The pace of the one who is struggling most

[AnotherConfused]

I've often read this wise little piece of advice on this forum, to go at the pace of the one who is struggling the most. What it usually seems to apply to is when someone gets a new partner, and an existing partner is new to polyamory or otherwise unhappy with the situation, so the new relationship slows down until the existing partner works through those feelings. I get that.

I've been trying to go at my (monogamous) husband's pace for the past couple of years now, by keeping relationships with the other two men I love at a pretty platonic level, where we don't see each other much and we keep our clothes on. I guess in all this time my husband has been coming to terms with the fact that I love them, but he has no intention of letting it move forward. We don't talk about it (or when I bring it up, he tries not to talk about it), he's unwilling to read about polyamory, and he's basically just trying to accept this "flaw" in my role as his wife by not thinking about it.

Meanwhile, I'm really starting to struggle. It's not just a sexual urge, although that can get pretty strong at times. I feel like my life needs these relationships. My husband is very reserved, and I feel starved for connection and intimacy of all kinds (as I've written about in my last thread). I try and try to draw him out, but after years of this I feel like I'm vainly trying to make him into someone he's not. He makes a good husband in all sorts of ways, and he's my children's father, so I don't want to leave the marriage, but the marriage is not providing me with what I need.

Is it ever the case that the person who is struggling the most is the one who wants to move the newer relationship(s) forward? How can I tell if doing so would hurt him as much as I hurt now, if he is unwilling to talk about it? I've told him how lonely I feel, and his response is that I shouldn't feel that way. My emotion is not logical to him. I cry and cry, and he has nothing to say to me. Is it reasonable to ask him to go at my pace for once? That doesn't even have to involve sex at this point, but just the freedom to make these men a bigger part of my life, so I can enjoy some relationships that are close, communicative, interactive, enriching.

He has said I should do what I want, but that he won't like it, and I should weigh the pleasure I would get (from a kiss or sex or whatever) against the pain it would cause him. It's not about the physical pleasure of the kiss for me though. It's the pain of denying myself the kind of deep relationships I sorely want, and have been trying in vain to have with him for such a long time.

[redpepper]

"Going at the pace of the one who is struggling the most" is never meant to be a life time thing. Its meant to be at certain times throughout a relationship and implies that the person struggling is given the time they need to actually working on the issues that have come up and moving forward. Your husband is not doing that. At some point its time to push. He is in denial and you are helping him be there as far as I can see. Its not okay to do things his way, he is going to have to face up to his fear at some point because its never okay to jeopardize your mental health for another for a long period of time.

What is it that you are not getting from your other partners? Sex? If you are with them and not having sex is there no room for closeness within that? Are you sure its lack of sex that is creating this feeling inside of you of not being fulfilled? I'm not trying to suggest otherwise here, I am just trying to see what kind of dynamic you have created with them.

Its important to note I think the YOU have chosen this, not your husband. He has no clout when it comes to what you do and what you think of what you do. Its your choice to be where you are now and while you have been wonderful at considering his needs, you have considered them at your detriment. Saying to him that you love him and that you always will but you are an independent woman that makes her own choices is not grounds for him to tell you that you are not a good wife. Its might be his opinion, but you don't have to accept that. Nor should you I don't think. He has made his choice, its time to make yours.

If I were in your situation and felt as you do (this is hitting very close to home I might add), I think I would get about planning to become closer to the other men in your life and ask your husband what he will need to be able to walk through his fear and possible jealousy as a result. I think I would inform him that his negative talk about you will not be tolerated and that you will listen but carry on anyway regardless of his opinion. What he says is not what you believe and tell him why. I think I would be informing him of a good therapist to go to (poly friendly), of some good literature to read, or on-line sites and then let him know that you intend to take one step at a time that will eventually lead to sex with these men. All the while reminding him that you love him and all the while showing him that by spending time with him and being the fantastic mother and wife you have always been. Then I would take a baby step and see what happens.

[AnotherConfused]

Thanks Redpepper. I realize I am responsible for my choices, but I think I can't quite reconcile going after what I want when it means hurting someone I love. He wrote this to me today:

"The pattern has always been you make up your mind about what you want and you wiIl keep pushing till you get the concessions that you want. Nothing I do really is material. I see a very slippery slope and the progression (past present and future) is at least to me, very obvious."

It seems to me that he doesn't consider my desire for other relationships to be a valid one, so where I think I am being open about my needs and trying to find ways that work (for both of us) for me to get them met, he sees a pattern of manipulation where I keep railroading over his wishes. He doesn't have any intention of changing how he feels about polyamory, so my little baby steps are to him just going further and further beyond his comfort level, which is static.

I don't need sex with my other loves. I would enjoy having sex with someone who expressed such enthusiastic desire for me, and maybe matched my sexual temperament a little better, so it would be wonderful to add to my life, but I could conceivably be happy without. I do like to kiss and cuddle though. And what I most want is time to be with each of them. They both live out of town, and my husband is adamantly horrified at the thought of overnight visits -even without sex. The impropriety of it disgusts him. I almost think he'd rather I have discreet extramarital sex during the day than spend the night in separate bed in a house alone with a man. To me I feel as if he cares more about what other people think of us than how happy either of us feels.

We are planning a big talk tonight. I wish I could get him to read these things.

[nycindie]

I think "going at the pace of the one who is struggling the most" is a noble thing to do when a couple has first agreed to embark on a polyamorous arrangement, and it's meant to be a stage until the uncomfortable party is more comfortable.

HOWEVER, it is important to note that your husband has made it very clear he will never be comfortable with it. He is not willing to engage in a poly dynamic, does not want it, hates to discuss it, and has not agreed to it. So, I don't think "going at the pace ..." really applies here.

BUT I'm a bit confused. You're saying here that your husband is not willing to move forward; however, in your other thread, you said that he told you he just didn't want to know about it.

In that thread, you said that one day, after being very clear for several years that he would not stand for you to have sex with anyone else, he announced that you could go and have sex with the other men in your life. He told you that he would be hurt and unhappy about it and possibly leave you once the children are grown, but that he knows it is your choice, so he wants a DADT policy. Talking any further about it is very painful for him.

You then stated that if he was giving in out of resignation, instead of wanting you to be happy, you couldn't do it. You don't want to hurt him, but you feel like if it isn't all out in the open and with his blessing that it's not going to be satisfying to you in some way. I think you overlooked one very important thing: his request that you be discreet if you choose to develop more of a relationship with these men is his way of meeting you in the middle. This is the compromise he's proposed. He has given what he can live with, because he knows you want this. This is as generous as he can be on the matter. And it is generous!

He has arrived at an option that won't conflict with his beliefs and sense of security in the marriage. But you don't want to accept it. You want poly on your terms only, and are choosing to see him as not wanting to move forward. Can you see how that is a bit selfish on your part? Never mind if other polyfolk frown upon DADT policies. This is the best he can give you right now. I am certain he has gone very far beyond his comfort zone in offering that option to you.

This may seem like an unusual situation to most poly people, but remember, we're all about people discovering and creating the kind of relationships that work for them. So, in that spirit, my response might seem controversial, but if I were you, and I was as lonely and starved for connection and intimacy as you say you are, I'd accept his offer. And in return, with the utmost of gratitude, I would make sure he never knows a thing about it. I would do everything I could to preserve his "blind spot" toward your love life with other men. Realize that that is how you would be honoring his wishes. He doesn't want to know!!! You cannot change him into someone he is not - not overnight, anyway. He may come around years from now, but until then, this is what you've got to work with, honey.

So, the way I see it, his proposal to do what you want as long as he is never privy to it is his gift to you and, if I were you, I'd seriously consider accepting it. Why keep on torturing him by bringing it up and insisting he know and approve?!

[BrigidsDaughter]

The problem as I see it Nycindie, is that he will have to know because she wants to be able to visit these men out of town. Becauit will because they have kids and he has expectations of what a "good mother" does, I suspect that any arrangements that she makes to go visit her male friends will have to be run by him.

[AnotherConfused]

It's sorely tempting, but he never really offered up DADT as a proposed solution. It was said more in exasperation, like "Fine, be that way!" and pretty much taken back when he calmed down. He tends to be a bit of a martyr at times -for example, fixing a meal for the kids and only eating the leftovers from their plates. If I went ahead with this, I think he would always have that over me -that I betrayed him for my own selfish desires, and he tolerated it out of his amazing sense of loyalty and commitment.

There has been no meeting in the middle. There is only his way (the right/normal/decent way) and my way (the selfish/immoral/homewrecking way) and my freedom to make the choice between them. He has never been willing to look beyond that point of view.

I'm trying to decide between marriage counselors I found on a poly-friendly list. I don't think he's ever heard it from anyone but me that it's possible for married people to love others besides their spouses.

[AnotherConfused]

The problem as I see it Nycindie, is that he will have to know because she wants to be able to visit these men out of town. Becauit will because they have kids and he has expectations of what a "good mother" does, I suspect that any arrangements that she makes to go visit her male friends will have to be run by him.

The distance issue does more to inhibit the amount of time I get with them than the way we spend it. I drove 2 hrs each way to see one of them not long ago, with my husband's blessing, and that was the furthest I've pushed for that relationship. The other one lives 5 hrs away so I am totally dependent on his passing through town (which he did today, and we got a whopping hour to spend together). Either way, it always feel like the clock is ticking and goodbye comes too soon.

[nycindie]

Well, the other thing I was going to say is that you are so unhappy now. If you somehow are able to have more of a relationship with these guys, whether as a clandestine affair, or with your husband's knowledge, and he does leave you after the children are grown, would that really be worse than what you have now?

And really, I think if he did say you could go for it as long as he doesn't know, even if it was in a moment of anger, that was a compromise.

[AnotherConfused]

Well, the other thing I was going to say is that you are so unhappy now. If you somehow are able to have more of a relationship with these guys, whether as a clandestine affair, or with your husband's knowledge, and he does leave you after the children are grown, would that really be worse than what you have now?

And really, I think if he did say you could go for it as long as he doesn't know, even if it was in a moment of anger, that was a compromise.

I think I am fast approaching that point where it's worth risking the marriage. First I want to try marriage counseling and hopefully a little more mutual effort into fixing what is lacking between us. There is another complicating factor, which is that I have been ill for over 6 months now, much of it in bed, which has simultaneously reduced the amount of energy either of has to put into our relationship, and increased my need for emotional support. (I used to get a lot of satisfaction from 2-3 nights a week of dancing, and now I'm pretty much dependent on people visiting as my sole social life.) I don't want to make any drastic changes while I am still sick.

[redpepper]

I think you are right AC. You are fast approaching a point where you will likely just have to decide between poly and your husband. You can't change him and make him do something he doesn't want to do. You can't make him do the work, but you can decide what you will do and see what happens.

I suggest you get some things in order first; place to stay, some money, some written agreements if you can on details about the kids maybe... If it hits the fan and he kicks you out you will need these things to be in order... then see what happens if you tell him you are moving forward with your men and that you will be discreet but it has to be this way for you because you are miserable and can't live the way you are any more.

[AnotherConfused]

Well, at 2am we've decided to stop talking for the night. We've gone around and around and around. We seem to keep coming back to the same things: I have a need for more love, and deeper relationships, than I am getting. He feels like he gives me way more than most people get, and I should be satisfied. By more, he means hard work and commitment, not affection and passion.

Now he doesn't even want to try counseling. He read this thread and was aghast that I had shared so much private information publicly. (Everyone has figured out which married couple in which city in which country in the world we are by now, right?) He still sees polyamory as immoral, abnormal, and a choice. (I'm feeling for gay people tonight.) He thinks I am going to cause our marriage to end, because of my inevitable decision to have sex with other men. I pointed out that if I did have sex with someone else, it would be his choice to end the marriage over it or not. I would want to stay married.

Now we seem stuck in a competitive mindset, and it keeps coming back to who is suffering more, and who is getting their way, and who is compromising. In his view, he has done all the compromising and sacrificing, and I have gotten my way and will continue to get my way. He is absolutely unwilling to believe that I have yielded to his feelings at all. Giving in to the "impulse" of loving others has been a heartless choice I made with complete disregard for his feelings, and a sane person would not find herself in this situation.

I know we have both suffered. It hurts him that I am not conforming to his view of a wife. He thought I was monogamous when we married -and so did I. So he feels betrayed, and I understand. This is why I am not sexually involved with anyone else. I'm trying to look out for his feelings. But oh man, I'm tired of the implication that my own feelings are selfish and immoral! It's love we're talking about!

Now he's talking about some sort of credit system where I have to log a certain number of hours of leisure time with him in order to "earn" time with the other men. Something tells me that's not going to feel so good. "Honey, will you come spend two more hours watching a movie with me so I can finish earning my time with L before the weekend? Or wait, if we make it a double feature I can stay through dinner." Ha.

This all just sucks. :(

[bassman]

oh honey, I dont have any advice , but lots of hugs from me. Feeling for both of you....

[Magdlyn]

The biggest red flag I see here is your h's feeling that it's more important what others think of you two than what he and you think of you two. I see this in conservative Christian circles where giving the impression you are a good Christian is as important as how you practice your faith for yourself. Too often it devolves into the appearance to others being MORE important than the reality in oneself or one's relationship to God.

Is this a message you want to present and inculcate in your children??? This "propriety" masking unhappiness and shame and lack of real connection?

You're dying inside from lack of affection and desire from your husband. Of COURSE you're attracted to your two other lovers, since they desire the real you, don't find you immoral or sick, accept you fully.

You married and made certain promises, but you've changed, or discovered and unearthed more about your authentic self as you matured. So, your choice is, do you give in to your h and stagnate and live a life of quiet desperation and unhappiness, or take the leap and live the life your true self wants and needs? Your h wants an old-fashioned wife, the "little woman," figuratively barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. Making no demands, feeling her h has the final say.

fuck that shit

[Magdlyn]

There has been no meeting in the middle. There is only his way (the right/normal/decent way) and my way (the selfish/immoral/homewrecking way) and my freedom to make the choice between them. He has never been willing to look beyond that point of view.

And you seem to have internalized his view of you. You are the selfish immoral one and he is the saintly matryr, eating his kids' leftovers. Bleh.

You're NOT sick! You're beautiful, lusty, wholesome and human! Just because you're different than him doesn't automatically make him good and you bad.

Gah, your situation is triggering for me because I spent over 30 years with a guy who got jealous if I so much as looked at another man, or wanted to go see a new movie because one of my favorite actors was in it, or engaged in more than a 5 minute conversation with another man. Plus, I am bi, and he was always confused, threatened, and a bit disgusted by that as well.

I'm trying to decide between marriage counselors I found on a poly-friendly list. I don't think he's ever heard it from anyone but me that it's possible for married people to love others besides their spouses.

Your husband really isn't meeting your needs, your deepest needs for intimacy. Sure, he's a good provider, a good dad in some ways (except for the messages he gives to the boys about "propriety" as I mentioned above, as well as this martyrdom bs), but what about YOU? Don't YOU matter? Be your own primary, live the life that is calling to you.

[bassman]

The biggest red flag I see here is your h's feeling that it's more important what others think of you two than what he and you think of you two. I see this in conservative Christian circles where giving the impression you are a good Christian is as important as how you practice your faith for yourself. Too often it devolves into the appearance to others being MORE important than the reality in oneself or one's relationship to God.



fuck that shit

I love you for this post, Magdlyn - it sums up my wife and the church exactly.

[redpepper]

Ahhh, I hope you got some sleep in the end. Both of you.

It seems that traditional values and mainstream mentality are all he is willing to accept. Its not a competition, where's the compassion? Have you told him you understand he feels betrayed that you have discovered you aren't monogamous but that this is where you are now and there is no turning back? Maybe starting compassionate talk will get you both a better foot hold on what to do next.

[nycindie]

Now he's talking about some sort of credit system where I have to log a certain number of hours of leisure time with him in order to "earn" time with the other men. Something tells me that's not going to feel so good. "Honey, will you come spend two more hours watching a movie with me so I can finish earning my time with L before the weekend? Or wait, if we make it a double feature I can stay through dinner." Ha.

I just want to comment on this point before anything else. I have to tell you that this isn't completely unheard of in poly. I dated a married poly guy who had an agreement with his wife (she had another steady partner and he was dating here and there) that whatever time they spend with others they must double with each other. Personally, I couldn't see how that works, but it didn't affect me so I didn't ask anymore about it. I know that they were fairly new to poly (less than a year) and had met early on with another couple whom they view as mentors of sorts, so I have a feeling they got that idea from those people. This is just to say it's not a totally foreign concept.

[AnotherConfused]

I just want to comment on this point before anything else. I have to tell you that this isn't completely unheard of in poly. I dated a married poly guy who had an agreement with his wife (she had another steady partner and he was dating here and there) that whatever time they spend with others they must double with each other. Personally, I couldn't see how that works, but it didn't affect me so I didn't ask anymore about it. I know that they were fairly new to poly (less than a year) and had met early on with another couple whom they view as mentors of sorts, so I have a feeling they got that idea from those people. This is just to say it's not a totally foreign concept.

While that may work for some, I told my husband this morning that I really don't want to set things up so that time I spend with him is a chore and time I spend with others is a reward. I'd rather he just let me know when he wants more time with me. As it is, I am home almost 24/7 and he rarely gives me the time of day.

So instead, I am keeping a detailed log for him of everything I am doing for the children and the household. He thinks it's a good idea. Maybe it is -I suspect he doesn't have a clue what I do, because he keeps telling me I need to be a better mother and do such and such, and everything he mentions is something I already do.

So in my husband's defense, I have to put out there that he is not a jealous man; before I was well he stayed home with the kids 3 nights a week so I could go dancing; he did not object to my attending a 3 day dance camp with one of these men (providing we did not "register as a couple")... he's not really a controlling person. But he is definitely stuck hard in his conviction that what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong, and I'm trying to force him into accepting something that is wrong.

So yeah, of course I feel more drawn to the men who accept me. I'm working hard at trying to accept myself. My self esteem is shot after 6 months of debilitating illness, but deep down I am happy to be someone who loves, and forms deep connections, and has a vigorous sex drive, and I don't feel like that is wrong. I also strongly believe that I am an amazing mom -two natural childbirths (no value judgments here -I'm just saying), 6 total years breastfeeding, I've managed to get a master's degree in education and created a growing successful business with several employees, all without our daughters ever spending a moment in day care. I had both our kids reading with enthusiasm at first or second grade level before they started kindergarten. I feed them organic gluten free vegetarian meals, volunteer in their classrooms, nurture their passions, and read to them every night. I don't think there's anyone who knows me who would argue that I am not an awesome mom -except my husband.

I don't want to end my marriage. I want to be appreciated and loved, first and foremost by my husband.

[AnotherConfused]

Ahhh, I hope you got some sleep in the end. Both of you.

It seems that traditional values and mainstream mentality are all he is willing to accept. Its not a competition, where's the compassion? Have you told him you understand he feels betrayed that you have discovered you aren't monogamous but that this is where you are now and there is no turning back? Maybe starting compassionate talk will get you both a better foot hold on what to do next.

I have told him this, yes. He thinks it is a choice. He thinks all people feel transient moments of attraction, say, to a stranger at the bus stop or whatever, and the only difference between me and a "normal" person is that I have followed these impulses and allowed relationships to develop. So my "this is who I am now" he reads as "I'm going to keep making immoral choices."

I don't know how to break out of this competition mindset. Compassion has disappeared. I'm so desperate for his love and approval, I feel like I need to keep trying to prove that I'm a good person, and it comes out negative. He continues to play the martyr, the ill used husband doggedly working for his family in spite of his wife's immoral behavior. I'm starting to think we need to start all over: be roommates for now, and see if we can't woo each other back into love. I'm also half afraid he wouldn't want to try. As near as I can tell, he is married to me because he doesn't want a broken family.

I don't know how it got to be this bad. Once upon a time we were so close.

[AnotherConfused]

Frying pan to fire. I don't think my husband has loved me much for years. I think he has loved his image of a wife, and he's upset that I don't fit it now. We can't seem to talk about this without bitterness. He has such a negative image of me, and seems to think he is beyond all reproach. And yet, here I am unhappy, unloved.

We are no longer sharing a bed. I told him I don't sleep with just anyone, and I'm not comfortable sleeping with him when I don't feel his love.

Hurting hurting hurting hurting...

[opalescent]

AC,

I'm so sorry. Hugs to you, and to your husband.

My exwife and I broke up recently partly because she believed that I did not have an accurate view of her or our relationship. I didn't agree but there was enough hint of a truth there to be uncomfortable.

At any rate, have you told him just what you wrote above? (I realize you may be desperately trying to tell him just that and he can't listen right now.)

[Magdlyn]

You deserve better, hon. HUGS

[SchrodingersCat]

I realize I'm coming in at the 11th hour and may not have all the facts, so I apologize if I'm missing some points.

I'm a firm believer that for polyamory to be successful, you need a solid base to work from. It saddens me when people turn to polyamory because they aren't getting what they want at home.

It sounds like you'd really like your relationship with your husband to be more emotionally fulfilling.

It also sounds like he isn't willing to change.

I feel sad when people stay together "for the kids." Kids aren't stupid. Take it from a grown child of parents who didn't sleep together... They'll have already noticed. It's not normal for married people to suddenly start sleeping alone in different beds, but kids assume that what their parents do is normal because it's all they know. It's worth considering what effect that can have on their development.

Your kids love Mommy and Daddy as people, not the idea of Wife-mommy and Husband-daddy. Of course they'll be sad if their parents get a divorce, but they'll get over it much faster than they'll get over 18 years of watching parents in a loveless marriage. I remember being 13 and my parents were fighting, and I was so upset I finally screamed at them: "Why don't you just get a divorce already!?!" That's when it dawned on them how much pain their relationship dynamics were causing me. They had already been sleeping on separate floors for a good 4 years by that point. My mom literally began the separation process right then and there. I was sad, but I knew even then that it was for the best.

Your husband needs to know that if he can't meet your emotional needs, then you need to leave the relationship to protect yourself and your kids.

Because hon, if your husband doesn't meet your emotional needs and isn't willing to change, then you need to leave the relationship to protect yourself and your kids. If it was just you, it would be your choice whether or not you wait it out and suffer, but when there's children involved, you need to consider the lessons they're learning.

I don't think your marriage is beyond hope, but it definitely will take a lot of work for things to improve. That won't happen overnight.

Would it be possible to make an agreement with your husband, that if you put the other guys on hold for one month, he'll come to counselling with you twice a week for that month?

That would show that you're willing to put a hold on your "immoral impulses" in order to save the marriage. Then at least, if he still refuses or if the counselling doesn't help, you can leave feeling that you did everything you could to save the marriage.

Right now, his context is "if you don't go for counselling, I'll just love these other guys instead." That's making him grumpy and upset, and frankly it should. I was born poly, and if someone told me that I wasn't good enough so they're going somewhere else but keeping me in the wings, I would say fine go, but don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Be prepared that fixing the marriage may require a two-way sacrifice: he will never want to get counselling while you're threatening to get love elsewhere. You may need to end the other relationships while you both work on the marriage. You may need to accept that he will never agree to a polyamorous lifestyle, and then you'll need to choose between polyamory or your marriage. Because the way it's been going, you can't have both. But don't say that he's leaving the marriage because he can't handle you loving other guys. Monogamy is what he signed up for. Accusing him of quitting the tournament because you suddenly changed the game isn't fair. Accept the responsibility that you need to leave the marriage if it can't fulfill your needs.

[Times2]

I know I am new to this community but I read this entire thread and I feel the need to reply on the children's behalf. I never saw where you mentioned the age of the children but it seems you may have not considered the emotional impact placed upon them for your decisions.

If you decide to see these other men in secrecy, and should it ever come to light, how are your kids gonna react, how will they think of you since obviously your husband has made it very clear that he will be hurt. Are you willing to be the cheater, the wicked witch who destroyed their father? Children may understand after they are adults, but lets be honest here, polyamory is a rare, alternative lifestyle not just anyone can understand, let alone children raised by one poly and one mono. He is their father. How much of his beliefs have been instilled in the kids?

If you get his blessing eventually, and you have visits with the other men, how will the kids respond? What will they think of you then? Remember, your husband fathered these children and I am assuming takes part in the raising of them and therefore may have either picked up on directly or indirectly the mindset of your husband on certain issues, this being one of them. Again, are you willing to be 'less than' in your children's eyes?

I only bring this up because it sounds like your husband is so adamant about this not happening for you and people not finding out that there is no way you wouldn't become the bad guy should the marriage end. If he weren't so against it, then maybe a period of conditioning for the kids would be possible so that the detrimental trauma to the kids wouldn't happen.

My children are grown and they are very aware that their mom is a open-minded and free spirit. Though I have not spoken to them directly about this poly decision my husband and I have made, I do not think they would have a big issue with it because of how I and my husband together have raised them. His children were not raised by us so they might have more difficulty accepting it than mine so before we just surprise them with a second mommy or daddy, we would have to have deep meaningful conversations to avoid any undue animosity or stress to them.

I wish you all the luck in the world. I am saddened that you feel so miserable in your marriage and you shouldn't have to feel that way. However, the marriage is a secondary category for the family unit, of which you are only 1 member. Maybe more thought and a deeper, larger conversation should be had about the responses and feelings of all the other members.

Good luck.

[redpepper]

Ahhhh, I'm sorry you're hurting :( from the other thread you wrote awhile back to this one (did I miss one?) I think you're right; he likes his idea of a wife and you aren't fitting it. He doesn't like the idea of you. Other will though, there is nothing wrong with you.

[AnotherConfused]

I'm happy to report that we had a very positive talk last night, bringing us both to points of much better understanding and compassion, and a kind of resolution, while recognizing of course that things could change over time.

One thing we made sure to include when we wrote our wedding vows, was that we would cherish not only the people we were on our wedding day, but also who we would become, because we knew we would continue to grow and change in our lives and we knew it would hurt our relationship if either one of us expected the other to always stay the same. I know it has been a "game changer" for me to realize my polyamorous tendencies, but loving others is part of who I am. What I do about it is a choice, but I have felt judged for the feelings I have in spite of the consistent fact that I have not had sex with them, and I have continued to reiterate that I will not have sex with them if he doesn't feel ok about it. After a couple of years of this, I've been trying to uncover where the "not ok" feelings come from, and we actually made some headway on the subject for the first time last night.

SchrodingersCat, I agree that it is unhelpful to try to fix a relationship by adding more relationships. For years I've been telling him that while I love the attention I get from other men, what I want most is to get it from him. We've talked about it over and over, and sometimes he'll make funny contrived attempts to flirt, but nothing sticks. Last night I suddenly remembered how awkward I felt the first time his mother came to visit, and she would never say "good morning" or greet me when I entered a room. Then he explained that people don't really do that in India, where he grew up. I guess he acted a little more effusive when we were first together, but shifted back to his cultural status quo, and only as of last night became aware that my feelings are hurt when he wakes up each morning and leaves the bedroom without speaking to me, or comes home from work and goes right off to walk the dog without checking in with me for a minute or two. What a difference today, when he kissed me awake!

So yes, I know it's important to fix our relationship first, but beyond that I have a need for more intimacy (especially emotional intimacy) in my life, and I have feelings for the other two men, and those feelings don't go away when I have marital trouble, but those relationships do tend to start feeling awfully good in contrast. If I feel more affection, sex, warmth, etc. at home I won't feel as starved for it, and it will become easier to keep the limits on these other relationships. Just as it is easier to pass up junk food when your tummy is full of dinner than when you are hungry.

As for the kids (age 5 and 9), they have always known that Mommy is the social one, who has all the friends and invites them into our lives, does all the emails and manages the social calendar, and Daddy is the quiet one who likes to cook for big parties and enjoys it when people come over, but doesn't seek out friendships on his own. They know one of my loves as a man who has always been part of our lives, who comes visiting sometimes and is a lot of fun, who has a really fun house to go visit, whose teen and grown kids are also our friends... and because my husband is comfortable around him, I don't see that there is any negative effect at all. As for the other love, it's a newer relationship but they have spent time with him now and then and they like him. I don't see any reason why they would be bothered by either of these, just as they aren't bothered by the other friends I spend time with. They don't know about sex so it would not occur to them to wonder whether that is going on or not. There is no sneaking around, and I'm not kissing anyone in public.

Naturally they are effected by the dynamic between their parents. I don't think my husband had really considered the lack of demonstrated affection as a problem. I asked who his role models for marriage were, and he mentioned his parents. Their relationship included ongoing physical and verbal abuse, but it was a "successful" marriage because they raised a doctor, a lawyer and an engineer and stayed married until death parted them. But now I think he's starting to understand that for me, love and happiness are priorities right up there with making sure the kids have every educational opportunity. As of last night I think more warmth is going to show.

As of last night, I have come to a much better understanding of what he means when he loves me. It hurts that it is not the emotion that I associate with love (for instance, he doesn't think he'd feel heartbreak if I left him) but it's ok. It's his brand of love. Within that I think we can find happiness. We talked about how there are things about us that align (political views, values) and things that complement each other (my extroversion, his introversion) and he mentioned a friend who enjoys his mind for they way the two of them think similarly, in an area where he and I don't. Both are good -complementing, or matching. I mentioned that some aspects of my personality that contrast with his, are very similar to the personalities of the other two men, so for me they add another element to my life. The passionate romantic in me likes to discuss life with passionate romantic people, but I can appreciate that our relationship benefits from the fact that his emotions aren't as all consuming as mine can get. I think he accepted that.

The upshot: I feel less judged now and more loved. He's ok with me spending time with these guys, as long as I'm giving enough time to my family first. He's ok with me kissing them, as long as it's not in our home and as long as no one sees. He's not ok with me having sex or any other STD-risky activity. He's leaving the gray area in between up to me, with discretion and keeping it out of our home of utmost importance. I am very happy with this. It's not terribly different from what we had before, but this time I feel like I understand him much better, and he understands me. And wow, I love him for it.

[SchrodingersCat]

That's great news!

It's good to hear that he's finally willing to listen your feelings and acknowledge your needs. Of course, this is just the beginning of change, and you'll probably have to remind him often and specifically about how you need to be treated, but if he's finally open to the idea then there's at least a chance he can change.

I'm not the least bit surprised to hear that his definition of "successful marriage" is raising financially successful kids. I go to school with a lot of people from asian cultures, and a lot of the younger generation struggles with that. Their parents want them to be doctors and lawyers, but they want to be dancers and scientists. It's a huge bone of contention, and many of the parents never give their stamp of approval.

I can't even begin to imagine growing up like that. I was so blessed to have parents who loved me no matter what and never cared about what job I had, as long as I was happy. I think that's the greatest gift a parent can give their child: unconditional support and love. Part of why my mom was so adamant about it was that she wanted to be a forest ranger, but her guidance counsellor told her women have to be nurses or teachers. She didn't want to spend her life cleaning out bedpans, so she chose teacher. She hated every minute of it, and didn't want me to suffer the way she had.

[AnotherConfused]

That's great news!

I'm not the least bit surprised to hear that his definition of "successful marriage" is raising financially successful kids. I go to school with a lot of people from asian cultures, and a lot of the younger generation struggles with that. Their parents want them to be doctors and lawyers, but they want to be dancers and scientists. It's a huge bone of contention, and many of the parents never give their stamp of approval.

I can't even begin to imagine growing up like that. I was so blessed to have parents who loved me no matter what and never cared about what job I had, as long as I was happy. I think that's the greatest gift a parent can give their child: unconditional support and love. Part of why my mom was so adamant about it was that she wanted to be a forest ranger, but her guidance counsellor told her women have to be nurses or teachers. She didn't want to spend her life cleaning out bedpans, so she chose teacher. She hated every minute of it, and didn't want me to suffer the way she had.

Yay for your mom! My husband was raised being told in no uncertain terms that his parents were sacrificing everything so he could become a successful professional. Aced his way through college and grad school on full scholarships and has a high position in his field, earning way more money than we need, and yet, he still feels like he is letting his father down because he hasn't come up with a pioneering invention or world-changing discovery and won a Nobel Prize. And his father has been dead for years.

I try to counteract that by stressing how much I want our kids to grow up and be HAPPY, and not slaves to our expectations. But then, he grew up where poverty was everywhere, severe, and could not easily be climbed out of, so he still carries that fear.

Sometimes I'm astonished how similar we are, given our starkly different environments growing up, and other times I'm shocked to discover differences I hadn't expected. Like the way we feel and express love, apparently. It challenges us to think beyond what we think is "normal" and decide what is best for our own lives.

All in all, today has been a happier day than I've had in a while.

[redpepper]

yay, so happy for you AC. I hope it holds :) What great discoveries you have made about each other. You really do love each other don't you... its obvious considering how hard you are both working on coming together again some how.

[SchrodingersCat]

But then, he grew up where poverty was everywhere, severe, and could not easily be climbed out of, so he still carries that fear.

It's not an invalid fear, and it's as true in North America as it is in India, China, and Nigeria. We Westerners just do a better job of sweeping it under the rug and pretending everything is a-o-k. But if 2008 has taught us anything, it's that everything can change in a heartbeat.

But to me, that's all the more reason to protect the close relationships you have with people. Anyone can lose their job, house, lifestyle in a heartbeat. At that point, all you have left is the love of your family. Conversely, when you lose a loved one, all the money in the world won't make it any less painful.

The thing is, helping your kids to grow and be successful is not mutually exclusive with loving and supporting them.

[bassman]

The upshot: I feel less judged now and more loved. He's ok with me spending time with these guys, as long as I'm giving enough time to my family first. He's ok with me kissing them, as long as it's not in our home and as long as no one sees. He's not ok with me having sex or any other STD-risky activity. He's leaving the gray area in between up to me, with discretion and keeping it out of our home of utmost importance. I am very happy with this. It's not terribly different from what we had before, but this time I feel like I understand him much better, and he understands me. And wow, I love him for it.

Hooray, huni, this is THE most brilliant news !!! ;););)

[AnnabelMore]

I'm SO happy for you guys!!! Eeeeeee. :D

That bit about him kissing you awake was just lovely. I think your story is a great example of how the communication that successful poly forces you to do can really strengthen your relationship in ways you'd never have expected. You sought love from other men to fill the gap in love from your husband... and in the end, through the whole process, he was finally able to understand what you needed from *him* as well as allow you the freedom to have you have what you want from others!

Beautiful. :)

[Magdlyn]

I sure hope he keeps it up until it becomes natural for him.

I was beginning to wonder if he had Asperger's

[AnotherConfused]

I sure hope he keeps it up until it becomes natural for him.

I was beginning to wonder if he had Asperger's

Funny! Part of our conversation that night was me asking if he thought he had mild Asperger's. He said yes, he thinks he probably does. It's mild though, if it is that.

What are we, two days in to feeling good about the marriage? Things are still sweet. We're just being so much kinder to each other.

[bassman]

I love the title of this thread. Not sure if my wife and I will ever be in a poly situation, but the title is really going round in my head all the time.

I need to go at my wife's pace, not mine. There is hope, she recently opened up in many ways. But I need to keep pushing gently, and at her pace!

[redpepper]

I love the title of this thread. The title is a common theory in poly... just so you know. Its a suggestion in the "lessons" thread that can be found if you do a tag search for it.

[AnotherConfused]

Well, yesterday I spent time with one of my other loves for the first time since my husband and I came to our nice agreement. I explained the rules: we must be discreet, we can't be intimate at my house, but otherwise as long as we aren't having sex or oral sex we have some leeway. Then we discovered how this plays out for us. Since he lives 5 hours away and my husband wouldn't want me there overnight, I can't see him at his house. So take away my house, his house, and public places, and we are left with... ?? We ended up trying to cuddle in his car in a roadside turnout, like teenagers. I hate gear shifts!

Any logistical tips? Seems stupid to get a hotel for two hours in the morning, which is often all the time he has, passing through town. In the summer we can just go smooch on a remote trail in the park (I'm not planning to get naked with him), but it was pouring down rain yesterday.

On the upside, my husband and I enjoyed some very hot times at the end of the day. He knew I'd had a visit with my friend but predictably didn't ask for details. Maybe he realized it contributed to my mood, but he definitely didn't seem bothered. Mostly I was focused on him, but sometimes my imagination snuck in images of both of them, and I totally lost count of orgasms. :D

[redpepper]

Oh man can I relate. I had sex with Mono in parking lots and bathrooms all over the city! Ya, you get to be very creative. One night it was at a gay bar in the mens bathroom. We were kinda stuck when someone said "heeellllllo! We are waiting for the bathroom!" Ya, they weren't expecting a woman to come out when the door opened, LOL. Not the best moment.

Really there is not much to do but wait and be creative. We did and now we live together. You never know what will happen, but its sure fun thinkin of places and trying them out. ;) that and wait for summer. Remember to pack insect repellent. That would be my advice :p

[nycindie]

If you're going to canoodle in his car, get in the back seat where you won't have to deal with the stick shift.

Do you have no-tell motels near you? The kind that you can book by the hour?

Any abandoned cabins? A campground where you can pitch a tent? Maybe get a house-sitting gig and take advantage...? The beds section in a department store?

When I was first dating my husband, we spent many hot times in movie theaters.

[Carma]

On the upside, my husband and I enjoyed some very hot times at the end of the day. He knew I'd had a visit with my friend but predictably didn't ask for details. Maybe he realized it contributed to my mood, but he definitely didn't seem bothered. Mostly I was focused on him, but sometimes my imagination snuck in images of both of them, and I totally lost count of orgasms. :D

Hmm. Upon reading this, I'd say instead of spending a lot of energy figuring out where to have your next escapade with the guy 5 inconvenient hours away.... I'd spend some serious energy planning a hot date with your husband!!! ;)

[AnotherConfused]

Hmm. Upon reading this, I'd say instead of spending a lot of energy figuring out where to have your next escapade with the guy 5 inconvenient hours away.... I'd spend some serious energy planning a hot date with your husband!!! ;)

Yes, well, my husband never disappoints in bed. And we get there more often now that we've cleared the air and made things smooth between us.


I'm sure public restrooms and such are fine if it's quick hot sex you are after, but what I really want is kissing and cuddling, which isn't so great with only a sink and toilet for furniture. Typically, he passes through town on his way between his home and a nearby city where he owns a rental and spends time socially, so we often have only a couple of hours, and usually mid-day, kind of in that window between hotel check-out and hotel check-in, and too early for the movie theater. His car normally has luggage in the back (camping gear, whatever adventure he is heading to or from). I'm thinking next time I'll take the kid seats out of my station wagon and drop the back seat down, fill it up with sleeping bags... but it still feels weird, like we have to plan for petting sessions rather than letting things unfold as they would in a home. Can't really have a cup of tea in the back of the car. It's silly...

The other weird issue is that he is mono himself, and we both agree that he deserves more than I can offer him. This means when he finds someone he'd like to pursue a full relationship with (the kind where you can openly hold hands in public, travel together, and have real sex), I'll be relegated to a friendship role. Mostly I'm fine with this, but I worry that if he really doesn't feel like he can love two women at once, maybe his feelings for me are getting in the way of what he wants. His problem, I suppose. He says he asks himself if he's happier having this limited relationship with me than he would be if he gave it up, and there's no question.

[dingedheart]

What about renting a mini van ...or full van?... day rates on those are cheap. Thermos of tea..DVD player. Leave the masturbation clean up to someone else.

Does the new guy know he's had " a fluffer type " effect on you and your husband ? If so how does he feel about that? At some point I'd think that would get old.

[AnotherConfused]

Van rental... I like that! He joked about buying a van rather than travelling by station wagon.

"Fluffer" makes it sounds like we are shooting porn. I don't think he is bothered but I will ask. I know the third man in my life is thrilled that he adds something to my sex life, however indirectly. I feel bad that neither of them (right now) have someone they can finish the act with themselves, but it's really up to them to decide if this is ok or not, I think. I sincerely want them both to find the devoted mono partners they seek, and I would back away if I thought I was preventing it. In fact, one of them told me I have been helping him a lot in that endeavor, by encouraging him to be honest (he says I "don't punish him" for speaking his mind) and letting him open up more, emotionally. He's kind of a shy nerd-type, so I'm giving him pointers and trying to shore up his confidence with women. And for me, the idea of helping him get to the point of having great sex with a woman he loves... that's a big turn on. Happy to "fluff".

[dingedheart]

He's kind of a shy nerd-type, so I'm giving him pointers and trying to shore up his confidence with women. And for me, the idea of helping him get to the point of having great sex with a woman he loves... that's a big turn on. Happy to "fluff".

You keeping thinking like that you might have the making of a great sexual healer....I suggest picking up some Barry White, and Marvin Gaye CD's for the Van/mobile office.

[AnnabelMore]

I feel bad that neither of them (right now) have someone they can finish the act with themselves, but it's really up to them to decide if this is ok or not, I think.

I just wanted to say I think you're right on track with this. Poly folk with mono folk and/or folks who have a primary and also have a secondary partner who doesn't have one, can fall into the trap of feeling guilty and like maybe they should cut things off for the good of the other person. But that's a condescending way to look at it -- as long as our partners aren't clearly suffering, we need to trust them to make their own choices. Good on you for recognizing that.

[AnotherConfused]

I just wanted to say I think you're right on track with this. Poly folk with mono folk and/or folks who have a primary and also have a secondary partner who doesn't have one, can fall into the trap of feeling guilty and like maybe they should cut things off for the good of the other person. But that's a condescending way to look at it -- as long as our partners aren't clearly suffering, we need to trust them to make their own choices. Good on you for recognizing that.

Funny, but the man I've loved for 20 years actually suggested to me a while back that I wasn't being fair to my newer love, by drawing him into a relationship where I can't meet all his needs (sexual or otherwise). I think maybe he was just feeling jealous, since that has always been his role -the would-be lover on the edge of my life. I don't think I have any obligation to worry about either of them, as long as I keep being honest about what anyone can expect. They're big boys -they can make up their own minds.

I should have given them nicknames on here by now. Anyway, I asked the one I was with this week if he minded his role in augmenting my sex life at home, and he is totally fine about it. Now I feel like just about the happiest woman on the planet. Life is buzzing with love and excitement.

[dingedheart]

You're happy to fluff the bf's what about when your husband starts thinking about having an outside relationship or two .... are you ready for that? Are you good with that happening?

[AnotherConfused]

You're happy to fluff the bf's what about when your husband starts thinking about having an outside relationship or two .... are you ready for that? Are you good with that happening?

At this point my husband cannot imagine ever wanting a romantic or sexual relationship with anyone he has no desire to be married to. I suspect even with me (the only romantic or sexual partner he has ever had) the desire to marry came first. So the idea of him having other relationships is so far fetched in my mind, I can only imagine it as erotically thrilling to me -the thought of passion overriding his scientific, logical mind. I suppose a host of other emotions would come up if it ever became a real possibility, but I can't predict what those would be. I would deal with them as they arose.

I'm having a hard time seeing the other two as boyfriends. In reading definitions on here I'd say they fit the "tertiary" description better than "secondary." Both want monogamous partnerships once they find the right woman, so I am hoping for long term friendships with this current phase of greater physical intimacy being temporary. I guess I'll feel some loss when either of them moves on, but getting this opportunity now is such a dream come true. I've only seen the one, once, since things opened up with my husband, but the feeling of freedom makes me feel good every day (and most nights, as my husband could attest). Our marriage has not felt this close or content in a long time.

[AnnabelMore]

Not to get repetitive, but... so happy for you guys, still. :)

[bassman]

the idea of him having other relationships is so far fetched in my mind, I can only imagine it as erotically thrilling to me -the thought of passion overriding his scientific, logical mind. I suppose a host of other emotions would come up if it ever became a real possibility,

Like!
This is how I feel about my wife, but with her I get excited when I see a hint that shes overriding her religious, traditionalist mind. For her, even holding hands with someone else other than me, is, I think, a long way off. Mind you, she's off on a business trip next month and a male colleague there has been in touch - I await news of that with interest, - I hope he asks her out for dinner/coffee or something, and I hope she goes!

She gets her traditionalist thinking from her parents. Now it would be my ULTIMATE one day, to see their faces, (if she had a boyfriend that is), when she introduces her boyfriend to them !!

[Magdlyn]

At this point my husband cannot imagine ever wanting a romantic or sexual relationship with anyone he has no desire to be married to. I suspect even with me (the only romantic or sexual partner he has ever had) the desire to marry came first.

My goodness. I'd be afraid to marry a virgin. So much responsibility. I've also met those who married as virgins in their 20's, who by their mid thirties began to wonder obsessively, what did I miss out on?

Were you also a virgin or had you had experiences?

[dingedheart]

Those thoughts do happen....I can think of 4 on here who said the same thing and later came around and 3 acted on those thoughts and found other partners. So that erotic thrill might just be down the road a bit.

I remember when it happened to me ....at a charity golf event. The women running the event sent ladies with a specific skill set ( Show cleavage and play to weak Men) to specific holes to sell raffle tickets. When we got to 5 Barb (volunteer selling tickets) says welcome to my hole....and then every sexually innuendo she could think of....offer to wash my balls, lick balls for good luck,...blah, blah, grand prize was a Hummer leased free for a year..hummer was more material ...I had so much fun bantering back and forth I told her I wanted to buy her a drink after....not at all expecting she would take me up on it. She did.... and we had lots of drinks... Somewhere between the 2nd and third round it hit me.... I could easily play this out to its sexy conclusion ...this could be a lot of fun.

Personally I think its just a matter of time and opportunity before those thoughts creep in. Acting on them maybe something different...that could be more situational.

[AnotherConfused]

My goodness. I'd be afraid to marry a virgin. So much responsibility. I've also met those who married as virgins in their 20's, who by their mid thirties began to wonder obsessively, what did I miss out on?

Were you also a virgin or had you had experiences?

The first week we had sex I told him he'd surely want to experience it with someone else at some point, and I'd understand. He thought that was ridiculous and it was never mentioned again -although I have let him know once in a while that I find the thought of him with someone else arousing. In his mind, sex is a way of interacting with your spouse. We're 40 now and he hasn't seemed to change his perspective on it. He hasn't learned to flirt, even with me.

I'm grateful to have had many and varied experiences myself before meeting him -from flings to longer term relationships. But maybe in my case it's because I do know what I'm missing, that I want more. I find little things that used to bother me about the way my husband interacts sexually don't matter now. He can't talk dirty -just can't, he only starts laughing, but one of my friends does that really well. And the other guy is a breast man, and I don't have a figure that usually attracts those, so it is another kind of excitement for me to experience that attention. Now I can enjoy my husband for what he does do (which is fantastic) without feeling a loss for what he doesn't.

[SchrodingersCat]

My goodness. I'd be afraid to marry a virgin. So much responsibility. I've also met those who married as virgins in their 20's, who by their mid thirties began to wonder obsessively, what did I miss out on?

Were you also a virgin or had you had experiences?

LoL my husband pretty much thinks it's cruel and unusual punishment to get married when you're still a virgin :P Like, it's a crime against your future spouse not to get as awesome as possible at sex before you tie the knot. Hey, no complaints here!!

[AnotherConfused]

LoL my husband pretty much thinks it's cruel and unusual punishment to get married when you're still a virgin :P Like, it's a crime against your future spouse not to get as awesome as possible at sex before you tie the knot. Hey, no complaints here!!

You know, it has been awkward having to teach my husband everything he should know about sex... but on the other hand, now he's sort of "custom made" to my specifications. He knows exactly what I like. ;)

A couple of things have happened for me in the time since my husband and I came to our comfortable understanding and redefined boundaries. I saw one of my friends (this is getting awkward -I'm going to call him C) a couple of weeks ago for that clumsy fumbling around in his car. After that, he was busy with holiday travel and didn't have as much time to email or chat online as we had been, and I suddenly realized that I have boundaries now that are independent of what is ok with my husband, and I'm actually not comfortable being that intimate when we have such peripheral roles in each other's lives. Today he passed through town again, with about an hour to spare for me, and we had a good talk about it. He actually does want to adjust his habits a bit to make more time for me, which makes me feel a lot better. We're in such a strange situation, not being in a position to pursue any kind of "serious" relationship (in terms of being partners), my not wanting to take him away from his active, travel-intensive lifestyle and he not wanting to intrude on my family life. So we are now trying to figure out where we can intersect. It was a good conversation, followed by only just a few minutes of somewhat more chaste kissing in his car. Oh yes, he did bring up the fact that after his last visit he left me in such a state of arousal that my husband ended up getting quite a lovely night out of it, and far from being disturbed, he was really thrilled to have done that for me (us), and hopes to be able do that again. He's scheduling a full day in town with me in a couple of weeks, so we'll see where that goes.

The other development is that I have made plans to spend Saturday at the home of my other friend, heretofore called L. (I think he was also "L" in another thread or two where I wrote in the past about him.) He's the one I've known since I was about 20, and in the past 2 decades we've grown to become friends, confidantes, and increasingly attracted to each other. With L, I do feel important to him, and have for years, and I have no reservations about taking things all the way to my husband's limits. He's been slightly uneasy about whether my husband is really ok about it, but not so much that he isn't eager and willing to do whatever I ask. For the past week or so I've been incredibly turned on by the thought of finally feeling his hands on me... something I've fantasized about for such a very long time.

Ironically, I want to be able to tell my husband how very happy I am that I finally have this freedom to love C and L and enjoy more intimacy, and it makes me love him ever so much, but I also know that he really doesn't want to talk or hear about these other relationships, so I have not said anything. I just tell him I love him and I'm happy, and I keep coming to bed naked. I suppose he gets my drift.

[dingedheart]

This is so very new that your " touch buddies" are just getting started. Kind of takes me back to Jr. High or High school. I could see it being fun for a while. I could also see it getting out of control real quick.... but that's just from my memories. Is aerosol whip cream allowed? Wait ... Better not... come to think of it, maybe that's how things got out of control. But if you do.. that's another reason to use the rent a van.

Its maybe to early to tell but has this helped your husband initiate things with you?

What stopped you from coming to bed naked before? Or did you and he didn't notice?

[MonoVCPHG]

Related to the Thread Title, but not directly to your situation :)

I've been thinking about the concept of moving at the pace of the one who is struggling the most. If both partners want to create more openness in their relationship I believe it truly works and is an excellent way to move forward. But something has always nagged at me about this. Often with the situations we read about this is not about two people moving forward towards something they both want. It's often about moving towards a change that one partner does and the other often doesn't. In these cases I think one person is moving towards something they are excited about while the other is merely trying to cope as their partner's journey unfolds. They aren't moving forward at all…because to them moving forward probably means something different. In one person's eyes, more openness is a positive, in the other's eyes it is a negative. More openness might mean "moving forward" to one where it is seen as purely "change" to the other with no implication of being a positive direction as it is often portrayed by those who want it.

The first main failing in this situation is there is no shared goal and one partner is probably not truly interested in moving forward at all. The second, and probably most damaging failing is, if achieved, there is not a lot of obvious and pure emotional reward for the reluctant partner.
In this type of scenario, the reluctant partner can become more of an observer than an active participant in this journey. They are watching and processing to see how much they can take and if they can adapt to the new relationship in a healthy way. The reed is being bent and they watch to see if they can predict if and when it will break. What do they do if the reed is going to break? Both people deserve the kind of life and relationship they can be healthy in but are both willing to break the reed to achieve it if that is what is required?

So what would be the motivation to do this? Some I believe are positive traits like wanting to support your partner or finding some joy in witnessing their happiness. Maybe they want to achieve something as an unrelated reward…"you get this, so I get this". Maybe the person believes there is personal growth to be found in challenging themselves to do this. All valid reasons I think.

But some are motivated by negative traits like feeling trapped by the external pressures associated with the relationship. Mortgages, kids, retirement plans, finances, saving face to friends and family by "not falling" in the relationship. There is the possibility that the person is setting themselves up for an "honourable exit" in the eyes of family and friends or simply need something extreme to leave the relationship. Those are the people I worry about.

I guess in short, when saying you are moving forward at the pace of the one who is struggling the most it is important to really explore if you are actually moving forward together at all.

[AnotherConfused]

This is so very new that your " touch buddies" are just getting started. Kind of takes me back to Jr. High or High school. I could see it being fun for a while. I could also see it getting out of control real quick.... but that's just from my memories. Is aerosol whip cream allowed? Wait ... Better not... come to think of it, maybe that's how things got out of control. But if you do.. that's another reason to use the rent a van.

Its maybe to early to tell but has this helped your husband initiate things with you?

What stopped you from coming to bed naked before? Or did you and he didn't notice?

"Touch buddies," that's cute. They are that, but with a big emotional layer. I actually told C a while back that he feels like a high school boyfriend to me -it's all romance and hand holding and trying to kiss when no one's looking, without the heaviness of going anywhere serious or including sex. (At least for me, I wanted nothing to do with sex in high school.)

I think my husband has been initiating sex a little more. Hard to say, because I don't often wait for him to. And we had gotten out of the habit of nude sleeping because of the kids -co-sleeping at first, and now the occasional night when we have to get up and deal with a wet bed or someone comes in after a bad dream. But now I just keep a nightgown nearby. Everything is light years better now, sexually, for us.


Mono, your comments are relevant to my situation as well, and I really appreciate your perspective (the mono man with the poly woman). I think this is exactly how it was for my husband -I'm trying to move "forward" and he's thinking, "Why the heck would we want to move in that direction?!" Which is why I waited over a year to make this recent push. I really think it has been unfair to him, for me to foist my polyamory on him more than a decade into our marriage. But for me, the direction I needed to go just kept pulling me harder and harder, to the point where I was unhappy and our marriage was going cold over the strain. In your analogy of the bending reed, I would say that it can bend too far in either direction, and the mono direction was threatening to break it for me. He asked about poly, "What's in it for me?" and while I never could really come up with a good answer other than "a happy wife," I think the outcome we are getting now really is good for both of us.

What he has given me is the freedom to love C and L (something I felt regardless) and to share a limited amount of intimacy and time with each of them. What he loses, I guess, is a small amount of my time and attention (not much more than with any other friend or interest I have) and the change to the boundaries of our relationship. Our marriage now has this aspect that he is maybe a little ashamed of, that we must keep hidden. (Oddly, he told my mother without asking me if that was ok.) He has the knowledge that he's not the only one who kisses me, or touches me, but he's still the only one putting a penis in me, and the only one sleeping beside me at night. He's the one I have a home with, have children with, plan the future with.

What he has gained is a very happy wife. Not just happy because I get to have more physical intimacy with C and L, but happy because I'm not feeling torn any more, and I'm not feeling like he is keeping me from what I want any more. Marriage doesn't feel confining now -it feels supporting. Especially now that I have figured out that his hard limits (no PIV sex, oral sex) are no more restrictive than what I want for myself in those two relationships. With C, our physical intimacy is now slowing down to the pace of our emotional intimacy, as we try to figure out our roles in each other's lives, and with L, that man has bedded so many dozens of women over the years I kind of feel like it makes me more special to withhold just that much in our relationship. So it's no longer my husband holding me back from how much I do with them, it's my own wants and needs.

My husband gets a happier wife, more and much hotter sex, more emotional intimacy between us after the conversations this forced us to have, and probably better treatment from me. I used to catch myself, when we went out dancing, wanting to correct things about the way he danced -adjust his grip or correct his rhythm -and I'd hate to hear myself do that, because I don't correct any other man I dance with. I realized it's because I'm more vested in how well he dances, since he's my husband. When I shift my focus and just let him dance like one of the many other men I dance with, and not a possession of mine, we both have more fun. Now I can do the same with love. It's ok if he doesn't show me love in exactly the way I want to feel it, because he's one of a few who love me. I can enjoy what he has to offer, and let C and L give me flirty and dirty.

[MonoVCPHG]

In your analogy of the bending reed, I would say that it can bend too far in either direction, and the mono direction was threatening to break it for me. .

This is very important to acknowledge. I fully appreciate the strain on the poly partner's end of the situation. I am truly gald that you are both finding happiness and benefits in this journey :) Your thread was the perfect spot to express and explore this idea for me. Thanks!

[nycindie]

I've been thinking about the concept of moving at the pace of the one who is struggling the most. ... Often with the situations we read about this is not about two people moving forward towards something they both want. It's often about moving towards a change that one partner does and the other often doesn't. ... In one person's eyes, more openness is a positive, in the other's eyes it is a negative. ... The first main failing in this situation is there is no shared goal and one partner is probably not truly interested in moving forward at all. ... if achieved, there is not a lot of obvious and pure emotional reward for the reluctant partner.

Good stuff to ponder, Mono. I think that it's okay if there isn't the same goal shared between partners for this concept to be applied and work well in a relationship. I think it's natural in most partnerships that there will on occasion be some kind of accomplishment they move toward with differing goals in mind. If it really is only one person who sees any value in such changes to a relationship and both partners don't honestly consent to it, then it isn't moving forward, it isn't consensual, nor based on an agreement, I would think. So, no, while I don't think it's necessary for two partners to have a "shared goal," as in the same exact goal, to consider "going at the pace of the one who struggles most" to be "moving forward," I think there has to be some perceived value, and a willingness to agree from each partner. Obviously, there needs to be lots and lots of straightforward, honest communication.

I think the problems that we often see with some people's situations of "going at the pace of the one who struggles most," here and on other forums, can usually be attributed to one of several reasons:
one partner "moves forward" without truly getting agreement from the other, and essentially tells them to "suck it up";
the partner wanting change coerces the other to go along with it, even though they don't really want to, and makes the changes before their partner is ready to accept them;
the "moving forward" partner gets impatient and jumps ahead of where they agreed to be, breaks boundaries, etc., and then blames the other for keeping things dragging on too long; or
the "struggling" partner is fearful or insecure and deliberately slows things down to prevent any more change from happening, even though they agreed and recognize the value of whatever those changes are.
But implicit in the concept of "going at the pace of the one who struggles most" is that there has been agreement to do so. One of the basic defining characteristics of polyamory is that it is consensual, so if there isn't consent by all parties, then the whole "going at the pace" thing flies out the window and is just one person giving lip service and having their own way.

AnotherConfused, I know Mono wasn't talking specifically about your situation, but I just want to mention (since this is your thread!) that I think you have been really thoughtful and careful about addressing this with your husband, and you made it clear you would not move forward in any way if he was not consenting to it. So, I believe you are both moving forward, even though this isn't something he ever would have wanted if you'd never brought it to him. He saw the value in giving his consent and agreement, in that he gets a "happier wife" and a reprieve from having to discuss it again, which is something he was uncomfortable with, so it also brings him peace in that way, in addition to some other things. ;) And maybe just having a harmonious marriage was the "shared goal" in this.

He asked about poly, "What's in it for me?" and while I never could really come up with a good answer other than "a happy wife," I think the outcome we are getting now really is good for both of us.

What he has given me is the freedom to love C and L (something I felt regardless) and to share a limited amount of intimacy and time with each of them. ...

What he has gained is a very happy wife. ... My husband gets a happier wife, more and much hotter sex, more emotional intimacy between us after the conversations this forced us to have, and probably better treatment from me.

[MonoVCPHG]

I think the problems that we often see with some people's situations of "going at the pace of the one who struggles most," here and on other forums, can usually be attributed to one of several reasons:
one partner "moves forward" without truly getting agreement from the other, and essentially tells them to "suck it up";
the partner wanting change coerces the other to go along with it, even though they don't really want to, and makes the changes before their partner is ready to accept them;
the "moving forward" partner gets impatient and jumps ahead of where they agreed to be, breaks boundaries, etc., and then blames the other for keeping things dragging on too long; or
the "struggling" partner is fearful or insecure and deliberately slows things down to prevent any more change from happening, even though they agreed and recognize the value of whatever those changes are.
But implicit in the concept of "going at the pace of the one who struggles most" is that there has been agreement to do so. One of the basic defining characteristics of polyamory is that it is consensual, so if there isn't consent by all parties, then the whole "going at the pace" thing flies out the window and is just one person giving lip service and having their own way.



Excellent points NYC! I think you nailed the reasons. You are right that there has to be an initial understanding/agreement about what "moving forward" is in order for this to be a valid aproach. Sometimes people assume they know where things are going but without extreme clarity that can be misinterpreted. I think it is also important to really push the partner who doesn't want change to be clear about what they do want. At least then you know what you are really dealing with and can decide if it is worth trying to move forward or simply abandon ship.

[AnotherConfused]

One of the basic defining characteristics of polyamory is that it is consensual...

Obviously this is true, but I'm trying to get my mind around this. In terms of polyamory as a relationship structure, it implies consent, but when it comes to polyamory as a personality trait (for lack of a better term) it just happens regardless, from my experience. I love other men whether my husband agrees to it or not -heck, I love them whether I agree to it or not! Life would be simpler if I didn't.

And monogamy (as a relationship structure) also requires mutual consent. It's something I agreed to informally at the beginning of our relationship, and formally when we married, but lately I haven't been able to stick to that agreement, at least emotionally, any more. So we got stuck in the no man's land where I couldn't consent to monogamy and he couldn't consent to polyamory, until we worked out this compromise that seems to feel right for both of us. It wouldn't surprise me if ten years down the road we have shifted again, either back towards monogamy or further towards polyamory.

I just want to mention, AC, that I think you have been really thoughtful and careful about addressing this with your husband...And maybe just having a harmonious marriage was the "shared goal" in this.

Yes!!! And I think that's what moving "forward" is all about. Moving to that place where we are happiest, wherever that ends up being right now.

[AnotherConfused]

I think it is also important to really push the partner who doesn't want change to be clear about what they do want.

This was so extremely key in getting to our point of resolution! We had both been feeling short-changed by each other, until we finally realized that we were trying to meet each other's needs by giving each other what we wanted for ourselves. The old "Golden Rule" just didn't work, because no matter how much affection and sexual interest I showed him, he still didn't feel like I was spending enough time tutoring our children or improving our home, and no matter how hard he worked for our family, I still didn't feel like he was showing me enough desire and romance. When we got down to "I want to feel your love and this is what I mean by that," everything started falling into place. Then we figured out that I can give my husband what he wants (playing my violin with the girls, staying off the computer when they are home) and still have what I was asking for (affection and emotional connection, from him and with C and L). Happiness abounds!

[nycindie]

... I'm trying to get my mind around this. In terms of polyamory as a relationship structure, it implies consent, but when it comes to polyamory as a personality trait (for lack of a better term) it just happens regardless, from my experience. I love other men whether my husband agrees to it or not -heck, I love them whether I agree to it or not! Life would be simpler if I didn't.
Well, hmm, for myself, I view polyamory as a relationship structure or practice. I don't see it as a personality trait or orientation like gender, though I think it's pretty obvious that human beings have a huge capacity to love many people. If I say I am polyamorous, I don't mean that it is part of my personality; I just mean that I choose to practice polyamory.

As far as consent goes, I think that really can only be applied to the practice of polyamory as a structure or approach to relationships. It is true that no amount of permission or control from anyone else (or ourselves) can keep us from loving. Many, many swingers have discovered that, for example, they can't prevent love from happening. But you could say you gave yourself consent to love someone other than your partner! Some people won't even allow themselves to feel that and they bury it.

And monogamy (as a relationship structure) also requires mutual consent.
Good point.

[MorningTwilight]

Well, hmm, for myself, I view polyamory as a relationship structure or practice. I don't see it as a personality trait or orientation like gender, though I think it's pretty obvious that human beings have a huge capacity to love many people. If I say I am polyamorous, I don't mean that it is part of my personality; I just mean that I choose to practice polyamory.

There is probably something analogous to the Kinsey Scale for this. For me, it's most definitely a personality trait--if I say that I am polyamorous, I mean that it is part of my personality, whether I practice it or not.


As far as consent goes, I think that really can only be applied to the practice of polyamory as a structure or approach to relationships. It is true that no amount of permission or control from anyone else (or ourselves) can keep us from loving. Many, many swingers have discovered that, for example, they can't prevent love from happening. But you could say you gave yourself consent to love someone other than your partner! Some people won't even allow themselves to feel that and they bury it.


And they suffer as a result. Repressing part of yourself always comes at a price.

MT

[HumbleBee]

I've followed this thread with much interest and joy, and I feel so happy to see the love and wisdom shared between OP/AnotherConfused/AC vs hubby and OP vs commentors.

Am glad to be a part of a community with such kindness and insightfulness.

@AC: I deeply respect the way you have been dealing with your situation and I've enjoyed following your thought processes. I find you've really tried to understand hubby's feelings/ thoughts and reproduce them here without passing judgement. You sound like a wise person to me.

The different comments teach me a lot, and am grateful for Mono's post over here, too. I've felt much like that in my relation, that am pushing us in a direction where I've been unsure if I was the only one REALLY wanting to go. I see (and know, yes) that one needs to communicate needs, desires etc etc and figure if both are on the same track...

Also wanted to say that am with MorningTwilight and AC on the "definition" of polyamorous- which might be a thread on it's own (and probably already is?). To me "polyamorous" is the emotional side of it, the fact that I fall in love with more than one, more so than acting on it.

I wish you all the best AC and look forward to follow your journey.

Aaaaaaaand, I wish there was a "Like" button here, cause there is so much I like to comment on, or say I agree to, but it will take hours to copy and comment :-D

[BrigidsDaughter]

This: "Aaaaaaaand, I wish there was a "Like" button here, cause there is so much I like to comment on, or say I agree to, but it will take hours to copy and comment :-D"

[AnotherConfused]

I've followed this thread with much interest and joy, and I feel so happy to see the love and wisdom shared between OP/AnotherConfused/AC vs hubby and OP vs commentors.

Am glad to be a part of a community with such kindness and insightfulness.

@AC: I deeply respect the way you have been dealing with your situation and I've enjoyed following your thought processes. I find you've really tried to understand hubby's feelings/ thoughts and reproduce them here without passing judgement. You sound like a wise person to me.

I wish you all the best AC and look forward to follow your journey.



Thank you! I try to be respectful in what I write here, even if I have my tantrums and selfish outbursts at home.

Yesterday I had my first visit with L since my marriage boundaries were redefined. Funny but the night before, it was C writing to ask how long I'd be gone and confessing to some jealousy -or envy maybe. We agreed it was amusing that he preferred me coming home at night to the bed I share with my husband, the one I have real sex with, rather than staying long with L, where we don't have sex. C said he couldn't understand his feelings even though he was the one feeling him. I don't think he was upset at all, just maybe envious. He's so far away.

If anyone has ever experienced 20 years of attraction to a friend without acting on it (other than kisses and words), and then finally having some moments (ok, hours) of intimacy, you might understand what yesterday's visit felt like for me. Oh my. The only bad moment was when his 16 yr old son, who'd been sleeping late, suddenly walked into the living room where we were lying on the couch -clothed, not kissing, but definitely tangled up together. I had promised my husband discretion, so I felt horrible about this. L didn't think his son would think anything of it, but after that he was stomping loudly or talking to himself out loud whenever he entered the room, so I know he assumed we were up to more. (He'd been asked to go out for the day so we could "talk" but he didn't wake up until something like 2pm.) I guess after I left L spoke to him very briefly, saying that we weren't doing anything that wasn't ok with my husband. I hope that was enough.

When I got home I freaked out a bit because my husband looked a little sad and distant, but my daughters told me he had only been that way for the past couple of hours after they discovered our sick pet chicken had died. When he came to bed at night everything was clearly a-ok. For me I think a teensy bit of jealousy feeds my sexual flames. I don't know if he was feeling any jealousy, but there were flames a-plenty!

So I guess all is still well in my little world. What is a V if the hinge has 3 partners instead of two? A Y?

[AnnabelMore]

"We agreed it was amusing that he preferred me coming home at night to the bed I share with my husband, the one I have real sex with, rather than staying long with L, where we don't have sex. C said he couldn't understand his feelings even though he was the one feeling him. I don't think he was upset at all, just maybe envious. He's so far away."

Actually this makes perfect sense to me. My gf and I are still working on getting back to a sexual place in our relationship after the birth of her baby. I was glad to hear that she and her husband were having sex again, but was terribly jealous at the thought that she might possibly hook up with a female friend (which turned out to be all in my head, but still).

Your situation is different of course, but I think the same basic thing is happening. Being jealous of your husband would make no sense at all for C because he knows that you and your husband have a special relationship with a unique place in your life that well predates the expression of intimacy between you and he. It's like, it's on such a different level that there's no reason to be jealous. Whereas your relationship with L is quite similar to his relationship with you (and it sounds like it's easier for you and L to be alone together to boot!) so it's easier to draw a direct correlation and feel put out at any potential disparities.

To use an irreverent analogy, imagine a priest. He sees the pope's deeply personal and unique connection to god and he's inspired, but he sees a fellow priest with a (seemingly) closer relationship to god than him and he finds himself a little jealous because the other priest is on the same level as him and therefore it's frustrating that he can't do as well as his fellow, whereas he'd never dream of comparing himself to the pope.

[dingedheart]

16 yr boys aren't known for their discretion. In fact the kids friends may have been notified before you and L could get your shirts tucked back in. What about the kids mother how discrete is she. That might be big news around the kitchen table.

[SourGirl]

And they suffer as a result. Repressing part of yourself always comes at a price.

MT

Actually, that price can be a worthy investment. Not always negative. It can teach people to love better.

There seems to be this never-ending thought process in poly, that if you feel something for someone, you are now a slave to the emotion, and everyone just has to understand that.
That, doing anything other then promoting that love, is a suppression.

That is a cop-out. There are many times we feel love for people and it may not be a good idea to pursue it. Sometimes this happens when we love someone unavailable, sometimes it happens when people love unsuitable people. Sometimes it is unrequited.

Most people struggle with the lack of recognition for their love. If you learn how to deal with it, you can then move ahead logically. Not everyone you have feelings for, is suitable to pursue.

How that ties into the topic ?

Love is a 2-way street. That street intersects with many other streets. Going at the pace of the one struggling the most, is love within itself.

If you want a struggling partner to be authentic and truly work on things, then make sure you are doing the same.
I see many cases, where someone is suspicious that their partner is going slow on purpose. Yet, they haven`t really been authentic themself. They have a feeling and just run with it. Always trying to maneuver for that feel-good opportunity, yet forgetting their existing partner.
As if NRE is some type of power-trip that the rest of the world should just accept.
They forget to look after the loving relationship they already have.

If you act like love is a chess game, where you move partners around, then expect slower partners to do the same. You reap what you sow.

[AnotherConfused]

Love is a 2-way street. That street intersects with many other streets. Going at the pace of the one struggling the most, is love within itself.

If you want a struggling partner to be authentic and truly work on things, then make sure you are doing the same.
I see many cases, where someone is suspicious that their partner is going slow on purpose. Yet, they haven`t really been authentic themself. They have a feeling and just run with it. Always trying to maneuver for that feel-good opportunity, yet forgetting their existing partner.
As if NRE is some type of power-trip that the rest of the world should just accept.
They forget to look after the loving relationship they already have.

These are good points, Sourgirl, and they go back to my original question.

In my marriage, my husband feels strongly monogamous and I feel strongly polyamorous. When I first realized what was going on with my own feelings, I tried to stop them. In my case, though, I was falling in love with a long time friend, L, and I wasn't willing to throw out years and years of friendship completely, cutting ties. So the feelings remained in my life, and I worked on containing them, interacting only in ways appropriate to my monogamous marriage. This was a struggle, but thankfully over time the NRE gave way to ORE, which helps dissipate that intense longing. Still, that kind of love is also hard to ignore. Meanwhile, my husband had about a year to digest the fact that I love L, and that it didn't at all change my desire to stay married.

When I found myself falling for C this spring, the NRE pull was huge, of course, and I did everything I could to put the breaks on, short of telling him to cut contact. Maybe the loving thing to do for my husband would have been just that, but I knew enough of myself by then that I was sure I'd fall for someone else, and someone else, and someone else, as long as I kept this empty space in my life where I really feel someone needs to be. (Like a mother of one who wants a second child; she's going to get wistful at every baby she meets.)

So for me, after a couple of years of struggling over L, and a half year of struggling over C, and half a year debilitated by the painful condition of inflammation in the sac around my heart, I just felt like I'd struggled as much as I could take, holding back my desire to love. And my husband had done his best to ignore the whole thing, all the while. His pace was inertia, and that didn't feel loving.

I'm really glad I made that push, last month, even though I thought for a while that we weren't going to make it. Now, after months of mostly being bedridden, my heart sac inflammation has completely gone away -I actually haven't felt any pain since we resolved this. I've stopped the 12 ibuprofen a day and all the other drugs and herbs. I think I had internalized my emotional struggle until I was that physically sick. (At its worst, it hurt to laugh, it hurt to talk, it hurt to sit up.)

Maybe a more loving, caring wife could have kept going, devoting herself more single-mindedly to marriage and her husband's happiness and ignoring the rest of her needs, but I am not that strong.

What we have now makes me ecstatically happy. My husband looks happier too. He doesn't have a sick, resentful, depressed, unfulfilled wife any more. He has a wife who feels complete and sexy and grateful and alive. We have grown closer. I have stopped struggling, and have more energy to love him with. I'm sure there are people who chase after NRE and neglect their current partners, but in my case the only way I could authentically love my husband was to take the chains off my heart and be true to myself first.

[AnotherConfused]

Being jealous of your husband would make no sense at all for C because he knows that you and your husband have a special relationship with a unique place in your life that well predates the expression of intimacy between you and he. It's like, it's on such a different level that there's no reason to be jealous. Whereas your relationship with L is quite similar to his relationship with you (and it sounds like it's easier for you and L to be alone together to boot!) so it's easier to draw a direct correlation and feel put out at any potential disparities.


I think that's exactly right. C has never wanted to be my husband. I think L has been jealous of C, and C has been jealous of L, because they are both in the same position, on the edges of my life. Luckily I don't think the jealousy runs strong in either case. They both seem mighty happy with the way things are now.

[AnotherConfused]

16 yr boys aren't known for their discretion. In fact the kids friends may have been notified before you and L could get your shirts tucked back in. What about the kids mother how discrete is she. That might be big news around the kitchen table.

L said he would not expect his son to say anything about it. I'd like to believe him, but time will only tell. This is where it is fortunate that we live in separate cities, where our friendship circles don't intersect much. I could say the boy's mother is a master at discretion -L had no idea she was carrying on an affair with his best friend until the day she announced she was leaving him. She doesn't really know me or my family though. I think we'll be ok.

[SourGirl]

Maybe a more loving, caring wife could have kept going, devoting herself more single-mindedly to marriage and her husband's happiness and ignoring the rest of her needs, but I am not that strong.



I`m not sure how being more loving and more caring gets wrapped around the idea of ignoring ones own needs ?

Not in any healthy relationship I know of.

There is a difference between moving in a direction of health, and moving in the direction of feel-good opportunities. That is where the crux is in my mind. People with a 'itch to scratch' do so regardless of the scenario,...swinging,..poly,..whatever. 'Love' becomes this excuse for desires, rather then a ongoing part of loving in an authentic way.


If you took the time to make sure that your wants and desires were viable, and you worked through differences, that is a very different scenario, then those playing mind games with each other.

[AnnabelMore]

I think there's a big difference between repressing your feelings, which is what Nyc was describing and MT was decrying, and controlling your feelings, which is what SG is advocating. Repressing your feelings means hiding them from yourself and/or those close to you. Controlling your feelings means acknowledging them and dealing with them appropriately (which may well mean not acting on them).

I believe that repressing your feelings can be very bad for your health and stability. That's what AC did for many years by hiding these feelings from her husband. Coming clean was an important step, but it still left her suffering even though all she was doing at that point was controlling her feelings.

I think the difficult things here were that:

1) She knew her feelings could and would be returned by these men, so it was very different from a situation where you have to control your emotions because the object of your desire will be offended or is somehow unsuitable... in that sort of scenario you can gain some comfort and closure by knowing that it's impossible anyway.

2) She knew she was capable of loving them in a way that would be fulfilling to her without taking away from her marriage, she knew that she could love them in a completely non-destructive way if only allowed to do so. In a situation where the only way to act on your feelings is to destroy something else you love, it again becomes easier to gain comfort and closure by just squarely facing the reality and making your choice, but she could see there was a third way.

3) She is naturally polyamorous, it would seem. I know this is a subject of debate on this board, and I think it really is different for different people. Some people, like Nyc and myself, choose to live a poly lifestyle even though we have in the past and could again choose to be mono. You could say we're flexibly amorous. Others, like Mono and Sage and my bf Davis, are fundamentally mono and naturally find their happiness solely in that lovestyle. Yet others, like AC, are fundamentally poly, and naturally find their happiness in actively, openly loving more than one person and remain unfulfilled when blocked from this possibility. [I hope I haven't offended anyone by using them as an example, just my observations.]

Due to these factors, controlling her feelings to the point of not acting on them became as harmful as repressing them. I would bet money, if there were a way to be sure, that it's no coincidence that her inflammation has ended now that she is free to express her love. I have a close friend who was hospitalized twice for a very similar condition and has been fully healthy ever since she found a job that made her happy and ditched the one that made her miserable.

I think it's worthwhile to note that AC is still controlling her emotions -- she's not sleeping with these men or running off with them -- it's just that for her, completely controlling them was not going to work. I think her story is a great example of responsibly finding the right balance for a complex situation.

[AnotherConfused]

Thank you, AnnabelMore. In the most appropriate and harmless way possible, I love you for that.

[AnnabelMore]

:)

[SourGirl]

I think there's a big difference between repressing your feelings, which is what Nyc was describing and MT was decrying, and controlling your feelings, which is what SG is advocating. Repressing your feelings means hiding them from yourself and/or those close to you. Controlling your feelings means acknowledging them and dealing with them appropriately (which may well mean not acting on them).

I believe that repressing your feelings can be very bad for your health and stability. That's what AC did for many years by hiding these feelings from her husband. Coming clean was an important step, but it still left her suffering even though all she was doing at that point was controlling her feelings.


Right-e-o Annabel on the definitions.

Though I was splitting on various points, and tying them together, based on others responses. My bad. ;)
I think people need to examine 'appropriate' love or healthy feelings, versus those that do more harm then good. When I see constant responses that equate all 'controlled' feelings as repressed, I chip in. I`m not that much of a hippie, I guess.

Towards the Op, the spirit of the post was meant more along the lines of 'Examine how you did things,..and if you still feel good, then stop chastising yourself and feeling guilty.'

None of this is easy. No one does it perfectly. It is always a work in progress.

[rory]

I think there's a big difference between repressing your feelings, which is what Nyc was describing and MT was decrying, and controlling your feelings, which is what SG is advocating. Repressing your feelings means hiding them from yourself and/or those close to you. Controlling your feelings means acknowledging them and dealing with them appropriately (which may well mean not acting on them).

I completely agree with you on that whole post! Though I was wondering if the concept of "controlling one's feelings" might be better put "managing one's feelings" or "controlling one's reactions to their feelings"? Just semantics (but hey, I remember you're into that :p), since I think there is a common misconception that one can control their feelings, when really all one can do is decide how they react to them and what they do. I did totally get your point, though, semantics aside. :)

[AnotherConfused]

I completely agree with you on that whole post! Though I was wondering if the concept of "controlling one's feelings" might be better put "managing one's feelings" or "controlling one's reactions to their feelings"? Just semantics (but hey, I remember you're into that :p), since I think there is a common misconception that one can control their feelings, when really all one can do is decide how they react to them and what they do. I did totally get your point, though, semantics aside. :)

I think this is a really good point! My feelings are not something I can really control, but what I do with them is entirely voluntary. Asking someone who is polyamorous (or anyone who is in love) to stop having feelings for someone causes the reaction, "I can't!" More appropriate is to ask what someone's reaction to those feelings is going to be. For me, it was a long journey to find the balance that minimized suffering for both my husband and for me (and maybe L and C).

The journey still continues. Now my husband isn't comfortable interacting with L, he says. L hosts an annual event that my family attends (my kids especially look forward to it) and my husband is now afraid to go -afraid people will figure out L and I have something going on, and will say something about it. I think he's also afraid L won't respect him as much, now that L has touched his wife, although if anything I think L respects him more for giving me that freedom. Seeing as the kids have been promised this trip, and he doesn't want any of us spending the night, he'll end up going because I don't want to drive back late at night. Maybe he'll feel better once he's seen that no one there knows or cares, and that L and I aren't going to behave any differently. This is in a couple of weeks. We'll see.

So much drama...

[SourGirl]

I completely agree with you on that whole post! Though I was wondering if the concept of "controlling one's feelings" might be better put "managing one's feelings" or "controlling one's reactions to their feelings"? Just semantics (but hey, I remember you're into that :p), since I think there is a common misconception that one can control their feelings, when really all one can do is decide how they react to them and what they do. I did totally get your point, though, semantics aside. :)

Actually it can be both, no ?

You might be in a situation where you control your feelings :

- You feel a initial spark towards somebody who just seems like bad news. Rather then let it develop, you remove yourself from situations where you are around them.

Managing your feelings :

- You have a co-worker that you see daily. You cannot avoid this person. Place of employment has a strict rule about not dating co-workers. Regardless, feelings develop. You then learn to manage your feelings, so as not to lose your job.

The difference is in the feelings having grounds to develop or not.

[nycindie]

... I was wondering if the concept of "controlling one's feelings" might be better put "managing one's feelings" or "controlling one's reactions to their feelings"?

I like the sound of "managing" but "controlling" isn't always a bad thing. When driving, one needs to know how to control a car so that it doesn't kill anyone, after all.

I don't know why I am reminded of this but I had a teacher who used to say "Emotion = Energy in motion." Sometimes we treat our emotions as if they are these strange, precious things that should be given full reign. But controlling them is an essential skill. Without it, so much damage can be done, especially for those times when the emotions we're experiencing are actually more like responses we have trained ourselves to have when we entertain certain thoughts.

When I was growing up, I learned that the only way I could get my mother's attention was to cry and become overwrought about stuff that I needed or wanted to say. A lifetime of that and I still have a hard time not crying when I need to say something important. I once cried all through an entire evaluation I was being given at a job I had and, afterwards, the HR manager told me never to let my boss see me cry again over work stuff, as it just doesn't look good. He wasn't there to be my mommy; he was there to tell me how to do my job better.

There are times when my tears are genuine, of course, but a lot of the time I realize that my tears are more connected to how I trained myself to express difficult communications, rather than the communication itself. So I have to control it. It is still my feelings I am controlling (somewhere inside I am apprehensive about saying what I need to say), and if I don't control them, the real deeper issues are obscured. Like the other night, my eyes were brimming over when I was saying something to Lively that I really wanted him to hear, but since I'd been nervous about saying it, the tears came. What happened? He noticed and commented on the fact that I was crying rather than what I said. Ugh! So, yeah, controlling, managing feelings, however you want to put it... vital.

[redpepper]

Could we move the entire last two pages over to the conflicted thread?! The one with the guy cheating and saying he "unexpectedly" had sex with another woman without his wife knowing?

We can fall in love at the drop of the hat, its what we do with that after we realize it and find ita returned that matters.

[AnotherConfused]

Whoa, I had a nightmare about "unexpected" sex recently. Found myself suddenly in the midst of it with L, with absolutely no awareness of how it got to that point. Not fun -I was freaking out in my dream! I'm so thankful we actually can control our actions. Whew!

[nycindie]

Could we move the entire last two pages over to the conflicted thread?! The one with the guy cheating and saying he "unexpectedly" had sex with another woman without his wife knowing?
Not sure if you're serious or joking, but since my responses here were specific to this thread, I'd rather not have my posts moved, RP. But I don't mind if you quote anything I wrote here for the other thread, if there's something I posted here that you would find applies to that one.

[redpepper]

I was joking. I ended up posting a link to here and a reference to these pages. Thanks, I might just quote as well if it helps to do so. :)

[AnnabelMore]

Whoa, I had a nightmare about "unexpected" sex recently. Found myself suddenly in the midst of it with L, with absolutely no awareness of how it got to that point. Not fun -I was freaking out in my dream! I'm so thankful we actually can control our actions. Whew!

Funnily enough, I had a similar dream a couple of days ago myself (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=113959&postcount=295).

[AnnabelMore]

I completely agree with you on that whole post! Though I was wondering if the concept of "controlling one's feelings" might be better put "managing one's feelings" or "controlling one's reactions to their feelings"? Just semantics (but hey, I remember you're into that :p), since I think there is a common misconception that one can control their feelings, when really all one can do is decide how they react to them and what they do. I did totally get your point, though, semantics aside. :)

Very good point, I do think that word is probably more appropriate.

I like it when my (conversational) partners remember what I'm into. :D

[dingedheart]

Well she certainly can keep her own secrets well hidden and its great that there's such geographical distance between all of you where it won't likely be a problem. I think the 16yr old will look at everything differently form now on ....new code for "talk " those images are now in that little head ...talking will not dislodge them. I wouldn't be surprised if he views you differently after that. I bet his take on how people form relationships is ever shifting from the things he witnessed or is learning about. Now the new chapter poly.

Why would you want to put your husband into an uncomfortable situation ...because you don't want to drive at night. What's your fear of night driving?
Is he a natural born night driver? excellent night vision or something. I don't see how you're really going out of your way to help the struggle partner in this situation. "Ok you don't want to go fine ... then we'll be staying over .... but I don't want you to stay over either, well you pick it I'm nit driving at night ...balls in your court". It sounds like ...could be wrong ...you are getting/doing what you want.... and not just for the kids.

[AnotherConfused]

Why would you want to put your husband into an uncomfortable situation ...because you don't want to drive at night. What's your fear of night driving?
Is he a natural born night driver? excellent night vision or something. I don't see how you're really going out of your way to help the struggle partner in this situation. "Ok you don't want to go fine ... then we'll be staying over .... but I don't want you to stay over either, well you pick it I'm not driving at night ...balls in your court". It sounds like ...could be wrong ...you are getting/doing what you want.... and not just for the kids.

Mostly I don't think I'd feel safe driving for 2 hours after being up late dancing. In previous years we've always spent the night. I thought about seeing if another friend would go along and do the return driving, but I think if anyone (like L's son) is thinking anything inappropriate is going on, showing up without my husband is going to perpetuate that. I doubt my husband would like that either. The best thing for the adults' situation might be for none of us to go, but the kids would be devastated. They already called foul because I visited L without them last weekend, and I assured them that they'd get to go soon. I also think that if we all go, he and L will have this jam-packed crowded event (I think last year about 85 people came) in which to get past their awkwardness, by being together without having to talk to each other, and that will remove a lot of the fears of "what-if". If there's a better scenario (for all of us, not just me) I just don't see what it would be, and neither does my husband.

[AnotherConfused]

Now that I think about it, I'm getting kind of confused. Here I have my three beloved men. My husband is great -everything's good between us now. (He bought me flowers today, for no particular reason...)

With his permission, I tried getting more physically intimate with C, but was left feeling a little odd about it, because of his very busy life. Hard to not hear from someone for a couple of days after they've had their hand in your pants. So the next visit involved a lot more talking, and his assurance that I am more important to him than his level of interaction had led me to believe. He has been emailing, chatting, calling, and scheduled a whole day visit next week, so he seems sincere, but I'm still not sure how much intimacy I can handle with someone I can't ask for any kind of commitment.

Last weekend's visit with L was certainly a long time fantasy come true, but the repercussion seems to be that his relationship with my husband, and therefore my family, is in jeopardy. I liked him in bed but I think I liked him as a friend of the whole family even more. So I'm thinking about taking the physical intimacy back out -although that may not fix things at this point. Maybe over time, though?

Isn't this odd? I finally have the freedom to enjoy somewhat-sexual relationships with L and C without cheating, and I'm not sure if I want them any more (or yet, maybe, in C's case). I never expected to feel this way. Has this happened to anyone else? Even with C, I think of all the interests he has in common with my husband and I wish that they could become friends. They probably could have if I hadn't become so enraptured with his touch. I'm finding myself suddenly grateful for all the friends my husband and I share, who I am not sexually or romantically attracted to.

Have other people regretted adding sex (or limited kinds of sexual contact) to relationships because they've driven a wedge between partners?

[SourGirl]

Isn't this odd? I finally have the freedom to enjoy somewhat-sexual relationships with L and C without cheating, and I'm not sure if I want them any more (or yet, maybe, in C's case). I never expected to feel this way. Has this happened to anyone else? Even with C, I think of all the interests he has in common with my husband and I wish that they could become friends. They probably could have if I hadn't become so enraptured with his touch. I'm finding myself suddenly grateful for all the friends my husband and I share, who I am not sexually or romantically attracted to.

Have other people regretted adding sex (or limited kinds of sexual contact) to relationships because they've driven a wedge between partners?

Well no, haven`t regretted actual sex, but I did confuse myself with certain aspects of sex. Some aspects of poly I internalized it, to think I needed to give more. Compromise more. So things like fluid-bonding, or sleepovers I didn`t really feel a strong desire to have, but did it feeling I had to 'compromise' for partners.

The lessons were mine to learn. Nobody is pressuring me to not sleep-over or not fluid-bond,..it is my choice, and the wrong thing to compromise on.

In your case though, it sounds like the forbidden fruit might of been a bit more exciting ? That isn`t necessarily a bad thing. You might still want sex, just not right now. It tells me, that at the least, with the 'permission' you can stop day dreaming, and the reality of the situation is settling in.

From here, you can just keep talking, keep evolving, and let things go naturally and unforced.

It is much like losing your virginity. How well does it ever seem to work, when people 'planned' the night to actually lose their virginity ? Usually it backfires, or is less then desired.

If you want to lose your 'monogamous virginity', dont plan it, and don't be pressured into it. ( but DO be prepared for it.) Wait until you feel desire again. This time with no guilt. :)

[nycindie]

It makes perfect sense that you might not feel totally comfortable yourself with getting what you've wanted for so long. I am not thinking so much about "forbidden fruit," as SourGirl mentioned, but just the discomfort of a new experience.

As an example... Before my husband and I split, we hadn't had sex in over two years. It bothered me and we talked about it, but never tried to rekindle what we'd previously had, for some reason. I guess it really was over but neither of us wanted to admit it. I just kept hoping that someday we'd start having sex again (oy!). Then one day he asked for a divorce. When he moved out, it felt like the bottom had dropped out. I suddenly felt the depth and scope of having gone without physical intimacy for so long. It was so intensely painful. After a few months of sobbing over the emotional loss of my marriage, I started feeling like I could socialize again, and I began craving sex. Omigosh, it was truly a palpable, physical craving, and I really REALLY needed it.

The first few times I had sex with men other than my husband, to whom I'd been totally faithful for 12 years, it was exciting and fun and affirmed that I was still attractive and all that, but afterwards... I just felt weird. I had now crossed a line I never thought I would. I was single again, and it wasn't my husband in bed with me. Huh, how did this happen? It was what my body wanted, but I just didn't know how to wrap my brain around this new chapter in my life. I had this idea my life was heading in one direction, my separation turned it around, and now here I was with a strange naked body next to me. I was completely disoriented. WTF was going on????

It just took a while to transition. You can't expect a completely new dynamic to feel all comfy-cozy immediately. There has been a shift in energies. New sensations, new boundaries, more fully explored connections - it's going to be disorienting! It would be stranger if it was not, I think. And your husband has been transformed by the new dynamic, too. So, it feels like new territory, and it's startling.

I had to allow myself the space to experience the new feelings. But not giving myself those experiences would have robbed me of important realizations I'd made and things I learned about myself. Sure, I have had some periods in the last 18 months or so, where I retreat a little bit to regain my footing, so to speak, but I ever want my life to stagnate again. So I immerse myself in the experience and let myself feel. My sense of you is that you will never do anything without trying to think ahead to all possible ramifications, and this development in your relationships just simply surprised you. It's okay. You don't have to back away from your feelings or try to categorize them so they make sense. Just take a few deep breaths, feel your feet on the ground and the new energy moving through you, and stay aware. You're doing fine.

[AnnabelMore]

It occurs to me that you've mentioned several times at least how reinvigorated your sex life with your husband has been since opening up to intimacy with others. Maybe that's part of why you're feeling less driven to be close to C and L -- because you're getting more of your needs fulfilled within your marriage.

That said, I agree strongly with SG and Nyc. Give it some time and don't jump into any rash decisions before your feelings have a chance to even out. Take each relationship at its own pace. If you need to slow down with one or another to process and sort out what will be most comfortable for both of you, that's perfectly ok.

[rory]

I agree with the others. But I was also wondering if there's any guilt in there, creating confusion? There may or may not be, depending on your personality. I know for me, guilt is a powerful trigger, and I can try to avoid it even without realising it's there. Thus, unless I recognise the guilt, it can affect my judgement. When I notice the guilt, I see it's impact and refuse to act on it, and that's when it looses it's power. Just a thought.

[AnotherConfused]

Forbidden fruit... time to adjust... more fulfillment at home... guilt... wow, it's wonderful having so many perspectives to help me figure this out! I think there is some truth to all of these thoughts.

Having had a few days to digest my encounter with L, I'm coming to the conclusion that curiosity played a big role in my desire for intimacy with him. He's always been the person in my life I can talk most openly with about sex, so we've had years of discussions on the topic, always with that background curiosity of what it would feel like together. The amount of contact we had last Saturday was enough for me to feel like now I know, pretty well, how it would be. And it's not that I don't think it would be great, but I just don't think we'd accomplish anything by going there (or going again to that place of sexual cuddling with limits in place). Instead, it's getting in the way of being able to have him in my life in more meaningful ways, like spending time with my whole family.

L says we can back up, slow down, wait and see, and he'll always be in my life loving me no matter how it manifests. Part of me wants to tell my husband that I plan to go back to just an emotional connection with L, nothing more then a hug and a peck on the cheek in greeting, in hopes it will repair their friendship. Another part of me wants to keep that door open, because I think the freedom, even if I don't act on it, has lifted a huge emotional weight off me.

This heating up of my sex life at home is directly connected to this freedom. Partly because that attention from L and C make me feel so sexy, partly because the knowledge that I can have those other encounters drives my imagination to wild erotic places, partly because I am so grateful and in love with my husband for accommodating me in these matters, partly because my stress load is down, partly because my marriage doesn't feel restrictive any more... all these factors combine to bring us to perhaps the best chapter of our sex lives yet, in almost 14 years together. So on the one hand, I don't have a need to go out and find sexual fulfillment with anyone else, but on the other hand, having that possibility out there is why this is working so well at home.

Guilt... that's there, definitely. My husband has said ok to this, but he doesn't like it, so even though I'm not sneaking and cheating, I still feel selfish. It makes me want to slow things down.

C is coming over in a week. We'll have half a day alone together, and we're leaning towards hiking if the weather cooperates. I think we both want to do non-sexual things in order to build up our friendship, but then if we are out in the woods alone at least we can do some smooching. Then we'll spend the afternoon with my kids as well, and he's staying for dinner when my husband gets home (with one or 2 other friends as hapless emotional buffers). He and my husband are both doing this for my sake -neither one is enthused about being around the other, but I want them to at least know each other a tiny bit. I guess slow and steady is my plan with C, and he is in agreement.

It occurs to me that I've talked (emailed) with L and C both about slowing down or stopping the physical intimacy, and how I feel about it, but I haven't talked to my husband. Should I? Maybe he'd rather not dwell on these things. His DADT attitude makes me feel like he's out of the loop.

[dingedheart]

The reason for my comments was ....the topic heading ,pace of the struggling partner and Ive been in your husband's place in regards to an event.

The pace: it seems like its been a small amount of time since you got the green light and your husband said he didn't want to attend for all the usual reasons. With the limited sex and DADT in place he's constructed a nice little mental box to put this all in...seeing this guy or guy's , having to talk to this guy, seeing you interact, flirty eyes, how you dance with each iother , etc ,etc, forces him to face the reality he's not that special. Or the specialness he thought you 2 had is gone..(his mind of course) If life circumstances where different, kids, house,... or rules of engagement(full piv sex) you'd be taking full advantage and so those images are still active in his head.

From my own experience there was nothing ...NOTHING...that I needed to hear from another guy who's banging my wife. I realized I had nothing to say other than hello and let the conversation start from the other end. I didn't have any real fear that needed calming or some faux reassurances from the guy banging my wife. Small talk seemed equally awkward and stupid. So I went from one of the most out going people to shutting down. Roles reversed lets say you go to his office Christmas party an pick out an attractive women who he's got the exact same relationship parameters as you have...what would go up and say to the women who's being felt up and finger fucked by your husband....awkward right ...oh yeah ..you've known her for a years socially because of the employment history.


It just seem little sexiest (I know I've been accused of that here) that he had to go because you didn't ..want to drive late at night. Solutions....Car pool great idea, take a nap, go to bed the night before a little earlier, don't dance every song, unlike me always the last to leave ....leave a little early, have cup coffee before you take off, etc, etc.

As for people thinking that something inappropriate going on ....isn't that a hair better left unsplit. You are being felt up and fingered by 2 men not your husband. I thought L talked with his son and sort of layout the poly/open marriage idea. So you're worried that the kid will think his dad lied to him and that you're cheating on your husband? ...who care what the kid thinks at this point if you told him the truth.

[nycindie]

The amount of contact we had last Saturday was enough for me to feel like now I know, pretty well, how it would be. And it's not that I don't think it would be great, but I just don't think we'd accomplish anything by going there (or going again to that place of sexual cuddling with limits in place). Instead, it's getting in the way of being able to have him in my life in more meaningful ways, like spending time with my whole family.

... L says we can back up, slow down, wait and see, and he'll always be in my life loving me no matter how it manifests. ... part of me wants to keep that door open, because I think the freedom, even if I don't act on it, has lifted a huge emotional weight off me.

It occurs to me that I've talked (emailed) with L and C both about slowing down or stopping the physical intimacy, and how I feel about it, but I haven't talked to my husband. Should I? Maybe he'd rather not dwell on these things. His DADT attitude makes me feel like he's out of the loop.

I think... your husband stated what he was comfortable with, you agreed, and then he trusted you to use your judgment. I personally don't think it's necessary to keep reporting back to him all the peaks and valleys you go through with your male friends. Your husband might misinterpret your "backing away" a little bit as never going there again - so if the time feels right again at some point to revisit that kind of intimacy with either of them, it could be like a slap to your husband all over again.

You want to leave the door open, just leave it open and stop worrying so much. There is a balance you need to find between being fully honest with him and divulging all details of your other relationships (which also deserve their privacy), and that is a thing your husband has already said he doesn't want to know about. If you feel you must talk to hubby about it, you can say that you want him to know that just because you have his permission doesn't mean it happens every time when you are with the guys, but you appreciate having the freedom. Then he can realize that sometimes you step back from it on your own, but I don't think he needs a detailed report for every step you take.

[dingedheart]

During my own recent holiday party tour I was reminded of one last year and I wondered what happened with the party you were planning to go to. How did it go? Big deal or no big deal?

You can't leave us hanging...

[AnotherConfused]

During my own recent holiday party tour I was reminded of one last year and I wondered what happened with the party you were planning to go to. How did it go? Big deal or no big deal?

You can't leave us hanging...

Oh, it was pretty much no big deal, so I didn't think it merited writing about. I offered to go alone or find another friend to go with, but my husband decided he wanted to go so he could play music. He had a good time, and it was a big crowd so there was no opportunity for drama. I danced just once with L.

When we did dance, L told me which women in the room he was interested in, which is something he's always done because we've been each other's confidantes for ages. Then it hit me that I can't be both lover and confidante. If we're intimate, I want his attention on me. And I'd rather keep what we've always had, that ability to talk to each other about anything. So between that and not wanting to alienate him from my family, I told him the intimacy just isn't worth it for me. At least for now. (I'm still really glad we gave it a try though, because now I don't have to wonder any more.) I told my husband that I really love having that door open but I don't necessarily want to go through it.

I also had my day with C in town, and we did go hiking and have a little coziness out there in the woods, and then some good hanging out with my kids. In talking to my husband the day or two before, he seemed to be pretty tense about having dinner together, so I offered to cancel or move it from our house to a restaurant, but in the end he said he was fine with it, as long as C and I didn't spend the afternoon cooking together as if we two were the hosts. It was a good evening, 6 adults in all, a chance for my husband to see that C was a decent guy, intelligent and interesting, but I get the idea neither of them particularly want to cross paths again, so I won't ask them to. (They'll both be at the same New Year's Eve dance, but in a big crowd.)

All in all everything feels pretty calm and smooth now. I feel really loved and really lucky. No idea where we are all going with this, but the present is happy.

[Magdlyn]

When we did dance, L told me which women in the room he was interested in, which is something he's always done because we've been each other's confidantes for ages. Then it hit me that I can't be both lover and confidante. If we're intimate, I want his attention on me. And I'd rather keep what we've always had, that ability to talk to each other about anything... I told him the intimacy just isn't worth it for me. At least for now.

:(

[AnotherConfused]

:(

Aw, but it doesn't feel sad to me! What felt sad was lying there naked with L that one day, basking in afterglow, and then listening to him talk about his ex-girlfriend. I had to make him change the subject. I've never asked him to change the subject before, in 20 years of friendship. The mantra of our entire relationship is, "Ask me anything, tell me anything." Then I realized I also don't tell him much about C, because he gets jealous (at least that's how it looks to me) and starts to sound judgmental. We had something really unique when we were able to give each other perspective from standing at the edges of each other's lives, but by getting more involved (sexually, romantically) that has been slipping away, and we find ourselves trying to protect each other's feelings by limiting what we say. I already have a fine sex life with my husband, but I need that relationship that L and I have always had, so we are going back (forward) to that. Hugs and kisses and innuendo, and completely uncensored communication.

[nycindie]

...it hit me that I can't be both lover and confidante. If we're intimate, I want his attention on me.
What felt sad was lying there naked with L that one day, basking in afterglow...

I didn't realize you were lovers now. I thought you were keeping your clothes on and not having sex...?

But why do you think you suddenly can't talk to him about others and visa versa now? I wonder why sharing your bodies makes it more difficult to be open in your verbal communications. I see sex as a form of communication, and I would think the physical intimacy would have brought you closer in all ways. Are you compartmentalizing the sexual dynamic between you, for some reason? How about examining why you "can't be both lover and confidante" instead of just putting a halt to it? Seems like a good opportunity to learn more about yourself and nurture deeper paths to intimacy and self-growth to me.

[AnotherConfused]

I didn't realize you were lovers now. I thought you were keeping your clothes on and not having sex...? But why do you think you can't talk to him about others and visa versa?

What my husband asked for was no penetrative or oral sex outside marriage, so L and I had a sort of play day where we did get very sexual within those boundaries. I'm sure we could work through feelings to make it more comfortable to keep having that, but it doesn't feel worth it to me. It dampened his relationship with my husband, and it made me uneasy.

L has had sex with dozens and dozens of women, to the point where I felt like I was moving from this very special place in his life towards a very well worn common one. Previously, I've loved hearing about his sexual experiences and the insights he has from his large "sample size," telling me all about how women reach orgasms in various ways and so forth. But I don't like being one of those women, it turns out. Maybe that will change someday but right now I'm totally content with what we had before, and he is too. In fact, I don't think it was too great for him, when he doesn't have any regular sex partner, to spend all that time being aroused with only hands for satisfaction. (Even if we did get him there 3 times, which surprised him a bit since he's 67.)

C was the one I had no plans to get naked with. We had that clumsy encounter in his car, and then I felt uncomfortable with that much intimacy given that he rarely has time for me and we haven't had too much opportunity to grow our relationship outside emails. When I explained how I felt he said he had not adjusted his lifestyle to reflect how important I've become to him. Since then we've had nearly daily emails, frequent online chats, and he arranged a full day visit. We are attending a dance weekend together in February, and I'm thinking by then I'll be wanting a little more with him. Although there is always the possibility that he'll find a "real" girlfriend (he wants a monogamous relationship that includes sex, and I can't offer that) and then I'll just be... an ex-not-girlfriend? This also makes me uneasy, knowing I'll get "dumped" eventually. I'm really into him.

On the lighter side, last night I was out dancing and I had this great waltz that made me think of polyamory. I danced with two men who skillfully handed me back and forth in a series of intricate steps. There was constant nonverbal communication between each of us to make it seamless and smooth. One would raise his arm to twirl me under and the other would step in so I'd emerge into his arms, then spin around to be handed back to the first. I felt all this care and attention directed towards me, but also fantastic respect between the men, who were each making sure the other was included with the right amount of space and timing to work for all of us. Ah, I wish love could be learned as easily as waltzing! (Granted, it was a lot more mental and physical effort than dancing with just one partner at a time.)

[dingedheart]

so you didn't like hearing about women in the room he had an interest in or the sex talk about his ex-girlfriend during afterglow period....this made you feel less special. But you have or had three romantic and physical relationships at the time. Shouldn't be the same for them? Isn't your husband your confidant or you his? Do you think that will then change as a result?

[AnotherConfused]

so you didn't like hearing about women in the room he had an interest in or the sex talk about his ex-girlfriend during afterglow period....this made you feel less special. But you have or had three romantic and physical relationships at the time. Shouldn't be the same for them? Isn't your husband your confidant or you his? Do you think that will then change as a result?

My husband and I share a lot with each other, but I really can't confide in him my feelings, big or small, about other men. I tell him just enough so that I don't feel like I'm hiding something from him, but, "Wow, that guy over there is hot!" is more the comment I would make to a female friend, not to my husband. If he were the kind of man who was turned on by that kind of conversation, you bet I'd tell him, but he's not. He doesn't want to hear it.

L and I have a long history of sharing that kind of talk with each other. He encouraged me in my pursuit of various men when I was single, and I've been giving him relationship advice and encouragement since his divorce. I don't think this would work if we'd ever been potential partners to each other. And it didn't work when we were in bed together. I don't think it has anything to do with how many partners any of us have. I don't want any lovers telling me about their attraction to other women, and they don't apparently want to hear about mine to other men. What L said to me yesterday was, "If I can't tell you, who am I going to tell?" and we knew we'd rather be confidantes than lovers.

I didn't feel less special when L talked about his ex girlfriend. I felt less special when I felt myself shifting from confidante to lover. He could have sex with just about anyone (and has), but I'm the one he tells all his secrets to, and I want to keep that role.

[dingedheart]

First let me say I'm glad the party was no big deal, that's good.

And I didn't realize your use of confidante had such a narrow and focused meaning.

I thought that this whole journey started because after years of friendship fueled by intimate touching, (dance and kissing ) erotic stories, L's vocal lustful desires, some romantic deficiencies on the part of hubs you felt starved for a greater an more intimate connection to these men. (the sex part) The corner stone of your argument is or was to be free to experience such connections and you were willing to risk your marriage to get that. After a few uncomfortable encounters in which other women are mentioned you want to go back to friends status with L. But you told me once that building their sexual confidence was a great turn on for you...how would you get turned on if they never told you of these desires?
And maybe they or he was trying to turn you on.

What does hubs know of this? what his reaction

[AnotherConfused]

I thought that this whole journey started because after years of friendship fueled by intimate touching, (dance and kissing ) erotic stories, L's vocal lustful desires, some romantic deficiencies on the part of hubs you felt starved for a greater an more intimate connection to these men. (the sex part) The corner stone of your argument is or was to be free to experience such connections and you were willing to risk your marriage to get that. After a few uncomfortable encounters in which other women are mentioned you want to go back to friends status with L. But you told me once that building their sexual confidence was a great turn on for you...how would you get turned on if they never told you of these desires?
And maybe they or he was trying to turn you on.

What does hubs know of this? what his reaction

I don't know if it's really as complex as all this. There always has been and likely always will be a strong sexual attraction aspect to my relationship with L. I am really glad I had the chance to explore that, after 20 years of wondering how it would feel. Now I know that yes, he knows his way around a woman, and is very well endowed, and looks exquisitely beautiful during orgasms, and has unbelievably smooth soft skin. I also know that I'm more comfortable in my previous role in his life, when he could be closer to my husband and kids, and I could comfortably listen to him talk about whatever the heck he wants to talk about. Is this wrong in any way? We're both happy with it.

My husband knows that for now I'm not interested in continuing physical intimacy with L, but he's not interested in the details. I told him I like having that door open though. It feels way different making this choice for myself, based on what feels best between L and me, than it did when we withheld intimacy only for my husband's sake. Just as I love being able to let things unfold with C at a pace that is comfortable for my relationship with him, rather than just feeling like we are bumping up against my husband's boundaries.

I guess you could say that I wasn't risking my marriage for a chance to get physical with L or C. I tried to fix a painful marriage by asking for the freedom to make my own choices in my other relationships. And it worked. My marriage is worlds better now (and not just for me).

[SNeacail]

Sometimes having the freedom to flirt and just be yourself without having to worry about what is "appropriate" behavior makes all the difference. Why would it be wrong if it works for both of you?

[AnotherConfused]

Oh wow, they're ALL coming to the same New Year's Eve dance tomorrow! I'm not sure if I should be excited or worried. I was planning it as a date with my husband, but L's daughter plays in one of the bands so she talked him into coming, and C heard about it from mutual dance friends and decided to make the trip. My husband looked a little alarmed when I told him. At least at dances it's acceptable to devote all one's attention to one partner at a time, so I will do that and possibly have quite an ecstatic night.

[dingedheart]

You used said you were will to risk your marriage to have this greater connection. I thought you used the word starved to describe what you needed. You think its simpler than it appears or I stated...how so? I guess I'll have to reread this thread from the beginning.:)

Nothing wrong if everyone's happy.

My thoughts come from a place of fundamental fairness. And with that mindset reading that you got uncomfortable at the sight, suggestion, and discussion of other women put a highlight on the word special or less special.
I was thinking how would each of them plug special or less special to describe this dynamic.

The reason I asked about hubs reaction was I could see many conflicting emotions and thoughts if this were to happen to me. Just wondered about his take.

Did you describe your marriage as painful to your husband? God if anyone had directly told me that I would gladly release them from that union. I guess someone did indirectly tell me that and now seems to have reversed their position.

Have fun at the party I'm sure everything will be fine :D

[nycindie]

Oh wow, they're ALL coming to the same New Year's Eve dance tomorrow! I'm not sure if I should be excited or worried. I was planning it as a date with my husband, but L's daughter plays in one of the bands so she talked him into coming, and C heard about it from mutual dance friends and decided to make the trip. My husband looked a little alarmed when I told him. At least at dances it's acceptable to devote all one's attention to one partner at a time, so I will do that and possibly have quite an ecstatic night.
They are still your friends, the friends you have always had. You don't have to act any differently. Just because there is an added element of more intimacy with them doesn't mean you have to let it weird you out. I think the problem here is still your husband's feelings about how close you are to them. He has allowed it but still judges it and thinks it is wrong, but you don't have to let that make you nervous or feel like you're doing anything wrong. Don't be so afraid! Enjoy the attention and closeness you have with all your men!

[AnotherConfused]

Ouch, tonight didn't go well at all! We were at a dance hall with 3 floors of dancing, and my husband decided to spend some of his time on a different floor from me, where he could do more mellow dancing. I asked him to join me on the main floor before midnight.

At 11:45 they announced it was the second-to-last dance before midnight, so I asked C to dance. Before the band started, my husband walked up, looking upset, and said he wanted to do the next dance with me. I said of course. I had a good dance with C, wished him a happy new year, then found my husband, who launched into an angry tirade about how I should have been with him since 11:45. Not just the last dance before midnight, but the 15 minutes before midnight. (For the kind of dancing we do, it is common practice to change partners for each dance.)

I told him that wasn't what I thought we'd planned, but that we were doing the last dance. He continued to try to convince me that I had done something wrong. I told him it didn't feel like he actually wanted to be happily enjoying dancing with me, but rather that he was trying to stake some kind of claim. So he said forget it, everything was ok, but I was too hurt to enjoy the dance, and when midnight came and went we were still mad.

Now it's past 3am and I am not even able to be in the same bed with him. He has accused me of not caring about him, of not wanting to make him happy, of not wanting to dance with him as much as I wanted to dance with C. (Thank god L changed plans last minute and didn't make it.) He said I danced with C at least 6 or 8 times, when it was really only 3. He said if he hadn't come up to me when he did, I would probably have danced with C until midnight, and C would have expected a midnight kiss since he came without a date. It's like he's making up a version of reality that turns me into a bad wife, but it's not based on fact. So how can I make it right?

Ironically when I asked C for that dance, I'd actually hoped to ask the woman who had been dancing with him before that. She's someone I really like (friend-wise). But she moved off before I could get to her, so I asked C. Never realizing I was breaking my husband's unwritten 15-minutes-before-midnight rule.

I'm so tired. I just wanted to go out and have fun. And up until almost midnight, I did have fun. It hurts that the only bad part of the night was with my husband. I work so hard on this, and it seems to make no difference. Tonight, I failed.

[NovemberRain]

umm, please forgive me, I know I'm new here and stuff...

But, um, how is it *your* failure? I can't possibly see that you have failed when it was his unspoken expectation that upset him.

Imagine you're 12, and you are on the playground. You're happily playing jacks, when your friends come up and say, 'hay AC, you're not being a good friend, you should have been playing fooshinball with us' Would that make you feel like a failure? You didn't know they wanted you to play, and you have no earthly idea what fooshinball might be. Not your failure.

Just food for thought. I'm still awake cuz my night wasn't exactly ideal either. Not horrible, just less than I desired.

[Sonic]

Oh gosh, that sounds so familiar. I got the same treatment from my partner a little while ago. Accusing me of being selfish when I broke some unwritten rule that only existed in his mind.

Your husband is struggling with this, obviously. You have a lot of work ahead of you.

But don't internalize his accusations. You didn't do anything wrong.

He is expressing some deeper feeling of hurt and jealousy that is only triggered by your behavior. I believe that you could behave like a nun and still get the accusations, because the reason behind him accusing you has nothing to do with your behavior. Seriously.

[Phy]

I have to second NovemberRain, this wasn't your fault.

Your husband has to learn to ask for what he wants. If he is unsatisfied with you/your behavior or the situation at hand he has to get his act together and open his mouth. You aren't a mind-reader or some kind of empathetic person who is able to read minds. And you will make this worse if you start to search for faults in your behavior, this will make him feel justified for being upset while he was just coping really badly because of his own problems.

He needs to see that if he wants things to go a special way, he needs to clarify what he imagined to happen and how. If he was unable to predict beforehand that this or that will upset him, he needs to own his emotions and stop blaming you for doing something that felt natural for you and was an expression fo your wishes. You really need to talk about this problem, but not only about the things that happened that night but about the problems that are behind those actions/reactions.

Good luck and I am sorry that your night became so complicated in the end.

[AnotherConfused]

I don't really think I was at fault, NovemberRain, but my husband sure wants me to think so. Apparently he thinks I should have wanted to dance the last 15 minutes before midnight with him, and the fact that I hadn't looked around to see if he was in the room yet before I asked C to dance was a sign I really don't care about him. He seems to think the room was full of couples seeking out their sweethearts at two dances before midnight, and I was the only wife in the room who wasn't bothering to look for her husband.

I keep saying, "I can't meet your expectations if I don't know what they are," and he keeps saying, "Any reasonable person would have understood that we should be together for the 15 minutes before midnight." Plus, he's claiming to have taken the high road by letting me have that dance with C, because he says if I'd been with anyone else he would have asked them to step aside, but he didn't because of my feelings for C. If he'd asked someone I was partnered with to step aside, I would have been horrified. Nobody does that.

Sonic, Phy, I agree there must be some deeper issues behind this, but I don't know how to get past where we are right now to find them. He seems to be feeling like I don't make him feel special enough. I don't know how to do that. I mean, I really think I try my best. Especially the past few weeks since we set clear ground rules for my relationships with C and L -I've made sure to devote lots more attention to my husband, and heated up our sex life, and poured more time and energy into our family, to make sure he's not short-changed. But fighting like this, I don't want to sleep with him, or have sex with him, or dance with him, or anything else.

[Phy]

Honestly, nothing you will do at the moment can please him as it seems. Stop making this your problem, at least for the moment. As you describe it, he won't be up for any agreement. What is a 'reasonable person'? As long as he isn't able to see that he is shaping a world that is only understandable from his point of view, but is expecting you to exactly know what is going on in his head, you won't move one inch.

If he does things that make him uncomfortable, he has to see that it was HIS choice to do so and that it is highly unreasonable to expect you to eat humble pie because of his generosity when you don't even know that this was bothering him. Again the mind-reader-problem and again something that falls within his remit. He needs to see that you can only work on his problems when you know what they are.

If he feels that you don't make him feel special enough, you yourself say that you do all that you can think of, it's again something he needs to get across to in regard to why this is the case and how you could be able to change it. The only person that is able to tell you about that is him alone. You have done all you could.

I am sorry that you have such a hard time and I know that this seems really difficult right know to solve this, but I hope that you can filter down to him that he needs to do some introspection to give you a chance to be able to meet his needs in the future.

[nycindie]

I remember having an argument with my husband once, early in our relationship. We hadn't been married very long at that point. He was angry and upset about something I wore (!). He felt that it reflected poorly on him, as his wife, and he was clearly and visibly upset, heated up, wanting a fight. He seemed to expect something from me to either justify his upset or make it go away. Basically to conform to an idea he had about proper behavior from me.

I responded by calmly telling him that nothing I could do or say at that moment would change how he feels, that it was his responsibility to manage his emotions, and that I wouldn't get into a conversation about it while he was so hopping mad. When he was ready to discuss things calmly I would be there, but not before. He came back later and apologized because in all his stewing he realized that what he was upset about was coming from his opinions and expectations about "a wife" rather than anything about me as a person. And when he realized I wasn't going to fight with him because I wanted to work on things practically instead, it was like an epiphany to him (his ex constantly fought with him).

I hope you and your husband can discuss things rationally -- but for any progress to be made, he has to realize that you are not hurting him. He is choosing to feel hurt over imagined slights and that is where his self-work should begin.

[Sonic]

I don't really think I was at fault, NovemberRain, but my husband sure wants me to think so. Apparently he thinks I should have wanted to dance the last 15 minutes before midnight with him, and the fact that I hadn't looked around to see if he was in the room yet before I asked C to dance was a sign I really don't care about him. He seems to think the room was full of couples seeking out their sweethearts at two dances before midnight, and I was the only wife in the room who wasn't bothering to look for her husband.

I keep saying, "I can't meet your expectations if I don't know what they are," and he keeps saying, "Any reasonable person would have understood that we should be together for the 15 minutes before midnight."

Oh this sounds so familiar. I'm sorry you are struggling with the same problems :(

One thing that helped in my situation (at least a bit), was figuring out our different languages of love. http://www.5lovelanguages.com/learn-the-languages/the-five-love-languages/ (I'm not promoting the book)

Sorry, I haven't read the whole topic so I don't know if this has been discussed before.

In any case, if you speak different love languages, you can do as much as ever to make your husband feel special and yet he might not, if you aren't speaking the same language.

Like, I like receiving gifts, but he couldn't care less. So I could shower him with gifts and it wouldn't help one bit. However, he likes quality time, so I can give him this and make him feel valued.

Maybe opening the discussion about this would make him realize that you are not willingly neglecting him?

[dingedheart]

Sounds like a great event ...sorry about the ending. I know nothing of the dance world, is it normal to have several floors going at once. I assume each floor had a theme or music style. Was it common for him to go to that style and you to go to where you spent the night? Or was he trying to avoid seeing you with C. Is it possible that he popped in from time to time and every time he did he saw the to of you together just out of coincidence ? I picture this like a large hotel with ball rooms across the hall from one another. Did you ever seek him out during the evening to dance with him or go check in with him? ...outside of asking him to come find you just before midnight to catch the last dance and the kiss?

The 11:45 thing sounds a lot like PMS...just emotions spilling out...Men have to learn early on these type out bursts are going to happen ...they're not going to make sense a percentage of the time. I'd look at it like that and forget it.

[AnotherConfused]

We hashed this all out for several hours yesterday. Why does love have to complicate things so much? It seems like he was living in another world that night at the dance, interpreting all sorts of things in the worst possible light, so that missing that second-to-last dance with me seemed like the final slap in his face.

For example, he determined that my smile was brighter when I danced with C than when I danced with him. I went upstairs to dance with him a few times, but instead of his usual style of dancing with me, which is close, eye to eye, and communicative, he was trying all these flashy steps and huge movements and spinning me round and round in a really packed crowd, apparently because someone had told him he was a good dancer and someone else had told him she liked his energy and someone else had told him the correct frame involved looking beyond your partner's shoulder (rather than in your wife's eyes?). So I came along and asked him not to spin so much, it was making me nauseous, and that I couldn't follow his random footwork, and some other comments along those lines, and totally offended him. He figured I like dancing with everyone else but him. (I also asked C to spin me less, when I started to get nauseous at one point with him.)

Apparently he also happened to be in the main hall for all 3 times I danced with C, which led him to the conclusion I'd been dancing with him all night. (He did know I had only danced once with him in the whole first half of the night, though, so it was still not a logical conclusion if you ask me.) He concluded from my asking C for the second-to-last dance before midnight that C and I had prearranged that so we could be together as close to midnight as possible, and he concluded from the post-dance hug (something I do with most partners, something very common in this crowd) that C and I were kissing. I have explicitly promised not to kiss C in public. When I left our argument after midnight and went to chat with other people, he concluded that I was saying bad things about him. When I went alone to get my coat and street shoes after the dance, and he later found his coat on the floor, he concluded I had dumped his coat on the floor on purpose. It just seems like I could do no right, and was guilty of all sorts of imagined wrongs.

On the plus side, he had very good things to say about the experience of L's party a couple of weeks back, in contrast. He thought that L showed a lot of integrity in his interactions with him and with me that night. We had gone to great pains to make sure we barely spoke to each other that night, and to only dance together once. I guess in the future that's what I'll need to do with C -treat him with more distance than I normally would, if my husband is present. Lesson learned.

[AnnabelMore]

So, does he at least understand that he was being irrational?

[AnotherConfused]

So, does he at least understand that he was being irrational?

No. He concedes that he jumped to some wrong conclusions, but thinks he was using sound logic to reach them. And he still thinks I was very much in the wrong for not looking for him for that dance. Bottom line, I guess he doesn't feel like I want to be with him as much as he wants to be with me. And right now, I don't. But when we're not fighting I do, and I don't know how to show it any better than I have been.

[Phy]

Sorry to say this, but it sounds like the wrong person learned the wrong lesson here ... This is really a case of perseverance that goes in a completely unhealthy direction. He needs to wake up, before he is pushing you too far away with this behavior.

And you shouldn't support this development by yielding under the pressure he is putting onto you. If there is any chance for him to see what is going on here, it will be by your unwavering refusal to take the blame and make him search for more appropriate explanation for what has gone wrong. When you buckle he doesn't have a reason to waste any thought on the matter now or in the future.

I know that this is easier said than done and I am sorry that this situation is so unpleasant, but I see a certain danger of this developing into a pattern that will ruin your relationship in the long run.

[SNeacail]

At such an events, where my husband and I tend to seperate and go our own ways, I go out of my way to schedule ahead of time, regular times to check in with each other (at least once an hour). I'm the one that will get paranoid or will find a corner to brood in and feel neglected if I don't take a few minutes every so often to at least talk to my husband.

[dingedheart]

where did she buckle? ...By having that extra dance she had planned with C. I didn't think she admit wrong doing at all.

Who knows how long he watched them dance and talk together...and the looks exchanged. And then a different energy (possibly just in his mind ) occurred when they were together. Here's where you could get into obligatory actions. Or that feeling. And then the spiral starts.

Are these dance events usually set up with multi floors going at once? Did he do what he'd normally does in terms of music and style. Did you? Did you years ago split up at these things.

[nycindie]

Are these dance events usually set up with multi floors going at once? Did he do what he'd normally does in terms of music and style. Did you? Did you years ago split up at these things.

Partner dancing is like a subculture with its own set of norms. To me, how they went about it that night sounds quite common for that activity.

[Magdlyn]

Wow. I am sorry, but all these accusations are horrible and triggering for me, because my ex used to be the same way. And we weren't poly. His low self esteem led him to all kinds of similar paranoid conclusions. Your smile was brighter? You let C spin you more? You mustve been talking about him after your argument? You must've thrown his coat on the floor???

Paranoid BS. He is projecting his worst fears of being replaced onto you, imagining you as this vindictive hyper-sexual devious monster, who must be laughing at him behind his back.

Seriously, this man seems way too strange and jealous to ever be comfortable with you AROUND other men, period, much less having any very limited sexual contact with any. Dancing itself is too much for him.

I'd say your being poly when married to him is a lost cause. No wonder you're pissed and don't want to talk to him.

[nycindie]

Seriously, this man seems way too strange and jealous to ever be comfortable with you AROUND other men, period, much less having any very limited sexual contact with any. Dancing itself is too much for him.

I'd say your being poly when married to him is a lost cause. No wonder you're pissed and don't want to talk to him.

I think he would be okay with her dancing with other men, if they are not the men that she specifically asked for permission to have more than a friendship with. It seems to me that that knowledge about who she was dancing with is what fueled his paranoia.

And that, AC, is very revealing about his true feelings regarding your friendships with your "other men." I think that, even though he has "allowed" for you to have greater intimacy with your male friends, there is a disdain he holds about it, and quite probably a sense that you are basically a bad person, dirty, flawed beyond reason, and a terrible wife for wanting someone other than husband in an intimate way. He will always hold this deep-seated resentment and judgment about you no matter how much love and attention you give him and your children. That's how I see it.

When couples open up their relationships to poly, there are inevitable hurdles to get past in all of them. So don't get discouraged or think that you failed. You didn't marry a bad man. I am certain he is a good person in many, many ways and you love him. However, you married a deeply prejudiced, sexist man so ingrained in his cultural upbringing, to such a degree that I don't think he will ever get past it it enough for you to be happy or fulfilled within his parameters. He will always be disappointed and view a part of you, your poly-ness, with disgust. Can you live with that?

[AnotherConfused]

The weird thing is, my husband is usually not a jealous person at all. Most weeks I go out dancing 2 or 3 nights without him, and he babysits the kids. He didn't mind my going to a weekend dance camp with C in September, and he mostly didn't mind my spending a recent Saturday with L. He doesn't at all mind when C comes to town and we hang out during the day, when my husband is at work and the kids are at school, because he doesn't feel like I am neglecting anyone.

New year's eve was just out of the blue strange. It didn't seem like the same guy I married. He didn't act like usual, dance like usual... I like the PMS thought, dingedheart. Maybe it was just a bad mood. He had been sick for a couple of days beforehand.

The multiple level dance thing was just for the holiday, so we didn't have any explicit agreement for how to handle that as a couple. I mostly wanted the type of dancing on the main floor, and he wasn't feeling 100% after being sick so he spent more time upstairs where there were chairs around the edges of the room and the dancing was more sedate. We each went back and forth a couple of times. The last time I danced with him upstairs, I asked him to come down before midnight. Other than that we didn't make any arrangements together.

It's true, NYC, he reacted that way because deep down he's not comfortable with the nature of my relationship with C. Back to the original title of my thread, we are trying to find the path where we are each struggling the least. He still struggles with sharing me, and I still struggle with limits on the time I spend with the men I love. But we are both willing to go through that struggle in order to be together.

I think he does believe polyamory is immoral. Unfortunately, all his ideas about relationships are based on what he perceives other people are doing, and since he has never been in a relationship or had sex with anyone but me, he has no clue what goes on behind the closed doors of other couples' lives. As far as he can see, I'm the only person (outside of porn movies, I guess) who has sexual fantasies, or uses sex toys. He never hears our friends talking about them, or his family. So between my libido and my interest in other men, I'm really not what he expected in a wife. It's disheartening.

This will all work out. It always does.

[nycindie]

New year's eve was just out of the blue strange. It didn't seem like the same guy I married. He didn't act like usual, dance like usual...

Hmm, another possibility comes to my mind. Do you think he got into any conversations or confided/alluded to/asked questions with anyone about your arrangement, and was told something that painted it more negatively than before? Very often, I find, when there is a visible shift in attitude or approach, it often comes from an outside influence, even sometimes just a passing comment made by someone that feeds already raw or conflicted feelings about something.

Oh, and maybe you ought to get all your friends in a conversation about sex and relationships sometime! He could do well to see other perspectives from people he knows.

[AnotherConfused]

Hmm, another possibility comes to my mind. Do you think he got into any conversations or confided/alluded to/asked questions with anyone about your arrangement, and was told something that painted it more negatively than before? Very often, I find, when there is a visible shift in attitude or approach, it often comes from an outside influence, even sometimes just a passing comment made by someone that feeds already raw or conflicted feelings about something..

Wow, you're good! As he approached me for the second-to-last dance, trying to get my attention, not catching my eye and watching me walk up to C and ask him to dance, someone said, "Looks like your wife stood you up!" I'm sure the comment was meant in jest, since it's a very friendly community, but he took it seriously and felt humiliated.

[Phy]

where did she buckle? ...By having that extra dance she had planned with C. I didn't think she admit wrong doing at all.


I read her 'lesson learned' comment that way. Because of his incapability to see where his problems lie and her willingness to admit that she should have handled the situation differently and all this based on his assumptions of what she should have known as a 'reasonable person'. As I stated I see the possibility of a behavioral pattern developing at this point if she doesn't make him look closer at what was going on there in his head, why it is unreasonable to assume that she could have known in any way what he was expecting. By not giving in to his reasoning I saw the only way to avoid this negativ circle from getting started.

[AnnabelMore]

I was once involved with a man who would act very distant and iritable when he was sick, he didn't seem to recognize this pattern and took his feelings during those times seriously.

I agree with Phy that it's important that you not admit fault here. You can agree to change your behavior but it's an important distinction that you're doing it to accommodate this problem he's having versus doing it because you were wrong and callous at NYE. You didn't do anything wrong.

[nycindie]

Wow, you're good! As he approached me for the second-to-last dance, trying to get my attention, not catching my eye and watching me walk up to C and ask him to dance, someone said, "Looks like your wife stood you up!" I'm sure the comment was meant in jest, since it's a very friendly community, but he took it seriously and felt humiliated.

Ahh, people don't realize what harm such remarks can be. It is like a turd in the punch bowl - it poisons everything. That's why I used to tell people to stop sending me those stupid email jokes about marriage and how dumb husbands are, etc., because I didn't want that kind of energy coming at me and affecting my relationship. Saying something like that is often all that is needed for someone who is struggling to suddenly see a relationship or situation in a very negative light. Maybe eventually he will calm down and start to see how his discomfort with the whole thing was rocked by a silly comment. I think he needs to be more grounded in his trust in you.

[AnotherConfused]

Thanks. I've actually been repeating to him again and again, "I didn't do anything wrong." The only bit he'll agree with is that C didn't do anything wrong.

The lesson I think I've learned here, is that we need to be more explicit in our expectations of each other, and that he is really sensitive to seeing me with C. It didn't seem that way at our dinner party mid-December, but I think dancing just provides a lot more close one-on-one moments, so I was there in C's arms, looking into his eyes and smiling giddily. Of course, I was doing the same with a lot of other men that night, but my husband didn't read the signals the same way. It actually was different; when I look in C's eyes it really is intimate. It seems fair enough to keep that under wraps if my husband is watching.

So I appreciate the concern, Phy and AnnabelMore, but I think I'm holding to my guns here. I don't think I did anything wrong, I do think he got waaaaay carried away, but I'm going to try to prevent this from happening again by being more aware of his triggers and more explicit with our expectations. Fair enough?

[AnotherConfused]

Ahh, people don't realize what harm such remarks can be.
...
I think he needs to be more grounded in his trust in you.

So true.

How is he going to be more grounded in his trust, though? This is the crux of it. I mean, his assuming that the hug he witnessed from a distance included a kiss, was an assumption that I was directly violating one of his most explicit requests, that C and I not kiss in front of other people. And he didn't then say, "It looked like you could have been kissing. Were you?" He said, "I saw you kissing." Which tells me he doesn't trust me at all.

*sigh* Why would I go to all the trouble of bringing up polyamory and doing all this work, for two years, to make it work for us in the least painful way possible, if I were not intending to be honest? It would have been so much easier just to have affairs!

[dingedheart]

I really can't believe some of the responses.

The "struggling mono " husband who ( recently) agreed to his wife's poly exploration finds out that his New Years eve plans are going to include one or of both of the new guys, and instead of panic and bowing out he agrees to go. No credit given. We know that the main floor was where AC wanted to dance ...(at least that night). Normal doesn't really apply because 3 separate floors with different themes didn't happen before. And no detail on dance style preferences is given. He on the other hand, after coming off an illness opted for the floor that had chairs and a more sedate music or dancing style. My gut tells me he did so to avoid seeing exactly what he ended up seeing entwined partners and giddy smiles every time he popped by to check in.

What seems very clear is the "struggling husband" because of the forced circumstance (large public venue ...stress of being embarrassed or humiliated) is hypersensitive to everything. EVERYTHING.

Because of the last few joint encounters and mix of NRE, AC is more relaxed or oblivious to hubs hypersensitive state.

In this state he notices with in the first half of the evening the number of times you danced with C verses him. He may have been watching the spinning you did with C but when he did it he was told to slow down or stop...not know C had been told the same thing. He notices the giddy smile and energy.

All in all he plastered a smile on his face and soldiered on. No credit given.

Then 11:45 the dam broke. He had the romantic illusion that his wife..the person he's doing all this for, would want to spend the last 15 minutes of this year focused on him. Maybe he had the silly idea you would surprise him and come find him and be with him, focused on him the last hour or half hour, however as the clock ticked down that didn't happen. He got to the main floor 11:45 however a couple a minutes to late....gets the comment about being stood up...things devolve from there.

All those tightly packed emotions spill out...in so he exaggerates, and extrapolates and got wrong some of the facts. You of course did nothing wrong and feel attacked and insulted by a crazy person. Points taken away.

If he didn't before I think he now places different meanings to words an actions.

Just out of curiosity who's the better dancer of these men ....how would you rate all their dancing skills? or partner skills.

The last 15-30 min had a meaning to him that even he might not been aware of at the beginning of the night it just evolved as the night devolved. Just showing up at 11:56 and 30secs to share a kiss had in his mind a completely different feeling and meaning.

Lessons learned...I'm sure he learned plenty.

[nycindie]

Dinged, AC's other guys are friends her husband has known for years, and I believe they have all attended parties and dances together before. I think you are misinterpreting some things, though I also think it is valuable for AC to see your perspective. However, do you not see that her husband blew things way out of proportion?

He is overly sensitive about his wife's friendships with these men, because he's not willing to do the work to understand and deal with his feelings about it. He has told her what his boundaries are, she has agreed, and has been totally ethical and considerate of him but he doesn't want to know anything more about what she does with them, and yet won't let himself trust her. He struggles because he doesn't want to address it any further and stews about it in his own mind, judges her, and feels that what she wants is shameful. He is from another culture, which influences him here, but that doesn't absolve his responsibility to handle his own emotions. There was a miscommunication and many bizarre assumptions on his part. A dance only lasts about four or five minutes, why would he think she wasn't going to be with him for the last one? He is irrational about this. If it was anyone else she was dancing with at 11:45, I'm sure he wouldn't have blown up at her.

I asked him to join me on the main floor before midnight.

At 11:45 they announced it was the second-to-last dance before midnight, so I asked C to dance. Before the band started, my husband walked up, looking upset, and said he wanted to do the next dance with me. I said of course. I had a good dance with C, wished him a happy new year, then found my husband, who launched into an angry tirade about how I should have been with him since 11:45. Not just the last dance before midnight, but the 15 minutes before midnight. (For the kind of dancing we do, it is common practice to change partners for each dance.)

I told him that wasn't what I thought we'd planned, but that we were doing the last dance. He continued to try to convince me that I had done something wrong. I told him it didn't feel like he actually wanted to be happily enjoying dancing with me, but rather that he was trying to stake some kind of claim. ...

He has accused me of not caring about him, of not wanting to make him happy, of not wanting to dance with him as much as I wanted to dance with C. (Thank god L changed plans last minute and didn't make it.) He said I danced with C at least 6 or 8 times, when it was really only 3. He said if he hadn't come up to me when he did, I would probably have danced with C until midnight, and C would have expected a midnight kiss since he came without a date. It's like he's making up a version of reality that turns me into a bad wife, but it's not based on fact. So how can I make it right?

Ironically when I asked C for that dance, I'd actually hoped to ask the woman who had been dancing with him before that. She's someone I really like (friend-wise). But she moved off before I could get to her, so I asked C. Never realizing I was breaking my husband's unwritten 15-minutes-before-midnight rule.

[dingedheart]

I know you think I'm talking out my ass ....but I was dumped into this type of situation.

I do realize they have all know each other for years...how is that relevant. What things did I misinterpret?

I said HYPER sensitive....overly ...whats the difference. I think I used the stronger word. If not insert the strongest word. I said emotion spill ..like PMS. What don't I get?

This is a relatively new for him ( meaning since the sexual contact started) re-frame old dynamic. Lets not forget this happen with his main social hobby. Please correct that if that's wrong. It could change his view or desire to participate in the hobby....has anyone added that into this mix.

This isn't like bowling or darts...this is intimate, has intimate contact...in his mind this could be like watching them make love.

And how many struggling mono's stories do you see where all the participants have the same shared hobby. Where's Sage?...little help please.

Bottom line ...I Give HIM ....A for going, B or B- for conduct prior to 11:45 ( really subjective here my gut say A- but I'm down grading out of fairness)
D or F for the incident in question. C's and D's for the ride home trying to articulate his position. Some think he failed...I think he's trying and had bad night. I think his continued trying should speak for more than any 15 min minute block of time.

[AnotherConfused]

All I ask from my husband is that we communicate openly. Two weeks before, we had a dinner party that included C. I offered to cancel, I offered to move it out of our house to a restaurant, but my husband said he was totally fine with it, and it seemed he was. Given that, how was I to guess that two weeks later he'd be uncomfortable being in a venue with hundreds of people, including C? He never told me. He never asked if we could change plans, or if I could not dance with C, or in any other way indicated that I shouldn't treat C just as I do all my other favorite dance partners, and that includes smiling, twirling, and enjoying the dance. I do this every week. If he doesn't tell me he's suddenly uncomfortable with it, how should I guess?

If he had given me any indication that he was having trouble seeing me with C, or that he wanted more time with me, or that he wished I would spend more time upstairs with him... I would have been able to work it out. In fact, we started out on the main floor together and I asked if he'd like us to both go upstairs, and he said to wait until the break between bands. He then went up without me, while I was dancing, leading me to believe he was comfortable with us drifting between floors separately, on our own. And I did go up and dance with him up there, several times. I would not have gone up to look for him before midnight, because we agreed to meet downstairs.

Incidentally, I asked a friend when I was out dancing last night whether he thought "two more dances until midnight" announced at 11:45 New Year's Eve meant everyone should find their significant other, or whether it might be acceptable to dance with someone else for one more dance first, or whether he thought there was room for interpretation. He said it was definitely up to interpretation. He also said his wife danced the last dance of the night with another man, and he was glad to see her enjoying it.

When it comes down to it, I don't feel like my husband wants so much to see me happy and to be happy. I feel like he wants to take what he feels entitled to. In fact, he said those last 15 minutes were his entitlement. I really don't want to feel owned. If he had framed this whole thing as, "I'm so sad we only had 5 minutes together before midnight, because I really had looked forward to having more time with you in 2011 and to dancing with you because I love you so much," it might not have upset me. Instead I felt like a toy, and he was a toddler screaming, "Mine!"

I'm not sure how it's relevant, dingedheart, but my husband is by far the better dancer. And dancing is not really his hobby. He wouldn't dance at all if I didn't ask him to. I'm the one who needs to dance regularly in order to be happy.

[nycindie]

I think it is the sense of ownership over you that I would bristle at, as well.

[sage]

Where's Sage?...little help please. (Dinged)

Sigh....this is all too complex for me to get into at this late stage. I would just comment that it is unrealistic to expect monos in poly relationships to be logical and to respond in a linear way. It is my experience that dealing with a poly partner is a hugely emotional experience and our emotions erupt in very irregular ways, i.e. what was fine for us one day may not be the next. If your husband is behaving like this he has probably had some kind of emotional trigger. We dealt with this by my partner responding rather than reacting. He took the time to get underneath my actions and we both would try to figure out what was going on for me.

Hi Dinged, I am busy with work and study at the moment. My monopoly relationship is probably working as well as possible and so I don't have the time to follow the forums. I have left my blog up as a resource for those in need. If you would like me to comment on something just private message me and it comes up as an email message so I know to check the forum.

Hope you are finding some peace, love and joy, and that it will continue for 2012.

[AnotherConfused]

I'm perfectly fine with emotions being illogical or erratic. We can't always predict how we are going to feel or why. (Case in point: my discomfort with adding sexual touch to my relationship with L, once I finally had the freedom to try it. I was completely caught off guard by my feelings.)

I just think it's unfair for my husband to expect me to understand and be sensitive to his feelings if he doesn't tell me what they are. I'm a caring person. Loving is what I love to do. I have been putting a lot of very conscious effort into trying to make this work for all of us to be happy. If I had known what he needed in order to feel happy that night, of course I would have done it. C wasn't expecting another dance with me, or me with him, and if I'd known my husband was in the room I would happily have danced with him the rest of the night.

I'm trying to get to the bottom of this with my husband so that we can try to prevent this kind of scenario from repeating, but he wants to drop the subject (and just hold on to feeling wronged). His attitude is that he shouldn't need to spend his time and energy on all this, since it's my insistence on polyamory that has caused all the trouble in the first place. So now not only do I feel like he's trying to own me, but I feel like our relationship (the love, the partnership, the inter-relating) is not worth his time. It's not a very good start to the new year.

[dingedheart]

Ac, ... do you think I misinterpreted anything? ...outside of the hobby part...which I didn't know.

I said because of the events of the last few weeks that you were probably feeling relaxed about things....he may not have had problems until later in the night....or up until 11:45. ...getting close to Cinderella stuff.

You surprising him by finding him at 11:15 was the extension of the " possible" romantic notions or thoughts that could have been rolling around in his head. And about placing meaning to things that otherwise are taken for granted because they happen by default. Years past this same exact thing could have occurred and nothing would have been said.

The friend you asked the second to last dance protocol question is he aware of the new romantic dynamic between everyone? That may skew the answer.


Your thoughts and feelings about entitlement of certain dance are valid. Were his comments made in the heat of the moment? And in the balance of trade even if he truly felt that way (about the 15 min ), not ownership, why would you want to fight about it. oups I didn't know ... please remind me next year. And stipulate that this entitlement only applies to 15 min blocks of time.

The relevance of the dancing ability question was his possible thoughts and feeling about being less. Dancing as the metaphor. I thought this had a was a shared hobby type feel. Maybe everyone would be better off if not go go. Less stress for you....and less for him.

Sage, it was somewhat of a joke. For person who's not around you are sure around when I infrequently use your name::) do you have some technology that notifies you ...better put a block on the recipe section around the holidays. Take care

[SNeacail]

I'm trying to get to the bottom of this with my husband so that we can try to prevent this kind of scenario from repeating, but he wants to drop the subject (and just hold on to feeling wronged).

He may just be overwhelmed and feeling bombarded beyond what he is capable of dealing with right now.

His attitude is that he shouldn't need to spend his time and energy on all this, since it's my insistence on polyamory that has caused all the trouble in the first place.

I call "Bullshit"! Every marriage needs to spend time and energy on communication. The reason so many marriages/relationship fail is that we get lazy and decide we shouldn't have to spend anymore time and energy on our partner. Please seriously look into getting a marriage counselor, because the communication issue and his attitude toward it is a BIG RED FLAG! It will only get worse. My husband use to always throw out, "you should just know..." and it was only through a third party that he finally got it that I didn't just know.

[AnotherConfused]

Ac, ... do you think I misinterpreted anything? ...outside of the hobby part...which I didn't know.

I don't know that you misinterpreted anything, really, unless you think my husband gave me enough cues that I should have been able to figure out what was going on and what he wanted from me. He really didn't.

In the first half of the night, I danced with him multiple times on two different floors. I danced with C once on the main floor. From that, I really had no idea that he would be feeling uncomfortable or pushed into second place or any of that.

Also keep in mind that my husband is strikingly handsome (very tall, exotic Indian coloring, long thick ponytail, once got asked to be an underwear model) and never has to ask anyone to dance. He just walks in and the women come to him. C is 16 years older and pretty average looking. So I didn't expect he'd have any kind of inferiority feelings either.

Before we got to the dance he told me he'd probably be sitting down most of the night, and we arranged to dance together for the waltz before the break and the waltz at the end, so I also didn't expect that he'd be wanting to dance with me much. He was just getting over being sick, so it surprised me that he kept dancing.

So while it may be true that he was suffering his way through the evening feeling slighted and rejected at every turn, I can't imagine how anyone in my place would have figured that out. He seemed to be having fun. Quite a lot of fun.

As for the friend who thought the second-to-last dance was not necessarily assumed to be danced with one's spouse, he did not know the relationship dynamic between C and me. My husband wants that to stay private. I only asked him whether he thought it was implicit or not, and he thought it was a fuzzy situation that could be interpreted either way.

At this point, I'm ready to drop the discussion too. I don't think my husband will ever come around to seeing that I wasn't purposefully rejecting him, and I don't think discussing it is going to take away his apparent insecurity. Sadly, this whole fight leaves me completely uninspired to keep trying demonstrate my love for him. My efforts feel futile, and his love for me feels more oppressive than supportive. We'll just be housemates for a little while until the dust settles. Maybe for Valentine's day I'll make us a counselling appointment.

[sage]

It doesn't sound as if he has really accepted your polyamory.

[AnotherConfused]

It doesn't sound as if he has really accepted your polyamory.

I think he has resigned himself to it. He tolerates it. He certainly doesn't like it, but he recognized that I was struggling in trying to ignore it. 8 months of being mostly bedridden from a swollen sac around my heart finally healed around the time we came to an agreement on the boundaries for my relationships with L and C. We are trying to live a compromise that hurts us each the least.

[sage]

Resignation is not a particularly healthy way of looking at this, even though I think we all fall into it at times, it is defeatist and no one wants to feel defeated.
It's really important for monos to find the positives for themselves in their polymono relationship. I have a post on that under favourites on my blog.

[dingedheart]

AC, I would'nt be surprised if the evening went perfectly in your mind and then he cried himself to sleep a week later over it. :). So NO I don't think you missed any blatant cues.....or did anything intentional. He's maybe very good at keeping things in.

[AnotherConfused]

Resignation is not a particularly healthy way of looking at this, even though I think we all fall into it at times, it is defeatist and no one wants to feel defeated.
It's really important for monos to find the positives for themselves in their polymono relationship. I have a post on that under favourites on my blog.

Thank you Sage, I looked at your blog once in the past and will do that again. Right now he is unwilling to accept any positives. He says, "There's no benefit for me" but closes himself off to any potential benefit -everything from saying we should not have sex if I'm aroused as a result of happiness from spending time with them (and now coitus interruptus if one of them happens to cross my mind at the time) to refusing to let them do anything for us or give anything to us. I was jubilant yesterday when he said he was grateful I had learned the trick of keeping a ripe avocado from spoiling by refrigerating it. "Who told you about that? Oh yeah..." I said, "Now you can't say you haven't gotten any benefit from me having C in my life!"

[bassman]

I think he does believe polyamory is immoral. Unfortunately, all his ideas about relationships are based on what he perceives other people are doing, and since he has never been in a relationship or had sex with anyone but me, he has no clue what goes on behind the closed doors of other couples' lives. As far as he can see, I'm the only person (outside of porn movies, I guess) who has sexual fantasies, or uses sex toys. He never hears our friends talking about them, or his family. So between my libido and my interest in other men, I'm really not what he expected in a wife. It's disheartening.



"like"

My wife is the same, this really struck a chord with me.

[dingedheart]

I'd love to benefit from your relationship with C...if its not too complicated and derail the thread ...how do you keep a ripe avocado in the frig:) Pm if that's better... I gave my daughter a magic bullet of Christmas to make her smoothies and energy shakes ...but I'm thinking guacamole.

[redpepper]

Right now he is unwilling to accept any positives. He says, "There's no benefit for me" but closes himself off to any potential benefit -everything from saying we should not have sex if I'm aroused as a result of happiness from spending time with them (and now coitus interruptus if one of them happens to cross my mind at the time) to refusing to let them do anything for us or give anything to us. I was jubilant yesterday when he said he was grateful I had learned the trick of keeping a ripe avocado from spoiling by refrigerating it. "Who told you about that? Oh yeah..." I said, "Now you can't say you haven't gotten any benefit from me having C in my life!"
I agree, he doesn't get it and isn't on board from what have read here. Might I suggest you PM Mono? He sounds like he could use some mono guy help. This is sounding all too familiar. Let me know if you need some help hooking them up.

if its not too complicated and derail the thread ...how do you keep a ripe avocado in the frig:) Pm if that's better... I gave my daughter a magic bullet of Christmas to make her smoothies and energy shakes ...but I'm thinking guacamole.you can keep an avocado in the fridge to slow it from ripening too fast and when it just becomes over ripe, freeze it until when you want to make guacamole then defrost it. It keeps its colour, taste and whips up smooth. Also keep the pit in fresh guacamole as it stops it from going brown (lime helps too). So says my friend from Puerto Vallarta on that last one. :)

[SNeacail]

you can keep an avocado in the fridge to slow it from ripening too fast and when it just becomes over ripe, freeze it until when you want to make guacamole then defrost it. It keeps its colour, taste and wipes up smooth. Also keep the pit in fresh guacamole as it stops it from going brown (lime helps too). So says my friend from Puerto Vallarta on that last one. :)

Lime juice helps a lot to keep the guacamole from going brown. Before putting the guac in the fridge, put a layer of lime juice over the top. When you pull it out again, either drain the lime juice off or just mix it in (I mix it).

Don't put un-ripe avocados in the fridge, the will never finish ripening. If you only use part of an avocado, keep the remainder in the skin, with the pit still attached.

[nycindie]

Might I suggest you PM Mono? He sounds like he could use some mono guy help. This is sounding all too familiar. Let me know if you need some help hooking them up.I believe I once asked if her husband would ever come here and the OP said he would be mortified to talk to anyone about this, so I doubt that would ever happen, RP.

[AnotherConfused]

I believe I once asked if her husband would ever come here and the OP said he would be mortified to talk to anyone about this, so I doubt that would ever happen, RP.

I wish I could get him to talk to someone, but yeah, he's resistant. And right now, he doesn't even want to talk to me. Things are really tense.

C was in town today. I figured it was best not to even let my husband know, but then he decided last minute to work from home today, so I had to tell him C was headed over. He helped me with a fix-it project at my business, and then we went out to lunch. When we came back to put the tools away, the 2 men crossed paths and my husband's hello was shooting daggers. Every conversation I have with my husband is full of tension. There's no warmth between us. So I just had my first orgasm of 2012 in the back of C's car. (We followed all the explicit rules; I'm tired of trying to figure out the implicit ones.) Honestly, I'd rather be with a man who is willing to tell me his feelings, and appreciates what I offer, and offers kindness in return. Until my husband decides that our relationship is worth working on, I'm not able to keep up this one-sided attempt to connect. My door is always open, but he's got to be willing to enter.

So yeah, put the ripe avocado in the fridge and it holds it that way for quite some time.

[MonoVCPHG]

In short I'd say you have a spectator and not a partner at the moment. Similar to the idea I talked about earlier in this thread where some people will watch to see how much they can take. Setting up boundaries and compromising does work, but they are ultimately masking that you have conflicting needs from relationships - you the more open and him the more closed. Learning to acccept that and figuring out ways to cope will be more effective in the long run. And of course you both have to the accept the cost of finding that coping mechanism. It might not be a closer relationship for you and your husband. But if you have other common goals that remaining partners is a benefit for then you can focus on those.

He's likely not ever going to be fully "ok" sharing his wife (and yes, in the mongmamous world it's ok to say his wife, and her husband). Just like you would likely never be ok with being monogamous, but what are his options? Surrender and leave you, whine until you leave him, or suck it up and try to make a go of it?

Sometimes continuously sharing the same negative emotions over and over again can put more strain on the relationship than just internalizing and dealing with them on our own. Of course every now and then the underlying issue may seep out and that is where the confusion can occur for the other partner.


I have yet to hear from or meet any mono/poly couple that is 100% comfortable on both sides.

[redpepper]

I believe I once asked if her husband would ever come here and the OP said he would be mortified to talk to anyone about this, so I doubt that would ever happen, RP.
Well, one can but try. Besides I was suggesting a private chat, not on the forum. Sometimes it takes some one on one with a specific person rather than creating too many options. Ya, that can be daunting to say the least. Anyway, he can know now (when the moment is right) that someone who might "get it" from his perspective is out there at least.

As Mono says though, there is really no news here that isn't already known. It seems to be a matter of just feeling uncomfortable in compromises rather than comfortable with boundaries. It is doable. I have lived it and am used to it.

[AnotherConfused]

Thanks Mono, Redpepper. I'm hoping he'll come around to the point where he is willing to hear other perspectives. At this point I think he fears I'm trying to convert him to my way of thinking, if I ask him to read or hear an opinion from anyone who doesn't find polyamory totally objectionable.

Yesterday after I had spent time with C, my husband angrily tossed out a new rule, that C not come into contact with our children. My 9 year old already bonded with him when we attended a dance weekend together in September, so this felt pretty unfair to me. I felt like he was punishing C, or treating him as if he were an immoral man who couldn't be trusted, and I told my husband that seemed mighty unfair, considering all the effort I had put into discussing things openly, setting up clear boundaries, and scrupulously sticking to them. I told him I felt defeated even trying to please him, when I find myself charged guilty at every turn for violating agreements I never made, even for actions I never committed. I think I finally got through. He did give me his sincere thanks for abiding by all our agreements.

I asked him to let me know in advance if the boundaries need to change, so he said fine, and added rules that C should never enter our house, or our car, see our children, or be anywhere that my husband might cross his path. (Remember, he lives across the state so that last one's not too terribly impractical.)

I woke up this morning realizing that these are not really the things my husband doesn't want; I mean, he's fine with men getting to know our kids, men coming over for dinner, men riding in our car. What he really can't stand is the thought of C's hands in my pants. And I think that's what the whole NYE overreaction was about too. So I wrote to C this morning and broke it off. I mean, I hope to salvage all the other parts of our relationship, and maybe get the physical part back in the future, but for now it seems clear to me that it's a harder struggle for my husband when I do these things, than for me if I don't.

Then I told my husband, whose first reaction was, "It's your choice. I'm not saying I'm ok with it, but it's your choice." Later he came back and thanked me for making that choice.

So there it is. I tried intimacy with L, and didn't like the way it fit into our existing relationship. I tried intimacy with C, got scared by the pace and slowed it down, picked it up again and totally enjoyed it, and have now called it off for my husband's comfort. I'm really not interested in intimacy with my husband now, though, because I feel like my sexual side is so disgusting to him. So I've gone from 3 lovers to none, in a few short weeks. All I've got now is dancing.

[MonoVCPHG]

Keep an eye on your personal health, AnotherConfused. You really need to make sure you are in a good place in life over the long haul. You've made some pretty big compromises and that is admirable, but don't loose yourself. Hopefully you will find greater closeness with your husband through this.

Take care
Mono

[Phy]

So sorry to hear this :( That's horrible. From day one this was the possible outcome I was scared of the most personally. I would feel so much resentment towards my husband in this situation .. I can hardly think about it. Hopefully you two are able to sort this out again and that there is not too much damage done already on both sides. *sigh*

[Magdlyn]

Aaarrrggghhh!!!

[dingedheart]

It seems you both got a bit reactionary. Could he have popped on here and read about the masturbation stuff...which set up his response to the recent visit. With the physical distances between you and these men why pull the plug because these new boundaries...nothing to restrictive to stop the two of you from your intimacies. Or why not negotiate for some limits of the most important one while he gets his feet under him again. Like the kids...or car. I think all these joint activities so soon took its toll. How tight did you slam the door.

[AnotherConfused]

I'm not really resenting him. I mean, he tried. It just didn't work. The man's from India, after all, and I'm a far cry from the women he encountered growing up.

It feels like we're fumbling our way down a dark tunnel. We think we're sticking to the middle, and suddenly we hit a wall, and adjust our course. First I hurt, so we agreed I could explore these other relationships, then he hurt, so I'm holding back again. We'll see how far we can go this time before we bump up against something else.

On the positive side, I was already starting to feel uneasy about the dead-end nature of my relationship with C, considering he wants a monogamous girlfriend eventually. I've been getting pretty attached. This might make it easier, for when that time comes. I do wish we'd had just one opportunity to be alone in a room with a bed, though. I'm still hoping.

I'm hoping, by my making this choice, that my husband will be willing to do a little more digging now, and try to help us both understand where he is coming from (other than a conservative culture, I mean). I suspect that the root of his discomfort has mostly to do with his urgent need to be respected. He wants to live a life that holds up to public scrutiny. He is the walking definition of integrity, and I admire that about him, but I have the hardest time grasping how our sexual habits should have to meet anyone's approval other than our own. I never really get the sense that he is jealous for more typical reasons. Like, he's never been jealous of any ex-boyfriends or the fact that I had been with a fair number of men before meeting virginal him. But he doesn't want anyone making his marriage look bad.

Dingedheart, I haven't burned any bridges with C (or L), but just said my husband can't handle this right now. Right now, rather than renegotiated boundaries, I think he needs me to just focus on him, and on us. Luckily he's not limiting L in his contact with the kids, etc. First he said he would "to be consistent" but when I pointed out that intimacy hadn't felt right with L, so we decided to stop, he said in that case it was ok. Thankfully, since L has known my kids their whole lives and they adore him.

I don't know what the future will hold. I have another dance weekend with C lined up for late February, and we were really looking forward to finally getting some proper time alone (he has an apartment in that town). But that's a long way off, and anything could happen between now and then.

[redpepper]

Thanks Mono, Redpepper. I'm hoping he'll come around to the point where he is willing to hear other perspectives. At this point I think he fears I'm trying to convert him to my way of thinking, if I ask him to read or hear an opinion from anyone who doesn't find polyamory totally objectionable.

What he really can't stand is the thought of C's hands in my pants. Mono would never try and "convince" ANYONE of a Mono/poly relationship. Neither would I. I don't generally convince anyone of anything. I Generally just inform and attempt to educate. Mono and I both agree that mono/poly relationships are way to difficult to convince anyone of. If you husband ever wants to discuss it, please be sure he knows that it would be from a place of bouncing ideas off of each other and to share what we have learned in OUR relationship.

Sounds like its a moot issue at this point. :( Too bad. I think this is a really good reason NOT to share sexual experiences with other partners. It really is best to keep it between the partner you are with. The finger job likely added fuel to his fire... or id die he know about that? It kind of seemed so by the last sentence I quoted.

[AnotherConfused]

Mono would never try and "convince" ANYONE of a Mono/poly relationship. Neither would I. I don't generally convince anyone of anything. I Generally just inform and attempt to educate. Mono and I both agree that mono/poly relationships are way to difficult to convince anyone of. If you husband ever wants to discuss it, please be sure he knows that it would be from a place of bouncing ideas off of each other and to share what we have learned in OUR relationship.

Thank you. I have definitely seen that you and Mono aren't at all pushy, unless it's just to push people to be honest, and I appreciate that. I don't think my husband wants to talk to anyone else at this point, because he wants the whole thing to go away, but he was also opposed to my choosing a marriage counselor off a "poly-friendly" list. I don't think he's open to any opinions about polyamory other than, "That's totally messed up and your wife is being selfish." I will let him know your offer though. And I'm personally extremely grateful for this community for all the help, and having a place to write out my thoughts.

Sounds like its a moot issue at this point. :( Too bad. I think this is a really good reason NOT to share sexual experiences with other partners. It really is best to keep it between the partner you are with. The finger job likely added fuel to his fire... or id die he know about that? It kind of seemed so by the last sentence I quoted.

Oh gosh, I never said a thing about anything we did, except the fix-it project at my business. Leaving out, of course, the 15 minutes we spent in the basement there "looking for screws". I think he just assumed we were doing everything he hadn't said no to, and fingering was not on the "no" list. Plus he knows I like it. (A lot.) I think he has just been imagining everything to the extreme, and some of it hasn't been real (C and I scheming ahead to get that second-to-last dance) and some of it has (really nice fingers).

So much complexity, I'm about ready to throw in the towel and become a nun. Or a prostitute. I don't know which extreme.:D

[SNeacail]

I think he has just been imagining everything to the extreme, and some of it hasn't been real (C and I scheming ahead to get that second-to-last dance) and some of it has (really nice fingers).

One of the big draw backs to the DADT policy.

[AnotherConfused]

One of the big draw backs to the DADT policy.

Right? But what's the other option? How does a do-tell policy play out?

I think what went wrong was that first we made a compromise that he was far from comfortable with (and maybe he didn't realize that at first), and then he didn't trust me to stick to it. So first he imagined all the things he didn't want me to do but allowed, and then he imagined that I was going beyond that anyway. I hope he can regain his trust in me (I've given him no reason to doubt my honesty) and then eventually get more comfortable with some looser boundaries, because I really don't see myself being happily monogamous from here on out.

[AnotherConfused]

We talked a lot tonight (his suggestion) and I thought we were really making some headway. He seems to expect that I will need to get back to having physically intimate relationships, even though I've offered to put that on hold, so he wanted to be clear about those boundaries... mostly that he wants nothing to do with anyone I'm intimate with, and he wants to be informed if I develop new relationships so he knows who to avoid. Seemed like things were healing and he asked me to come to bed with him (not sex, just sleeping in the same bed) but then we talked a few minutes too long.

He says people with children have to be more careful. I said I didn't how polyamory was bad for children. That our kids aren't going to know whether I go out for a coffee or a screw, only whether their parents have a healthy relationship. He said my being in other relationships puts our kids at risk of being victims of pedophiles, and that he especially mistrusts people who don't have kids of their own (that would be C).

My god! I'm all for keeping our kids safe from undue risk, but even having been a child sex abuse victim once myself, I think this is taking things waaaay too far! To suggest that someone who loves me is likely to be after something so sick and demented... to suggest that someone I love should be held in suspicion... so I got out of bed, asked him not to sexually abuse my daughters while he was upstairs alone with them tonight, and returned to the guest bed. Am I out of line in thinking, "What a jerk!"? Grrr.

[Magdlyn]

Am I out of line in thinking, "What a jerk!"? Grrr.

No. I've been thinking this throughout the entire thread.

This man needs a mono wife of his own cultural background. Full stop.

[MonoVCPHG]

This man needs a mono wife of his own cultural background. Full stop.


Agreed.

[nycindie]

He says people with children have to be more careful. ... He said my being in other relationships puts our kids at risk of being victims of pedophiles, and that he especially mistrusts people who don't have kids of their own (that would be C).

It's pretty obvious to me that he basically views polyamory as perverse, and anyone who wants to be polyamorous as sick in some way. And that includes you, especially since you are shucking away the prescribed role he expects for a wife. I believe this is so ingrained in him, he will probably never get past it. I also think that once he married you, he stopped seeing you as an individual, but mostly as his wife with a duty to uphold -- and he is tolerating your actions because divorce is likely just as shameful as what you want to do. This is just the way it is with most cultural brainwashing that goes on, no matter how modern someone can be. My ex, as open-minded as he is, struggled with similar issues about "what a wife should be" from his upbringing in a strict Italian/Spanish/Catholic household. Sometimes a person simply cannot get beyond certain aspects of a repressive belief system.

[dingedheart]

So at his suggestion you talked ...which was good because he had shut down.

The last part this talk on centered on the current rules...and a discussion on the reasoning behind them is brought up. So he honestly answer's... (we think)...and tells you his fear. A CRAZY ungrounded, nutty fear. And yes I get it was insulting to you but crazy irrational fears can be treated. Is he super over protective of the kids in all area's of life?

You once said your marriage was painful did you ever tell him that. Maybe you need to move away from that which is causing so much pain. You and he deserve to be happy. I'm sure he wouldn't want to be married to you if he thought it was painful for you.

[AnotherConfused]

Breakthrough! My husband stayed up all night reading everything I posted here (hi honey), and then asked his boss for today off to work on his marriage. We are talking.

Neither of us intends to give up on this marriage. What I write on here focuses on this part of our lives where we are different and struggling, but ignores all the rest, where we are perfectly compatible -our views on religion and politics, our taste in food, entertainment and home decor, our shared interests in many many areas, most of our fundamental values... we have a lot that works. And a home, and a family. We are keeping this.

We are just going to learn how to love each other better, if it takes us our whole lives.

[SourGirl]

Breakthrough! My husband stayed up all night reading everything I posted here (hi honey), and then asked his boss for today off to work on his marriage. We are talking.

Neither of us intends to give up on this marriage. What I write on here focuses on this part of our lives where we are different and struggling, but ignores all the rest, where we are perfectly compatible -our views on religion and politics, our taste in food, entertainment and home decor, our shared interests in many many areas, most of our fundamental values... we have a lot that works. And a home, and a family. We are keeping this.

We are just going to learn how to love each other better, if it takes us our whole lives.

Well that sounds good. :)

I don`t think your husband needs to let go of his beliefs, if he feels they are true for him. The problem, is when we try to force others to follow our own beliefs. Anyone can look around themselves, the internet, and even this forum, and see 'cultural brainwashing'..Where people see only their own view of what is right.

If you can find a balance between the differences, as well as a respect for each others needs, you can truly learn to love each other for who each of you really are, not what each of you may want the other to be.

[nycindie]

What I write on here focuses on this part of our lives where we are different and struggling, but ignores all the rest...
Aww, I hope you know that we know that. We've only been giving you feedback about what you have posted. Of course, human beings are multifaceted creatures and anything any of us shares here will be just a tiny sliver of a picture of our lives.

You have stated many times on this board how much you love your husband. No one thinks he's an asshole or a bad guy -- we just get that he has his issues and cultural conditioning to contend with in dealing with your inherent need to love others fully. You have your issues, too. No one comes without baggage. I hope, if he reads here again, that he knows he is welcome to post, too, and that we're not against him or automatically taking your side. Ultimately, everyone here wants you and him to both find a happy compromise.

[dingedheart]

Wow, truly unbelievable. How is this guy different than all the hundreds of partners who come here for advice when their spouse of 14 yrs has an epiphany and wants to screw other people. I can't remember one time where anyone tried to blame the persons culture or country. This is real high brow enlighten thinking....a proud moment for the forum.

Mono, you're from Canada ....you're in the right country what the fuck is wrong with you.

I live in the US ...shit what the fucks wrong with me ( SG dont answer that)...I live where they both live...where she was born and raised. Maybe we should move to India. I'm takin my bike how bout you mono?


No one thinks he a bad guy ...just a jerk who views poly as being sick and perverse stemming from his backward culture. You need to reread what you wrote.... not too nice.

I don't get it... he's been at this a whole month or 2 ... what the fuck is wrong with him he should be ok by now. That's like a poly lifetime. Lots "western " poly folks have cycled through a few people by then.
AC you must NOT be reassuring him enough to compensate for the cultural differences.

Mono how long have you been at this ?...when's Leo going to finally see and feel what you've been blocking. I know it's her choice ...semantics.

AC how long is the standard or average recovery for pericarditis 3 weeks to a month? How long did it take you?

If I was him just like sundance I would touch this place for anything.
Albert brooks in defending your life....high brow and enlighten ...right.

[MonoVCPHG]

Mono how long have you been at this ?...when's Leo going to finally see and feel what you've been blocking. I know it's her choice ...semantics.

.

LOL! You got me - I agree that he should be with someone of a mongamous inclination more than a genralization of his cultural background. My bad :)

[redpepper]

when speaking of culture I was thinking it was about mono culture and poly culture.... Maybe I got it wrong.

[dingedheart]

Mono, if and when you have a private chat with him how would explain differences on how you feel about RP having sex with Leo and how he feels about AC having sex with C or L.? Sorta the same, right. Except he's allowed more. And in less time.

Maybe RP suggested this for the opposite reason. So he could help/guide you into relaxing your boundary ...to allow naked wrestling and masturbation....wow that would be really clever.

[MonoVCPHG]

Mono, if and when you have a private chat with him .

You've got to remember that my relationship works for me because I am not RP's husband. I probably wouldn't be very genuine in trying to convince any husband or wife that they should be ok with their partner being sexually intimate on any level with someone. It doesn't work that way for me; marriage changes things in my heart and mind.

[NovemberRain]

Dinged, the first post states 'for the past couple years' not months. Other than that, I loved your post.

[dingedheart]

Yes you are right ....I was referring to the actual physical stuff ....magic fingers. I thought that started late oct or nov.

[SourGirl]

LOL! You got me - I agree that he should be with someone of a mongamous inclination more than a genralization of his cultural background. My bad :)

I think you`ve just been 'Ding-ding-dinged !' :D



As for the topic,(general answer)...I do think it gets a bit crazy around here with advice on 'hurrying people up'.....With what I do for a living, the regular train of thought when you hit a brick wall in retraining a mindset, is that : 'However long it took them to embrace one mindset, it`ll possibly take just as long to undo it.'

Should it then take 20 years to undo, 20 years of 'societal conditioning' ? ( Which I think we put to much emphasis on, life experience usually accounts for more.) No, most people come along much faster then that. However, I think it gets a bit much, when someone has been married x-amount of years, but is 'frustrated' their spouse is not on board within a years time, so they can do everything they want.

[nycindie]

Dinged,
I never said Indian culture was backward, nor did I "blame" it for anything, and I never said AC's husband is a jerk. I would never say things like that! Shit, don't put fucking words in my mouth!

I said AC's husband has been conditioned by his culture just like we all have been, but different cultures have different ideas and belief systems that sometimes clash with others. That was not an elitist or racist thing to say. It wouldn't be accurate to deny that certain cultures are more patriarchal than others, and teach certain ideas about the roles and duties of husbands and wives. I even mentioned that my ex struggled with the culture he was raised in - Italian/Spanish and very strict Catholic.

Anyone who is raised steeped in a strict culture has a hard time challenging or shedding belief systems in order to see options outside what they were taught as something valid, and not bad, evil, perverse, etc. AC has mentioned his background several times in this thread, so it's not like I made this up. Obviously, it is a factor. I know my background and the beliefs I was enculturated with affect me. Does culture not affect you?

Furthermore, I said I think he feels poly is perverse because of these statements by AC:
...I feel like my sexual side is so disgusting to him.He said my being in other relationships puts our kids at risk of being victims of pedophiles... To suggest that someone who loves me is likely to be after something so sick and demented... to suggest that someone I love should be held in suspicion...

I don't think anyone thinks AC's husband needs to hurry up and get on the poly train sooner than he is ready. However, you seem to forget that AC has loved the two other men in her life and has been talking to her husband about it for several years. I feel that you belittle her needs by saying this is about her wanting "to screw other people." This is about taking the love she already feels to a physical level, to allow for deeper intimacy and sharing, but you make it seem like it's just about sex for her. There is a distinction. Are you personalizing her situation?

[MonoVCPHG]

I think you`ve just been 'Ding-ding-dinged !' :D



.

I should have been spell checked as well :o

[ray]

I agree that culture is an important thing not to be overlooked. Examining it is not racist or elitist, in and of itself.

For instance, we regularly attribute a spouse's reluctance to religious 'culture' and that is okay? Yes, it is. Culture is the fabric of our human existence. It comes in many forms and is something that we can never escape. AC's husband's culture is important to him, just like my culture is important to me or Dinged's to him. It shapes who you are and how you act.

Having grown up in a very traditional evangelical background, my parents would find it horrifying to know that I've dated non-Christian men. My interests in bisexuality, BDSM and polyamory would repulse them. They would likely react very strongly possibly even cutting ties. Does that make them bad people? Not necessarily. It means that their culture has taught them things, values and beliefs. It would be very difficult for them to see the world any differently. If they ever find out about this stuff, I hope they will try to look past their culture and see me. Not allowing their beliefs to define me as disgusting or abhorrent. Sometimes people are able to work past that to accept the lifestyles of their loved ones and sometimes they never do. It can be very difficult.

I feel that cultures from another country are similar. It's not that the Indian culture and its values that AC's husband holds are bad, they just happen to be somewhat incompatible with how AC wants to live. Until the two of them can reconcile their different beliefs and wants, they may feel very much at odds. And yes, it does have to do with culture. Just like a Christian spouse who feels unable to accept their partner's polyamory.

Their challenge is to create a new culture within their marriage that allows them to integrate their individual cultures in a way that both parties feel respected and valued. This will likely take time and lots and lots of work. This is something that every couple must do, in my opinion, even if they both grew up in the same country.

[AnotherConfused]

Wow, truly unbelievable. How is this guy different than all the hundreds of partners who come here for advice when their spouse of 14 yrs has an epiphany and wants to screw other people.

Are you talking about me? I don't want to screw other people. I'm just having a hard time holding back the love I feel for my friend of 20 years and someone I met last year. And my husband has been aware of my struggle since at least mid-2010, so it's not something I've dropped on him suddenly, expecting him to immediately accept it.

I can't remember one time where anyone tried to blame the persons culture or country.

Are you saying we need to ignore cultural context? The more I talk to him, the more apparent it becomes that the half of his life he spent in India formed some really deeply ingrained values and beliefs -many of which I appreciate, and a few of which I don't agree with. His beliefs about relationships, marriage, and sex make it particularly difficult for him to understand how I feel, and for me to understand how he feels.


No one thinks he a bad guy ...just a jerk who views poly as being sick and perverse stemming from his backward culture.

When he views poly as sick and perverse, I feel judged as sick and perverse. It hurts. When he suggested we need to suspect C of pedophilia, and all childless men as more likely to be pedophiles, he was acting like a jerk. But we have talked about that, and there was a combination of his speaking in anger and me misunderstanding his comments, so it's water under the bridge now.

I don't get it... he's been at this a whole month or 2 ... what the fuck is wrong with him he should be ok by now.

We set new boundaries a few weeks ago, and it all seemed to be going fine, until New Years Eve. When I realized he was discovering that he had more trouble with it than we expected, I offered to hold back. No one ever said something was wrong with him for that, least of all me.


That's like a poly lifetime. Lots "western " poly folks have cycled through a few people by then.

I don't understand this. Cycle through? Are poly people more likely to cut new relationships off than mono people? I'm kind of a long term girl myself.

AC you must NOT be reassuring him enough to compensate for the cultural differences.

I'm trying. And trying and trying and trying.

AC how long is the standard or average recovery for pericarditis 3 weeks to a month? How long did it take you?

Pericarditis lasts from a few days to a few months. I took about 7 months. There were some partial recoveries with relapses but I've been well for about 6 weeks now. Thanks for asking.

Relax, dinged.

[AnotherConfused]

Their challenge is to create a new culture within their marriage that allows them to integrate their individual cultures in a way that both parties feel respected and valued. This will likely take time and lots and lots of work. This is something that every couple must do, in my opinion, even if they both grew up in the same country.

I agree! We integrate our separate backgrounds (India/US, male/female, and all our other differences) every day. It's a combination of acknowledging the environments that formed us, and striving to find common ground.

[Magdlyn]

Are you talking about me? I don't want to screw other people. I'm just having a hard time holding back the love I feel for my friend of 20 years and someone I met last year. And my husband has been aware of my struggle since at least mid-2010, so it's not something I've dropped on him suddenly, expecting him to immediately accept it.

Yeah!



Are you saying we need to ignore cultural context? The more I talk to him, the more apparent it becomes that the half of his life he spent in India formed some really deeply ingrained values and beliefs -many of which I appreciate, and a few of which I don't agree with. His beliefs about relationships, marriage, and sex make it particularly difficult for him to understand how I feel, and for me to understand how he feels.

Thank you for concurring with my comment upthread, which I made in the context of what you've told us about Indian cultural values. I felt bad being practically accused of racism or perhaps ethnicism by dinged. Of course, it's not your husband's lovely brown skin color or long glossy black hair that is the issue here, it's the values of his mother country in general and family values specifically that are affecting his extreme reaction to your love for other partners.

I've been in chat with an Indian-American guy for a year and a half, who really wants to date me, but his culture demands he live with his wife until his divorce is finalized, even though they have been "separated" for several years. He feels unable to get his own place because his teen nieces and nephews, god children, are going to college in the area, stop by on the weekends, and would report back to their parents, and his parents, living in India, and the extended family tie is so strong he fears being cut off from all of them, and disowned by his parents if he were to get his own apartment. He can NOT move out until his divorce is legally finalized. And I won't date him until he moves out. Obviously, this guy is OK with polyamory, but I am not going to run the risk of dating him with all the family pressure to keep up appearances.

Also this guy reminds me similar cultural values are shared in all of Asia, the Middle East, and Africa. Views on women's rights are quite different in Western Europe and parts of the Americas, and that is exactly what is going on here.


When he views poly as sick and perverse, I feel judged as sick and perverse. It hurts. When he suggested we need to suspect C of pedophilia, and all childless men as more likely to be pedophiles, he was acting like a jerk. But we have talked about that, and there was a combination of his speaking in anger and me misunderstanding his comments, so it's water under the bridge now.

I am glad you worked it out somewhat, AC, but I feel bad for you constantly being accused of being sick and perverse, when you are just a polyamorous feminist, wanting control of your own sexuality and love-style. How awful to hear your sweet beloveds accused of such a sickness and crime!


I'm trying. And trying and trying and trying.

Bending over backwards and crawling on the floor with guilt and shame and mea culpas even!


Relax, dinged.

Ditto, dinged. Your own pain being projected onto others' situations, your triggers, so to speak, are coloring your views here even more than usual. (I've got triggers too, I know how that can happen.) But accusing AC of not trying hard enough when she's trying so damn hard is difficult to read and my hackles rise with compassion and sisterly love.

[nycindie]

I've been in chat with an Indian-American guy for a year and a half, who really wants to date me, but his culture demands he live with his wife until his divorce is finalized, even though they have been "separated" for several years. He feels unable to get his own place because his teen nieces and nephews, god children, are going to college in the area, stop by on the weekends, and would report back to their parents, and his parents, living in India, and the extended family tie is so strong he fears being cut off from all of them, and disowned by his parents if he were to get his own apartment. He can NOT move out until his divorce is legally finalized.

I worked with an Indian woman who was raised in traditional Hindu culture in Trinidad. She had an arranged marriage to a man about 20 years older than she, and they were required to live with his parents. Every morning she had to wake up and make chapati to her mother-in-law's satisfaction, even if it meant making it three or four times until the woman approved. She also had to maintain the home according to what made her in-laws happy, and wait on them all day long. Her husband deferred to his elderly parents in every way.

After about two years, her husband suddenly died, and she was forced out of her home and had to live with her widowed aunt because her right to live there had ended and a woman cannot live on her own, alone. There she was required to cook for and clean up after her aunt's son, who was an adult in his 20s - but she being a woman, it was her duty. He wouldn't even bring his dishes to the sink. That's where she lived when I met her. She was in her mid-30s, and had a college education, yet had to ask her aunt for permission whenever she was invited to any outing or party thrown by any of us who worked with her. She told me once a niece of hers was disowned when someone saw her drinking a beer. Indian culture has very concrete ideas about proper conduct and a woman's place in life.

[Magdlyn]

I worked with an Indian woman who was raised in traditional Hindu culture in Trinidad. ...There she was required to cook for and clean up after her aunt's son, who was an adult in his 20s - but she being a woman, it was her duty. He wouldn't even bring his dishes to the sink. That's where she lived when I met her. She was in her mid-30s, and had a college education, yet had to ask her aunt for permission whenever she was invited to any outing or party thrown by any of us who worked with her. She told me once a niece of hers was disowned when someone saw her drinking a beer. Indian culture has very concrete ideas about proper conduct and a woman's place in life.

Eek! What a story.

Of course, strict patriarchy affects men as well, as in the story of my male friend, above. He's not exactly able to live the life he wants to live now that his marriage has broken down, either. Nor can AC's husband live honestly, since appearances alone, and what others think, is much more important to him than what is actually going on in his marriage. :(

[AnotherConfused]

I'm back. It's a little harder to write my thoughts freely here now that I know my husband may read them, but I still need help and I feel like I get it here.

We have had a hard time patching things up since New Year's Eve. We've discussed things over and over, and gone from angry and hurt to kind and calm, and earnestly trying to work on our relationship. I've decided not to be physically intimate with C or L, at least until I feel like it would work better. Most likely not ever with L, since it complicated our friendship.

But I still really want more with C. At this point it would be a trade off -if we enjoy intimacy, my husband won't allow him in my home or around my family. If not, he can be a part of our lives. I'm just not able to have a sexual or semi-sexual relationship with anyone who I am not so close to that I'd want him to be part of my life beyond that, so this is my choice. Next time I see C, he'll be driving my daughters and me to a friend's house 3 hours away -a carpool that happened to work out on his birthday. It will be a chaste visit.

So that's tough, but I'm willing to make that compromise, because my husband has leaned as far as he can in my direction to the point of getting hurt, and I don't want to do that to him. I want our marriage to work.

And yet, it's not working. I haven't been able to muster up any sexual desire for him since New Year's Eve. I don't know exactly why. At first I was just mad at him, but I'm not now. In some ways I think I'm afraid that my sexual nature is so abhorrent to him that I want to shut it down. I'm also not convinced he really loves me. I know he is 100% committed to me, provides for me, works hard for me, takes care of me, tries to make me happy... and I should just take all that and be content, but underneath it all I think he does it not because he loves who I am and wants to be around me, but because he made a decision to marry me. He made that decision in the very beginning of our relationship, the night he gave me his virginity, so I think it had to have been based quite a lot on hormones, and not just NRE but the only relationship energy he had ever felt in his life.

The other reason I doubt he loves me is because he has made comments before, about C and L (and others at times) only being attracted to me because I am a younger woman giving them attention, and that they wouldn't be so into me if they knew me as well as he does, because they only see one side of me, a happy side, and don't have to deal with all my ups and downs as he does. I know there's some truth to that, to being more excited about people we only get to see in small doses, but it leaves me feeling like I have a lovable facade hiding the difficult, demanding, less enjoyable woman my husband has come to know.

Should I care? I have a devoted husband who would do anything for me. That should be enough, right? But I think I'm drawn to L and C because I want to feel really loved. I've had arguments and anger and tears with both of them, so I think they see who I really am and still love me. I've been feeling bad about myself a lot lately, between long term illness making me feel useless, and gaining some weight, and my business hitting a financial downturn, and my polyamory messing up my marriage... I really want to feel loved. L looks at all that and gives me an honest scolding for what he thinks I'm doing wrong (like not seeing a marriage counselor yet), tells me I'm a difficult woman, and loves me in spite of it. Maybe even because of it. C just looks at me with stars in his eyes, tells me how much I've helped him grow into who he wants to be. They both make me feel truly loved, for being me.

Meanwhile my husband has started working out and dieting in hopes his new figure will attract me. He's simply gorgeous. I just don't know what my problem is.

[SNeacail]

The other reason I doubt he loves me is because he has made comments before, about C and L (and others at times) only being attracted to me because I am a younger woman giving them attention, and that they wouldn't be so into me if they knew me as well as he does, because they only see one side of me, a happy side, and don't have to deal with all my ups and downs as he does.

Yeah, with comments like that, I wouldn't be able to have sex with him either. When my husband says stupid shit like that (or something similar) it replays in my head every time he touches me and I simply shut down and sex turns into a duty and nothing more.

Meanwhile my husband has started working out and dieting in hopes his new figure will attract me. He's simply gorgeous.

Not going to help! It might make him feel better about himself and it might increase his sex drive, but probably won't do anything for your attraction to him. What some men seem to forget is that most women are NOT driven by visual stimulation like most men are, but the emotional aspect plays a much bigger role (don't get me wrong, visual stimulation is usually appreciated). My husband has a hard time understanding why I can't just rebound instantly once he has "explained" himself when we have had a misunderstanding.

[redpepper]

It has never been okay for me to hear hurtful words directed at my character. I lose interest immediately and take all my closeness away. Sex included. I can see why you would feel that way.

He is approaching it all wrong I think. He's approaching it from his looks and what he offers on the outside (financial support, etc.), not from what comes from his inside as in how he communicates and how that makes you feel. I think if I were you I would be asking him to trade the work-outs for workshops in how to communicate effectively and without being hurtful ("Non Violent Communication" maybe? Google it) and get both of you to couples therapy where they teach these skills.

[AnotherConfused]

I should clarify. These hurtful comments are not the norm. They have just come up once or twice over the years. The majority of our conversations are respectful and definitely nonviolent, and if anyone is screaming nasty hurtful things, it's always me. (Hanging my head in shame.)

I'm coming to understand that he wants to love me by doing things for me -working hard, working out, buying me a luxurious lifestyle, getting up first every morning to make hot breakfast for the kids, taking care of me when I'm sick, and on and on. All good, and I'm grateful. But I feel like a giant responsibility, even a burden, because I don't feel like I offer anything for him in return. I'm not sure he gets any pleasure from my company. I feel like I disappoint him in many aspects of my life, especially during these past many months of illness, when I've had little ability to accomplish anything, even my own self care. It's as if the more he does for me (to show his love) the more I feel incapable in return (and the less lovable).

I just got off the phone with C, who just melts me with his love. He doesn't try to do anything for me, but tells me that he loves the sound of my laughter, and that unlike with any other woman he has been attracted to, he has never felt the urge to try to pretend to be a better person around me, because from the very beginning I've made him feel totally comfortable being who he is. To C, I am not a burden at all. Is it ok to let myself feel this love? I hope so, because I don't think it's something I could give up.

[Anneintherain]

Erm...not sure if you have read it yet, but that does kind of sound like it might be a case where the 5 Love Languages book could come in handy to start some discussion. He can let you know what you DO do that makes him feel loved and you can try to do more of that, vice versa.

[AnotherConfused]

Erm...not sure if you have read it yet, but that does kind of sound like it might be a case where the 5 Love Languages book could come in handy to start some discussion. He can let you know what you DO do that makes him feel loved and you can try to do more of that, vice versa.

I have just placed a library hold on it. Thanks! I came across Sternberg's "triangular theory of love" today and was planning to discuss that with my husband tonight. Those 3 parts are intimacy (emotional), passion, and commitment. Commitment is all I feel from him sometimes, although we have at other times had all 3. I've noticed I feel satisfied with only passion and intimacy coming from C, because I have all the commitment I can handle already. L has always been all three for me. And for all the heartache and confusion, I feel so, so lucky to have these three loving me the ways that they do.

[SNeacail]

Definitely sounds like the both of you needing to go through the 5 Love Languages book together. I know it made a HUGE difference in my marriage almost immediately. RP also had some very good suggestions, especially about learning about "non-violent communication" (I know from experience as I'm the worst offender in this area).

[redpepper]

Sounds like a whole lot of NRE also.

[AnotherConfused]

Just wanted to share this happy update to my saga. I took Anneintherain's excellent advice and got the 5 Love Languages book, which my husband and I both read and had some huge "aha" moments. We also had one good counselling session. Now we understand each other much, much better and are both getting far better at loving each other, and enjoying loving each other. It's quite a shift.

We also reopened our marriage, somewhat. My husband decided he could tolerate my involvement with C (everything but sex/oral) and still allow him in my life, as long as he personally isn't expected to interact with him. Last weekend C and I were both signed up for a dance camp in a town where C has an apartment. My husband listened to my offer to stay in a hotel or with other friends or to use the apartment while C stayed elsewhere, but when I expressed what was pretty much my fantasy, which was to spend the nights there with C, he said he was ok with that -as long as sex was not included. So I did -I had a long weekend with C, spending much of our days at a camp where we only interacted as friends in a crowd, but eating our meals at his place (except one lovely picnic lunch in a park) and spending nights in his bed. Total bliss!

In the days since I've been home, I've felt such an enormous rush of love for my husband for letting this come to be. And I feel sooooooo sexy. And happy, happy, happy. My husband is enjoying it. Above all, I feel like I am finally complete. All the parts of my life have just clicked into place. No more wistful longing for something I can't have. (Of course I miss C since he is usually far away, but that's a sweet kind of longing because I know he'll be back eventually.)

I've been thinking recently about my single years, when I once calculated that more than half of my time in relationships had been long distance, and I used to joke that I must be more lovable from a distance. I think it's really that I like writing and anticipating and the joy of reuniting, but that alone is not fulfilling. Now I have a long distance boyfriend and a husband, and that feels absolutely perfect.

So for the record, here is one mono/poly couple who have achieved a happy state.

[Magdlyn]

AC, I am amazed and glad you and your h have achieved this new level of trust and understanding.

Not to be too prurient, but you say "sex" (coitus) and oral sex with C isn't allowed. But you were allowed to sleep naked together, and do all the kissing, breast play, licking/nibbling (other than the genitalia) and massaging, and mutual masturbation to orgasm you might wish? I mean, I hope so. Otherwise it sounds like an exercise in frustration to me...

[AnotherConfused]

But you were allowed to sleep naked together, and do all the kissing, breast play, licking/nibbling (other than the genitalia) and massaging, and mutual masturbation to orgasm you might wish? I mean, I hope so.

Yes, all that good stuff. For me, that is plenty satisfying. For C, it was enjoyable but he never did get to an orgasm, which was a little frustrating but he seemed not to mind. I just have to learn some new tricks, I guess!

[Magdlyn]

Yes, all that good stuff. For me, that is plenty satisfying. For C, it was enjoyable but he never did get to an orgasm, which was a little frustrating but he seemed not to mind. I just have to learn some new tricks, I guess!

Oh cool. Fun!

Yeah, sometimes there is a learning curve... trust, comfort and just the right kind of strokin! You go, girl.