cowboy confessional

[elemental]

I’m a Cowboy. I push boundaries to breaking points. I have cheated in all my previous long term relationships under the guise of “polyamory”. I have selfish tendencies around relationships and sex. I am very sexual, have a strong sexuality, love to experiment, and a sexual late bloomer. When push comes to shove I have a history of giving myself what I want, when I want it. I have enabled my behaviour by refusing to address character deficiencies with self serving explanations. I have been sneaky, and dishonest to partners in the past. I have a long rebellious history with any kind of authority and am prone to addictive behaviours, having struggled with addiction issues and anger management most of my adolescent/adult life. I am charismatic, attractive, masculine, strong and creative, a man's man. I come from middle class white upbringing, with an anarchistic street punk art student youth. I have been criminally minded, and a long history of living in the margins,
In the shadows, between the cracks. I am self employed, a self made man.

I am 42, in a relationship with the woman of my dreams who is 10 years younger for the last five years, married for 2. We came together as a casual encounter, both being in sexually unsatisfying relationships, her with permission, me in a “don’t ask, don’t tell” forced open kind of way. We fell in love, she left her fiancé to be with me, and I left my wife.
Our relationship was bonded on an incredible sexual connection, and we worked hard to add the compatible elements of a partnership as we went along, both of us working really hard to stay together, to do our self work, counselling, self examination, group work ect.
We have grown a great love, and understand each other like no one else ever has in our lives, having seen all the warts. She knows me, keeps me honest by not letting me get away with my past patterns, for the most part, stands up to me. She is a strong woman for sure, also a self made woman. A Boss.

We both have a long history with poly. Her with multiply boy/girl friends, me with multiple girlfriends, being the secondary in a MMF. So when it came time for us to want to open up our relationship, to experiment it came pretty naturally for us. We experimented with a threesome, had a great time, moved to a couple, also great except for some compatibility issues, moved on to another threesome, and met this great lady, a student at a local university, looking for us as well. Things started so well, fun, great sex, great communication; we quickly went deeper than any of our previous experiences. My wife was falling in love with this woman, quickly making plans to include her in our life.
I cautioned against rushing in to anything, but was quickly swept up in NRE, let my guard down, quickly developed feelings for this woman, all with the encouragement from my wife. That’s when my Cowboy tendencies started to really come out.

I started pushing our agreed upon boundaries, the physical, the emotional. Initiating contact outside of the triad, initiating sex when it made my wife uncomfortable, always wanting more. I was falling in love with our girlfriend, and it was scaring the shit out of my wife. We would talk and talk with each boundary transgression, I would assure her that it wouldn’t happen again, but still I would find ways to push the limits, always in my head finding ways to justify my actions, my feelings. It came to a head when my wife came home from work and found us in bed together. That changed everything for my wife, killed her NRE for our girlfriend, and was the moment of change in our poly life.

Me chipping away at her trust has now blown a huge hole in our relationship. After a month of trying to work it out she broken up with our girlfriend, again after another boundary transgression, me meeting up with our GF having drinks at a bar with friends, me just showing up unannounced, uninvited. Me just doing what I want, not thinking of anyone else, just being a Cowboy. We had worked our way back to giving the triad another shot, and I just ramble in and fuck everything up with my stupid selfish behaviour. Now I have split up our GF and my wife, who really care about each other but I feel I have eroded my wife’s trust to the point of not wanting to re-establish the relationship. Our GF loves the couple experience, and I have taken that from her. There has been talk of me and our GF continuing on in a V with my wife, but I don’t know if that is even possible now. I really care for our GF, want to keep seeing her but can’t have a relationship with her at the expense of my primary relationship. Yee–fucking-haw.

So I have this battle inside of me, my wants and desires of poly triad partnership with my wife and our (ex)GF, my desire to keep seeing her myself, and my concern for my wife and my love for her and our relationship. Add to it all my Cowboy tendencies and it’s just a party in my head and heart.

I am posting this as a way to get it out of myself, to add to it as it comes. My questions to the community on here are mostly for others like me, reformed Cowboys/girls who like me have struggled with these issues. Any tips on coping or ways to work this out of myself, I really do want to be a better man, to be the man I know I can be. I want to be a good poly man, who lives his life being good to his partners, taking care of their needs and feelings, as well as my own. I want to change these Cowboy ways.

[nycindie]

Hmm, it seems you are using the word "cowboy" in a different way than most poly people use it.

[AnnabelMore]

So, why does the gf bear no responsibility... was she unaware that your wife would object to finding the two of you in bed together? As for the couple experience, your gf can find that with many other people, hot bi babes are always in demand, you haven't taken that chance away from her.

If I were you I would step away and let it be a vee with your wife as the hinge. Let her and the gf be together, if indeed they want that, and you stay out of it until you all feel you've regained some trust. A test, basically -- will you actually be able to stay away? Can you change? Or, maybe you and your wife should abandon poly for the time being altogether while you do some counseling or soul-searching or will-strengthening exercises or something.

Your behavior pattern sounds kind of compulsive. What do you think caused you to act that way? On the one hand, your past history suggests you just have issues that need work, I almost thought antisocial personality at some points since you seemed to have so much self confidence to the point of arrogance paired with so little regard for the feelings of others.

On the other hand, *why* was it so bad for you to be in bed with the gf, or to drop in on a social outing? I feel strongly that even triads need alone time for the various dyads involved so if that wasn't allowed, I can certainly see why you (and, perhaps, she as well) would strain against that particular boundary. Seriously, I can never understand the idea that it's ok to fuck or socialize in a group but not separately, it seems to set people up to break the rules since it's such a natural desire to spend some one-on-one time with someone you like now and then... in my mind anyway. It's like, if you're going to do poly just go for it. How is someone your "girlfriend" if you're not allowed to meet them at a bar? I know that doesn't address the issue you're asking for help with so please excuse the mini-rant, it's just a pet peeve, as someone involved with a married couple.

Kudos, anyway, on wanting to change, nothing can happen without that.

[redpepper]

Good for you fessing up to your short comings as you see it. That is very brave. It seems that you need more bravery and more fessing up however....

This is thread that might help with the term "cowboy." (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2894) It doesn't seem to me that you are a cowboy by the regular descriptions in poly theory. I would say you are a "cheater." With a cheater mindset. I have been one also and it took years to re-train my head.

It takes years to get through the entitlement one learns to take on when one cheats. Its almost as if no one else exists. The concept of being considerate/empathetic/compassionate seems to have to be re-learned. It sounds to me like you have not learned this yet. So start now. Every time you find yourself in desire of what YOU want, ask yourself what would occur if you acted on that. How would your wife feel about it, how would your gf feel, what would the possible scenario unfold if you were to "go there?"

I would suggest that if you have one ounce of doubt about what you are doing, either don't do it and relay the circumstance later to those involved and check if your gut was right, or ask. Make a phone call and check it out. Don't assume anything and don't expect others to be willing to just bend because you want them to. If they say that in no way would they be okay with what you are asking, then don't do it. Walk away.

I would suggest asking your wife for help on this. You seem to be unable to do it alone. You will likely have to make yourself very vulnerable to her and others, but in that, you might be able to re-build your integrity in her eyes so that she can trust you again. You will have to work hard to get to a point where YOU trust yourself again.

[SourGirl]

Actually his negative application, makes more sense then the poly-applied one.
When speaking of ignorant crap, anyhow.

[Jade]

Elemental, I give you total credit for being self-aware. You acknowledge things that few would dare admit to themselves. The challenge you have is to be honest now with others. It won't be pretty. When you live in an untenable lie, the only way to break it and mold it into something real is to be honest about your bullshit.

I wish you luck. You have the intelligence to do it. Now show that you have the courage.

[SchrodingersCat]

On the other hand, *why* was it so bad for you to drop in on a social outing?

Because he wasn't invited. I mean sure, it's a free country and people can go where they please. But when your partner tells you "I'm going out with some friends" and doesn't include "would you like to come?" it's a clear indication that your presence will be unwelcome. Ignoring her desires and showing up uninvited is disrespectful. By the sounds of it, he got in trouble from the girlfriend for intruding on her outing with friends, not from his wife for meeting up with the girlfriend behind the wife's back.

It doesn't seem to me that you are a cowboy by the regular descriptions in poly theory. I would say you are a "cheater." With a cheater mindset. I have been one also and it took years to re-train my head.

While I don't disagree that parts of his (mis)behaviour include cheating, I don't think that's the core of what he's referring to. His issue is much deeper than just cheating, it seems to extend into many aspects of his life.

I think the word he's looking for is "outlaw."

[SchrodingersCat]

My girlfriend started out not unlike you. She cheated on virtually every partner she'd ever had.

Eventually she learned about poly and it changed her life. She started living openly with her partners, started being honest with herself and with them that she could not do monogamy.

So it is possible to reform.

But I think before you start working on being poly, you need to work on yourself. To be blunt: what you describe as "cowboy ways" I describe as "being a jerk." It's not enough to state that as a fact, you have to actually change it. Start doing things for other people. At first, you'll just have to force yourself, but eventually you'll learn how wonderful it feels to make someone happy (other than yourself). Once you get a taste of the reward, you'll probably start doing it more, and that can really be an upward spiral.

[BaggagePatrol]

It does something wonderful to my heart to see you on here; no change can come from outside, only from within, and while there is growth that others can inspire you, it's the growth that you choose to pursue yourself that will alter the course of your life in unimaginably beautiful ways. I am proud of you for being on here, and speaking your truth - for sharing the places you hide, and being honest. Free yourself from old ways, and find a new way of being, am here to support and love you as you find out what that new ways is.

[Magdlyn]

Oh, BP, I thought maybe this guy was your husband. Your situations seem so similar.

[dingedheart]

I don't know anything about the specifics of "cowboy ways" being in the mid west and not being around many cowboys however, self gratifying, addictive, selfish behavior is found everywhere.

Your charm, charisma, intelligence, physical appearance all help you feed this high sex drive. The moment is always worth the risk ...or makes its more exciting. Most likely in the past your skills could get you out of a jam if and when they happened...."it just how I am."

You need coping skills to learn how to honor agreements? Or how not to think with your dick ...How bout a big rubber band ...when starts happening give it a good snap.....oops ....this suggestion just turn on a big segment here...(only try this if this would be considered unpleasant).

Maybe talking to a therapist about past patterns and destructive behaviors....discuss whats really important to you long term.

Good luck D

[AnnabelMore]

Ahh, I see. That provides a lot of context.

If it helps, this kind of thing happens to a lot of couples. My gf and her husband went through something similar in several ways when they were both dating the same girl: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=98156&postcount=123

The husband in their story, Eric, also had a history of bad behaviors and pushing boundaries leading up to their poly triad crisis. In the end, he sort of forced himself to develop a deeper sense of empathy in order to regain his wife's trust... he truly changed himself. They took a year long break from poly and opened back up in a much slower, more deliberate way when they felt they were ready. Things have been MUCH better since.

[elemental]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Just checking in on the tread before I go into more detail, I really like this forum and the posters insight, read it a lot to get perspective, know everyone has an opinion, look forward to adding mine to the mix. Yeah I am Baggage Patrol’s Hubbo, read her posts up for her context. I do think that “outlaw cheater” is a more appropriate title, didn’t have the full scoop on the cowboy reference, that is what BP was referring to me as so I used it. Our GF has also read our posts and hope to encourage her to also add to the forum mix, although she frequents another forum.

Yeah I have to see myself in a clear harsh light and not sugar coat it, seems the only way I can deal. I have done a sht ton of personal work, mostly around addiction/abuse recovery and anger mod, guess the selfish cheater part is next to get the scrubbing lol… anywayz cant stop wont stop right? Looking forward to addressing all the points raised, but for now lets just say thanks for the opportunity to air my sht out, and have a chance to change and grow, I can’t see any other way that appeals to me.

Evolve or die trying

EleMENTAL

[faraday]

I do think that “outlaw cheater” is a more appropriate title

Yeah I have to see myself in a clear harsh light and not sugar coat it, seems the only way I can deal.

Evolve or die trying

EleMENTAL

Take the "outlaw" part off. Outlaw still sounds cool and dangerous and appealing. You are very good at seeing yourself but it still sounds like you are glamorizing your selfishness.

[redpepper]

Take the "outlaw" part off. Outlaw still sounds cool and dangerous and appealing. You are very good at seeing yourself but it still sounds like you are glamorizing your selfishness.yup, agreed, just "cheater." You don't seem to be any different than a lot men I know that cheat so why the "outlaw" part? Its "cheating"... Full stop. Adding any more to it is just self centered and that's part of the problem. Now go change it.

[dragonflysky]

Classic "Addict" behaviors....through and through!! Lived with one.....worked as a therapist with several. Get thee back into some therapy ASAP as you're exhibiting "relapse" behaviors. Sounds like you worked hard in the past to stop the negative behaviors but ran into a trigger(s) you weren't prepared for. Good luck!

[redpepper]

Classic "Addict" behaviors....through and through!! Lived with one.....worked as a therapist with several. Get thee back into some therapy ASAP as you're exhibiting "relapse" behaviors. Sounds like you worked hard in the past to stop the negative behaviors but ran into a trigger(s) you weren't prepared for. Good luck!*like

[elemental]

Ok just “cheater”- cheater confessional. Shit I don’t like that, don’t see myself as totally selfish, a people user and cheater… I do see the addition behavior though from my past, that obsessive compulsion to want more, immediately, that helps to see that, to see myself in a triggered state. That makes a lot of sense to me. Lol at the idea of running to therapy every time something vexes me, I have good friends and self care and self awareness to cope with this life, not that “therapy” isn’t helpful, but I am not so out of control that I can’t take a step back and address the behavior. So that is a helpful insight to me. I feel the same way about creating boundaries in the triad that set up failure, about the need to control the inevitable at times pairing off. In conversations with Baggage Patrol I also see how she would have got there eventually, we (gf and me) just rushed the whole thing. I feel much more in tune with her comfort level and boundary zones, and moving forward see us taking steps back and slowing down the pace of our extra relationships. I also find useful the idea of self checking in before being impulsive / spontaneous and asking questions around my partners comfort zone. I see I need to do work around the perception that boundaries = controlling, something that I chafe against, and really find useful the links to similar stories, of other triad experiences to relate to. I think my attitude of “we’re poly, lets just go for it” has created discomfort with BP slower more cautious approach which just appeared after “the event” of finding GF and me in bed together. Which is an issue for me, because up until that point it was full speed ahead. I think I have taken a lot longer to apply the breaks, once her discomfort started, obviously because I wasn’t feeling it.

[Magdlyn]

OK, so you are Baggage Patrol's husband.

No wonder "poly" isn't working for you two, and BP is so fucking miserable.

BP seems like a wonderful woman and you're really hurting her, elemental. Please, in the name of all that is holy and good, drop your gf, forget about "polyamory" (since what you are doing is in no way poly, but just fucking around), and work on becoming more honest and respectful.

Oh, for the record, the term cowboy, or cowgirl, in poly argot, means a person who becomes a partner, either of one or both of a couple, and tries to cut one of the couple out, and take the partner for him or herself. Hence, our confusion.

[elemental]

whoa, lots of hostility! I earlier tried to post a reply, see that it hasn't come up yet, as to be approved by a moderator? Huh. Well I can see that you have been following BP side of events, but as usual there are more sides to this story, ones that I will save until I talk to BP first about posting, issues in our relationship / in this triad directly that haven't been represented. I take responsibility for my mistakes, but I'm not going to hang around in here and be told I'm just fucking around, because that's not the case! jeezuz

[elemental]

the cowboy reference also comes into play because BP told me she felt like I was stealing her GF away from her:mad:

[AnnabelMore]

Yeah, I've gotta disagree with some of the harshness here.

Putting his past mistakes aside, what have been Elemental's transgressions here? He was in bed naked with his gf, and that was counter to what the group had previously agreed would be their boundary. It takes two to tango, both he and the gf screwed up there by not just asking for what they wanted, especially since it seems from some of BP's posts like she wanted them to take some separate space as well.

So, ok, major screw up bound to cause hurt emotions. But can you honestly call it cheating when this was someone with whom he was already intimate, just in a group setting, and they didn't even have sex per se?

Then there was the time he stopped by the bar. Again, certainly not cheating, just sort of a foolish impulsive thing since they were supposed to be on a beak from the triad at that point. More boundary pushing, potentially hurtful, but I just can't see getting *too* mad at someone for briefly seeing someone they're supposed to be in a relationship with in a public space. I would call that a minor transgression, though of course that's not my call to make since I'm not the one in the situation, and a I'm sure it felt like an extra big deal since they were trying to rebuild trust.

Let's have a little compassion here. Poly may or may not be the right choice for these guys at this time but I think the biggest mistake, which all three of them made, was in setting their boundaries at a place which, to my mind, truly just doesn't work -- all together all the time or nothing. In that context, Elemental screwed up but I don't think he cheated, even if he's been a cheater in the past. And it doesn't seem fair/accurate to say he was trying to steal the gf, either, just by having a little alone time with her... maybe she and he fell for each other more than she and BP, but that's just what tends to happen in triads, in one direction or another. Again, maybe it really did feel like that's what he was doing, and maybe I'm wrong and it really was his intent, consciously or unconsciously to turn the triad into more of a vee... but my guess is it was just that same natural process we seem to see over and over, handled poorly, as It all too often is.

Elemental, people here tend to operate under a model of tough love more often than not. Don't take it too much to heart. We've had people leave permanently before because they couldn't take the heat, which seemed like a huge shame because useful conversations were happening at the same time, so try to have a tough skin if you can! Haha, this coming from the person whobasically suggested you might have antisocial personality disorder above...

[Magdlyn]

No, I don't think elemental was a cowboy in the poly sense. The cowboy/girl, generally speaking, would be the new third person, not one of the couple. Their gf is also not a cowgirl. There are no cowpeople in this case.

I agree that the thinking of this couple to "add" a third and expect all sex to be amongst the 3 was naive... and we constantly see that here. In fact, I made the same mistake when my ex-h and I first tried poly, with typically disastrous results, as BP knows.

But elemental and gf being in bed together naked, sex or not, while BP was supposed to be out (but came home unexpectedly) was a clear crossing of agreed upon boundaries. So was meeting gf in the bar when he was supposed to not be seeing her or communicating with her for 2 weeks. It's not huge or major, but it was still cheating, and still hurt BP. A lot.

Elemental knows he has a habit of breaking boundaries, and transgressing agreements with his primaries in the past, so even though these current transgressions were seemingly minor, they were still wrong, and still messed with BP's head.

However, yes, I applaud Elemental for coming here and "confessing" to his less than respectful patterns, and I hope this is a fresh start to more openness and honesty and eventual healthy polyamory with BP.

[Vinccenzo]

Trust is a two way street. It is not merely doing what you say you will do which is where I see Elemental needing to put work in. It is also saying what you mean as BP (and her hubbo I hope too) discovered some work needs to be put in.
As well it is about believing you can say what you mean and not be "punished" or have it fall on deaf ears.

When Elemental and the GF discovered they wanted some alone time, it should have been shared first with BP. When BP was struggling to feel close to them as a result of being out of their loop, she should have been perhaps clearer about the emotions she was feeling over it and not push herself too much too soon to get over it. I commend the GF for telling Elemental he had to spill about showing up at the bar or she would tell BP herself. It means she knew what it could mean to BP and cared about that more than she cared about what was building between her and Elemental.

Elemental, is there any insight you might have to what gave you the impulse to go around BP in a more vee pattern than the triad situation already afforded you? Did you feel challenged by their rapport or made to feel like you would be eventually hedged out yourself? Do you struggle to not be the center of attention in group situations? Or did you and the GF really want to do away with the rule of all involved but felt BP was not receptive to the idea? Did some part of you know it would create a split between them and make you more the focus of them both?

[AnnabelMore]

Elemental, is there any insight you might have to what gave you the impulse to go around BP in a more vee pattern than the triad situation already afforded you? Did you feel challenged by their rapport or made to feel like you would be eventually hedged out yourself? Do you struggle to not be the center of attention in group situations? Or did you and the GF really want to do away with the rule of all involved but felt BP was not receptive to the idea? Did some part of you know it would create a split between them and make you more the focus of them both?

Yes! I totally meant to ask some of these questions too but got distracted. I think it could be very fruitful to know what happened that resulted in the major beach of trust with you two being in bed together... what were the actions and thought processes that led up to it? It's silly for us to speculate when you could just tell us.

[elemental]

What preceded the event, hmm. Things where moving along swiftly, gf was staying over and bed sharing for days at a time, BP would get up and go to work leaving us to snuggle in bed until we got up. I think part of that was an extension of that, as well as our strong sexual/sensual connection. Partly willful ignorance that if we were not having penetrative sex or foreplay then it was all right to be in bed together, we both enjoyed denying ourselves, which inevitably lead to a more charged sexual atmosphere that helped alienate BP. Part of me feels like if we would have been allowed to have sex then there would have been less pressure on BP, but it seems the hurt would have still been there no matter which way we took it. I think willful ignorance, not seeing how our actions where stressing BP out added a lot to the mix. I guess I can attribute it to a certain selfishness, selflessness has never been my strongpoint, although I do find great satisfaction in acts of service as a love language. There where other boundary transgressions, probably to some minor but when all added up and mixed with past hurt was all too much for BP. I know now that I handled that whole situation poorly, on everyone’s behalf.

One of the early boundary struggles I had was around communication, as BP was handling all of that, I could read up on the emailing and txts but had no independent communication with our gf, and that bothered me. At times I could see the logic in it as they grew their friendship, but as we became more of a triad I began to resent the limited communication I had. I wanted to be able to say “ thinking of you” without it being a boundary issue, but it was. Eventually that boundary was negotiated but not without lots of processing.

I think once the relationship got moving along ( too quickly) I started to resent some of the boundaries and my old patterns of rebelliousness where triggered, as well as our swelling NRE which kicked in the desire for more part of it. All of which attributed to BP’s feelings of being alienated and overwhelmed. She wrote a real nice piece about her experience in the blog section of the forum “ Ideals vs Realities”.

[elemental]

Some pretty hard realizations hit me this morning, this part should be called the “addict confessional”, and I am really struggling with the realization that a lot of my behavioral pattern is built up from my addictive nature, that all the signs along the way have shown me that I was back sliding into old patterns. I guess feeling good in recovery and letting my guard down, it seems to start with little things, drinking more regularly, started smoking more regularly, the more intense sexual experiences, tripping on the nre, losing sight of the selfish behavior, all that justification bllsht. UGH. Got to get out of the downward spiral and get clear.

[Vinccenzo]

You remind me a bit of my husband. Well, not so much now but how he use to be. So don't wallow too much because the work you need to put in and the better habits you need to establish are not impossible. And it might bring to you what it unexpectedly brought to him - real pride and peace of mind. It might not sound as sexy as "outlaw" to you but it sure has made things sexier around my house than it use to be!

[SNeacail]

Some pretty hard realizations hit me this morning

I hate mornings like that :eek:

[AnnabelMore]

Ok, so you and the gf already had a history of being alone in bed together, presumably naked (or not? I sleep naked but I know not everyone does), with BP leaving you two alone to snuggle when she went to work. The problem occurred when the gf was left in bed by both of you, and you came back home first and got back into bed with her naked. Is that correct? Was there, in fact, a clear rule about this sort of situation? I'm not trying to make excuses for you, since you yourself seem to feel very strongly that what you did was wrong, but the boundaries here seem really fuzzy to me.

Did you know that what you were doing that day would cause a huge stir if BP found out, or did you think it would be ok? Did you plan to tell her, or did you not think that far? Was, in fact, any sexy stuff happening, or was it just snuggling along the lines of what you two had already been doing in bed together alone with BP's knowledge on the days when she left for work first? Did you leave work early specifically to spend time with the gf, or did it just happen to work out that you got home early? Was the gf still in bed when you got home, or did you two get back in bed?

These may seem like really invasive questions, and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to answer, but the nuances here seem important to me since this was the point at which everything started to fall apart, and I still have no idea, as an outside observer, of what actually happened.

[nycindie]

Things where moving along swiftly, gf was staying over and bed sharing for days at a time, BP would get up and go to work leaving us to snuggle in bed until we got up. I think part of that was an extension of that, as well as our strong sexual/sensual connection. Partly willful ignorance that if we were not having penetrative sex or foreplay then it was all right to be in bed together, we both enjoyed denying ourselves, which inevitably lead to a more charged sexual atmosphere that helped alienate BP. Part of me feels like if we would have been allowed to have sex then there would have been less pressure on BP...

One of the early boundary struggles I had was around communication, as BP was handling all of that, I could read up on the emailing and txts but had no independent communication with our gf, and that bothered me. At times I could see the logic in it as they grew their friendship, but as we became more of a triad I began to resent the limited communication I had. I wanted to be able to say “ thinking of you” without it being a boundary issue, but it was. Eventually that boundary was negotiated but not without lots of processing.

I think once the relationship got moving along ( too quickly) I started to resent some of the boundaries and my old patterns of rebelliousness where triggered, as well as our swelling NRE which kicked in the desire for more part of it. All of which attributed to BP’s feelings of being alienated and overwhelmed.

There was another triad who posted here a while back, a married couple and a gf, and they also had the same rules about only having sex when all three were together and all communications with the gf (dates being set up, etc.) go through the wife. This was insisted upon by the wife.

It made the gf feel really shitty, like she was only being contacted and used for sex. The gf and husband had become close and wanted more of a relationship. Everything fell apart and the gf was left very skittish about poly because of it, and I believe the unrealistic rules were really the reason why.

Obviously, if three people are in a relationship, they should all have the freedom to talk to each other and not be monitored. When one person has a gf or bf, they share many things in a relationship, like communication, dreams, hopes, non-sexy times as well as sexy times -- it shouldn't be any different when someone is a gf to two people, whether those two people are married or not.

What it boils down to, I think, is respecting everyone as individuals and equals, and not placing the gf at a lower level than the couple nor putting anyone in a special category. Maybe you and BP have different visions of what a girlfriend should be, and how you would like to see the future unfolding for all of you. I think all three of you need to talk about things like this together.

[redpepper]

If anyone is interested, if you do a tag search for "triads" "triad" then you will see that this kind of thing is not uncommon in terms of "rules" rather than "boundary negotiations"... rules that keep people from loving to the best of their ability and in the way that comes naturally.

[elemental]

NYCindie, I struggle with the definitions of primary and secondary, like logically I can understand the concept, but practically it is difficult for me, love is love in my heart. I can understand BP wanting me to think of her needs first in all situations, maybe that’s where I stumble.

Putting my wants needs and desires and BP wants needs and desires and our GF W,N+D all into play, I gets confused. In BP’s mind it is really very so clear it seems, in my mind not so much. I work to let her know my love for her as my wife is unconditional and all accepting and look to take care of her needs first and foremost as much as possible, and then there are my needs as well. Maybe this situation is exposing some co-dependency in our relationship that was running under the surface. Maybe me treating our GF like an equal in terms of intimacy has threatened BP. I just struggle so mightily to control my capacity to love like I want to, like I know I can. I need to find a better way to do this.
I want to treat our GF equally, in turn it has hurt and alienated BP by stomping on boundaries.

Annabell, I did know on some level what we where doing was wrong. I was working at home that day, and had not seen our GF over the xmas break for a couple of weeks. We were snuggling, but there was a sexy vibe for sure, we where in love and horny. She was lounging in bed late, and I came in for lunch and got back into bed, 15 min later BP came home. I guess I just got greedy for that physical connection, that’s my main love language by far. I agree nuances are important, they ultimately define intent in my opinion.

BP has laid it all out in her recent blog post, we are in a tough spot. She has lost huge respect for me, and respect has always been a big beef in our relationship, we are both very alpha. When I feel disrespected we fight, a lot. This has been a very humbling experience, hurting the ones I love the most always has, and I have ended up hurting BP and our GF. Emotionally we are both burned out from a month and a half of intense upset and processing, and with BP exploring “ exit strategies “ I’m feeling pretty grim. There is still love there and the story is not finished, but certainly one of the darker moments in our relationship.:confused::(

[nycindie]

Not every poly tangle needs hierarchical primary and secondary designations.

[AnnabelMore]

Ok, to recap then. Snuggling naked in bed one-on-one before getting up for the day = OK. Snuggling naked in bed one-on-one after one of you has gotten up for the day = a boundary violation that constitutes a possibly-deal-breaking breach of trust.

Would it have been ok if you had gotten up to grab a glass of water that morning and then gotten back into bed after that, or is the zone of ok-ness broken the moment you get out of bed? If you had kept your clothes on at lunch, but had gotten back into bed, would that have been ok? What if you'd been clothed but still hard? What if you've been naked but limp?

The line was not that you weren't allowed to be alone together, or that you weren't allowed to be alone in bed together, or that you weren't allowed to be alone in bed together naked... because you were already doing all that!! Just at a different time of day. So, the line was that you were not allowed to do it after one of you got up? Or that you weren't allowed to get hard?

You probably should have thought twice on this, assumed that ANYthing that hadn't yet occurred was not ok until explicitly ok'ed, and held off until talking to BP. But if I'm understanding everything correctly... and correct me if I'm not... I think I would have been confused in this situation, I think I would not have known what exactly was ok and what wasn't, and I might have made a similar mistake. And I don't consider myself a cheater.

I'm not trying to say anything about what should happen next... I've given some perspectives about that on BP's journal and it's a complicated question... just trying to dig down to the core of the major break that occurred here and look at it from as objective a perspective as I can (obviously I, like anyone else, come with my own set of biases). I don't know how helpful that is? But it seems important to me.

[AnnabelMore]

As for primary/secondary, I think of them as being useful as descriptive categories. A primary is someone you share your heart, body, and your life with, someone you've made commitments with, a life-partner. A secondary is someone you share your heart and your body with, though maybe not in all the same ways, but is not someone with whom you're actively building a shared life. BP is, in fact, Elemental's primary. The gf is, in fact, his (and her?) secondary.

Generally, people who are managing poly relationships that fall into different categories like that (not necessarily because they've been prescribed into those categories, I'm not much if a fan of that, but because that's just how it is) prioritize their primary relationship(s) (yes, you can have more than one). I consider that to be good and healthy. If my gf was regularly considering my needs before those of her husband... the man with whom she shares a mortgage, a child, and a much longer commitment... I'd be not ok with that. I need to be important to her. But for her life to function, considering the much bigger impact they have on each other, he needs to be important to her more. Maybe that'll change some day. It's already shifted in some ways, after 2+ years of she and I being together. But especially when our relationship was newer, primary/secondary was just right/natural, and it still is.

So, no, not every poly tangle needs hierarchy. But I do think many of them healthily incorporate it, and that that's totally ok.

[redpepper]

As for primary/secondary, I think of them as being useful as descriptive categories. A primary is someone you share your heart, body, and your life with, someone you've made commitments with, a life-partner. A secondary is someone you share your heart and your body with, though maybe not in all the same ways, but is not someone with whom you're actively building a shared life. I kinda agree with you Annabel, but I have noticed that most poly people, once in poly dynamics for awhile, tend to agree that primary generally means someone you have shared finances with, shared children with, shared assets with. To me its nothing to do with love. Secondaries can be loved just as much but don't have the same "joined" life. More tag searches would reveal many discussions on this topic.

I don't think its fair or realistic to expect or assume one persons needs and concerns be over another. Sure, starting out it might be wise until ones "primary" gets used to the situation, or whatever the circumstance, but working toward equality to me is what holds relationship dynamics together.

[elemental]

Double dose of reality today, our triad is over AND my personal relationship with our GF is untenable for BP, so that needs to be over as well. We have lost the dream of the poly-fi triad and I have lost a friend and a lover. It seems BP wants a total break, no communication whatsoever. What choice do I have? Our relationship hangs in the balance. BP wants me to come to these decisions on my own, to naturally defend our relationship at all costs, wants for primary to MEAN something. We have had so much fighting, so much processing over this, I am numb. I tell her just tell me what you want; what do I need to do to start us on a healing path. I reflective listen, use non violent communication, try to not defend my position, my perspective. I am such a fiery person, BP use to be attracted to that, now I am not so sure. We work so hard at this, when did so much become so little, when did too little become too much? My best intentions are such a fucking wreck right now. This has become stream of consciousness bullshit.

I’m not going to respond to this thread anymore, let it fade off into the back pages of this forum. Thanks to everyone who read and responded with kind and not so kind words, I’m good with that, I benefit from a little butt kicking when I deserve it. I really found the input helpful, the links stories and suggestions. I value every ones perspective. I will stay active, read, post when I can, add my 2cents when and where I think it would help. Try to find another, better way to love with this fierce heart that I have. Fuck.

[AnnabelMore]

My sympathies to all three of you. Take care of yourself!!