My Journey from agnostic - atheist

[bassman]

I'm really struggling here. When we got married, 12 years ago, I suppose I was agnostic, and I viewed church folk as harmless, and I thought it was a bit of a social club where you can meet honest people with good values. My wife is very keen, and goes most weekends, and attends a meeting every 2nd Wed night, too.

But over the years I became less interested. Then I played Bass for the church occasionally. One some of those occasions they were really rude to me, treated me like a piece of sh1t actually. I didnt make a scene, but I told them one day - "I am volunteer - I am giving up my time to do this. Now please dont ask me to play ever again". and they didnt,!

Ok, I didnt stop my wife going..

My boy was about 1 at that stage. Then I lost my job, and I was picking up contract work here and there. Things were bad financially. Soon we were paying the mortgage using the credit card, and things got worse and worse.

During that year, I made a measly £17 000 - (USD 34 000). We had credit cards with debt of £10 000 plus on !

Then I got a reasonably paid permanent job, and I sat down and devised a plan to get us out of the debt. I realised that I was paying all the bills, and that without my wifes money (She'd gone back to work at this stage), we'd be stuck in debt. She was reluctant to help me pay the bills - I remember one day specifically asking her to help me buy 1 tin of paint for the house, and she refused !!

Ok, I dont mind giving - we were (and still are) sponsoring a child in Africa, we were sending money to another family in Africa too, and she was sending bits and bobs to other (good) causes here and there. No doubt the church was getting money, too, but I didnt know how much at that stage. I was getting a bit frustrated now with this church business. One time I went there with her, and I was flabbergasted to see a NEW, huge Mercedes truck and trailer, emblazoned with their logo and all on it. I thought "bloody hell, what does THAT cost, and why are they spending our money on that?" - it was a fully equipped mobile stage so they can go round and spread the word, you know?

Now, she was sending money to these goons, and refusing to help me maintain the house????? Something was wrong, surely???

I thought "surely the church would be reasonable, and advise us to get out of debt, before sending them money?" right? So, I met a woman in the congregation, calling herself a "financial advisor", and I asked her to look at our family finances. (It turns out she was just an insurance seller, but had glamourised her title to "financial advisor").
Well, I sat through a few hours of the WORST financial advice Ive ever heard, and then it materialised that my wife was sending 10% of her salary to the church, and this muppet said this was the "Scripturally correct thing to do".

Wait - 10 percent???? £300 / month? ($600). Yep. While we're in £10K debt??? -- Yep. (They call it a "tithe" - the bible has a story about how the farmers would donate 10% of their crop to the local village. No-one can explain to me how THAT story equeates to me having to send 10% of my earnings to an affluent pastor!! ????)

So I looked up what I could, to find out about the leaders of this church. Would you like to guess how much their property portfolio is worth? $500 000 maybe? nope - $1 000 000? - nope, $10 000 000? - er, no, keep going - $50 000 000???? - err no way !! MORE!
Ladies and gentleman, I give you Brian and Booby Houston, hillsong church, value of property portfolio.... $100 000 000 ---- Yes, ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS worth of property!! And *I* am sending *THEM* money???? wtf?

I was MAD! We were in debt, have no plan for retirement, no plan for my boy's education, and yet these b*stards had talked my wife into this tithe (sic) nonsense? (What hurt the most that those funds were being diverted away from my son's future).
I mulled it over for a few days, and then I let my wife know that if she doesnt stop sending our money to those twats, I was going to leave and file for divorce.

I asked if our other donations count towards this 10% (sic) rule, and no, they dont !! so we agreed instead to send money to my needy Aunt, and to start a savings acc to help my boy in the future. After about 3 years of this arrangement, she has finally agreed to stop, and put money into sharing our living expenses.

She was defiant and would not see my point of view on the finances. Eventually she went for counselling, and eventually agreed that our debt, our expenses, and our son's future were the priorities.


Meantime I thought and thought about the whole god thing, and I discovered Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchins, with Dawkins (The god delusion) helping me see it was all based on legend, myth, and not a scrap of evidence anywhere. I became atheist there and then.

My wife still attends, but I dont think shes let on to anyone that she's not paying anymore. By hosting the Wed night thing (I stay out of sight!), she is doing her bit to help the church.
(I'd rather see the back of them forever, but I need to let her decide that. If I push, she will probably choose them over me and my boy, as usual)

[SNeacail]

She seriously needs to find a different church!!! Yeah, I know, not bloody likely.

About 7 years ago, I started my struggle with my faith in God. I have since found what I will call my foundation and am re-building everything else from scratch. I grew up "Evangelical, born-again Christian" and for me about 99% of it is a lot of man made bull shit.

The pastor I had during my high school years played a significant part in me being able to finally see all the bs. One of his big pushes, was that he was just a man, giving his version of what he read and studied and he could be wrong. He encouraged us to study and look into on our own. After that, I never did put up with arogant, high and mighty preachers.

I no longer attend "church", but I do still have my faith. I no longer call my self a "Christian" because I don't want to be associated with "religion" for so many reasons. My mother sees my (and my brother) as lost souls because we don't subscribe to ALL of her beliefs... so be it.

I have been to "Christian" counceling and have gotten very different advice and had different experiences than what you faced. However, what you faced is not all that uncommon in some of the more militant churches, which even before my "crisis in faith" I stayed well away from.

My advice is for you to interview a few Christian marriage/family councelors, that are not in anyway affiliated with your wife's church. If you find one that doesn't creep you out or piss you off, try going to that one with your wife - knowing people like your wife, the title of "Christian" holds more weight and she won't be as ready to dismiss what they have to say.

A couple verses that I have used, both for myself and to stop others (mainly my mother) in their tracks are Matthew 22:37-40 and Romans 14.

[bassman]

Thanks for all that.

I am not interested in any advice from anyone calling themselves christian , i'm afraid, and I think she knows it. They have shown themselves to me, to be willing to completely override my family's well being, and be puppets for the good of the pastor.

There is a glimmer of hope.
My wife is a geologist, and she recently came around to the idea of evolution , and yes, human evolution. In fact, we sat together and went through the slides (100 of them) from a human evolution course I attended, and she was reasonably interested. The topic of creation, Adam and Eve, and the Ark never came up. She read the slides and even commented to help me understand some of the terms.

So I'm kind of hoping she is thinking "Ok, the church was wrong about the finances, they are wrong on the creation, Noahs ark, and Adam and Eve. I wonder what else they are lying about?"

Its a long shot, I know, but I hope this might just be the start of her coming around.

I dont want to run her down too much, she is a people pleaser, she loves people, (its one of the things I love about her) as I do, but she takes everything everyone says as honest, whereas I am sceptical most of the time.

So I live in hope, and I am waiting, waiting, waiting.... all the time I distance myself more and more from the church. Thank goodness she doesnt insist on my boy attending. He is 7 now, and every Sunday we give him the choice - "Would you like to go to kid's church with mom, or stay home with Daddy", and he almost always chooses to stay with me.

I have a lil sailboat, and in Winter (now), the club only opens Sunday, so my sailing has taken a back seat (He is too small for Sailing). But I dont care, I stay home with him - I dont want him NEAR the place !

[bassman]

My advice is for you to interview a few Christian marriage/family councelors, that are not in anyway affiliated with your wife's church. If you find one that doesn't creep you out or piss you off, try going to that one with your wife - knowing people like your wife, the title of "Christian" holds more weight and she won't be as ready to dismiss what they have to say.



A while ago, we did try counselling, to try and discuss this church thing - (NOT through the church) its a bit of a long story, but our counsellor showed her lack of interest by neglecting to turn up at our last appointment - I lost interest at that point. :-( :( :( :(

[bassman]

I have a good mind to write to the catholic church and ask them for my foreskin back now. What the F*CK are they doing, mutilating children's genitals???:mad:

[SNeacail]

I am not interested in any advice from anyone calling themselves christian , i'm afraid, and I think she knows it. They have shown themselves to me, to be willing to completely override my family's well being, and be puppets for the good of the pastor.

Not all Christian's are like those from your wife's church. Unfortunately, it's those like at your wife's church that have me not wanting to identify as Christian either. Your anger is understandable and is very like my brother's against the "church" in general (he had other issues). He blames the church for the destruction of his marriage and I won't argue that it likely played a significant part.

My wife is a geologist, and she recently came around to the idea of evolution , and yes, human evolution. In fact, we sat together and went through the slides (100 of them) from a human evolution course I attended, and she was reasonably interested. The topic of creation, Adam and Eve, and the Ark never came up. She read the slides and even commented to help me understand some of the terms.

Never have been able to understand the arguement against evolution. To me science doesn't prove God doesn't exist or isn't the creator, just proves the bible isn't this magically "divine" thing. It was writen by men and encompases all man's narrow minded finite views of life. To me to say evolution is impossible puts human limits on what God can do. Just compare Genesis 1 vs Genesis 2.:eek:

So I'm kind of hoping she is thinking "Ok, the church was wrong about the finances, they are wrong on the creation, Noahs ark, and Adam and Eve. I wonder what else they are lying about?"

Don't get me started. :D

I dont want to run her down too much, she is a people pleaser, she loves people, (its one of the things I love about her) as I do, but she takes everything everyone says as honest, whereas I am sceptical most of the time.

Don't try and poke holes in her basic faith in God, but in the churches interpretation of what God says, wants or is. Attacking HER faith will only keep the walls up and the fighting gloves on, instead encourage her to do her own research with sources outside her church/denomination.

[bassman]

Don't try and poke holes in her basic faith in God, but in the churches interpretation of what God says, wants or is. Attacking HER faith will only keep the walls up and the fighting gloves on, instead encourage her to do her own research with sources outside her church/denomination.

I am trying to encourage her rather than attack. I am sitting back and waiting, but I hope to get her on the same human evolution course I attended in Africa (at the Cradle of Humankind, a site loaded with fossils), to encourage that avenue.

I'm sorry there's no ploy content here, folks, but I see this forum as a brilliant source for relationships and their issues, and its helped me greatly.

Heck, if I could afford it, I'd get RedPepper over here to mediate a religious discussion between my wife and I ! :o

[Quath]

I am pretty "out" in my atheism. I have had a lot of conversations about religion from people of all beliefs. I also hate the tithing system. It seems to hurt so many people who really can't afford it.

Unfortunately, a lot of Christian churches are preaching "prosperity" gospel. The idea is if you give a lot of money to the Church, God will reward you with even more money. Of course, it doesn't work out and people who are having a hard financial crisis are worse off. I did find a good article (http://www.alternet.org/story/153448/how_we_all_pay_for_the_huge_tax_privileges_granted _to_religion_--_it%27s_time_to_tax_the_church/?page=entire) on how well the churches are making out and how hypocritical they are being with this prosperity gospel. The article is focused on the question on whether the church should be taxed like any other business or not.

I have found that becoming less fundamental is a slow process. I would suggest friendly conversations with your wife, but don't be afraid to bring up some tough issues.

For example, I was talking to a neighbor about gay marriage. He said that he wanted to follow a Biblical definition of marriage. So I started to quote all the other Biblical marriage laws like forcing a raped woman to marry her rapist or killing non-virgin brides in front of her parents.

Most religious stories and rules have very bad logical outcomes if you think about them fully. One example came from a Catholic friend. In school, he was told by a nun that a remarried man is committing adultery if the first wife is still alive. If the man dies in this state, he goes to hell because he is in a constant state of sin. He could ask for forgiveness, but because he is still remarried, he is instantly in a state of sin again. So my friend asked, "If the man kills his wife, he can ask forgiveness and go to heaven." The nun admitted that it would work, but said it shouldn't be done. (Dogma says one thing, but most people tend to go with values they were brought up with instead.)

I would suggest going to some atheist blogs. Lots of people deal with this stuff. My two favorites are Daylight Atheism (http://bigthink.com/blogs/daylight-atheism) and Pharyngula (http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/).

From the people who have converted from theism to atheism, most have done so from getting more education. The "God Delusion" is a good book for people on the fence. However, it may help those who are becoming less dogmatic.

[Magdlyn]

Ugh, those mega churches! We have a lot of them in the US. Ted Haggard led one and was found to be canoodling with a male prostitute. That was a fun news story. There are others...

I see them as big entertainment packages, with the flashing lights, applauding dancing crowds on their feet, and loud insistent music of a rock concert. I understand some churches even pass out glow sticks now! All they need is some Ecstasy and it would be a rave.

I've got nothing against entertainment and rock and roll. I've got nothing against having a "community" of like minded individuals to do things with. I draw the line at the pastors taking money from lower income, not well educated congregations, and spending much of the millions on large homes, fleets of fancy cars and generally affluent lifestyles.

I'm glad you've made the effort to at least stop the siphoning away of your hard earned and much needed pounds towards this tacky church.

And cognitive dissonance is the only explanation for an educated scientist like your wife to ascribe to fundie beliefs. It's really crazy, the knots people tie themselves up in to continue believing in magic... even Jews know most of their book (the Old Testament) is myth and psychology and ancient politics.

[SNeacail]

... even Jews know most of their book (the Old Testament) is myth and psychology and ancient politics.

Yet to even suggest such a thing to a "fundamentalist" will have you labled as blasphamous.:eek: :D. That was an interesting conversation with my mother.

[bassman]

I am pretty "out" in my atheism. I have had a lot of conversations about religion from people of all beliefs. I also hate the tithing system. It seems to hurt so many people who really can't afford it.

Unfortunately, a lot of Christian churches are preaching "prosperity" gospel. The idea is if you give a lot of money to the Church, God will reward you with even more money. Of course, it doesn't work out and people who are having a hard financial crisis are worse off. I did find a good article (http://www.alternet.org/story/153448/how_we_all_pay_for_the_huge_tax_privileges_granted _to_religion_--_it%27s_time_to_tax_the_church/?page=entire) on how well the churches are making out and how hypocritical they are being with this prosperity gospel. The article is focused on the question on whether the church should be taxed like any other business or not.

I have found that becoming less fundamental is a slow process. I would suggest friendly conversations with your wife, but don't be afraid to bring up some tough issues.

For example, I was talking to a neighbor about gay marriage. He said that he wanted to follow a Biblical definition of marriage. So I started to quote all the other Biblical marriage laws like forcing a raped woman to marry her rapist or killing non-virgin brides in front of her parents.

Most religious stories and rules have very bad logical outcomes if you think about them fully. One example came from a Catholic friend. In school, he was told by a nun that a remarried man is committing adultery if the first wife is still alive. If the man dies in this state, he goes to hell because he is in a constant state of sin. He could ask for forgiveness, but because he is still remarried, he is instantly in a state of sin again. So my friend asked, "If the man kills his wife, he can ask forgiveness and go to heaven." The nun admitted that it would work, but said it shouldn't be done. (Dogma says one thing, but most people tend to go with values they were brought up with instead.)

I would suggest going to some atheist blogs. Lots of people deal with this stuff. My two favorites are Daylight Atheism (http://bigthink.com/blogs/daylight-atheism) and Pharyngula (http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/).

From the people who have converted from theism to atheism, most have done so from getting more education. The "God Delusion" is a good book for people on the fence. However, it may help those who are becoming less dogmatic.

"Like" all of this !

[bassman]

Ugh, those mega churches! We have a lot of them in the US. Ted Haggard led one and was found to be canoodling with a male prostitute. That was a fun news story. There are others...

I see them as big entertainment packages, with the flashing lights, applauding dancing crowds on their feet, and loud insistent music of a rock concert. I understand some churches even pass out glow sticks now! All they need is some Ecstasy and it would be a rave.

I've got nothing against entertainment and rock and roll. I've got nothing against having a "community" of like minded individuals to do things with. I draw the line at the pastors taking money from lower income, not well educated congregations, and spending much of the millions on large homes, fleets of fancy cars and generally affluent lifestyles.

I'm glad you've made the effort to at least stop the siphoning away of your hard earned and much needed pounds towards this tacky church.

And cognitive dissonance is the only explanation for an educated scientist like your wife to ascribe to fundie beliefs. It's really crazy, the knots people tie themselves up in to continue believing in magic... even Jews know most of their book (the Old Testament) is myth and psychology and ancient politics.

"Like" all of this !

[bassman]

About a month ago, I had a chat with one of her fellowship group members. Ive been a bit distant with my wife ever since, because it brought up that huge mistrust I feel for them.

it doesnt help that she had bad pms the week after and was really grumpy to me and our boy.

Our festive season has not been all that festive:confused:

Anyway, I soldier on !

Tomorrow is a typical Sunday, I'll go out in ly lil boat in the morning, and she'll be off to church in the aft.

[Quath]

My grandmother tried to reconvert me several times. She said she wanted to be able to see me in heaven. I asked her if heaven was a place of endless joy. She said it was. I asked her that if I did go to hell, would she still be happy in heaven.

She paused because there is no good answer to that. If she is happy, then it shows she doesn't care about me or hell is no big deal (or she has been modified so much that she is not really who she was). If she isn't happy, then heaven is not so pleasant after all.

She talked about God being perfectly good. I asked her why he would send people to hell then. After all, he could put someone into an endless sleep instead of torturing them for eternity.

In the end, she said she had no answers but hoped one day I would meet someone who had them. I commented that it shows there is a problem if she can not work out these issues with her beliefs.

Something you can say about giving money to the church is that God has no need for money. He could poof anything into existence. So money is only for the priests.

Something else to bring up is how much you can trust the Bible. For example, there is a good book called "Misquoting Jesus" where an evangelical scholar tries to find out the original text of the Bible. In the end, he basically concluded that so much has been changed, it is hard to know what to trust anymore.

[bassman]

My grandmother tried to reconvert me several times. She said she wanted to be able to see me in heaven. I asked her if heaven was a place of endless joy. She said it was. I asked her that if I did go to hell, would she still be happy in heaven.


lol! Fantastic !


She paused because there is no good answer to that. If she is happy, then it shows she doesn't care about me or hell is no big deal (or she has been modified so much that she is not really who she was). If she isn't happy, then heaven is not so pleasant after all.


Oh, the quandry ! It is a dilemma, but the religious seem to have this compartment where everything is true, and logic doesnt feature in it at all. Once youve shut that part of your brain down, agnostism/atheism is sooo easy! I admit, it is FUN to imagine an after life, but honestly, we dont have a single scrap of evidence for there being one.



She talked about God being perfectly good. I asked her why he would send people to hell then. After all, he could put someone into an endless sleep instead of torturing them for eternity.

In the end, she said she had no answers but hoped one day I would meet someone who had them. I commented that it shows there is a problem if she can not work out these issues with her beliefs.

"like!"


Something you can say about giving money to the church is that God has no need for money. He could poof anything into existence. So money is only for the priests.


Luckily she has mostly seen sense on this one. We do send money, but not to any church - we sponsor a child in Africa and one or 2 other small charities etc. She asked me a few months ago about sending a small amount to this church, and I restated my position, that I dont want them EVER to see our money again. She has reluctantly accepted that position.
[/QUOTE]



Something else to bring up is how much you can trust the Bible. For example, there is a good book called "Misquoting Jesus" where an evangelical scholar tries to find out the original text of the Bible. In the end, he basically concluded that so much has been changed, it is hard to know what to trust anymore.
Lol - "evangelical scholar" seems like a complete waste of time for me, as does "find the original text" - what the hell for, anyway? all superstitious nonsense, I'm afraid :-(

[bassman]

Our festive season has not been all that festive:confused:



We did have a really nice time last night, with our little boy, and things are good.

(except for the part about her going to church today, I'd rather she was going to see a boyfriend, LOL!!) :D :D :D

[Magdlyn]

Something else to bring up is how much you can trust the Bible. For example, there is a good book called "Misquoting Jesus" where an evangelical scholar tries to find out the original text of the Bible. In the end, he basically concluded that so much has been changed, it is hard to know what to trust anymore.

Oh, I LOVE that book. I've read it twice. It's a great compliment to The God Delusion, actually, for anyone that used to be Christian but always felt there were weird contradictions and absurdities in the Bible. "Misquoting" points out exactly why this is so.

[bassman]

ive been away from home for 3 weeks, plus the weekends on either side, so that makes 4 weekends.

I was a bit surprised when she announced last night that shes off to church this morning. :mad:

[RunicWolf]

A couple of thoughts:


I no longer attend "church", but I do still have my faith. I no longer call my self a "Christian" because I don't want to be associated with "religion" for so many reasons. My mother sees my (and my brother) as lost souls because we don't subscribe to ALL of her beliefs... so be it.

I second this one. Matter of fact, if some of my old "Christian" friends knew who I was hanging around with they'd flip shit (mostly pagans, heathens, atheists, and agnostics). The state of most organized religion has me rather sick. How can so many "scholars" be so wrong when the text is so plain?


She talked about God being perfectly good. I asked her why he would send people to hell then. After all, he could put someone into an endless sleep instead of torturing them for eternity.

Actually reading the bible and not listening to the preacher helps here. The idea of Hell being a fire and torture filled pit for sinners was added by Dante to make The Divine Comedy more interesting. All the Bible says about it is that it's an eternal separation from God and Heaven. Not terribly interesting and not something atheists, or even most people, would fear.

I've thankfully never had to walk a separate path, religiously speaking, from my spouse but I know several couples that have. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it's the cause of the split. That said, I wish you the best of luck on your journey.

[BrigidsDaughter]

I grew up in a non-denominational church; my pastor was just a man like everyone else - a scientist who returned to the faith later in life; he taught us to question and think critically about our faith; if we chose to tithe to the church, we could decide whether we wanted out money to be a general tithe, go towards the building fund, or towards missions projects/ including missionaries we were supporting. It was never forced. There was no dress code, everyone was welcome, and it always felt like a safe and welcoming home to me. (Growing up in an abusive household, I spent 3 days a week at church because they were supportive, caring human beings who respected my choice not to report it) Where tithing was concerned, that 10% could be anything from money, to time, to finding a bus in the junk yard and brining it to the attention to some mechanics w/in the congregation who fixed it up.

Fast forward 3 years to when Runic Wolf and I moved back to our home town when he left the Army and whoa! Our beloved pastor had retired, the new guy who had taken over was of the mega church mindset, tithe was the focus of 3 months worth of sermons. Only officially recognized members could know where the money was being spent and Runic Wolf was not considered a member all of the sudden, so they wanted him to attend "membership classes". When I went to the membership meeting, there were all the people I grew up with and respected trying to defend our church to this guy who had brought in his experts and who said that we'd dropped the ball.... that it didn't matter how many people came to know Christ because of the way we used to do things, because they weren't recorded and now attending our church, we needed to do things his way. It was very disheartening and we stopped attending almost immediately. Our pastor returned for the 25th Anniversary of the church and we returned for that event, but that was it.

[Quath]

Actually reading the bible and not listening to the preacher helps here. The idea of Hell being a fire and torture filled pit for sinners was added by Dante to make The Divine Comedy more interesting. All the Bible says about it is that it's an eternal separation from God and Heaven. Not terribly interesting and not something atheists, or even most people, would fear.
I got into a discussion about hell with a few Christians and they were all over the place on it. Here (http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/hell.html) is a website that shows the Bible verses that support a fiery, horrible place of torture and fire that is not separation from God.

From what I can tell, the Christians who object to this idea object on mostly moralistic grounds that God should not be so evil as to torture people for all of eternity for an Earthly decision. If you go with Hell being separation from God, you have to give up that God is omnipresent.

[bassman]

I grew up in a non-denominational church; my pastor was just a man like everyone else - a scientist who returned to the faith later in life; he taught us to question and think critically about our faith; if we chose to tithe to the church, we could decide whether we wanted out money to be a general tithe, go towards the building fund, or towards missions projects/ including missionaries we were supporting. It was never forced. There was no dress code, everyone was welcome, and it always felt like a safe and welcoming home to me. (Growing up in an abusive household, I spent 3 days a week at church because they were supportive, caring human beings who respected my choice not to report it) Where tithing was concerned, that 10% could be anything from money, to time, to finding a bus in the junk yard and brining it to the attention to some mechanics w/in the congregation who fixed it up.

See, now, this is the kind of thing I thought we were going to get into. When we were married 12 years ago, I had imagined, in my mind, a place with a sort of a community feeling about it, and I could fully get involved in something like that, as a volunteer, but not a believer. Such a place never materialised, and when I look back now, we flitted from church to church. I remember us one time, having a meeting with someone from a church, as a preliminary to attending a serious of evenings , like a 101 (or alpha course). And this guy dropped a few "You should be doing this", and "you should be doing that", and it got my back up immediately, and we never did do the course. When I think back now, that was probably one of the first small red flags that went up for me, and Ive never forgotten that meeting. Perhaps that small red flag told me to watch out for more red flags, and the flags have been getting bigger and bigger ever since?

So much so, that a very good friend kindly bought me a book last week called "how to future proof your children", and its focus is about kids and technology. (NOTHING at all to do with church). So I read the introduction and there, on page 2, I see a reference to god (sic), and thats it - for me the book is meaningless now , I flicked through the book and I cant take any of it seriously.




Fast forward 3 years to when Runic Wolf and I moved back to our home town when he left the Army and whoa! Our beloved pastor had retired, the new guy who had taken over was of the mega church mindset, tithe was the focus of 3 months worth of sermons. Only officially recognized members could know where the money was being spent and Runic Wolf was not considered a member all of the sudden, so they wanted him to attend "membership classes". When I went to the membership meeting, there were all the people I grew up with and respected trying to defend our church to this guy who had brought in his experts and who said that we'd dropped the ball.... that it didn't matter how many people came to know Christ because of the way we used to do things, because they weren't recorded and now attending our church, we needed to do things his way. It was very disheartening and we stopped attending almost immediately. Our pastor returned for the 25th Anniversary of the church and we returned for that event, but that was it.

Well, well, I think just maybe you're on the path I was on 6 or 7 years ago. I began to realise that the community work is a front for the pastor creaming a lavish lifestyle out of the congregation.

I'm predicting that you'll be looking at every church now with skepticism, and you will come round more and more to a decision that they all sprout superstitious lies , for their own gain.

[bassman]

About a month ago, I had a chat with one of her fellowship group members. Ive been a bit distant with my wife ever since, because it brought up that huge mistrust I feel for them.

it doesnt help that she had bad pms the week after and was really grumpy to me and our boy.

Our festive season has not been all that festive:confused:

Anyway, I soldier on !

Tomorrow is a typical Sunday, I'll go out in ly lil boat in the morning, and she'll be off to church in the aft.

I think it was about this time, that the nookie came to a halt. I think I was hit sideways a bit by this guy reminding me whats in my wife's brain. Religious dogma, I'm afraid, is NOT sexy.

Although she tried to initiate sex a few weeks ago, I told her I felt too "battered and bruised". Last night she finally asked me what I had meant when I said that, a few weeks ago, and I told her it was a combination of her treatment of me around that time (shes admitted she was a grouch), and more so, my chat with her church friend. The subject didnt get pursued much beyond that last night. So maybe we're stuck again.

[bassman]

On a another side note, she's very friendly with a girl from New Zealand, T, who is also into the evangelical stuff.

Now, this girl has had several boyfriends in the past few years, and she tells my wife a lot about what goes on.

The other my my wife, M, says:

"T says I'm her only friend that she can tell about her sleeping with the boyfriend"

Me:"thats because all Ts friends are from church, and that makes them judgemental and disapproving of the sex"

Wife "ermm, yes, actually, that IS true"

So, a small victory for me, at least my wife is not , I hope, AS judgemental about sex outside marriage as she used to be.

[bassman]

Wife was dressed uber-sexy yesterday (to go to church, unfortunately, lol), long slinky dress with boots.

I asked her " are those FMBs? (f*ck me boots), and she said "yes", and I said "wow, thats a FMD, then, (f*ck me dress).

After she left home, I sent some suggestive remarks to her phone, which were met with a stunning silence.

Ive noticed a pattern where church days are not nookie days. I guess my suspicion was confirmed yesterday, then, that her going to church does not make for a sexy afternoon/eve. She's probably not turned on by the idea that my views on it are pretty much directly opposed to what she hears on a Sunday. And of course, Ive been away for 3 weeks, so that means she been going for 4 weeks. So their opinion is probably stronger in her mind than mine at the mo.

The whole church thing, I fear, may turn out to be a deal-breaker for me. I'm not sure how long I can put up with it :(

[BrigidsDaughter]

The whole church thing, I fear, may turn out to be a deal-breaker for me. I'm not sure how long I can put up with it :(

I think this may be true, but it has more to do with your inability to accept her for who she is and what she believes than the fact that she attends church. Just because you decided God wasn't for you, doesn't mean that you should ever expect her to come to the same conclusion. IMO, you sound as bad about "conversion" as her church. Faith or the lack thereof, is a very personal thing and each person's journey is different. Your inability to ahve sex with her because she attends church, to me, is very telling about the outcome of your situation should -you- continue on the way you are.

[BrigidsDaughter]

See, now, this is the kind of thing I thought we were going to get into. When we were married 12 years ago, I had imagined, in my mind, a place with a sort of a community feeling about it, and I could fully get involved in something like that, as a volunteer, but not a believer. Such a place never materialised, and when I look back now, we flitted from church to church. I remember us one time, having a meeting with someone from a church, as a preliminary to attending a serious of evenings , like a 101 (or alpha course). And this guy dropped a few "You should be doing this", and "you should be doing that", and it got my back up immediately, and we never did do the course. When I think back now, that was probably one of the first small red flags that went up for me, and Ive never forgotten that meeting. Perhaps that small red flag told me to watch out for more red flags, and the flags have been getting bigger and bigger ever since?

So much so, that a very good friend kindly bought me a book last week called "how to future proof your children", and its focus is about kids and technology. (NOTHING at all to do with church). So I read the introduction and there, on page 2, I see a reference to god (sic), and thats it - for me the book is meaningless now , I flicked through the book and I cant take any of it seriously.




Well, well, I think just maybe you're on the path I was on 6 or 7 years ago. I began to realise that the community work is a front for the pastor creaming a lavish lifestyle out of the congregation.

I'm predicting that you'll be looking at every church now with skepticism, and you will come round more and more to a decision that they all sprout superstitious lies , for their own gain.

Nope, sorry. There is nothing that you can say that will dissuede me from my belief in God. There is a BIG difference between faith in God and faith in the church. The modern mega church has very little to do with God and slapping his name on it isn't doing him any favors.

You sound like a very close minded man if one reference to God would make you completely devalue a book. Do you devalue American money because it says "In God we trust"?

[bassman]

I think this may be true, but it has more to do with your inability to accept her for who she is and what she believes than the fact that she attends church. Just because you decided God wasn't for you, doesn't mean that you should ever expect her to come to the same conclusion. IMO, you sound as bad about "conversion" as her church. Faith or the lack thereof, is a very personal thing and each person's journey is different. Your inability to ahve sex with her because she attends church, to me, is very telling about the outcome of your situation should -you- continue on the way you are.

...what hurts is not her belief in god, but that she'll just take what the pastor and congregation say as "right", and not consider me or my boy in any equation, the tithe being a good example. So when it comes to relationship advice or anything at all, they win. And if I disagree, I lose. Its that simple. I see them as the enemy, and a destructive force in my relationship ( and many many other aspects)

[bassman]

Nope, sorry. There is nothing that you can say that will dissuede me from my belief in God.


This is exactly what I'm up against at home, and "nothing you can say" rings true to me. So, I'm sure you'll agree theres no point in discussing it with her, is there? :(



You sound like a very close minded man if one reference to God would make you completely devalue a book. Do you devalue American money because it says "In God we trust"?

I'd hope its face value will be worth what it says, and I could buy a hot dog with it. But if I turned it over and it had some advice on the back on how to run my life, I'd treat that advice with the same scepticism as the bible, the koran, or astrology, or the myth of Zeus. :)

[Quath]

This is exactly what I'm up against at home, and "nothing you can say" rings true to me. So, I'm sure you'll agree theres no point in discussing it with her, is there? :(
Unfortunately, that may be the case. If I ask the question, "Is there any evidence that would cause you to doubt your beliefs," then most of the time I get a "no" answer. At that point, they have admitted that dogma outweighs logic or reason. All you can do is try to reduce the dogma by showing internal problems. But even that may not work.

[BrigidsDaughter]

actually, dogma has nothing to do with my beliefs. I have actually had personal and profound spiritual experiences that have solidified my belief in God. Perhaps your wife has as well?

[bassman]

actually, dogma has nothing to do with my beliefs. I have actually had personal and profound spiritual experiences that have solidified my belief in God. Perhaps your wife has as well?

Ok, well Ive not asked, but I dont think she has.

I dont mind the belief in whatever spritual whats-it, what I cant understand is how the pastor and congregation have her wrapped around their little finger, and what might be best for me, our little boy, and our future is the least of their concern. But what they say is "just right", and it seems to me she just follows them and wants to impress them, so their advice comes first. My opinion, desires, are "secondary" . I am beginning to understand what the secondary card means, now, I'm sure I could come up with a similar card for being a secondary in a marriage, church being the primary, lol!

[bassman]

Unfortunately, that may be the case. If I ask the question, "Is there any evidence that would cause you to doubt your beliefs," then most of the time I get a "no" answer. At that point, they have admitted that dogma outweighs logic or reason. All you can do is try to reduce the dogma by showing internal problems. But even that may not work.

Yep, and to quote Dawkins: "you cant argue with a mind like that" - (he means "argue" in the sense of having a discussion, not a confrontation).

[bassman]

oh feck, it gets worse.
I'm informed this morning that she's attending "home group leader training" tonight. I can just imagine the bullshit they will be spewing.

Plus, the "Home group", (aka the enemy), are coming round tomorrow night. I think I'll just disappear upstairs for the night.

[NovemberRain]

Sorry, but I find that just not great discussion skill. WHY on earth would anyone tell you that they'd doubt their beliefs?

I do a lot belief work (my teacher is a guy who invented a process for people to see that their beliefs are only one truth and not necessarily THE truth). Even people who go to an expert, and pay lots of money for the privilege, don't want to doubt their beliefs. 'But it's a fact,' they cry. It's worse when they 'know' it's not a fact. And yet they can still un-believe. That's why he's my teacher. It's some of the best magick I've ever uncovered.

Anyway, I talk to people a lot about beliefs. My dad is a serious skeptic, and extra so when I bring it home. But I share my process with him, and he's witnessed me unbelieving some things the last few years. One thing he said to me was 'beliefs are the things that don't change, when everything else does.' So, he's got a belief that you can't really unbelieve things. (which is a belief that can be worked through, lotsa folks have it.

Anyhow, I've strayed a bit. You cannot approach a debate, or a discussion, by saying, 'how can I make you see you're wrong?' (which is a translation of 'is there any evidence that could make you doubt your beliefs?') If I'm approached with that, I'm likely to hear that you already think I'm wrong and you want to take away something that I not only see as valuable, but a very foundation of my very existence. Why would I offer you an opening to take that away?

Now, you show some appreciation for WHO I AM (which i think is my beliefs), and some care for how I live my life, then I am more likely to engage in conversation with you at all. Then I'm more likely to consider questions you ask me. Small questions. How about 'tell me about how going to church makes you feel, sweetie'? Which isn't really a question so much as an opening to a dialogue.

[nycindie]

Bassman, it seems like you and your wife don't communicate very well with each other. There are questions left unasked, desires unspoken, needs unexpressed, and no boundaries set about your living space and finances. Such timidity on your part! I think you need to take charge of your life more, and make your marriage more of a partnership where you both work on goals together. Either that, or why do you stay?

[bassman]

Bassman, it seems like you and your wife don't communicate very well with each other. There are questions left unasked, desires unspoken, needs unexpressed, and no boundaries set about your living space and finances. Such timidity on your part! I think you need to take charge of your life more, and make your marriage more of a partnership where you both work on goals together. Either that, or why do you stay?



Thanks for this, nycindie - your words are ringing in my head over and over, and I know you are right.

She is going through some stress at work, trying to get a higher level job, so I dont want to add to her stress right now.

Mostly, I'm thinking of my son, who is only 7 now, he is the glue that holds us together at the moment. He is the light of my life, and I cant bear the thought of not seeing him every day.

Even worse, if we split and get alternate weekends for access, he'll land up going to that f*cking church every 2nd sunday :mad:

So I feel very very trapped:confused:

[SNeacail]

NR and NYC are right and they offer some really good advice. STOP attacking your wife and her beliefs, it will only make her defend it more. They are what they are, even if you don't agree. However, DO have the discussion how to make the whole relationship more of a partnership. Come up with a list of goals and discuss what it will take to get there. When the both of you can work as partners, and both feel valued as an equal partner, there is less of a desire to fight back.

As far as your finances go, come up with a list of NON-negotiable items like; housing, utilities, groceries, tuition, certain family necessities, savings toward goals, etc. You each should have a budget for your own personal necessities and extras (shoes, clothes, personal care products, etc.). If she decides she would rather give money to the church instead of going to lunch with her girlfriends or buying the new pair of shoes, that's her choice and it doesn't impact your agreed upon goals. Give her the freedom to follow her heart without sabotaging your partnership.

[BrigidsDaughter]

I was discussing this thread with Wendigo last night and he suggested that by being so hostile towards her church and, in a sense, her beliefs, by trying to talk her out of them. You are actually having the opposite effect and pushing her towards them, perhaps because she feels like they are the only ones who truly accept her.

[bassman]

I was discussing this thread with Wendigo last night and he suggested that by being so hostile towards her church and, in a sense, her beliefs, by trying to talk her out of them. You are actually having the opposite effect and pushing her towards them, perhaps because she feels like they are the only ones who truly accept her.

mmm, I'm not sure what you'd call bluffing someone out of 10's of 1000s of $$s? That seems pretty hostile to me?

[BrigidsDaughter]

I'm not saying that swindling people out of money is right. I don't believe that at all. I'm not sure if I'd call it hostile though. I don't know if the members of her church are "true believers" or just misguided. But you do sound like you're very hostile towards their organization.

I guess I'm just cautioning you to be very careful not to push her even further into the church's waiting arms.

[bassman]

Ok, well we dont even talk about what happens at her meetings, or what they are teaching her, but when my opinion is asked for, I try and be polite and civil, and state my case in an assertive way.

I was thinking that her seeing these people 3 times in one week is a bit much. But, to be fair, Ive been away 3 weeks, - 1 week for work, 2 weeks personal. So I guess she feels she hasnt been out for 3 weeks out all, so I dont begrudge her going out last night.

[jasminegld]

This is exactly what I'm up against at home, and "nothing you can say" rings true to me. So, I'm sure you'll agree theres no point in discussing it with her, is there? :(

I don't agree. I do, however, think you have to approach the discussion a different way.

You and your wife are speaking different religious languages. One of you has to learn the other's language.

Please understand: Learning to speak Christian has nothing to do with accepting dogma. It means figuring out how speak in terms of myth and story. People do this all the time, using all sorts of literature. We make casual references to Mr. Spock or Gilligan or Beaver Cleaver to refer to a larger concept in shorthand. So learn to do the same using Christian language.

For example, there's a Biblical passage about removing the board from your own eye before complaining about the mote in your neighbor's eye -- this is about projection. There's a passage in which Peter asks Jesus what will become of the "Beloved Disciple" -- this is about minding boundaries.

I recommend a book to you:
Remedial Christianity: What Every Believer Should Know about the Faith, but Probably Doesn't
by Paul Lana Laughlin
Polebridge Press -- the Jesus Seminar folks

Now I understand that you think the book has nothing to offer you in terms of your own religious needs or lack thereof.

But that's NOT the point.

The book might have something to offer your wife. If you read and learn the book, you might develop an ability to talk with her in a way that allows her to explore /examine her own faith more deeply.

Then the two of you just might find a way to communicate with each other on this challenging issue.

Jasmine

[Quath]

Sorry, but I find that just not great discussion skill. WHY on earth would anyone tell you that they'd doubt their beliefs?
The idea is based on whether someone is being dogmatic or being skeptical. You can not outargue dogma. If someone says nothing will change their mind, you are dealing with dogma. If someone says something like "If XXX happened or if YYY happened, then I may change my belief" you may be dealing with someone who is open minded enough to evaluate their own belief.

For example, I can say that if God wrote his name in the stars I would believe he is real. That is not the only way, but it shows I am open to evidence to show God is real.

I talk to a lot of people who admit doubt of their beliefs. (I am a scientist and work around other scientists, so it may have more to do with scientific training.) While about 70% of the scientists I know are atheists (or nonbelievers) there is 30% who are religious. However, they are very light on the dogma. For example, several have said that all religions are pathways to heaven even though they identify as Christian.

[BrigidsDaughter]

The idea is based on whether someone is being dogmatic or being skeptical. You can not outargue dogma. If someone says nothing will change their mind, you are dealing with dogma. If someone says something like "If XXX happened or if YYY happened, then I may change my belief" you may be dealing with someone who is open minded enough to evaluate their own belief.



That is not always true, if someone has already passed the point where XXX happened and they changed their beliefs to believe in God. Than why would they change their mind? Dogma is a powerful tool, but sometimes people have real experiences that change their belief and you can't argue against those either; because they are personal.

I believe that God is real, but I also believe in spirits/ ghosts; after living in a haunted house for 2 years you'd be hard pressed to convince me they aren't. But that is my point, OP is taking a stance that because he stopped believing, his wife should too. Because her churches dogma threatens him in XYZ ways, it sounds like he feels like she chooses them over him when to her it might not be that simple.

[bassman]

Because her churches dogma threatens him in XYZ ways, it sounds like he feels like she chooses them over him when to her it might not be that simple.

Summed up correctly.

[bassman]

For now, we avoid the topic. My way of reducing the tension between us to just talk about everything else. Having been away for 3 weeks, theres lots to talk about, and it relieves any tension I thought there was.

For now, I'm not interested in reading any christian book, the same as she told me on the weekend she would not read any Richard Dawkins book. So there we are.

Yesterday we had lunch with a muslim who was bemoaning the fact the fiance would not do xyz during their engagement period.

So I used the opportunity to say that 2 adults dont have to follow tradition/culture. If the 2 adults agree to do something different, as long as they agree, then surely thats fine?

To my surprise, he and my wife agreed with me! A small result for me, but a slightly encouraging one.

[bassman]

All,
A very dear friend, who has become very important to me in the space of just two weeks,

has read this thread, and has, metaphorically speaking, given me a fat smack on the head !!! :D:D:D

But, not for what I believe/dont believe, but for trying to live like this and do nothing about the issue at hand ! They correctly, with love in their voice, told me that I am avoiding confrontation, and they are correct.

Had a chat with the wife, and her and I have agreed to therapy (in spite of my bad experience last time) - I go alone first, and perhaps she'll join me later.

:)

I feel so much better now that I have a plan, rather than doing nothing except be frustrated by the whole thing.

[nycindie]

Good for you. BTW, I told you that a month ago.

Such timidity on your part! I think you need to take charge of your life more, and make your marriage more of a partnership where you both work on goals together. Either that, or why do you stay?

<second smack!>
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-taunt006.gif
http://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_therethere.gif

[bassman]

Good for you. BTW, I told you that a month ago.



<second smack!>
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-taunt006.gif
http://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_therethere.gif

lol, thanks for the 2nd smack! (was it with love?):o

[nycindie]

lol, thanks for the 2nd smack! (was it with love?):o
Of course! That's what the "there, there" smiley is for. After I smack you with a fish, I rub your head and give you a kiss.

[Magdlyn]

I've been thinking, bassman, that your wife putting her spirituality seemingly ahead of her love for you and your importance in her life, as well as ahead of family goals, is not all that unusual or even detrimental. As you can see in the "Spiritual Sex" thread, that poster's spirituality is also perhaps more important to him than those of his wife.

As I see it, it's your wife's "sheepleness" that is the problem. Just swallowing whatever is preached to her from the pulpit each Sunday, instead of examining her faith for herself and how it fits into her marriage and family, on a moral and practical level, that hurts you a lot.

And then, you're so focused on her getting a lover... which doesnt seem at all important to her.

[nycindie]

I agree with Mags. I also recall some good advice you got from SNeacail back in January:

STOP attacking your wife and her beliefs, it will only make her defend it more. They are what they are, even if you don't agree. However, DO have the discussion how to make the whole relationship more of a partnership. Come up with a list of goals and discuss what it will take to get there. When the both of you can work as partners, and both feel valued as an equal partner, there is less of a desire to fight back.

As far as your finances go, come up with a list of NON-negotiable items like; housing, utilities, groceries, tuition, certain family necessities, savings toward goals, etc. You each should have a budget for your own personal necessities and extras (shoes, clothes, personal care products, etc.). If she decides she would rather give money to the church instead of going to lunch with her girlfriends or buying the new pair of shoes, that's her choice and it doesn't impact your agreed upon goals. Give her the freedom to follow her heart without sabotaging your partnership.

[bassman]

I agree with Mags. I also recall some good advice you got from SNeacail back in January:



Yes, Ive come round to that advice, too.

[bassman]

Was awake most of the night thinking about this, and we had a chat about it this morning.

I'll put it all on here later.

We both feel good just talking about it, :) even though we're at opposite end of the spectrum.

[feelyunicorn]

Cool to see a fellow atheist in the forum. :)

[bassman]

Was awake most of the night thinking about this, and we had a chat about it this morning.

I'll put it all on here later.

We both feel good just talking about it, :) even though we're at opposite end of the spectrum.

Explained that I have no beef with faith in the existence of whatever. But I take issue with my life being affected by doctrine/religion. She explained that she is at a point where she doesnt condemn a lot of what she used, like for example, I asked her if same sex couples should be allowed to adopt, and she said yes! ( The church website condemns same sex anything, but I am checking that out - *edit* I checked it out, and theyve changed their minds now, gays are ok SUDDENLY). And then she went on to say that those people can choose same sex if they want, "but its not the choice I would make". But then she said that her choices are made with the scripture in mind.

I was happy to leave it there for now, at least there is progress, and I have something to work with.


Then, before we went out last night to a party, she pulls out this wig, that she says she "earned" on a trip to New Orleans, back in 98. She said she was walking down the street, and commented on somebody's wig. They offered it to her if she flashed her boobs, without the bra, and she says she did !!

I was excited now, you know, there was a glimpse of the fun girl she used to be!

and THAT is the girl I thought I married - yes, she went to church those days, but it was mild, you know, she didnt see the literature as seriously as she does now. So we were out at this party, and we had a good time, but at one point it struck me that who she was then, is not the same as who she is now..... my default thought is to blame the church of course, but , of course its her thats changed, its her thats made the choices, including sending the money, its her that chooses to keep going there to get the message more ingrained.

Unfortunately, this spilled over into anger within me, (I guess its a jealous kind of feeling, that her book is more important than my thinking, or even the welfare of my son - this hurts me more, of course. Indeed, she still wants to send money, but is not, at my request, so I feel i'm holding her back now, actually).

So I had an outburst that attacked her personally last night - and I need to apologise now. I just cant get my feelings of insecurity out without this anger, which why I want therapy - to help me overcome that.


Footnote: This story seems one-sided, so in her favour, I want to let you know that I also made a financial f*ck up, namely, invested in a business that failed, and I had an expensive car, too, when I , of course, shouldnt have.

[bassman]

Things have been going well between us. I see signs of progress everywhere. A year ago, we had a discussion about sex before marriage, and the judgemental comments flowed from her
"Those people shouldnt be doing that"
"thats wrong"
"Those people are damaging themselves"
"those people are selfish"

It was quite refreshing to hear her say this week, that " If sex-workers want to be sex-wokers, then thats fine. But if poeple are being forced to do that, like locked into a room and hardly see the light of day, then that is wrong"

So, she's actually, to her credit, come along quite a bit. When I raised the topic of non-monogamy a year ago, she applied all the above judgemental comment to it, and also added "those people are infidels"

However, lately, her view seems to be that "If those people are choosing to do that, thats fine for them. It wouldnt be my choice, though"

So I see it as progress, at least the judgemental "everyone should live by my rules" stance has been replaced with a more liberal view.

I ve heard a lot of things from her lately that have given me encouragement. I see progress.

[karatekid7412589]

Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin

Disassociate yourself with churches please!! and if you believe then do your own research and pray if you want to within your own home and family.

THE (non-existant) Almighty GOD doesn't need money to run his imaginary heaven or divine plan