Is it worth the risk?

[WalkingTheBlue]

I am a new member to this site, and this is my first post. I have been doing a lot of soul searching and internet research lately, and I've come to the conclusion that I am polyamorous. It's good to learn that there are so many people out there that are able to live that kind of lifestyle as well. I'm sure that there are are plenty of guys with exact situation as well. So, here goes:

First and foremost, I am a family man. I have three children and I love them all dearly. I pride myself on my fatherhood. I am also married to a wonderful woman about whom I have never had doubts. It's always been easy to love her, I have always been faithful to her, and I couldn't imagine a life without her. She's a very understanding and open person and I cherish everything she adds to life everyday.

My wife is also bi-sexual, and after about four years into our relationship we had a threesome with our communal best friend. It all happened very naturally, and there were no inhibitions or awkwardness. We have had threesomes with her a few more times afterwards, and things are still pretty chill. We discussed doing so with other women, but we always felt like we were just more comfortable with our friend and didn't need to find other partners.

We are all very comfortable with each other, and it wasn't long before I realized that I had feelings for our friend as well. I would go so far as to say I love her. The three of us went out drinking the other night, and our friend made the comment, "Can the three of us just get married to each other?". I felt so elated, even though I'm pretty sure the comment was in jest. I decided that I desperately want to broach the subject as a serious matter.

Neither of us are what you call conventional people, and we have a great time together. I'm just worried that if wife or our friend isn't on the same wavelength as me, I could be jepordizing everything. My marriage and my friendship. I don't want to drive anyone away, but I feel like I have to say something. Any advice on how to bring this up? Thanks in advance.

[drtalon]

It sounds like you're able to talk to your wife about anything. Why not ask your wife what she thought about your friend's marriage comment?

[WalkingTheBlue]

I almost did. I'm just afraid of how she might react. I don't want her to think that she's not enough for me, or that I love her any less because I have feelings for another. She's an understanding soul, but everyone has limits. I'm hoping this isn't hers.

[AnnabelMore]

There is really nothing to do but bring it up to your wife (and be sure to do that before saying anything to your friend!). It would be pretty unrealistic of her to think that close friendship and ongoing sex couldn't possibly lead to feelings, so hopefully she will understand, and you can always choose to be clear that it's just a feeling at this point and that you won't make a single move without her go ahead. Then you two can decide together whether to say anything to your friend.

If you can't think of how to begin to talk to her about it, try doing some reading at www.morethantwo.com, which is a site that I and many others have found helpful. You can steal any of the language that resonates, or just direct her to any parts you like.

If your wife *is* understanding (here's hoping!), please try to avoid the common and potentially fatal mistake of thinking that since both of you have been involved with your friend sexually, both of you should be involved with her romantically too. If your wife has been harboring the same feelings that's one thing, but if not then trying to make this a romantic triad (all three moving forward together) versus a vee (one person having a relationship with two people... as in my sig line if I was your friend, you were Gia, and your wife were Eric) will likely create problems and drama. Actually, let me recommend this article in particular: http://www.morethantwo.com/coupledating.html

Good luck!

[KyleKat]

Would it be beneficial to just show her this thread? It seems like you have expressed yourself fairly well and putting it in writing makes it easier.

[WalkingTheBlue]

I might try that. Also, thank you for the links Annabelmore. They're pretty useful.

[Phy]

I would second the others, just go for it and talk to your wife about her take on the situation and how she feels towards your friend. I have been in a similar situation to yours, getting over the initial fear took me too long, but it is so damn intimidating to start thinking outside the norm in this case, I can fully relate to that. And to answer your question: It can be worth it. :) Wishing you luck and courage.

[WalkingTheBlue]

Thank you everyone for the advice and encouragement. I'm going to talk to her about it tonight. I'm still not sure exactly how I'm going to tell her, but I'm going to give it a shot. I'll let you know how it goes.

[drtalon]

I'm still not sure exactly how I'm going to tell her...

Which is why I suggested asking your wife how she felt about your friend's statement as a good way to start. Asking is easier *and* it establishes that it's a discussion involving both of you, not a statement of one's position.

/shrug

[WalkingTheBlue]

I didn't pick up on the subtle difference earlier. That makes a lot of sense.

[WalkingTheBlue]

So I talked to her last night. All of my worst fears were confirmed. She told me that she thinks I've decided to hear what I want to hear to justify what she called emotional cheating. She thinks I'm rather full of crap, and that I'm completely wrong to have feelings for another woman while I'm with her. She says that she can't be married to me while I have these feelings. She didn't wear her wedding ring today. She couldn't look at me this morning, and recoiled when I tried to hug her. I made it clear that it wasn't about loving her any less, but she told me that she loves me less now.

I feel broken now. I feel like I put all of this time into figuring out this piece of myself that I couldn't define and I reached a greater understanding of myself. Now that thing that I've realized is a part of me is causing nothing but pain and havoc. I don't think I can turn it off. I wish I could. I wish I could go back. My life is in smoldering ruins right now, and I don't know what tomorrow holds for any of us. She said she needs space. I'll give it to her if that's what she needs. I just feel so powerless about it.

[nycindie]

It won't stay like this forever. It may not be ruined, just changed.

I wonder why she feels you can share your body but not your heart. What is the difference for her? I mean, really there isn't any part of our physical beings that doesn't contain our souls and emotions. For some people, the work required to keep them distinctly separate from each other in the mind isn't as easy as it is for others. That would be my next tack in your next discussions when they happen.

You can also invite her here to join, read this thread, and share her perspective on it. Once she gets over her shock.

[AnnabelMore]

So sorry to hear that. :( It always blows my mind that people think it's even possible to have regular sex with someone without having to worry that emotions might develop. There are actually chemical reasons that the two are linked (oxytocin released after sex, etc), you literally can't help how your feel. It's your actions that you can control, and your actions have been 100% honorable in that you talked to your partner about it rather than acting rashly.

Having her come here might help, as NYC suggests? Or maybe she does just need time and space.

[WalkingTheBlue]

I would love for her to read some of the blogs I've been reading and see the point of view that is shared on this forum. I think it would really help her understand wher I'm coming from. She's just too shocked right now (I think). After all, I've had a while to process all of this and I'm sure she feels caught off guard. I hope in time that she is able to accept me the way that I am. I didn't ask for any of this. It's just the way I ended up feeling. I can't help that, and I can't just turn it off.

I've always viewed my wife's friendship with our friend as having the dynamic of a romantic relationship. Most of the people we work with think that the two of them are having some sort of secret lesbian affair. I know that people are going to feed into rumors no matter what, but that tells me I'm not the only one who sees it. I not sure if I'm just hoping against hope, but I think she might be feeling some of these things that I'm feeling and isn't ready to come to terms with it yet.

I've never been a one night stand kind of guy. I've only slept with three women in my life: the mother of my daughter, and the two women in question. I've never felt ashamed of the number, I've just always equated sex with intimacy. I didn't just accept every offer that got put on the table. This wasn't some macho thing about having two women all the time. I've often thought about the three of us just cuddling on the couch watching tv, and the idea brought me comfort.

Despite all of this I can't help but feel that I've already lost my wife. I told her that I won't give up on us and I meant it. Even if it is just the two of us, I'd never view our marriage as being lesser because of it. Even though I feel so lost and distraught, I will give her the time she needs to preocess all of this. I know it's a lot.

Thank you everyone. Its so great that I have a supportive community like this to express myself. I will update you as things progress.

[bookbug]

It won't stay like this forever. It may not be ruined, just changed.

I wonder why she feels you can share your body but not your heart. What is the difference for her? I mean, really there isn't any part of our physical beings that doesn't contain our souls and emotions. .

It's an excellent question! When a woman expects her partner to love only her, why in the hell would she participate, and in some cases go so far as to advocate, bringing another woman into their sex life? Does she really believe her partner is not going to develop feelings for the woman after repeatedly sharing the most intimate physical relationship two people can share? WHAT THE FUCK???

She ultimately causes herself and her mate a lot of heartache.

And yes, it's a particular burr under my saddle because I have found myself the secondary in this exact scenario. Sex was fine as long as her husband and I only liked each other. When it developed into love, the shit hit the fan. Silly me, I thought love was the point. (Still fairly recent. I find my emotions evolving from broken-hearted and sad to pissed off.)

Anyway, to the OP, I'm very sorry. I think your wife was totally out of touch if she believed it was possible for you to keep sharing sex with your friend and never develop deep feelings for her. I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot and the mutual friend were a man, she would find herself in the same boat as you are now ~ with feelings for him.

[WalkingTheBlue]

I can honestly say that if the shoe were on the other foot, had I not prepared myself like I have, I might have reacted the same way. I also know that I love her enough to eventually try to understand her better. To try and see things through her eyes. I truly think she might try to do just that. It's not a definite, but I know her well enough to know its possible. I am trying to have hope right now, but I am preparing myself for the worst.

[bookbug]

I can honestly say that if the shoe were on the other foot, had I not prepared myself like I have, I might have reacted the same way. I also know that I love her enough to eventually try to understand her better. To try and see things through her eyes. I truly think she might try to do just that. It's not a definite, but I know her well enough to know its possible. I am trying to have hope right now, but I am preparing myself for the worst.

I truly hope that she will try to understand.

[LemonCakeIsALie33]

Please let us know how it turns out. I hope so much that she comes around. I can't believe that she'd say she loves you less now!

[NovemberRain]

I've always viewed my wife's friendship with our friend as having the dynamic of a romantic relationship. Most of the people we work with think that the two of them are having some sort of secret lesbian affair. I know that people are going to feed into rumors no matter what, but that tells me I'm not the only one who sees it. I not sure if I'm just hoping against hope, but I think she might be feeling some of these things that I'm feeling and isn't ready to come to terms with it yet.

This. And the strength of her reaction say to me that perhaps she's had these thoughts and/or feelings and rejected them. Perhaps it's too close to home and that's why she's mad.

I had a girlfriend when I was in my early twenties (all of them). She was the love of my life (I mean that like all you read in romances and fairy-tales. She was it.). She was often mistaken from behind for a boy. She had very narrow hips, and for a time, very short hair. She often wore jeans and high-tops and a leather jacket. She would go ballistic when people mistook her for a guy. Many, many years later, I learned from a mutual acquaintance that was a man now. I cried that night, because it felt like my gf had died. I had the tremendous luck and pleasure to run into him the grocery store parking lot one day. He was every bit as hot as I remembered, but so odd to see him gray-haired.

Anyway, I spent a fair amount of time thinking on his transition. And one of the thoughts was about the anger at being mistaken for a guy. It actually made sense to me after awhile. I realized that he must've been terribly traumatized by actually being a man, when his body and society said he was a girl. To think that someone could see inside would have been tortuous, I think.

So, I just wanted to offer a slightly different perspective. It is possible that when she's able to process some of the initial shock and anger and whatever, that things could change.

hang in there.

[LemonCakeIsALie33]

This. And the strength of her reaction say to me that perhaps she's had these thoughts and/or feelings and rejected them. Perhaps it's too close to home and that's why she's mad.

I had a girlfriend when I was in my early twenties (all of them). She was the love of my life (I mean that like all you read in romances and fairy-tales. She was it.). She was often mistaken from behind for a boy. She had very narrow hips, and for a time, very short hair. She often wore jeans and high-tops and a leather jacket. She would go ballistic when people mistook her for a guy. Many, many years later, I learned from a mutual acquaintance that was a man now. I cried that night, because it felt like my gf had died. I had the tremendous luck and pleasure to run into him the grocery store parking lot one day. He was every bit as hot as I remembered, but so odd to see him gray-haired.

Anyway, I spent a fair amount of time thinking on his transition. And one of the thoughts was about the anger at being mistaken for a guy. It actually made sense to me after awhile. I realized that he must've been terribly traumatized by actually being a man, when his body and society said he was a girl. To think that someone could see inside would have been tortuous, I think.

So, I just wanted to offer a slightly different perspective. It is possible that when she's able to process some of the initial shock and anger and whatever, that things could change.

hang in there.

This is incredible! Thank you for sharing this story! It's very true.

When I was younger I'd say things like, "I *wish* I were attracted to women. they're SO PRETTY. But I'm just not." And I really believed it.

But I was terrified that someone would think I liked girls - even though I didn't *know* I liked girls. :)

[LusciousLemon]

This. And the strength of her reaction say to me that perhaps she's had these thoughts and/or feelings and rejected them. Perhaps it's too close to home and that's why she's mad.

Often the things that bring out the most emotion in us in regards to those we love is the things that we dislike about ourselves. If she has been feeling true guilt, self-hatred, anything like that for "daring to love someone else, especially a woman" and having an "emotional affair" (I hate that phrase) then you bringing up to her the idea that you've been feeling these things to and it shouldn't be a bad thing may anger her more. It may make her feel like "I've done the "right thing" here in fighting this, why can't he do the same?" I disagree, I don't think either of you should have to fight it, but I can see that being her thought process.

When you brought it up, did you happen to focus on how happy you'd be if she felt the same way about said friend? She may be afraid that you love said friend but wouldn't be super happy about her doing so as well. I think it may (potentially) be easier if she realized that what you're thinking is more a triangle (triad) not a V with you in the middle emotionally. Acknowledging that HER feelings about your friend are at least as important and exciting as your own may go a long way if you can do so without it seeming like you're pushing the issue. Also, you may have to take into account her upbringing, her religious beliefs, and her general thoughts about homosexuality, because those could flavor her own guilt and reactions about her feelings for your friend.

[WalkingTheBlue]

The more I look back, the more that I realize my wife and her friend love each other in a romantic sense. I think my wife has suppressed these feelings instead of dealing with them because of the complicated nature of them. When I forced to confront those feelings she reacted pretty much in the same way as the girl/guy from NovemberRain's story.

We've all felt comfortable saying that we love each other, even if it was said in more of a friendship sort of way. I think if my wife is willing openly discuss the issue, and take an honest look inside her own heart that this is something we could have together. I haven't spoken to our friend yet, I don't plan to for now. I'm not sure if my wife has told her about all of this yet (we all work at the same place five days a week).

My wife is talking to me again today. It felt like a lot of the tension has lifted, although there is still a noticeable emotional distance there. I asked her of we could talk tonight, and she said that we could. I think my next move would be to ask her why she feels so against it. All she has said to me is that she has to be the only one, there can be no one else. I want to ask her what she is afraid of. What she thinks will change between us. What needs she has that she feels won't be met. She might find that she doesn't have any real answers to those questions.

[nycindie]

We've all felt comfortable saying that we love each other, even if it was said in more of a friendship sort of way. I think if my wife is willing openly discuss the issue, and take an honest look inside her own heart that this is something we could have together. I haven't spoken to our friend yet, I don't plan to for now. I'm not sure if my wife has told her about all of this yet (we all work at the same place five days a week).

My wife is talking to me again today. It felt like a lot of the tension has lifted, although there is still a noticeable emotional distance there. I asked her of we could talk tonight, and she said that we could.

Why is the girlfriend being left out of the loop?

[AnnabelMore]

Why is the girlfriend being left out of the loop?

Interesting question.

I would say they should definitely talk to her before coming up with a vision of how to move forward, but for just figuring out between the two of them if there's even a possibility that they can open their marriage to emotional engagement with someone else (well, to acknowledged emotional engagement, since it seems like it certainly existed before just unacknowledged) without destroying it, it probably makes sense to talk just the two of them first. That said, if they're going to see her soon they should probably acknowledge that they're working through some things so she's not like "Why are things so tense, did I do something wrong??"

[WalkingTheBlue]

I want to talk to her. I really miss her and it kills me not to be able to bring her in on the discussion. I would love let her now and get her input on everything. Unless my wife softens on her position I don't think that I should go to her and tell her how I feel. If we get to that point, we should probably all discuss it together for the first time. As long as wife is still upset about this, talking to our friend without her consent will send her over the edge.

[AnnabelMore]

It really makes me wonder how differently this might have gone down if, instead of you broaching the topic, your friend had taken your wife aside and said "I think I'm falling for you." Something to discuss, I suppose.

Of course the problem with the fact that your wife may have feelings for your friend is that if your friend has deep feelings for you but only sees your wife as a friend, your wife might feel doubly betrayed and jealous... but again, no way forward except through discussion...

[OkNewbs]

All she has said to me is that she has to be the only one, there can be no one else. I want to ask her what she is afraid of. What she thinks will change between us. What needs she has that she feels won't be met. She might find that she doesn't have any real answers to those questions.

Just a thought: My husband is fine with me with a woman, but not a man. At least for now. His fear is that a man is "true" competition. A woman has obvious attributes that my husband just cannot bring to the table. So it's different. She may be insecure & feel that (as I did at first) the friend will be "better" somehow than she is & she'll lose you.

[WalkingTheBlue]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, me and my wife have actually been talking a lot lately. As it turns out she talked to our friend about what happened. The friend was as pissed off and upset about it as my wife was. I had apparently misjudged their friendship a great deal.

I talked to our friend today, and she basically told me that she is glad to have me as a friend, but my feelings for her could never be returned. She wasn't mad about it though, she was quite compassionate and understanding towards me. She said that she knows that I cant help the way i feel. I told her that I hope the three of us can go back to being friends again, and she said she would like that. I loved her as a friend first, and now that I have some measure of closure on it I know that those feelings can go back to the way they were.

My wife and I have been really open with each other and have achieved a level of honesty we've never had before. We've always been honest with each other, but she was able to finally tell me something she had kept inside for years. It wasn't anything related to the original matter, but it gave her the courage to say it. If nothing else, some good has come out of this for us.

I have decided that even though I am inclined for the poly lifestyle, I can be perfectly happy with my wife in our monogomous marriage. She has decided that she can't live that kind of way, and I don't want to be without her.

She has also been more open to learning about polyamory. She's still not comfortable with the idea of trying it out, but she's growing more comfortable with understanding the way I feel. She even asked if she could read this thread (which I let her, of course). All in all, I'm feeling pretty good about us right now.

[AnnabelMore]

Wow! It just goes to show that you can go way far in your own imaginings when you're seeing what you want to see and don't know the real score.

Thanks for the update. I'm glad to hear that it sounds like things are going to be ok all around, and that you and your wife are walking the path of honesty together. You overcame your fear of disclosure, and she overcame her fear of hearing you.

[WalkingTheBlue]

Ok, so it's been a while. Things have been pretty quiet until the past couple of days. Over the weekend my wife told me that our friend (for simplicity's sake I'm just going to refer to her as K) felt uncomfortable around me and actually asked her if she would mind if didn't attend a party that K will be throwing in the near future. Of course I was heartbroken that one of my best friends didn't want me around anymore and I decided to write her a letter.

My letter basically stated that I understood why she felt awkward and I didn't begrudge her for it. That I didn't want to come between the friendship of my wife and K, but I also felt like I was losing a true and dear friend. I left the letter in her locker at work yesterday morning. About an hour afterward she knocked on my window and told me to call her, she seemed upset. I was kind of confused because I wrote that letter to put some closure on the subject. I called her and she told me that it wasn't that she didn't want me around, but that she was keeping her distance from me for my wife's sake. She said that I was very important to her and that she cared about me very much, and that there were things she wanted to say but wasn't sure that she should. She said that we should talk, I told her I would call her when we were out of work last night.

So, I called her and we talked for a while. It turns out that she has felt the exact same way about a poly amorous relationship between the three of us for some time, before I even brought it up. That she loves us both and she's never felt more comfortable around two people in all her life. She never thought she would end up feeling this way about two people at the same time, especially one of them being a woman. We told each other that we missed eachother and we both wish things could be simpler. That we could all just be.

She told me that she wasn't going to tell my wife about the letter, she thinks it will just make things harder for her. She told my wife what she said because she was reacting to her reaction, saying what she felt she should say to ease my wife's pain. It's not something we're ready to tell her yet. My wife just isnt ready to hear it. She's going to keep being my wife's best friend, and we're going to keep our distance from eachother for a while. We're going to try to play it cool. Easier said than done.

So now I know how K really feels, but I can't say anything. It's not my place to say how she feels. I hope that someday we can all be in a place where she feels like she can let the truth be known. Maybe if my wife knows how she really feels, and that it's not just about me or anything she might be open to the idea. I have hope now, but it keeps gnawing at me because I have to keep it inside.

[adrift]

Ouch! I really feel for you and both the women in your life right now. I know it's hard to be in a situation like that. I hope it works out for all of you. I also hope that if your wife does come around to the idea one day that she's able to see past her fears and see how much love she has from you both.

[AnnabelMore]

Ah ha... so your instincts weren't so far off after all.

It's such a shame that your friend lied and made you out to be the bad guy. I get why she did it, but... not really cool at all. :( :( The worrying thing now is that if/when you guys do come clean to your wife, she may feel 50 times more betrayed that you jointly kept this secret from her.

I know it's not up to you at this point -- you already did the hard work of being honest -- but I would strongly advocate for your friend to tell the truth about her lie, and why she did it, sooner rather than later. It will eventually come out somehow, and the longer it takes the more explode-y it may well be.

[WalkingTheBlue]

Ah ha... so your instincts weren't so far off after all.
I almost blurted that out when she told me.:D
I know why she didn't tell her. I think part of it was a fear of rejection, but mostly she was trying to be the friend that my wife needed her to be. We agreed that the last thing either of us want to do is to hurt my wife. Our last conversation was obviously in secret, but we decided that it was a fine line that we didn't want to walk. We don't want to go behind my wife's back with all of this. That would be heading squarely into cheater territory, somewhere I've never been and don't want to go. So, for now we're just carrying on.

The part that gets to me is that I feel like I have a secret again that I can't be honest about with my wife. We had just gotten to this great place of open communication. I also don't want to betray K's trust, or badger her to come clean about it. Not really sure what to do at the moment. Stuck between a rock and hard place.

[nycindie]

Not really sure what to do at the moment. Stuck between a rock and hard place.

Don't think you have to take action right away. Let all the changes and news settle in a bit. This is not a time for impulsiveness, I believe. So, I think if I were you, I would find some moments to be relaxed and contemplative and just breathe. Feel what you're feeling and don't make any decisions to move things along just yet. Revel in the joy you must have that your feelings for K are returned, but try to stay level-headed and unattached to any outcome. Keep your word to have some distance for a while until a solution comes to you about how to talk to your wife about it. There is no need to rush anyone or anything here.

I think that when it feels right, once all this settles a bit in you, you can have a talk with your wife about relationships in general and parameters that you see working for other people. Find out what certain words mean to her, like commitment and marriage and love. She told you she thought your feelings for K amounted to "emotional cheating" and apparently she still considers you both as a monogamous couple even though you have participated in non-monogamous activities together. So, I would start by talking about definitions and concepts and intellectually explore different ways to achieve a sense of satisfaction in relationships and love before asking to make any outer changes to your dynamic. Do some readings on love and how it can be expressed. Read Opening Up by Tristan Taormino together (did I already recommend that?). Take it slowly and patiently and lovingly and I am sure all will be good.