Non-Sexual Affection

[cloves]

ok...i'm not sure how to search for this exactly, so indulge me a new thread if you all will.

I've been reading through the stories and experiences and have found that for the most part, (allow me to generalize for a moment) that random sexual encounters aren't exactly poly (whether your partner allows them or not.)
Instead it seems to be more about a deeper connection first....and then a possible sharing of a sexual relationship.
But what about the other end of the spectrum? In my own situation, I'm finding myself very attracted, for lack of a better word, to somebody other than my partner, in a very NON sexual way. In fact, when i think about new friend, the fantasy is always about hand holding and cuddling.
Don't get me wrong, i HAVE fantasied about being with her, but usually my thoughts are for the most part very protective and nurturing.

does this happen often? What does it mean when your main concern in a new relationship isn't sexual attraction? Or am I misconstruing my own thoughts? Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, but I find it a bit hard to articulate.

[constlady]

I have a deeply connected partner with whom I share an intense love bond and we are not sexual with each other.

Yes, there is attraction there but for a variety of reasons, it's best for us to refrain at this time so we do. That may or may not change in the future but we are both ok with things remaining as they are.

That may not be the same situation as you have but we are intimately affectionate, hugs, kisses, touches etc and I consider him to be one of my life partners.

Sex is a part of many intimate relationships but not all and its absence does not necessarily impact the depth of emotional connection between people who love each other.

[LovingRadiance]

In fact, when i think about new friend, the fantasy is always about hand holding and cuddling.
Don't get me wrong, i HAVE fantasied about being with her, but usually my thoughts are for the most part very protective and nurturing.

Nearly ALL of my fantasies about my current boyfriend in the last 16+ years I've known him have revolved around cuddling, hand holding, HUGGING, HOLDING, curling up and going to sleep next to him, running through mud puddles whilst holding hands, falling asleep while he runs his fingers through my hair staring at me, listening to music laying on the floor side by side staring at the computer... you get the picture. I have only ever had a HANDFUL of sexual fantasies/dreams pop up and only a handful of times in all those years. (no we didn't JUST have sex recently either, I took his virginity damn near 15 years ago or so).
Its just never been the KEY thing in our relationship/friendship/time etc.


does this happen often?


Can't say if it happens often or not.
But it certainly does happen.

What does it mean when your main concern in a new relationship isn't sexual attraction?

In my opinion (which may not be the GENERALLY accepted opinion, just mine) it means you have already established in your mind that one or both of you have more to offer then a possible good lay based on looks.

It could also mean that you crave those non-sexual things.
It could also mean you sense that she does. (you did say she right?)
Lots of possibilities-so don't automatically freak out if my guess was wrong please. ;)

Or am I misconstruing my own thoughts? Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, but I find it a bit hard to articulate.

What do you mean by misconstruing your own thoughts?

[LovingRadiance]

Hey-I noticed someone asking about this on the New to Poly board and it was intriguing to me.

GreenGecko and I have long had a friendship. Sex has been a part (very small) of it off and on over the years. But in 16 years-even at the beginning when "NRE" would theoretically be in effect-it just wasn't a big focus.

I noted on the other thread-that only a handful of times did I have fantasies about anything sexual in regards to him.

I was thinking about that posters questions about themself and kind of tossing them out to myself in regards to GreenGecko and wondering, so what does that mean about our relationship?

We have great sex when we have sex and we're neither one opposed to having sex when the opportunity arises. But it's just not a HUGE big deal if that opportunity doesn't arrive and honestly-there are times when the opportunity DOES arise-that we choose not to take it because we REALLY want to do something else together (like put together playlists of music)....

Anyone else have these type of relationships with their "life loves" or other long term relationships?

Thoughts?
Feelings?
Questions welcome!

[Erosa]

Non sexual affection is perfectly normal. It's part of foreplay but also part of expression of acceptance and trust. It's just as important as sexual affection and most people (even the menfolk) crave it just as much as the sex.

So I think it's perfectly normal that you'd want this. :)

[Ceoli]

I think intimacy and sexual connection are often confused as being synonymous. They are intricately tied to one another in many ways, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Some relationships have more of a sexual connection than an intimate connection. Some relationships have more of an intimate connection than a sexual connection. For me, different relationships have different proportions of each.

Some people can't feel intimacy without a sexual connection. Some people can't feel a sexual connection without intimacy. Some people don't need intimacy to have a deep sexual connection. Some people don't need the sexual connection to have a deep intimate connection.

Either way, all of these ways are great and wonderful ways to connect to another human being. So if the level of of sexual affection feels right and happy for both, then that is the best outcome you can have. Yay for not trying to force it into something it doesn't need to be!

[rolypoly]

Amen!

[Sweetheart]

Thank you Ceoli.

I agree, just let it be what it is.

[cloves]

thanks everybody for helping to validate what I feel for this girl. Yes, I did say "she." :)

misconstruing my own thoughts....erm.....i guess what I was trying to say was...am I just trying to make this more "correct" or "honorable" .... are those the wrong words???......argh...
ok, by emphasizing the more innocent stuff in my mind, am I making it more acceptable to myself in my own brain. I dont think that's what i'm doing.

Not that I think it's wrong per se to have these feelings...for somebody other than my life partner. (and no I haven't really acted on these feelings at all....but it should be mentioned that my life partner has no idea i've even considered it either)

[cloves]

Thanks LR for the new thread. I appreciate it!

and thanks for all the responses as well. I'm learning.

[greenearthal]

I think intimacy and sexual connection are often confused as being synonymous. They are intricately tied to one another in many ways, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Some relationships have more of a sexual connection than an intimate connection. Some relationships have more of an intimate connection than a sexual connection. For me, different relationships have different proportions of each.

Some people can't feel intimacy without a sexual connection. Some people can't feel a sexual connection without intimacy. Some people don't need intimacy to have a deep sexual connection. Some people don't need the sexual connection to have a deep intimate connection.

Either way, all of these ways are great and wonderful ways to connect to another human being. So if the level of of sexual affection feels right and happy for both, then that is the best outcome you can have. Yay for not trying to force it into something it doesn't need to be!

frame it and post it on the wall.

[LovingRadiance]

Very well put Ceoli... It's funny though becuase sometimes I feel a little off too in trying to explain to people.

It seems like SEX is the hot topic when we talk about relationships. Maca was saying to me that he thought it was because sex is a universal sign of affection.
I told him I'm not sure that's true. I can't say it's NOT-because I don't have enough knowledge on other areas of the world to begin to guess (and by other areas I don't even just mean other countries-I'm stuck here in freezerville! LOL).

But I think it hasnt been a true sign of affection for that long in the BIG picture.
I also think that it's not central to the MAJORITY of our "loving" relationships (child/parent, siblings, many friends...) so it seems to have an unreasonably high amount of attention paid to it in relationship to it's importance in relationships in general.

Now-please don't misunderstand me. It was a HUGE deal for me that if I were to get married (which I did) the man would HAVE to be compatible with me in bed, because a satisfying sex life is a requirement for me in life. But when I explain that the other things are ALSO so important sometimes it feels like.... I don't know-people just don't understand....

(not anyone here per se-just in general)

[ladyjools]

i am highly sexed, so sex is big part of my relationships. I tend to go through phases though when i have lots and when i have not as much,
but, i do value intamicy in other ways prob as much sometimes more than i value the sex. I need the other connections more, the hugs, the shared intrests and time just holding hands etc...

to me it seems perfectly ok to not need sex that much even if i am highly sexed myself

Jools

[redpepper]

I am much like you ladyjools. Highly sexed. Its not uncommon for me to have sex everyday sometimes more than once. My problem lies in remembering that that kind of closeness makes me feel closer to people than is sometimes comfortable for them. I am able to be very close with others physically and really like that and feel comfortable with that but people are not always open and comfortable with me in their space.

Fortunately I have worked hard at this and am doing really well at giving space. My next step is to be close to people and not feel like I am obliged to have sex with them. Sometimes I desire it, not for the last year since meeting Mono ;), but have in the past when I haven't been getting enough. I really want to be able to have close intimate friendships that don't require sex. That would be the ultimate for me :) does that make sense? Heh, let me know if it doesn't.

[Legion]

One of the great loves of my life, "M.", would fall under this thread. She was part of the catalyst "Maia" from the story in this thread (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1028) that sent me down the poly path. We have to this day still never had sex. She sent me a message the other day saying that she wanted to come visit and I haven't talked with her about it yet but I hope to see her soon!

I was thinking about my current situation. That is, I am currently sexual with one person whom I informed I was poly. She said that was fine if I wanted to sleep with other people but she only wanted to sleep with me.

Last I knew, Maia had met a wonderful guy (her words, I have yet to meet him) so she might be involved... or she might not. I was thinking about the possibility that she might be single and if so I still wouldn't be engaging her sexually just because the possibility it could put Bee at risk (and myself). Which makes me wonder if Maia and I are ever destined to be sexual or will there always be one thing or another keeping us from that union? Or is there some psychological barrier keeping us (such as a fear that if we have sex our feelings/relationship dynamic might change)?

[Sweetheart]

I am an extremely affectionate person, which can be overwhelming to the people close to me if there aren't many of them! It helps that I have many children to lavish with affection.

As others have said in this thread, I am also a highly sexual person, which can be overwhelming to my lovers if there aren't many of them! For me, 2-3 times a day is normal, once a day is acceptable if I'm feeling tired or unwell, and missing a day is virtually unheard of. If I'm feeling horny, look out! I also find that there is a certain level of intimacy brought about by sexuality that deepens my relationships. However, the time spent lovingly doing things together other than sex is the relationship itself.

We make time for that kind of stuff. Playing board games or card games together after the kids go to sleep, cooking a meal together, doing a puzzle as a family, getting grandma & grandpa to watch the kids for a while so we can have a date outside the house, holding hands while at the grocery store... the little stuff (that's not actually so little).

That's where the love is.

OK, well, actually there's a lot of love in sex too. :rolleyes:

[Magdlyn]

Hm. My libido goes up and down. When my 3 highly spirited kids were little, it was practically non-existent, b/c I was just touched out by them. Breastfeeding and cuddling them and co-sleeping (we practiced attachment parenting) left me w little desire for sex w my husband.

Once the kids got a bit older and were finally sleeping thru the night, my sex drive came back w a vengeance! I had thought it was gone for good. The last 10 yrs of my marriage were highly sexual, even tho we didnt get along in many areas and finally broke up.

One of the areas of contenetion was my tendency to get crushes on other people, movie or rock stars, or actual people I knew.

So, the last 12 yrs, I have had a v strong sex drive. I just love it, and I love getting attention from people who are interested in me sexually, as well as emotionally and intellectually. This is something I am working on this year, my first yr of freedom from a marriage that became terribly tiresome and stultifying.

I'm a woman of a certain age. I look OK for 54, but I know I've got an expiration date... I have to admit it's flattering to get hit on by younger men on okc.

So, yes. I want sex daily (if I dont get it from a partner, I will jill off). It's an important part of a relationship to me.

[vampiresscammy]

ohh, this thread so helps on a question I was haivng in another, awesome folks, thank you for sharing.

I understand much better what some of the folks were saying in the bi women thread.

It seems I've not had the privaledge of such a relationship yet, I look forward to hopefully experienceing one some day

[River]

Ceoli's post # 2 was quite refreshing, and goes a long way toward letting us all off the hook. That is, it helps us to recognize that all of our relationships are both unique and ... well, just as they are. We don't have to force standard categories upon them. Thanks, Ceoli.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=14543&postcount=2

[crisare]

It was a HUGE deal for me that if I were to get married (which I did) the man would HAVE to be compatible with me in bed, because a satisfying sex life is a requirement for me in life.Which is exactly what led me to poly - becasue my husband and I are NOT compatible in bed (and it took us many years to figure out that was what was wrong) but we still love each other and want to be married.

[DrunkenPorcupine]

Ceoli's post # 2 was quite refreshing, and goes a long way toward letting us all off the hook. That is, it helps us to recognize that all of our relationships are both unique and ... well, just as they are. We don't have to force standard categories upon them.

Since this IS the topic of non-sexual intimacy, I'd also like to bring up the flip side of this, since I seem to be in the midst of this right now, and it's really delicate for me.

I don't like to "define" my relationships. I sincerely believe that EVERY relationship should be taken for what it is, without closing any doors. Doing so just stunts everything. I don't think there's a single aspect of any relationships that can't be addressed while respecting the will and values of the people in it. Perhaps two people might disagree on where that relationship is heading, but even that can be addressed.

But not everybody is poly. Even those that are set the boundaries of themselves to be different in every relationship. I have had issues with partners of my friends NOT being comfortable with the fact that I'm open with my relationships and feel jealous that I refuse to define them. Intellectually, I know that this is something in THEIR relationship that needs to be worked out, but it's not something I can avoid. People who are mono feel possessive sometimes, and they sometimes demand this sort of classification. As a result, I find that I do "define" my relationships though perhaps it's more complicated than using simple terminology, with all kinds of twists and turns. I love my friends with great, big portions of my heart, but saying this to a boyfriend who considers you a rival doesn't always convey the same sort of affection that I mean.

Granted, I'm also an iconoclast. I'm a political activist, and I like cutting right through bullshit. This isn't a poly thing per se, but my stance on relationships and defintions clashes with who I am, and while I don't consider it either unhealty OR damaging to myself or others, it DOES affect things and my relationship with folks, and potentially the relationships of people I care deeply about.

There's also the other side. Another friend of mine rigidly defines themselves. This friend also seems to have some sort of issues with intimacy and sexuality where they're defensive and guarded towards people they are sexually interested in (or defines that they might be) but can be extremely open, honest and intimate with people they ignore sexually.

I'm also extremely attracted to this last person, and to say that the defintion of the relationship doesn't affect me would be silly and dishonest. But since I love then and value them, I don't want to make them uncomfortable by crossing that boundary of sexual interest.

And I think that's what the "definition" and "categorization" of relationships are, ultimately. The understanding and honoring of boundaries.

[Rarechild]

I consider one of my greatest talents to be my ability to hug and hold well, in good times and bad, as I've had many dear friends tell me how much my hugs mean to them.

I have a few close friends that I feel very comfortable sleeping in the same bed with, cuddling with, kissing affectionately, (no tounge!), making appreciative comments on their attractiveness and so on, both male and female, who I have never and probably will never have sex with.

I am not afraid to enthusiastic full-body hug someone I've just met, or hold someone's hand while walking. Of course not everyone is comfortable with that, but for the ones I become intimate with and hold lasting friendships with, physical touch is a wonderful and beautiful way to express my love for my friends.

People don't get enough hugs. Or they get halfhearted, pelvis drawn back hugs. I hug hard and long, play with hair, get a good pull of their scent, and it feels really good and is an intimate, love-building experience. In this way I get all the hugs I want and need, and someone else goes away feeling cared for.

I think that so many people are so physically isolated in this increasingly detached world that they don't even know how to show affection unless it is sexual.

That is the one thing I find unsatisfying about this forum- I can only write my hugs to you all when I need one or think you do, and that's just not good enough. :)

[Ceoli]

And I think that's what the "definition" and "categorization" of relationships are, ultimately. The understanding and honoring of boundaries.

I think this speaks to the difference between when definitions and categories are prescriptive and not descriptive. Prescriptive definitions are about meeting outside criteria, while descriptive ones describe what is without applying criteria.

I've been contemplating starting a thread about this, but basically, when something is prescriptive, it seems that many of those boundaries are placed by factors outside the relationship and not grown from the needs of the people within the relationship. It's like trying to make a pre-set mold for the relationship to fit into. I've found it very difficult to thrive in prescriptive relationships like that.

[vampiresscammy]

can I hijack for a quick moment ehre please?!

it is soooooo awesome to hear theres someoen else out there who loves and enjoys hugs as much as I do, I miss being able to hug more freely and just simply when happy to see someone. I've noticed too, it seems most folks are no longer comfortable or okay with just a simple "i've missed you and i'm happy to see you" hug. when did we loose that? why? i miss those simple touches so much.

*Big hugs Rarechild*

done hijacking, just had to appreciate a fellow hugger in my midst! :)


I consider one of my greatest talents to be my ability to hug and hold well, in good times and bad, as I've had many dear friends tell me how much my hugs mean to them.

I have a few close friends that I feel very comfortable sleeping in the same bed with, cuddling with, kissing affectionately, (no tounge!), making appreciative comments on their attractiveness and so on, both male and female, who I have never and probably will never have sex with.

I am not afraid to enthusiastic full-body hug someone I've just met, or hold someone's hand while walking. Of course not everyone is comfortable with that, but for the ones I become intimate with and hold lasting friendships with, physical touch is a wonderful and beautiful way to express my love for my friends.

People don't get enough hugs. Or they get halfhearted, pelvis drawn back hugs. I hug hard and long, play with hair, get a good pull of their scent, and it feels really good and is an intimate, love-building experience. In this way I get all the hugs I want and need, and someone else goes away feeling cared for.

I think that so many people are so physically isolated in this increasingly detached world that they don't even know how to show affection unless it is sexual.

That is the one thing I find unsatisfying about this forum- I can only write my hugs to you all when I need one or think you do, and that's just not good enough. :)

[jenae]

My spouse (husband) is older and has many years experience with "omnigamy" as he calls it. He gave it up (under pressure from an unhappy partner) one partner before me. (That is, during a previous relationship, before we met.) Then we tried with me having a lover, but that was a disaster.

Here's my question: Sexual non-monogamy is so complicated. And in fact I don't find myself right now wanting that. But I have thought of something often enough recently that I just semi-jokingly revealed the thought in couple's therapy. The thought is: Maybe I need an EMOTIONAL 2nd partner. My husband and I have deep compatibilities but also sometimes explosive differences, and his dance card of people to deal with and relate to is too full, whereas I have a few valued friends but otherwise a more solitary, I guess you could even say slightly reclusive routine.

Bottom line is that I crave deep discussion and connectedness more than he does. Maybe this is just his nature and my nature. I sometimes think meeting someone for coffee or even just a correspondence with someone in a similar boat might help meet my needs. I suppose I could try to fill the need with more friends, but my feeling at the moment is that the deeper nature of relationship relating is more compelling. (I tend to "rescue" my friends with extreme, non-confrontational politeness, and feel safer and freer to be honest with my romantic partners.)

I saw that Clove (did I get that right?) was questioning whether there can be non-sexual expressions of polyamory, and that drew me in as a place to start as I check out this site for the first time.

Now my oh-so demanding cat is purring and stepping on my lap, so I'll sign off.

Best wishes to all.

P.S. Though I have been heterosexual in my history, and more readily imagine a second partner as male, I could also imagine a woman in that role, especially as what i'm contemplating is an intimate but not necessarily sexual relationship.

[cloves]

been reading through this again.

Porcupine, i think trying to "define" might be part of my problem. I appreciate your insight.

[aLABiMCpl]

Topics like this are why I come here. The bond that two people have is what I believe distinguishes Polyamory.

The wife and I have looked several times over the years for a friends first long term relationship, only to find people who will tell you what you want to hear just to bed you.

For us, it has never been about the sex.. Swinging has never even been an option.. which is kind of odd, because we are very (if not overly so) sexual with each other.

[Tonberry]

When I'm in love, it pretty much starts with non-sexual affection... What I think about is hugging, holding hands, cuddling... Actually, until I start a relationship, often it's like I'm not allowing myself to have sexual fantasies "without their consent".
Now, I realise doing so wouldn't be a problem, and I do have fantasies about perfect strangers, etc, but I guess what I mean is that they're so elevated in my mind that "base" feelings like sexuality are barely relevant. I love them on a different level.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense here. My point is that non-sexual affection sounds very much normal to me. When I develop feelings for people, it either start with non-sexual affection (sometimes with a small dose of sexual attraction too, but it's never on the front of my mind) or with sexual attraction. The first type is the one that has turned into long-term relationships for me. The other one has evolved into either a friend with benefits (has happened once) or (most of the time) nothing at all.

[Company]

As a method for showing affection, sex is easy. Too easy, probably. Do it right and everybody's happy. You've both hurdled trust and intimacy barriers together, and you felt great doing it. you've won.

Nonsexual affection takes work. You don't always win. You don't always "anything". It's easy to go back a step (which is actually very true for sex as well) and you don't have the same intense physical or ego incentive that you might with sex.

But because it can involve more forethought, because it can be elaborate and emotionally rewarding, it can say a lot more. I don't worry about receiving "pillow talk" when I'm getting a hug.

Touch has always been a severely intimate event for me. Even today, when coworkers pat me on the back or touch my shoulder, I have to ask them to step back a bit. These are people I've known for months, and I enjoy their genuine and friendly attention. Now I'm in a relationship with seven people where the sexual connection ebbs and flows, and right now because of stress and other complication it's definitely ebbing. Unfortunately the more platonic forms of touching and feeling are disappearing as well. I can handle not getting laid. I have a battery (http://www.sahadou.com) of websites (http://www.darknestfantasyerotica.com) that I use to assist (http://www.faustie.com) in that coping mechanism.

But not feeling some of my partners running their hands across my shoulders and hips, or not ever being able to hold a certain asian at night is really distressing. The lack of physical reassurance even has that doubtful part of me wondering if the relationship is still there. And with the ever disappearing commodity of time doing exactly what it does best-- becoming more scarce-- I'm certain that no amount of sexuality could satisfy the emotional need that I have for these people.