Poly Standards, Theory, and Practice

[redpepper]

It seems to me that there are not only different ways of having poly relationships, but also different standards for those relationships.

To me it is very important to be respectful, compassionate, and meet people where they are at as much as I can, yet push them a bit to see alternative ways of being. I find that manners go a long way. I find that expressing when I think someone has done a good job goes a long way to them feeling that they are on a positive track. I find that when I express what I feel either "good" feelings or "bad" also goes along way in helping others get to the bottom of their issues.

I have notice with others that facts, prescribed working examples to Poly and "keeping to the program" is far more important than feelings, good manners, and mutual respect and compassion.

I find this on here, and in the community I am in. I realize that this is the same in any relationship really. Poly, mono or any friendship dynamic also.

Anyone else find this? and how can we deal with these differences?

I'm struggling with what I need to say here....I think really its about a good balance between theory minded and emotionally minded and then perhaps how much of both, if that makes sense?

I have a friend that I once thought I could pursue as a relationship that was more than friendship. She has all the traits I like in a woman except she is very guarded with her emotions and never talks about poly dynamics and theory.

While I think that over talking about theory is not so helpful, and being overly emotional is also not helpful, SOME is and I got to the point where I was just not attracted any more. I needed a balance. I needed more and we stopped hanging out, it just drifted.

[MonoVCPHG]

How do we handle differences?

Acceptance....pure, non-judgemental, non-confrontational acceptance that my poly is not your poly, to quote a friend of mine.

Where we run into problems seems to lie in the inability to remove ourselves personally from the stories of others and the approach they have towards relationships. Yes, it is true that what works for some will not work for others but there is no guide book, no set of principles to enforce, no right or wrong way to engage in a poly relationship as long as the people within those relationships are happy, healthy and fulfilled.

If someone prefers to simply let relationships form naturally then that is fine for them.

If someone approaches relationships very methodically with a screening process and network of potentials, then that is fine.

If the relationships is mutually based on fluid boundaries than that is fine.

If the relationship is mutually based on black and white strict rules than that is fine.

There is no right or wrong. Where people get passionate and defensive is when someone looks at their story and instead of asking how it works simply states that that would not work for them and then goes into endless debates with the intent to convince.

Simply accept that not all poly people follow the same approach.

Simply accept that not all people have compatible approaches and boundaries.

Simply accept that having different views does not make one right or wrong.

Offer opinions, not judgements.

Be compassionate when the need is clear.

Most importantly simply accept that everyone seeks something to fulfill himself or herself and that is an individual thing, not a group thing. It does not take the approval of a community or "subject matter expert" (of which there are none in matters of love, there are only people that claim to be). Each person is their own subject matter expert because only they know what is truly happening inside their heart and mind.

Peace and Love
Mono

[Ceoli]

I get the sense that a lot of this is being directed at me and Joreth. If that's the case, I see a lot of assumptions and tacit judgments being made in this post, which I would have a lot to say about. But since it's written very generally, I'm not going to assume that this was the intent of your post. I wouldn't mind seeing more specific examples of what you're talking about. But now I have to head to work.

[GroundedSpirit]

Red - that's just awesome !
It's such a simple truth really and simple truths are generally the best.
Life is so complex for everyone these days and there seems to be such a ....push...out there in society for people to find & latch onto some "truth" and turn it into a cause or campaign. There's this whole concept circulating that we have to fulfill our "human potential" - some grand reason we're here - or we're a failure. People don't want to feel or be labeled "failures" !
And all to often, in this quest to fulfill our "human potential" - we can lose sight of our "humanity". I think this is what you're saying ?
So thank you - because it's a wonderful reminder to the world :)
Everyone is doing the best they know how and it's easy to become sidetracked. As I know I must have said before somewhere - passion is a double edged blade. We have to be wary of it and not cut off our humanity.

GS

[MonoVCPHG]

Red - that's just awesome !
It's such a simple truth really and simple truths are generally the best.
Life is so complex for everyone these days and there seems to be such a ....push...out there in society for people to find & latch onto some "truth" and turn it into a cause or campaign. There's this whole concept circulating that we have to fulfill our "human potential" - some grand reason we're here - or we're a failure. People don't want to feel or be labeled "failures" !
And all to often, in this quest to fulfill our "human potential" - we can lose sight of our "humanity". I think this is what you're saying ?
So thank you - because it's a wonderful reminder to the world :)
Everyone is doing the best they know how and it's easy to become sidetracked. As I know I must have said before somewhere - passion is a double edged blade. We have to be wary of it and not cut off our humanity.

GS

Sorry to take up so much space quoting your whole comment GS, but I think it rocks!
I am certainly one who has gotten sidetracked by reading too much into threads or making assumptions; this lead to a lot of negative energy for me.

I was some one who looked at different ways of approaching poly on here and in my extensive "real life" poly community for lack of a better word. I was judgemental and still at times have to fight back being confrontational. But I do, I recognized the futility of directing so much energy at trying to convince rather than accept.

Most of the observations I make come from my interaction with people locally, which is where the bulk of examples come from for me although they are obvious throughout these forum threads as well.

I think the real focus of this thread is about recognizing that there are differences, those differences are healthy and normal and should not divide people. They can inform people and perhaps increase the most important key to enjoying life and loving others…acceptance.

Peace and love
Mono

[redpepper]

passion is a double edged blade. We have to be wary of it and not cut off our humanity.

Thanks for the response GS, I appreciate it... I'm struggling to really put across what I mean. I get so hurt by others and their lack of being able to just "be" in relationships... there always seems to have to be some drama or point made. Is it that people just feel like they have to fulfill their potential, or is it that they just need to be right? Is it that their passion cuts off their humanity like a double edged sword? I don't know?

I find that the path to being more human is to embrace other humans for what they are and where they are at. Nothing more, nothing less. It's about really loving the other for where they are at. Much of what I think is in what Mono says... I'm not saying that I'm perfect at it but I have learned some lessons in the last couple of years that have lead me to really strive to be completely open to who people are. I doubt I would of been able to allow the people that are in my life now in if I hadn't of been through that.

What made me learn this?

Well, I was charged, through Canadian human rights, by a Chinese Canadian woman I worked with with racism and sexism. For two years she battled me in court to get money out of me and blacken my name because she took something I said out of context and decided that I was racist and sexist.

Eventually she was paid off. She had no case, but instead decided that she was going to make it all last as long as possible by getting doctors notes so she wouldn't have to go to court. The letters were legit in that she was very ill.

I was devestated. She was a good friend of mine... hung out with me on my maternity leave with my child, sought my opinion as I sought hers. We were good friends.... and close co-workers.

During that time I became a shell of myself and it effected my family greatly. I lost a child in my second trimester because of the stress. It's in my nature and because of how I was raised that I take these things on more than perhaps I should, she saw that in me and prayed upon that.

Well. Now I consider what happened a huge gift. I am actually grateful to her for forcing me to face up to big issues I had, that of feeling like everything is my fault and that if I don't give EVERYTHING of myself that I am not doing enough.... it's because of her that I was able to face up to my parents this fall and stop taking their shit. It's because of her that I know how real racism affects peoples judgment of others to the point where they can't have a real friend for fear that they are judging them.

I guess my point is, and the lesson I learned was that everyone has stuff they work on, sometimes they are all knowing and self righteous and unwilling to realize that sometimes things are not what they seem and are in fact nothing to do with them. My experience has lead me to believe that everyone is deserving of love, but not at the jeopardy of "me." I also realize that regardless of what I think is wrong, there should always be room for me to say I'm sorry that you feel that way, I didn't mean to insult you... or whatever.

My story about the friend I thought I could be more intimate with was that I seem to be unable to settle for anything less than a balance in people and a degree of depth and passion. I have lived the life of an activist, and completely immersed in the "theory" of things and have had it thrown in my face because I thought I knew something. I have tons of experience in diverse communities of many kinds and pride myself in taking on my own inner racism etc and turning it out so I can make myself vulnerable enough to move forward and learn from others and my own culture, yet was STILL told I was racist.... simply by telling someone who is Chinese Canadian that I thought they looked good in yellow.

There is no where to turn where we will be safe from ourselves and others harm, no where, we are all equally dangerous as we are equally accepting, loving, respectful and compassionate. It's a choice that we all make..... I for one chose to be what I said in my first post as much as I can....

"To me it is very important to be respectful, compassionate, and meet people where they are at as much as I can, yet push them a bit to see alternative ways of being. I find that manners go a long way. I find that expressing when I think someone has done a good job goes a long way to them feeling that they are on a positive track. I find that when I express what I feel either "good" feelings or "bad" also goes along way in helping others get to the bottom of their issues."

I learned this from my friend. I have learned even more from listening to stories and responding on this forum.

Just an addition... I have also learned this from the team I work on... I work with some very strong minded women that are all very different. We tolerate one another on a daily basis and, in time, have grown to love each other. One of my co-worker never talks about her feelings but only facts and details. I can't keep that all straight in my head and she gets frustrated with me when I ask for the third time what is happening when. I, on the other hand, am able to strategize about how to handle situations and can easily empathize with what might be going on for someone and be able to offer suggestions that we quite often go with. Together we make a good team.

I just want to know how people promote/embrace differences in their poly relationships and how they are able to deal with different minded people? Poly theory people and more emotional... if in fact they do? Are they really so different that it is impossible? Of course there is a mix in all of us I realize..

I am hopeful that there can be a balance but at the same time have not heard of any groups in a poly family or poly situation where their is such a diverse group... it seems that like minded people group together.

I hope that gives enough example as to where I am coming from.

Wow that was long, sorry folks :)

[redpepper]

I get the sense that a lot of this is being directed at me and Joreth. If that's the case, I see a lot of assumptions and tacit judgments being made in this post, which I would have a lot to say about. But since it's written very generally, I'm not going to assume that this was the intent of your post. I wouldn't mind seeing more specific examples of what you're talking about. But now I have to head to work.

No direction intended Ceoli or Joreth...

[MonoVCPHG]

I had a good talk with Redpepper about this thread until a light bulb switched on when I could relate it to my own experience with people of our physically local poly community.

We were discussing how people with differences could find common ground to relate and build connections on. I was having a problem with this idea because her and I have different thoughts on the need to connect with everyone we are around despite possible large differences in thought processes. Factor in the added frustration that some people are so hung up on the topics you don’t agree on that they aren’t willing to even let you find a common ground. How do you overcome these differences? How do you work through to the other side of disconnect to achieve connection?

Here is the major difference in her thought pattern and mine…hopefully she will correct me gently if I am wrong.:o

She wants to find a common ground to have some form of connection to all around us. She finds frustration in trying to get through to people and work past their differences even though she faces severe resistance at times.

I do not.

When I meet someone I feel something that internally gauges whether I want to connect. I don’t need to just because they are close to me. The person could be two feet from me all the time and if the energy isn’t there I don’t care. There are so many more people who have that something in them that I wonder why I would waste my time or energy trying to break down a brick wall. I look past it, walk around it and put it out of my mind.

This is the case with one gentleman in our poly community. He is anti religion, anti government and anti mono. I don’t mind that he feels this way, but he constantly wants to engage me in topics to debate and convert my opinions. I am very honest with him and last time I simply stated that I would not engage him in these topics because it bread negativity. It created negativity because he is so determined to question relentlessly. I do not tolerate some one essentially hounding me. Because we could not get passed our different views and even explore common ground, which I'm sure we have, we simply don’t engage each other anymore even though we are around each other often. No harm, no foul. I accept that we are not compatible so I don’t channel any energy in trying to create some form of connection. We occupy the same space, nothing more.

There are many others in our community that have different views than me and share this gentleman’s own views. We acknowledge and respect each other’s opinions. I see something in them that makes me want to find common ground though. One person in particular is pretty much the exact opposite of me but I am drawn to him in a friendly way. We ended up talking about lucid dreaming, which fascinates both of us and was a shared experience. Who cares about our politics, our approach to love, our wiring…we have a connection that makes us compatible and injects value into our relationship. We can discuss and debate these topics in healthy ways when we mutually chose; not when one of us demands.

I feel connection first and then look for common ground. I don’t seek out common ground to form that connection.
How do I deal with someone who has very different views than my own?
I accept their opinions and if I feel connection I look for that common ground like a pig looking for truffles…. Redpepper is a major case in point. WOW are we different, but wow are we connected!! There is something in her that is worth all the energy I have to find that common ground. Luckily our energies seem synced even when our opinions often don't :) The biggest part of that common ground is our energy...our love.

If I don’t feel that connection or sense they intend on persisting on moot points of difference…..I just don’t….I move on. There are way too many people in this world for me to get caught up on trying to connect with one of them unless there is that something about them. I don’t feel the need.

Peace and Love
Mono

[Ceoli]

I have notice with others that facts, prescribed working examples to Poly and "keeping to the program" is far more important than feelings, good manners, and mutual respect and compassion.

I find this on here

......

I think really its about a good balance between theory minded and emotionally minded and then perhaps how much of both, if that makes sense?


Ok, than can you give me some examples of what you mean about what you see on here? Because I'm still not understanding what you mean.

[GroundedSpirit]

That's a sad story Red and it exposes all KINDS of issues about being human and trying to navigate our current western culture.
That could take off in several directions !
All I have to toss in is that all we can do is try to live our own lives with integrity and keep an eye on our back. As as you illustrated, even that is not always enough. But I think we can only lead/teach by example.
Most everyone is caught up some way in a struggle of ego and self definition. In heavy pursuit of this people will trample others - even if it's in ignorance. So, I don't feel it's possible to connect on any meaningful level with all people. And when we're forced into situations of having to deal with them we can only offer our views - and/or leave. But not without making it clear why.

GS

[MonoVCPHG]

But I think we can only lead/teach by example.

Most everyone is caught up some way in a struggle of ego and self definition. In heavy pursuit of this people will trample others - even if it's in ignorance. So, I don't feel it's possible to connect on any meaningful level with all people. And when we're forced into situations of having to deal with them we can only offer our views - and/or leave. But not without making it clear why.

GS

Good points GS.
I have extensive training in conflict resolution as well as in the escalation of conflict. Part of my training was provided through the military but the bulk of it was acquired in other pursuits of mine. Ego is the single biggest cause of conflicts escalating to the point of aggression on the street.
A lot of times it is one person who continues talking while the other simply wants to leave the area and carry about there business. A lot of times it is ego that drives the one person to continue, to establish that they are "the man". It is this hounding and cornering that eventually leads to conflicts moving beyond a breakdown in verbal communication. A lot of times it is this that leads to fights and war.

I have felt this in my dealings with some people in the local poly community and honestly if it was not for the calming affects of Redpepper it's hard to say where that would lead too…because you see, I too suffer from ego and sometimes you just want people to shut up.

Peace and love
Mono

[crisare]

When I meet someone I feel something that internally gauges whether I want to connect. I don’t need to just because they are close to me. The person could be two feet from me all the time and if the energy isn’t there I don’t care. There are so many more people who have that something in them that I wonder why I would waste my time or energy trying to break down a brick wall. I look past it, walk around it and put it out of my mind.
[...]
I feel connection first and then look for common ground. I don’t seek out common ground to form that connection.
How do I deal with someone who has very different views than my own?
I accept their opinions and if I feel connection I look for that common ground like a pig looking for truffles….
[...]
If I don’t feel that connection or sense they intend on persisting on moot points of difference…..I just don’t….I move on. There are way too many people in this world for me to get caught up on trying to connect with one of them unless there is that something about them. I don’t feel the need.
Wow this resonated with me.

I used to be a "people pleaser" and wanted to be able to connect in some way with everyone. Perhaps not to the depth that you describe redpepper being, but close. I always felt I had to like and be liked by everyone or I was failing.

Recent changes in my life (in the last 3-4 years) have made me realize that when I'm not "forcing" myself, I'm much more like you, Mono. And accepting that has made me much more comfortable with myself. I don't have to connect with everyone and if I don't, then there's no need to push it. Not everyone is going to be buddies with everyone else and I'm ok with that. But it took me a long time to accept that in myself.

[MonoVCPHG]

Wow this resonated with me.

I used to be a "people pleaser" and wanted to be able to connect in some way with everyone. Perhaps not to the depth that you describe redpepper being, but close. I always felt I had to like and be liked by everyone or I was failing.

.


I used to feel this too..it used to bother me when I perceived someone didn't like me...now I realize that is an unrealistic expectation and accept that fact...but that doesn't mean I can't find something to appreciate about everyone whether I express it or not. I do it in secret and I feel good about it internally. ;)

[redpepper]

I can't really think of any specific examples on here, but the whole "people pleasing" thing resonates with me too. I was the same way and in moments of forgetfulness I still am, I also get that not everyone gets along. Call me crazy, but what I am talking about is getting past that even. To a place where we all just are... Parts we see eye to eye on and parts we are struggling with in each other.

I'm finding it hard to explain because it seems to be a nonverbal thing for me. Like a form of heightened empathy.

Its almost a spiritual thing for me and I find it hard to totally relate it to poly. I know its what I experience in my "V" but I am trying to accomplish that feeling in my poly community and beyond. I think I have achieved it at work with some of my long term co-workers. I told them just yesterday how much I love and appreciate them and some of us drive each other crazy. They all agreed. Maybe they were humouring me haha! :)

I guess the whole "type" thing is just to complicated in this whole thing. When I think of it all from afar it is making more sense. When I get down to details about more emotional people, or more theoretical it gets too detailed I think.

When I know a persons Myers briggs test results it seem to create the effect I am speaking of in an artificial way. It seems to defuse differences somehow, just in knowing we are all different and here is a test to prove it.

[GroundedSpirit]

I think I really do understand your struggle Red. I've often faced the same thing. Actually I think everyone does whether they slow down enough to recognize it or not.
And here's what I often come back to. And this is the kind of thing that takes tremendous discipline in your life in order to really live it.
In our current culture it's VERY difficult to LIVE in the "Moment". Just getting through the day for lots of people means dealing with things from multiple directions from our work/school lives, personal lives etc. So in any given interaction, often we're not "fully present". Part of us is here - part of us is somewhere else, dealing with some whole different situation.
Does this make sense ?
So... any particular interaction is a mishmash of stuff that applies and stuff that doesn't - INCLUDING the attached emotions.
I think if everyone was capable of living fully in the moment - that their full awareness and focus was applied to the circumstance immediately in front of them, that the whole attitude & outcome would often be different. It's often not that people don't like us, that we're not on the same page etc, it's just that one or more of us are introducing pieces of "stuff" that don't belong in the here & now. They're coming from somewhere else.
But we don't often live/interact that way. And it takes YEARS of training and constant vigilance to do so. Not to mention even an awareness of the concept, which we don't even have that.
So, I've just found it seems to help that in all my interactions I try to bring everyone back into the "moment" and this also helps bring ME back !

GS

[redpepper]

I think if everyone was capable of living fully in the moment - that their full awareness and focus was applied to the circumstance immediately in front of them, that the whole attitude & outcome would often be different. It's often not that people don't like us, that we're not on the same page etc, it's just that one or more of us are introducing pieces of "stuff" that don't belong in the here & now. They're coming from somewhere else.
So, I've just found it seems to help that in all my interactions I try to bring everyone back into the "moment" and this also helps bring ME back !

Pieces of "stuff" I totally get what you are saying here.

I went to a party last night that included many of my poly friends. Thanks to these lovely forums I see several dynamics differently now. My definition of poly is not amongst most of the people in the community I have here. Or at least not the way we are doing it/living it. Because of these forums I am able to live in the moment more and just let all that be. I love the friends I've made for the individuals they are and the moments we share at such events, but I sometimes don't receive that in return.

I realized last night, after several months, different conversations and putting some stuff together that I think I am and we are being judged and that judgment has blocked us from being closer to certain people. I guess it is hard for some people to understand that I prefer to find freedom in being committed to both my husband and Mono. I don't have a need at this point in my life to seek out more relationships and more sexual experiences. I have quality relationships and don't need more quantity. The seeming judgment comes when people think that I am somehow giving up my freedom. Sure Mono and I and all of us have some set boundaries that mean to the outside world I am losing my sexual freedom, and whether or not I can push that is left to be determined under certain circumstances, but I am happy where we are at and I am not giving up anything. On the contrary, I am inviting in relationship depth and more love in that than I have ever known.

The judgment that blocks some people from even talking to me is that they conduct their relationships from the perspective of being an entity un to themselves and they have several partners outside of that. Our relationship is based on "we" are the entity. Does that make sense? I would not want to be an entity on my own with partners. It sounds lonely and sad to me. I love being in a tight nit entity of three. The recent add on woman that my tersiary has found has made me realize this even more. He has found himself a play partner that he can dominate. My feelings about it are varied, but I seem to be unable to be totally okay with his outsideness in my life. I am coming to terms with it and realize that for him it's better and for me too, but I struggle.

sigh.... I'm tired of it all really. I just feel like crawling under a rock with my chosen family and hermitting. I totally can see why some poly families do that and just get on with their lives. I feel misunderstood after last night and the realization that I am judged. :( it makes me weepy, cause I try so hard to rise above that.... others like to steep in it. too much "stuff" is involved.

[MonoVCPHG]

I think a lot of the differences in approaches between us and many others in our community are the desire for such a closely integrated unit and the fact that there is a child involved. I think that is often forgotten as most of our friends do not have dependant children and don't want the level of integration we have. Many of our friends have a more inward focus and can focus solely on what they want without the need to consider something like stability for a child.

As far as the perception of control goes, some of this might be attributed to the language we use when discussing boundaries. Hearing someone say, "I can't" do something is a lot different than hearing someone say, "I chose to ".

These are control versus choice statements.

If thinking about boundaries does in fact bring up phrases like "I can't" in our own minds, than perhaps there is a control issue. If that is the case, than the question is, am I healthy in a relationship with that type of control?

To me the words "I can't" imply a desire to do so but not being allowed to; Denial.
Living in denial is not sustainable in my opinion.

When discussing relationship boundaries especially in a possibly judgemental environment it is important to express clearly our thoughts and use words that reflect what we feel. It is also important to be honest in expressing what we feel.

I think it is very important to be honest with ourselves in whether we do something because we want to or because we have to. If we do that than those around us will sense it more than hear it.


Peace and Love
Mono

[booklady78]

I can relate to wanting to 'please' people, as I have a great deal of difficulty voicing what I want or need. I am at my happiest when others are happy, which has had great rewards as well as downfalls. I would hate to think of myself as a total 'doormat' but the truth is that much of the unhappiness in my life has been because of fear of confrontation and not speaking up when I should have. I have been estranged from my parents, lost friends, and fallen into depression only to surface on the other side a wiser, if perhaps more cynical, person.
This past summer, much to the displeasure of my husband, I embarked on a trip by myself. I have made some online friends in the past year and wanted very much to meet them. My husband and I had also been 'drifting' and although not unhappy, just seemed too comfortable in old habits. I was terribly lonely at times as I travelled through several US states, but I learned more about myself than I ever imagined. When I returned, our previous discussions about doing something to 'revive' our marriage turned to polyamory. We already had a 'swinging' type agreement that had never been acted upon, but now we were ready to discuss what we now understand to be polyamory.
Now that I have a boyfriend in addition to my husband, there is a balance emerging. While some might consider having 2 men to be 'selfish', nothing could be further from the truth as I'm sure many of you understand. Although having them both in my life is something I want, more than anything, I've learned to temper my wants with their needs. I'm speaking up more than ever, while still being very considerate of all concerned. For me, it's been realizing what I want, then figuring out how to make it work. It doesn't always work, and I can accept that. Because I'm happier than I've ever been. I'll take the wins and losses and strike the best balance I can, in life, in work, with family, with every relationship. Out of all the pain and frustration over the course of my life, it's all lead to this time, this moment, with these people in my life. And I wouldn't dare change a thing.

[ImaginaryIllusion]

The judgment that blocks some people from even talking to me is that they conduct their relationships from the perspective of being an entity un to themselves and they have several partners outside of that. Our relationship is based on "we" are the entity. Does that make sense? I would not want to be an entity on my own with partners. It sounds lonely and sad to me. I love being in a tight nit entity of three.

What you're saying makes perfect sense. The "I" entity seems to be mostly a privilege of the young, unattached, and/or childless. The "we" entity can be a foriegn concept for those who haven't experienced it. Similarly as those who have been a part of "we" long enough might forget what it was like to be an "I".

What you describe sounds strikingly similar to how I expect some mono's would feel talking to poly's sometimes. While poly's might question them about their lack of freedom being 'limited' to only one person for the rest of their life...the mono's, if they've considered the alternatives or not, may be perfectly happy with exploring the depth of their own relationship, rather than the breadth of experiencing others. Particularly the cases of established, long term successful monogamous couples (as opposed to the serial sorts) they may very well understand your "we" better than perhaps some of your "I"-am-poly friends.

[Ceoli]

I realized last night, after several months, different conversations and putting some stuff together that I think I am and we are being judged and that judgment has blocked us from being closer to certain people. I guess it is hard for some people to understand that I prefer to find freedom in being committed to both my husband and Mono. I don't have a need at this point in my life to seek out more relationships and more sexual experiences. I have quality relationships and don't need more quantity. The seeming judgment comes when people think that I am somehow giving up my freedom. Sure Mono and I and all of us have some set boundaries that mean to the outside world I am losing my sexual freedom, and whether or not I can push that is left to be determined under certain circumstances, but I am happy where we are at and I am not giving up anything. On the contrary, I am inviting in relationship depth and more love in that than I have ever known.

The judgment that blocks some people from even talking to me is that they conduct their relationships from the perspective of being an entity un to themselves and they have several partners outside of that. Our relationship is based on "we" are the entity. Does that make sense? I would not want to be an entity on my own with partners. It sounds lonely and sad to me.

It's great that you're finding what works for you. However, it might be worth considering that others who are in more fluid or free relationships might also perceiving tacit judgment from you in how you're choosing to frame it. Not specifically referring to you here, I often see such things framed as "I would rather have depth and quality than quantity", implying that those who are in relationships that are more fluid can't have the same emotional connection or depth than other kinds of relationships.

The same can be said for perceiving how others regard their own entity within the relationship, whether it be "I" or "we". Those kinds of perceptions from outside the people experiencing it are often inaccurate and don't do justice to the personal experience of those in it. If someone said that I'm just not at the point where I can understand the "we" entity because of how my relationships are at the moment, I'd definitely be calling out those assumptions. Simply because our state of "we" looks different than your state of "we", it doesn't mean we're not in a state of "we". (this is a general "your" not a specific person)

Saying things like "it would be lonely and sad for me" could suggest to someone who hears it that you see them as lonely and sad people for having that experience when they may not be. This is a natural thing that happens when we start comparing our own experiences to other people's experiences. This is also why I dislike poly communities that declare certain people more "advanced" at poly because of their relationship styles than other people. I've seen such tacit judgments happen on this board fairly often.

It's definitely not ok to be judged for living the life that's right for you and if I was around while that was happening, I'd be calling that out, but I would also consider that while it may be in defense of the judgements you're feeling, you may be offering the same tacit judgments to people who are also living the life that's right for them.

[redpepper]

It seems "lonely and sad to me" because it is "lonely and sad TO ME" I am not judging in that statement and would suggest that if it is seen as so then that is a judgement.

What I wanted to say about my last post was that having talked to Mono over the last days it occurs to me that I have been not speaking to our relationship in such a way that would promote people around us thinking that I am okay in it. I have been saying "I'm not allowed to have other men in my life sexually." I should of been saying, "I'm not interested in having othe men in my life sexually as I want to experience what I have and that is more important to me." while this is longer to say, ;) it reflects more how I feel.

Good point Mono. Thanks.

[NeonKaos]

I've said this before so i don't want to sound as though I'm stuck in a feedback-loop BUT...

I wish people weren't so hung up on "judge not lest ye be judged". The kind of "judgment" that is being discussed on this forum is not biblical-style judgment. So far I haven't seen anyone here suggesting or endorsing that someone be stoned or excommunicated for their lifestyle choices.

The kind of "judgment" that we DO see on this forum is the type that speaks more about the person MAKING the judgment than it does about the person "being judged", and is not on the social order of violating someone's human rights.

Having said that, sometimes people need to hear things they don't want to hear. Internet forums are a great way of providing that because sometimes the people we have in our day-to-day lives are either too close to give us an objective opinion, or we may not hear their opinions in a way that effectively gets the message across.

There is barely a fine line between "opinion" and "judgment" and sometimes there is no difference in essence, only differences in the way something is perceived. Keep in mind that if I'm "judging" you, you can walk away from me or not listen, and there is not a thing I can do about that. I can "judge" you all I want, but only you can allow yourself to "be judged".

(Again, all "you"s are general, not aimed at RedPepper, Ceoli, Joreth, or anyone else in particular)

[redpepper]

Agreed ygirl. Thank you for pointing that out. I wish for my words to be seen as opinions nothing more, I try and see others that way, I would appreciate the same respect. :)

[AutumnalTone]

I wish people weren't so hung up on "judge not lest ye be judged". The kind of "judgment" that is being discussed on this forum is not biblical-style judgment. So far I haven't seen anyone here suggesting or endorsing that someone be stoned or excommunicated for their lifestyle choices.


Yeah. The "judgement" I see in discussion involves that of "there are many ways to do this and I find this one works best for these reasons." That, however, is not a judgement on the people doing things in a different fashion. Indeed, for me--and I imagine for most folks here--if what any particular person is doing is working for them, I'm all for them continuing to do that until it quits working for them.

Comparison and contrast of different approaches provides information. It provides information on the variety of approaches people take to achieve the same ends. It provides added information for each to consider for when what they're doing isn't getting the results they want. It provides information that may have been missing when somebody decided to do what they do and now they can adjust to find something that works better.

I'd say it's a mistake to look at that sort of "judgement" dealing with ideas and view it as an attack on a person or an attempt to convert anybody to doing things differently. It's simply a way to share information--and the goal (for everyone, I hope)--is to help others find what works best for them.

I rail against the mis-use of terms so that we can know what in hell it is we're speaking of. That's not a judgement against the people who try to stretch terms to cover more ground than they should, it's commentary on the use of language and what works well and doesn't. Folks can still mis-use terms as they wish--it'll just result in muddled discussion.

And so on.

[redpepper]

I actually wrote a big long post on just that seventh, but lost it due to being on a bus and having to get off. Haha... Thanks for posting what is was thinking for me :P.

[ImaginaryIllusion]

I have been saying "I'm not allowed to have other men in my life sexually." I should of been saying, "I'm not interested in having othe men in my life sexually as I want to experience what I have and that is more important to me." while this is longer to say, ;) it reflects more how I feel.

Oh I used to get in trouble for that all the time...and probably will continue to do so, whenever I used to say to my friends "Would love to go for a beer...let me check if I'm allowed!" or "Can't attend the party, not allowed out to tonight!" which was never a matter of not actually being allowed...just was always easier to say it that way.

My wife never seemed to see the humour in it.

[NeonKaos]

I'd say it's a mistake to look at that sort of "judgement" dealing with ideas and view it as an attack on a person or an attempt to convert anybody to doing things differently. It's simply a way to share information--and the goal (for everyone, I hope)--is to help others find what works best for them.



I have done this, and the first example that comes to mind is the thread on here started by a guy who was involved with two sisters. I continue to reaffirm that I do not agree that this is "right" (and River started a whole thread for discussing taboos, ethics, etc.), but that does not mean that I don't believe that gentleman has the right to do what he wants to as long as they're all consenting adults, blah blah, yak yak, etc. etc. and so on and so forth.


Here are those two threads, for anyone who's interested:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=601

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=612


The thing that stands out to me most is that someone says "If the people involved are ok with it, then it's ok". But reading the situation, the people involved are obviously NOT ok with it. So, *I* am the one being "judgmental"?

In case no one can tell, this is a pet peeve of mine (both the "judgment" thing as well as to a certain extent the dating-first-degree-relations thing). But I have just inhaled a glass of wine and it is starting to hit me so I'm cutting this post short before I make a mess of it.

[NeonKaos]

I have been saying "I'm not allowed to have other men in my life sexually." I should of been saying, "I'm not interested in having othe men in my life sexually as I want to experience what I have and that is more important to me." while this is longer to say, ;) it reflects more how I feel.



I know that what you really did is you made the CHOICE to have a certain man in your life sexually and the reality of that choice requires you to refrain from pursuing additional sexual relationships with other men.

I think this is more accurate than saying you're "not allowed" or "not interested". I don't know what's going on in your mind. Correct me if I am wrong!

[Ceoli]

An opinion by it's very nature is a judgment.

I have nothing against judgments or opinions. But I will say one thing, I don't agree with the idea that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do believe that everyone is entitled to an informed opinion, however. We run into trouble when opinions are offered about another person's experience, because more often than not, it's waaaay less than informed. When those experiences in question start to delve into larger ethical questions, or when those experiences have a tangible effect on others around the, then informed opinions can often be appropriate.

[LovingRadiance]

Thanks for the response GS, I appreciate it... I'm struggling to really put across what I mean. I get so hurt by others and their lack of being able to just "be" in relationships... there always seems to have to be some drama or point made. Is it that people just feel like they have to fulfill their potential, or is it that they just need to be right? Is it that their passion cuts off their humanity like a double edged sword? I don't know?

I know one issue I have (that drives Maca crazy) is that I AM always striving to fulfil my personal potential. Sometimes that can be a relationship issue, particularly if the person I am with is "backpedaling".

I do prefer to just "be" in relationships and enjoy them. But at the same time, in order for me to continue growing-I need a certain amount of autonomy and acceptance and/or the person I am in a relationship with to be growing as well.....

On a side note-I HATE drama, but I SWEAR I am a magnet for it! It's rare that any of the drama in our lives is centered around our personal family relationships-but the people around us tend to strongly depend on us in their issues-so their drama permeates.

The last year or so I've found myself minimizing some friendships for exactly that reason. I just need a break from the drama-and the only way I seem to be able to find peace from it is to distance myself from them... :(

[MonoVCPHG]

The last year or so I've found myself minimizing some friendships for exactly that reason. I just need a break from the drama-and the only way I seem to be able to find peace from it is to distance myself from them... :(


This I completely understand. External pressures and influences seem to be the biggest source of drama in our lives since working through the first five or six months LOL!! It's important to be able to distance yourself from destructive influences.

[LovingRadiance]

I can't really think of any specific examples on here, but the whole "people pleasing" thing resonates with me too. I was the same way and in moments of forgetfulness I still am, I also get that not everyone gets along. Call me crazy, but what I am talking about is getting past that even. To a place where we all just are... Parts we see eye to eye on and parts we are struggling with in each other.

I'm finding it hard to explain because it seems to be a nonverbal thing for me. Like a form of heightened empathy.

Its almost a spiritual thing for me and I find it hard to totally relate it to poly. I know its what I experience in my "V" but I am trying to accomplish that feeling in my poly community and beyond. I think I have achieved it at work with some of my long term co-workers. I told them just yesterday how much I love and appreciate them and some of us drive each other crazy. They all agreed. Maybe they were humouring me haha! :)

I guess the whole "type" thing is just to complicated in this whole thing. When I think of it all from afar it is making more sense. When I get down to details about more emotional people, or more theoretical it gets too detailed I think.

When I know a persons Myers briggs test results it seem to create the effect I am speaking of in an artificial way. It seems to defuse differences somehow, just in knowing we are all different and here is a test to prove it.

I think I get that somewhat RP. Like Mark's ex-wife. I can assure you-I don't like her. Not because she's ex-because she's so cruel to our son (her bio son, my step son). She is so selfish that she simply doesn't consider ANYONE's feelings but her own-including our son's.

BUT-every time she's called with her world in pieces (her mom died, her dad moved away, she got two DUI's, she has gone in and out of rehab, etc) I always take the time to help her find solutions (I even researched support groups in her town, the works) and whatever she needed to deal with her life, where she's at, with what she knows.

It's just a matter of "doing the right thing" in my mind....

sigh.... I'm tired of it all really. I just feel like crawling under a rock with my chosen family and hermitting. I totally can see why some poly families do that and just get on with their lives. I feel misunderstood after last night and the realization that I am judged. it makes me weepy, cause I try so hard to rise above that.... others like to steep in it. too much "stuff" is involved. I hear that! It gets exhausting!!
But if you do decide to hermit can I go too!!??:)

I've found that I really tailor my conversations and "sharing" to who I am with these days. I never did before-I was just "me" all the time with everyone.

Now I'm ME with the people who I trust... and on here. I don't feel like I can't be real on here-because the reality is that there isn't a high risk of people on here causing me grief in my "real" life.

Even though I personally KNOW several people on here in my real life, they are people I am already "me" with....

But often now when we go out, I just give off a "not social" persona so people don't bother talking to me...
it kind of bothers me-I feel like a bitch. But at the same time, I feel exhausted by the drama that comes with socializing...

I think a lot of the differences in approaches between us and many others in our community are the desire for such a closely integrated unit and the fact that there is a child involved. I think that is often forgotten as most of our friends do not have dependant children and don't want the level of integration we have. Many of our friends have a more inward focus and can focus solely on what they want without the need to consider something like stability for a child.That's kind of ironic-because all but one of the "poly" or "poly-friendly" people I know in person-have small children at home and so we all have a focus of their needs being critical in our decision making. :)


If thinking about boundaries does in fact bring up phrases like "I can't" in our own minds, than perhaps there is a control issue. If that is the case, than the question is, am I healthy in a relationship with that type of control?

To me the words "I can't" imply a desire to do so but not being allowed to; Denial.
Living in denial is not sustainable in my opinion.This is a big deal to me. I haven't yet found a completely solution in my life-but it's something that is very important to me!

When discussing relationship boundaries especially in a possibly judgemental environment it is important to express clearly our thoughts and use words that reflect what we feel. It is also important to be honest in expressing what we feel.I think the breakdown in this one is that too many people assume that the way THEY understand a word is the way EVERYONE understands a word. BOTH people need to verify (and sometimes double or triple verify) that they both have a clear understanding of the meaning of the words. This step alone has helped SO much in Maca and I understanding one another! I can't imagine how much it will help when talking to other people.

We get into these grooves in life-where we become so entrenched in our own perceptions-we forget that even people standing right next to us-may have different perceptions of the same situations. As soon as we do that-we risk (high risk) that we will not actually communicate to the person we are talking to-thus making talkign to them purposeless for us and them!


I think it is very important to be honest with ourselves in whether we do something because we want to or because we have to. If we do that than those around us will sense it more than hear it.AH! Very true. Good point and well worth deeper consideration!

[crisare]

But often now when we go out, I just give off a "not social" persona so people don't bother talking to me...
it kind of bothers me-I feel like a bitch. But at the same time, I feel exhausted by the drama that comes with socializing...Amen to that. I do the same much of the time - and being a naturally social person it's sometimes hard. But I had to learn the hard way that not everyone who says he/she wants to be a friend ... really wants to be a friend. Or at least the way I define a friend. (And I may be one of the few people in the world who still draws a distinction between friends and acquaintances - especially given the terminology of various forms of online social media these days.)

I find myself opening up to fewer and fewer people these days.

[LovingRadiance]

I rail against the mis-use of terms so that we can know what in hell it is we're speaking of. That's not a judgement against the people who try to stretch terms to cover more ground than they should, it's commentary on the use of language and what works well and doesn't. Folks can still mis-use terms as they wish--it'll just result in muddled discussion.

And so on.I wish I had a really great mis-use to toss out humorously here. But I don't have one off the top of my head.

I have this conversation DAILY in my real life!

Amen to that. I do the same much of the time - and being a naturally social person it's sometimes hard. But I had to learn the hard way that not everyone who says he/she wants to be a friend ... really wants to be a friend. Or at least the way I define a friend. (And I may be one of the few people in the world who still draws a distinction between friends and acquaintances - especially given the terminology of various forms of online social media these days.)

I find myself opening up to fewer and fewer people these days.

GOD! ME TOO!!!! I get so frustrated with the "friend" "acquaintance" thing. They are NOT the same thing. Nor is "coworker" the same as friend. I don't refer to coworkers as friends-unless they are ALSO friends! :)

[redpepper]

Oh I used to get in trouble for that all the time...and probably will continue to do so, whenever I used to say to my friends "Would love to go for a beer...let me check if I'm allowed!" or "Can't attend the party, not allowed out to tonight!" which was never a matter of not actually being allowed...just was always easier to say it that way.

My wife never seemed to see the humour in it.

Haha, I bet she didn't,,, but I talk like that too. I think because some people have this idea that I have it all because I have two men, that I am so much the princess and soooo well taken care of that I get anything I want. Not true. I certainly have what I need, but it's not all sweetness and roses. I work hard at balancing and negotiating what we all need, not just me. When I say I'm "not allowed" I say it tongue in cheek... I guess it's not seen that way by some.
I guess I should stop saying that.

I know that what you really did is you made the CHOICE to have a certain man in your life sexually and the reality of that choice requires you to refrain from pursuing additional sexual relationships with other men.

I think this is more accurate than saying you're "not allowed" or "not interested". I don't know what's going on in your mind. Correct me if I am wrong!

nope, that's about right ygirl.

[redpepper]

I have been continuing to talk about this with Mono and my husband and have come to the conclusion that different poly practices and standards are really about definition of poly, which leads me again to not defining myself as poly as such. It's a loaded term "poly," I just can't stand behind it if I am going to be judged by others as not doing it right because it's not their way. Also I can't stand behind it if I am going to judge others too.

Really it comes down to what is comfortable in loving one another and being intimate and connected. that's it. If it feels good to be involved in the relationship or feels right to be aiming for a certain dynamic, then that should be all that matters...

I could tell yet another story here... hmm. I have about two seconds, so why not...

On my birthday I went our with a bunch of poly friends, my husband, my boyfriend and my tersiary. My tersiary told me he had been seeing another woman and wanted me to know about it as it would effect our relationship possibly. I was effected by this as it takes me further from spending time with him... there is so little time as it is.. my friend who also has two men in her life in the form of a live in boyfriend and another boyfriend decided that night to tell me and my husband that she is attracted to our tersiary, my husband and I share him. Her two boyfriends don't know this apparently, yet she found it acceptable to give him a long kiss as we left the bar.

I was offended and concerned by this as I not only was taking the news I just heard badly, but also that one of her boyfriends is my friend and I knew he didn't know.

I have been told since then that they don't consider themselves poly. So that some how changed how I felt about the situation at the bar. I now can be comfortable with the kiss in terms of the fact that the boyfriends didn't know as they don't identify with poly... or anything for that matter. They seem to be getting along just fine with their arrangement and are loving what they have created, so this makes me feel fine with it too... sometimes my poly standards are inhibiting me to just feel okay with what people do because I forget that they are MY standards, not anyone elses...

talk about over educated at this point. I have come full circle I think.. I knew nothing of poly at one point, then everything came to light and now I am letting it go again.:p

[Ceoli]

Generally, the standards and practices that I follow are more about relationships being healthy than whether or not they fit a label of poly. So it never really bothers me when someone who has a very different relationship structure than mine gives it the same name that I might give mine. I think we try to make things mean more than what they actually mean in order to have a comfortable framework with which to view our choices.

[redpepper]

Generally, the standards and practices that I follow are more about relationships being healthy than whether or not they fit a label of poly. So it never really bothers me when someone who has a very different relationship structure than mine gives it the same name that I might give mine.

Healthy is of course top priority... pushing what is healthy is something I like to do too... one never knows what is healthy until they feel it is such. I have surprised myself with Mono!! :D

Of course healthy has it's boundaries too as abuse is not healthy etc... I'm talking about making our own "rules" of what is healthy for us. We simply have relationship/commitment/family.... poly defined or not. That is what it is.

I think we try to make things mean more than what they actually mean in order to have a comfortable framework with which to view our choices.

I agree, I think often I do that. Then I reach my comfort level and have no use for making things mean more... I think I reached that this month. It will probably cycle though... it seems to do that for me... :rolleyes:

[CielDuMatin]

I [...] have come to the conclusion that different poly practices and standards are really about definition of poly, which leads me again to not defining myself as poly as such. It's a loaded term "poly," I just can't stand behind it if I am going to be judged by others as not doing it right because it's not their way. Also I can't stand behind it if I am going to judge others too.The more discussion I have been having, both on here and other places, the more I am distancing myself from self-identifying as "polyamorous", mostly because I feel that the term is rapidly becoming less and less meaningful, and that it is becoming less and less descriptive of my reality.

Apparently some of the agreements that I have aren't how one should be doing poly, and the fact that I am in a relationship with two people, where one partner is monogamous, but supportive in our relationship, is "unsustainable" as well.

It's getting to the point where there are too many agendas out there and the way some are representing the poly community, or trying to shape it, makes me less and less able to consider myself a part of it.


talk about over educated at this point. I have come full circle I think.. I knew nothing of poly at one point, then everything came to light and now I am letting it go again.:pPlease make room in that boat for me.

{EDIT}
A clarification on re-reading this - I mean that the term is becoming so all-encompassing that it doesn't really say much meaningful about my reality any more, no more than "non-monogamous" would. Hope that explains it better.

[Ravenesque]

Generally, the standards and practices that I follow are more about relationships being healthy than whether or not they fit a label of poly. So it never really bothers me when someone who has a very different relationship structure than mine gives it the same name that I might give mine. I think we try to make things mean more than what they actually mean in order to have a comfortable framework with which to view our choices.

I agree. I'd add that meaning is placed in a manner that is most conducive to one group of polyamorous people while not acknowledging the experience of a other poly people. I find there is a great deal of positivity in accepting these differences then seeking to shut them out. I find this movement amongst some in the poly community rather counterproductive.

~Raven~

[Ceoli]

You know, I hate to be harsh about this, but honestly, if you're feeling so threatened by the ideas and opinions of other people, then perhaps you should seek your community in places other than online forums.

I don't know why, but this forum seems to have grown a culture of defensiveness within it. When one person posts thoughts about what they consider a good and healthy way to be poly, other people start defending themselves against that because it's not the way they do poly so clearly that poster must not be respecting their poly and saying that their way is bad. All of a sudden, anybody who posts something that is in disagreement with others is somehow subverting other people and creating an "unwelcoming atmosphere". It seems that opinions becoming perceived as agendas when people start feeling some kind of subversion or threat from them.

Honestly, an online forum really ceases to work if people are continually asked to suppress their opinions or thoughts for the sake of preserving the "safety" of other people. We simply don't have enough context in the space of words on a web page to fully build spaces that are safe. I make no bones about the fact that I have opinions and I will share them freely. I will especially share opinions and thoughts that challenge inaccurate assumptions. There are a lot of people who describe things that are not my reality and that's fine. I'll only challenge it when those descriptions start making assumptions about my or other people's realities. And I'm happy to be just as challenged by others. And when I'm offended by something someone says on this board, I challenge the idea, not the person. And I appreciate having the space to do so. Inclusiveness isn't built by trying to set controls on how people communicate, it's built by allowing communication to be authentic.

But the thing is, if you don't want to deal with those kinds of challenges, that's fine. Disengage and find something that works better for you.

[rosevett]

it's getting to the point where there are too many agendas out there and the way some are representing the poly community, or trying to shape it, makes me less and less able to consider myself a part of it.


please make room in that boat for me.


me too! !

[CielDuMatin]

You know, I hate to be harsh about this, but honestly, if you're feeling so threatened by the ideas and opinions of other people, then perhaps you should seek your community in places other than online forums.OK, so what you are saying is that if this particular style of community doesn't suit you, then it's best for you to move on and find a different one, and not complain about the one you have left? I find that interesting.

I'm not threatened by the ideas of other people (and not sure if you were referring specifically to me in your post, since you didn't make it clear) - I just get ticked off when people couch their own opinions in global terms of what is "healthy" and what is not, as if they have some moral superiority to suggest what is best for other people.

Either we are trying to build an all-inclusive community here or we are not. If we are, then I think we need to have a little more mutual respect for other people's opinions, and avoid couching things in terms of judgmental absolutes, or passing judgment on other's ideas of poly. If we are not going for all-inclusive, then let's stop pretending that we are, and also stop criticizing others for trying to define it. We can't have it both ways.

Luckily, I think that there are enough diverse people around here that there can be a good, respectful exchange of differing views. Each person has a right to their opinion, and should be treated with respect for that. Isn't that a society that we would like? Mutual respect for differing views, whether monogamous, poly, gay, straight, bi, or superintelligent shades of the colour blue?

This thread is about poly standards and practice differences. My post, therefore, was more about my self-identifying as polyamorous and what that means to me, not a comment about this forum.

[Ceoli]

OK, so what you are saying is that if this particular style of community doesn't suit you, then it's best for you to move on and find a different one, and not complain about the one you have left? I find that interesting.

Actually no. I'm saying that if you find a community style that doesn't suite you, expecting everyone to change so that it does suit you isn't going to be very useful. If that's the case, it would be more useful to move on and find a community in which you don't feel so much of a need for others to change. However, if you choose to engage and challenge those ideas, I'd be all for that. I do that all the time.

I'm not threatened by the ideas of other people (and not sure if you were referring specifically to me in your post, since you didn't make it clear) - I just get ticked off when people couch their own opinions in global terms of what is "healthy" and what is not, as if they have some moral superiority to suggest what is best for other people.

I'd love to see an example of what you're talking about here.

Either we are trying to build an all-inclusive community here or we are not. If we are, then I think we need to have a little more mutual respect for other people's opinions, and avoid couching things in terms of judgmental absolutes, or passing judgment on other's ideas of poly. If we are not going for all-inclusive, then let's stop pretending that we are, and also stop criticizing others for trying to define it. We can't have it both ways.

Mutual respect is an interesting term to use. Many people even have different definitions of what is respectful. Respectful communication in Alabama looks very different than respectful communication in New York City. What exactly is passing judgement and how have you been judged here?

Luckily, I think that there are enough diverse people around here that there can be a good, respectful exchange of differing views. Each person has a right to their opinion, and should be treated with respect for that. Isn't that a society that we would like? Mutual respect for differing views, whether monogamous, poly, gay, straight, bi, or superintelligent shades of the colour blue?

I'm all for a respectful exchange of views. I find it interesting that if my views are very different, often times I very suddenly get called out for being disrespectful. There doesn't seem to be mutual respect in that dynamic. Mutual respect does not absolve people of taking responsibility for their own reactions and triggers.

This thread is about poly standards and practice differences. My post, therefore, was more about my self-identifying as polyamorous and what that means to me, not a comment about this forum.

If that's the case, great. But in that post, I saw a lot of energy devoted to the problems caused for you by other people, whether they're on this forum or not. I'm merely saying that it is just as disrespectful to expect other people to withhold their opinions because you don't like them as it is for other people to expect you to change to suit them. But being opinionated is not the same as expecting someone to change to suit them.

[NeonKaos]

I just get ticked off when people couch their own opinions in global terms of what is "healthy" and what is not, as if they have some moral superiority to suggest what is best for other people.

I'm curious about why you think that suggesting what is healthy or best for someone else automatically implies that the person doing the suggesting feels "morally superior"? Even if they do "feel" morally superior, that is not the same as advocating that the suggestee should be destroyed or forced to comply with their ideal. I guess I fail to realize why some people feel threatened by "being judged" if they are secure in their position and values to begin with.

[redpepper]

I feel a bit bullied on this forum of late for sure. I feel that I need to watch every word I say and prepare to do battle. Yes, I do feel threatened. I do feel I need to suppress my opinions and thoughts. I quite often feel tag team bullied by "friends" on here as if they are PMing behind my back to figure out ways to discredit what I say and to show me and others up. Then I feel as if there are some virtual "high fives" going on when their is success in that.

I'm all for discussion. I'm all for hearing what people have to say, but if that opinion comes from a place of "all knowing" then that threatens me, then I feel bullied...

This works two ways. It seems people tend to threaten and then that person threatens in return...

I'm trying hard not to do that, so I just avoid and ignore most of the time. I don't know what others do, but to me that is my coping mechanism.....

Perhaps looking at our own words and what we say would help. I find it interesting that people slam others with the very words/theories they say are a threatening to them. Who has created the defensiveness, who is trying to control, who is creating that suppression of our thoughts and opinions? If we are all feeling like that, should we not ALL be checking our words?

[Ceoli]

Well to be honest, I've felt bullied plenty of times here. I've felt like people are ok with me as long as I say what they want and how they want it said. As soon as I speak a truth for me that's challenging to someone else's truth, all of a sudden coming from some "all knowing place" or I'm slamming someone or being disrespectful, not compassionate and somehow don't really "feel" things. Yet other people speak truths that slam on my truths all the time here. Instead of being bullied by that, I challenge the ideas that slam me. Some people see that as attacking the people. I don't. And when I don't step down from such challenges, somehow I'm creating conflict. I choose not to edit myself because for me that would be dishonest communication.

I choose not to step down from such challenges and remain true to my ideals of honest, authentic, open and respectful communication.

[redpepper]

I choose not to step down from such challenges and remain true to my ideals of honest, authentic, open and respectful communication.

Not everyone wants to be challenged though, and there is no need to step down from what you believe. No one is asking you to, at least I am not. Often I have the same beliefs as those that I feel threatened by...I do find however communication on here to be honest, authentic, and open.... it's the respectful part that is sometimes lacking for me.

I'm not saying I am always respectful either, just that if we are to get anywhere, I believe that everyone needs to check their respect and come from a place of loving and caring about people in the poly community rather than bringing up their agenda to change others to their way of thinking. Change comes about in me when I feel respected and safe, not when I feel challenged. I just shut down.

We all have shit we work on, to be told you have shit to work on, you better work on it, is disrespectful. If I have an opinion that the sky is gray (which it is here quite a bit) and someone says I disagree the sky is blue, then that sounds challenging to me... they don't know where I live, what goes on for me and where I am at on my path... if they were to say, "I feel for you that all you see is a gray sky, I see a blue one and this is why." That comes from a place of respect for me and where I am at.

[JonnyAce]

creating conflict. I choose not to edit myself because for me that would be dishonest communication.



for a moment of levity, this amused me b'c you edited this post.

(please take this in the joking manner for which it was intended :p )

[Ceoli]

for a moment of levity, this amused me b'c you edited this post.

(please take this in the joking manner for which it was intended :p )

HA! Very true!

[Ceoli]

I do find however communication on here to be honest, authentic, and open.... it's the respectful part that is sometimes lacking for me.

I'm not saying I am always respectful either, just that if we are to get anywhere, I believe that everyone needs to check their respect and come from a place of loving and caring about people in the poly community rather than bringing up their agenda to change others to their way of thinking. Change comes about in me when I feel respected and safe, not when I feel challenged. I just shut down.

At what point does an opinion become and agenda to change other people's way of thinking? I would suggest that that is more in the perception than the intent pretty much every time it's experienced on any side.

[crisare]

At what point does an opinion become and agenda to change other people's way of thinking?What's the point of discussing and debating things if not to (in some way and at some level) attempt to influence people to change their way of thinking? Isn't that why we put opinions out there ... to influence in some way those who are reading? Otherwise, why bother? I guess unless it's just ego wanting others to know what you think and feel.

[redpepper]

Opinion becomes agenda to me, when I hear it presented as "I am right, and you are wrong because I have had these experiences and done these things and I believe you haven't." It comes from a place of "I know everything and you know nothing."

When I ask a question on here I invite peoples opinions and know that some will be ones I don't agree with, but when I make a statement I expect to be respected for the opinion, even if someone doesn't agree. It's not okay for me to be talked to as if I don't have any background in my beliefs and opinions. I find it disrespectful. It's as if my life and experience has meant nothing to this point and that what I have experienced means nothing. All it takes is to have the language changed when I am approached. I totally get that people have a different opinion, I am not a total wimp and unable to hear them. I hear better when spoken to in terms of "look at this idea with me, this is what I think, this is my experience, isn't it amazing that it's different, what do you make of it?" That to me is inviting and respectful, not shutting me down and making me feel threatened.

Again, I often read on here stuff that people have written in defense that is coming from the same place as each other, yet they are so caught up in making their point that they have missed the fact they are talking about the same thing.

[redpepper]

What's the point of discussing and debating things if not to (in some way and at some level) attempt to influence people to change their way of thinking? Isn't that why we put opinions out there ... to influence in some way those who are reading? Otherwise, why bother? I guess unless it's just ego wanting others to know what you think and feel.

The point is to figure stuff out for myself. I can hear what people say and change my mind. I do often, but only when I am not challenged and when I feel safe to take away the information I have learned and come up with my own thoughts....

If I feel I am being MADE to sit and listen, I tune out and eventually walk away.

I totally talk about what I believe in order to make change. I have always done that on here... I have changed because of what other people have said too. It's about give and take. It's about community and coming together on a common theme for me.

I guess the whole thing is about respecting that other people are intelligent and will pick up what they want from me. Either they will pick up that they agree, or that they don't. It will strengthen what their thoughts regardless.

That is what we are all here for isn't it?

Otherwise, why bother having a forum at all.

[Ravenesque]

I have seen it said here and in other forums that polyamorous people are not allowing there to be a safe space to discuss polyamory simply for having a differing opinion.

It resembles something like this:

Person A: "I disagree. This is my poly view. But I understand others have different views than mine."
Person B: "You're not allowing me a safe place to speak about polyamory because you don't agree with me. You're attacking me. I will only feel safe if no one disagrees with me."

So then it is advocated that differing opinions are shut down under the guise of making others feel safe. How can discussion occur in such an environment where differing opinions are not allowed to happen? A victim attitude is then acquired. "Your opinion is hurting me because it is not the same as mine."

Next an assertion is being made that if polyamory doesn't only define certain polyamorous experiences i.e. only Person B's experience, but actually encompasses all polyamorous experiences including Person A and B, the word polyamory loses all meaning.

I left another forum because of these very views. It was stated that "an unsafe space" was created if anyone expressed a poly view which deviated from the view of the moderators and owners.

I don't understand either of these mentalities. It seems driven by a need to remove all views that differ and treating these opinions as threats. That to me makes an unwelcoming environment.

I'm curious about why you think that suggesting what is healthy or best for someone else automatically implies that the person doing the suggesting feels "morally superior"? Even if they do "feel" morally superior, that is not the same as advocating that the suggestee should be destroyed or forced to comply with their ideal. I guess I fail to realize why some people feel threatened by "being judged" if they are secure in their position and values to begin with.

There is irony here. What I have viewed here is that those who are being described as acting "morally superior" have not declared any version of polyamory lesser than their own however they do advocate an expansive view of being accepting of other views on polyamory even if it differs from their own. It is then the ones who make these assertions who seek to narrow what polyamory can encompass and declare that the word becomes meaningless if others do not agree with that.

~Raven~

[redpepper]

I left another forum, The Birdcage, because of these very views. It was stated that "unwelcoming atmospheres" and "unsafe places" were created if anyone expressed a poly view which deviated from theirs, the view of the moderators and owners.

That is not what this forum is about and I find it surprising that any public forum would say that... I will take your word for it.

All I am saying is that I intend to watch my words and how I approach others who have not asked for an opinion that is different than theirs. That is no easy task as it is hard to talk about an opinion that is different to someone who believes so strongly. I ask for the same thought when I am approached with someones differing view... please, add to what I say, expand on it. That is what it is all about for me, but please don't talk to me like my opinions are stupid, please don't gang up on me because I have different thoughts on something and please respect that I am a person on my own journey. I am here to learn from all of you not to make enemies and divisions....

A bit of friendliness and humour would go a long way too I think.... I will add that to my "agenda" :D

[Ravenesque]

That is not what this forum is about

And I am grateful that is the case. Forums where varied views can be expressed are needed and a positive thing. I am glad such a place as this forum exists.


All I am saying is that I intend to watch my words and how I approach others who have not asked for an opinion that is different than theirs. That is no easy task as it is hard to talk about an opinion that is different to someone who believes so strongly. I ask for the same thought when I am approached with someones differing view... please, add to what I say, expand on it. That is what it is all about for me, but please don't talk to me like my opinions are stupid, please don't gang up on me because I have different thoughts on something and please respect that I am a person on my own journey. I am here to learn from all of you not to make enemies and divisions....

In a forum discussion occurs, therefore differing opinions will occur as well. Good communication skills involve accepting the existence of views that do not align with our own. This seems an even more pertinent skill to learn within a forum. It is unrealistic to expect discussion will only consist of views which align with our own. If certain views in discussion cause unpleasant emotions, perhaps it is a time to process why those emotions are occurring without projecting blame on to other people simply for stating their view.

~Raven~

[redpepper]

In a forum discussion occurs, therefore differing opinions will occur as well. Good communication skills involve accepting the existence of views that do not align with our own. This seems an even more pertinent skill to learn within a forum. It is unrealistic to expect discussion will only consist of views which align with our own. If certain views in discussion cause unpleasant emotions, perhaps it is a time to process why those emotions are occurring without projecting blame on to other people simply for stating their view.


This makes me think that you are understanding me... you say it so well. I'm glad that someone is on the same page as me. I like your add on of people being aware that they may need to process on their own before jumping to conclusions about stuff that isn't directed towards them.

This is a great way to work on communicating. I have certainly learned a lot about how to communicate better because of this forum. thanks for pointing that out.

[Ceoli]

A bit of friendliness and humour would go a long way too I think.... I will add that to my "agenda" :D

I'll admit that the repeated times I've been lambasted for holding to some very important fundamental views of mine has probably taken a bite out of my friendliness and humor- or at least packed it away somewhere. I will endeavor to rekindle or unpack that if I can.


In a forum discussion occurs, therefore differing opinions will occur as well. Good communication skills involve accepting the existence of views that do not align with our own. This seems an even more pertinent skill to learn within a forum. It is unrealistic to expect discussion will only consist of views which align with our own. If certain views in discussion cause unpleasant emotions, perhaps it is a time to process why those emotions are occurring without projecting blame on to other people simply for stating their view.

Amen.

[redpepper]

Happy new year. Hugs to you Ceoli. Kisses too. :)I'll admit that the repeated times I've been lambasted for holding to some very important fundamental views of mine has probably taken a bite out of my friendliness and humor- or at least packed it away somewhere. I will endeavor to rekindle or unpack that if I can.



Amen.

[dakid]

redpepper its fine for you have your opinions, judgements even. we all have to make judgements every day and do so. as a good friend once memorably said to me "keep an open mind - but not so wide open that your brain falls out".

just be prepared for others to judge you, form opinions about you too, which may not be hugely complimentary. it's only fair, as well as realistic, isn't it.

i am certainly forming lots of opinions and judgements about the small-mindedness of some folk on here, and feeling pity for them at the same time. makes me glad to be me, and to live here, instead of in their world.

nonetheless i agree that we all have a right to our opinions.

can't remember who said it but there's a famous quote i am fond of that goes something like this "i may disagree with everything you say and think but i will fight to the death for your right to say it". that's pretty much where i am coming from.

[Ravenesque]

can't remember who said it but there's a famous quote i am fond of that goes something like this "i may disagree with everything you say and think but i will fight to the death for your right to say it". that's pretty much where i am coming from.

Voltaire my good lady. He was responding to Rousseau.

He said (and I am sure it is a rough translation from French):

"I do not agree with a word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it"

or

"I may not agree with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

Brilliant reference dakid. I am glad you made it. It made me smile to see others with similar values. I hold this one dear to my heart.

I would not feel so secure placing my right to express my opinion in the hands of some here.

~Raven~

[dakid]

thank you! it always frustrates me when i partially remember a quote and/or forget who said it.
i agree with what you say, sadly, but live in hope because people can and do learn and change with time.
glad you are here ravenesque!
x

[dakid]

The Forum is a resource for anybody that self-identifies with Polyamory and who has a connection to New York State. Similar to other local communities, there are regularly-scheduled get-togethers. The rules for the forum were set up by the founding members of the forum and are publicly available at http://birdcage.wikidot.com/.

does that mean i would be welcome? i have a connection to NY state and self-identify with polyamory, but am not keen to enter another virtual space where i will be told what i practise is not polyamory. how is polyamory defined at the birdcage?
see i am not asking what happened in the past, but what the stance is now. i want to know if i would be welcome, and my views respected.

[rosevett]

The 'definition' of polyamory runs rampant within that group as well - so you're input would be of interest as well.

[dakid]

The 'definition' of polyamory runs rampant within that group as well - so you're input would be of interest as well.

all respect but i have no idea what these words mean - a definition running rampant? could you clarify perhaps?

thanks x

[CielDuMatin]

does that mean i would be welcome? i have a connection to NY state and self-identify with polyamoryThen yes you would be welcome. :)

[rosevett]

all respect but i have no idea what these words mean - a definition running rampant? could you clarify perhaps?

thanks x

Ya - sometimes my words aren't clear - I come across much better in person..let's see - what I was trying to say - that as much as we see people defining polyamory here in multiple threads - it happens there as well.

so individual's 'defining polyamory' as they each need it to be defined, just on a smaller scale - the birdcage isn't as big as this or other sites.

did that help?

[dakid]

kind of. what i am hearing is that yes this is another forum where some will tell me that i am not in polyamorous relationship, where my identity and lifestyle may not be respected. perhaps i am misunderstanding? hope so.
x

[rosevett]

having a difference of opinion is no reason to be disrespected and I have not seen that within the forums. So unless you are personally doing disrespectful things then you wouldn't be disrespected.

I'm curious as to how often you would choose not to go someplace because you think you will be disrespected, and not just for your lifestyle choices.

[CielDuMatin]

what i am hearing is that yes this is another forum where some will tell me that i am not in polyamorous relationship, where my identity and lifestyle may not be respected. perhaps i am misunderstanding? hope so.
xYes I think you are misunderstanding. I think we are as tolerant as most sites out there when it comes to definitions of poly.

[crisare]

potentially to warn others similarly should i ever hear them talk of joining it...
So you would badmouth a site to others, having never visited it and knowing nothing of it other than one side of a disagreement that someone has dragged into an unrelated forum?

And yet you have said that you "pity" people on this forum who aren't as open minded as you think they should be or for making judgments that you think they shouldn't be making? Didn't you say just a few posts ago:

i am certainly forming lots of opinions and judgements about the small-mindedness of some folk on here, and feeling pity for them at the same time. makes me glad to be me, and to live here, instead of in their world.

Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy here?

[dakid]

thank you. i take all of your points on board.

when i mentioned warning others, i simply meant telling a friend something like "be careful because you may find others on that site who will tell you what you do is not poly" - nothing more and nothing less.

it can be painful to have one's reality denied. i and many of my friends grew up queer and are still healing from wounds inflicted on our sense of self. therefore i may well still raise this issue about a website if i hear from someone i trust that they have felt their reality denied on that website.

i don't think this makes me small-minded, and i do indeed intend to check it out for myself as soon as i get time to do so.

i would never make a claim i could not back up but i would tell a friend the facts i know - that one other person has shared a particular experience. i can now add that others have shared other experiences. i would of course always leave it to said friend to make up their own minds, and would at no point be "badmouthing" the site simply sharing what i have learnt about it recently.

x

[dakid]

with my queer background i am used to folk self-identifying and that being given utmost respect. so i guess i am struggling with this need to create distinctions between for example swinging and poly, instead of acceptance that if a person or persons identify their relationship as poly then it is poly. regardless of what their sexual and/or social activities are at the moment.

it seems i have made some mistakes here on this thread, in sticking my nose into something which i don't really understand - ie the history of the birdcage website. there seems to be pain here around this subject and i am sorry for any sad memories i may have triggered in my clumsiness.

x

[crisare]

Dakid ... I appreciate your willingness to step back and recognize things in yourself. I will say straight up that I'm not affiliated with the other site mentioned, I've never visited it, I don't know anything about the people involved in the struggle other than what has been posted here. But I have run message boards before and I know how things can get blown WAY out of proportion. Your use of the word "warn" in your initial comment was what triggered my response to you. It's one thing to say you've heard about the board and here's what you've heard vs. warning someone off of it. I appreciate you acknowledging the difference as well.

i am struggling with this need to create distinctions between for example swinging and poly, instead of acceptance that if a person or persons identify their relationship as poly then it is poly. regardless of what their sexual and/or social activities are at the moment
I am speaking only for myself here, but this is my take on the difference:

First of all - if someone wants to self-identify as poly and continue to swing as well, I don't have any issue with that.

I am currently ... exploring, let's say ... a relationship with someone who swings. He and his wife have multiple sexual partners, some of whom are casual hookups and some of whom are closer friends. But they do not practice a lifestyle wherein they build close romantic relationships with their partners. To me that's the fundamental difference between poly and swinging and he and I have discussed this in depth and we both agree with this distinction.

He and I have become very close friends and recently realized that we both have stronger feelings for each other. We have talked about the fact that I am very close to considering him a partner for me; I love him and I desire him and he is a major part of my life.

His wife is not interested in pursuing a relationship of that kind - with me or with anyone. She will continue to swing with him with other couples. He and I will continue to have a relationship that is additional to that. I will be secondary to his primary relationship with his wife.

If his wife were to identify as poly simply because she swings and because her husband was involved in a poly relationship, I would have an issue with that - because she is not poly. She may be a metamour to her husband's poly relationship, but she herself has no desire to build a strong, lasting, romantic relationship with her partners. She's happy to enjoy the casual contact, perhaps be friends, and that's it. She doesn't want the connection to move past that.

I, on the other hand, have NO desire whatsoever to swing. None. I personally cannot appreciate or enjoy that kind of casual sexual contact, even if it were with friends. He and I have discussed this extensively - that I have no problem at all with someone else doing it - he and his wife or whoever - but I know my comfort and trust levels require more of a relationship before I can move to that level.

To me that is the fundamental difference between poly and swinging ... and when someone who swings says their lifestyle is poly, I believe it creates confusion among those who don't understand the difference.

I don't think that defining a term means you're being exclusionary, unless you choose to see it that way. And then I'd question why someone would feel the need to use that word and would feel excluded by not being included in the definition of that word. What is it about THAT word that you are upset that it doesn't describe you? And why is there not another word that describes you better?

But then again, I am fascinated by language and I believe in having precise language - how else are we to communicate? So I don't see definition as being exclusionary - I see it as an opportunity to be precise and clear and to understand and be understood.

[dakid]

what upsets me is the part where a relationship has to be "lasting" in order to be deemed poly. (lasting how long it seems nobody is willing to say).

i can love and be intimate with someone for just one night or for several years, and i would see that one-night of love as very different to swinging. i have in the past been more of a swinger and have no problem with being seen as one, it just isn't accurate to where i am at now in my interractions with others.

as it happens i do have two ongoing, lasting relationships which i think you would perceive as poly. i also had a five-year fcuk buddy relationship which some might not, but i do - because there was/is love there (just not the romantic kind). i may tomorrow choose to have loving intimate sex with somebody as a one-off, and i would identify that as poly. that's the thing...

x

[redpepper]

So, ummm, I don't really know what this is all about, but it seems to me that when someone says they have a problem with something a group has done, that most people will go and check it out for themselves. Especially on line when it's a click away.

Great advertizing for another forum really if you ask me.

nothing like drama to point people right to the very thing that caused the drama...

it's kind of like the thread I created about Ashley Madison. A dating site for cheaters. I abhor the whole idea of it and thought, before I wrote the thread that if I write it then someone will go and check it out and perhaps use it :eek: But I figure that most people are smart enough to form their own opinion on things and that I should treat everyone as if they have the smarts to make up their own mind. Several people checked it out and we discussed it at length.... the more the discussion the better because the more people will have a chance to decide for themselves.

[dakid]

asolutely redpepper. i will certainly be checking it out myself! however it will take me somewhat more than one click, i expect i will need to read quite a lot before i can get a sense of the site. so i'm not planning to do it tonight (i am already multi-tasking somewhat as i write this!) and would rather give it proper time and respect. wish i had not posted what i did before doing so, but its done now and i have apologised for any hurt i may have caused. i did mean that sincerely.
x

[redpepper]

asolutely redpepper. i will certainly be checking it out myself! however it will take me somewhat more than one click, i expect i will need to read quite a lot before i can get a sense of the site. so i'm not planning to do it tonight (i am already multi-tasking somewhat as i write this!) and would rather give it proper time and respect. wish i had not posted what i did before doing so, but its done now and i have apologised for any hurt i may have caused. i did mean that sincerely.
x

yes I'm sure it will take more than one click. ;) I am going to check it out later too. Back to multi-taking myself.... with a wicked hangover.... *ouch*

[crisare]

Ok, I am honestly trying to understand your point of view here. what upsets me is the part where a relationship has to be "lasting" in order to be deemed poly. (lasting how long it seems nobody is willing to say).Why does it upset you? Also, where in my post did I say "lasting". Let's make sure that we are discussing the same thing and that you're not misreading or misrepresenting what I've said. I specifically said that my love and I have discussed that poly involves: "build[ing] close romantic relationships with their partners" I never said "lasting" ... although I will agree that "building" does imply that there is time and effort involved that would indicate a relationship would last more than a short period of time.

i can love and be intimate with someone for just one night or for several years, and i would see that one-night of love as very different to swinging.How is it different from swinging? I truly truly don't understand that. If you are not building a relationship that moves past one night of sexual contact then how is that not swinging? Or if you are basing that relationship on sex w/out the intention of building a romantic partnership, how is that different from swinging?

i may tomorrow choose to have loving intimate sex with somebody as a one-off, and i would identify that as poly. that's the thing...But a one-off isn't a relationship. The sex can be loving and caring and considerate, but it's still one-off, one night stand sex, right? So in what way is that not swinging?

I guess what I'm seeing here is that you don't want to use the word "swinging" to describe your actions - for whatever reason. So it appears to me that you choose to use the word "poly" to describe all of your sexual contact, regardless of the type of relationship it is, with the specific intention of avoiding calling it swinging. You say that you have no problem with being seen as one ... but it doesn't describe how you interact now. So can you explain to me better how what you do is NOT swinging?

Edited to say .. I really don't want my post to come across as combative or hostile or anything. I'm just confused by your position and I'm really wanting to understand better what it is you're saying and how you are defining the relationships in your life.

[Ravenesque]

with my queer background i am used to folk self-identifying and that being given utmost respect. so i guess i am struggling with this need to create distinctions between for example swinging and poly, instead of acceptance that if a person or persons identify their relationship as poly then it is poly. regardless of what their sexual and/or social activities are at the moment.

I was involved with the queer group at my university as part of the executive board. I do understand where you're coming from. Self-identification is an important part of my perspective as well.

There honestly isn't a need to create distinctions. The two communities overlap in many places and there are individuals who identify with both. This push for distinctions seems to stem from a desire by some again to give polyamory some sort of credibility or to avoid "cheapening" it usually due to sex-negative views.

There are a myriad of views such as the one Tristan Taormino expressed about the two in Opening Up.

Susan Wright, spokesperson and founder of the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom (http://www.ncsfreedom.org/), expresses her view in an interview with Kasidie, a swinger magazine. Here is the link:

http://magazine.kasidie.com/2008/10/interview-with-susan-wright/

Kasidie: Not to long ago, I ran across a blog post on a polyamory website, where someone had written, “It’s no secret that there has been bad blood between the polyamory and he swinging community for years.” To which I thought, really?! I had no idea! As a swinger I always thought that polys were wonderful… Any swinger I know has had only had positive responses about polys. So I spoke directly to a polyamorist and was told that polys don’t really like swingers because they feel it’s cheapening their lifestyle. Polys are about having multiple emotional relationships. They don’t want to be mistaken as swingers, who they believe are all about meaningless sex, not love. But I don’t really see that the two groups are all that different. At least not in what they want - Tolerance, acceptance and sexual freedom.
click to see more about NCSF's coalition partners

Susan: I agree. I think swinging is basically polyamory. It’s many loves. It’s a subset of polyamory. Swinging tends to be more couple oriented, while polyamory tends to be more individual oriented. That seems to be the way the two communities have fallen apart. I have sometimes heard sentiments like that from poly individuals talking about swinging as if it was just casual sex. But I know plenty of people in the swing lifestyle that have long standing relationships with other people. They get together regularly outside of just sex and have formed very close bonds of friendship. You can’t call that “casual” when you’ve been spending time with someone for 15 years. I think there’s misconceptions the polyamory community has about swingers as much as the mainstream does.

There are those who say there can be polyamory without sex and there are those who say there can be swinging without love. And there are those who are various places in between in perspective and in the forms their relationships take. It is such an amazing thing.

There is merit in accepting the broader multifaceted nature of these communities and of the world.

what upsets me is the part where a relationship has to be "lasting" in order to be deemed poly. (lasting how long it seems nobody is willing to say).

i can love and be intimate with someone for just one night or for several years, and i would see that one-night of love as very different to swinging. i have in the past been more of a swinger and have no problem with being seen as one, it just isn't accurate to where i am at now in my interractions with others.

as it happens i do have two ongoing, lasting relationships which i think you would perceive as poly. i also had a five-year fcuk buddy relationship which some might not, but i do - because there was/is love there (just not the romantic kind). i may tomorrow choose to have loving intimate sex with somebody as a one-off, and i would identify that as poly. that's the thing...

x

Remember, others do not define polyamory for you. Others do not validate your relationships. You are the one who defines it for yourself. Who cares if anyone else says "that's not polyamory. You're not in a polyamorous relationship. You're misguided." It becomes a problem when others seek to enforce their views and opinions on others and invalidate their relationships because it does not take the form that theirs does.

Finding others who are on the same wavelength as you is what matters when it comes to forming relationships. Do not doubt yourself.

The configuration you describe is as poly as any other relationship. The freedom to ethically love a you will is beautiful.

~Raven~

[ImaginaryIllusion]

This is a Moderation note to members who may be, or have been affiliated with the other site.

The moderation staff has determined that the airing of laundry from other forums, and continued conflicts arising from disagreements elsewhere does not need to be dragged into this community. We feel they are liable to lead to the threads becoming toxic.

Therefore the main posts dealing with discussing he-said-she-said have been unapproved for now pending decision of if they will be sent back for moderated revision or stricken entirely.

Any questions can be directed to a moderator who will be happy to assist.

We'd appreciate all members involved to find another means to work out their differences. Thank-you for your cooperation in this matter.

Regards,
-ImaginaryIllusion
Moderator

[ImaginaryIllusion]

The original post has been reapproved with modifications by the original author to remove specific mention of the board and persons involved. Hopefully this is sufficient to allow discussion to continue without further involvement from the moderation staff.

Anyone else who's posts were not tagged directly in moderation are requested to check their posts to try and clean up references to specific names for posterity.

If there are any questions or concerns from those involved, please do not hesitate to contact a moderator by PM to discuss it further. Myself and YGirl are currently the Mods on scene.

Regards,

-ImaginaryIllusion
Moderator

[CielDuMatin]

ImaginaryIllusion thanks for your and YGirl's work on this sensitive topic.

[Estar]

I feel connection first and then look for common ground. I don’t seek out common ground to form that connection.
How do I deal with someone who has very different views than my own?
I accept their opinions and if I feel connection I look for that common ground like a pig looking for truffles…. Redpepper is a major case in point. WOW are we different, but wow are we connected!! There is something in her that is worth all the energy I have to find that common ground. Luckily our energies seem synced even when our opinions often don't :) The biggest part of that common ground is our energy...our love.

If I don’t feel that connection or sense they intend on persisting on moot points of difference…..I just don’t….I move on. There are way too many people in this world for me to get caught up on trying to connect with one of them unless there is that something about them. I don’t feel the need.


Dear Mono,

I get really moved by your writing. It makes me think of my love and me. He is so different he always knows the right questions to ask and the important issues to adress with people. While I just like people (or not) and can have really nice conversations without addressing the topics that are obviously of importance.

What even more hit me was that my relationship is draining at the moment. We have a lot of fights over minor and big issues. And it seems that our energy is just missing. The energy that was always just there, making connection simple. It seems sometimes our commongrounds is all there is left.

I am not going to leave us there bleeding to death. I want to find out what the drain is and block it. Our differences in communication on one hand, our differences in needs in a relationship on the other (he poly, I mono), and I probably will need some more hands...
It is the connection, it's that enormous love I experience when the energy is flowing and not the commongrounds that makes me want to invest all my time and energy.

Though I must add that commongrounds like ours, including a way of life, mutual enterprise and children is more than enough for most people to do what one can.

While writing this it occurs to me like RedPepper writes it is also me thinking I'm not good enough. That I have to be, communicate like my husband to be "good" and give my everything. So I have to accept that my way of being and communicating is also OK. And also that his way of loving, his needs are also OK. Just acceptance.... It is so simple and difficult at the same time.

Estar :cool:

[dakid]

crisare i guess if i am upset by some of the posts here (not just yours i should add) it is because i read them as saying that i am not polyamorous and therefore not a part of this community. also because the unspoken message reflects wider society in that it rejects what it can't understand, or what is different to the writers own experience. above all because i see a prejudice against sex that is outside of an established relationship in a particular format.

sex negativity has been historically very dangerous, even fatal, for people i consider allies such as gay men, sexually active women, etc. i fear for myself and others when i see such views continuing, especially within an "alternative" community like this one.

like most people i have a desire to find connections, a community, that i can be part of. i got my hopes up here that i would find somewhat like-minded people (not that i would agree with everybody all the time, but that there would be a certain baseline eg. sex-positive, anti-racist, etc). i was therefore upset to find (or to feel that) there were prejudices amongst folk here on a subject that is so important to me.

most of what i have wanted to say on this subject i think i have said either here or in the thread about differences between poly and slutdom. the discussion on that thread seems to be ongoing and is proving fascinating to me, so i think i will stick to that thread now and not duplicate myself here.

here's to mutual understanding, regardless of the struggle it may take to get there!

x

[dakid]

also, strictly speaking a one-night-stand is a relationship between two people who relate to each other for the evening or the night. i realise that's not how the word relationship is usually used, but in terms of dictionary definitions it is correct. they do relate with each other for the period of time that they spend together and therefore it is a relationship albeit a relatively short-lived one.

chemists talk of the relationship between substances, academics talk of the relationship between ideas, the word relationship has many many meanings.

i have a relationship with my bank, it isn't a loving or a sexual one but it is a relationship! my mother has a business relationship with her company partners.

i can love someone that i've known for just one night, i haven't many times and its been a while since it last happened but i have - so therefore i know it is something i am capable of. perhaps you haven't experienced this, perhaps its an alien idea to you or something you could never experience, none of that negates the fact that i have experienced it.

i have also experienced loveless sex, i am not claiming that all sexual experiences are loving, and i do not seek to negate or deny your experiences/your reality. i hope you will afford me the same respect.

x

[Xared]

I am what I have begun describing as "fully polyamorous," there's probably a better term for it, which I will start using once I am made aware of what it is. Essentially, it means that I believe in placing as few restrictions as possible on the formation and development of relationships. While I realize true equality in multiple relationships is difficult, I do my best. I try to avoid using terms like "primary" and "secondary" (which, apparently, I'm not good at), and rather think or relationships as "different." If a partner of mine and I fall into the roles of a "primary," "secondary," or "just friends" arrangement; it is because of the natural development of the relationship, not because of a conscious decision, at least not on my part.

I also don't believe in "romantic love," as it were. "Romance" carries with it expectations and unrealistic ideals that I want no part of. I prefer to see relationships for what they are, not what I would like them to be. Relationships can feel romantic, but I do my best to not let it cloud my judgement. If I did believe in romance, I would probably be mono. So yeah, disillusionment with monogamy is a big part of what got me to this point.

While I've stated I like to keep the restrictions to a minimum, A few are necessary:

Protection must be used. This is just a good idea all-around.

Everything is open for discussion. Even the difficult subjects. Especially the difficult subjects. It doesn't work otherwise.

I am willing to change, but I change for one person and one person alone: myself. If I do something a partner doesn't like, it can be discussed. However, don't make demands.

Anyone I date is my equal. I don't control them, and they don't control me. Despite how things may turn out, everyone is also equal in my eyes. I'm not willing to give one partner priority over others or a higher status. Whoever comes first is the one that needs it most at the time.

Who my partners associate with and what they do is really none of my business. Unless it affects me directly, I don't really need to know. I'd prefer if my partners feel the same. Everyone is entitled to some privacy. I'd like to know, but only if one is willing to share. If another relationship is going to be an ongoing thing, I'd like to meet them at some point, but I can understand if others feel awkward about it, and I'm willing to wait until they're ready.

[clairegoad]

The answers to your questions are buried in this category: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5

You realize, of course, that the opinions/rules/comments that someone posts may change--- as they get more experience or different partners.

Keep reading... I know many don't like the primary/secondary/tertiary designations. They are useful. I realize everyone wants to be equal... but Some are more equal than others (thank you, George Orwell).

I am a secondary in a triad. My couple has been together for almost 17 years, married over a decade. They are emotionally, financially, legally and morally tied together. I've known them for about a year, have dated them for 9 months. They've always been poly, so they are far more experienced at this than I am. And frankly, this relationship has been quite emotionally smooth...

"Fully polyamorous?" That almost seems judgmental-- "I'm more polyamorous than you...." I love hearing about the variations in poly. This is a journey, it sounds like you've reached the destination.

You're talking about philosophical poly... which isn't as interesting to me as practical poly. We can sit around and imagine what it would be like...but real life is better.

[Xared]

The answers to your questions are buried in this category: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5
Yes, I had considered that. Thank you though. If it doesn't already exist, I figured a "how this stuff works" summary thread would be helpful.

You realize, of course, that the opinions/rules/comments that someone posts may change--- as they get more experience or different partners.
Yes, that is true. However, at any point in time, an individual has some idea of what works for them and what doesn't, even if they've never thought about it much. Everything changes over time, but that in itself does not make one's thoughts at the present moment lack in meaning.

Keep reading... I know many don't like the primary/secondary/tertiary designations. They are useful. I realize everyone wants to be equal... but Some are more equal than others (thank you, George Orwell).
Yeah, pretty much. Striving for equality is the most that can be done a lot of times. It's difficult to actually achieve.

"Fully polyamorous?" That almost seems judgmental-- "I'm more polyamorous than you...." I love hearing about the variations in poly. This is a journey, it sounds like you've reached the destination.
I don't like the implications of the term either, and it's gone once I think of something better. Maybe "freely polyamorous." More doesn't necessarily mean better. It could be said that those that place more restrictions on loving others than I do are "less polyamorous," but that doesn't mean I'm better than them, or that they're doing it wrong; just that they do it differently. And yeah, it is a journey. I may have reached a destination, but there are many other places to go.

You're talking about philosophical poly... which isn't as interesting to me as practical poly. We can sit around and imagine what it would be like...but real life is better.
There's more to philosophy than the hypothetical. Speculating does play a part, but knowledge, experience, and wisdom play much bigger roles. People tend to use the word "philosophy" to mean "shit I thought up with no basis in reality," but I was using the word in it's "the pursuit of knowledge" capacity. Everything I stated in my initial post, while some of it is speculation on how to avoid past mistakes, is mostly based on experience. Keeping what works and discarding that which does not. In the sense I intended, philosophical polyamory is practical polyamory.

Sorry if any of this came off as argumentative. I was clarifying my meaning, not telling you you're wrong.