Greetings

[smilnlol]

It is kind of a funny story how I have came to join this site. My husband(Quath) has been active in Polyamory in his past relationships but I have not. Over the years ( married 5 together 7) I have been open and supportive as my husband told me all about his life and the life in a polyamourous relationships. I have no problems with the life style except I don't believe it is for me. So long story short, I wanted a puppy so I promised I would join a polyamory site if he let me get a puppy. I know, it sounds bad but here I am, good to my word. I am feeling like this life isn't for me which is really hard for my hubby. I don't like to share. lol I am willing to listen, research and stay open. Glad to be here.
Thx,
: )
ps I am pretty new at online forums. Please excuse any faux pas.

[River]

I don't like to share.

Can you say more about that, your not liking to "share"? Do you fear some sort of loss if you share? What belief do you have about sharing, about loving..., that underlies your not liking to share?

Maybe this will start with a puppy and lead to a pony!

[smilnlol]

I was being a bit facetious/sarcastic when I said I don't like to share. I have two teenage daughters, I share things I don't want too. Ha

I will elaborate for you. When I think about my hubby with someone else I feel jealousy, yes, but also I feel loss. I don't want to lose the special and unique relationship my hubby has only with me. Fundamentally , it is selfishness and a strong love for my hubby that makes this hard for me. He has been telling me all about this life style for years. I have thought about this a lot. I don't see myself handling it in a healthy way. He keeps asking me to try this life style but I liken it to having another child. You don't just give it a go. This is a new life, a new person you are opening yourself and your entire family to. If you try it and it works, great, if it doesn't you are left with the drama, hurt or disease or what have you, of this experience. It doesn't just stop, it becomes who you are forever. Giving a little of myself away just to see how it goes doesn't sound very healthy.

Thanks for asking,
Smil

[River]

I will elaborate for you. When I think about my hubby with someone else I feel jealousy, yes, but also I feel loss. I don't want to lose the special and unique relationship my hubby has only with me. Fundamentally, it is selfishness and a strong love for my hubby that makes this hard for me.

A couple of thoughts from my experience, limited as it has been...:

Every person is special and unique, therefore all relationships--comprised, as they are of people--are unique and special. Nothing can alter the specialness and uniqueness of a relationship between two people who love one another. It won't be any less special or unique if you or your hubby love another. It won't detract from the amount of love that exists between you. Love isn't like a pie that only has so many pieces to share. You won't get half a pie if your hubby loves another, or a third of a pie if your hubby loves two others.

Sometimes, in fact, the love between two members of a couple can expand and grow significantly when a third or fourth person comes into the picture. When my partner began to fully comprehend that I wasn't worried that I'd lose him when he began to open to another in love (and vice versa), and when that realization deepened within me in the experience, we opened to greater love with one another. There was more joy, more happiness, more love, greater trust and better communication. Nothing whatever became less or smaller! All the good things grew, expanded, proliferated.

Uniqueness and specialness. Everyone is unique and special. I love many people, some passionately, and each relationship is unique and special to me.
I have one lover, per se, at the time--my partner of 12 years--, but I do not fear that the specialness or uniqueness of our love will be threatened by either of us extending love to another, or even falling in love with another. That each of us trust each other and the the other's love enough to allow each other such freedom to love others without fear, guilt, shame..., is a blessing we give to one another.

Learning to love in this way takes time, but I think it is worth every bit of investment of thought, feeling, inquiry, communication.... Talk with your hubby heart-to-heart. He sounds like a "keeper". Go into this inquiry with big heart. Speak the truth of your hearts to one another. Maybe you'll decide that poly isn't for you. That's fine; that's great if that's the outcome. But don't have it all figured out in advance. None of us do.

[Olivier]

That was really beautiful Jrivermartin

[yoxi]

I'm not disagreeing with what anyone else has said here :) - just wanted to add that as a starting point, don't rush yourself or let yourself be rushed - don't let anyone (including yourself) tell you that you "shouldn't" be feeling how you are currently feeling about the situation (fear, curiosity, etc., whatever the mix is). There's a world of difference between opening to the possibility of feeling different about it on the one hand, and feeling obliged in some way to feel differently on the other.

[River]

Good point, Yoxi.

[MonoVCPHG]

I admire your love for your husband. You are a stronger person than me.

[redpepper]

I can see how you would think that trying out poly would be like "having another child... you don't just give it a go." I totally agree. Like anything that happens in life we are forever changed by change. Still there comes a time when it is change or die... in this case allow change or your relationship may die. That is scary. I feel for you having to deal with this. It could really go one way or another. I remember back to the time when my husband and were deciding whether or not we should get back into poly after a break for about 5 years. Ok, the decision was no were near as difficult, but the "what if's" certainly were there ready to consume us with immobilizing fear. We had to change in the end and chose to search for a poly lifestyle again. if we didn't our relationship would have died out .

[River]

Two primary things make transitioning from mono- to poly- much easier while in a couple.

The first is having a solid enough loving relationship with good enough communication (I threw in the 'enough') because we're all human and few of us have the ideal or perfect in these dimensions.

The second thing which helps tremendously is for both partners in the couple to practice, regularly, examining their unconsciously held and unexamined beliefs about love and sex and family and all of that. If one believes, somewhere in their psyche, that only monogamous couples can and do "really" or "fully" love one another, one is obviously going to experience fear of loss of love in transitioning to poly-. Bringing the many very specific beliefs about love and relationships we've been living in accord with into conscious awareness and asking "But is that true?" about each of them is a powerfully transformative practice, especially when one is willing to do this with serious engagement and radical self-honesty.

There are quite a number of primary beliefs which most people in our culture subscribe to which are flat out false. Learn how to test them for truth and falsity. Belief example: "If I have two lovers I must have only half as much love to give to each as if I had only one lover." (... and a third as much if I have three lovers.) Learn to see what sorts of metaphors or analogies are at play. In this case, the analogy is false, thus rendering the whole premise false. The analogy here is to pie, cake, pizza.... It is true with pie, cake, and pizza that if I share a pie with three others fairly I must divide it into fourths--that is, if everyone wants an equal proportion.

When we think of love as a commodity or substance which is limited in supply, like a pie, we fundamentally misunderstand the power of love to expand when given -- quite the opposite of the behavior of pie. We also fail to take into account the success stories of polyamorous people who often report having their love grow for their first (chronologically) love while opening to another lover as well.

It is true that time is like pie in that it isn't unlimited in supply. If you work a busy week and most of your available "free time" is on weekends or vacations, that's quantifiable and limited. Sadly. But a loving person with two lovers will naturally do her/his best to spend plenty of quality time with his/her lovers.

I suppose the basic essence of this second item on my list of things we can do to smooth our transition to poly- from mono- is about subjecting our cultural conditioning and indoctrination--which is lodged in our emotions without our knowledge or consent--to self-honest rational inquiry. That's always a good thing to do with beliefs of the present-but-unexamined sort.

[MonoVCPHG]

I spoke to my Lover, Redpepper, about commenting on things that I didn’t experience for myself. I am uncomfortable in offering opinions as opposed to experiences.

I do have a related experience in this case. During a long but over marriage, my wife did express a possible love for a woman and, thinking only of the sexual aspect, I encouraged her to pursue it. They spent a night together and, although she said nothing happened (and I do trust her impeccably) that was a night I will never forget.

I had a somewhat different dynamic going into it as she expressed her love for me had become more like the love of a brother or child than a husband or lover. Regardless it was one of the most painful experiences of my life.

We reconnected for 11 more years before I screwed up and the marriage ended. It ended because I lost connection with her (and many other things) and did not have a connection with myself to fall back on for strength. I found that connection after my marriage dissolved. Without that connection I could not have met Redpepper and fell in love with her and develop a different love for her Husband as well.

I came into my incredible relationship with Redpepper knowing full well she could love more than one person. It was a polyamorous relationship from the start. That is the paramount difference which enables me to embrace others that are in her life currently and others that may/will be lucky enough to share her love in the future. Everyone she brings into her life is blessed.

Based on my memory of that experience with my ex wife, and putting myself back in that space, I can say I would rather she have left me before pursuing that. It hurt too much to think that someone I had a monogamous relationship with for eight years, (and thought I always would) could desire someone in that way. Honestly, if she had of wanted another man, this would not have been an issue...I would have left without hesitation or option. The sexual excitement of picturing my ex wife with another woman overwhelmed my young mind LOL! I would never have believed she wasn't living in denial and that would have been too much back then no matter how much I loved her; and at that time she was my world.

I fully expect this not to be a popular comment, but it is again, based on my experience. I am not here to say what others want to hear, but say what my heart and mind have felt.

Respect to everyone on this forum.

[smilnlol]

Here are a few thoughts based on others comments:
So Quath and I have a healthy relationship. No really! This is a major reason Quath is "pushing" a bit harder these days. (This issue is causing some stress between us tho)
(JRiverMartin) "The first is having a solid enough loving relationship with good enough communication ..."( sorry I forget how to quote properly)
Why do we need other people if our relationship is healthy and satisfying? This made me question Quath's feelings about our relationship. Is he happy and satisfied? He says he is and I believe him yet the conflict it creates is hard to sort out.
My hubby has been "teaching" me about polyamory for about 6 yrs now. This isn't a case of new-idea-aphobia. I have really delve deep within myself to understand how I would handle this life style. I am not old but I am sure as hell not young. 39 : )
(JRiverMartin)"... is about subjecting our cultural conditioning and indoctrination...to self-honest rational inquiry."
This is so true but I have examined these annoying societal stereotypes already. I have read the Ethical Slut(ha) I have no preconceived notions about love and relationships. I just can't find a reason why he/we need this in our lives. Quath says he wants to have more love and intimacy in his life. I say you just want more sex (can I say sex?) He says no I want the relationship. My argument is if you want relationships go get more friends. lol Honestly, I think it is the perversion factor that propels Quath more than anything. It is not bad to want sex I just think it is intellectually dishonest to say it isn't 90% of polyamory. Not to offend anyone I also think that people in polyamorous relationships do love each other very deeply. I just don't want to pretend sex isn't a driving factor.

I don't think of love as a pie. I have two children that I love equally, therefore spreading my love around isn't a concept I have trouble with. I don't want to share my hubby even though I wish I could. I know how much he wants this in his life. It is hard not to give it to him. I don't want the responsibility of tell him no. I wouldn't want someone telling me how or how not to live my life. He is a grown man and should make his own decisions. Yes, he would have to deal with the consequences of his decisions (i.e. my feelings of loss and sadness) Ultimately, he needs to live his life and I will need to find away to adapt. He has had to adapt to the new puppy. lol

and I guess this life, opening myself to others, scares me. I hate dating : )

Thx,
Smil

[MonoVCPHG]

If I could figure out the "quote" function this would work better for sure..but here goes.

"I say you just want more sex (can I say sex?) He says no I want the relationship. My argument is if you want relationships go get more friends. lol Honestly, I think it is the perversion factor that propels Quath more than anything. It is not bad to want sex I just think it is intellectually dishonest to say it isn't 90% of polyamory. Not to offend anyone I also think that people in polyamorous relationships do love each other very deeply. I just don't want to pretend sex isn't a driving factor."

I agree with you and cannot shake the sense that this true in the majority of cases. Keep in mind that I am monogamous and my hard wiring is obviously different from a person hard wired for polyamory. That doesn't make it right or wrong, it just makes it my perception. I feel reality is based on individual preception therefore, this is my reality. Asking me to change that would be like asking me to suddenly accept that I am actually African American...I would have a hard time accepting that I am not Caucasian!

Let me re-iterate that I understand the ability to love more than one person intimately. My incredible relationship with Redpepper is based upon that. I just don't want you thinking you are alone in the basis of your thinking.

For what it is worth I have been trying to read the Ethical Slut for some time..I am a very capable reader but simply find it disturbing LOL! It's almost funny to discover that a guy who thought he was an unethical slut when he was married could have such a hard time with the idea of one that is ethical LOL!! Once I finish the book perhaps my understanding will be better.

Honestly, there is a huge part of me that wishes I was Polyamorous. I don't believe it is something that is learned..it is fundamental to a persons nature. Hmmm. I'm really getting into trouble here....

[smilnlol]

Honestly, there is a huge part of me that wishes I was Polyamorous. I don't believe it is something that is learned..it is fundamental to a persons nature. Hmmm. I'm really getting into trouble here.... I feel exactly the same way. I wish I could force myself to be polyamorous. To be so free, I guess. Not that I feel like I am holding back.

I see what you are saying and I don't see why it should get you in trouble. :) I think you can learn to be anything you want, you just have to want to learn it first. I think that's it, fundamentally you have to want it. At this point in my life I don't want it.

Smil

[MonoVCPHG]

Smilnlol

I just re-read a part of your post where you stated "he needs to live his life and I will need to find a way to adapt".

You almost sound as though you don't have a choice. You always have a choice. I know there are some things I cannot adapt to..they are definitely defined as things I won't "adapt" too.

I love your reference to "wanting to learn something". Right now the only thing I am trying to learn is how to show Redpepper just how much I love her and I care about her family.

Yesterday I picked her up for our Tuesday night. Me and her husband got to visit (which is so important). We are becoming very good friends and I am in complete awe at just how much he loves Redpepper. Tonight I will watch their child so they can go to dinner..my suggestion. I want to bring them as close as possible as well as share in her love.

Last weekend, I spent time doing yard work with her family including her brother and parents. A lot of people in my life, and hers, know about our relationship (not her parents or brother yet, I am a close personal friend to them for now).

The point I am trying to make is the importance of everyone knowing each other, respecting each other and being committed to each others happiness. I am her secondary, he is her primary, and she has a few other intimate friends who I also met. This is how I envision polyamory to be and the beauty I find in it.

There is a broad definition of polyamory and expectations. Mine is only one and others will differ. If this (specifically referring to my relationship and the role polyamory plays) was purely an excuse to have sex with who ever you want I would definitely not be in this. I am not a swinger or a person who enjoys casual play. I thought I could be, gave it a try, and was sorely disappointed LOL!

I am a person who loves in a specific way. Redpepper is a person who loves in a specific way. We are deeply in love, she is my best friend, and we are all learning so much together. We all feel very fortunate in this..but it is not easy and it requires complete communication, honesty and love for each other way beyond the love associated with sex.

You always have a choice.

[smilnlol]

Hmmm choice?
I don't want to tell Quath what to do. I am not sure how to deal with it. I don't want to share him yet I am not going to tell him no. It is out of my hands and that is super scary. If he chooses a poly life, even though I am apprehensive, afraid, sad, what choice do I have but to adapt? He has had to adapt to a mono life for 6 yrs.

[MonoVCPHG]

The issue of him adapting to a monogamous life at first interests me. It comes down to the expectations of the relationship when it started for me. I stress..for me.

Did he consciously state he was changing his love style to accommodate your monogamous nature? Was the possibility of it changing to polyamory discussed before you committed your love to him in the way a monogamous person does.

I just don't intimately love more than one person at a time..simple and plain. I love giving all of myself to one person. I also appreciate how polyamorous people love and how incredibly strong they are to do this. I live in it and it is amazing! Redpepper is a gift beyond description and the strenght of her relationship with her husband is overwhelming. I love them both.

I guess I'm asking if this was an expectation of yours originally? You always have a choice..there are always options. Do what makes you happy and healthy, but please don't do something just because you feel no other options are available to you.

I hope you don't mind if I ask my Lover Redpepper to look at your posts and offer her opinion. Although I enjoy sharing my experiences, I am finding myself getting caught up in the emotions of the posts from people that I probably incorrectly assume are being pushed along against their nature. I am raw, hurt and my objectivity is being replaced by anger.
I feel for you truly.

[redpepper]

I don't get a chance to read these too often but am kept up to date and discussions abound around what is said on this forum between my partners and I... thanks for that... so much to learn and talk about.

Here is my opinion for what it is worth... please realize that I obviously don't know Quath's story and the subtle nuances that make up your relationship, so take what you will and leave the rest from what I am about to say.

It seems to me that your relationship is lacking some kind of vision. Some kind of goal to work towards within this journey you are on. Of course this would have to revolve around care and respect for each other. Without greed and selfishness. Within the practice of good compersion and as someone said before, practicing radical honesty. The way that people come together in poly is different and they might have different boundaries and rules, but the core is the same (the last sentence reflects the poly core to me). Where is this core in your relationship with Quath? It needs to be figure out first before adding layers around it, like an onion. It worries me that Quath seems to want to start with the outside of the onion and work in. Start with a relationship and then fill in the onion underneath it. The onion would then be hollow and flimsy and with lack of fidelity and substance. I don't see that working out. Of course it depends on how deep your love is... then you might already have the necessary core and it is a matter of peeling it away to remind yourself that you do love each other. If your love for one another is indeed deep and forever then peeling that onion is a good reminder of that and will bring you both strength when he goes out to find other loves. I would hope, having REALLY gotten to the core of your onion together that he isn't being selfish and in "let me cheat above board" mode. I also hope you are not the type to suck it up and let him go out to look for a relationship with someone without forcing the onion to be peeled first... I'm sorry but in these cases I think you are doomed...

I'm sorry to sound harsh but experience has taught me in this poly life I lead that to not say it like it is, put myself our there and sometimes be blunt means things are left unsaid and growth doesn't happen. Growth is good and so is change. Whatever happens it will all be for the best for both of you.

I recently went through an onion peeling process with my husband actually. It's very fresh for me (still crying over onions LOL), which is why I have such a strong opinion.

He had meet a woman on line that I had met the boyfriend of. We decided to all meet and see if there was any connection. For my husband there was an instant connection. I also saw potential to have a friendship with both of them and perhaps be lovers with both. I am now lovers/friends with the man which is not really significant to this story.

My husband pursued the woman for a time, all the while falling deeper and deeper in love. At one point she didn't call him back and he was desperately hurt. I could see that she didn't feel the same way and said so so he decided to back out and not talk to her... somehow they started up again and it got more and more intense. He asked me not to spend time with her, as I had her in my life too through her man. This was when I started to really worry. He didn't want to tell me about how he felt also. Essentially he was "cheating above board" in my eyes. He still hadn't told her that he was in love with her and I suggested he better tell her. I was right, she didn't feel the same way. My husband was devastated.

All along I was uncomfortable with this woman and the situation. I was angry, jealous, and a whole slew of other things also. The whole thing didn't sit right with me from day one and I thought I had to sit and take it because this is what he wanted.

One afternoon our onion peeled over this. We got to the very core of our relationship and found ourselves in a place where we could break up or move forward and re-peel our onion. We decided that we were still loving one another and moved forward from there having learned several lessons (1. always involve yourself in your lovers life with others, 2. go with your gut always, 3. we now always reserve the right to put a stop/pause to each others relationships when we are uncomfortable or not getting our needs met or our families needs... they always come first, and 4. it may hurt like hell, but never stop talking for whatever reason... silence is death). He broke it off with her at my request and hasn't seen her since.
My advice to you?
go peel your onion
get all the shit out on the table and see what you've got to work with
make some rules and boundaries for each other.
then make a plan and act on it.
avoiding all this will lead no where and make Quath more desperate to get on it. He will then (I predict, again from experience) take matters into his own hands and cheat on you, or force the issue, or leave you... you gotta give a little to get what you need.

It sounds like you have made a decision that you are not willing to live a poly life (I find the puppy ironic as you get to love it ? and your husband doesn't have his own "puppy" to love ? ... hmmmm ... not thinking of the sex of course! which apparently is 90% of a poly relationship? LOL another topic I won't get into now).... so TELL him. Open the door to conversation and compromise if you can. He will then have to decide to stay or not if you are not willing to budge.... 6 years of waiting might just be too much for him, or maybe he doesn't think losing all he has is worth it, but please be respectful and honest enough to tell him your truth. For both of you.

[MonoVCPHG]

Thanks for adding this Redpepper. I am glad you got to offer your ideas based on experience. I love you for everything!!

I must admit the comparison between the love of a puppy for her and a human being to get naked and sweaty with for him will probably soar way over the head of any monogamous person..I see zero comparison LOL! She would be expressing love with pats and treats and he would be expressing love with intercourse. I won't even try to understand that one Lover :)

I also don't see how sex isn't at the core begininnings of any polyamorous relationships either. I guess we differ here as I have yet to see or read about the beginings or intentions to start any polyamorous relationship without the expectations to experience each other sexualy. Differences make a realtionship full and promote communication, which promotes connection!!

Smilnlol, I hope you draw upon Redpeppers advice. She is an amazing person with experience and a cpacity to love that is both scary and beautiful to me. She is a gift that I probably don't deserve but plan on sharing my love with forever..cause I'm greedy:)

[redpepper]

oh geez, that was suppose to be my attempt at humor with the puppy thing...:eek:
and as for the 90% sex thing... I wasn't going to to get into that., but... in brief...
Of course sex is a huge part! how would there be a separation between friend and lover otherwise. I certainly count monoVCPG as my lover but other people I have sex with our friendship definitely comes first and the sex second. I guess it is all a matter of definition of relationships.
k, lots more I could say but I don't want to lose focus on the issues at hand.

[River]

Several earlier posts in this thread include suggestions that sex is somehow primary or core or central to polyamory. This is false. The core of polyamory is about love, not sex. Polyamorous people generally see sex as one way of expressing and experiencing love, and choose not to stand in the way when someone they love wants to share love with others -- including sexual expression and experience.

I think of it like this.: Most monogamous couples do not stand in the way of "allowing" their lover to have friendships with others, including loving ones -- or even passionately loving ones. (Remember, passion does not equal sex!)
Jack and Jill don't generally want to draw a line, preventing their partner from, say, enjoying dinner and a movie with a friend. These are shared pleasures, right? But Jack and Jill, being monogamous, draw the line at sex. That's not allowed with others. Are we to think that loving "platonic" friends aren't sharing love while sharing (expressing/experiencing) a dinner and a movie? All activities shared with a loving friend can be expressions and experiences of love, including sex.

Sex, like dinner and a movie ... or a hike in the woods or a picnic in the park... are shared pleasures. Ideally, there would be love experienced and expressed in all of them. Love is what's central and core, here. Not sex.

Sex cannot be the central theme of human relating. Love must be that central theme, or it isn't quite fully human relating. Love is the central theme of human existence. >>> continued >>>

[River]

SONG

by Allan Ginsberg

The weight of the world
is love.
Under the burden
of solitude,
under the burden
of dissatisfaction

the weight,
the weight we carry
is love.

Who can deny?
In dreams
it touches
the body,
in thought
constructs
a miracle,
in imagination
anguishes
till born
in human--
looks out of the heart
burning with purity--
for the burden of life
is love,

but we carry the weight
wearily,
and so must rest
in the arms of love
at last,
must rest in the arms
of love.

No rest
without love,
no sleep
without dreams
of love--
be mad or chill
obsessed with angels
or machines,
the final wish
is love
--cannot be bitter,
cannot deny,
cannot withhold
if denied:

the weight is too heavy

--must give
for no return
as thought
is given
in solitude
in all the excellence
of its excess.

The warm bodies
shine together
in the darkness,
the hand moves
to the center
of the flesh,
the skin trembles
in happiness
and the soul comes
joyful to the eye--

yes, yes,
that's what
I wanted,
I always wanted,
I always wanted,
to return
to the body
where I was born.

[smilnlol]

I want to tell all of you how much I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me.

I am sticking my toes into the water. I have no idea where this is going for me.

[Lemondrop]

Several earlier posts in this thread include suggestions that sex is somehow primary or core or central to polyamory. This is false. The core of polyamory is about love, not sex. Polyamorous people generally see sex as one way of expressing and experiencing love, and choose not to stand in the way when someone they love wants to share love with others -- including sexual expression and experience.

I think of it like this.: Most monogamous couples do not stand in the way of "allowing" their lover to have friendships with others, including loving ones -- or even passionately loving ones. (Remember, passion does not equal sex!)
Jack and Jill don't generally want to draw a line, preventing their partner from, say, enjoying dinner and a movie with a friend. These are shared pleasures, right? But Jack and Jill, being monogamous, draw the line at sex. That's not allowed with others. Are we to think that loving "platonic" friends aren't sharing love while sharing (expressing/experiencing) a dinner and a movie? All activities shared with a loving friend can be expressions and experiences of love, including sex.

Sex, like dinner and a movie ... or a hike in the woods or a picnic in the park... are shared pleasures. Ideally, there would be love experienced and expressed in all of them. Love is what's central and core, here. Not sex.

Sex cannot be the central theme of human relating. Love must be that central theme, or it isn't quite fully human relating. Love is the central theme of human existence. >>> continued >>>

This is the concept that I'm having trouble with. I feel like I get what you're saying, but I'm not quite to where I get the whole concept. Bear with me, I'm just on the edge of understanding but can't quite get over.

Coming from a monogamous mindset, sex is something that married couples share exclusively between themselves. It's supposed to be special, something that only they do together. It is not casual in a loving relationship. Perhaps I'm unusual. I find sex reassuring, comforting, a physical connection with someone I love. It's a bonding exercise. If I allow my husband to have sex with someone else, then he is bonding with them in a very special way that is supposed to be something special we do between the two of us. Have you ever been hurt that a friend shared something special that was supposed to be between the two of you with someone else? Even something as small as a trip to the mall? Well, let's establish that I have. How then am I to reconcile the fact that this one act, this thing that I share only with someone I love and have no desire to share with anyone that I do not have deep, committed feelings for, how do I accept that he shares it with someone else? I feel like I must accept that he either 1) feels strongly for the other woman, which makes me ask, where does that leave me? or 2) gives away casually what is so deeply important to me, which makes me wonder where that leaves our relationship.

[yoxi]

I feel like I must accept that he either 1) feels strongly for the other woman, which makes me ask, where does that leave me? or 2) gives away casually what is so deeply important to me, which makes me wonder where that leaves our relationship.
Or (3), you just experience things differently from him in this area. I think you are under no obligation to feel something other than you do feel. What makes someone basically polyamorous is that they can say and mean: "I can love/be loved by more than one person to the same extent that I can love/be loved by just one person", and/or "I can love/feel loved by someone who doesn't love only me, to the same extent that I can if s/he does love only me".

I've no way of telling this for certain, but my intuition is that some people move around in this spectrum - between monamory (I hate the word monogamy!) and polyamory - and some people are where they are on that spectrum and are not going to shift; kind of similar to sexual orientation.

It may be that you are not open to being in a polyamorous relationship out of fear, insecurity, or conditioning (or that you are not open to this particular polyamorous relationship, because of who is involved) - but it may also just be that you're a one-person person. It's not easy to tell, any more than it's easy to tell what your sexual orientation is whilst under internal/external pressure to be this or that (with moral judgements swiftly on the heels of this or that).

Take your time, and be prepared to want something different from what your partner wants - that's the nature of being you rather than them :).

[River]

" ... sex is something that married couples share exclusively between themselves. It's supposed to be special, something that only they do together. It is not casual in a loving relationship."

It's really interesting to be where I am about these things at the moment and look back at how I was when I was with my first lover, a man I was partnered with for about 5 years. I was much more conventional and mainstream in my thinking and feeling about love/sex then, and "monamorous" (thanks, Yoxi). I was exploratory and innovative in other realms, but took my love-style right off the mainstream shelf (well, aside from the fact that it was a same-sex union).

Then, I would have been devastated if my lover, M, even wanted to love another man (he wasn't attracted to women in this way) as well as me "romantically" or in the love+sex fashion. I look back at that and think, Man, was I insecure!

Fast forward to the present. I've been with Kevin for 12 years now. We're both polyamorous in spirit, though neither of us has another lover besides. We're very communicative with each other about our attraction to other guys/gals, and neither of us believes our opening to love another will in any way diminish the love we have for one another. If anything, it will probably enhance our love-life -- as we each have need for kinds of connection we can't have with each other due to our differences (e.g., I'm a high verbal person and Kevin is not; he can't make art-of-conversation as I'd like to have with an intimate.) ...

In my youth, I automatically assimilated from my culture -- without critical reflection! -- (tv, movies, radio, love songs...) that the need or longing to share love+sex ("romantic love") equalled, among other things, anxiety that my beloved might pursue a love+sex attraction toward someone else. Of course, in those days, that meant abandoning me--for as the song goes "loving both of you is breaking all the rules".

(I've been in lifelong recovery from abandonment trauma!, so abandonment equals death, or worse, somewhere in my psyche.)

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Okay, back to the fast forward: I have roughly zero fear of abandonment in my relationship with Kevin at this time, especially abandonment resulting from his falling in love with another -- I'd honestly delight and rejoice in and welcome his having another lover (provided they practice great caution as not to pass along any STDs--or STIs for the brits here)! How exciting it would be for our family to take branches! I guess I feel so secure in this relationship, and in my psycho-spiritual path/evolution, that expansive experimentation and risk-taking makes me feel alive, rather than threatened. Also, as much as I love Kevin, I know I can live and be happy without him. Taking risks is different in such an atmosphere. I'm not motivated much by fear in intimate relationships any more. I'm motivated by growing in love, joy, freedom, peace.... I'm willing to risk EVERYTHING to keep such growth going, and polyamory does that for me/us. Also, it's exciting! It's adventurous! Even though I have a solid love relationship, I can have the adventure of being open to another! and I won't be abandoned by my lover if I do.

(It nearly happened last spring/summer, and Kevin watched as "R" and I engaged in a lot of snuggling and deep kissing. He didn't abandon me or rage at me for loving this other man -- but he also didn't talk about his feelings with me much, as he is that low-verbal sort I mentioned.)


"Perhaps I'm unusual. I find sex reassuring, comforting, a physical connection with someone I love. It's a bonding exercise. If I allow my husband to have sex with someone else, then he is bonding with them in a very special way that is supposed to be something special we do between the two of us."

Other than a desire to have such a bond be exclusive, you and I are precisely on the same page, here. I feel all of that in snuggling and in sex, and wouln't give it up for anything -- certainly not in exchange for "casual sex" (which I don't do). I CAN share love of this sort with two or three people. Probably not more than three, as it would get too complicated, I think.

In any case, if Kevin were to find another lover, I'd not feel that he was giving that other something which was properly mine, exclusively, and I would not fear that it would diminish the love he has for me. Odds are, it would help him open to further love, generally, and I'd get to enjoy basking in that warmth! I hope he does find/meet another!

[yoxi]

smilnlol, I've realised that what concerns me about your story is not about polyamory, it's about choice.

What I feel is that if you choose to do what someone else wants out of fear of losing them, that's not really a choice - and you might that way lose something else very precious, that's uniquely your own.

Maybe I'm just projecting my 'stuff' onto you - I married someone because they wanted me to, knowing deep down that I was doing it out of fear - and in the end, I had to wake up and take back to me what I'd given away, and it was more painful for both of us by then.

[Lemondrop]

Thank you, Yoxi and JRiverMartin, for taking the time and patience to deal with my questions. I'm not sure I quite understand, but I'm very motivated and I'm trying.

smilnlol, I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread, but I did think that my questions might be related to some you might have.

[redpepper]

i love that you pointed out to lemondrop that she might be experiencing things differently yoxi. I explain it to monoPVCG that I have the same amount of love for him as I do for my husband. he just expanded my heart by allowing me to love him so much... kind of like the Grinch that stole Christmas. The more I love people and they allow me to show them love the more I have to give... my heart get bigger and bigger. I am more and more happy and feel as if I am spreading it outward and inviting it back. I have always been like that and when I haven't been I am depressed and feel vulnerable and grumpy. This is definitely the way for me.

As for Smilinlol I think that is really the bottom line... choice. Denying someone the choice and allowing choice to be denied to you is perhaps a recipe for disaster.

I'd love to know how both of you work it out smilinlol and lemondrop. Please come back and tell us some time? I think it so important to learn from one another and am so interested in how you manage.... of course part of it is that I have genuine concern for your well being also.

[MonoVCPHG]

Just so we are clear my Gorgeous Redpepper :) I don't have to understand everything about you to love you! And I love you madly!! I just have to accept the gift that you, being true to yourself, has given me...now I'm outa here..this place freaks me out LOL!

[AutumnalTone]

Welcome to the boards.

Sorry it's taken me a while to join in on your thread--I've been out camping with a whole bunch of interesting people and even a few dirty hippies.


Why do we need other people if our relationship is healthy and satisfying?


Why do people have more than one child if the experience of having the first is healthy and satisfying?

If you have more than one child, do you love the last any less than the first?

Think back to the relationships that you've had. Was each relationship identical to all the others? Or did each lover share a bond with you that wasn't replicated by the other pairings you've lived?

I'll wager that, like most people, your relationships have each been individual in flavor and texture. Why, then, would you expect a new relationship to somehow make the one you have cease to be as unique as it is?

One important aspect of poly living that you appear to be missing is a little thing called "compersion," or taking joy in your lover's happiness. In poly tangles, we take joy in our partners finding yet more love that increases their joy and enriches their lives.


I just don't want to pretend sex isn't a driving factor.


You don't have to pretend. Sex isn't generally a driving factor.

If sex were a driving factor in what we do, we wouldn't get involved with multiple relationships and all of the added work that comes with them. Sex is so much easier to get outside of relationships--we could simply take up swinging or pretend to be mono and cheat or simply remain single and always play the field. Or, for me, I'd simply hire a whore.

The sex is an outgrowth of the relationships. I didn't alter my budget to travel out of state often just so I could have sex. I didn't spend hours providing emotional support to my girlfriend when her teenagers were making life hell just so I could get sex. I didn't spend time listening to two women nag at me to take better care of myself just so I could get sex.

Sex is easy to get from my wife. Sex is easy to get picking up women at a local bar. Sex is easy to get by calling an escort--and that'd cost less than what I spent traveling and helping provide for that second household. Sex doesn't drive me--nor most poly folk--to a new relationship.

It's the relationships that drives me to stretch myself too thin on some occasions. It's the relationships that lead me to provide emotional support to two women who have emotional crises at the same time. It's the relationships that drive me to further relationships.

And part of loving freely and allowing the relationships to grow as they will is the reality that they may--likely will--involve sex. To mistake that outgrowth of the living and loving as a driving force involves a serious mistake of perception.


and I guess this life, opening myself to others, scares me. I hate dating : )


I'm with ya there! I'm always scared of growing intimacy with another person, though I always welcome that quiver of fear as part of the dance of life. I've been discarded several times by (now former) lovers and fully realize that it can happen again at any time. I fully accept that risk because the relationships are rewarding, even those that end much sooner than I would like.

Shakespeare claimed it better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all. I'm thinking it better to have loved as deeply and often as possible, despite what losses may occur along the way. I don't regret the relationships I've had; I vaguely regret having settled for mono relationships so many times and wonder how many other wonderful relationships I've missed out on because of that.

And I hate dating.

[AutumnalTone]

I fully expect this not to be a popular comment, but it is again, based on my experience. I am not here to say what others want to hear, but say what my heart and mind have felt.


We don't want popular comments. We want the real thoughts and opinions of real people navigating their way through Life as best they can. Your thoughts and opinions are as valid as anybody else's on here.

It's one of those relationship things...speak to us truly so we may know what is actually happening. :cool:

[MonoVCPHG]

"Sex isn't generally a driving factor".

Sorry my friend.. I have to disagree with you on this point. I've met a fair number of polyamorous people and sex is definitely a driving factor. Without sex you essentially have a deep relationship; which is quite possible in platonic situations.

Respectfully, I think this statement is delusional and avoiding one of the huge benefits of polyamorous relationships, which is experiencing, people in an emotional, spiritual and definitely sexual way. If it wasn't for the sexual aspect, we wouldn't need to call loving other people in this way by a distinct name.

I respect your view and aproach to polyamory, and hope I have not offended. If I have, I sincerely apologize.

[Quath]

I have stayed out of this thread, so Smilnlol could explain what she is going through without interference from me.

She pretty much knows all the logical arguments for polyamory since I have been talking about it for years. I think where she has issues is more on the emotional level. For example, she worries she will not be special if I love someone else. I try to explain how she will be special, but that does not help her feel better about it. It matters more that she feels special instead of her being special. So I am not really sure what to say to this.

She is also not forced into polyamory, but she feels pushed since she knows I would be sad without it. She doesn't want to be the person who makes me sad, so she feels she has little choice in this. She is trying to deal with this trapped feeling.

She also seems to think along the lines of MonoVCPHG. For example, on sex being a driving factor, she sees that it is focus of a lot of poly issues and one of the central acts that separates friends from lovers. However, I see it similar to how a single person would see sex. They will want to date, and they want to be sexually compatible with the person they date. So single people tend to have a focus on sex while they are trying to find a relationship. I find the relationship to be more important, but I know that sexual compatibility makes it so much better.

She understands my views to an extent. For example, she knows it is not all about the sex because I am not trying to get us into swinging. However, that does not make her feel any less that sex is one of the number one reasons to be poly.

I am not sure how things will turn out. I am happy that she is trying to be as accepting as possible about this. I know it causes her grief and I wish I could spare her that.

Anyway, that is my perspective.

[AutumnalTone]

Reminds me of a song about love I've not heard in at least two decades:

"I't's just like a magic penny
Hold it tight and you won't have any
Lend it, spend it and you'll have so many
They'll roll all over the floor"

[AutumnalTone]

I think you missed the point I offered. If sex were a driving factor, there are far easier ways to get sex that don't involve the work of a relationship. Sex only becomes a factor within a relationship. Yes, we want the wonderful sex that comes with a wonderful relationship. That, however, doesn't make sex a driving factor to be poly, just an expected outgrowth of a romantic relationship.

And the fact that there are poly folks who engage in deep relationships without sex shows that sex isn't necessary to a deep romantic relationship. That highlights that sex is not a driving factor, necessarily, for becoming poly.

That's also not to say that some folks view it as such. The fact that some do doesn't mean it is a driving factor in general. Some future study may show that such folk are in the majority in the poly community, certainly, which would make support of the notion that sex is a driving factor fully supportable. My experience suggests otherwise.

So, there's no delusion. And, if you read the whole of what I said, you'll find that I don't diminish the importance of sex in any fashion as part of the relationships. I just don't see it as a driving factor any more than I see it as a driving factor in a deep romantic mono relationship. I didn't marry my wife just for sex, nor was it a major consideration--I could get sex without all the work of a relationship and being involved in a relationship has never been necessary to get sex.

Indeed, if sex were a driving force, I suspect one would swing in preference to opening up as poly. I offer that the driving force thus isn't sex, it's the ties of relationship that drives us poly, and sex is just one of many benefits.

[River]

I've never really liked sex with anyone I didn't want to be close to/with. Seems rather contradictory.

[MonoVCPHG]

Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Maybe the word "sex" should be replaced with "intimate friendship". To me if you are seeking what I consider intimate friendship, you are expecting the inevitable promise of sex. If you find yourself considering a polyamorous relationship with an existing friend, the difference between the deep platonic relationship that may already exist will be the desire and realization of sex.

I have not met anyone that would state they have a polyamorous with someone that they are not, or have been, sexually active with.

It really doesn't matter though. It's only an opinion that has little bearing on my incredible relationship with Redpepper and her husband. I have better areas to focus my attention than trying to understand how each person approaches a polyamorous love style.

I can appreciate most, but don't expect to understand..nor do I expect others to understand mine fully. And trust me..I have some weird issues LOL!!

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions..if we all agreed there wouldn't be a forum!!

[Mark1npt]

I've never really liked sex with anyone I didn't want to be close to/with. Seems rather contradictory.JRM

Indeed, if sex were a driving force, I suspect one would swing in preference to opening up as poly. I offer that the driving force thus isn't sex, it's the ties of relationship that drives us poly, and sex is just one of many benefits. SC

I feel you both are saying basically the same thing but thru different means....the same with Mono.....since we are all in poly, we have been looking for more than just casual sex as swinging or remaining single would provide. Obviously we all need more. We need to experience a different depth, more layers of the onion, so to speak, than the average horny guy out there, just looking for more sex.

I myself, had a 20+ year long platonic relationship with many deep moments that only recently crossed over into a poly situation with this person, my wife and I. The sharing of this love with another person combined with the sexual component significantly enhances the friendship and our lives. Clearly, we wouldn't be in a poly arrangement without the sexual component, however it most definately is the whipped cream and cherry on the top of the overall relationship, not the basis for the friendship or the poly arrangement.

[vampiresscammy]

very belated Welcome to Smilnlol :)

and wow, so much wonderful advice in just this one thread, thank you all for sharing and passing along advice.

I can't really add anything that hasn't already been said here, but good luck to you hun whatever you decide works best for you.

[moonstone]

"I vaguely regret having settled for mono relationships so many times and wonder how many other wonderful relationships I've missed out on because of that."

SeventhCrow that is so true. Everytime some man is taken off the market its sad and I kind of mourn it. No one should belong to anyone. Poly is a good way to learn about yourself, to learn acceptance. As someone who has had no babies I have room in my heart aplenty. I wonder... are there many polys who are currently raising children??