Jealousy, Envy, Insecurity, etc. General Discussion [Archive]

XYZ123

08-29-2009, 06:34 PM

I'm not usually mean-spirited. But, honestly, if they're jealous or envious, let them go out and find their own (person, place, thing) that makes THEM happy. I'm not saying I'm never envious or jealous, it's human nature. But I get over it pretty quickly and DO something about these feelings. In other words, I find my own happiness. And I make a decision to be happy for those I care about, even if I do wish I had what they have. You keep being happy. Let them waste their own lives envying you. But remind them that they can work towards happiness as well and be willingto show them how. You are only responsible for the happiness of yourself and for doing what you can to bring about the happiness of those you love and who love you and work towards your happiness in return. It took me years (and alot of going without to make other people happy) to learn this. And I still forget sometimes.

I wish I had the support and the extended chosen family you do. I wish I had the happiness and fulfillment you do. However, I'm not envious as there is no negativity attached to my wishes. Rather, your story provides me with hope and I am happy for you. So thank you for sharing it and please continue to be as happy as you are!

(Hehe. I'm grumpy today. Can you tell?)

Ceoli

08-29-2009, 06:35 PM

"
Some people in my life lately are possibly envious or even jealous when it comes to my relationships. I say possibly because they might just be figuring it all out for themselves and taking the time to do so. I know I should just chalk it up to their problem and not mine, but I hurt from it. I don't want them to think I am gone from their lives for good and I don't want to feel I have to down play my happiness either. It is far easier to deal with my partners feelings around jealousy and envy than it is with the outside world...

I'd love to know how to deal with the outside world on this one...????

Well, one thing I would ask is what exactly about their envy is hurtful to you? What's the connection it makes for you?

Other than that, I think there is sometimes merit to listening to other people's reactions. I know that for myself, I'm not where I want to be in my love life and while there are some good points to it, my love life has had a very painful and lonely history that makes it sorely lacking in a way that creates a tangible ache (but the beauty of being human is learning to move past the pain and being open to more love). Now, I have friends who are overflowing with happiness in their love lives, and while I am happy for them, I can't deny the envy either. But that envy doesn't hurt our relationships because they respect where I am on my journey. They respect the loss and sadness I have and *make space for it*. Just as I work to make space for their happiness. (I know that in situations of great happiness, it's easy to be a bit more oblivious to the effect it may have on people around me) They don't treat my sadness as an attack on their happiness and that allows me to be genuinely happy for them despite my sadness. And it's very enriching because we all have things to learn from everyone else's experiences and we can do that when each experience is honored. I have had other friends where we haven't been able to maintain relationships because their overflowing happiness leaves little room for anything else and doesn't tolerate the fact that this is where I'm struggling. They don't leave the space for me to have my own feelings. They don't honor my struggle in their happiness, which makes it more difficult for me to honor their happiness in my struggle.

In contrast, I'm aware of other parts of my life where I have achieved great success and have been envied by others. One thing I do in areas where I feel successful is that I try to be keenly aware of how much space that success takes up in my relationships. I remember that while I have worked very hard for my success, there is also a great deal of luck and serendipity that helped me to be where I'm at. I find it important to remember that when other people express envy for my situation. So I won't hide my happiness in those areas, but I will approach it with a bit of humility and respect for people who may not have had the fortunate situations that I've had.

redpepper

08-29-2009, 06:39 PM

What if, instead of your happiness (which is not a tangible thing), these people were jealous or envious of your great body, which you spend X number of hours in the gym and deprive yourself of yummy snacks to maintain?

I'm not saying that is the case (although your body looks just fine to me), but it IS a tangible thing, and would it be any different to you if they were jealous of that?

How is that a tangible thing? It is very similar in fact (although I don't spend time in the gym and indeed eat treats... :)) what does one do with that even? It's like I come barreling into a room all happy and smiley, ready to chat and get to know people, eager to tell my story and share experiences, learn from others and love them for who they are and I am faced with them looking me over, taking note of my situation and then get the eye roll and the cold shoulder. As I said, I don't know if this is envy or not. Perhaps I am just distasteful to others period. I don't think so, because I have generally been very well liked and well regarded. It's just since I have made Mono and my poly life public that I have faced this. I am not used to it and it makes me feel sad and hurt.

If XYZ123 is reading, I fear it is what you and I discussed about my having my cake and eating it too. How having two men is frowned upon for women, but not for men with two women.

XYZ123

08-29-2009, 06:42 PM

Stick out your tongue, put your fingers in your ears, wave your hands and go ppppllltthhhh :p (You can learn the best responses to cold shoulders and mean responses from a 5 year old.)

I'd hang with you anytime.

NeonKaos

08-29-2009, 06:44 PM

Someone's appearance is tangible because you can point to it, touch it, or take a picture of it.

Someone's state of mind (or happiness, in your case) is intangible because you can't pick it up or capture it on media or make a copy for yourself.

I'm not trying to draw a conclusion based on this difference. I was just asking if it would make any difference if folks were jealous or envious of something you had that they could see or touch than if they were j/e of something that could not be put in a box so easily.

Either of these things takes a lot of work. So is it the thing itself they are j/e of, or the fact that you make it look so easy?

I guess that's what I was going for.

XYZ123

08-29-2009, 06:45 PM

Oh-And if that fails, turn around, bend over, and wiggle your butt at them. My son almost always gets a laugh out of an eye roll with that trick!

NeonKaos

08-29-2009, 06:56 PM

What I was trying to say before when I said I didn't want to reveal certain things about myself yet, what that basically was was that I don't really like people all that much and I just wish they would mind their own business and stay out of mine.

I have said that before, but I was in a bullshitty mood this morning because of something I read on Fakebook (which is also my problem and not the person who posted it's problem.

There is no real insight to be had from my comment regarding the OP. But, it does color my attitude when responding to stories about how other people react to something. This board is supposed to be about support, understanding, and acceptance, and I am afraid of crossing the line into cynicism and negativity and making enemies or getting kicked off, but on the other hand, I'm not really afraid of that and it wouldn't surprise me at all. Except I haven't pissed anyone off so far.

Sorry about the detour. I return you to the scheduled programming.

Sunshinegrl

08-30-2009, 03:15 AM

I'm not usually mean-spirited. But, honestly, if they're jealous or envious, let them go out and find their own (person, place, thing) that makes THEM happy. I'm not saying I'm never envious or jealous, it's human nature. But I get over it pretty quickly and DO something about these feelings. In other words, I find my own happiness. And I make a decision to be happy for those I care about, even if I do wish I had what they have. You keep being happy. Let them waste their own lives envying you. But remind them that they can work towards happiness as well and be willingto show them how. You are only responsible for the happiness of yourself and for doing what you can to bring about the happiness of those you love and who love you and work towards your happiness in return. It took me years (and alot of going without to make other people happy) to learn this. And I still forget sometimes.

This.

Im sure that Many people do get envious of things I have, Im envious of those of my friends who have things that I dont. I dont let it control me or my life. I usually find ways to make it happen for me If i want it so much. I believe sometimes Envy or Jealousy can be a positive thing too. I know with My BFF Her Envy of My weight loss has Spurred her to do something about her own weight issue. So I dont think that Envy is only a negative thing. Now If the Envy or jealousy is Causing this person to be a bad/negative friend Then I would probably think about talking to them about it.

redpepper

08-31-2009, 06:07 AM

wow, what a hugely long response.... sorry, I'm just too tired to read it all right now. I will tomorrow.... please don't think I haven't noticed or haven't cared....

thanks for the responses.

Ceoli

09-03-2009, 10:52 AM

I had another thought on this. If envy or jealousy arises in a romantic partnership, generally I'll work on that very hard with the partner. I'll also work on it with the respect for the love and care we've built together. I think most people would approach it in a similar way.

I hold my friendships in life to be just as important as my romantic partnerships. So why would I treat a jealousy or envy issue with my friend any differently than I would treat it with my partner?

Karelia

09-03-2009, 01:47 PM

I have encountered this to some degree, I guess. I've had some people who have struggled with find one person worth loving make comments about my having two people to love who love me back.

I haven't let it get to me, though. I am far from perfect, but I've worked really hard to get to a place where I was mentally ready and healthy enough to be in a relationship. Just before I met my husband, I'd reached a point of realizing that settling was far worse than being alone - and I'd decided there would be no more settling for me. He and I had a rough first year, but we worked through it, and were all the stronger for that work.

I have definitely had female friends who were incredibly envious of my relationship with him. He's an amazing guy... also not perfect, but closer than most ;). He makes me laugh when I want to cry, he's been my partner through a lot of loss and trouble, and without him life could never be as sweet. So, I guess what I'm saying is, I get the envy.

We added our girlfriend to this, and well... most people just don't get it. Generally speaking, the reactions have been, well, if you're happy, I guess that's good. Which is probably the most positive reaction I could expect from most people. I guess "coming out" made me realize that I had some really good friends, because I was worried more of them might decide to distance themselves or walk away because of our GF.

So, when I see someone who is envious, it just reminds me of how much I have. While I often say that I am fortunate, I also know that I've worked really hard to maintain my relationships. The one with my husband hasn't needed much "work" since that first year, but *I* had work to do even after I met him to feel worthy of love, worthy of a healthy relationship. Now, we're all working to try to make the triad something that can grow and develop into the sort of rare bond that my husband and I shared before her (and still do separately from what we share with her, if that makes sense).

I guess my point is, happiness is not something we're just given. We work to be happy. It's foolish to think it can just fall into your lap, no matter how easily love comes to you. It's also foolish to think that you can love and be happy when you don't give it 100% of who you are. So, in regards to outside envy, I just see it as, well... I've worked hard to have what I do, and I'm very fortunate that I was able to see things I needed to do in order to be healthy enough to find this sort of love, and I'm very thankful that I have a partner (now two) that loves me enough to be there for me while I continue to grow as a person, and as a partner.

Ceoli

09-03-2009, 02:34 PM

NeonKaos

09-03-2009, 02:45 PM

I think it's important to remember that experiencing envy isn't the same as being disappointed that happiness hasn't fallen into their lap. Being envious doesn't mean that they're not aware of all of the hard work that goes into creating happiness. A person can feel envy and still appreciate all of that. I guess I wonder why people feel the need to isolate themselves from envy or why they consider it a hurtful thing to be around.

I think of envy as a non-zero-sum concept, and jealousy as a zero-sum-concept (even if these are not in the dictionary definitions).

Envy means someone else has something that you wish you had for yourself also, while jealousy means you wish that the other person did not have it if you can't have it too.

If you're married or whatever, and your partner has a boyfriend or girlfriend, you could say "I envy that" meaning that you want a BF or GF too but don't want them to give up what they have.

If you said "I'm jealous of that" it is like as if it's a competition and in order to "feel equal" someone would have to give up something the other person doesn't also have.

vandalin

09-03-2009, 08:16 PM

Ygirl: I like how you put the differences between jealousy & envy. This is something that has come up recently in regards to Elric and myself. He has mentioned a couple gals on FB often enough for me to feel something but I wasn't sure quite what. Using your definitions I can deduce that what I feel is envy, I am envious of the other gals because I wish I could have the attention he is giving them for myself. Thanks!

It seems that envy is an okay part of compersion while jealousy is something we would not want in compersion so must work through and get rid of. Yes?

NeonKaos

09-03-2009, 08:19 PM

It seems that envy is an okay part of compersion while jealousy is something we would not want in compersion so must work through and get rid of. Yes?

I thought of that too.

Karelia

09-04-2009, 12:01 AM

YGirl, I like your definition. :)

I don't have a problem with envy. Jealousy can be destructive, but envy usually isn't, and if it is, it hurts the person feeling that way, and not me (unless I'm the one feeling the envy, haha).

Ceoli

09-04-2009, 12:06 AM

YGirl, that is exactly my definition of jealousy versus envy. But if I find myself starting to feel defensive to someone's envy, then the problem is mine, not theirs.

Jealousy is definitely a destructive force to all parties in a relationship. When I have jealous friends, I work just as hard to address it as I would with a jealous partner. If it can't be resolved in either case, then there is something very broken.

NeonKaos

09-04-2009, 12:09 AM

Ygirl: I like how you put the differences between jealousy & envy.

YGirl, I like your definition. :)

YGirl, that is exactly my definition of jealousy versus envy.

YGirl Defines the Differences

Episode II: Sympathy vs. Empathy

Coming Soon to a Forum Near You

River

09-04-2009, 12:16 AM

lol!

vandalin

09-04-2009, 01:37 AM

YGirl Defines the Differences

Episode II: Sympathy vs. Empathy

Coming Soon to a Forum Near You

I thought I already covered that one...http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5213&postcount=8 with the following post being a confirmation. :p I suppose we can co-author that one. ;)

redpepper

09-04-2009, 04:56 AM

I have had other friends where we haven't been able to maintain relationships because their overflowing happiness leaves little room for anything else and doesn't tolerate the fact that this is where I'm struggling. They don't leave the space for me to have my own feelings. They don't honor my struggle in their happiness, which makes it more difficult for me to honor their happiness in my struggle.

So I won't hide my happiness in those areas, but I will approach it with a bit of humility and respect for people who may not have had the fortunate situations that I've had.

This was very helpful Ceoli! Thank you.

I think that perhaps some people in my life have made themselves distant out of fear that I won't be humble and respect that they have their own struggles and short comings where their happiness is concerned. I do my best to stay quiet and down play my joy actually. They would no that if they bothered to find out. We will see what happens in time. I am kinda demanding that people get their act together, stop whining and create their own happiness... I suppose that might be a bit grating?:o:confused:

I have a friend that is just as happy in her poly life as I right now and is so "in it." She doesn't always approach others with humility in it and kind of goes on about it all sometimes. It doesn't make people warm to her happiness, but instead makes them want to avoid her as she brings up their own unhappiness by proxy. I even have trouble listening to it as it makes me feel like, in her eyes, my happiness couldn't possibly be as good as hers or as valid.

She had a cranky day recently and was actually a bit cranky with being cranky in light of her AMAZING life. I kind of fell out of favour as I teased her about it..... really I was kind of rolling my eyes and thinking, "could you possibly be more self centered and self involved?!"

redpepper

09-04-2009, 04:58 AM

So is it the thing itself they are j/e of, or the fact that you make it look so easy?

I guess that's what I was going for.

I think cause I make it look easy.... on the outside it does look easy! But I can tell, you and so can Mono... it has been a lot of hard work!

redpepper

09-04-2009, 05:21 AM

redpepper

09-04-2009, 05:22 AM

YGirl Defines the Differences

Episode II: Sympathy vs. Empathy

Coming Soon to a Forum Near You

you are sooooo popular YGirl...! I'm envious! :D

NeonKaos

09-04-2009, 12:08 PM

I thought I already covered that one...http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5213&postcount=8 with the following post being a confirmation. :p I suppose we can co-author that one. ;)

You did cover it; so did a lot of other folks. But I haven't yet.

redpepper

10-01-2009, 07:28 AM

Jealousy indicates fear, self preservation, the preservation of a love relationship, loss of what once was, sadness over the loss of what once was, anger over a lovers seeming lack of love for you etc.... it is very powerful in that it is a mixture of many emotions in one.

Jealousy is not simple and is not dangerous. Sure to a lot of us it feels strange and new as we don't often get to feel it in life... but it is the newness that makes us feel like it's wrong. It makes us feel that we are misbehaving and that we should be shameful about our seeming lack of control over our emotions.

Jealousy can be harnessed to achieve great things in terms of knowing ourselves and how strong our relationships really are. It can also indicate that there is something wrong in the relationship or in the relationship of our lover and their other lover.

There is nothing wrong with it or bad about it. It is very human and shows that we too can be humbled by our less desirable emotions....

Ceoli

10-01-2009, 10:20 AM

Amen! It's not about whether or not we're jealous, it's about how we handle that jealousy. It's about whether or not we're willing to take a hard look at what that jealousy is telling us about ourselves or our relationship and communicate openly and honestly about those concerns. I've known a lot of people that spend a long time trying to transcend jealousy or claiming that they have transcended all jealousy. I think many times this is just a form of denial.

We should never have to apologize for what feelings we're experiencing. How we *handle* those feelings is what matters.

aussielover

10-01-2009, 10:59 AM

If we had a like button I'd click it.

Was beautifully put, both of you. Very insightful. I think everyone gets jealous at some point or another. Agreed it's the way you handle the emotion, not the emotion itself.

MonoVCPHG

10-01-2009, 03:24 PM

I've known a lot of people that spend a long time trying to transcend jealousy or claiming that they have transcended all jealousy. I think many times this is just a form of denial.

.

We have friends that absolutely refuse to use the word jealousy, but when the primary barged in on her and her secondary just as they were about to have sex, he said that he "had concerns."...such bullshit.

redsirenn

10-01-2009, 07:58 PM

Thanks Redpepper.
It's funny how sometimes things are so well timed. Your post is a great reminder to me.

LovingRadiance

10-01-2009, 08:25 PM

Question for you all:

So when you feel jealous-what do you do with/about it?

For example, if you feel jealous about your primary holding hands with their secondary-what do you do? Whose responsibility is this?

I have this ... conflict. Because in my opinion if a person feels jealous-it is their own emotion. I rarely feel jealous -rarely. But on the occassions do-I start by talking to MYSELF about it. Asking myself WHAT I am feeling that way about, WHY that bothers me, what about the behavior, action, look or whatever is threatening to me and in what way. I have never gotten to a point where I found that my jealousy was in ANY WAY caused by a legitimate reason that the other person was in any way responsible for.

Recently my secondary (I hate these terms, but it's easier to explain using them when dealing with people who don't know me) told me I wasn't his type. I was jealous and upset at first. But then I was like-ok so what? He's OBVIOUSLY attracted to me, OBVIOUSLY madly in love with me and OBVIOUSLY devoted not only to me but to my husband and children as well. So why does it matter to me that I am not his type? Well ultimately-it doesn't. In fact it's kind of an ego trip once I thought it through because that means I rated above all those women who ARE his type.

On the other hand, my primary gets jealous anytime he thinks about the possibility of me having sex with someone else, or kissing them, or holding hands or going on vacation (those are all specific examples he's listed) or going to dinner, or going to the movies........
And he see's it as "these actions cause my jealousy so they should not be done when I will have to deal with them".

SO-what do YOU all do with/for dealing with your jealousy and what is your take on it?

ourquad

10-01-2009, 10:12 PM

LovingRadiace,

I do much of what you mentioned when I feel jealous. Why do I feel this way? Is is solely within me? Is it something I am percieving or is the situation actually a problem? Is there something that has triggered an insecurity of mine (yes 98.9% of the time)? Is there something that my SO is doing differently that has triggered it? If so, is it something I can adapt to or does it conflict with my beliefs?

There have been times it is something I have totally misunderstood. Sometimes I have to ask myself where the heck I came up with that perception. Sometimes, I've had to ask for some help form my SO. It makes me feel X when you do Y.

Then there have been times I've discovered it is envy more than jealousy. Say that Gator and I have for years made time for a date once a week. Now that he has Kitten in his life, we aren't able to fit one in once a week but try for once evey two weeks. Ok, this works. But then say life just keeps getting in the way of those date of ours and we never seem to be able to have one. However, life doesn't hit the relationship he has with Kitten as hardly and doesn't interfere with their date nights. I'm not jealous that he is having them with her but I miss the ones we should be having and I envy the time she is getting with him. I have to talk with him and we both have to agree not to let that life interfer as much and for us to get the much needed bonding time as well. Here, I can be happy he is getting his time with Kitten but unhappy our time together has been delayed. It can come out hurt and irritable as jealousy would but that isn't what I am feeling. I had to analyze first and then go from there.

Sorry to ramble.

Vol

LovingRadiance

10-01-2009, 10:20 PM

Ourquad,
I certainly don't mind your "ramble". I'm planning to share this thread with hubby and I am interested in everyone's perceptions! The more we hear, the easier it is to see into ourselves!

redpepper

10-02-2009, 05:28 AM

Question for you all:

So when you feel jealous-what do you do with/about it?

For me it's usually because I don't think the person who is the object of my jealousy has spent enough time and energy getting to know me and respecting my place in my husbands life. I need to feel that their intentions are honorable and that my husband respects that I am first when he starts a new relationship. If the person makes an effort and I can see it then I am usually very giving of letting go of my husbands time with me.... even if they are obviously having a hard time talking to me and approaching me I am willing to take that as an effort. I am not always that easy to approach as I am very confident, intuitive and trust that in myself, clear to the point of being blunt about what I think, I am very passionate about my beliefs around certain topics and most of all very protective of my husbands heart... I have seen it damaged and will raise hell if necessary if anyone hurts him again.

I go with my gut a lot and sometimes I am jealous when I just don't think the person is good enough to be in our lives.... they have to be worth the effort and if I think they aren't then I rage if my husband thinks they are....

I do a lot of checking in with my body and where my feelings sit... for every emotion really, but for jealousy especially... I know myself well enough to know that if certain areas of my body are effected then it's for a certain reason...

Sometimes, just being rational is all it takes to realize what is going on.... for instance my co-worker went on her third trip over seas this year, not to mention all the little trips she's done... her husband works for an airline company and gets free stand-by tickets to anywhere they want to go. I have not been on holiday out of province, let alone off this island!!! in years.!!! I am fiercely jealous and dread her coming home with her stupid pictures of her stupid trip...:mad: grrrr..... I may be sick that day... just so you know. Don't tell my boss, k? :cool:

One last thing, there are several threads on this topic... look back or do a search cause they are gold!

LovingRadiance

10-02-2009, 06:06 AM

Thanks Redpepper!
I will do a search. :)
You guys are a wealth of info!!

Sunshinegrl

10-02-2009, 09:21 AM

I agree this post is very insightful. Jealousy is something that many people struggle with..Myself rather more frequently of late. And I believe working throught why I feel this way is the best way to deal with it. If I find myself feeling Jealous I try to identify why I am having these feelings and what I might be able to do to lessen Them or make them redundant. I think jealousy is a very normal feeling to have and that You can learn alot from it and that Communication is a very important part of dealing with it.

secondchance

10-02-2009, 12:43 PM

I think that jealousy is a natural emotion and most people in any relationship have to deal with it. For me, I realize that the jealousy is usually due to my own insecurities. I am VERY insecure even when it comes to friendships. But I also think that jealousy is something to be dealt with and overcome, rather than given in to. I have never been in a poly relationship yet and I'm not sure how I'll do this until I'm in the situation, but honesty is key here. All partners involved should be able to discuss it with their partners. Working through the jealousy on my own is also a big thing for me, but that will be different for everyone. I know that my jealousy issues are caused by me 99% of the time, so if a partner is legitamately making it worse... I am not sure how I would deal with it. Honesty has been a huge thing for me lately so ideally I would stick with that, but who knows for sure...

Funk2Lopez

10-09-2009, 11:15 AM

I love my husband. I love our girlfriend but I still get jealous of how much affection she shows him that I don't feel a part of.

Warning. I'm going to hijack this thread now and ramble a bit.

From day one she's felt a deep passion for him and claimed our passion would grow with time. It's been 10 months and I still feel like the third wheel some times to their passion. We all wanted a triad to begin with and sometimes it feels like that, but other times most definately does not feel that way to me. She doesn't live with us and couldn't even if we all wanted to, but we still talk about living closer to each other. She calls him our husband in private and public as well as saying we are a triad to people but all of what I hear is her love and passion for him. She says she loves me, but sometimes I just don't feel romantically loved by her, especially when she talks of when she first meet him and then me. We were to meet all at once, but due to circumstances, I had to drop him off at the meet up site, run an errand and pick them both up a half hour later. Some times I think we got off on the wrong foot but I can't seem to find my balance and keep stumbling. Fallen and hurt I lay there just wondering if she'll ever show me the passion I want to share with her but am scared to ask for. My irrational fears take hold and say "Don't push her, she may not ever feel that way or much for me. Don't wreck it for them. They love each other and it's not right to break them up over my irrational emotions that seem so self centered whenever I try to talk about them." He's told me I need to talk to her more about it all and I know I should but I'm still scared to aproach her about it. I have tried a couple of times and failed misserably. The words that came out of my mouth were not perfect and what she heard wasn't always what I had meant. Each time we manage to seem to resolve some of it a bit and stay together, but not the heart of the issue. I really love her and value her friendship but I want the romance too and I don't know how to initiate it with her. As she said, "it can't all be about the sex." But is romance and sex the same thing for her or what?

I don't want to loose her but sometimes I think a V is more of what we have. I suggested it already but was told a triad is what we have and want to have. If it was a V, then they could go on dates and I'll try to find a girlfriend for just me to be with while they are together. He's okay with me having a girlfriend but not a boyfriend. If I could have a boyfriend, I'd have one already. A girlfriend is way harder to find, for me anyways.

I bought three great books, Opening Up, Open, and The Ethical Slut, but I still haven't read any of them all the way through. I'm going to try to read them while on vacation and maybe they can help me figure things out.

NeonKaos

10-09-2009, 11:53 AM

He can have a girlfriend but you can't have a boyfriend; you would have a boyfriend if he would "let" you.

That does not sound fair.

I'm glad I'm not you.

XYZ123

10-09-2009, 01:43 PM

He can have a girlfriend but you can't have a boyfriend; you would have a boyfriend if he would "let" you.

That does not sound fair.

I'm glad I'm not you.

It's funny how many men are fine with poly-so long as it's a "one dick fantasy". :o
My husband is the same way. I can have a girlfriend. We can share a girlfriend. But NO MEN. Luckily for me, I don't want another man. And he is ok with refraining from sex with a girlfriend unless I'm alright with it. If he was different-wanted a girlfriend but didn't allow me a boyfriend even if I wanted one-we'd have some serious issues.

Funk2Lopez

10-10-2009, 01:06 AM

I really only ever wanted one man in my life but if we do end up in a V I would like someone special to spend some time with while they are together. I have had several men interested in me but not women. I would like to have a girlfriend. I had a female friend with benefits. That arrangement only lasted a couple of months and ended suddenly when her marriage failed and she moved in with her sister in northern Washington. Way too far for my clunker of a car to drive to, to visit. So she and I are now pen pals. I have been open to having a girlfriend but I have not had any luck finding one.

Ceoli

10-10-2009, 02:16 AM

If it was a V, then they could go on dates and I'll try to find a girlfriend for just me to be with while they are together.

I really only ever wanted one man in my life but if we do end up in a V I would like someone special to spend some time with while they are together.

I'm a bit worried by both of these statements. Are you looking for a relationship because you want to open and enrich your heart or are you looking for something to do to keep your mind off of the time the other two spend together? The way you're describing it, it looks like you would want to find somebody to use as a distraction or as a way to replace the love you feel you're missing when your husband is with your girlfriend.

That situation would hold little appeal for any potential girlfriends that are seeking healthy relationships. There are certainly problems and imbalances that need to be solved in your situation. I don't think finding "your own girlfriend" is going to actually get you what you need. Work on the problem first, THEN think about bringing other people in.

dingding

10-15-2009, 08:47 AM

it is depends on what jealous that is,if that is jealous that make us more productive that is good,and when it move to other way arround avoid it

LovingRadiance

12-03-2009, 03:44 AM

http://www.polyfamilies.com/polyjealousy.html

I liked this take on dealing with jealousy! These guys are pretty funny.

Maybe we could add other links to good articles on dealing with jealousy here? I know that Ceoli has posted a few on xeromag.com and I did before on lovemore.com

dakid

12-15-2009, 10:54 PM

finding myself surprised by the level of insecurity and jealousy i am experiencing recently.
been with my lover 2 years. both had one night stands with other people now and then, he more than me, both openly talking about our feelings as we went along.
been talking about polyamory as in not being primary or having hierarchies of lover in any way, since the summer.
as of a month ago both have new lovers outside our relationship, and i am struggling big time.
i wanted this as much as he did, although i didn't so much go out looking for potential other lovers as he, i'm happy i met my new lover. trouble is i can't stop thinking about his lover.
i am noticing all the differences between my new lover and his, thinking his is more likely to become an emotionally intimate primary type relationship with her whereas my new lover and i will be more casual with each other.
i am comparing myself to her, his new lover, and using the comparisons to criticise myself on every level.
part of me doesn't want to be sexual with him even, kind of turned off by the "competition" that doesn't really exist except in my crazy head.
any advice people?

redsirenn

12-16-2009, 12:03 AM

been talking about polyamory as in not being primary or having hierarchies of lover in any way, since the summer.
as of a month ago both have new lovers outside our relationship, and i am struggling big time.
i wanted this as much as he did, although i didn't so much go out looking for potential other lovers as he, i'm happy i met my new lover. trouble is i can't stop thinking about his lover.
i am noticing all the differences between my new lover and his, thinking his is more likely to become an emotionally intimate primary type relationship with her whereas my new lover and i will be more casual with each other.
i am comparing myself to her, his new lover, and using the comparisons to criticise myself on every level.
part of me doesn't want to be sexual with him even, kind of turned off by the "competition" that doesn't really exist except in my crazy head.
any advice people?

As you may be aware, jealousy might be a sign of other issues... here are a couple of thoughts/ things to think about:

Do you think that you maybe do want to be a "primary" with him?

Can you Identify what sets you apart from her? reading this, it seems like there migh be security issues at play here? Maybe if you identified what was special about yourself and only you, you wouldn't feel so competitive.

Also - this might be obvious, but what do you really want? If what you want is to be in a relationship with him, then go for that... i.e. don't let your head play games with you and sabotage things. Find a way to be happy for him. I always go back to "be a friend first, lover second". This though usually puts me on the path I want to be on. If I treat people as friends I usually put both my needs and thier needs at the forefront, like I would my best platonic gal friends.

dakid

12-16-2009, 11:24 AM

thank you redsiren. i think it generally is true when i am feeling jealousy it is a sign of other issues. if i am feeling really really good about myself i don't feel jealous or insecure.

i think a part of me wants to be his primary, but mostly i don't want to go down the route of declaring or promising to be primary over other potential relationships.

i instinctively don't want to have hierarchies like that, i don't like the idea of ranking or of asking other people to accept a secondary role like that. some relationships might have more importance at some times, but i don't have a "best" friend i have several that i feel close to with different friends coming to the fore in different moments. i suppose i hope that i can achieve something similar with lovers, in theory.

when we first together our relationship wasn't entirely balanced. i think he was slightly more into me than i him, although i was very keen. i had many more other commitments, friendships and family matters which took up my time and energy. he had much more freedom and time in his life then.

maybe what i am reacting to is a power shift in a way, from him worshipping me and being insecure, to him being the one with other stuff going in and me being insecure.

i like what you write about being a friend first and a lover second.

maybe i need to step back and let him enjoy falling in love with this woman, and be a friend for him in the meantime. try to be less selfish.

ouch but it hurts. feels like i have been demoted. i used to look in his eyes and see myself reflected as the most desirable wonderful creature in the world. now i see something else.

GroundedSpirit

12-16-2009, 05:26 PM

I like what Redsiren says about embracing the friendship aspect. I think this parallels a concept prominent in some of the eastern philosophys referred to as "non-attachment". That kind of discussion can get kind of deep and complex but in a short version the idea is to learn to not attach to "outcomes". It doesn't mean we don't care. it doesn't mean we don't love. It's an acknowledgment that life doesn't revolve around us, but will flow the way it will, at that by trying to draw our own map of how that will happen will more than likely lead to disappointment or worse.
If you think about it, that's kind of the way we process "friendships". We care about & love our friends and wish the best for them and our continued friendship. But there's not a heavy "attachment" there. We just seem to acknowledge that they will live their lives as best they know how, and that although we want to help & support them, in the end we can't (and shouldn't) make their decisions for them. We hope that the friendship will continue & grow but we acknowledge from the beginning that it's not within our control and can take twists that we can't foresee at the moment. Try to keep the whole environment warm & embracing but relaxed without expectations and see where it goes.
Hope that makes sense.

GS

berserker239

12-16-2009, 08:32 PM

The big green monster eh? EVERYONE gets jealous, regardless of what they say. It is a natural human emotion, sweetheart and its nothing to be ashamed of. Just simply think the thoughts, but understand that your the one he picked. Your the one he chose first, adding to the relationship benefits you just as much him as long as you take advantage of it.

Like i tell everyone, spend less time trying to dodge the things that hurt you and just take the blows. Clean up afterward, what doesnt kill us always makes us stronger.

Short yes but i think my message is clear and will sink in. If you have any other questions or need to get anything off your chest (like a bra. jkjk) message me :)

redpepper

12-16-2009, 10:32 PM

Is it possible to spend some time with her and become acquainted? Perhaps you will find that she is just as human as you are and has her good points and not so good points. I find this helps me to know end. It makes me realize that my husbands partners are also going through stuff too and that they are not some big mysterious ogre that is better than me. What's interesting is that they are quite often like me in many ways and I can learn something about myself. Sometimes I can't stand them for that reason, but I still learn something about myself and see that as a positive.

The other thing here is that it might be a good idea to take the time to do things for you. Get to know yourself and get to know some new people. If you are able to go out and date other people then find someone that you find interesting, friend or otherwise, someone that makes you feel that you are special and hang with them more for a bit. This doesn't mean that he loves you less or you love him less, just that you are independent and can have your own life that doesn't involve him and what he is doing... the distraction may be just what you need to see past your jealousy.

Ceoli

12-16-2009, 10:40 PM

This is a great piece of writing about another way to look at the idea of one lover being compared with another lover. It might help you develop a new perspective:

http://tacit.livejournal.com/241568.html

dakid

12-18-2009, 11:39 AM

thank you so much for all your responses. i followed the link, read it, followed other links within the piece, did lots of reading, its all good and helpful.

unfortunately it seems the relationship between my lover and his other lover has ended already. she was upset apparently because she felt that she was more "into" him than he her, and so needed it to end. i think if she had hung on a while his feelings probably would have developed and become more intense/loving but its her choice and of course i respect that.

the relationship ending doesn't end my thinking and learning though! the stuff it brought up for me is still here in my head and my heart.

questions about what kind of relationship we have, my lover and i, and what kind of relationship we want. questions about how much my insecurities are my responsibility alone and how much they might reflect issues within our relationship that we need to work on together. questions about whether i really can handle polyamory when it means my lover potentially falling in love and having (an)other lover(s) who has equal status to me for want of a better way of putting it. can my pride really share him on an emotional level?
what help can i or he give to help my ego deal with the challenges? how do i want to relate with his lovers?

unless things change again between them, my lover and the woman who is currently his ex, and they get back together, i guess i have to see this as a kind of rehearsal/practise and chance to learn about myself and us. preparation for next time in other words.

i think i need a fair chunk of time to reflect, process, and analyse all that has come up recently before i can answer my own questions, and i really hope i get that time before he next gets involved with somebody, because i so want to be able to be happy for him/them when that does happen.

thanks again for your good words

x

booklady78

12-20-2009, 05:52 AM

I've been in a V triad for about 5 months now. My boyfriend is equally new to polyamory and stated in the beginning that he would like a monogamous relationship some day. He was looking for a friend, someone to have fun with, without the worries of a traditional relationship. I was looking for a friend as well, someone 'new' to experience. We were all kind of 'learning as we went' and so far, it has been the adventure of a lifetime. Call it "NRE" but I've been incredibly happy these last months, practically giddy. I love the men in my life and love everything I've been experiencing and learning.
I have yet to feel any jealousy regarding my husband as he has yet to find anyone, but is open to the possibility. He has had his share of jealousy that we have talked a great deal about and we have found that 'balance'.
Now, here's my boyfriend, who was never expecting to be part of a triad, none of us were. But there you have it and here we are. He's happy with the way things are and isn't actively searching for anyone else. Here lies my question... I am secretly relieved that he doesn't want anyone else right now. Is that fair? Is that right? I have no issues with my husband finding someone, but the idea of my boyfriend with someone else sparks the little green meanies. The situation hasn't even come up at all, but I'm a bit of a worrier and wonder 'what if'.
I wonder if this can work this way or if things have to change. I've spoken with each of them about this and everyone seems to be in agreement that we just 'see where things go and communicate when things arise'.
Thoughts anyone? Can there be 'monogamy' within a triad?

nikkiana

12-20-2009, 06:27 AM

I'm guessing that the little green meanies are more easily sparked with thoughts of your boyfriend finding someone new because he's said that he'd like to be in a monogamous relationship someday, and you're probably at some level concerned that if he meets someone that he really ends up being into, he'll want to be monogamous with her and things between the two of you will cease. Whereas, with your husband, you're more secure in the fact that he's not going to leave you if he finds someone he hits it off with.

Whether this can work... well, I guess you have to define what 'working' is for you....

I tend to be somewhat prone to the same sort of situation... I have a tendancy to date men who aren't interested in a long-term relationship, but are looking for something for the now... Not in the one night stand sense, but they want someone in their lives that they can go to and share with that's special, but there's sort of an understanding that the relationship isn't going to go on forever and may never become a 'life partner'.

I guess whether this can work really depends on your outlook on things. If you're of the opinion that it's not worth your effort if the relationship doesn't have the possibility to turn into a long term partnership, I guess it's probably not going to work out so well. If you're of the opinion that if you just accept things as they are and stop worrying what the future's going to bring and accepting that some things might change, I think it can work.

I honestly don't expect that most of the people that I might consider a partner to stay with me forever, and while I sometimes struggle with that... I'm mostly okay with it. I'd rather enjoy someone I care about every day I can, and if there comes a point where we need to part ways.... I'll just be glad I had the time to spend.

GroundedSpirit

12-20-2009, 07:12 PM

That's a VERY healthy and balanced outlook.
I tend to think that we fail to live "in the moment" too much. I'm not saying some longer term goals or desires have no place, but they also risk blinding us to beautiful things in the present.
There's a balance there and no guarantee that tomorrow will even come. I was not so long ago reminded of that fact by a nasty car accident that came close to ending my tomorrows ! Gifts come in strange packages :)

GS

booklady78

12-28-2009, 06:47 AM

My bf considers himself 'in a relationship' and is not seeking anyone else. He's honestly not sure how our little 'triad' will work down the road, but everyone agrees that we're very happy now. I can see him being a part of my life, always. I love my husband and bf a great deal and call it NRE, but I've never been happier. I'm still struggling with how to integrate my bf into my life, as we're not openly poly. This has all been such a 'rollercoaster' with it's highs and lows. My husband and I were 'committed' to each other very early on in our relationship and that continues to this day. I think a part of me wants that same 'commitment', that no matter if he finds someone, that he'll still stay a part of my life.

redpepper

12-28-2009, 07:56 AM

Hi booklady, you seem to be where our triad was at about 8 months ago... about the time we started writing on here. If you want to look back that far.

I totally get what you are talking about. I too would have no problem with my husband finding another. In fact he has a boyfriend that has come on our scene since i got together with Mono.

If Mono found another I would be out. I get that he is not interested in another and I get that he couldn't be poly, so I have thought long and hard about what that means. I would be VERY concerned if he took interest in another woman.

I love that he is mono. There is something so settling and calming for me in that. I can sit back and be loved by him entirely, without any thought that I will have to do any work around other partners. I have that work with my husband and that is enough for me.

On the other hand though, I could not be with just mono. It would bring up all the issues I had when I was in other mono relationships and would lead to my leaving eventually as my needs would not be met. My husband and I have a bond through poly as much as I have a bond with Mono through monogamy. I am finding that hard to explain, but really I feel I have the best of both worlds...:) they are a package deal to me.

MonoVCPHG

12-28-2009, 08:00 AM

On the other hand though, I could not be with just mono. It would bring up all the issues I had when I was in other mono relationships and would lead to my leaving eventually as my needs would not be met. My husband and I have a bond through poly as much as I have a bond with Mono through monogamy. I am finding that hard to explain, but really I feel I have the best of both worlds...:) they are a package deal to me.

This is such a true statement. I think about if things were to change and it was just us and I know it would not be possible for the long haul either as my own needs would become different and more possessive. You and your husband are a package deal as well...cool how that works :)

Ceoli

12-28-2009, 11:43 AM

I totally get what you are talking about. I too would have no problem with my husband finding another. In fact he has a boyfriend that has come on our scene since i got together with Mono.

I seem to remember you mentioning that you might not be happy if your husband developed a relationship with another woman. Have you managed to get past that?

redpepper

12-28-2009, 08:03 PM

I seem to remember you mentioning that you might not be happy if your husband developed a relationship with another woman. Have you managed to get past that?

I was just PMing someone about this. Funny you should ask.

On Christmas eve my husbands boyfriend was over and visiting our house for the first time. I took note of how much he is like other women and men that my husband chooses to associate with. It made me feel special that he chooses good people that are similar to me, yet different. I felt that because I could see myself in his partner that I was special to him. Does that make sense? He had qualities about him that I like in myself and that made me feel good.

So if he were to find a woman I think I could handle it as I would assume that it would be a similar experience. I would think that I would also like the women he chooses for the same reasons. Of course this could be seen as a threat also.

Of course this remains to be seen and is an expectation. I have always been open to him finding a female as much as a male, I just think I would react differently. That remains to me seen also.

I think I am a bit more past this, but really until it happens I won't know. I can only prepare and then try and remember what my preparations were when the time comes.

I certainly won't be happy as such, but will be happy for him and can see how my happiness for myself could grow. I would be surprised really as he isn't looking and has told me that he is fine with the way things are at the moment. He will tell me if he ever thinks that he is ready to actively look again.

Brooklyne

12-31-2009, 01:31 AM

Hi. I'm new to this lifestyle. And by new, I mean the courting of another girl finally came to a head last night. I didn't know how I was going to feel about it until it happened. A slight tinge of jealousy hangs in the back of my mind like wondering if I left the iron on. It's just there. I'm a very secure person. I know who I am, I love myself AND I am secure in my ability to handle new situations -- I'm adaptable. I just can't seem to shake the nagging feeling in the back of my head and the seemingly unrelated - and I hope it is - nausea.

A little history: My beau and I dated 5 years ago. Our relationship ended when he slept with another woman. He never explained his sex addiction to me and I was blind sided. I was more upset about the lying that went on surrounding the month he was sleeping with her. Sex has never been a coveted thing for me, but honesty is the pure air in which I breath; It is my life force. Not being able to trust him, we went our separate ways. Four years later, I ran into him at a local venue, tell him I forgive him, which I had, and move on with my life. It was a short while before we were back at it again, trying to make something work. He had to learn to forgive himself and accept himself as I do. The lying was a symptom of his archaic ideals -- marriage and monogamy are the main goal and anything else is bad.

We have been honest with each other through this last year, including my acceptance of the inevitable. Accepting him as a sex addict, I cannot expect him to remain faithful to only me. He will explore especially when the pressure hits . The terms of our current relationship is such that I will know who he has been with, for my safety and his. He has been painfully [for him] honest and is accepting it as a way of life.

Last night, a girl, a friend of us both, came over and we all hung out. This is not the first time this has happened, though this was the first time anything happened between the two of them. I went to bed. He came to bed hours later and didn't touch me. Normally he cuddles up with me and holds me for an hour or so before turning over. He didn't even rub me. He laid there, as far from me on the bed as possible. I knew at that point that it had happened and immediately became nauseous. Been nauseous since. :confused:

She's here all day, will be here until tomorrow and I don't know how to shake this jealousy/nausea. I like this girl. She's amazing, loving, funny, and thinks I'm awesome. If I had stayed awake, it'da been us three. So, I'm not really getting the jealousy. He cuddled with her on the couch this afternoon while they played video games [to clarify, we're on vacay, so time is ours :D]. I noticed that I didn't like that much. But I feel that jealousy correlates with not getting much attention from him after finding out what happened. This is my first time being in this sort of relationship. I'm calling it polyamorous because of the 2 months of courting he did with her, she is a family friend and I am super close to her. She's not just a one night fling that he'll never call again. We'd discussed those types of relationships and he's more uncomfortable with them than I am.

[I]My issue: I don't want to hate this. I pride myself in being open, loving and able to handle heavy loads. I love him. He is more than a partner to me, he is my soulmate. My only goal is for him to be happy. I left last time because I could not trust him, which would harm the relationship irreparably. I expect to continue in our relationship as it is, but with a new confidence on his side because the sacred seal has been broken... he has gone somewhere no woman has ever allowed him before. I am the first girlfriend that hasn't tried to change him and has only encouraged him to grow and accept himself as he is. I'm certain the jealousy will subside, so I suppose I'm here to tell my story, vent and get feedback. I hope to hear [read] stories of others that have gotten over this hump. Being new and hating jealousy [it's not a feeling I'm used to - I experienced it for the first time 5 years ago], I am ready for this lump in my throat to be over. Someone hand me a light!

redpepper

12-31-2009, 06:30 AM

There is a lot on this forum about jealousy, have a look around and have a good read. I hope some of it helps.

The fact is that he cheated. He broke your agreement again. Of course you would have feelings about that. An agreement is an agreement, even if you like this woman and see her as potentially someone to have around for awhile or for the long haul.

What does she say about all this anyway? Has she said anything at all? If not then that is a red flag to me. If she is really going to work out then a conversation about what happened and what it means to you is a good step to take I would think.

I would hope to that you would talk to your boyfriend and tell him how you feel about his cheating on you again. Just because he has a sex addiction and you have been the only one to accept that, does not mean he gets to do whatever he wants in my opinion. Perhaps some communicating about what to do in situations where there is another female in the house would be in order? It may not be the end of the world, just something that was over looked perhaps.

MonoVCPHG

12-31-2009, 07:46 AM

He never explained his sex addiction to me and I was blind sided.

"Sex addiction" is actually a very serious condition. I thought I had one and was actually evaluated as not having one. Seriously..this is not something to take lightly if he truly does have one. I'm not saying he doesn't but if he is just self diagnosing it may be more of an excuse to act on impulse, not an inability to control sexual behavior. Sex addiction is a destructive force.

Has he gotten any treatment for this? Your health could be at risk as well as sexual addiction can leads to extremely dangerous sexual safety issues.

Take care
Mono

lipsnlace

12-31-2009, 07:07 PM

But I feel that jealousy correlates with not getting much attention from him after finding out what happened.

Did he tell you about what happened, or did you just assume that something did based on his behavior? If he didn't talk to you about it and tell you what had happened, then he's still not being honest with you about his relations with other women, which seems like cheating. He may have not wanted to touch you because he felt guilty about what he did with your friend.

You should definitely talk to him about it, and about how it made you feel. I agree with Redpepper that being poly isn't about having a free pass to do what you'd like with anyone. It's a lot easier to operate within everyone's comfort zone when you know where the boundaries are.

Do you think you would have felt better about it if he had talked to you about being with her before it had happened? Should he have told you when he came to bed? Do you feel like you need a normal level of affection (or more?) from him when there's another woman there? These are things you should probably talk about with your man if you want to feel more comfortable about it next time, if you want a next time.

If you're clear about your expectations with him, then it'll be easier for him to feel more comfortable sharing with you, too.

Anyway, hope that helps. Hang in there. :)

Brooklyne

12-31-2009, 11:27 PM

NeonKaos

12-31-2009, 11:44 PM

Wow, I thought I was being clear, but it seems from the responses I was not. :confused: I read and reread my post and thought it was okay, that my points were made.

I'm lost as to what to say to you all. Um, thanks for trying?

There was nothing UNclear about your original post. However, it seems as though you were looking for a particular response and did not get it.

You asked for ways to help deal with your jealousy, and people offered some suggestions. I don't think you need to say anything to us "all" because you initiated the conversation, and people responded. It isn't like this has reached the level of "debate" yet where you need to be "making points".

Something about your more recent post suggests to me that there is some kind of control-struggle going on in your relationship, but of course we don't know how your life works, what you've been through, etc. etc. etc. and if I were to continue speculating I'm afraid I might be perceived as "judging" you so I'm gonna stop here.

redpepper

12-31-2009, 11:53 PM

It would be great to have some answers to the questions some of us posed but really its up to you if you are willing to fill is in on more of what's going on.

Only then can anyone come up with some kind of advice on how to deal with your jealousy. Its really a matter of what you are willing share and what you are willing to wade through to get to some nuggets, in the form of answers for yourself.

Brooklyne

01-01-2010, 12:20 AM

@Redpepper Nothing you said had anything to do with what I wrote. I never said he cheated again, you read way too far into what I was saying and missed it entirely. He courted her for two months and why would I know that if he wasn't being honest? No agreement was broken. No red flags, just an annoying tinge of jealousy that I wasn't expecting to deal with because, like I said, I don't experience jealousy.

@lipsandlace You were a bit more helpful, but agreeing with redpepper made me believe that I was not clear AT ALL, therefore at a loss for words.

redpepper

01-01-2010, 01:38 AM

I read what I read and responded... I am sorry if you are annoyed with that. That just happens on a forum when someone writes something... all that is needed is to clarify and move on, that's it. It is a bit of a guessing game until everyone gets what the question is and what the problem is.

anyway, i hope you figure it out.

lipsnlace

01-01-2010, 08:58 AM

Being foreign to you and your feelings makes it difficult to assess your situation. We can offer you help by asking you questions that could help to clarify the situation for us that maybe you haven't thought of, but without being involved, we can't really do much.

The reason I agreed with Redpepper is that it would seem from your guy's actions (i.e. not even touching you after, being as far from you in the bed as he could), that he felt guilty. If he felt like he had something to be guilty about, that's not good. But like she said, it's probably not the end of the world. Perhaps you just need to communicate about what you expect from him after he does "hang out" with another woman. If you can work on why he felt guilty about it and what he needs so he doesn't feel that way, your needs will likely be met because he'll feel more comfortable.

There's no reason to get defensive, we're just trying to help with the information we've been given. :)

GroundedSpirit

01-01-2010, 02:18 PM

Hi Brooke,

Here's something that may or may not help you untangle this a little.
This feeling of discomfort - you label as jealousy - is not irrational, especially depending on your upbringing, background, history etc. The previous violation of trust you mentioned is likely a key to it. I think that's a huge pushbutton for everyone ! Could talk in depth on that one another time.
No matter - I think the important thing to focus on is that eliminating "jealousy" - or any such uncomfortable (nauseous) feeling unfortunately is not just a question of identifying it and saying "it's gone" - poof !
It's a skill and takes practice and dedication. You've taken step 1 by identifying it. Now you practice ways of dealing with it - internally & externally. As I believe someone else has already mentioned, from your brief writing it would appear that the communication between the two of you is not where it should be yet. You both have your guard up a bit - yours being the violation of trust - his guilt & fear of future violation.
This is an ideal situation for you both to open up more and talk about that. No expectations or agenda - just talk. Talk about your feelings, how the situation developed, how you might acknowledge each others place when it arises in the future.
You're just in the early practice stages. Don't be discouraged or afraid - just acknowledge where you're both at at this moment and take heart in the fact that probably all of us have been there at one time also.
We're all here to help any way we can !

GS

booklady78

01-02-2010, 03:40 AM

One of the biggest hurdles we've had with jealousy is being able to talk about it. When my husband and I were in the beginning of exploring the boundaries of polyamory for our situation it was very awkward. When he would get jealous and/or feel hurt about something I had done, it was hard not be defensive. It took awhile to learn that it wasn't about me 'fixing' the jealousy, it was about helping him understand the root of it. It was also hard for me to talk about all the happiness and fun I was experiencing and I was the one coming to bed, cold and distant, because I felt guilty. For a brief while, I didn't want to share what I was experiencing with my BF with my husband because I wanted to avoid him feeling jealous. That really didn't work well so we've tried to be open and honest about things now and respect each others feelings, as well as our 'reaction' to each others feelings. It's one hellava job learning how to communicate so much and we're certainly not experts. It's the one thing I think is the key to making poly relationships work, communication about the feelings that arise. Bottling up any feelings thinking you are sparing someone is likely to backfire.

GroundedSpirit

01-02-2010, 04:06 PM

"At first sight, it may look as if the green gods and goddesses of the Buddhist pantheon have defeated the green-eyed monster of jealousy. Upon closer inspection, however, it becomes apparent that this perception needs correction. The problem is that the Buddhist terms translated as "jealousy"--such as issa (Pali); phrag dog (Tibetan); or irshya (Sanskrit)--are more accurately read as "envy." In the various Buddhist descriptions of "jealousy" we generally find illustrations of bitterness and resentment at the happiness, talents, or good fortune of others, but very rarely, if ever, of contracting fear and anger in response to a mate's sexual or emotional connection to others. In the Abhid-hamma, for example, jealousy (issa) is considered an immoral mental state characterized by feelings of ill will at the success and prosperity of others. The description of the "jealous gods" realm (asura-loka) also supports this assertion. Though commonly called "jealous," the asuras are said to be envious of the gods of the heaven realm (devas), and possessed by feelings of ambition, hatred, and paranoia."

This is a clip from a link that River posted on another thread. It struck home with me because I feel that a clear distinction is important to anyone attempting to navigate a polyamorous lifestyle. It's also a topic that I have had many long discussions over the years with many people.
One of the reasons I feel it's so important is that I've seen a number of people do a lot of work and quite literally conquer the "jealousy" (fear) part of their makeup, only to later find themselves struggling again. After deeper discussions and thought, it finally surfaces that in fact it's NOT jealousy at all - but simply "envy". Understanding this places the feelings on a whole different level and will be addressed in a quite different manner.
It's quite common in polyamorous lifestyles that one person seems to be faring better/having more success in connecting with the people they desire in their lives. It's not atypical to have feelings of "envy" surface in these situations, but it's also easier to put those feelings in proper perspective (and action) if you call a spade a spade. Because the handling of those feelings require very different processes.

GS

CielDuMatin

01-02-2010, 04:23 PM

I have got very confused as to the distinction between the two.

I used to believe that jealousy was the feeling that you had a relationship that you valued and could lose and that envy was about wanting to possess something that is valued.

So jealousy would be when your lover showed attention to someone and you are in fear of that negatively impacting your own relationship with your lover, while you could be envious of someone else who has a relationship which you perceive as better than your own in some way (even though you don't want to have a relationship with either of them).

Even with those definitions there is some overlap, of course. But I think that as in so many words in the language, the distinctions have been blurred to the point where they are now used synonymously and have watered down the nuances of the two concepts.

The bottom line is, whether it's envy or jealousy or whatever you want to call it, if there is some negative feeling that is going on in your relationship situation, take a good look at what is going on and to get in touch with the underlying causes and work with your partners to get them addressed before they get enveloped in anger, sadness, or resentment and blow up into something that eclipses the original issues and becomes much harder to deal with.

ladyjools

01-03-2010, 02:30 PM

come barreling into a room all happy and smiley, ready to chat and get to know people, eager to tell my story and share experiences, learn from others and love them for who they are and I am faced with them looking me over, taking note of my situation and then get the eye roll and the cold shoulder.

I can SO relate to this, one of things I love about being so openly poly is that i CAN talk about my life and how happy i am and why. I want to tell my friends how lovley R has been how much i am looking forward to him moving in, and how content i feel when they are both together and getting on well,
and a lot of the time i get a cold reaction, raised eyebrows,

One time a friend even said to me "you are stealing all the men" I can't even get one and you have 2 how is that fair. I'm not sure how to reply to that statement, I do not feel that the people i love belong to me, i don't own them so how can i steal them but i did apreciate her honesty in telling me how she feels i know that at the moment she is very unhappy with her love life so i am trying to be more sensitive.

If XYZ123 is reading, I fear it is what you and I discussed about my having my cake and eating it too. How having two men is frowned upon for women, but not for men with two women.

when people say this to me, which iv heard often i say,
what is the point in having a cake I cannot eat!!

Basically it comes down to this
I cannot control other peoples envy, i can only encorage them to find there own happyness in love and life and i refuse to apologise for being happy. I hvae been through hell to get where I am now my life has not all been plane sailing and I am sure you have had your fair share of heartache and sorrow too redpepper. Everyone deserves a little happyness.

Jools

CielDuMatin

01-03-2010, 03:02 PM

One time a friend even said to me "you are stealing all the men" I can't even get one and you have 2 how is that fair. Oh yes! This, and other variations on how selfish I must be to "have" two women (like I own them, and it somehow takes them out of some imaginary dating pool) when they can't get a date! That seems to be one of those gut reactions that they haven't even thought through.... I mean, if I have a poly girlfriend, then she is POLY and still "available". If the person was thinking of having this person all to themselves, well, that won't work either, because she's POLY!

I think that is pure envy at play! :-)

I have great sympathy for those that can't find someone and feel that they need someone in their lives. But I won't take the blame or feel guilty for it because I have two girlfriends....

But yes, it's very hard what to say to those that are single, but then again, I'm sure they go through the same feelings when they see a monogamous marriage working well, with kids running around... (if that's what they want) - so not really sure that in that case being successful at poly is any different....

If XYZ123 is reading, I fear it is what you and I discussed about my having my cake and eating it too. How having two men is frowned upon for women, but not for men with two women. Well, I can't give anything but one data point, but I haven't found the stereotypical male "woah you get two women! You dog!" reaction from people that I have told (both male and female). The normal reaction is that my mono partner is being taken advantage of in some way and that this make me a bit of a "cad" and why can't I be happy with just one person, and how does that make the one person feel when you want another and so on.

Basically it comes down to this I cannot control other peoples envy, i can only encorage them to find there own happyness in love and life and i refuse to apologise for being happy.Yes, that's pretty much the same place I have got to. If others want to look down on me for being poly (or not doing poly right, or not being poly enough or whatever) then that is their decision, and that I need to be true to myself primarily, and ensure my happiness, and then to the ones I love, respect and care about, to help them have a happy life.

Everyone deserves a little happyness.così sia, ainsi soit-il, so say we all and amen to that! :)

GroundedSpirit

01-03-2010, 03:06 PM

I have got very confused as to the distinction between the two.

So jealousy would be when your lover showed attention to someone and you are in fear of that negatively impacting your own relationship with your lover, while you could be envious of someone else who has a relationship which you perceive as better than your own in some way (even though you don't want to have a relationship with either of them).

Yea - basically right Ciel.
"Jealousy" is coming from a place of fear - some perceived threat.
"Envy" is coming from a place of "want"

Wants are much easier to set aside, to get a more realistic perspective on.
Fear is a different beast ! Reactions to fear are often disproportionate, clouded with emotion etc, especially for those without some history and background on how to handle it productively. Fear is an important component of survival but it can't be allowed free reign, or the consequences can lead to what the alarm was for - failure to survive.

GS

CielDuMatin

01-03-2010, 03:14 PM

"Jealousy" is coming from a place of fear - some perceived threat.
"Envy" is coming from a place of "want"Ah yes, this helps.

So someone else who says they are jealous of what I have in my poly relationship is actually envious, and I can help them by working out what they want in life (if they don't know already) - in other words, help them find way to get what they want (or realise that they don't really want this).

When someone says they are jealous it's worth taking a step back and working out whether it truly is jealousy or envy, which results in different approaches in how to work with the issue at hand.

Nice. This was very useful! Thank you!

redpepper

01-04-2010, 07:39 AM

MonoVCPHG

01-04-2010, 07:45 AM

What I find interesting is envy among "v" members about how much time and lack of connection because of lack of time. It's so important to keep tabs on that and find a balance before that envy raises... envy can rise about perceived thoughts on how much the others are having sex, or date time, or amount of time together...

all such a delicate balance.

I never thought of that? I don't feel it honestly....hmmmm I think this is do to my feeling very appreciative of any time I get with you...like it is a gift from you and your husband. Your time is a privilege for me...interesting how I feel nothing of fear, envy, jealousy or possessiveness toward your primary relationship. And yet the thought of other situations makes my brain melt. I've explained that in other posts though I believe.

Does anyone else feel like this?

redpepper

01-04-2010, 09:08 AM

I never thought of that? I don't feel it honestly....hmmmm I think this is do to my feeling very appreciative of any time I get with you...like it is a gift from you and your husband.

Well then, we know who feels like this sometimes... ;)

MonoVCPHG

01-04-2010, 09:09 AM

Well then, we know who feels like this sometimes... ;)

yeah:(

GroundedSpirit

01-04-2010, 06:29 PM

What I find interesting is envy amongst "v" members about how much time and lack of connection because of lack of time. It's so important to keep tabs on that and find a balance before that envy raises... envy can rise about perceived thoughts on how much the others are having sex, or date time, or amount of time together...

all such a delicate balance.

Hi Red,

yea - it IS a delicate balance and I think it's one of the most challenging aspects of living poly day-to-day. There's a couple of issues here.

1> Limited time & resources. This is just real - is what it is. Have to be careful of spreading ourselves too thin between work, family, loves, personal time etc. Truly is a balance and not easy to achieve even if you didn't have multiple loves added to the picture. But EVERYONE should be equally aware of this and not add more to it than already exists.

2> Neediness
I think in some relationships I see some who are just more ....."needy" than others. For lack of a better term. This is one reason I speak out frequently about the dangers of this and striving for us all to be as independent as possible. The more the time we spend together is driven by desire rather than need (or competition), the more special those times truly are. I'd much prefer to only spend 4 hrs/wk with someone who was really cherishing that 4 hrs than spend 4 days with someone who was so insecure that they couldn't function without my presence.
Does that make sense ?
Obviously people's insecurities play a big role in this. You really have to believe you are fully capable of standing on your own two feet and practice doing it whenever possible.

Being too "needy" and "smothering" is a sure way to put stress on any relationship. Then the time spent together starts to become more of an obligation that a heartfelt desire. Part of loving & compersion (?) is to acknowledge people need sufficient space to gather themself in, to better understand who they really are. The better they are to bring their true selves into the relationship.

Breathesgirl

01-04-2010, 11:18 PM

Jealousy is sometimes a very hard thing to process, especially when you're trying to figure out the ROOT of the jealousy.

I'm gonna go back to something you said in the original post. You said he lay as far from you as possible on the bed. Maybe one of the reasons you're feeling nauseous is that you didn't get your usual cuddle time before sleep.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting that. Tell him, if that's one of the things bothering you, about it and work out how you can still get that cuddle time even when he has been with someone else.

One of our rules has always been that I'm ok with his being with other people as long as I get my fair share. This may sound a little unfair to him until you know that his sex drive was nearly non-existent for four years so if he did have sex with someone else i would not only have to wait the usual 2 weeks after the last time WE had sex I would also have to wait the 2 weeks after he had been with someone else.

Why did I tell you that? As an example of stating your wants & finding a way to get them met without anyone getting all bent out of shape over it.

One article I have found very, very helpful in dealing with my own jealousy issues is on Xeromag. Franklin (the site owner) has a unique way of putting things that helps even those of us who are sometimes as bright as a burnt out light bulb to understand some of the more complex issues & jealousy is most definitely complex!

This part is to anyone: is it ok to post links to other sites on here? I would love to post the Xeromag link but I don't want to do something verboten.

Robin

ImaginaryIllusion

01-04-2010, 11:58 PM

This part is to anyone: is it ok to post links to other sites on here? I would love to post the Xeromag link but I don't want to do something verboten.

These kinds of questions can be easily answered by reviewing the Site Guidelines (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1787).

Xeromag (http://www.xeromag.com/fvpoly.html)and plenty of other poly oriented resources have been linked, especially in threads such as this one (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=675).

So absolutely feel free to link away as appropriate...and in accordance with the Site Guidelines (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1787) if you please. :)

redpepper

01-05-2010, 07:35 AM

time spent together starts to become more of an obligation that a heartfelt desire. Part of loving & compersion (?) is to acknowledge people need sufficient space to gather themself in, to better understand who they really are. The better they are to bring their true selves into the relationship.

yes, this is what Nerdist and I have been working on. We seem to have come to a new idea and that is that we need to spend 20-30 minutes a day connecting in the form of talking and doing something together. Even if it's just having tea together. When it's over we will move on rather than feel like we should be hanging out.

Quite often I get no me time. I take it rather than have it. To me it's my right to have my own time. My right has been taken away as of late and it does not make for my happiness.

We will try our new idea out... day 1, it was hard to end the 20 minutes and Nerdist hung around too long for my liking. We will try it again tomorrow and continue to work it out. Part of it is he is in need of going out and socializing more. He says he feels as if he lives in the shadow of me most of the time.... that isn't my fault. I can't do anything about that, he can though.

It has been a crazy fall and we are just now trying to balance again. Thanks for the thoughts. Much appreciated.

chg2winter

04-20-2010, 01:03 AM

So...one thought I've had lately is that when I am feeling jealous, if I sit with it long enough and am honest with my self, it is really fear. Fear that someone will leave me, or fear that someone is better than I so I won't get something, or fear that I'll be alone.

So when I sit with that, I realize that it is actually a different feeling, a feeling of selfishness. It is fear that I won't get what I want. The special moments of time will be spent with someone else. The wonderful trip will be taken with someone else. The joy when you open your present, sharing your tears when you are sad, I won't get any of that.

When I sit with that feeling, I realize that the special moments of time, the wonderful trip, the joy when you open your present and you being able to share your tears with someone who loves you...these are the things I am resisting in my jealousy. That in effect I am saying 'I don't want you to have special moments of time/the wonderful trip/joy/shared tears unless it is with me!'. When I sit with that, it is easy to see that this is not true, that I want happiness for you regardless of where it comes from. And this allows me to easily feel compersion. The joy of your joy, not the questioning the source.

Just random thoughts of the moment.

TL4everu2

04-20-2010, 02:33 AM

Excellent write up.

LovingRadiance

04-20-2010, 04:11 AM

GREAT JOB!

Very good, I sent a copy of your post to my husband!!!

TL4everu2

04-20-2010, 01:37 PM

Yes, I just had my wife read it also.

disarmedheart

04-20-2010, 03:31 PM

There is such thing as jealousy (there is a word for it, after all :P), but its root lies in fear.

I'm of the opinion that any given action/thought/feeling is born either of fear or of love.

chg2winter

04-21-2010, 12:27 AM

Thank you for the responses...

(I have to admit, I expected to get slammed for such crazy talk :) )

Warmly,
Dan

TL4everu2

04-21-2010, 02:34 AM

Ok Dan....You're crazy? LOL There...Feel better now?

redpepper

04-21-2010, 05:43 PM

There is such thing as jealousy (there is a word for it, after all :P), but its root lies in fear.

I'm of the opinion that any given action/thought/feeling is born either of fear or of love.

I get what you mean, but for me that isn't the end of it. Love and fear are rooted in needs. As I have mentioned in other threads here. I think jealousy comes from a fear of not getting our needs met and compersion comes from realizing we can and in fact we get other needs met. In fact often times our need for seeing our loved one fullfilled is met. Just a thought.

MonoVCPHG

04-21-2010, 07:11 PM

In fact often times our need for seeing our loved one fullfilled is met. Just a thought.

I like this...I think it sums up how I feel about you and Derby. So smart ...and sexy ;)

bovellum

04-22-2010, 12:33 PM

There is such thing as jealousy (there is a word for it, after all :P), but its root lies in fear.

I'm of the opinion that any given action/thought/feeling is born either of fear or of love.

Im thinking that I agree with the OP and also with you dh, though I am not sure that I see how all thoughts and actions are born of one or the other and not possibly a third option at times - pain for instance?

What if the significant other is just plain neglectful and the jealousy is not rooted in one's fear but the painful experience of their very real needs not being met? Could there not be a form of jealousy that is rooted in the pain of longing alone - sans the fear?

Whereas fear can only be experienced in regards to things that have not yet happened, the pain of longing is in the present and therefore distinct from the fear of future events. I think that maybe in this way jealousy can be real.

However, the flip side (as dh implies) is that love should still be the anti-venom on both counts - for with the fulfilling love of the self, God and the Universe, longing should not exist; jealousy (fear or longing) is conquered by love.

Anne

04-24-2010, 04:19 AM

This is really beautiful, and close to what I guess. I´d like to know if there is a word for jealousy in all languages.

GroundedSpirit

04-25-2010, 03:45 PM

Im thinking that I agree with the OP and also with you dh, though I am not sure that I see how all thoughts and actions are born of one or the other and not possibly a third option at times - pain for instance?

What if the significant other is just plain neglectful and the jealousy is not rooted in one's fear but the painful experience of their very real needs not being met? Could there not be a form of jealousy that is rooted in the pain of longing alone - sans the fear?

Whereas fear can only be experienced in regards to things that have not yet happened, the pain of longing is in the present and therefore distinct from the fear of future events. I think that maybe in this way jealousy can be real.

However, the flip side (as dh implies) is that love should still be the anti-venom on both counts - for with the fulfilling love of the self, God and the Universe, longing should not exist; jealousy (fear or longing) is conquered by love.

We've had some discussion here and other places on getting clarity on the distinction between "jealousy" and "envy" as they are often confused and that confusion can lead to inappropriate understanding and action.

"Jealousy" is indeed a fear based emotion - fear of the unknown, fear of self constructed possibilities. The possible loss of a vision that maybe only WE see.

"Envy" is a least as common. Rooted in greed and selfishness. We have wants. Someone else seems to be more successful at fulfilling their wish list. We're maybe not doing so hot. Can't be our OWN fault - must be someone else's ? And in reality - it may be that we are helping them. So we we grab the self-sacrifice card.

All emotions that conflict with the true spirit of love & giving. Not the kind of things we want or need to embrace in our life - right ?

GS

LovingRadiance

04-25-2010, 07:27 PM

GS-

I think this is a key detail that MANY of us miss (me included until just now on a topic as a matter of fact!)

My question is-would you consider writing a thread on the difference of jealousy and envy (in your eyes) and how one deals with each productively?

I grasp the difference as you identified it. :) Makes perfect sense.
What I'm struggling with mentally right now is that obviously we talk a LOT about how to deal with, control and resolve FEAR based emotions/reactions.

What about a greed/selfcentered emotion/reaction?

;)

redpepper

04-26-2010, 01:42 AM

How's this sound, "jealousy is envy without any compersion."

GroundedSpirit

04-27-2010, 07:22 PM

I was thinking of this before and thanks to the prompting of a very special friend here, I thought I'd try to share my view and approach to the Jealousy/Envy thing.

Jealousy gets talked about a lot and approaches to dealing with it are plentiful. And strangely enough, at least in my mind, jealousy is the more simple of the two to get a grip on. Because it's a fear thing - once the fear is proven unfounded (the tiger was paper!) then it's basically done ! Not that we don't have to remind ourselves of that paper tiger on occasion - or even take a match to it (again) but once understood - always understood.

Envy now.........well that's another whole dragon indeed !

Maybe why we don't talk about it is because we were ALL taught as children how to combat things like greed and selfishness etc. We thought. But it keeps coming back. And I think a lot of us forget how cruel a thing it is and how critical it is to banish it. So we don't talk much about it. Or acknowledge it. And it keeps nipping at our heels.

And maybe we should ! (talk)

I like to think Envy has two 'A's in it :)

A1 - Acceptance
A2 - Action

The first 'A' - Acceptance. I think we let slip from our mind that there's no "equality" in life. Some say no fairness etc. It is what it is. There will always be people who have "more" of something than us and we will have "more" than others. And even this of course is in constant flux. Today it's this way - tomorrow may be entirely different.
Acceptance. It is what it is !
Allowing ourselves to dwell on the inequities in life only uses up mental and emotional resources that could be better used elsewhere (to be addressed in a minute). It introduces conflict and unhappiness over something that sometimes is not even in our control. We are NOT the center of the known universe ! OMG !

So I think the first step to leashing this dragon is that acceptance. When we frame this in the context of relationships and time etc, we have to be realistic. Time seems to be one area where envy surfaces. Most of us aren't masters of all our own time. We're pulled in a lot of directions by various commitments and responsibilities. So it happens that times sync up for some people at some time better than others. Then it may switch around. There's no equality, no balance and though it sucks, you still are stuck with the same choices. Accept that it's the way things go sometimes or drive yourself crazy fighting against the nature of life. Because sometimes it's just dumb luck and there's nothing we could have done differently to change the outcome anyway.
And in the spirit of love & giving, can't we celebrate at least for a moment that someone we care about happens to be coming out on top of all this random craziness ? Do we wish it was us too - hell ya ! But it isn't - yet. Acceptance. Sanity. Compersion ?

Now.............

All that being said, there's still the other 'A' left in the picture.

"Action"

Sometimes, when it appears someone else is the beneficiary of some "more" something - there's a reason. Sometimes that reason is that they've put more effort in to obtain it ! The family next door has a new car, boat and cottage on the lake. But they both work 80 hrs a week at professional positions they spent years in school for, and someone else takes car of their kids, cleans the house etc. They wanted it - they went and made it happen. Envy ? Unjustified and self destructive UNLESS we are willing to put in the same effort and sacrifice.
And then of course - on the other side - well - they just hit the lottery ! No effort required. Dumb luck.
Envy ? Why ? Pointless negative energy. How about we celebrate their luck with them ? Even buy them a gift for good luck ! Which do we think will make us feel better and let us move forward with our own lives better ? What will help make us more loving - and lovable ? Karma anyone ?
Choice !

And I see similar parallels in love & relationships too. At least in how they play out. Sometimes some people have put tremendous effort into themselves. Trying to learn to be a better person. They have become very "lovable". Desirable to be around. Warm and comfortable.
Trying to better be owners & directors of their own time. Made choices that put them in better positions more frequently. More flexibility.

But these are "action" items. Things we put intentional effort into with the expectation of rewards if we pull it off. But sitting back, crying "foul-unfair (envy)", doesn't move us closer to what we want. Only WE can move us closer sometimes. Action.
And yea, sometimes someone flies us there - free ! It happens. The equivalent of the lottery win. It happens !
Well damn ! You lucky bitch/bastard - let me give you a hug ! That's a choice too. I'm a believer in Karma :) And even if I wasn't - it sure makes me feel a lot better.

So it can look like a circle, where we move from acceptance to action and sometimes back around to acceptance. Every day is unique. But if we can be engaged in the process rather than wasting time sitting on the sidelines, the law of averages may work in our favor. All choices.

Thoughts & ramblings............

GS

Ariakas

04-27-2010, 07:45 PM

Excellent post GS...things I consider all the time. Reading your post is liking reading bits of my life. Thanks for the perspective

redpepper

04-28-2010, 03:20 PM

So, I think we have established that there are different types of Poly relationships from married/long term couples that are involved with other partners in a family or more poly fidelity kind of way, to a more casual swinging/open type of way. There also are relationships whereby the person or persons are all unattached to a primary and have many lovers/partners of varying types and styles.

Are there differences in the level of jealousy between different styles of poly? I mean, I would THINK, that in a situation where there is a primary couple, there would be more jealousy within that couple as opposed to someone who has no primary. Is jealousy lower in this latter group do you think?

NeonKaos

04-28-2010, 03:24 PM

Perhaps not jealousy, but territoriality. People who are "opening up" their monogamous relationship have up to that point probably thought of one another as "my husband" or "my wife" or "my partner", where someone who has been "open" from the get-go would not have this conditioning to un-do.

Ariakas

04-28-2010, 03:26 PM

hmmm well in my limited experience I have to say I really don't (I will say yet) feel jealousy in regards to my primary. In the end we have a long established happy relationship that I can't see any reason for ending. With that security I am comfortable and confident.

However I have felt jealousy over our secondary. That was almost purely due to the fact that she would not...hmmmm...commit (in a non-monogamous way of course)...we never knew whether she was coming or going. This brought up every insecurity I ever had. When we went out, I wondered why she wasn't with me, at home she wasn't touching etc. It never officially ended or started....so I had a lot of jealousy. I hate guessing...

Will I feel jealousy with any new secondary, no idea. I would like to think I wouldn't. But really who knows.

geminigirl

04-28-2010, 04:58 PM

I'd say "not necessarily" because jealousy can stem from so many differing causes. In a well-established, longterm primary relationship there can be more trust and better communication and therefore less need for jealousy, for example. Newer relationships that are still experiencing NRE can be more prone to some types of jealousy stemming from insecurity and uncertainty about the stability of the relationship.

On the other hand, someone who is comfortable with not having a primary may be better equipped to handle jealousy when it happens, and have fewer problems with this so it might "look" like they are less jealous overall. I think ultimately jealousy is more of an internal issue and less related to relationship style and structure than it is to how well a person knows themselves and handles stress, uncertainty and fear in their life.

*Edited to clarify that I have actually experienced both situations/poly styles (ie. as part of an established, longterm couple and as a "single" person dating multiple people but not having a primary of my own. :)

Derbylicious

04-28-2010, 06:15 PM

I've really only ever been involved in poly from the standpoint of being part of a couple. What I do know though is that compersion comes much easier for me in already established relationships rather than relationships that are newly starting up. I think maybe it comes down to being comfortable with what is already known in contrast to the fear of the unknown.

-Derby

Marco

04-28-2010, 08:12 PM

redsirenn

04-28-2010, 11:47 PM

... There are a few people in my life that are becoming very supportive about mine and O's blossoming relationship when they were not so before.

One of them is my sister - conservative in her own right.

She called me today, and was talking about guys she is/ had dated, and how she hates the feeling of jealousy she has towards them dating or spending time with someone else (after they broke up or stopped dating - she is not poly). I got the chance to talk to her about jealousy and how it can be looked at as a symptom of another problem, like insecurity.

It was wonderful talking to her about this! I love knowing that the small steps I make in my life can be helpful to those I love! I feel that this new insight might just help her in many aspects of her life.

RS

idealist

04-29-2010, 04:19 AM

I would THINK, that in a situation where there is a primary couple, there would be more jealousy within that couple as opposed to someone who has no primary. Is jealousy lower in this latter group do you think?

I agree with YGirl, GeminiGirl and Derby...they all made good points. It's a hard question to answer. It seems like if a person is in a "couple" and they are sharing a home, they might tend to be more possessive and prone to jealousy......because the threat of losing their partner might create anxiety since their daily home life would be affected. But as a single person who lives alone, the ending of a relationship wouldn't really affect your home life, therefore you might not be as anxious about it!?!?!?

That seems to be logical....but I don't think it's very valid. Emotions aren't logical and they don't neccessarily follow logic.

I'll just talk about my experiences.
I haven't experienced a lot of jealousy in my life and I don't really know why. Also, none of the people I have been in relationships with have expressed any jealousy that I can remember (except one and he expressed it immediately....we only dated 8 months) So anyway......I just started the poly lifestyle! :eek: Uh Oh...... I guess I better hang on for the ride!!!

SchrodingersCat

04-29-2010, 05:47 AM

I think this is an important place to emphasize the distinction between jealousy and envy.

In a committed relationship, you have more to lose, so there's more opportunity to feel jealousy. And because ideally, a person wants their partners to be happy and fulfilled, so they may be more likely to feel compersion rather than envy.

In casual relationships, you're more likely to see your lovers out and about with their other lovers, especially if you all have overlapping social circles, and this can create an opportunity for envy. I suppose there's also an opportunity for jealousy, in that you may be in a casual relationship with someone and you see them growing a stronger relationship with one of their partners, which may "push" you out a little bit, leaving less time for you.

I guess "opportunity" isn't exactly the right term, unless you choose to take ownership for those emotions and conquer them, thus making it an opportunity for growth.

DrunkenPorcupine

04-29-2010, 06:16 AM

I don't have many relationships to extrapolate from personally, but my experience is actually the OPPOSITE of your assumption, redpepper.

When I opened up to poly, I was married and mono for years. My wife was more assertive in finding partners than I was. It was a little awkward at first figuring out how we related to each other and what we related to each other. But that awkwardness wasn't jealousy for me. In fact, I don't really think I have ever been jealous of my wife or one of her partners given the long, committed relationship with her.

However, when I entered a V, I found that I was jealous and envious more frequently. With my wife, I didn't need assurances that I was still important in her life. It was pretty clear where we stood with each other. In the V, there was ranking and deferring that made me unsettled.

I'm pretty sure you won't find hard and fast rules to the types, reasons for, or amounts of jealousy among the different shapes of relationships. I think, like all relationships, it depends entirely on the people in them.

ksandra

04-29-2010, 06:58 AM

In a committed relationship, you have more to lose, so there's more opportunity to feel jealousy. And because ideally, a person wants their partners to be happy and fulfilled, so they may be more likely to feel compersion rather than envy.

I think it's the opposite. When you're in a committed relationship you know where you stand or else to me it's not necessarily a committed relationship so there is less inclination to feel jealous and perhaps more inclination to feel threatened because, as it's been said, you have more to loose if things go awry. In my experience I feel jealous when I don't know where I stand with a partner so newer relationships where there hasn't been as much communication have more of a tendency to evoke jealousy in me.

Ariakas

04-29-2010, 03:37 PM

I guess these answer show how different jealousy is for everyone, at least in function :)

polytriad

04-29-2010, 04:36 PM

I'ma have to go with yes. There has to be different levels of jealousy. Of course, I'm speaking from a couple's standpoint. The whole process of 'opening up' my monogamous marriage was flooded with jealousy. From long-term Monogamy to Polyamory is a drastic change in mindset and I can't imagine a person who is single to experience the same insecurities.

I second this.

My wife's girlfriend just admitted that she gets jealous when my wife and I are intimate, not only because that is her girlfriend but also because she has feelings for me too but cant be with me at the moment. but I also see my wife being jealous because Nikki (her girlfriend) and I have a stronger connection then they do because Nikki and I have been friends for a years. I actually knew Nikki before I knew wifey. Now if we were all in a triad then the jealousy would be as strong because no one would be left out. for example Nikki being jealous that my wifey sits on my lap when I get home from work to greet me wouldnt be in issue because she could also do that when I got home as well. So as a Vee i see more jealousy then a triad

NeonKaos

04-29-2010, 07:55 PM

I second this.

My wife's girlfriend just admitted that she gets jealous when my wife and I are intimate, not only because that is her girlfriend but also because she has feelings for me too but cant be with me at the moment. but I also see my wife being jealous because Nikki (her girlfriend) and I have a stronger connection then they do because Nikki and I have been friends for a years. I actually knew Nikki before I knew wifey. Now if we were all in a triad then the jealousy would be as strong because no one would be left out. for example Nikki being jealous that my wifey sits on my lap when I get home from work to greet me wouldnt be in issue because she could also do that when I got home as well. So as a Vee i see more jealousy then a triad

That's the way a lot of people see it in theory but it doesn't always work that way in reality.

Relationships are not like recipes. You can't just mix a list of ingredients and bake at a certain temperature to get the results you want.

Marco

04-30-2010, 09:02 PM

@Ygirl Lmao at your signature. Maybe it's because threesomes are easier to fall into.

NeonKaos

04-30-2010, 11:19 PM

@Ygirl Lmao at your signature. Maybe it's because threesomes are easier to fall into.

Easier to fall into than what? assholes?

There is a conversation about lube in another thread.

And it was redpepper who first said what I have in my signature.

Marco

05-01-2010, 12:44 AM

Easier to fall into than what?

My bad, I should've clarified. I meant threesomes are probably easier to fall into as opposed to say...a quad.

And it was redpepper who first said what I have in my signature.

Yeah, I seen that. Enjoy your weekend.

LovingRadiance

05-02-2010, 03:16 AM

AWESOME GS!!!!!
Sharing it with the guys.
Thank you!
LR

LovingRadiance

05-02-2010, 03:46 AM

I haven't caught up reading-but wanted to answer the question from my perspective RP.

For me-I RARELY feel jealous or possessive, occassionally "that time of the month" for a few minutes to a couple hours. But not every month. It's rare.

I can be quite territorial about my time/space however.

Ironically I'm generally NOT territorial about Maca-protective-but not territorial. IF someone is attacking him, emotionally, physically, whatever, then I do become territorial and aggressively protective of him.

I am more often territorial about GG. It's been that way for as long as I can remember. YEARS.

For me-I don't need to be defensive of my "territory" with Maca-it's defined since we're married and everyone is WELL aware of our relationship.

However with GG it's RARELY known what our relationship to one another is-and so people tend to step where they sure as hell DO NOT BELONG. Most often in the "well she's JUST a friend so why does her opinion matter?" type bullshit...

redpepper

05-02-2010, 07:45 AM

thanks so much for all these opinions and stories. I learn a lot from everyone here and this thread was no acception.

To me jealousy comes when I am not getting my needs met. Either I am not aware of what they are and need to discover them, or I have not set something up in my life to make sure I have them met. Sometimes I need to really need to look at the root of those needs and get them to the raw basics... as I said in another thread on communication I believe. Everyone has the same needs... to be loved, to love, to have time to oneself, to spend time with those we care about... etc. Usually its one of these basic needs that aren't being met that means I am jealous... It is important to me to not over shadow other peoples needs with my own as it is one of my needs to make sure I don't harm others as best I can. This can be tricky and has meant the end of relationships in the past if I or they are unable to get our basic needs met...

for instance, I had a friend that needed support at a time that I needed support also. She was unable to support me as she demanded from me a lot of attention and support with nothing in return to me. She got very angry with me because I became unavailable to her as I was seeking out my own support. I ended our friendship as I wasn't having my basic need for giving support and receiving support met.

I know that sounds rather clinical, but it helps me to think of things this way so I can move negative situations and people out of my life, or move myself out. Life is too shirt to fuss around with negativity and situations that are unable to resolve at the present time. For me it's best to leave them and see what happens in time, or remove myself.

I thought that perhaps jealousy was more of something that came up for couples who seek out a poly relationship as it seems to come up a lot on here that way, but now that I think about it, I think I agree that it is situational and depends on a great many numbers of factors and has varying levels of depth.

sisterinlove

05-02-2010, 09:08 AM

I also agree that envy, jealousy, territoriality etc. is different from situation to situation, and individual to individual.

More important than the presence of these emotions though is what we do with them.

For myself, when I feel the beginnings of such negative emotions beginning to rear their ugly little heads, I stop, take a step back and examine it and its root cause. Then, after I have analyzed and understood it, I talk about it with my husband. It is my sincere belief that if we talk about these things before they become an issue, it is handled and never becomes a problem.

It is not always easy, as it can be hard for any person to admit what they may see as a failing in themselves, and to face the reactions of those they love.

The reality is, we have all (or at least should all have) gotten into this lifestyle for the same reason...LOVE. Whether it is our love for someone other than our initial significant other (I myself do not use primary, secondary, etc. as to me that denotes an imbalance and pecking order), or because our significant other loves someone else as well and we want the person we love to be happy, or whatever other reasons anyone can come up with, we must never loose sight of the fact that love is our guiding force.

My love for my husband makes his happiness the most important thing in the world to me. This means that I WILL NOT allow negative emotions to get in the way of what we are trying to build. This works for us because my happiness is just as important to him, and we deal with each other honestly, openly, and with complete acceptance of the other. As my husband labeled it, we have a full disclosure agreement in our relationship. And with that full disclosure comes full acceptance.

But then, that is us. Everyone is different. ;)

redpepper

05-02-2010, 05:45 PM

For myself, when I feel the beginnings of such negative emotions beginning to rear their ugly little heads, I stop, take a step back and examine it and its root cause. Then, after I have analyzed and understood it, I talk about it with my husband. It is my sincere belief that if we talk about these things before they become an issue, it is handled and never becomes a problem........

........My love for my husband makes his happiness the most important thing in the world to me. This means that I WILL NOT allow negative emotions to get in the way of what we are trying to build. This works for us because my happiness is just as important to him, and we deal with each other honestly, openly, and with complete acceptance of the other. As my husband labeled it, we have a full disclosure agreement in our relationship. And with that full disclosure comes full acceptance.

This and this! Thanks for saying this... I love when people think like I do ;)

idealist

05-02-2010, 06:39 PM

I'm of the opinion that any given action/thought/feeling is born either of fear or of love.

Sounds like A Course in Miracles rhetoric. Not sure I agree, but it sure sounds good and keeps things in a neat little package. :rolleyes:

LovingRadiance

05-03-2010, 01:49 AM

Sister :)

Yes yes yes. It isn't about what you feel-it's about how you act. We all encounter negative feelings at points in our lives-that doesn't mean we have to be negative people with negative behavior!!

XO

Morningglory629

05-06-2010, 08:22 AM

And I see similar parallels in love & relationships too. At least in how they play out. Sometimes some people have put tremendous effort into themselves. Trying to learn to be a better person. They have become very "lovable". Desirable to be around. Warm and comfortable.
Trying to better be owners & directors of their own time. Made choices that put them in better positions more frequently. More flexibility.

But these are "action" items. Things we put intentional effort into with the expectation of rewards if we pull it off. But sitting back, crying "foul-unfair (envy)", doesn't move us closer to what we want. Only WE can move us closer sometimes. Action.
And yea, sometimes someone flies us there - free ! It happens. The equivalent of the lottery win. It happens !
Well damn ! You lucky bitch/bastard - let me give you a hug ! That's a choice too. I'm a believer in Karma :) And even if I wasn't - it sure makes me feel a lot better.

So it can look like a circle, where we move from acceptance to action and sometimes back around to acceptance. Every day is unique. But if we can be engaged in the process rather than wasting time sitting on the sidelines, the law of averages may work in our favor. All choices.

Thoughts & ramblings............

GS

Great post GS! Loved the whole thing especially the quote above and the bolded thoughts. Going to keep putting one foot in front of the other...more thinking before I act but definitely in an action state of mind! Thanks for your insight!:)

rpcrazy

05-06-2010, 08:02 PM

I'm asking questions in an external perspective and context.

So if you know the difference how does that help? most people are jealous and envious at the same time because jealousy and envy are superficial(or skin-deep) emotions. If my g/f is out with another guy on a romantic date, i'm jealous because she's not with me, and envious because he's with her. They usually go hand in hand, feel equally as horrible, and given psychological observation i'm pretty sure they come from the same place...

Insecurity>
Comes from REAL inadequacy, not just feelings of it.>
That inadequacy comes from both a lack of mental balance, or whatever pieces of the--dichotomy of mental well-being--are missing, and the fear(read: replacement) for whatever is lacking. >
Whatever is lacking comes from childhood conditioning >
The fear comes from the Id

So, again...what exactly does knowing the difference accomplish?
how exactly do you deal with them, once you identify the difference?
Is there a way to deal with them separately?
What do you do when the feelings of jealous and envy return?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Life is like a flowchart. Write it out -gabe

GroundedSpirit

05-07-2010, 12:12 AM

So, again...what exactly does knowing the difference accomplish?
how exactly do you deal with them, once you identify the difference?
Is there a way to deal with them separately?
What do you do when the feelings of jealous and envy return?

Hi RPC,

Well, let me see if I can add any clarity. But this will be a bit of a shortcut and I might suggest you search and read more of this thread and others regarding the difference, how to identify it, and the corresponding actions to go along.

But in a nutshell.....

Jealousy comes from a place of FEAR.
How do you react to fear ?

Envy (short version) comes from a place of greed.
How do you react to greed ?

Do you see the difference now? Not at all the same and as you might see, the actions you would consider taking for one would be distinctly different for each. And inappropriate and unproductive to get reversed.
Make sense ?

How do you deal if & when they resurface ?
Isn't the whole idea of putting time & effort into understanding and mastering our life outlook intended to make us.....a "better" person ?
If we do some of that, can't we feel better about ourself ? More confident ? Less fearful ?
Why would we want to go backwards ?

Same tools. We know how to use them. We get better with experience.

Hope that helps some but keep talking...........

GS

Vexxed

05-15-2010, 05:39 AM

I'm in a relationship with a married woman. I am one of her three partners. I live with her other boyfriend, while she lives nearby with her husband. I feel no jealousy at all when she is with her husband, which is great, because she is with him more than she is with either of us. I'm totally desensitized to her being with him.

When she is with her other boyfriend I do feel negative emotions. They have a date night tomorrow night, and she will be sleeping over. I'm already feeling some anxiety. I knew that I felt insecure when they were together, and felt a little bit of envy, but I never wanted to admit that I felt jealous. I'm starting to admit that I feel jealous.

My reaction is that I feel insecure and inadequate. I don't feel angry about them being together. Some of you may have already read my thread about feeling inferior. He exceeds me in many measurable ways. I'm also interested in a relationship with him myself, but he isn't interested "right now". He says that he is open to the possibility of something evolving between us in the future. Saturday night and Sunday morning will be very intense for me.

saudade

05-22-2010, 08:03 PM

In my experience, a person tends to experience jealousy largely due to some combination of temperament and personal history (and I won't speculate in what ratio!).

My personal experience of jealousy is that I only feel hurt when I am not permitted to express my feelings for someone (ex. one of us is in a mono relationship, or feelings are one-sided). If I'm allowed to be affectionate/loving/in a relationship, as the situation dictates, then I go straight to compersion without a problem. I'm certainly protective, as LR mentioned too, and that comes out as territoriality sometimes (my girlfriend has a boyfriend who's got some growing to do, and he raises my hackles pretty regularly), but I've never experienced actual jealousy in an existing romantic relationship.

There's a few people in my constellation who express similar tendencies with regards to jealousy. They all call themselves poly without hesitation, treat it as a preferred lovestyle, etc. We have a bunch who feel jealousy under more stereotypical circumstances, and so find particular aspects of poly challenging. Many of them express the 'stumbled into this' sentiment: they met one of us and fell in love, and now look what they're doing! (A few of them are now with multiple people themselves.)

Then there's our mono friends, who respect us but insist it's all too much for them. I suppose they're even more jealousy-prone? :confused:

That's how it seems to be within my constellation anyway...

MonoVCPHG

05-25-2010, 07:27 PM

I suppose they're even more jealousy-prone? :confused:

...

I would hazzard a guess they simply love differently then you do and have a different idea of committment.

Jealousy is not the main reason people prefer monogamy in my experience; Thier concept of commitment and singular intimate focus is.

saudade

05-26-2010, 02:40 AM

Mono-- You're right that being mono is primarily about commitment, at least for many people. I wasn't trying to offend; sorry if I did.

That line was mostly idle speculation, following the train of thought in my post, though it was constructed with a few past conversations in mind. (You know that conversation, where a mono friend asks you, the person in a poly situation, for love advice? Ugh.)

MonoVCPHG

05-26-2010, 10:51 PM

Hermes

06-10-2010, 02:50 PM

Hello, everyone. My intro-thingy's in my sig, so I won't bore you here by repeating it. :)

Something that's been bothering me lately is jealousy. Now, my girlfriend's married, and I don't resent her husband at all. I quite like him, as it happens. I had a serious wobble one weekend I was staying over - and she left me to go spend some intimate time with him. Now, while intellectually I knew that she'd come back, and that I was in the same position he had been in all weekend, I still felt a little slighted - like when she was with me she was thinking about being with him (she got a text asking for a cuddle). That bothered me at the time, though that sort of thing never bothered me before or since. It was just that one occasion where she left me for him.

On another occasion, the three of them were away at an even, and a guy (someone I don't know - and I don't think they know that well) gave the two girls a back rub. I didn't have big crazy about that, like I had above, but I did feel a little twang (and felt better when - a few days later - my gf said he'd probably be irritating). I don't know why it bothered me, but it did.

I've never been in a situation in this relationship where I've had to deal with an addition to our numbers. I'm the newest 'lovely' - secondary but not casual. Maybe that was part of it. I think another part is because my social life has slacked off a lot lately, so I've been putting more thought and energy into my relationship. Also, I have quite low self-esteem, so I don't see much chance of me ever adding to my own coterie.

So what about you guys? When you deal with jealousy, is it more with new people or with other staples in the relationship? I'm I still in a time of adjustment, and it'll get a bit easier? What do you think?

GroundedSpirit

06-10-2010, 03:54 PM

Hi Hermes,

It's always useful to be aware (or recall) that true 'jealousy' is a fear triggered reaction. And in the majority of cases, this fear is of the 'unknown' !
We experience situations where we are not in a position of control and outcomes are unknown. Our brains are more than capable of filling in some pretty fantastic (but often highly unlikely) outcomes. Yeeoowwwwcccchhhh !

So understanding this - what are our options ?

1> Become IN the 'know' ! Reserve judgment (or action) until we do have some solid knowledge to go on. Far easier to deal with realities and facts then the wild stuff our brains can come up with :)

2> Realize and accept that the we are NOT the center of the universe and that things will unfold without our control or permission. It is what it is. Focus on building personal strength and flexibility. As evolution has taught us - the flexible and resilient survive. Rigidity is often fatal.
Things are seldom as bad as we first think and we generally have the ability within us to make the best of a less than perfect situation. Practice creative thinking and flexibility.

Remember - Post It Notes were were technically a failed batch of glue. :)

GS

catbird

08-01-2010, 11:30 AM

I'm almost certain this is not a new question at this site. Hope I don't exasperate anyone with old ground.

Seems to me that any adult with an erotic relationship with more than one other has to deal with jealousy sooner or later, no matter how grown up everyone is. There will be problems in someone's heart, and eventually they will come out with them.

I would guess that the polyamorous work hard at overcoming jealousy, or dealing with jealousy in others. You aren't, I would guess, naturally jealous yourselves, or you have conscientiously gotten rid of your jealousy.

Is there a book anyone would recommend on the subject of dealing with your own or someone else's jealousy?

Failing that, I imagine many of you are experts or at least qualified to give advice on the subject. There is not a problem yet in my household. I'm asking for input, it's welcome here. Thanks to all.

Breathesgirl

08-01-2010, 01:10 PM

You will hear visit www.xeromag.com a LOT! It is my favorite site to go to when I have a problem that I'm not ready to share with anyone yet.

jkelly

08-01-2010, 06:50 PM

I'm sure that a number of other people will give good advice or pointers to resources.

Seems to me that any adult with an erotic relationship with more than one other has to deal with jealousy sooner or later, no matter how grown up everyone is.

I suppose there's a way in which that's true. Any adult who relates to another human being is going to have to deal with annoyance, embarassment, frustration, jealousy, etc. sooner or later, no matter how grown up everyone is.

I would guess that the polyamorous work hard at overcoming jealousy, or dealing with jealousy in others. You aren't, I would guess, naturally jealous yourselves, or you have conscientiously gotten rid of your jealousy.

I wouldn't say that I wasn't naturally jealous, or that I have worked on overcoming jealousy, any more than I would say that I wasn't naturally embarassed, or have worked on overcoming embarassment.

I think that there's a really unfortunate tendency to treat jealousy as this big, scary, crippling problem, or as a curable disease. It's really not either of those things; it's an emotion much like any other. Look, it annoys me when my partner doesn't put my CDs back in their cases after listening to them. So I say "Hey, it annoys me when you do that," and put them back the way I like them. If I threw a big fit, threatened to end the relationship, or forbid her from ever listening to my CDs again, everyone would think I was acting like a jerk, and they'd be right! But we give tremendous liscense to people to act like that when the emotion is jealousy instead of annoyance.

Sometimes it can be cathartic to throw fits, I suppose, but I think that for the most part we should expect people to not act out when they're experiencing some emotion they'd rather not be feeling.

catbird

08-02-2010, 04:40 PM

I wouldn't say that I wasn't naturally jealous, or that I have worked on overcoming jealousy, any more than I would say that I wasn't naturally embarassed, or have worked on overcoming embarassment.

I think that there's a really unfortunate tendency to treat jealousy as this big, scary, crippling problem, or as a curable disease. It's really not either of those things; it's an emotion much like any other. Look, it annoys me when my partner doesn't put my CDs back in their cases after listening to them. So I say "Hey, it annoys me when you do that," and put them back the way I like them. If I threw a big fit, threatened to end the relationship, or forbid her from ever listening to my CDs again, everyone would think I was acting like a jerk, and they'd be right! But we give tremendous liscense to people to act like that when the emotion is jealousy instead of annoyance.

Sometimes it can be cathartic to throw fits, I suppose, but I think that for the most part we should expect people to not act out when they're experiencing some emotion they'd rather not be feeling.
Thank you, jkelly. What you say in your post seems very sensible. I've been an actor for forty years and emotions were part of my stock in trade. For them to be so I had to get in touch with them.

Jealousy is a nasty one, though, and a dramatic one but not in any good sense. Seems like maybe it comes up when people haven't been paying attention to something big about their loved ones. And also when people have a sense of ownership they feel is lawful. Or a sense of security they think other people ought to supply.

I realize this is one-sided. Perhaps people ought to remain true to their commitments. But I am starting to think that the idea of commitment is evil. It fails to take into consideration that people are alive, are living, not robots, and we grow and change.

Hope everyone at the site is well! Y'all take care now, hear?

dingedheart

02-11-2011, 08:04 PM

How much is jealousy hardwired into us humans and how much is learned? Is some jealousy factory provided as a way to delineate preference. If not what is its purpose? Thanks D

Ariakas

02-11-2011, 08:18 PM

How much is jealousy hardwired into us humans and how much is learned? Is some jealousy factory provided as a way to delineate preference. If not what is its purpose? Thanks D

Wow that seems like an impossible question.

I feel no jealousy for my wife. In our relationship and our love I feel secure.

I felt jealousy with my gf near the end of our relationship. Because I felt insecure. I was not jealous before that. It was made worse by me trying to fist fight it into submission instead of just letting it happen and accepting it for what it was.

Jealousy for me is completely based on the environment I sit in. Well so far. I don't like absolutes, since... anything can change.

MonoVCPHG

02-11-2011, 09:06 PM

How much is jealousy hardwired into us humans and how much is learned? Is some jealousy factory provided as a way to delineate preference. If not what is its purpose? Thanks D

Anyone with kids can see jealousy in them from the earliest age. They squabble over toys and thier parents affection. I think it is a normal survival instinct that is based on scarcity...thinking there will not be enough to go around and therefore trying to horde things.

FlameKat

02-11-2011, 10:44 PM

Anyone with kids can see jealousy in them from the earliest age. They squabble over toys and thier parents affection. I think it is a normal survival instinct that is based on scarcity...thinking there will not be enough to go around and therefore trying to horde things.

this rang a bell in my mind :D (hasn't happened much lately - thanks Mono :D)

would it be fair to then, as parents, take responsibility for assuring (and reassuring) our children that there IS enough to go around.... and then when there isn't (i.e time/resources) that that is okay and alright and not something to be afraid of, that more will come?

with this thinking - it would also be our responsibility as the parent of our own inner child, to also reassure ourselves that we are okay, and alright and everything will be fine. To take action if it is necessary but to otherwise, let (whatever it is) it be?

nycindie

02-11-2011, 10:48 PM

I think jealousy is learned. In a culture that is more communal and not focused on a scarcity-abundance dichotomy, where competition is healthy and meant to be a learning tool, I believe jealousy may not exist at all.

There is also another thread where several articles about jealousy were cited and/or pasted. Maybe that one could be moved and combined here with this thread:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5779 (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5779)

MonoVCPHG

02-11-2011, 11:27 PM

this rang a bell in my mind :D (hasn't happened much lately - thanks Mono :D)

would it be fair to then, as parents, take responsibility for assuring (and reassuring) our children that there IS enough to go around.... and then when there isn't (i.e time/resources) that that is okay and alright and not something to be afraid of, that more will come?

with this thinking - it would also be our responsibility as the parent of our own inner child, to also reassure ourselves that we are okay, and alright and everything will be fine. To take action if it is necessary but to otherwise, let (whatever it is) it be?

Yes..it is our responsibility to do this. Even animals show signs of possible jealousy. Dogs compete for food and will try to eat everything..because they are instinctively preparing for scarcity. I think that is natural to any species..but I am no biologist. Children display this behavior almost automatically..they also go through a phase of hitting to get what they want from others, biting and crying. I don't see these as learned behaviors but as a part of our biological make up. A babies cry is not learned...it's a biologically programmed tool to get what they need. I see jealousy as a part of our make up as that....an emotion like anger, sadness, happiness and fear. But..I'm no biologist :)

There are things that we could die from...food is a need that if scarce can cause death. Some people see love as a need..but would we die if it was scarce for a while? I doubt it.

MonoVCPHG

02-11-2011, 11:34 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jealousy

Jealousy is an emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values, such as a relationship, friendship, or love. Jealousy often consists of a combination of emotions such as anger, sadness, and disgust. It is not to be confused with envy.
Jealousy is a familiar experience in human relationships. It has been observed in infants five months and older.[1][2][3][4] Some claim that jealousy is seen in every culture;[5][6][7] however, others claim jealousy is a culture-specific phenomenon.[8]
Jealousy as an emotion – or the impact of jealousy – has been a theme of many novels, songs, poems, films and other artistic works. It has also been a topic of interest for scientists, artists, and theologians. Psychologists have proposed several models of the processes underlying jealousy and have identified factors that result in jealousy. Sociologists have demonstrated that cultural beliefs and values play an important role in determining what triggers jealousy and what constitutes socially acceptable expressions of jealousy. Biologists have identified factors that may unconsciously influence the expression of jealousy. Artists have explored the theme of jealousy in photographs, paintings, movies, songs, plays, poems, and books. Theologians have offered religious views of jealousy based on the scriptures of their respective faiths.

redpepper

02-12-2011, 12:03 AM

Yes..it is our responsibility to do this. Even animals show signs of possible jealousy. Dogs compete for food and will try to eat everything..because they are instinctively preparing for scarcity. I think that is natural to any species..but I am no biologist. Children display this behavior almost automatically..they also go through a phase of hitting to get what they want from others, biting and crying. I don't see these as learned behaviors but as a part of our biological make up. A babies cry is not learned...it's a biologically programmed tool to get what they need. I see jealousy as a part of our make up as that....an emotion like anger, sadness, happiness and fear. But..I'm no biologist :)

There are things that we could die from...food is a need that if scarce can cause death. Some people see love as a need..but would we die if it was scarce for a while? I doubt it.I am with Mono on this. Jealousy to me is to do with belonging and the sense of it... "do I belong? I seem to now be... what is going on?!!! (fear) Maybe I don't! :(:eek:" something like that... I don't know if that is learned so much as put on us as kids. New sibling=jealousy kind of thing. Same questions asked I would think.

MonoVCPHG

02-12-2011, 12:15 AM

FlameKat

02-12-2011, 02:08 AM

I think scarcity is what it is all about. When it comes down to love, we are on the hook to figure out if there is enough based on our own criteria of what "scarcity" is; for some people that could be measured in the amount of touch, time, or words of affirmation. As a person giving love I think we have the responsibility to show that there is enough..to be genuine in letting someone know they have plenty of love through whatever means works as a valid form of communicating...sex, acts of service, words, etc. Merely knowing we love someone is not necessarily enough for that person to feel loved.

Just want to quickly diverge somewhat off topic here - as have had a theory bubbling away since last night... still in its infancy but here goes...

Some time back we all posted on the love languages thread - mine is Physical touch, WW's is physical touch...

My own need for physical touch is higher than WW's... BUT... I have a tendency, to get 'all touched out' and need time in my own space with NOTHING and NOONE asking anything of me - this would create a 'scarcity' at times??

Anyway... the point I am trying to make here - is we have a couple here, poly/mono in which the poly member has a NEED to communicate their love via physical touch... If the mono member is also a physical touch communicator - there would be a natural conflict as their primary NEED for love communication is shared (in their perception - remember the mono NEED for exclusivity) and at times scarce...

this is not to say we are unable of expressing and 'hearing' love communication in other ways... simply saying that it creates a natural perception of scarcity for the mono member, which would cause the jealousy/hording instinct to kick in???

Okay - there you have it - very badly expressed... but I think it's mostly understandable :p

I wonder if any other of the poly/mono couples out there (that come into conflict regularly on one topic) have matching primary love languages?

without meaning to single you out, but given the recent posts - Mono/RP - I know Mono's love language is physical touch - is RP's also??? (Only asking as this may be another way to look at the issues for both of you) *backing way off again :p

even without both members having the same love language as primary if the mono member has physical touch as their primary I think it would be highly likely for jealousy to arise over physical intimacy with another partner, along with corresponding jealousies for the other love languages...

okay shoot my theory down :D

MonoVCPHG

02-12-2011, 02:19 AM

simply saying that it creates a natural perception of scarcity for the mono member, which would cause the jealousy/hording instinct to kick in???

I'm not sure about that..if I look at myself as an example, I encourage and try to promote greater intimacy between Redpepper and PN/Derby. I often feel as though I have too much touch compared to others...I don't feel like a horder. Hmmm..more thought on that one is needed..off to play Monopoly with the family! Ironic hunh...monopoly:p

LovingRadiance

02-12-2011, 03:03 AM

Our love languages don't match, BUT-both guys are physical touch.

I've always thought that alone might be part of why there's more "possessiveness" of sex on their part than mine.
It's NOT my love language, so there isn't a sense of "need" for that in order for me to feel loved...

:confused:

redpepper

02-12-2011, 03:46 AM

Jwithout meaning to single you out, but given the recent posts - Mono/RP - I know Mono's love language is physical touch - is RP's also??? (Only asking as this may be another way to look at the issues for both of you) *backing way off again :pThanks for asking! That is a very good question and an interesting way of looking at it. Scarcity and love language as it relates to jealousy... hmmmm? I would have to think more about it. There is something to be said their for us I think.:)

redpepper

02-12-2011, 04:58 AM

http://www.planetwaves.net/jealousy.html an interesting and helpful site on jealous.

FlameKat

02-12-2011, 09:25 AM

I'm not sure about that..if I look at myself as an example, I encourage and try to promote greater intimacy between Redpepper and PN/Derby. I often feel as though I have too much touch compared to others...I don't feel like a horder. Hmmm..more thought on that one is needed..off to play Monopoly with the family! Ironic hunh...monopoly:p

Mmmmm I understand that... If I may expand on my thought somewhat...

You have mentioned many times that you have made it essential to your own wellbeing in the relationship that PN (who came before you) and RP's relationship does not suffer (whether because of you or not - you will facilitate their relationship for your own sanity basically) *yes badly worded :p so therefore I would discount that in the workings of this theory as maintaining the status quo... or that their relationship is part and parcel of the foundations of your own relationship with RP

Derby - is female and while there may have been some turmoil over her introduction... she is different and provides something you can't (in the view she is a female lover and you cannot become that ever)... so possibly the subconscious perception is you are not missing out on something because it is not something you could give or receive?? *again badly worded

Leo, on the other hand, (or any other male in the future) is an entirely different kettle of fish... he is newer than you, he is the same sex as you, therefore the subconsciously perceived possibility is there that he would 'steal time/affection/touch-time' (as relates to another thread on here where one partner 'uses up' their sexual need with one partner regularly before returning to the 'missing out' partner)

And while your conscious thoughts may be that you receive more than your share of RP's physical touch/time etc - maybe your subconscious is quite pleased with that situation and highy resistant to anything which may reduce that or threaten it (even if you don't consciously perceive it as a threat)

*Please - I am NOT suggesting that this IS the case... but the possibility is interesting and if it were I would think it would be buried quite deeply*

now my head is spinning quite nicely :D hopefully someone can follow that and tell me if I am completely off my rocker with this theory :p

MonoVCPHG

02-12-2011, 05:00 PM

redpepper

02-12-2011, 09:17 PM

I had a thought about jealousy and the times when I have felt it... I have noticed that sometimes I feel dismay and desperate that someone has something I don't and I want it so bad that it hurts... jealousy right? Other times though I display the same reaction, but it is more of a gut reaction. I don't want something, but my gut is telling me something isn't right... this isn't jealousy, but in poly we quite often refer to it as such... maybe looking at it as a gut reaction is a different way of thinking of it. It could be that the person isn't a good fit (for my gut) or that the situation isn't right (for my gut) or that I am struggling with other issues or that I missed some information because it wasn't given to me, or it was misplaced in commotion... all this is not jealousy to me. Why do we call it so in poly?

@Flamecat- I appreciate your attempts to figure Mono out. I love that you are interested rather than judgemental. The approach is refreshing and welcomed. Also very helpful... I wanted to just add that I have actually known Leo just as long as Mono. Actually a few weeks longer. Because of circumstances I didn't get together with him. We became friends instead. His wife a friend of PN. We didn't put that together for a couple of months actually! We both had new friends and then realized the two were married to each other. Because I had started something with Mono and it was all very intense and NREish, I didn't pursue anything with Leo, instead we moved slowly into loving one another, each others partners and kids... spent time all together and then jokingly started having weekly non-sexual dates. We called it non-sexual wife swapping for a bit as PN dated his wife. It worked for us. PN didn't progress in the love/initmate way... I did with Leo.

In order to understand Mono one would have to be here I think. He is very mono. What can I say. Mono, mainstream and conservative. What the hell I am doing with him I don't know as I am so not. Our values are vastly different and our goals are too. He has no desire to change who he is for anyone and neither do I. End of story. I have no idea where this will lead. He is not jealous, he is just himself. Perhaps its his gut, which is what I have indicated above for myself also in times when PN has dated people I just don't have a good feeling about.

Of course this leads into who's right it is to project their gut feelings on others. I get that too and all I can say is that no news is good news right now. We work steadily forward and are talking, going inward and checking EVERYTHING out. Bit by bit :)

FlameKat

02-12-2011, 11:13 PM

Thanks for asking about Leo Flamekat. Sorry to say that the concerns you mentioned play no part in it for me. I am completely fulfilled and maybe even overfilled in those areas.the only concern I have is my loss of intimate connection towards RP....not the loss of anything from her.

Hmm... I still think my point is valid - as there is a loss involved that is directly correlated to the physical intimacy RP shares with someone else.

(I couldn't care less whether that boundary is 'right' or 'wrong', the boundary exists - my goal is to understand why it exists, because without that understanding it will always be (for me in my situation - and possibly RP) a struggle to accept and stay in line with that boundary - For myself, it is a simple issue of once I understand something - I can then make a decision myself based on full knowledge. Rather than working on blind faith that I am being restricted by someone else for a good reason. for me it is a control thing from my side - If I am not going to do something I want to do, out of respect for someone else - I need to understand why... the depth of understanding I require directly correlates to the depth of need/connection I am being restricted from...)

*again badly worded*

@RP I understand what you are saying. Simply wish to also point out that while Leo may have been known longer - the depth of the relationship, and the addition of physical intimacy to it, is what is 'newer' if you will.

I very much apprecate that you both appreciate I am curious and trying to understand something that has applications and implications for my own situation - not trying to put you guys on the spot at all, and certainly not trying to interfere...

I will, however, let the matter drop as I am sensing you guys need some space again on this... good luck and I hope I haven't stirred the pot at all, and I do apologise for using your current issue as an example in this...

MonoVCPHG

02-13-2011, 05:22 AM

Hmm... I still think my point is valid - as there is a loss involved that is directly correlated to the physical intimacy RP shares with someone else.

You are truly a respectful and caring person Flamekat...If I told you the idea/image of Redpepper with another man besides PN simply flips a switch within me would that make any sense? There are other factors, which are not of real importance to this forum as they are external and things that I have already discussed, but the core of the issue is how the stream of my sexual energy simply shuts off. I find it hard to explain in more in depth because it is automatic and not something I fully understand. It's like looking at something that has a primal switch...like wanting to protect a child you see being abused....you don't think, your instincts just kick in and you feel something.

It's not disgust in seeing her with another man..we've had threesomes so the whole "OMG another penis was in her mouth!" thing isn't much of a factor...although the thought of another man kissing her or her touching them is an immediate turn off..not in the "holy shit that's gross" sort of way, but in the flipping of a switch sort of way. One second I want her, the next I don't. It's weird I know. In those moments I revel in our friendship but don't feel intimate desire at all. My intimate connection with her simply ceases to be but my appreciation of her friendship blooms. As I have mentioned numerous times, if I am not intimately connected to some one I can barely get it up. I would have a better chance getting it up with a complete stranger because I would not see them as a person I care about, but as someone just to masturbate inside of....and frankly I get off better alone than if I am with someone I don't love.

I will always love Redpepper...that's for sure. How that love is expressed throughout the years may or may not change. We're family for the long haul regardless.

Redpepper also touched on some very real and yet basic things. We desire different things out of relationships. She seeks a greater openness that transcends gender and I do not. We will carry on, see what happens and who knows what will happen...but we'll keep you informed :D

Thanks for all your thought provoking questions Flamekat. You're right, sometimes we need a break from repeatedly going over the same things. I see the constant questioning of my boundaries as a quest to change who I am wrapped up in words like growth and moving forward (massive trigger to someone who doesn't see having an open relationship as a sign of personal growth...blasphemy I know :eek:). I am working on not allowing questions to trigger me..and the way you ask seems genuine and without malice.

Thanks again :)

FlameKat

02-13-2011, 06:57 AM

@Mono...

*picture a very small woman (also with red hair :p) jumping on the spot, kicking the dirt "Gosh darn it... there goes all my hopes of understanding this phenomenon" :p

LOL... ah well, back to the drawing board :D

your description sounds similar - not the same - but similar to what WW describes. I remain hopeful that one day he will be able to stretch that boundary.

Thank you very much for making the effort to put that into words - particularly for clarifying that there is no disgust factor there - I am not sure if that is a factor for WW, I do hope not - although disgust is something that might be worked on better than a switch?

MonoVCPHG

02-13-2011, 07:01 AM

although disgust is something that might be worked on better than a switch?

If it was only that easy! I've put most of the main threads that deal with my relationship on my profile page. There are some that really go into more depth about how I work and my boundaries. I figured I would put them there as most of the boundary questions are answered within them.

Small women with red hair....Meeeeowwww!!!

dingedheart

02-13-2011, 08:31 PM

The reason I posted my questions on friday was the natural reaction for people to see jealousy as the root cause behind most discomfort. More or less the default negative emotion. This got me thinking about the concept of negative emotions. Right now I can't think of another emotion... sadness, guilt, anger that get the same dismissive response that jealousy gets. For women its the phrase "is it your period " for men its their "egos" and for small children its" hunger or lack of sleep." For the elderly its diminished mental ability. From very early we have all heard " oh your just jealous" and that may be true more offen than not, however there maybe more complex things going on here in terms of poly type relationships.

I dont think its possible for humans to have an emotion that was made up from our experiences. If that were possible the list would become end list. When I ask how much is learned I now think we must have baseline emotions that are shaped by childhood and other experiences. Just thinking of the images of those huge orphanages in china or russia or where ever that have 100 infants and three or 4 adults to care for them. Those children are said to have numerous emotional and psychological problems.

Mono, Have to agree with your early statements about children and I'll go a step further in regards to animals. I know for a fact if I start wrestling with kid the dogs want in on the action. Also back when wife and I cuddle up our one dog had to try to get in on it as well. I'm sure other dog owners and perhaps cat owners have had similar reactions??? Now I don't know anything about the emotions of animals so I don't know if that is what I'm seeing or not. Next time in the company of a vet I hope I remember to ask.

If you look at other emotions you can see the purpose... sadness contrast of being happy. Sadness feels bad strive for happiness..or without so sadness we never know how good happiness and joy feel? Guilt same thing. guilt feels bad so the behavior which caused the guilt should be avoided. But jealousy is not as easy, or is it?"

greeneyes

02-13-2011, 08:44 PM

I'm not going to say that I've never exhibited jealousy in our relationship prior to my partner's decision to change things. I have had issues with a couple of her x's that I'm pretty sure we *still* haven't resolved.

But now that things have changed... I don't know. I never was bothered with her hanging out with other women before. Now I get all worked up and paranoid over situations that didn't bother me previously. I guess that's a natural part of things. Is talking those feelings out with her the thing to do? Should I talk with someone else? It's not easy to find someone in RL who can empathize, honestly. Folks don't understand nonmonogamy, they don't understand when you are trying to deal with jealousy and not just "ban" certain types of behaviors in your partner.

When I talk about my issues with jealousy it seems to be very upsetting for my partner. I don't want to be passive-aggressive either, though, and I know myself well enough to know that when I don't talk directly about emotions, concerns, and pain that I'm feeling it will come out as passive-aggression (I am a southern lady. We're the world leaders in passive aggressive love war, after all.)

Meh. I want to cry. I feel so stupid.

dingedheart

02-13-2011, 09:20 PM

hey Greeneyes do you actually have green eyes or do you see yourself as jealous all the time??? Kidding

I can understand wanting to cry.... but I think you should never feel stupid for having these feelings. Give yourself a little break. This stuff seems very hard for a lot of people.. I put myself at the top of don't get it list. I however at this moment I don't feel stupid, maybe I should.... but not yet. Redpepper had mentioned the idea of " gut feelings" maybe we should all listen and be guided by that principle a little more. Good luck D

greeneyes

02-16-2011, 11:58 AM

hey Greeneyes do you actually have green eyes or do you see yourself as jealous all the time??? Kidding

Weellll.... the handle is a bit of a double entendre. Just trying to be as honest about myself as I can be anonymously ;-P

We had a very long talk today about things. I don't know exactly where we are headed from here... but we did discuss possible unfixable gaps in compatibility. I do have a better idea of where things are, so there's that. At this point I don't want to stop being partners with my partner, and I don't know for sure if I want to "open myself up," either.

I am not philosophically or ideologically against non-monogamy; I really don't think that I am "hard-wired" a certain way. I just don't know if I want to wipe the software, or install new software, or what. I actually "get" non-monogamy in an intellectual sense. It's the visual clues, the fears, the pre-emptive "missing" of regular and mundane things that I am worried will go away. Tonight she was making popcorn in her PJ's and I nearly cried, because I wonder how long we will have nightly cuddle sessions on the couch with popcorn. :o

It kind of feels like something died. Melancholy. :: shrugs ::

LovingRadiance

02-16-2011, 01:17 PM

I
@Flamecat- I appreciate your attempts to figure Mono out. I love that you are interested rather than judgemental. The approach is refreshing and welcomed.

In order to understand Mono one would have to be here I think. He is very mono. What can I say. Mono, mainstream and conservative. What the hell I am doing with him I don't know as I am so not. Our values are vastly different and our goals are too.

It is refreshing. I enjoy talking about all of the different pieces of people's differences, but it's not enjoyable when it becomes a judgmental person bashing. I've enjoyed reading what you ask Flamecat, because you don't go there. :)

As for Mono-RP my dear, I get him. He's so much like Chris in those ways. I get it very well. I've been living with "one of those" for nearly 10 years! ;)

It's all good Mono-there's room for each one of us unique individuals!

MonoVCPHG

02-16-2011, 02:47 PM

It's all good Mono-there's room for each one of us unique individuals!

And that is why I love you LR!...errrr in a non-romantic, non-sexual, hands off, platonitc sort of way :o But if I was poly ;)

FlameKat

02-16-2011, 03:12 PM

It is refreshing. I enjoy talking about all of the different pieces of people's differences, but it's not enjoyable when it becomes a judgmental person bashing. I've enjoyed reading what you ask Flamecat, because you don't go there. :)

As for Mono-RP my dear, I get him. He's so much like Chris in those ways. I get it very well. I've been living with "one of those" for nearly 10 years! ;)

It's all good Mono-there's room for each one of us unique individuals!

Thank you - both of you - I do try to be as unbiased and non-judgemental as I can - particularly with these subjects as they can be so personal and easily trigger off people...

That and I am, and have always been, of the view that it takes all kinds and that we are all here for a reason... learning being the main one :D Our differences are what make us all so special... understanding those differences is, to me, what makes everything worthwhile...and being understood is even better than that :D

And for the record - I think I do get Mono - just as I get WW... the concepts of 'why' they are the way they are is where I fall down and need to learn more for my own understanding... but otherwise yeppers - awesome people all of you and I count you all among my friends... and I don't judge friends :D

LovingRadiance

02-16-2011, 03:18 PM

And that is why I love you LR!...errrr in a non-romantic, non-sexual, hands off, platonitc sort of way :o But if I was poly ;)You silly silly man! :)

awesome people all of you and I count you all among my friends... and I don't judge friends :D

Ditto. :D

MonoVCPHG

02-16-2011, 03:26 PM

awesome people all of you and I count you all among my friends:D

Double ditto..just to one up LR :rolleyes:

FlameKat

02-16-2011, 03:42 PM

Double ditto..just to one up LR :rolleyes:

Well just to round it out and triple ditto it I repeat myself: Awesome peoples and I count you all my friends *monster hugs*

LOL... bunch of goofballs... anyone else wanna join the lovefest (platonic lovefest of course :p) happening here?:rolleyes:

louise101

03-11-2011, 12:49 PM

I read a piece about jealousy (another site). It made me think...

I have been jealous, not green with envy, angry, jealous... but jealous nonetheless. What I read is everything my brain has already known. My husband and I have been together for 15 years, married for 13. I know we have a rock solid foundation. I know he isn't going to up and leave me and our family. I know that we are the most important people in his life. I know that he loves me and isn't replacing me. I know he can love more than one woman and that doesn't diminish the feelings he has for me.

That's what my brain knows.

Now, can we please find a way for my brain to communicate this to my heart?

When it comes to jealousy, it is not my brain that has problems comprehending the nature of our marriage and relationships. It is my heart. My heart gets jealous and lonely.

I have found that keeping busy, doing other things, really helps to take my heart's emotions and keep them in check. When I am thinking about other things (whether it is a new crochet pattern or studying for the bar exam), my heart doesn't have a chance to react. But can I really keep that busy all the time?

No, I don't have to keep that busy that much. As time passes, my brain is slowly communicating with my heart... ever so slowly the jealousy in my heart is waning, it's disappearing. It's not completely gone yet and there are times when it comes back with a vengeance... but it is not as strong as those first few days. And I think part of that is having a place to talk about these emotions and concerns and feelings.

Talking (whether actually talking or typing it out on the forums) forces me to confront my heart on the irrational fears it has. Having a place to talk makes my brain communicate with my heart... my heart is learning all that my brain already knows.

Anyone else experience the brain/heart divide? What do you do to overcome it?

shakespeare147

03-11-2011, 01:20 PM

I know exactly what you mean, rationally reasoning things out about the situation but even then still having trouble with tough feelings.

I don't know the answer, exactly. I do what you do, occupy myself, make sure I'm with friends or doing something fun when my partner is out with other people so that I don't negatively fixate on it.

And I bet there's something about how important it is to acknowledge the feelings you have and just let yourself experience them; repression never helps.

I think there's something special about being able to live in your feelings and not bolt out of the situation or drive yourself nuts. Sounds like you're on the right track with things. :)

GroundedSpirit

03-11-2011, 04:25 PM

....... As time passes, my brain is slowly communicating with my heart... ever so slowly the jealousy in my heart is waning, it's disappearing. It's not completely gone yet and there are times when it comes back with a vengeance... but it is not as strong as those first few days. And I think part of that is having a place to talk about these emotions and concerns and feelings.

Talking (whether actually talking or typing it out on the forums) forces me to confront my heart on the irrational fears it has. Having a place to talk makes my brain communicate with my heart... my heart is learning all that my brain already knows.

Anyone else experience the brain/heart divide? What do you do to overcome it?

I suspect we all experience this :)

And like you are learning, the final solution is the same as it is for many things.

TIME !

We just have to use the understanding (brain part) to play defense and ride it out until we start to look back (like you are) and realize how far we actually HAVE come !
From there the rest of the pins seem to fall more rapidly.

Keep on keeping on.......

GS

Carma

03-11-2011, 04:58 PM

I just read a book by Susan Forward called "Obsessive Love," and it really gave me some insight. When I think of jealousy (and this is not an emotion I struggle with, very often) I think it has a lot to do with obsessing over another person. I know for me I have to fight codependency issues, or I start to dissolve.

I can see where panic could set in at the thought of losing the love of someone you think you couldn't live without. I am working on the idea that the only person who will be with me till the end of time, is me. No sense glomming onto someone else for my own sense of worth or happiness... Deep down, once you learn to love yourself I think the jealousy feelings can subside. (Wow -- do I love myself? I guess I do!)

I really have no desire to possess another human being. If I love them I have no choice but to keep their freedom at the forefront of my mind. Otherwise they are loving me for less than pure reasons, which can hardly even be called "love" -- obligation, fear, duty, guilt, sympathy, pride ..... No thanks. You are free to love me and you are free to walk away.

I suppose I sound like I'm on a soapbox, I hope not -- this is my personal philosophy and I am not always 100% with it, myself, but it's what I strive for.

nycindie

03-11-2011, 05:05 PM

louise101

03-11-2011, 08:56 PM

I suspect we all experience this :)

And like you are learning, the final solution is the same as it is for many things.

TIME !

We just have to use the understanding (brain part) to play defense and ride it out until we start to look back (like you are) and realize how far we actually HAVE come !
From there the rest of the pins seem to fall more rapidly.

Keep on keeping on.......

GS

Thank you!

This is what I have been trying to tell my husband (I think I need to email him what I wrote). In the past we have never moved past this point where we are now... me trying to work through the emotion of jealousy. That is part of why we stopped seeking another to add to the relationship. We would get so caught up in my jealousy that he would end any relationship before I could work through those issues. I do not want that to happen this time.

I WANT to work through this and given time I will... I already see improvement from last week and the week before that. I just hope that he sees that improvement as well. This forum has been a HUGE help (as well as one other forum I am on).

livsen

04-30-2011, 08:02 PM

Advise needed please!!
My boyfriend and I decided to open up our relationship 6 months ago. (we live together and have been in a relationship for 5 years). At first he was ok with it (I was very frank and asked him how he felt about it) and after a while, found a nice girl whom he spent quite some time with. I`ve found an other guy and he and I, are very compatible as well.
As time has gone by, my boyfriend has gotten more and more resentful to the whole thing and has said that he can´t carry on with this lifestyle - he´s simply too jealous.
Myself, I`m poly and I love this lifestyle very much. Can´t think of going back to the mono-life again. Of course I´m respecting my boyfriends feelings and at this moment we live a mono life again. I feel very tied down and as if invisble strings have been wrapped around my body.
I frankly don´t know what to do. I love my boyfriend SO much and can´t imagine life without him. However I feel as if I`ve lost a huge part of myself and my love of life, if I can never return to poly-life again.
I´ve tried to talk to him about it numerous times, but he won´t listen. He can´t comprehend the fact that I am poly - or he won´t.
Can you please give me some kind advice regarding this.
Can a man ever "learn" to live with and accept the fact that his girlfriend is seeing someone else - overcome his jealousy?
I tell him time and time again, that he´s the man of my life and I want to live and be with him. I try to reassure him the best way possible so he feels secure.
I`m desperate for advise!!
Thank you!!
Charlotte

NeonKaos

04-30-2011, 08:07 PM

Since this is basically a post that says "Help! my partner is jealous! What should I/we do?", I've moved it to the "sticky" thread on jealousy/envy/insecurity. If you want to explore the nuances of jealousy as pertains to the ebb and flow of your relationship, you may go ahead and start a thread that is more specific in scope. The way it is now, the situation you are in is very common and many folks can benefit from such discussion. Perhaps also, you might benefit from reading the earlier posts in this thread.

I also recommend not using your real name in any of your posts unless you're prepared to have it live forever on the interwebz.

MonoVCPHG

05-01-2011, 03:50 AM

Can a man ever "learn" to live with and accept the fact that his girlfriend is seeing someone else - overcome his jealousy?
I tell him time and time again, that he´s the man of my life and I want to live and be with him. I try to reassure him the best way possible so he feels secure.
I`m desperate for advise!!
Thank you!!
Charlotte

Some people can and and some people can't I would imagine. Some people simply aren't compatable as lovers/partners.

I'm not sure telling him "time and time again, that he´s the man of my life" is necessarily very helpful. It might be better to focus on expressing your lifelong committment to him as a partner but not the man of your life. Your words (as I emotionally respond to them as a mono guy) do not coincide with your deisre for other men. It's a mixed signal that could be interpretted as a way to overcompaensate for the fact that you want and need more men in your life.

redpepper

05-01-2011, 05:12 AM

Try doing a tag search for "jealousy" and see what you come up with...this thread is good too! :) Jealousy is indeed one of the biggest, if not thee biggest concern in poly... along with time management.

If he doesn't want to walk through his jealousy and face it to see what it has to offer in terms of personal growth and in order to create a better relationship with you then that is his choice. You might have to move on. There is really nothing you can do if someone is refusing to even talk about it or look at it.

I suppose you could keep reassuring him (I agree that telling him something that is not necessarily the truth just to keep him with you is not a good idea), but eventually he will have to look at it. No reassurance from you alone is going to make it magically go away. There is a reason it is there and it might just be that he does not think poly in any way is a good fit for him. That's fine, but that won't work for you, so you'd have to move on or be mono with him. Likely the latter will be hard as trust would be an issue. It sounds like this is entirely up to him and what he decides. It could be that it is one of the more simple forms of jealousy such as fear of the unknown and adjustment to less time together that means having to have a more independent life. Both really hard to get through, but common.

Minxxa

05-01-2011, 05:34 AM

Interestingly... when you work through your own stuff-- jealousy and other things-- it's a HUGE growth opportunity. For yourself. And considering why you get envious or jealous... and talking about it with your partner(s), and figuring out how to get what you (and your partners) want and still stay sane-- that's HUGE. It creates growth and patterns of communication that affect all aspects of your life.

There are, however, some people who will go with "that's just how I am" and stay there. Unfortunately, there really is nothing you can do with that. At that point you just have to decide what's important to you,what you're willing to deal with and at what point you cut bait.

People have the right to say "I'm not goint to change". They do, however, then have to deal with possibly being left because of that.

NeonKaos

05-01-2011, 10:34 AM

IN a mono relationship jealousy is almost EXPECTED, and it's sometimes even thought that the relationship is "lacking" if both partners are not jealous to some degree. So, most of us are conditioned to the point the jealousy is a way of knowing someone cares about you, and if someone isn't jealous, they don't give a damn.

Could this be what's happening in your case livsen? If so, this is a relatively easy fix - a person just has to WANT to change it. But this type of change usually happens over a period of time, and like redpepper said, just reassuring your partner is not what makes it go away. You have to be honest with yourself and say, "What is REALLY bothering me?" In the end, what is REALLY bothering someone may in fact be that they just not into the poly thing; but this is a poly website so of course we're not going to suggest that you give up that easily.

sage

05-02-2011, 01:02 AM

Hi

To reassure you poly/mono relationships can work but they require both parties to work at it. If your partner is not prepared to do the work maybe he does not get the importance of this to you? Are you prepared to end the relationship over it?

There is a yahoo group dedicated to poly people in relationships with mono partners called livingpolymono. They might be able to help but I think the first thing you have to do is work out whether you are prepared to lose the relationship over this?

I'm a mono in a relationship with a poly partner and maybe it would also be good for you to have a look at my blog. It shows a clear progression from the early days where I was very lost, jealous and hurt, to now where the relationship is working well. It did require a lot of work but we did it and so have others both male and female.

Morningglory629

05-02-2011, 05:36 PM

Just a quick quiz I took today for fun but it was an interesting result for me. thought I would share here as well as on my blog.

http://www.mydailymoment.com/app/quiz/userquiz/takequiz/316?utm_source=DHTMLgoogle-jealous&utm_medium=overcome-jealous-search-2&utm_term=JEALOUSLY%20in%20a&utm_content=quiz&utm_campaign=MULTIovercome-jealous-search-2

ogre

05-05-2011, 04:22 PM

I am in my first poly relationship. There is me , my girlfriend and her other boy friend , mate , lover ( sorry if there is a term that I do not know ) . I find my self at times jealous if she is with him. I was wondering if that is normal ? the main reason for my jealousy is because before my girl friend wanted a ploy relationship they were engaged and things did not work out. Granted it was years ago,they still have that bond .They would have had a child together if it was not for a miscarriage, so they have that bond of losing a child as well. I understand her being in love with more than one person hence our relationship.I feel that if it was any other person I would feel totally different and accepting of their relationship. And would not see him as a threat . Any advise would be greatly helpful .

Morningglory629

05-05-2011, 07:32 PM

Some people can and and some people can't I would imagine. Some people simply aren't compatable as lovers/partners.

I'm not sure telling him "time and time again, that he´s the man of my life" is necessarily very helpful. It might be better to focus on expressing your lifelong committment to him as a partner but not the man of your life. Your words (as I emotionally respond to them as a mono guy) do not coincide with your deisre for other men. It's a mixed signal that could be interpretted as a way to overcompaensate for the fact that you want and need more men in your life.

Interesting observation Mon!

Pooka

05-06-2011, 02:23 PM

for me the trouble is insecurity. although I (after 2 years of discussion) introduced the poly style to my girlfriend, it happened so that (after a few sexual relationships) she found a deep emotional relationship first and we both feel not ready for this. yet there is no return but forward now. so I try to observe her, myself and the situation, and try to learn more from your experiences. this site is great. as I mentioned in my post in "New to Polyamory" thread, I do not feel much jealousy (I even fantasize about watching her) but there is a dreadful fear of abandonment due to the emotional side of her relationship. I cannot comprehend living without her, she says the same to me. I am excited and terrified and hopeful at the same time.

MonoVCPHG

06-08-2011, 01:50 PM

The following is a good documentary that deals with the human desire for sex. The instinct of sexual jealousy is touched on in the end.

http://documentarystorm.com/human-instinct/

GroundedSpirit

06-08-2011, 02:34 PM

The following is a good documentary that deals with the human desire for sex. The instinct of sexual jealousy is touched on in the end.

http://documentarystorm.com/human-instinct/

I didn't care for it.
I feel that it's lacking in a lot of important facts when it tries to portray what is thousands of years of conditioning as "instinctive". Basically it seems to want to portray an unbiased 'scientific' approach but to pick and choose the facts that support the message it wants to convey - one that supports the 'standard model'.

GS

MonoVCPHG

06-08-2011, 03:49 PM

I didn't care for it.
I feel that it's lacking in a lot of important facts when it tries to portray what is thousands of years of conditioning as "instinctive". Basically it seems to want to portray an unbiased 'scientific' approach but to pick and choose the facts that support the message it wants to convey - one that supports the 'standard model'.

GS

While I certainly recognize conditioning as a factor in a lot of areas, I must admit I do often feel it is used as a convenient skapegoat to deny the idea of instinct and natural behavior that does not support how people want to live. But that is the beauty of sharing things like this and our personal thoughts; diversity in opinions and theories.

The following won't be too popular but..... at what point do thousands of years of conditioning become known by another name?

"Evolution (also known as biological or organic evolution) is the change over time in one or more inherited traits found in populations of organisms.[1] Inherited traits are particular distinguishing characteristics, including anatomical, biochemical or behavioural characteristics, that are passed on from one generation to the next. Evolution may occur when there is variation of inherited traits within a population." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

I do heavily favour scientific research when it comes to human emotions and responses. I'm a big fan of brain mapping and anything that can show definitive evidence of what goes on inside us.

Minxxa

06-08-2011, 04:51 PM

I like the research too. I think our thoughts and emotions are way more complicated and interlocking than people give them credit for. There's a combination in our instinctual reactions, reactions based on how we were taught to behave, reactions based on how we actually WERE raised and the examples we saw, reactions based on our experiences we have in life, and reactions based entirely on our own inner personality which is a combination of these things, but also sometimes just "how we are".

MonoVCPHG

06-08-2011, 05:01 PM

but also sometimes just "how we are".

.....and we are all so very different in my opinion. My reality and my truth may not be shared by anyone...finding happiness in that is where I find peace of mind ultimately.

GroundedSpirit

06-08-2011, 05:48 PM

........

The following won't be too popular but..... at what point do thousands of years of conditioning become known by another name?

"Evolution (also known as biological or organic evolution) is the change over time in one or more inherited traits found in populations of organisms.[1] Inherited traits are particular distinguishing characteristics, including anatomical, biochemical or behavioural characteristics, that are passed on from one generation to the next. Evolution may occur when there is variation of inherited traits within a population." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

If I understand where you're going with this correctly (?) you do bring up a valid question.

"When does social conditioning impact living things at a biochemical level that can/will be passed on genetically ?"

In this case, has thousands of years of promoting monogamy actually effected a genetic change that now exists 'naturally' (biochemically) ? I certainly don't have that answer, nor do I think does anyone else. Would be an interesting research project - i.e. a difficult one.

I do base my 'belief' (and that's all it is) on my observation and study of behavior in various environments.

The (one of) test would be to raise a child in an environment where love, affection (and sex) were plentiful and neither hidden nor discouraged - but allowed to flow free-form. Observe for signs of 'jealousy' and note how easy or difficult those 'instincts' were subdued (if needed).

My experience and observations from working with children (as well as raising a handful) is that until some 'outside' influence interferes, as long as things are plentiful (love, affection, shelter, safety, etc), sharing is the default. Only when supply becomes short do you see problems arise with competition. There are exceptions of course - we've all seen them. But some unfortunates are born with cancer - so there's an expectation of a certain variance.

There's a lot of informational discussion circulating in the Abundance vs Scarcity debate/philosophy too. I think there's some relevant crossover there.

But in the end it seems what really matters is a discussion of which philosophy holds the greatest promise for the species as a whole going forward. Not what it is now, or what it has been in the past.

Interesting...........

GS

MonoVCPHG

06-08-2011, 06:44 PM

But in the end it seems what really matters is a discussion of which philosophy holds the greatest promise for the species as a whole going forward. Not what it is now, or what it has been in the past.

Interesting...........

GS

Very interesting indeed.

stargazer23

06-09-2011, 07:10 PM

I don't even try to differ between jealousy and envy...they're both just words that mean nearly the same thing except maybe envy is associated a little more with wanting something specific that another has and jealousy is just a generalized dissatisfaction with the circumstances of someone else having things better than you.

I feel like both are occasionally unavoidable, normal human emotions. What defines character is how you deal with them.

When a lover of mine starts taking time out to love others, will I feel wantful? Will it sting? Maybe at first, but my desire to see that person happy and fulfilled trumps any illogical selfish feelings. My desire for a deep, multifaceted, multi-dimensional compersive love outweighs any desire to cling to childish, one-dimensional reactions. I know in my heart that to keep a lover as a pet in a cage does not please either of us because what you have is a relationship with a set of rules--the cage itself, not its occupants.

With logic and reassurance, the sting will be fleeting and the sexy, happy, excited vibe coming from the beloved (who is realizing his dreams) will fulfill me to the point where I can easily see myself growing to love his others.

I think it's important both for the envious to keep themselves in check and for the others in the relationship to behave in a mature, responsible, sensitive fashion...within reason. Reassurances and making sure everyone gets their needs fairly and reasonably met should be the goal here.

RenegadeOfFunk

06-11-2011, 04:54 PM

Andy

07-13-2011, 01:25 PM

Hello everyone,
My nickname is Chris, I am not a native English speaker therefore I immediately apologise for the possible mistakes you may be finding as you read. I have been in a homosexual monogamous relationship for 3 years. I and my partner are really open-minded, we do not believe in marriage and in monogamy but, despite this, we currently do not have any real intention of practicing poliamory. He is 9 years older than me, so he has experienced sex much more than I did. For this reason he happens to talk to me about the fact that we sometimes should think about and analise what makes us so "monogamous". We claim to be open-minded and free from social schemes but we have never had one night stands or occasional sex. The problem now is that even though I do not believe in monogamy I still cannot get rid of the cultural heritage of the catholic society I come from and, even though I try not to show it, I am a very jealous boyfriend. He always says: "if we were not so hypochondriac and unsociable we would have experienced occasional sex. Because I happened to be willing to try.".
I denied to be interested in one night stands and the image of him being even only attracted by other men disturbs me deeply. I am generally a very insicure person. I try to fight this feeling through rational thinking but a deep and unconscious jealousy overtakes me and obsesses my dreams. I had lots of nightmares on this issue. I know I should probably see a psychologist but I think that here I could find people who can understand the reason why I want to fight against my unconsciuos, deep jealousy better and will not only tell me: "a little bit of jealousy is just normal! Do not worry about it!" And I also do not want to prevent me from experiencing my sexual life differently because of this feeling. I do not want to live the lie of "I love you only and I feel not attracted by anyone else".

Andy

07-13-2011, 01:45 PM

"My nickname is Andy" :D

River

07-13-2011, 02:52 PM

Can we eradicate jealousy?

No. We cannot.

But we can make him our friend, and thereby get to know him well. And in coming to know and understand him well, we will likely find that his fear is insubstantial and unreal -- an illusion, a hoax, a fraud, an imposter.

When we go on the offensive, on the attack, against our feeling-thoughts, we alienate some part of us that wants to be understood, and, perhaps, tranformed. Or healed, even. So make friends with your jealousy. Take him out for lunch or tea.
Sit quietly and listen to him, and gently speak with him. Often. Ask him what he is afraid of, and why. Get to know him very well and shower him with love and affection--, and he may change his mind about you and your life.

Andy

07-13-2011, 03:04 PM

Thanks for these brilliant lines of awareness.

River

07-13-2011, 03:22 PM

You're very welcome! May your heart ever open into its natural beauty, joy and freedom. May its glow touch the world with these qualities of the awakening heart.

Chimera

07-13-2011, 03:41 PM

Can we eradicate jealousy?

No. We cannot.

But we can make him our friend, and thereby get to know him well. And in coming to know and understand him well, we will likely find that his fear is insubstantial and unreal -- an illusion, a hoax, a fraud, an imposter.

I like it that jealousy is a "he" in your post River since so often people in popular culture ascribe it to women :)

I'm sure this point has already been brought up countless times, but there's the flipside to the jealous person. I'm not inclined toward jealousy and have found my lack of it to be an issue even in poly relationships. Just as we work toward understanding jealous feelings, we also need to work on understanding our need for them. That is, why we might feel upset if our SO *isn't* acting jealous. We're also conditioned to interpret jealousy as a way of showing how much we care for the other person, as twisted as that is...

River

07-13-2011, 04:33 PM

Just as we work toward understanding jealous feelings, we also need to work on understanding our need for them. That is, why we might feel upset if our SO *isn't* acting jealous. We're also conditioned to interpret jealousy as a way of showing how much we care for the other person, as twisted as that is...

This is a very good and valuable point! I was just thinking that same thought while making breakfast. Indeed, probably most people in our culture/s conceive the complete absense of jealousy toward their beloved as a lack of genuine love!

We're talking about a radically differing paradigm here, and one that most people are probably quite clueless about.

To monogamous people, very often, we poly folk are conceived as shallow, empty, bankrupt, inauthentic, lacking in real love.... We're thought to be failures, selfish, broken people.

But the poly experience has done nothing but show me how big and wide my authentic heart is! I'm experiencing poly as pure joy and love.:)

Sometimes, my joy almost hurts it is so intense. And the joy is not focussed on any one person, but focussed on my own natural, awakening heart. Ultimately, I love everyone, everything. Discovering this in a bigger way each day overspills me with love and joy.:p

Minxxa

07-13-2011, 05:02 PM

So my husband is not the jealous type at all. He is very happy that I am happy. A concern recently came up... he is out of town right now and knows that I am spending the weekend with my boyfriend. He started to realize that he is jealous of me sleeping in the bed with my boyfriend at night because that was previously something only my husband and I shared. I am trying to find ways of helping him deal with this, but I am at a loss for words. I told him that I love him and that he is amazing and it doesn't mean I am going to love my boyfriend more or my husband less. Anyone have and advice to help me with this situation??? It would be much appreciated.

I realize this is an old message, but I had some thoughts on it anyway, LOL...

I think sometimes we aren't jealous in theory, or at all, until something comes up and we realize it bothers us. There are a lot of ways to deal with it, but seeing as it just came up right now and you two are long distance, perhaps you can find ways to get around it for now, and then talk about it when you two are together and figure out where the jealousy is coming from, and if or how you can both deal with it. Some people have certain things that they retain as just "theirs"... whether that be their family bed, or pet names or whatever. Some don't. That's something you'd need to decide with your husband. Maybe, for now, sleeping together in the family bed is something you don't do. Maybe you never do, or maybe after a while your husband will realize it doesn't bother him.

I think while we all know intellectually some things "shouldn't" bother us, sometimes they do and I don't see anything wrong with taking something off the table for a bit so that someone can work through whatever it is and adjust. You have been reassuring him, and that's fabulous. But maybe taking this one issue off the table briefly will be more reassuring to him. Assuring him that you take his feelings into consideration and won't just do what you want regardless of how he feels. From experience, doing this one thing can go MILES towards making someone feel reassured that their feelings are important and makes it easier to work through them and let them go. I know that for myself, if I feel like no matter what I feel my hubs will do whatever he wants, I feel less valued, less cared for, and in the end it makes it harder for me to feel secure in our relationship enough to work through tough feelings.

Of course, this only works when the partner is being honest, open and really trying to work through things and not using their feelings as a weapon to get you to feel bad (which I'm assuming isnt' the case here). :)

Fiona

09-20-2011, 05:32 AM

My husband and I are each seeing someone right now, and those people are also seeing others. Right now I'm having a hard time of it, though. My husband wants to start dating a second person, and it's a lot more difficult for me to accept than I'd thought. I am very much an introvert, shy around new people, and have just begun to be very comfortable with my boyfriend. My husband, his girlfriend, and my boyfriend are all much more outgoing/gregarious people, and I'm just...not. I rarely make the sort of deep connection that makes me want to date someone. I have been feeling left out and lonely recently. Tonight, my husband is out with his girlfriend and I'm just sad. Not jealous exactly - I really like her and am glad that she makes him happy - but I feel sort of unimportant and alone.

I'm also feeling insecure about my relationship with my boyfriend - he recently broke things off with another person, and to be honest, I would've expected him to be having that conversation with me. He is very sweet, but sometimes I just don't understand what he sees in me.

My husband is amazing and very attentive to our relationship and my feelings, but I can't help feeling this way. I want to be happier, I want to see things in a positive light...but right now I'm just sad and lonely. This isn't rational at all, and I feel like I can't talk to anyone about it. I've never really felt like this before. Help?

lemniscate

09-22-2011, 03:38 PM

To me it seems like what you're really feeling is afraid that you are not as loveable or important as the other folks in your situation rather than jealous per se, because as you say, you like your husband's girlfriend.

First of all, in my opinion, I am sure that there are things your boyfriend and husband see in you, since they are with you, and you seem like a smart kind person, even from this one post, so I'm sure that there are plenty of things about you to love.

My suggestion is to look at your feelings toward yourself irregardless of how the others in your life are treating you or behaving toward you. Do you like yourself? What talents do you have? What have you accomplished? Then look at yourself in regards to relationships; what do you bring to the table? What sorts of things are you good at that your partners appreciate? It seems to me that finding where you fit in with yourself, and then where you fit in with your partners will help you see your role in your group.

I don't know you, but I do know that in most poly relationships that work, everyone has a good role to play, and each person contributes a part that makes the whole. Just by reading your post I pick up that you're thoughtful and caring, and smart! There was nothing hateful or mean in what you said, it just seems like you're being honest about your feelings, and that's a step in the right direction.

Best,

nouryia

09-25-2011, 06:29 PM

Jealousy sucks. Just when I thought I was getting a handle on it, some new situation triggers it. My boyfriend has two full time mates with whom I get along wonderfully. However, he's currently on a little road trip with his male partner and they're planning on being physical with an online friend of his partner, a young kinky minded female.

I really didn't like how I felt when I learned of the trip, it made me insecure and worried. I wondered if she'd be more fun than me, or better in bed. He assured me it was only going to be sex. He has no romantic feelings for her and that I shouldn't worry. He even offered not to go if it made me uncomfortable. But in the end, I told him to go forth, have fun and that I trusted in his love. Now I'm focusing on not thinking about it...just looking forward to his return.

Fiona

09-27-2011, 02:39 PM

Thank you for your thoughtful responses; I appreciate getting others' perspectives on situations like this. I haven't been feeling loveable or important; this has only been exacerbated by the conversation I had with my boyfriend last night, after not seeing him for two weeks (story for another time.) Now I'm just sad and upset; I'm not sure that things with my boyfriend are going to work out, and I'm kind of afraid of that, as my husband is dating one person and about to start seeing another. I've been feeling lonely anyway, and this isn't helping.

SchrodingersCat

02-04-2012, 08:54 AM

I've been using the "standard poly definitions" of jealousy vs envy for quite some time:
jealousy = fear of losing something you have
envy = wanting what someone else has

But I just found an old forum post (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9653&postcount=10) where someone dragged up a dictionary definition. Usually I pooh-pooh dictionary definitions when applied to poly stuffs... but in this case, I felt like reopening a discussion on it, since "jealousy" is a common human emotion and it's helpful if everyone means the same thing when they use those words.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jealousy (similar to m-w also)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/envy
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insecurity

Wikipedia, however, seems to use the poly-definitions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jealousy

thesaurus.com has this interesting note: "jealousy is reflective of a person's feelings or attitudes toward another person, whereas envy expresses a person's feelings or attitudes toward another person's advantages or accomplishments; jealousy pertains to emotional rivalry while envy is resentment of a more fortunate person"

And that's really more in-line with what I understood to be the difference before I started reading up on poly stuffs.
envy = Mmm, that guy has ice cream. I wish I had ice cream.
jealousy = That bitch has ice cream.
fear of loss = That dog is eying up my ice cream, I think he's going to try and steal it.
insecurity = I don't deserve this ice cream and I sure hope no one catches on or else they'll take my ice cream.

While I fully agree that jealousy usually stems from insecurity or a fear of loss rather than simply wanting what someone else has and hating them for it.. I think I no longer agree that they're one and the same thing...

Thoughts?

SchrodingersCat

02-04-2012, 09:01 AM

My first inclination is to go with the dictionary definition, and then say outright "fear of loss" when that's what I mean.

After all, dictionaries have been sources of word meanings for much longer than wikipedia. There's actually no source given for wiki's definition, and it's really just that no one seems to have contested it.

Furthermore, wikipedia's definition is actually inconsistent with its own examples:
If one worker receives positive feedback from the boss while the other employee feels like they deserved that, positive feedback jealousy can arise.

Well, if another worker received positive feedback that the other "feels like they deserved" then they really aren't "losing" anything because they didn't have that positive feedback in the first place. They keep using this "lose services" phrase, and really stretches the phrasing to actually fit "loss" into the picture, e.g. One partner can feel the emotion of jealousy arise if the other partner is paying more attention or time with someone else. To lose services from one partner and have their attention directed towards someone else does not have to be in a romantic way.

This seems inconsistent with what we usually think of as romantic jealousy. For example, if your partner is out of town on business and he has a romantic date while he's there, some people would feel jealous of the other woman. But according to the "fear of loss" model, if the partner is already out of town then what are you losing? Isn't it more accurate to say you're envious of the other woman? And in the case of jealousy, you direct your emotions at her rather than the business that actually took your partner out of town? If she wasn't in the picture and the "date" was a dinner with a client, then few people would describe the longing for your partner as jealousy, even though the loss is identical in either situation.

catbird

02-04-2012, 12:09 PM

well, if you stick with the above mentioned definition of jealousy from thesaurus.com then jealousy would not so much say "that bitch has ice cream" as "that bitch has good looks, better than how i look."

chg2winter

02-04-2012, 12:19 PM

Will the definition help you navigate through it to a point of acceptance or growth? Then use it.

Thanks,
Dan

NovemberRain

02-04-2012, 07:12 PM

This seems inconsistent with what we usually think of as romantic jealousy. For example, if your partner is out of town on business and he has a romantic date while he's there, some people would feel jealous of the other woman. But according to the "fear of loss" model, if the partner is already out of town then what are you losing? Isn't it more accurate to say you're envious of the other woman? And in the case of jealousy, you direct your emotions at her rather than the business that actually took your partner out of town? If she wasn't in the picture and the "date" was a dinner with a client, then few people would describe the longing for your partner as jealousy, even though the loss is identical in either situation.

The way I see it, if someone's out of town, you see them as returning. If they're on a romantic date, you could fear the loss of their return. (running off to join the circus/date)

My thought is that one reason people get married (only one, among thousands) is to stop that fear of loss. "I've married this person. It's forever. I never have to fear loss of this person." I'm not saying it's accurate, I'm not saying it's healthy. I'm saying I think it's common. [disclaimer: I've never been married.]