Hello from C and D

[Times2]

Hi. I am a poly noob too. I saw that term on a previous thread and thought it was cute and figured that I would use it since that is exactly what me and my husband are. We have the real thing. Our kind of love is the truest of the blue. We have been married for nearly 10 years now, (thanks to Anthrax)`long story. We have been sexually involved with another couple the entire length of our marriage and love them dearly, but we are looking for a more committed relationship just for me and him. We have discussed seeking out a third person for our family for the last few years. I was the one who brought it up to my husband who at first was pretty against the idea. He said that no one could come between he and I. When I explained to him that I wanted to love this new person like I love him and wanted him to love the new person as he loves me, a wife, or a husband, then he finally started to understand what it was I was saying. Though I love our other couple, our relationship with them started many years ago, for me it has been twice as long as my marriage to D, we don't have the kind of relationship with them that has been weighing so heavily on my mind. My husband is John Wayne straight and I am bisexual but we don't want just a new sexual partner. In fact, sex doesn't even have to play a role in it, not that its forbidden, just not required. We are looking for someone as committed to us as we are to each other. We want to court this new person and hope to fall in love and hope he/she falls in love with us. My husband and I refer to each other as each others' best friend. We want to add one to that. Part of the thinking that lead us here was what if one of us dies. How will the other go on? The one left behind needs someone to help them get through the pain. Someone to hold the hand and sooth the pain and love back to life and convince me or him to go on. This kind of sounds selfish but our hope is that this new person will benefit from us as well. We want a new member to our family.
Well, that's us. I hope to learn a lot and maybe even find the person we are looking for here.:D

[AnnabelMore]

What if you meet an amazing woman and there's chemistry between all three of you and you start to build bonds and it becomes apparent that love had taken root between her and one of you -- but not with the other? Would you let that relationship flower or insist that she try to love you both or insist that the relationship end? This is a very common scenario.

[Times2]

That is something that I would or he would have to accept. We have talked about just this issue for a long time. We would have to be adult enough and open enough to back up and search out own hearts for any feelings of jealousy or resentment. I could not make someone love me any more than he could make someone love him, let alone try to force someone to love the other. All of us, as a unit, would have to 'accept' the differences in our marriage. We don't want a short term, maybe it will work kind of relationship. We want another husband, or wife, another member of our marriage. That to me means the commitment I made to D, would be made to that person as well. And those he made to me, be made to her or him, and visa versa. I've seen this 'unicorn' term floating around and I don't know that I like it because it makes me think we will never find the soul we seek. But, I have hope. We tossed this around for a couple of years now. We just think it's time to act on it.:)

[AnnabelMore]

First of all, forgive me for being so rude and not saying this at the start -- hello and welcome!

It's good to hear that you guys have thought about this scenario and are committed to honoring whatever love comes your way, even if it doesn't take the exact form you are seeking. :)

It is certainly not impossible for you to find a woman who's into you both, but couples often set out with these very unrealistic ideas of who such a woman needs to be and how it will all work. Thus the unicorn term, since people think they are looking for a real woman but are actually looking for an idealized imaginary woman to full a role, and are shocked when reality doesn't match with fantasy. Here are some good thoughts from the perspective of the potential new woman, that may be helpful for you: http://www.morethantwo.com/coupledating.html

[NathandDom]

We grok, Times2.
"We are looking for someone as committed to us as we are to each other. We want to court this new person and hope to fall in love and hope he/she falls in love with us."
We have had a hard time explaining this part to people at times most monogamists think of polyfidelity as polygamy and I have no idea how the general poly community views it.

That article was very interesting and thank you for sharing it AnnabelMore.

[Times2]

Thank you Anna for the link. Very intelligent piece. I believe that Nathan understands completely what we are looking for. I suppose that the kind of relationship D and I are talking about could be considered polygamy because for all intents and purposes, we are looking for a second wife or second husband, which ever we find, and all the responsibilities and benefits that would bring. I think this is something he and I have discussed for so long that we already, in our hearts have accepted a new wife/husband so now we just have to find him/her. I suppose the feelings we have could be compared to those of the polygamist fundamentalists Mormons without the religion part and there may or may not be sexual contact as that would not be a requirement. Don't get me wrong, I love sex and am bisexual but this is an affair of the heart we seek, not of the loins. So if you look at it in the context of polygamy, then this new person would take on the same role as any husband/wife with one of us or both of us, whatever the case may be. One of the biggest things that brought us here is the death of one of us. You hear these romantic stories of couples who are so entwined spiritually and emotionally that when one of them passes on, the other follows shortly thereafter. That would happen to us. The one left would grieve themselves to death. I have two grown children and he has two nearly adult children, we do not have a child together so if one of us dies, we will lose everything of the other. I want to make sure that there is someone there to lean on for whoever is left. So often you hear about a husband who marries within months after the wife's death or visa versa and everyone presumes the 'affair' was happening prior to the spouses death. I believe that it most likely wasn't and that these grieving partners are looking for someone to fill that void, that emptiness and anyone will do. This way, there is a prior relationship, one that has grown and flourished and everyone involved has had to chance to love and witness the kind of life the other may lead after a passing. I saw the term 'line marriage" in the definition section and it kind of describes it to some degree. Say I die first. D and his other wife, B, grieve for me but are very in love themselves and they go on and have a happy life together but the same worries come about for them. So they seek out yet another so that no one will ever be left alone. The find this person, fall in love, and again there are 3. I think it's a wonderful way to live and keep love alive.:)

[Magdlyn]

This all sounds romantic, if a bit morbid.

You say you are looking for a wife or a husband, yet your husband is straight. So if you "brought in a 3rd to share" that was male, he and your present husband would not be sexual partners, just good friends at most. If he needed to lean on this guy for support if you died, how would that be different than leaning on any of his other guy friends or brothers that he has? Both men would've lost their wife.

You assume they would both then rather quickly find a new wife for them to share, to replace you? How is this different from your scenario where a widower remarries the first woman that comes along? What if they both instead got their own girlfriends or wives? Maybe one would want a new gf sooner, and the other took longer to get over your death and didn't want to date any other women for longer than the other guy?

Do you expect them to go out looking for women with the line, "We are both widowers of the same woman, would you be interested in taking her place?"

[countrygirl]

First, I want to wish you luck on your journey. I completely get what you are saying and applaud the openess of you and your husband to find this other person. My husband and I have brought a third person into our marriage. We started out as friends, and we both ended up falling in love with her, and she loves the both of us. We have often compared it to the love we share for each other. In fact, he refers to both of us as his wives, and we both refer to him as our husband.

I am sure you have thought about this, but I warn you of the emotionality of what you are embarking on. It is a very tricky scenario to get around. There will be times that jealousy and such things can take you to the brink of disaster. Even with the love all of us share, it can be a slippery slope sometimes. But, as long as everyone is willing to sit down and talk about whatever issues creep up, and find a solution that works for everyone, then you should be fine.

Again, I applaud you and your husband and wish you the best of luck finding what you are looking for.

[Times2]

Thank you both for your replies. I am sorry it all sounds a bit morbid but it is how we got here. And Magdlyn, we have discussed this and you are right the most another man could offer my husband is companionship and friendship should it be me that passes first. And, of course, they will have both lost a wife. If they choose to meet and marry someone new then that would be their decision to make. And if they choose to end the 'sharing' upon my death, that is also their decision to make. The purpose isn't to continue the marriage, that is why it isn't exactly a 'line marriage'. The purpose is make sure that the one left behind has someone to lean on, either through companionship or intimate relationship, whatever the case may be. I just want to make sure my husband has a friend, someone who know him and knows what he needs to get through his loss. If we meet another man, then he will know exactly what D is going through and hopefully will be able to extend a friendship unlike his other friends could because he will have known and hopefully loved me as intimately has D has. If we meet another woman, then he will have her to continue to live for and she will help him through this hard loss even if she never felt anything other than deep friendship for me.
The same would be said of for me if D should pass on first.

We have thoroughly discussed all of these issues. We have not made this decision based solely on the eventuality of one of us dieing but it is what started the conversation and at first my husband said things like 'it could work but you would always be the most important one in my life.' Our conversations have evolved from that to 'when we meet her or him, we will know because I will love that person enough to call her my wife or him my best friend."

There are many reasons we have decided to find another. We have talked about the financial aspect of it the benefits to both that person and ourselves. We are a mature, intelligent and open minded couple who have room for another and love enough to share and know what we want. We know that communication is key. I don't look at it unlike meeting another wife or husband. I have made vows to D and he to me. We take those vows seriously and to love, honor, and cherish is first and foremost. We both have the expectation to make those vows to the third as well, though it would be a vow of friendship to a male on D's part. D has a very good friend in the male of our sm/bf couple. But he is devoted to his wife, not to me. We jokingly refer to him as my boyfriend and she as my husband's girlfriend but they are devoted to one another, we are wonderful, loving friends but are secondary to their family unit and their marriage. We want a third within the confines of OUR marriage, devoted to us and us to him or her.

I am truly surprised that a poly community seems to be a bit baffled by this or almost seems to be questioning my intent. If you aren't, then I apologize for the assumption.

I am here to make new friends and learn new things and see if my husband and I can make that ever elusive love connection with another. I appreciate all the input and if nothing else, my thoughts and intentions are really getting explained and put out there for the most upfront and honest way possible I guess. :) This can only be a good thing.

[Magdlyn]

D has a very good friend in the male of our sm/bf couple. But he is devoted to his wife, not to me. We jokingly refer to him as my boyfriend and she as my husband's girlfriend but they are devoted to one another, we are wonderful, loving friends but are secondary to their family unit and their marriage.

See, I feel sort of sad that you 2 have a loving working quad situation but you'd toss it aside if and when you find your "third." Good friends, lovers and good (I assume) sex is hard to find in this life. Would it be so easy to let them go after all you've shared, if and when you find your unicorn?

For example, TL4everU2 here has a blog about his and his wife's long and frustrating search for another couple.


We want a third within the confines of OUR marriage, devoted to us and us to him or her.

I am truly surprised that a poly community seems to be a bit baffled by this or almost seems to be questioning my intent. If you aren't, then I apologize for the assumption.

I guess, so many here that were partnered and newly opened to poly, that looked for a unicorn at first, for whatever reason, have been burnt really badly by it. What usually happens is, once NRE fades the unicorn starts to prefer one or the other of the couple, and major jealousy and hurt feelings ensue.

I am here to make new friends and learn new things and see if my husband and I can make that ever elusive love connection with another. I appreciate all the input and if nothing else, my thoughts and intentions are really getting explained and put out there for the most upfront and honest way possible I guess. :) This can only be a good thing.

Good luck on your quest. There are as many ways to do poly as there are people practicing it.

[AnnabelMore]

I don't think anyone is baffled -- what you're looking for is very commom (thus the existence of a term for it, "unicorn hunters). It's actually quite the opposite, I think most people on this board are very familiar with the idea of a couple seeking a third, and the purpose of our questions is to see if you've thought through the implications of what you're seeking more thoroughly than others who've come before and met with trouble they didn't expect.

I hope that doesn't sound too condescending?

Another question -- what if you meet another person who's into you and who you're both into, but this person had an existing relationship, or even am existing life partnership. Would that be acceptable, or are you only looking for someone single?

[freyamarie]

Maybe I'm just in a weird mood today but this thread is fascinating.
I'd like to see how this plays out along the journey. Now who is the morbid one? And no, I am not predicting disaster or anything like that.
I think the honesty about how they got to where they are is very refreshing. There really are 'couples' who are that intertwined (that they pine away when one of them passes on). Coming to poly out of a conversation that started from concern for a partner in the event of the passing of the other is not something I'd ever heard of before.
As a relative newbie myself, I get where the 'oldies but goodies' are coming from about the unicorn.
I suspect that many of us ventured into poly with a unicorn in mind and eventually realized how we were blocking ourselves and our partners from being open to love however it comes along.
Being open to different possible configurations takes a lot of work, and perhaps, a level of commitment and communication that induces so much anxiety in some that they hold onto an ideal that seems safe. I'm by no means accusing any particular couple here of doing that, just wondering about the whole unicorn phenomena. Sure it 'seems' less fraught with complications but the realities I've seen and read about put that myth to rest.
Sorry to ramble in your thread... I really do hope ya'll will blog or some such about your journey and the transformations you experience.

[Derbylicious]

What happens if the person you eventually meet happens to die first? Would they need to be replaced so that when one of you die the original spouse still has someone to lean on?

[Times2]

Thank you for your insight. It is much appreciated. We don't plan on casting aside our couple. We love them and would never do that. However, they are sexual partners who have cooled off to about once or twice a year. That relationship has become more of a hang out have a good time together non-sexual relationship mostly. They are very, very good friends. However, the reason that has cooled off is because they are devoted to one another. Would we be able to lean on them in a time of need, certainly, but it isn't the same. For him, her needs will always take precedence, for her his will, we are outsiders to their marriage. I don't think of myself as a sex tool first with them but that is pretty much, other than great friendship, what we are.

That's why we are here to find someone who will put us first, be our wife/husband. Our friends would completely understand that and would not pass judgement on us for it. Our new person would love them too, but sex would not be a requirement, and if our new person didn't want them to be involved with us sexually anymore then we wouldn't because the new person would be our new marriage partner and therefore outrank our friends.

It's complicated I suppose, but it's something we have decided to do and hope to grow and find someone to share our life, our marriage with.

[redpepper]

Wow, cool that you have been with another couple all your marriage. I have been married for ten years too and poly longer than that. We have run the gamut on relationship configurations and have found over the years that our independence of each other is what has brought the most successful relationship dynamics. Seeing ourselves as a couple only freaked people out for the most part or they eventually fall in love with one of us, not both... We would usually start with great sex and they would change to love of one of us while we both would love them. When we started we started as a triad. I met my husband that way. He came into our relationship. My other marriage ended as a result. I was naive to think that it would work. It rarely works for the long haul... if I had known better at the time I would of suggested a vee, but we were stubborn and it blew apart.

Its hard to wrap ones head around independence (the opposite to co-dependence) when all we know and are raised with is coupledom, but I really suggest trying to figure it out. It has meant that we are now the strongest we have ever been and could live with or without each other without feeling like love is scarce. Love is abundant if we let go of owning one another and feeling like we will be alone in life.

There is a lot here to read on "unicorns" if you are interested. Its a hot topic and comes around often. There are also some really good writings on "foundations" and "lessons" in terms of poly... might help too. Check the tags in the search engine and you shall see what tags their are. Looking around and getting an idea on peoples stories might be helpful. Thank you for not starting a account where you both write... its so confusing and annoying for those of us reading. Appreciate that :)

[Times2]

I also find this thread completely fascinating, and most informative and enlightening. Some of this is still unfamiliar to me though, like 'v' or 'vee'...what is that exactly?

As for the new third having a previous relationship or current relationship, well we aren't really at that particular point but if the person we fall in love with is involved elsewhere, then we would definitely have to reevaluate and since that person would be part of the new person we want to be part of then we together would have to discuss if we would want to continue or if it would be better to let them go. I don't want to sound selfish, but we know what we want, and we hope to find a single person to add to our marriage, not a couple. We kind of don't think that will be much of an issue simply because we won't be looking for that couple, but be seeking out a single who hopefully will be seeking for a couple like us.

You may start thinking now that what if the new person meets someone and wants the chance to explore their feelings with that 4th person...that would not be something we would be willing to be a part of. We aren't looking for another couple, we aren't looking for a quad relationship, or communal marriage. We simply want one more person to be married to. And if that person is married to us, then there would be no others but us. We want a wife, or a husband, a faithful spouse for the rest of our lives.

Now the question has been raised about the possibility of the new person dieing before me or D. I hadn't really thought of that but we discussed it and we both agree that if that should happen, then we will have been blessed with the opportunity to have had a loving, nourishing relationship with that soul and would be able to comfort each other during our time of loss. Would we then go seek out another? Maybe, maybe not. To find it once is apparently a long shot, twice might be impossible.

I really appreciate the responses from each and every one of you. This is keeping the conversations between me and D very interesting indeed.

[nycindie]

Some of this is still unfamiliar to me though, like 'v' or 'vee'...what is that exactly?

Read the sticky note titled Glossary and Definitions at the top of this New to Poly forum.

[AnnabelMore]

I don't want to sound selfish, but we know what we want, and we hope to find a single person to add to our marriage, not a couple. We kind of don't think that will be much of an issue simply because we won't be looking for that couple, but be seeking out a single who hopefully will be seeking for a couple like us.

My guess is that this will be greatly limit your options of partners, especially considering that you're not (I assume?) in the age bracket where people are not yet likely to have sought out a life partnership (late teens, early 20s). There are definitely some great solo poly people out there who are older than that (hi Nycindie! :)), but it may well be that they are single out of choice and aren't looking for a closed life partnership.

I think it's this desire that the new person come without existing partnerships or existing "complications" that leads to unicorns often being younger then the couple they're joining (definitely a pattern I've noticed, at least). This can lead to other problems, unfortunately, such as the new person being a little naive and not really knowing what they want or what they're getting into, and/or not having the communication and relationship skills to navigate the situation once they're in it.

It takes someone really strong and confident to stand up for their needs in a healthy, effective way in the face of two people with a long-standing partnership when they're the newbie who's still figuring out how they fit in, *especially* when the other people are older and more experienced. Such a person who can really handle that tricky position well -- probably an experienced poly person in your own age bracket -- is likely to have one or more old flames, lovers or partners that they'd be loathe to discard for a couple of new people and an untried triad. I'm not saying it'd be impossible to find such a person... just hard. Maybe a divorcee, or a widow or widower?

You may start thinking now that what if the new person meets someone and wants the chance to explore their feelings with that 4th person...that would not be something we would be willing to be a part of. We aren't looking for another couple, we aren't looking for a quad relationship, or communal marriage. We simply want one more person to be married to. And if that person is married to us, then there would be no others but us. We want a wife, or a husband, a faithful spouse for the rest of our lives.

To be honest, I do find this bit really, really selfish. You two have been involved with another couple for years, so you *know* that commitment and sexual exploration with others are not mutually exclusive. So why demand sexual fidelity from your new third when you've been living happily without it for so long? Why assume they can't be serious with you and still be interested in someone else? Why leave the door open to continue being involved with the other couple you two have your long-standing affair with as long as it's ok with the newbie, but bar the door to anyone else they like?

You two have been together a long time. You have your established patterns and rhythms, you know with absolute certainty the role you play in each other's lives. There's great safety and comfort in that. No matter how welcoming you try to be to your new third, it will take a long time -- years, if ever, before he or she really feels on the same "level" as that with you (after all, I'm sure it didn't all happen overnight for you two!). So under the scenario you've described, you two get the security of your settled love AND the thrilling, scary, exciting, tumultuous experience of new love... while the new person only is allowed the latter. How is that supposed to make him or her feel like they're really being treated fairly? You two got to decide for yourselves that you were ready to open up to a new love without it riskng your existing love... how is it that the new person is never to be allowed to make that same determination?

I'm absolutely sure you guys have pure hearts and only the best intentions, I am. But what you're looking to do will radically alter your existing relationship and build brand new ones within the triad you look to form. That can be wonderful, but it wil also almost certainly be unpredictable, and it will take a great deal of discarding of preconceptions and openness to what comes, and to the fact that it may not look like what you expect. With what you've described, you guys make all the choices, set all the standards and rules, and the new person can take it or leave it. I don't see that as authentically building a new, equal, three-way relationship... I see that as trying to find the simplest, least threatening way to add a new person to your existing relationship like an accessory, like (as you've described above) a "love insurance policy" for when one of you dies. The reason I've taken all the time to type this out is to convey one message -- it's likely gonna be more complicated than that.

Btw, a "vee" is when one person is partnered to two people who aren't partnered to each other.

[Times2]

Thank you so much for your input Anna. It is greatly appreciated and you have made us look again at what it is we expect. You are right, some of this does seem very very selfish for us to ask of someone in the poly community. As we have been posting and putting into black and white our intentions and thoughts, the more we are understanding that maybe the polyamorus community isn't where we need to be. Apparently we are polygamists. Now that you have brought up the issue of the other couple, we can and have agreed that because tje other couple are our best friends and will understand exactly what we are looking for and why its important to us, we will not ask the new person to accept or be part of any extra marital activities with them and we will cease as well. How can we ask someone to be faithful to us and accept it be ok if we wanna get kinky with old friends. I suppose we just learned that what we truly want is a plural marriage...polygamy. Exclusivity between 3 spouses. Thank you for helping us learn that about ourselves.

[AnnabelMore]

Heh, it's funny, I suppose it's pretty obvious that my suggestion would've been to consider opening up more rather than the reverse. But you guys are not me and I certainly can't tell you what's right for you. I'm glad you found my words of use.

I would say that the sort of closed, three-person polygamous marriage you're seeking is a form of polyfidelity (closed relationships between more than two people), which is a form of polyamory (love between more than two people), so you're still in the family in my book. :)

You may continue to get people questioning your method, since more than one person here had started with the goal you did and then moved to a more open model (as per RP's story above). Still, I would encourage you to continue viewing our community as a potential source of help even if you chose not to identify with it per se, since 1) we have members in three-person relationships and people who practice polyfidelity, and 2) you say it's helped so much already.

I do have to ask -- why do you consider sexual exclusivity such an important condition for your new partner when you have two examples of marriages -- yours and that of your friends -- that have functioned without it for so long with no diminishing of love or commitment? It puzzles me.

[Times2]

I suppose that's just where we are right now. You're right, it has worked for us ten years and for them almost 19. There has been no interference with the loving devoted relationship between the married couples. But, again, they are devoted to each other and we are devoted to each but separate as couples and we are at the point that we are just ready to add another spouse. We love J and B but they aren't fullfilling the role we need filled now. They completely understand that this is where we are in our lives and our marriage and that they can't be what we really want, another wife, yes, I believe, a second wife....a sister wife without the religion and perhaps with intimate sexual contact for all if that happens to be the way it works out.

I can see why some might think we became in the post, 'less open' but this was never about sexual freedom. It's always been the need to.invite another spouse into the marriage we already have. I suppose, just as a polygamist man would meet, court, then introduce the potential to the first and second wives for their approval...I won't make a direct example of any particular religion in a negative light, but you understand. The difference is, there is only me, no second, no religion, and we will meet her together, court, see if the love is there and then make the same comittments to her as we did to each other.

[AnnabelMore]

For the record, when I spoke of openness I didn't just mean in terms of sexual exploration. I was speaking in terms of your ideas about what you're willing to accept in a new partner and your thoughts about the shape things must take for you to find what you're looking for (a lifelong loving commitment from another person).

If your definition of "spouse" never in the past meant "someone who only ever has sex within the marriage", then changing it now to mean that seems to me to be a narrowing, or closing in. See what I'm saying? I agree that sexual freedom is far from the most important thing in life, the shift just puzzles me since it seems like you weren't in a place where you wanted to entirely cut off to other lovers until you realized that you were setting a double-standard. So, if it was never something you needed before, and don't need from each other now, why do you need it from the new person?

Understand, though, that I'm not trying to tell you that what you want or where you're at is wrong or bad -- I'm just exploring it along with you since, as you and others have commented, this sort of thing is so dang *interesting*. :)

[redpepper]

It's always been the need to.invite another spouse into the marriage we already have. I suppose, just as a polygamist man would meet, court, then introduce the potential to the first and second wives for their approval...I won't make a direct example of any particular religion in a negative light, but you understand. The difference is, there is only me, no second, no religion, and we will meet her together, court, see if the love is there and then make the same comittments to her as we did to each other.In Polygamy, from what I understand is common, its the man that calls the shots. Is this what you are suggesting?

"Inviting someone into you already established marriage;" that says to me that this woman would give up everything to be with you, including who she is as person. What of her friends, her career path, her family, kids, belongings? I haven't heard you mention any kind of thought that she would have a life too and that you would actually be entering HER life also. It all sounds one sided and ya, selfish. Polygamy outside of the religious context that we have seen on the media is not about a woman giving up her freedom/life and being handed over to a man who is to make her his wife (like the brides in the media), but a woman with a life and freedoms. Have you had any thought on that?

Its far more complicated than simply adding someone. I'm sure you know that, but I don't get the sense that you have thought of that too much. Have your read stories here about unicorns and the couples that seek them? I suggest you do as there maybe some learning from that.

It isn't uncommon to unicorn hunt (it is uncommon that couples become a triad the way that you are hoping to achieve your goal). What is WAY too common is what women and men go through when they are "added" to a couple with the naive assumption that they have rights and freedoms within that only to find that they don't and get really hurt and abused emotionally from abandonment, neglect, disposability when they are not achieving the goal of the couple etc. That isn't to say that you are these people, but its important for the readers here and maybe for you too to understand that there is potential for abuse in this scenario.... I hope you understand that.

For the record: Polyamory is an umbrella term that includes polygamy and polygny, it also includes many other things, but you are in the right place to talk about this.

[Times2]

Just as anyone would go forth and seek out a life mate, that is what we intend to do. I never said he would call the shots. WE have decide to find another spouse. Does that mean that person has to give up their individuality? Of course not. Does that mean that we are gonna hover over that person and oppress them to do our bidding? Hell no. Are we gonna make her renounce her family and everyone in her current life? ABSURD. Does that mean that we will seek out the best fit to our current lives? Absolutely. When I met my husband, I didn't set out thinking that I would marry him and 'rule' him and take all his individuality away and make him forget or leave behind everything and everyone he knew. When he married me, he didn't set about trying to undo everything I had done in my life and have me do only his bidding or somehow control me. No real marriage filled with love does that. What we did do was ask each other to be faithful. And I am sorry, I don't believe our relationship with the other couple makes us unfaithful individually, it makes us kinky together.

This abuse, controlling and emotional oppression you speak of is NOT what we are about. As I have never had a wife, or a third person within my marriage, I do not know exactly what to expect, but I didn't have that absolution with my husband either and things have been fabulous. Hopefully, with the same dedication and affection any marriage is built on, one with a third party will also be just as rewarding.

I find it rather annoying that I registered at this site to put us in particular circles to maybe, just maybe, find a person that WE as a unit, could love, honor and cherish within our marriage, just as he and I do with each other. A lot of what I have gotten thus far is skepticism, condescending ridicule and the advice that maybe I should 'rethink' what it is I truly want and if it doesn't involve everyone having sex with everyone and anyone then it truly isn't a good thing.

I am not a religious fanatic and have no wish to add a second wife to my marriage based on the sexual whims of my husband. He has no wish to add a second wife to our marriage to be some domineering masculine tyrant over her. I think it is insulting to assume that is our 'ulterior motive'.

I introduced ourselves, made it perfectly clear and precise what it was we were looking for and thinking of and still the comments coming back to us are condescending, and indirectly insulting.

I am sorry if I have wasted anyone's time. I have made our case as honestly and completely as I believe I can. I don't wish to offend anyone, and if I have, forgive me.

[Mya]

if it doesn't involve everyone having sex with everyone and anyone then it truly isn't a good thing.

I'm quite sure nobody was suggesting that. I think the only problem is this:

made it perfectly clear and precise what it was we were looking for and thinking of

Like you said, you have a precise picture in your heads what this new relationhip will look like. And that is the thing that usually leads to problems. People here have been suggesting that maybe you should open up a bit more - not because they would want you to have sex with "everyone and anyone" - but because your image of the new person is quite strict. He/she may not be able to fulfill that role like you would like them to. If you would let go some of the requirements then maybe it would be somewhat easier for the new person to fit in.

[AnnabelMore]

For the record, I never read any gendered imbalance into any of this. And I think that a LOT of what you've described and where you've gone in your thinking is right on target. But it's very, very easy to end up acting in controlling, unfair, and hurtful ways to a third person entering a relationship with a long-established couple without ever meaning to in the scenario you've described. As someone who's in a not-dissimilar situation to what you're looking for myself (see my signature, or my blog -- my gf and I don't consider each other "wives", but that's because our relationship is still fairly young, and we're taking it slow, exploring where we're going... could happen some day!), I've become sensitive to those issues. Reading other people's horror stories is really depressing. :/

I hope I'm not projecting onto you by trying to tease out any potential issues. As I alluded above, we've seen some real horror stories on here from both sides of the unicorn/unicorn-hunters scenario. Where I got concerned was, indeed, about the sexual exclusivity issue, but not because I think there's anything wrong with polyfidelity or exclusivity generally, not at all. Mono relationships, closed poly, I'm all for it. What works for you is what works for you in that regard. Rather, it raised a red flag to me that something you guys never needed before -- exclusivity -- should be a non-negotiable need for the new person. I mean, how is that *not* supposed to look a little odd? I see that you're requiring the new person to give something you didn't give each other and I ask "why"?

Because you two both were involved with the other couple and it's harder for three people to all be involved with the same folks? Because you were comfortable with your old friends but the idea of the new person bringing up an interest in unknown people is too uncomfortable? I hope and assume it's about those things, which would be a lot healthier than just a need for control. But for you to say "our marriage involved sex with other people before but if our new spouse wanted something like that with someone they liked, rather than with the people we like, no way jose, we'd drop Mr./Mrs. Third like a hot potato if he/she wanted that"... I mean, surely you can see why that might make someone say "woah, what?"

[Magdlyn]

I am very sorry if you feel our comments here have sounded condescending. Perhaps you thought unicorn hunters would be more numerous here on this board. Perhaps you thought a couple "adding" another individual to share was a common thing in the polyamory world, and you'd be surrounded by successful triads and Vs living in poly-fi married sorts of ways.

Now instead you've found lots of people who had been former unicorn hunters or unicorns, where things have gone badly and people have been extremely burnt and learned to love polyamorously in different sorts of configurations.

I'm sure we don't mean to condescend. Instead, we are taking your ideal scenario and saying, all well and good, but here is where things can go wrong. Practical, down to earth advice, based on experience. Now you feel like we are bursting your bubble and it hurts.

Since I am a lactation specialist, let me propose a metaphor. Say a pregnant mother comes to one of our support group meetings expecting breastfeeding and parenting to be a bed of roses. She will sit in her white wicker rocking chair in the nursery, nursing her baby while wearing her prettiest floral button down the front nightgown. When the baby nurses blissfully to sleep, she will gently lay it down in its perfectly apportioned crib, leave the room, waft off to the master bedroom, have satisfying sex with her husband, and get a nice 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep.

But the more experienced moms say, Oh, but there will be days where the baby is teething, he hasn't slept in 18 hours, cries when you put him down, bites your nipple when you try to nurse. You haven't had a shower in 3 days, you've been living in sweatpants and a tshirt covered in spitup, can't remember when you've slept more than 2 hours at a stretch, and sex is a distant dream of long long ago.

Will this mother get angry at her ideal scenario being shot down, leave the meeting in a huff and never come back? Or will she take in that while she can hope for the best (ideal dream), she better plan for the worst (likely reality)?

[redpepper]

That isn't to say that you are these people, but its important for the readers here and maybe for you too to understand that there is potential for abuse in this scenario.... I hope you understand that.Did you read this part? Or any of what I said and others that indicated that we weren't necessarily talking about you? This is a public forum. We are talking to everyone who reads here.

I have no idea who I am talking to as you have not indicated which partner and the way of writing changed. Super annoying and confusing. If you insist on not getting two accounts in order to indicate that you are in fact two different people could you at least do us the honour of SAYING who is talking? Thanks, that would be very helpful.

I wish you luck. I don't have much more to say here as I really don't see how you can move forward without reading other threads and addressing some of the common issues that occur in this type of relationship dynamic you seek. I understand its hard to hear, but as Annabel said, a lot of us have been through this already or witnessed others that have and have some wisdom on the topic. It seems that you see us giving you are hard earned wisdom as scepticism and condescending ridicule. Well, I suggest you choose to not read it that way. If you are unable to understand and appreciate where those that have been there have been, then I got nothin' left for you. :)

Let us know how it goes. I love to be proved wrong. Bye for now. :)

[Times2]

No one is leaving in a huff. No one is living in a fantasy bubble. No one is too unintelligent to understand anything. And I have said previously, I will do the posting for us BOTH. WE are a unit, so no need for a second account. WE post together. If you want to address one of us or the other, go ahead, we will both see it and both will answer. Shouldn't be too hard to understand and not too annoying hopefully.

Thanks for all the input. I'll be reading lots of forums. Let me reiterate for clarity...again. WE are mature, grown adults in a loving, successful marriage, seeking another mature adult to marry and participate in a plural marriage, faithful to one another. IN THE PAST, we have participated in kinky sex with another couple, but no more, hence, more a friendly hanging out having fun kind of relationship. We love them, but we are looking for a spouse who will fill an empty spot in our lives that our couple cannot. No one is looking to oppress anyone, no one is looking to control anyone. Just as my husband took a vow to love honor and cherish me, and I to him, we want to make that vow to someone else. That will mean, they, and we will promise NOT TO CHEAT. Should we, as a marital unit, decide to participate in kinky sex with anyone, it will be done and decided on as a group, or not at all. I have never had a boyfriend on the side and no one will, no one has ever had a girfriend on the side and no one ever will. WE will have each other. Take it or leave it.

Maybe everyone is getting confused because you might think that each of us, at possibly different times, were seeing one or the other member of the couple, ie me with J and D with B, on the side, individually. No, that never happened. WE as a couple, a unit, got kinky with them together. Never individually. We are faithful to each other, I don't consider our kink socials to be an exclusivity negating act. I've said it before, to us, and to them, we and they are sex tools. LOL and we love them and they us, but they know and we know, we want more. We want a spouse. So sexy sessions with them will no longer be on the table....unless, the new spouse is ok with it and also participates. We have no desire to have sex with or be in a loving relationship with her ex or her other lovers no more than I want to have sex with or have a relationship with his exes or he with mine. Except for our mutual decision to have kinky sex with our friend/lovers, I chose to forsake all others when I married him, he did the same for me, she must do that for us and us for her, if not, then she is not the one for us. Plainly, simply.

I understand and can see why you all think we are being unrealistic and maybe a bit selfish, however, when one goes out to find the woman or man of their dreams, they don't settle for second best or settle for someone who is less than what they are looking for to spend the rest of their lives with. We will take it slowly. We will have to work on the marriage. We will have a new family member, and a new extended family with complicated family dynamics of their own. We understand fully. We are mature and we can handle whatever comes. We are not making a blind decision. We aren't making an uninformed decision. We aren't expecting some unrealistic, bunny rabbit and fluffy cloud, tip toe through the tulips either. We are going into this with our eyes wide open.

For anyone else reading this very interesting thread, I have some advice; Know what you want. Think it through. Try to be realisitc in your expectations. Don't expect everyone will understand. Make sure all parties involved know what you are thinking. Be clear and concise. Don't settle for less than exactly what you want. Good Luck, and Happy Hunting. :)

[AnnabelMore]

Ok, I get the distinction you're making with the playing-with-others-together-but-never-separately =/= non-exclusivity thing. It's not the way I would wanna do non-monogamy, but I'm certainly not going to tell you it's not the way to go when it's made you happy for ten years.

I'm sorry you've felt so attacked in this thread. I won't try to tell you any further that you shouldn't look for what you're looking for, and will instead think about where all this is coming from on our ends, and share some general thoughts that may be of use to you as you move forward.

I've been thinking about this thread in comparison to this thread -- http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16979 -- and asking myself why, exactly, do we think "unexpected polyfi triad = sounds great" and "planning on a polyfi triad = sounds like trouble"? Relatedly, why does this graphic exist -- http://www.obsidianfields.com/lj/polyprivilege.gif ?

Veau talks in the graphic about privilege and entitlement... getting special treatment and feeling like you're owed special treatment. If one takes his analysis to be correct, then one way to interpret it is that unicorn-hunting is problematic because it makes the statement "what we've built is special and someone new should join us, rather than us trying to reshape what we've built to fit someone new."

I have mixed feelings about the graphic. I find it funny, but I also find it to be a bit harsh to unicorn-hunters, as many in this community are. Surely, the vast majority of hunters, like you guys, have only the best intentions. So, again, why does the sort of search you're engaged in have such a bad rap? Why is it awesome if it happens accidentally but not-so-hot when it's sought?

All I have to go on here are my own experiences and the stories of others that I've read. And I think a lot of it is the stories. I feel like I'm getting repetitive when I talk about horror stories, but it really is true... we see too many sad folks who tried what you're trying from one end or the other and had it explode. Whereas when people find a triad serendipitously it doesn't seem to explode in quite the same way (all this talk of explosions... I feel like we're all mad scientists engaging in love experiments now :p).

So... well, I *know* I'm being repetitive now, but... why?? Why don't we have more (any? not sure, but I haven't seen one yet) happy stories of successful unicorn hunts when we have a whole thread just for success stories in the blog section?

If I had to guess, I'd say it's because human relationships are crazy-complex. Between two people it's tough enough, but with three it becomes exponential. Almost always, things work differently than you think they will in one particular or another. With a vee, you really just have two two person relationships, so it's not *quite* as unpredictable. But a three-person marriage, no matter who's having sex with whom, is a triad. Staying flexible seems like the best way to ensure success. Note that in the thread above the existing couple has already been through a couple of permutations, from a vee to a triad and from casual to serious. If they'd started out thinking that the way they'd begun was the way it had to stay, there'd be one or more broken hearts between the three of them by now.

When you start out saying I want this sort of naturally complex, unpredictable relationship and it needs to be *precisely* this way, people wince. Because you *might* get lucky, but you're more likely heading for an explosion. Knowing what you want isn't enough, because everyone can start on the same page and then discover that things have shifted. If only one structure is acceptable to you, and the threeway-love you find doesn't end up fitting that structure, what can you do but end it? But by the time real bonds of love have been established, it's often not so easy to just pull the plug.

That's why I was so appreciative of the fact that you guys recognized that your new person might become a lover, emotionally and/or sexually, to one of you but not necessarily to both. I think that is a type of flexibility that is absolutely crucial to actively seeking a new partner as a couple. Technically one could say that, polygamous marriage goal or not, the fact that you two don't require your third to love you both the same means you're not "true" unicorn hunters, and it may well be that you're getting flack because of the poor performance of people who are after something very similar but more rigid than what you're after. Clearly there are some things you're not willing to bend on, but I would encourage you to hang on to that flexibility to the extent that you can -- my guess is that it will serve you well.

The other major point of concern, aside from the need for flexibility in complex scenarios, are the imbalances inherent whenever a new person joins a long-established couple (for this I can draw more on my own experience, in addition to stories). That imbalance is the reason I pretty much always share that couple-dating article I posted previously with anyone in a situation remotely similar to yours.

As I described above, a large source of potential imbalance comes from the tendency of an unattached person who wants to join a couple to be younger and/or less experienced. I won't rehash that point, but you can see how someone in that position could end up accepting things that make them feel used without knowing that they're not respecting their own boundaries. So, I would encourage you to be wary of anyone who's more than a couple of years younger than you, who hasn't dated much, or who just gives off an aura of being a bit naive.

Setting the question of age/experience aside, it's just easy, generally, to find yourself a little cowed by a relationship that's existed for a long time when you're trying to become a part of it. Two people who have been building a partnership together for many years have their own rituals, their own private language, that forms a sort of wall that can take years for an outsider to scale, even when the couple is trying to let the person in. There's just so much history there, so many compromises that they've devised to fit them perfectly. How does the new person find a place of comfort for their own unique ways of doing things without feeling like there's either no space for them or like they're breaking apart the things the couple has already built?

These are huge challenges for the new person which the couple may naturally be blind to, the way a fish isn't actively aware of water. It takes a very sensitive awareness of what the new person is going through and a willingness to bend and accept changes to the existing relationship beyond what you may have initially anticipated to truly build a place where the new person is an insider. I would encourage you to make peace with the idea that if you find what you want, your lives together will never be quite the same. Like having a kid, but moreso even. You will be building something new, just like you built a new life when the two of you first embarked on the journey of marriage. I think a lot of unicorn-hunting horror stories come about because couples didn't realize this fact and freaked out when they saw their relationship changing to accommodate a whole new human being. I see you've acknowledged above that you will need to work on the marriage and that it will be complex, and I think that's an excellent place to be starting from.

Phew! Long post is long. :p

I hope you'll keep posting and let us know how it goes, the good and the bad. Again, I know you feel like you've gotten a poor reception here, but none of us are so petty that we'd waste all these words if we weren't genuinely trying to help. For myself at least, I can promise that I'll keep an open mind, try to help you with the hard stuff and celebrate your successes with you. You can always post in big letters at the top of a potential blog "we will not discuss the feasibility of the premise of unicorn hunting" if you're worried that any attempt to talk about how things are going wil just get derailed by this hot topic.

[Times2]

Thank you for that post and the links Annabel. It makes us feel less 'controversial'. :)

According to statistics, there are about 15,000 plural marriages within some religious communities. I am sure not all of them are successful and some may not have been entered into freely. However, there are probably many many plural marriages within religious communities that are not the typical plural marriage we all hear about on the television but more hidden and quiet in suburbia and on country roads that could be successful loving and caring relationships. One can only venture a guess at how many 'non-religious' plural marriages there may be. It is possible that you don't hear about the successful relationships that have turned into plural marriages because of the risk of prosecution.

I don't think we will immediately know that this person will be the spouse of we are looking for, but hopefully, we will find someone whom we think could fill that position and take lots of time to get to know her and see what happens. That is afterall how any love affair begins. D is my 3rd husband, so I know what failed relationships feel like. Unfortunately, there are no guarentees in any relationship, traditional or otherwise. All we can do is put ourselves out there, be honest about what we are looking for and hope for the best. :D

[dragonflysky]

I was "invited" to step into a previously existing poly-couple relationship, where he was heterosexual, she was bi-sexual and I was heterosexual. So, basically it was a "vee", when I stepped in.......although it was "open" such that any and all parties would be free to establish other relationships. (I wasn't particularly interested in establishing other relationships, so I probably could have fit into a relationship similar to what you're discussing. I wouldn't have been a unicorn, however, but your "sister-wife".)

I found it extremely challenging to find my way into "their" relationship. They had a few years together and had worked through many of their relationship issues. Although they didn't intend it to happen, I ended up being the one to do most of the fitting in and adjusting because they had a life worked out together that worked well for them. Also, she had an 8 year old son from a prior marriage that they were raising, so we all had to adapt/adjust/accommodate to his needs, too. For example, attending his swim meets, need for childcare, need to be transported to and from.......,etc.

They would make decisions that could ultimately affect me (for example, committing to certain events/activities that would mean less time for me to spend with them/him.) and never think to consult me because they just in all honesty weren't used to having to think about the impact on an additional person. When I'd bring it to their attention, I'd often be seen as being "jealous" of her or her son or ??????

Ultimately when he got so stressed with his job and other time commitments, I got left out. He decided he wanted our relationship to be "fun" and "casual" (which equated with "secondary" in my book, and I had NEVER wanted to be a secondary and had said so from the start.) I decided not to settle and broke the relationship off. It was a profound loss for me. Not just the loss of him, but of my friendship with her and with their friends and family.

I'll give you a lot of credit for being upfront and clear about what you want with someone. But, as others have mentioned, there are many pitfalls for someone stepping into an well established relationship in spite of your best intentions. I, for one, would also feel very "used" or insulted to think that one of my values in a relationship was to help provide a buffer to the feelings of loss anticipated if one of the original partners "who were so in love, so committed to each other that they couldn't imagine going on without the other one"...died. Many two person monogamous couples love each other to this degree.....and they just have to deal with it. Afterall, no one can ever replace another, or totally understand what someone else is going through regardless of how close and intimate you are.

[Times2]

Thank you dragonfly, for your perspective. We can see the concern about being the 'third wheel' and being left out of the decision making process and feeling like a 'buffer'. All anyone can do when entering into any relationship, being poly or otherwise, is work at every dynamic to make it work. We don't believe any relationship worth having doesn't require some give and take and none of it is gonna just be second nature I am sure. But we feel that for a number of different reasons, this is a good step for us. We hope that there will be someone out there who feels it's a good step for them as well and just see what happens. If it all turns out great then we would take the next step in the committment that would make us a plural marriage. If any one of us should find it is too difficult, too restricting, too demanding, too alienating, or just too uncomfortable, then we would never take that final step and would have to reconsider the relationship.

I think that men and women go into relationships with a completely opposite mind set from one another. Women approach a new relationship with the "he might be the one" mentality whereas a man approaches most romantic involvements with the "she'll do find unti I find the one" mentality. With these different expectations who do you think will get hurt when it ends? Of course the one thinking it's THE ONE from the start. We have no expectations that the first person we meet will be 'the one' and we have no illusions that it will all be perfect from the beginning. We expect to meet, hopefully feel a connection and then ultimately move on with a marital relationship. If we don't feel it, or she does not feel it then it will never go any further. Isn't that how all relationships start?

We appreciate your perspective and once we are involved with this person, will have to make a concerted effort to include just as much input from this other person in our lives. As far as the romantic aspect of the relationship, we would love her as much as we love each other, no matter how long we have been together, otherwise, we wouldn't be doing this at all. We will also make the effort to help this person not feel like a 3rd wheel in a long standing marriage but be an integral part of a working, equal partnership.

I am sorry it all didn't work out for you. It seems your partners should have made more of an effort to accomodate you and offered you the same equality within the relationship they themselves enjoyed. It takes work, sacrifice, honesty and above all, love.

[Magdlyn]

I think that men and women go into relationships with a completely opposite mind set from one another. Women approach a new relationship with the "he might be the one" mentality whereas a man approaches most romantic involvements with the "she'll do find until I find the one" mentality.

Seriously? That is a pretty sexist remark to make on a poly board, where we have lots of free women not looking for the One, be they male or female. We also have lesbians, gays and transpeople here. Where would they fit in with your sweeping comment?

Most women and men here aren't even looking for The One, but the many! lol

[Jade]

Hehehe. When I was young, I thought, "He might be the one." Now I think, "He may be workable."

[dragonflysky]

I think that men and women go into relationships with a completely opposite mind set from one another. Women approach a new relationship with the "he might be the one" mentality whereas a man approaches most romantic involvements with the "she'll do find unti I find the one" mentality. With these different expectations who do you think will get hurt when it ends? Of course the one thinking it's THE ONE from the start. We have no expectations that the first person we meet will be 'the one' and we have no illusions that it will all be perfect from the beginning. We expect to meet, hopefully feel a connection and then ultimately move on with a marital relationship. If we don't feel it, or she does not feel it then it will never go any further. Isn't that how all relationships start?...

I can't speak for how other men and women go into relationships, but he and I had talked about what all 3 of us wanted in a relationship. We were all looking for a loving long term relationship with a core poly-family. (They had already attempted this with other people prior to my coming into their lives. I was new to the whole idea of poly.) Any or all members of the core poly family would still be free to see whomever they wanted outside of this core poly-family. They might or might not share partners within the core poly-family. No one within the core poly family would be expected to have relationships with other poly family members, but there would be an expectation of mutual courtesy. Any other partners wouldn't necessarily be expected to become part of the "family", but neither would they be automatically excluded. If someone wanted to remain in a mono relationship with someone in the core poly-family, that would be fine, too. There would be no expectation that all core poly family members would have to date or be in a relationship with more than one person.

There was no issue for him about "until I find the one". As others have mentioned....Being poly....there could be several "ones"!!

(Please note that my vocabulary/choice of terms when trying to describe what we wanted is mine, alone. "Core poly-family" is the best term I could come up with in trying to define what we were looking for. It may have a totally different meaning to someone else or be meaningless to others.)

[AnnabelMore]

Alright, alright, I'll bite on the side topic. :)

I've never been in the least commitment minded. I feel more committed to my relationship with my gf than I ever have in any other relationship before, despite the fact that she and I haven't made any sort of formal declarations or anything. I've been in a couple of other long-term-ish things with guys in the past in which *they* were very interested in long-term commitment but I was not. Rather, I tend to enter my relationships solely based on my enjoyment of the other person with no expectations for the future.

Right now, my bf is the one who wants to look at moving in together, maybe getting married and having kids at some point... whereas I'm like "Can't we just relax and see where this goes?"

So, yeah, maybe we're all just a little too queer here or a little too non-traditional or whatever, but the idea that women want X and men want Y has had no relevance or truth whatsoever in my life. Perhaps it's true on a wider societal level, but I tend to suspect that if it is it's still far less prevalent than the dominant cultural narratives would have us believe.