguin

04-05-2012, 02:42 PM

I feel honored when I am wrong, as being wrong and (more importantly) finding that out means I have achieved a new level of understanding. I'm not afraid of being wrong, and I don't think anyone should be.

that being said, I don't have a lot of friends and I don't want to loose any of the ones I do have. I guess that's the reason I always only look for the good in people. I want to find something I like, not something I don't.

nycindie

04-05-2012, 03:18 PM

...I don't have a lot of friends and I don't want to loose any of the ones I do have. I guess that's the reason I always only look for the good in people. I want to find something I like, not something I don't.
Yeah, well, even some serial killers have good qualities.

I hope you can see that, from how that couple behaved, they are NOT your friends. Friends are much more respectful than they were. Those people are selfish and only after what they want, without regard for you and your girlfriend. If it's friends you want, look for them while participating in activities you enjoy, outside of sex. Listen to Genebean, work on your relationship with her, BEFORE getting into sexual situations with other people.

Have you thoroughly read all the posts in this thread? There is good advice and feedback for you here.

polypenguin

04-05-2012, 08:47 PM

i'm not a sereal killer. :'(

nycindie

04-06-2012, 01:25 AM

i'm not a sereal killer. :'(???:confused:

I didn't say you're a serial killer. I just meant that you can wind up in harm's way if you only look for the good in people and put blinders on to their bullshit, meanness, and the damage they cause. Case in point: that couple --> not your friends.

I am also curious why "always looking for the good in people" means it was perfectly fine to discount and dismiss your girlfriend's concerns, whine and mope when you couldn't have your way, and pressure her to be around unsafe people she had a very bad feeling about. What was your reasoning there?

polypenguin

04-06-2012, 06:05 PM

please be a little more tactful/clear with your statements nycindie, as it was quite interpretable. Hence the reason I felt you were calling/comparing me to a sereal killer.

secondly, as per your question about why I thought it was ok to dismiss her concerns: I never did discount what she said, or how she felt. I told her from the get go, the situation was more than likely exactly how she thought it was. But I felt to be truly objective we ought to hear what they had to say. And if it were exactly as my girlfriend said, the couple would (hopefully) learn a very valuable lesson about not taking advange of other people.

third, you said I whined and moped when i didn't get what I wanted. You are right, and I have said that I am sorry numerous times. I let my ambitions take me away, and for that, I sincerely apologise to her. That said, it is ok for me to be upset I didn't get what I want. But I know I need to handle it differently in the future. I am learning, AS WE ALL ARE.

lastly, I did not pressure my girlfriend into sleeping with either of them, nor did I pressure her into being around them. The only thing I tried to do was get her to talk to them after the problem occurred. And i've stated my reasons for that.

she did not tell me that was the only thing the huband had said. She had made it seem like that was the only thing she could make out of their conversation. I thought at the time there may be more to the conversation, I did not know that's the only thing he had said. This was the reason I was set on talking to them, to get to the bottom, and see if there was anything that was misinterpreted.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Anneintherain

04-06-2012, 07:12 PM

Polypenguin, I don't see at all how you could interpret that nycindie suggested you were a serial killer. It seemed very obvious she wasn't implying your friends were either, just that you might think these friends have good qualities but it doesn't mean they don't have qualities bad enough that it would tip most people towards staying away from them regardless of the fact they are enjoyable company.

Anyway, I don't think it was your girlfriends job at all to go talk to them about what she heard. I don't have to confront people that I get bad vibes from or hear say rude things. If you wanted to talk to them about it that is your business. I'm not quite clear if you've dropped the friendship but I know I'd be uncomfortable if I was in this situation and my husband was still wanting to be involved with people who had acted like that.

ViableAlternative

04-06-2012, 09:33 PM

The only thing I tried to do was get her to talk to them after the problem occurred.

I know you've probably already learned this valuable tidbit, and please know that I DO NOT mean this harshly, since you do seem to sincerely care:

Our society sucks in lots of ways. One of those ways is that women have to be very proactive about their own safety. That sucks pretty bad. Women are taught, or learn in hard ways, that it's better/safer to cross the street than to have an unknown guy walking behind you on the sidewalk. Women are taught to keep an eye on their drinks at parties. Women are taught to be careful not to lead men on.

Really, it should be the other way around; men should be taught that pressuring for sex is wrong. Men should be taught that certain kinds of clothing doesn't equal a desire for sex. Etc. But since our society DOES have this all fucked up, the reality is that women DO have to be cautious about the people around them and be proactive about their own safety. Mind you, I am NOT saying that a girl who ISN'T proactive about her safety is in ANY way responsible if she gets hurt by someone. The fault/guilt is ALWAYS and ONLY of the person who made the choice/decision to hurt her. That said, it's always better to not get hurt in the first place, so many women do try to be proactive, as our stupid, fucked up society suggests.

A man with any clear disregard for a woman's choice or feelings, in light of our society's ways, should be considered a hazard. Dangerous. Coersion or worse waiting to happen. So, maybe that guy only said those things when he was drunk. But, y'know what? That means, when he's drunk, he's got to be considered dangerous.

Women should never, EVER be pressured, even a little, to associate with someone that they feel might ever be a danger to them. It's a horrible double-standard. It's kind of like saying, Hey, you've had it ingrained in you, through media, through culture, that if you're not careful and put yourself in a dangerous situation, you'll get raped! But maybe you should give this guy a second chance. He PROBABLY won't hurt you, and he'd PROBABLY only get coercive anyway, so what's the big deal?

Polypenguin, it's not your fault that society does this. It's not Genebean's fault either. But it is what it is, and I guess we just make the most of it while trying to change it. I also know that a lot of guys (many? Most?) don't even recognize or realize that this is what it's like for women, and it can be tough even to believe for some men. What I'm saying is, I know that you probably already "get it", but it bears repeating: don't push a girl to see someone that they feel uncomfortable around. I just wanted to elaborate on _why_, in case it wasn't very clear.

Jericka

04-07-2012, 03:45 AM

The other pressure that women often get is to Nice and Fair and all that. It often interferes with our efforts to stay safe.

You wanted her to go talk to that guy? That guy is NOT SAFE. Do NOT fucking pressure her to go against her own safety in order to be a nice girl. I don't fucking care if you think it is safe. See the posting above about being our job to see to our safety when actually it should not be.

Don't ask her to do things that are not or that she feels are not safe.

Don't pressure her to be nice to people who aren't safe or to people that she feels aren't safe.

You do not get to be the logical rational one while making her the "irrational emotional hysterical" one. Do NOT fucking do this.

Am I being harsh and angry? I guess maybe I am. Hopefully I am being clear.

LotusesandRoses

04-07-2012, 04:00 AM

that being said, I don't have a lot of friends and I don't want to loose any of the ones I do have. I guess that's the reason I always only look for the good in people. I want to find something I like, not something I don't.

Real friends respect your other relationships.

And I agree with Jericka and VA; you shouldn't "make" your girlfriend talk to this guy when she doesn't want to. It's horrendous.

nycindie

04-07-2012, 10:10 AM

please be a little more tactful/clear with your statements nycindie, as it was quite interpretable. Hence the reason I felt you were calling/comparing me to a sereal killer.

It is quite obvious that you need to hone your communication skills if that is how you interpreted my words. You said you like to look for the good in people and I said "even some serial killers have good qualities," clearly meaning that looking only for the good in people while not paying attention to the warning signs could put you in danger. How the hell you thought I was calling you a serial killer goes way beyond any system of logic. No wonder Genebean has felt that you don't listen to her concerns. Developing your ability to focus and pay attention and really hear what people are saying, will help your relationship, and enable you to recognize problematic, dangerous people like this weird couple you seem to like so much. Good luck to you.

polypenguin

04-09-2012, 01:51 PM

please stop swearing at me, it does not solve anything, nor does it make me want to listen. So, continuing on, I have not ever asked her to face the guy/couple alone. I've told her this entire time I would be there if she wanted.

That said, I have dropped the issue with her. I may still talk to them, as I feel they need to be called out on it. If they don't know they did anything wrong they will continue to have the same problems with other people.

nycindie, I understand what you mean, but words are interpretable. My mind interprets things different than yours does, so please don't be mad at me for that. If you still cannot see how I inteepreted it that way, look up simantics.

thank you all for your information and suggestions, I sincerely apreciate them. And they have been taken to heart. But may I please ask if you have any comments to make, please don't swear or be rude with me. It doesn't help, and just makes me feel bad about myself. And that's not why i'm here.

This site (for me at least) is about talking to people who understand, and although sometimes they may not say what you want to hear (like most of this bolg for me). It help us grow. Please understand you can disagree without being disagreeable.

BrigidsDaughter

04-09-2012, 05:38 PM

polypenguin - if this was intended as a blog, than you posted in the wrong place.

That being said, I am glad that you are able to listen. I also like to look for the best in people and it cost me dearly; when we overlooked or didn't notice a friend's tendency to intentionally cause chaos all around him (he likens himself to Loki) and involved him in our relationship with Wendigo's wife. It took a year before the full extent of the damage to us all was known and ultimately cost Runic Wolf and I our beloved Pretty Lady and all respect and friendship towards said friend. We tried talking to him about his actions and he laughed it off, so do no expect that your conversation with them will magically make them stop their behaviors.