Female bisexuality

[GroundedSpirit]

From another thread came the topic of female bisexuality and I thought it would be interesting to get some thoughts from the girls here.

We've seen a theory proposed in the past that basically says that a majority (maybe LARGE majority) of females are bisexual by nature (from birth).
At the time is was kind of a new insight to me but given the fact that it was voiced by another woman I found it interesting. One of the observations she offered to support it at the time was from observing the behavior of young girls in their interactions. She was an elementary school teacher. Interestingly enough she herself did NOT identify as being bisexual but knew many other women her age who did. Her observations included seeing how much physical contact commonly occurred between young girls as opposed to the boys. Holding hands, hugging, kissing etc.
But even with all that, it left me wondering how much was actually nature vs how much was it encouraged (intentionally or otherwise) by modern society.
Research I've seen seems to have wide variations in any conclusions drawn regarding bisexuality & gender although I think part of that is due to some variation in definition of "bisexuality" period.

But what do all of you (girls) feel ? If you identify with being bisexual do you feel it was always part of you - or was it more of a conditioned response ?

For the purposes of this discussion I'd like to see us adhere to a definition of "bisexuality" as
"a willingness to participate sexually with another female without reservation".
The whole other potential definition of "attraction" would require something different.

GS

[Magdlyn]

But what do all of you (boys) feel ? If you identify with being straight do you feel it was always part of you - or was it more of a conditioned response?

fixed it for ya

[AutumnalTone]

So non-sexual behavior somehow predicts adult sexuality? That's a bit of a stretch. Boys also spend all sorts of time touching each other, engaged in wrestling and assorted horseplay. Is that supposed to indicate that every man is inherently bisexual until socialized to be gay or straight? (Yeah, lots of social pressure to be gay in our society....)

[Magdlyn]

I recently saw a vid of Osama Bin Laden being greeted by another man. Sitting on pillows on the floor, they did a triple cheek kiss, shook hands and sat there holding hands as they chatted.

oh noes! the gai! it burns!

[Rarechild]

I thought it would be interesting to get some thoughts from the girls here.

This is an 18 and over website. There are no girls on here if we're doing our job. I find it really hard to respond to the subject you are bringing up when I feel offended by a slight like this from the get-go. Do you understand what I'm saying, little boy? (for demonstration purposes only)


We've seen a theory proposed in the past that basically says that a majority (maybe LARGE majority) of females are bisexual by nature (from birth).

Does you partner have a name or could you invent one? Or say I instead of we? I feel like you're writing for someone who obviously never writes in these posts. It's just weird, IMO.

As to your theory, I'm going to say something even more controversial- I think all humans are bisexual, and it's a matter of societal conditioning and experience that determines whether the person ever identifies with that. :)

But what do all of you women feel?If you identify with being bisexual do you feel it was always part of you - or was it more of a conditioned response ?

I do feel it was entirely natural to me. And my first sexual experiences were during play as a child with female friends. Once I entered adulthood and came up against the abuse thrown at same-sex relationships, there was a period of time when I didn't want to think about being with women, because I was so wrapped up in the fairy tale monogamy marriage paradigm. But I'm over that now. :)

For the purposes of this discussion I'd like to see us adhere to a definition of "bisexuality" as
"a willingness to participate sexually with another female without reservation".

Your definition confuses me. It doesn't really seem to mean anything. And I would take issue with bisexuality being defined in terms of being a lesbian. What is missing here.. oh yeah, the other gender.

[NeonKaos]

This is an 18 and over website. There are no girls on here if we're doing our job here. I find it really hard to respond to the subject you are bringing up when I feel offended by a slight like this from the get-go. Do you understand what I'm saying, little boy? (for demonstration purposes only)




Does you partner have a name or could you invent one? Or say I instead of we? I feel like you're writing for someone who obviously never writes in these posts. It's just weird, IMO.



We could start referring to Grounded Spirit as "it", "they" or some other pronoun.

But actually, I think the real reason that "girls" are turning to bisexuality is because we aren't getting enough sex from the "boys" in our lives. Don't you think so too?

[redpepper]

I haven't found bisexuality to be prevelant at all, anywhere. I'm talking for real, not the "I do it cause its cool," or "my boyfriend likes it," or "I'm curious" reasons. I'm talking, drawn to both sexes at different times depending on the person or time of sexual life.

I don't know where you got your info from GS, but I would say that both sexes have sexuality and both experience it with their peers when they are young. I see it in my son in the form of playing "hiding from the grown ups" with his friend. I don't know what he does under the comforter with his male friend, but its not just about hide and seek.

I'm thankful that different forms of sexuality are more accepted but I don't think it means that female bisexuals are more prevalent. Just more societally accepted than male bisexuality.

[MonoVCPHG]

Just more societally accepted than male bisexuality.

That is my opinion as well. I think it has everything to do with this and very little to do with an actual imbalance between the sexes.

[constlady]

Her observations included seeing how much physical contact commonly occurred between young girls as opposed to the boys. Holding hands, hugging, kissing etc.


What is observed is what society deems acceptable to be demonstrated in public.
It has been the case for many years that the same sort of physical affection expressed between boys is not acceptable - and they are quickly made aware of that, at a discouragingly young age.

Like redpepper, I don't see truly bisexual females as being any more prevalent where I live and experience.
What I do see (even in the little slice of conservative red in a blue state where I happen to reside) is more willingness by those whose sexual orientation is not purely hetero to acknowledge that fact, openly.
Matter of factly even, because the way society views sexual orientation is changing and I give great thanks to the LGBT rights movement for paving the way for that.

[Quath]

Most women I have dated were bisexual or at least said they wanted to be with another woman. So that is my personal anecdotal data.

From studies, I lean more to the idea that men and women fall somewhere on the bisexual scale. I think a big difference is that society is more encouraging of women being with women than with men being with men. So they don't feel as much pressure to act more heterosexual than men do. Plus it seems to be a fad for two women to make out to turn guys on. (While I would like to believe they want each other, I think many cases are just to tease guys.)

Maybe when society becomes less male homophobic, we will see more bisexual men pubically. I have a gut feeling that basic bisexuality is probably equal in both genders.

[Rarechild]

Maybe when society becomes less male homophobic, we will see more bisexual men pubically. I have a gut feeling that basic bisexuality is probably equal in both genders.

Do I really get to be the one to catch "pubically"!!??? HA!

[vampiresscammy]

I'll second Rarechild here and put in my two cents, that its been my experience and overall thoughts that we are all actually bisexual and simply alot of us either never meet the right person to bring out those feelings or we pay too much attention to the mean spirited ways of the world looking down on same sex partners and either squash the feelings inside or refuse to acknowledge them

growing up in a smaller town, surrounded by not very open minded people or ideas, it was very confusing and upsetting to feel a knowledge within myself that i didn't have words to help me understand or places to seek information about why i was so different. i just knew i had stronger than friendship feelings to several of my girlhood friends and would love to watch them for hours just doing whatever. it wasn't til in my teens that i even really knew and understood one could have sexual feelings towards others of the same sex and that it was not bad or evil to have said feelings

as far as what kids get up to when discovering themselves, well i was late to that party as well, so i can't really help there either

as to whether more gals are bi than the guys? well, i don't personally think so, i bet most of the guys who aren't saying they are is simply due to society making them feel wrong for wanting it and or their own personal reasons/issues for not being up front about it

[GroundedSpirit]

Some interesting thoughts here from everyone. Thanks for taking a moment.
As is usual there's several of these responses that could take off on their own probably. Maybe they will ?
I don't know if it's practical for me to add a personal response to all of them but will try to add to a few.

I think those that alluded to differences in how boys & girls show "affection" was an interesting point. If any supposition was drawn by the friend I mentioned that made the observation, it might be wise to keep that in mind. That fact that they observed more....."touchy/feely" behavior from the girls may be nothing more than the difference in ways that affection is shown with the genders. Good point !

For anyone who took the definition to task I'd ask them to just please go back and re-read. The necessity of that was nothing more than to keep us all focused on the question. The term "bisexuality" can & does go off in MANY directions, especially one dealing with relative "attraction". Some clearly picked up on the need for that - others clearly didn't. It was necessary for this particular discussion to keep it tightly bound all the while acknowledging there were other definitions that could take us in MANY directions.

For those who may be confused be the I/we association by MY writing I'll just clear that up - again - by explaining that "K" (my wife/mate/soulmate/partner etc) has a bit of an aversion to the computer, particularly typing more than a few sentences. I use either "I" or "we" accordingly, depending on whether the subject is one that we've spent significant time discussing in the past, or lived shared experiences. Either one of us would be more than capable of sharing the others perspectives on most basic things and for the most part we're very much in sync (except on food or movie preferences) lol. It's only that "I" end up doing the "typing" so have to take responsibility for words used.

But to echo what someone else posted, from what studies I've seen there seems to be no dramatic difference between the genders regarding bisexuality - depending on how that's defined. Which leads us to point to societal factors as some pointed out. The question I had, and how I framed it (targeted at the ladies) was just drawn from the other thread where it originated. "I", myself, think it could well be made a gender neutral question, but again was restricting it only because that's where it "started".

Good stuff........

[Magdlyn]

If there is any doubt about the patriarchy causing men to suppress their bi or homosexuality, one need look no further than the brouhaha around Adam Lambert's recent American Music Awards performance, in which he kissed his male keyboardist. This lost him appearances on a morning talk show and on the upcoming Dick Clark/Ryan Seacrest New Yr's Eve show.

http://www.kevincharnas.com/uploaded_images/adam-lambert-kissing-ama-775186.jpg

Now, Madonna and Britney can tongue kiss on prime time TV any day of the week and no one minds. But 2 men??? Its porn and will traumatize the children (never mind kids are more and more accepting of gays these days).

http://essemundoeumhospicio.zip.net/images/britney_madonna_kiss.jpg

Also, from my personal exp, since I am listed at okc as bi, i get hit on by many men who list themselves as straight on their profiles... but admit to being bi privately.

[Ceoli]

Also, from my personal exp, since I am listed at okc as bi, i get hit on by many men who list themselves as straight on their profiles... but admit to being bi privately.

Heh...I've had that very same experience quite a bit too!

[Magdlyn]

Just for fun

http://www.celebgossipnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/britney-spears-madonna-kiss-3.jpg

http://music.spreadit.org/pics/dick-clark-productions-adam-lambert-pics.jpg

OK, I'll stop now. heh But check your reactions, boys. Which one is hot, which one is disgusting?

[redpepper]

Me too with the okcupid thing and bi men!

I think that all of those photos are hot. There is nothing I like more than a little boy on boy action. I love watching my husband and our tersiary getting it on. I like telling them what I want to see and take pictures of them.

[MonoVCPHG]

Which one is hot, which one is disgusting?

I'd rather watch guys fuck or blow each other than kiss..kissing is too intimate LOL!!

[AutumnalTone]

OK, I'll stop now. heh But check your reactions, boys. Which one is hot, which one is disgusting?

Neither one was hot (Madonna guarantees I stay limp); neither one was disgusting.

Were the first to involve other women--women whom I find attractive--that one could be hot. The other would still garner a "meh."

[Magdlyn]

I'd rather watch guys fuck or blow each other than kiss..kissing is too intimate LOL!!


Thanks for being honest, Mono! And now you can, if you wish, explore why you think men shouldnt be intimate w each other.

[Magdlyn]

Neither one was hot (Madonna guarantees I stay limp); neither one was disgusting.

Were the first to involve other women--women whom I find attractive--that one could be hot.

OK so you think 2 women kissing, if both are hot, is hot.

The other would still garner a "meh."

Meh, meaning, it's not a turn on? But do you think its so disgusting it should never been seen? 2 gay guys on the street, a little PDA, worse than het or lesbian PSA?

[MonoVCPHG]

Thanks for being honest, Mono! And now you can, if you wish, explore why you think men shouldnt be intimate w each other.

I certainly do not think they should not be intimate with each other. You asked which pictures were hot. I don't think any of them are disgusting at all. I merely admitted that it is easier for me to watch men engage in sexual acts other than kissing.

[ImaginaryIllusion]

Because I end up watching TV on Fridays sometimes, and at home we have two channels that dedicate themselves to soft core porn on Friday nights (one disguised them as Art, the other as Documentaries) I drop this little tidbit into the mix:

According to one of the shows disguised as a Documentary, they discussed the relationship between imagry of sexual acts, such as the pics kindly provided earlier in the thread, and the differences in physical response (Ie: turned on, or not) between the subjects corrilated by the participant physical Gender and stated Orientation.

(I am not going to speculate about the validity of the study, methodology etc... it was a Doc, not a paper. I am also not going to address definitions of Gender or orientation used...it was a Doc, not a paper)

The results were as follows:

Almost all females were physically turned on by any of the acts...regardless of their own orientation, and regardless of the subjects in the pictures. It didn't matter if the pic was MM, MF, FF, MFM...etc...didn't mattter that the viewer was Hetero, Homo, Bi...they responded to them all.

The greater majority of males...were phyically responsive only when at least one subject in the pic matched with their orientation. Hetero did not respond to MM, Homo did not respond to FF.


Enjoy.

[LovingRadiance]

I think that I've always been bisexual. I didn't know the term as a young child-but was attracted to both boys and girls. As a young woman I recognized that I "got wet" if someone who "really did it for me" walked by of either sex or god forbid actually paid attention to me.

I was raised in a strict religious environment that did not accept such a thing-but it didn't seem to stop my hormones from being conscious and aware of both sexes.

I tend towards believing that everyone is somewhere on a line
Attracted to:
MEN__________________________Both_________________ ________WOMEN

I think that we are so ingrained in our ideas of right and wrong in society that we forget that it's not an "all or nothing" reality in the world.
My sister identifies as straight. She's never been with another woman and the only one she's openly acknowledged "got her motor humming" to consider was Tyra Banks. But OBVIOUSLY that ONE woman "got her motor humming, so she wasn't stuck completely to the left of my line...

My husband has never felt attraction or gotten his motor running over another man, so maybe he is stuck all the way to the right. I flip flopwith a slight leaning towards the women side in attraction, but have acted more on the side of men.....

[Magdlyn]

I certainly do not think they should not be intimate with each other. You asked which pictures were hot. I don't think any of them are disgusting at all. I merely admitted that it is easier for me to watch men engage in sexual acts other than kissing.

Oh sorry. I think I should have chosen my words better. I didnt mean which was a turn on. Of course, 2 men kissing wouldnt necc be a turn on to a man who IDs as straight. I meant, which image seems more acceptable, considered arousing in general. Do the male images seem more shocking, or abnormal?

I know some ppl here are quite queer friendly. This is more a question for GroundedSpirits OP.

[Magdlyn]

The greater majority of males...were phyically responsive only when at least one subject in the pic matched with their orientation. Hetero did not respond to MM, Homo did not respond to FF.


Enjoy.


But I know Ive seen studies where the most homophobic men (who claimed to be straight) registered most arousal at gay male porn.

[crisare]

we are all actually bisexual and simply alot of us either never meet the right person to bring out those feelings or we pay too much attention to the mean spirited ways of the world looking down on same sex partners I honestly don't agree with this (that we're all bisexual). I am not bi. I have no problems with bi in any form - male or female. I have watched and read porn from both perspectives and found it arousing.

But for me - I have no interest in having sex with another woman. It just doesn't float my boat or light my candle or any of those things. :)

That's not to say that I haven't ever loved another woman or had a crush on another woman, but I've never been sexually attracted to another woman. And I don't think that's because I repress ir or because I haven't met the right person.

If one can be "wired" mono, I suspect one can be "wired" hetero. :) Of course I guess that's another discussion. And all of that is completely separate from finding bi- "disgusting" - which I don't.

[AutumnalTone]

Meh, meaning, it's not a turn on? But do you think its so disgusting it should never been seen? 2 gay guys on the street, a little PDA, worse than het or lesbian PSA?

Not a turn on. I don't find anything disgusting about it.

PDA on the street, whether hetero or homo, isn't anything that warrants much attention, unless they're damn near humping in public. Then my reaction is the same: "Get a room." I might want to watch them in that room if it's a hot female pair (or threesome or whatever).

To provide some additional info, the porn I most watch is female masturbation videos. The hottest video I've ever watched involved two hermaphrodites, each of whom identified (or at least presented) as female.

[River]

Maybe we're not all bisexual. But I often think it's best to think that we're all on a bi-sexual spectrum -- rather than thinking that we're either of three simple kinds: het-, bi-, or gay-as-a-goose.

Sure, some folks are way out on either end, or smack-dab in the middle. But it's a spectrum, after all. More analogue than digital.

[Ceoli]

Kinsey agreed that while everyone may not be bisexual, these different expressions of sexuality exist on the same spectrum.

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/research/ak-hhscale.html#what

[vampiresscammy]

I honestly don't agree with this (that we're all bisexual). I am not bi. I have no problems with bi in any form - male or female. I have watched and read porn from both perspectives and found it arousing.

But for me - I have no interest in having sex with another woman. It just doesn't float my boat or light my candle or any of those things. :)

That's not to say that I haven't ever loved another woman or had a crush on another woman, but I've never been sexually attracted to another woman. And I don't think that's because I repress ir or because I haven't met the right person.

If one can be "wired" mono, I suspect one can be "wired" hetero. :) Of course I guess that's another discussion. And all of that is completely separate from finding bi- "disgusting" - which I don't.

I really am honestly curious casue I truly don't understand, so please don't take this offensively, but how do you love someone without being attracted to them? at least, romantically. I understand family wise, but romantically? i don't get how to love someone without being physically attracted to them.

i know some woman who identify themselves as bi-emotional, but not bi-sexual and this always confuses me. thats not to say that lovign someone should be just physical, but I really don't get how those strong of feelings develop for someone if your not even attracted to them. would you care to share more of loving another woman without the physical? or would anyone care to share loving a same sex person to yourself without a physical attraction? i'm really not trying to be a boob, just see if someone can help me understand.

[crisare]

I really am honestly curious casue I truly don't understand, so please don't take this offensively, but how do you love someone without being attracted to them? at least, romantically. I understand family wise, but romantically? i don't get how to love someone without being physically attracted to them.I'm not offended. We all have different perspectives and views. I just don't know how to explain it, other than just that. :)

I love my best friend with all my heart and I'd do anything for her. She has been my rock for many many many years. But I have no interest in having sex with her (and I don't think she does with me - but the subject has never come up! :D ).

I have had women I have had crushes on, as I've said, but in the emotional "she makes me happy to talk to and see" sense - very much in the NRE "giddy to be around them" sense. But there is no sense of physical arousal when I think about the possibility of sex.

I also know women who I can say from a purely objective perspective are sexy and attractive and so forth ... but while I find them attractive, I am not aroused by them.

[River]

All I know is this...: Some people can form really intense loving bonds which are in most ways quite "romantic," but which don't involve sexual desire. I'd not want to discount these experiences. I think they are very real.

[River]

I'm "bi". Sometimes, with persons of either sex, I am not sexually attracted ... but I really want to be close, intimate ... expressive... even passionate hugging greetings and farewells. But without sexual desire.

Some of my thoughtful friends insist that "eros" doesn't boil down to sexual desire in all cases. Passionate love isn't always sexual, in other words.

[vampiresscammy]

I think I see what your both saying, and I found another thread about it, very helpful. Thank you all for sharing :)

[River]

I think I see what your both saying, and I found another thread about it ...

Which thread is that? Maybe it's worth continuing the discussion over there?

(YGirl would be pleased if we didn't start another already existing thread ... again. :p)

[vampiresscammy]

Which thread is that? Maybe it's worth continuing the discussion over there?

(YGirl would be pleased if we didn't start another already existing thread ... again. :p)

'Non sexual affection' here in General Discussion :)

[MonoVCPHG]

Oh sorry. I think I should have chosen my words better. I didnt mean which was a turn on. Of course, 2 men kissing wouldnt necc be a turn on to a man who IDs as straight. I meant, which image seems more acceptable, considered arousing in general. Do the male images seem more shocking, or abnormal?

I know some ppl here are quite queer friendly. This is more a question for GroundedSpirits OP.

I admit it. The women kissing is much more appealing to me. Yes the male images are more shocking...simply because it's not what I want and of course social conditioning. There were 1300 kids in my high school and only two that identified as gay males the entire time. I had very little exposure during some very influential times of my life.

[LovingRadiance]

Ditto on the OKC thing. It's annoying.

As for the pics-I liked the very first one best. Primarily because it seemed more passionate and emotional....

[LovingRadiance]

Most women I have dated were bisexual or at least said they wanted to be with another woman. So that is my personal anecdotal data.

From studies, I lean more to the idea that men and women fall somewhere on the bisexual scale. I think a big difference is that society is more encouraging of women being with women than with men being with men. So they don't feel as much pressure to act more heterosexual than men do. Plus it seems to be a fad for two women to make out to turn guys on. (While I would like to believe they want each other, I think many cases are just to tease guys.)

Maybe when society becomes less male homophobic, we will see more bisexual men pubically. I have a gut feeling that basic bisexuality is probably equal in both genders.

I tend to agree with this whole post. Not sure what i could functionally add-just very well fits my thoughts. :)

[AutumnalTone]

I'll second Rarechild here and put in my two cents, that its been my experience and overall thoughts that we are all actually bisexual...

That, however, denies the experiences of those women who have never been sexually attracted to other women and men who have never been sexually attracted to other men. Most people may, indeed, be described as somewhere along the spectrum of hetero to homo. There are still people at each end of the spectrum and to describe them as belonging somewhere in the middle pretty much eliminates any notion of normal human variation and runs roughshod over their experiences.

[River]

Yes, and what we need is to respect and honor differences. And it's rather obvious that if there is indeed a spectrum there must be people occupying the far ends of it.

[LovingRadiance]

That, however, denies the experiences of those women who have never been sexually attracted to other women and men who have never been sexually attracted to other men. Most people may, indeed, be described as somewhere along the spectrum of hetero to homo. There are still people at each end of the spectrum and to describe them as belonging somewhere in the middle pretty much eliminates any notion of normal human variation and runs roughshod over their experiences.

See I really believe in the spectrum, but in order for there to BE a spectrum, there must also be SOMEONE on either end.. I think.... if there wasn't-there wouldn't be an "either end".... (scratching head and wondering where II is with his logic).

[Sweetheart]

I am familiar with some of the studies mentioned here which indicate that most men with the strongest homophobic reactions are actually homosexual. It seems to be a defensive reaction. In fact, the researchers believed that gay men being married to straight women was a more common phenomenon than lesbians being married to straight men. The men do it to be socially acceptable, or because they just haven't realized it themselves. If you get on dating websites such as Adult Friend Finder, every couple seems to be comprised of a straight man and a bi woman. It's the same among swingers. Where are all these bi or gay men? Apparently they are married to straight women, and are keeping a low profile!

P.S.
I identify as straight, but I am not homophobic. I have been sexual with men, but only while women were also present. The women were turned on, and that got me turned on. Men by themselves just don't seem to get me going, for whatever reason. Not for lack of trying! ;) :eek:

[ImaginaryIllusion]

Oh, LR, Why'd you have to drag me into this??? I was having fun just watching the bi-girls go at it! :D


Almost all females were physically turned on by any of the acts...regardless of their own orientation, and regardless of the subjects in the pictures. It didn't matter if the pic was MM, MF, FF, MFM...etc...didn't matter that the viewer was Hetero, Homo, Bi...they responded to them all.

The greater majority of males...were physically responsive only when at least one subject in the pic matched with their orientation. Hetero did not respond to MM, Homo did not respond to FF.

So far...the various reactions in this thread, seem to be consistent with the findings. ;)

One of the big bones of contention with the sexuality debate seems to revolve around nature vs. nurture. Elements of personality or identity which are pre-programmed without the conscious choice of the individual, and those which are a product of conditioning from the environment around us...societal norms, family, religious dogma, etc.

...and of course social conditioning. There were 1300 kids in my high school and only two that identified as gay males the entire time. I had very little exposure during some very influential times of my life.
I grew up in similar circumstances. My high school numbered 2600, in a conservative city of a conservative province. I don't recall ever hearing about a single publically self-identified homosexual in the school. The only time it came up was watching Degrassi. This was also before the Canadian charter added sexual orientation to the list of things that the government wasn't allowed to discriminate against.


If one can be "wired" mono, I suspect one can be "wired" hetero. :) Of course I guess that's another discussion. And all of that is completely separate from finding bi- "disgusting" - which I don't.
It may be a different discussion, but this is one of the linchpins that the GLBT lobby used for years to gain their piece of equality. The argument that being Gay, was not a choice. It was no different than being born male, female, black or white. Thus if discrimination was not permitted based on things which the individual had no control over, such as their physical gender, or ethnicity, then there should likewise be no discrimination based on orientation.

From studies, I lean more to the idea that men and women fall somewhere on the bisexual scale. I think a big difference is that society is more encouraging of women being with women than with men being with men. So they don't feel as much pressure to act more heterosexual than men do. Plus it seems to be a fad for two women to make out to turn guys on. (While I would like to believe they want each other, I think many cases are just to tease guys.)

Maybe when society becomes less male homophobic, we will see more bisexual men pubically. I have a gut feeling that basic bisexuality is probably equal in both genders.
The societal norms...vary from country to country...but certainly while men might greet each other with kisses on the cheek in some countries, this sort of PDA would be far less acceptable in most areas of the US, Canada,...and I would expect the UK. It would be far more acceptable for women to do so. Similarly, women could go to a club and dance with a guy, group, or with each other. Guys generally danced with a woman or mixed group, maybe on their own...or more likely not at all.
The relaxation of these norms I think has manifested in the newish so called 'fad' of girls kissing each other at the bars to tease the guys. (This was not something I remember seeing when I first started going to bars) It makes sense...since the straight guys will still react to watching two girls kiss, and they don't have to give anything away by kissing a guy they may not know, or cause a jealousy reaction in a guy they might know. And they also may get something out of it if they're turned on by the act regardless of their own orientation.

Thus, FF PDA's had a head start anyways...and are inclined to favourable albeit subconscious reaction by both sexes in the majority of cases...with the possible exception of gay males. MM interactions however...are having a harder time...the interaction would not garner a favourable reaction in the majority of straight males...and there is still a broad power base governing what defines the mores and norms of society which is heavily influenced by a bunch of old straight guys...such is the way of patriarchy.

I'd agree with Quath that as the fears around Homosexuality subside, the public self-identification of Bi-males will increase. Although I personally doubt it will approach the same levels of female bi-sexuality. Given the apparently biological pre-disposition of females to be turned on by any sexual combination regardless of their own preference, I'd suspect there'd be a greater flexibility in their ability to move away from the extremes of the spectrum. (This is just my current suspicion...only time will tell)


I'll second Rarechild here and put in my two cents, that its been my experience and overall thoughts that we are all actually bisexual...

That, however, denies the experiences of those women who have never been sexually attracted to other women and men who have never been sexually attracted to other men. Most people may, indeed, be described as somewhere along the spectrum of hetero to homo. There are still people at each end of the spectrum and to describe them as belonging somewhere in the middle pretty much eliminates any notion of normal human variation and runs roughshod over their experiences.

I have to agree with SC about some of this. The idea that everyone is Bi, to the exclusion of Hetero, or Homo comes close to invalidating the argument that sexuality is a factor of nature. If everyone was Bi, and could be sexually attracted to, or get involved with either sex, then the decision of which sex to be involved with becomes just another personal choice. It would simply be a matter of conditioning, and/or normalization to make sure that they chose the way society wanted to dictate. Homosexuality would become a 'fixable' problem. And the GLBT movement would be out 30 years of blood, sweat and tears for nothing.

I would not at all be surprised if this was part of the reason that bi's seem to get a lot of pushback from the G&L community...seemingly even more-so than the straight side.


See I really believe in the spectrum, but in order for there to BE a spectrum, there must also be SOMEONE on either end.. I think.... if there wasn't-there wouldn't be an "either end".... (scratching head and wondering where II is with his logic).

As for the question of the spectrum...between Kinsey and anecdotes, and knowing a few myself...I'd agree there is a spectrum, a continuum between purely straight, and purely gay, and a fair amount of middle in-between.

The thing about the spectrum is that there can be end-points on the extremes. And a middle...and not all patterns of human behaviour follow a bell curve that concentrates everything in the middle.

The other thing about continuums is that while they may be analog, there is so little difference between data points that lie beside each other as to be insignificant. Thus any such curve needs usually needs to be broken down (such as Kinsey did) into discrete elements to simplify presentation and discussion of the data. So regardless of if it's a spectrum, it can be reasonably viewed that the majority of people who lie near those extremes could be discussed as 100% straight or gay....regardless if the (hypothetically empirical)number is 100%, or 99.99998273% or 98.223459%.

In this case there's probably some very heavy weighting on the end points...especially on the straight end. I'd expect it to look something akin to a half-bell curve centred on the Hetero-extreme, and sloping down to the Homo-extreme. Or maybe a learning curve. I wouldn't be surprised if the Homo-extreme ended up making it look a bit like a ski-jump ramp. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a slightly shallower curve amongst females in comparison to the male curve, where there would be more. There's probably also different curves based on public, private, and true. I`d need to see more data.

Ok LR....now that you dragged me into this...you can let me know if any of this helped. ;)


That's it for me today I think...some more material to chew on...and probably enough discussion stubs for new threads to keep things going a while. This topic is nothing if not complex.

Cheers.

[Derbylicious]

To look at the bell curve theory posted by II above, I'm wondering if there's a way to do a poll here asking where people fall on the Kinsey scale. Purely out of curiosity.

Personally I've found where I am on the scale shifts according to what I need in my life at any particular time. It's always somewhere in the middle but I don't think that I'm ever equally attracted to both genders.

-Derby

[Sweetheart]

Thanks, Imaginary. That was well stated.

Sure Derby, it would be interesting to see where everyone falls on the Kinsey scale.

I 'd say I'm a 0, although I could be a 1 when I get a little crazy.
My wife R considers herself a 5.
I think she's a 10! ;)

[Ceoli]

The Kinsey Scale actually goes from 0 to 6. (Not sure why he chose that spectrum of numbers)

The beauty of that scale is that it's entirely self evaluative. There's no test you take to find out your score. You pick the number that feels right. I'm with Derbylicious on this one. I've found that my number can shift, though it usually isn't about what's happening in my life. I just sometimes find myself generally attracted more to one gender than the other. Other times I feel the attraction equally.

[GroundedSpirit]

Yes - I was going to mention the classic bell curve likelihood also as it's what I would expect.
But one important distinction I think that needs to be drawn here for clarity would be around a pseudo definition of bisexuality for the purposes of discussion and here's why.
I think you will find that there's a much broader swing in people if you framed the question of "attraction" vs ummmmm, "acceptability". In other words, if you were asking how many people felt an "attraction" to the same sex - let's say at a random meeting etc you would get one group. In other words - have you seen or met people of the same sex that stirred sexual desire in you to a point you would welcome a sexual exchange with them - maybe even initiate it.
I think this group would stand aside from another group that would, in a certain situation, be willing to participate sexually with a same sex partner without reservation. But they would not likely classify this as any true "attraction" - just a willingness and open mindedness that such activity could be exciting and there would be no real hesitation on their part.
That was why I tried to frame the question & definition that way originally because I feel these two spectrums exist and that the associated numbers could vary widely. You would still have the two extremes but I suspect the curve for the latter group would be much wider.

GS

[Rarechild]

The societal norms...vary from country to country...but certainly while men might greet each other with kisses on the cheek in some countries, this sort of PDA would be far less acceptable in most areas of the US, Canada,...and I would expect the UK. It would be far more acceptable for women to do so.

To add some of the other side of the picture, in some countries that are still very patriarchal, like Iraq, the men commonly do more than greet with kisses. It is acceptable to regard sex with women as procreation, and sex with men as a good time. ( Got this from my brother-in-law who spent years there.)There's too much involved in that situation as opposed to countries with more equal rights for women to get into right now, but I think it's fascinating how the status of gender roles plays into a culture's sexual practices.

Homophobia was not a common norm until the Victorian Era. See, there's too much- I have to write papers and take the dog to the vet! But one more...


If everyone was Bi, and could be sexually attracted to, or get involved with either sex, then the decision of which sex to be involved with becomes just another personal choice. It would simply be a matter of conditioning, and/or normalization to make sure that they chose the way society wanted to dictate. Homosexuality would become a 'fixable' problem. And the GLBT movement would be out 30 years of blood, sweat and tears for nothing.

Oh, my. I was certainly not trying to invalidate the GLBT movement entirely! :)

I was not saying that awareness of sexuality is not inborn or god-forbid that it's "fixable"!!! Or a problem.

Again, this is my opinion, but I think those who identify right off are ahead of the game, are sensitive to themselves, are brave and will go through hell to be themselves. Some will never present any homosexual feelings, I agree.

As we often discuss on here, love is not sex, and intimacy is not an orgasm. My thought process is that everyone has it in them to see a person outside of their gender, and outside of the circumstances they've been taught to be comfortable with. To deny the possibility that any person could not develop an intimate love relationship with someone of the same sex that could lead to the sack just seems very limiting to me.

The nature/nurture debate is resolved. It's both. It's circumstances and beliefs.

Sorry I can't write more- I have to go write more. :)
-R

[redpepper]

This whole kinsey thing I find hard to answer. If I think of the women I'm attracted to, I wouldn't say that I fit kinsey. I don't identify as bi because I don't like all women and men. I like female transexuals quite often more than most men and women combined right now. What does that say? There is still gender attached, soooo?

[Ceoli]

This whole kinsey thing I find hard to answer. If I think of the women I'm attracted to, I wouldn't say that I fit kinsey. I don't identify as bi because I don't like all women and men. I like female transexuals quite often more than most men and women combined right now. What does that say? There is still gender attached, soooo?

Yeah, I've had trouble with that bit when I find myself attracted to a transgendered person (which has happened quite a few times). Bisexuality assumes a lot in terms of gender. Which is why pansexual seems to be a term being more widely used.

I think a lot of people misunderstand bisexuality as being attracted to the gender aspect of a person. For me it's more that gender isn't a factor as much. The Kinsey scale doesn't really address that aspect.

Though I do find myself in phases where there are more of one gender I'm attracted to than another gender. But I still see that after the fact, not so much like "Men are more appealing to me right now", etc.

[Quath]

I think gender is on a spectrum (not just male or female but all sorts of stuff in between).

[Derbylicious]

Is there some sort of scale for gender out there too?

[Sweetheart]

Good question!

:confused:

[Magdlyn]

Is there some sort of scale for gender out there too?

Scale? I dunno, but there are terms galore.

Straight
Cis-gendered
Het
Vanilla
Prude
Genderqueer
Genderfucker
Hermaphrodite
Butch
Femme
Ambiguously sexed/gendered
Androgyne
Penis ambivalence
Breast envious
Penis envious
Tgirl
Boi
Transman
Transwoman
Non-op (eration)
Pre-op
Post-op
Man
Woman

And then there are asexual transwomen. Not so many asexual transmen (oh that testosterone)!

[geminisag511]

I think I agree that female bisexuality (at least recently ala Katy Perry) is more acceptable. Frankly, it is encouraged by men, so...women want attention, what better way- have fun with a woman while a man is egging you on. But that's the pop culture side of it.
I am bi-sexual. I am married, love my husband and we have great sex. But, first time I saw a Playgirl I was grossed out at the naked male figure, but when I came across my dad's Playboy's thought it was beatiful and was (I know now) turned on. Weird, pushing 40 and haven't figured it out. I like the sight, smell and touch of a woman, but prefer the feel of a man. Innate, I don't know, I really don't have many "girlfriends", never have. Most of my friends were male. I would rather stick a fork in my eye than go to a Mary Kay party. But if I could hang with a group of guys drinking beer and watching sports, I would have a blast.
Oh yeah, and if my husband wanted to experiment with men, that would be cool with me. But he says no way, and I still wonder....nature or nurture?

[ray]

I can identify with that. When I was younger, I couldn't stand seeing naked men. It seemed gross and scary. I didn't even like seeing men topless. I thought that women were very beautiful and sexy but was never really aroused by the idea of being with a woman. Now that I'm a bit older and have tried some of both and then some, I find that I am definitely sexually attracted to men. While I still find women to be very beautiful, I have little desire to actually be with them.

[Sonic]

Scale? I dunno, but there are terms galore.

Straight
Cis-gendered
Het
Vanilla
Prude
Genderqueer
Genderfucker
Hermaphrodite
Butch
Femme
Ambiguously sexed/gendered
Androgyne
Penis ambivalence
Breast envious
Penis envious
Tgirl
Boi
Transman
Transwoman
Non-op (eration)
Pre-op
Post-op
Man
Woman



Ahem, hermaphrodite is not the correct term, that would be intersexed/intersexual. Hermaphrodite is actually quite offensive :/

[umbraven]

<span style="font-style:italic;">"Among humans, women show greater oxytocin release during sexual activity than do men, and some women show correlations between oxytocin release and orgasm intensity (Carmichael et al., 1994). Such findings raise the provocative possi- bility that women’s greater emphasis on the relational context of sexuality—that is, their greater experience of links between love and desire—may be influenced by oxytocin’s joint, gender-specific role in these processes (in addition to culture and socialization).

Furthermore, the fact that women sometimes develop same-sex desires as a result of falling in love with female friends (a phenomenon rarely documented among men) might be interpreted to indicate that oxytocin-mediated links between love and desire make it possible for a woman’s affectionally triggered desires to ‘‘override’’ her general sexual orientation."</span>

<span style="font-style:italic;">-Lisa M. Diamond
University of Utah
CURRENT DIRECTIONS IN PSYCHOLOGICAL SCIENCE
Emerging Perspectives on
Distinctions Between Romantic
Love and Sexual Desire</span>


According to Lisa M.Diamond (above) Romantic love in the abstract sense of the term, is traditionally referred to as involving a mix of emotional and sexual desire for another as a person. She proposes that sexual desire and romantic love are functionally independent and that romantic love is not intrinsically oriented to same-gender or other-gender partners. She also proposes that the links between love and desire are bidirectional as opposed to unilateral. Furthermore, Diamond does not state that one's sex has priority over another sex (a male or female) in romantic love because her theory suggests it is as possible for someone who is homosexual to fall in love with someone of the other gender as for someone who is heterosexual to fall in love with someone of the same gender.

[ray]

I was a part of one of Lisa Diamond's studies.

[NovemberRain]

I haven't read the entire thread, but being a bi female, I have thoughts. :D

My experience is that it's always been a part of me, it just took some unfolding. My senior year in high school, I read about some gay rights stuff, and in my head, was doing cartwheels, saying, 'women are an option?!!!?!! I can date girls TOO?!!!' I had serious crushes on three women in high school, two classmates and a teacher. Later, surrounded by gay community, I heard all these people telling stories about girl scout camp and thought, 'where were MY lesbians? I didn't know any, or hear anything remotely like that.' Then one day I was going through some old photos, and found one that I had taken at camp. Big ol' butch girl. :D Made my heart go pitty-pat. And I realized I had been there, just didn't know it.

Now, in all fairness, I was sexually abused, by my mother (first, but by no means the last). In spite of all that ick, I'm willing to acknowledge that could have something to with it. I occasionally wondered if I spent 10 years pretty exclusively with women to get my own attention so I could remember. But I really (really) enjoy sex with women, so I don't think it was only a way to get my own attention.

I was also raised on Playboy. It was the reading material of choice. I started with cartoons, and worked my way up to articles. (this would be ages 6-12). I'm certain that in a different sort of society, my dad might have been bisexual. My mother used to say she might be a lesbian, but the only women she could fall in love with were as hopelessly hetero as she was.

So I can see a heavy element of nurture in it for me. But I could easily believe I have an abundance of oxytocin. I fall in love with lots of people. I have fallen in love with people I would never have thought I could.

[Magdlyn]

I haven't read the entire thread, but being a bi female, I have thoughts. :D

My experience is that it's always been a part of me, it just took some unfolding. My senior year in high school, I read about some gay rights stuff, and in my head, was doing cartwheels, saying, 'women are an option?!!!?!! I can date girls TOO?!!!' I had serious crushes on three women in high school, two classmates and a teacher. Later, surrounded by gay community, I heard all these people telling stories about girl scout camp and thought, 'where were MY lesbians? I didn't know any, or hear anything remotely like that.' Then one day I was going through some old photos, and found one that I had taken at camp. Big ol' butch girl. :D Made my heart go pitty-pat. And I realized I had been there, just didn't know it.

Heh, nice story, NR.

...I have an abundance of oxytocin. I fall in love with lots of people. I have fallen in love with people I would never have thought I could.

I can relate. I've always been so boy crazy, and a little bit girl crazy.

I do things now, almost intentionally, to increase my abundant oxytocin. I make sure my living space is clean and freshly scented, and I light candles and incense, sometimes buy flowers. I'm a sucker for long walks on the beach, sharing food with a lover, lots of eye contact during cuddling and sex.

My first date that promised to be sexual with The Ginger, I'd bought and arranged flowers. Surprise! He brought me some more. We had sexual tension after we kissed hello when I had to stop to arrange them in water. I wouldve let them lie on the counter for a while, but he insisted. I arranged them one by one, while I knew he couldnt wait to lay hands on me. Ah, good times.