Reflections of a Liar

[veganchick]

Many of you have read my husband, Podunk's, thread. I didn't want to hijack his posts/advice with my story. But, as I start to feel at a loss for how to rebuild our relationship, I decided it was possibly time for me to put my thoughts out there as well and ask for feedback and guidance. I won't just let this relationship go. I think our relationship is truly special - even if my actions tell a different story lately. This is long, as I have been writing and musing a lot lately. Sorry.

From the beginning of my relationship with my husband, we have discussed polyamory. We actively explored swinging from the start and had a relationship with a couple that was quite close to the type of relationship we were looking for. While it was something we'd been interested in exploring, we didn't devote much time seeking out new relationships. Our 6 years together have been so full of adventure, happiness, growth and love. We have a family and that is our top priority. We've both been amazed at how compatible we truly are – we share passions, dreams, goals, hobbies and an amazing sex life. Others would likely laugh at the thought that we would even seek other partners. We definitely have (had) the whole package.

Over the years. We had mused that it would be much easier to explore our interests in others in a communal setting. My husband had spent some time when he was younger visiting several intentional communities. When the opportunity arose for the two of us to visit one of them for a weekend conference, we jumped at the chance. The timing was perfect as our youngest daughter would be away and we could take this week to ourselves. I felt rejuvenated there. Most of the time in my adult life I have felt separated from those around me – like I don't fit in. Whether that be because I am a vegan, a young mom, or radical living in a very conservative area. The people there “got us”. There was even a workshop on alternative relationships. I was elated!

On Saturday evening of the conference, the community held a dance party. I wasn't sure, at first, if I would even dance – shyness got the best of me and my husband isn't a big dancer. But, one of my favorite songs came on and I had to get out there. I was amazed when my husband joined me a few songs later. It felt so much better to be sharing that experience with him and I could really relax and enjoy the party. Song after song, the room grew so insanely hot that men and women started to remove their tops. I have no problem with public nudity but also have anxiety about my midsection. It's not this taut, smooth, bikini belly. It's chubby and shows signs of my pregnancies. So, I was honestly shocked when I met a guy there that showed continuous interest in me. When other men notice me, I usually write it off thinking “yeah, they think I have great breasts (or even legs) but they haven't seen my stomach yet.” The guy at the dance was persistent, though, and asked me to sit outside and chat. I had already mentioned this to my husband, who supportively introduced himself and joined in our conversation later. Shortly after, my husband and I left to return to our campsite. The guy met us at the conference the next day and joined us in the alternative relationships workshop and our a tour of another intentional community. I was feeling a little giddy. He must really like me and I,too, found him quite attractive. We all parted and shared contact information. I was tickled to find that he had friend requested me on facebook that night.

[veganchick]

Following the conference, podunk and I spent several more days hiking/traveling. I was still thinking of how amazing it was to meet like-minded people and about this potential new relationship. During a hiking break one day, he and I spoke briefly about thoughts on sharing sexual details with each other. This was all hypothetical, as we had only shared experiences through swinging. He expressed an interest in not knowing the details but wanting to know “how far things went”. I wasn't sure at this time if I would even meet up with this other guy again. I have several online relationships that are very casual and distant but still sexy. I put my “new friend” in this same category.

But, after talking about communities for days, podunk strongly urged me to return. I was extremely grateful for his support – and also very pensive. I felt as if I was asking a lot and hoped that I would be as willing to reciprocate when the opportunity arose. But, I allowed myself to follow up and my new friend,Paul, offered to “host me” for a stay. I felt thrilled and nervous at the same time. I was really reluctant to leave my husband home alone. This was the first time in 6 years! I justified this by telling myself that I needed to live a little. We both get frustrated with life in our little town and would love to live in other areas. We live here, however, because podunk's ex-wife settled here with 2 of our kids.

At this point, Paul and I were messaging each other through Facebook. Some of the conversation got very sexy. I was excited about the potential but also about visiting this community for a longer period of time. I didn't want for Paul to feel “put out” by my stay and assured him (and Podunk) that my first priority was living the communal lifestyle. While we had discussed sexual topics – I'd begun to be unsure if he was really still interested in me. I have issues with self-esteem/self-doubt. Days would pass with no communication and I'd assume he just wasn't interested. Right before I left, however, he sent me a message about being interested in hooking up with me. I honestly wasn't 100% sure that I would but I surely hadn't closed that door. I didn't communicate that with Podunk. I did speak with Podunk before leaving about agreements and limitations, though. He graciously offered that I was free to do as I felt – given that I did so safely and that I didn't rush in to something before I was ready.

[veganchick]

The day I arrived, Paul and I hung out in my guest room chatting for an hour and then things got heavier. I didn't have this passionate intensity that I'd hoped I'd feel but I told myself that perhaps that would come over time. We made out heavily and slowly got naked. He was somewhat excited and I grabbed the protection that I brought. He immediately had difficulty performing. This was to be the norm for the first few days of my trip. I was starting to feel pretty insecure at this point – blaming my shape/body for his issues. Sex with Podunk is profoundly wonderful but I also do not have his preferred shape. I focused on oral sex (with the protection on and without). By mid-week, I was anxiously avoiding sexual situations. I was far more interested in actual conversations/hanging out/date-like stuff. But, Paul's commitment to his family made this difficult and I understood that. Besides, I was making new friends and happy to be at the commune- I went swimming, took long walks in the woods, stared at the sky while swinging in a hammock and volunteered at community work projects. I ate lunch and dinner with different people every day.

During my stay, Podunk was always positive and happy for me. On Facebook, he had several posts about how he missed me (and how he was filling my void with cookies). I was feeling guilty even though he wasn't trying to cause me that emotion. I wasn't sure what all was going to happen during my stay and thought that I avoided saying anything sexual about my trip to him on the phone. He remembers me saying nothing happened, though. I'm only now coming to realize how naïve I truly was about the situation. My relationship experience is limited and, much like a teenager, I figured that I could satisfy Paul's desires while building upon my own desire to find companionship. I felt a real void but was optimistic that we would start bonding emotionally any day. I just had to show him how nice it is to connect/chat/laugh/touch. I hoped that we could share a bed just one day. Not for sex but for cuddling and touch. But it wasn't happening. There was nothing there.

It wasn't really until my last hours at the community that I started to realize that maybe attraction/chemistry can be instant -that waiting for a deeper relationship for sparks to fly isn't always necessary or realistic. I met a guy who was staying as a visitor on my last night – we chatted until after 3am. We talked a little about my experiences there and how Paul and I hadn't even shared a bed for one night. This new guy, Bob, was a little stunned. I admitted that I was really looking for that kind of connection but that it did not seem to be Paul's agenda. I told him I was OK with it, though. I didn't have huge expectations. In reality, I was a little disappointed and felt reassured that someone else who had dabbled in polyamory shared my longing for connection. I had started to worry that perhaps I was really being “too needy”. Being clingy is definitely one of my flaws.

[veganchick]

The conversation Bob and I shared did not revolve only around sexuality – we discussed many things and I truly enjoyed his conversation. I considered asking if he'd like to share a bed (in a nonsexual but close and intimate human way) but backed out. I had started my cycle and felt uncomfortable taking things to that level. Afterall, I had just met him. But then we hugged goodnight. And sparks flew. I'd only ever had that type of experience with Podunk. There was a magnetic energy that I could feel. I felt myself fall in to his hug. I let out an involuntary sigh. He felt real! I spent much of the next 24 hours (and following weeks) thinking about him.

How did I feel such a connection with Bob after only 5 hours and feel so little with Paul? I had a million thoughts going through my head. I felt a little ashamed for having hoped that sexual acts might lead to attachment with Paul. I thought about these things during the six hour drive home. I was actually excited to tell Podunk about my connection with Bob. I shared every detail – including that I considered sharing a bed and, had the situation been different, possible sleeping with him. “He'll be amazed that I found that “energy”. It's such a rare thing! “ I thought to myself. I later received an email from Bob expressing that the feeling had been mutual. I shared all of this with Po and details of the emails that followed. Yet, my response about Paul was that “nothing happened”. I'd like to think that said that to mean “there was nothing there in comparison”. But, I likely bold-faced lied for several reasons – mostly linked to my selfishness and immaturity.

I'm still really trying to determine why I didn't just blurt out the details. Heck, I wasn't even being asked details. I wasn't asked anything at all and still felt compelled to say “nothing happened”. A couple of reasons circle around in my head as I try to determine how I could be so hurtful. Why would I be afraid to tell him if there wasn't the connection I was hoping for? Parts of me realizes I was a little bit embarrassed about diving in head first. I think I was a little nervous about sharing what felt a little bit like cheating – hedonistic rather than relationship building. I panicked. I didn't know where to begin. We had talked about not sharing details and I was afraid of saying too much. Hurting his feelings. I was also felt guilty that I had this opportunity and he was left at home to take care of the house/ kids. He also didn't have a romantic interest and I felt a little bad that I was exploring alone. Why didn't I feel that same guilt about not being truthful?! Probably because of some selfish need to remain “pure” in his eyes. I did feel like I wanted him to know. I was sharing bits very very slowly. It took me an entire week to admit to a kiss. And by not sharing more at that point – I essentially lied all over again. I did want him to know but struggled to let it all out. And then, the more I kept it secret, the harder it became to say. I was ashamed of trying to maintain some false image of my trip but didn't really think of the true repercussions of my actions. I think I let myself believe that it would be easier for him to accept if introduced slowly. Clearly a sign of marked immaturity on my end. Perhaps fueled by jealousy at his admission to wanting a wild time with Meghan,I let out that more happened. Part of me was relieved to share more but part of me was still extremely nervous about saying everything. So, I continued to give half-truths and lies and we dug in to a very deep and passionate conversation. This continued for days as Podunk has explained in his post. I am not proud of this in any way. Had I just been honest and given all of the details on my 3rd chance, many issues could have probably still be worked through. But, I didn't. And it is true that during all of this, I went to far as to blame him for not seeing past my lies and realizing that more happened. His accounts of our conversations are accurate. I continue being asked questions as if there are black and white answers. For some there are. For others, I am still working introspectively to understand. And now that I've lied, my answers do not come across as sincere anyway.

[veganchick]

The situation is not helped by the fact that I have been sleeping very little, have no appetite, and now constantly shake. I understand his lack of trust in me and have agreed to to cut off communication with those at the commune and was eager to accept that I not visit that community again. I shared details of my lying with a number of people at the community and a friend that we share. Podunk also had access to the messages I sent and the responses I received. I am hoping that by sharing all of this we can find a place of trust again. There has been a lot of hurt passed between us. I have offered to move out – not out of spike and anger but out of hope that giving him that space would be healing for him. This was one of the initial requests he made. I would never take his home from him. He lives here near two of our children and has poured his heart in to repairing this house. He's done an incredible job. I struggle to find a way to give him what he needs right now. I am unsure, myself. He continues to tell me that we can never have that same love again and I continue to plead for another chance. I keep begging for him to tell me what I can do to begin the healing process. I'm making an effort at the moment to avoid conversation with him and allow things to relax. Trying to keep my distance. I'm hoping that this action isn't misconstrued as being not caring or unsupportive. I realize that I'm going to need to give a lot to prove myself. I can't just expect that he'll instantly forgive me and cling to all of the amazing details of our love. I'm starting to fully come to terms with the idea that I may never be forgiven. What a truly terrifying thought. Still, I have no one else to blame.

[veganchick]

One of the things I've worried about by starting this thread is that it will appear as if I am trying to play the "woe is me" card or that I am trying to make Podunk seem less of a victim. I truly hope that is not what you gather from reading this. I'm starting to learn that often my words do not truly convey what I intend for them to. :( I'm also learning that I am far more influenced by societal norms that I would have believed. And possibly that I am too eager to please - beyond my own comfort level. And that is just scraping the surface.

[Anneintherain]

One of the things I've worried about by starting this thread is that it will appear as if I am trying to play the "woe is me" card or that I am trying to make Podunk seem less of a victim.

Hey I'm on a roll offering unsolicited advice so I'ma keep on rolling.

I didn't get that. I also think Podunk is only as much of a victim as he chooses to be right now - his being hurt and sad is understandable, but he's not the victim of anything unless you're going to lie to him again. You seem to be trying to own your own shit. I will say that I think vowing to not be in contact with the people at the commune at all is a band-aid at best, because you weren't cheating, and labeling the people and space as "off limits" isn't really healthy, and it won't fix anything. Hopefully this is just temporary. I don't think having to fess up to a lot of people about your lies was cool at all. If they weren't intimate partners who had a say in your safe sex practices, it's not really any of their fucking business. I do wonder if it was your idea or if it was Podunk's idea in order to humiliate you a bit.

Obviously the one thing Podunk is saying over and over again is that he does NOT feel that you are showing remorse. It seems apparent in your writing that you do, and you're trying to figure out the whys. I don't know if you've asked him what you can do to show him that you are sorry, but whatever you are doing isn't coming through as sincere as you said. But dropping pursuing other relationships, including continuing chatting with other interests, is always a good start.

Maybe he expects you to act how HE would act if he was sorry, but of course if you don't know what that is, you can't show him you feel badly. If he is not being open to forgiving you now, I would not let him keep going over and over it, because it's not going to do anybody any good until you've both had some sleep and a chance to regroup. I don't see there is any reason for him to read any of your past correspondence anymore at this time regarding this issue.

I can imagine that if you said nothing happened with Paul, and then you talk about this AMAZING connection with Bob but say nothing happened there either, well how could his mind not go there and wonder if you were trustworthy at all. Maybe you lied too about that, maybe you had wild orgies all week and laughed at Podunk behind his back. I don't think any of that happened but that is what can haunt the mind of a person who finds out their trusted partner wasn't honest. It takes time to rebuild trust, and hopefully Podunk wants to take that time.

Sure your behavior was a bit shitty, but truth is, it seems very forgivable if he wants to forgive you. It seems while you work to figure out all the reasons you did what you did, and work on showing Podunk that you love him (and figure out how to show you are sorry without having to grovel), he needs to be working on how to love you as the imperfect person you are. His posts show he wavers back and forth, and I really hope you guys get the space and the sleep to be able to deal with this in a calm way. Really I would expect it to take at least a month or few to both feel calm and semi safe again, so hopefully you don't get too despairing if progress is slow.

[MichelleZed]

I don't think having to fess up to a lot of people about your lies was cool at all. If they weren't intimate partners who had a say in your safe sex practices, it's not really any of their fucking business. I do wonder if it was your idea or if it was Podunk's idea in order to humiliate you a bit.

I wondered this too, and was going to comment about it on Podunk's thread. Whose idea was it for you to write to all your new commune friends to tell them you were a horrible person because you didn't tell your husband you gave Paul a blow-job? I hope I'm not being too frank here... why would they care? They'd only just met you.

I think both you and Podunk had expectations that were too high for this trip. You'd met a new guy and felt some connection, you flirted online a little bit, then he invited you to visit for a week. This kind of scenario is not always going to work out. Sometimes, or even most times, it'll fizzle like it did with Paul. It doesn't mean you failed at poly. It's just how dating works--for everyone!

I think you need to let go of the shame you feel about what happened with Paul. It's okay that you gave him some blow-jobs even though you didn't feel like he was your soulmate. Connections build over time, and it's totally legit to explore a little physically with someone while you're trying to build a connection. It didn't work out with Paul in the end, but that doesn't mean that you should feel ashamed of the sex you had with him while you were getting to know him.

[veganchick]

Hey I'm on a roll offering unsolicited advice so I'ma keep on rolling.

I didn't get that. I also think Podunk is only as much of a victim as he chooses to be right now - his being hurt and sad is understandable, but he's not the victim of anything unless you're going to lie to him again. You seem to be trying to own your own shit. I will say that I think vowing to not be in contact with the people at the commune at all is a band-aid at best, because you weren't cheating, and labeling the people and space as "off limits" isn't really healthy, and it won't fix anything. Hopefully this is just temporary. I don't think having to fess up to a lot of people about your lies was cool at all. If they weren't intimate partners who had a say in your safe sex practices, it's not really any of their fucking business. I do wonder if it was your idea or if it was Podunk's idea in order to humiliate you a bit.

I wondered this too, and was going to comment about it on Podunk's thread. Whose idea was it for you to write to all your new commune friends to tell them you were a horrible person because you didn't tell your husband you gave Paul a blow-job? I hope I'm not being too frank here... why would they care? They'd only just met you.

This was initially suggested to me as a starting point for proving my remorse and beginning the process of restoring trust. I hoped that by showing him that I was willing to recount the same details with others who were familiar with my stay ( Paul, his wife, Paul's lover - Meghan, Bob and another man I met at the community who spent a lot of time discussing open relationships) that he would find security in knowing that they would respond with "the truth" if I was lying. Perhaps it was for embarrassment? I wondered aloud if I was only bringing more drama to the lives of those individuals who were only loosely involved at this point but I was (am) desperately to try to save my marriage. The honesty felt good, if nothing else.


Obviously the one thing Podunk is saying over and over again is that he does NOT feel that you are showing remorse. It seems apparent in your writing that you do, and you're trying to figure out the whys. I don't know if you've asked him what you can do to show him that you are sorry, but whatever you are doing isn't coming through as sincere as you said. But dropping pursuing other relationships, including continuing chatting with other interests, is always a good start.

I have already discussed with Paul and with Bob that I will be simplifying my emotional connections and that I will be stopping contact with them - as I am in need of focusing on my marriage. Podunk and I haven't been able to continue casual conversation well over the past week. Most topics lead to this. We have been sleeping separately since last Monday and spend most of our time at home in different rooms. I have taken over the bedroom and Podunk the living room. Our couch is wonderful but it's not a bed and after a while becomes painful. I offered our bed today and washed the sheets/comforters so that it was less of a "me space" and more of a comfortable clean space. I didn't realize that I still had a condom wrapper in my pillowcase. Eck. Here I was trying to do a nice thing and this happens. Garbage cans at the community I visited are not everywhere - this is a community that focuses on reusing, recycling and composting. I didn't initially know where to put the wrapper and then forgot it was there. God. I can't get anything right. I really should have paid more attention to that.

Maybe he expects you to act how HE would act if he was sorry, but of course if you don't know what that is, you can't show him you feel badly. If he is not being open to forgiving you now, I would not let him keep going over and over it, because it's not going to do anybody any good until you've both had some sleep and a chance to regroup. I don't see there is any reason for him to read any of your past correspondence anymore at this time regarding this issue.

I can imagine that if you said nothing happened with Paul, and then you talk about this AMAZING connection with Bob but say nothing happened there either, well how could his mind not go there and wonder if you were trustworthy at all. Maybe you lied too about that, maybe you had wild orgies all week and laughed at Podunk behind his back. I don't think any of that happened but that is what can haunt the mind of a person who finds out their trusted partner wasn't honest. It takes time to rebuild trust, and hopefully Podunk wants to take that time.

Sure your behavior was a bit shitty, but truth is, it seems very forgivable if he wants to forgive you. It seems while you work to figure out all the reasons you did what you did, and work on showing Podunk that you love him (and figure out how to show you are sorry without having to grovel), he needs to be working on how to love you as the imperfect person you are. His posts show he wavers back and forth, and I really hope you guys get the space and the sleep to be able to deal with this in a calm way. Really I would expect it to take at least a month or few to both feel calm and semi safe again, so hopefully you don't get too despairing if progress is slow.

I understand the pain and distrust. It's true that, at this point, it appears as if I'd just sleep with anyone. Especially the Bob scenario. It's not the truth but I can't fault the emotions. Time will tell if he can learn to trust me again. I have asked about ways to show remorse - I cry every day, can't eat...Podunk believes I do that out of self-pity, however, and not out of true understanding for the pain I caused him. I've been trying to explain that it's out of sorrow for the situation I put us in - for the pain he feels - for the loss of trust. Maybe I'm lying to myself? I plan to stick it out. I'm not sure how to know if he's going to forgive me? Should I know already? Knowing that this is a process and having you reiterate that is helpful.

[nycindie]

At some point, the other person has to make a choice to forgive. Until he does, no amount of trying to prove anything to him will be good enough.

Podunk seems to like this idea of being this kind of fatherly guide to you, the sage one who will encourage and direct you toward what he believes is good for your personal growth. Perhaps it was all too much for him to see you find your own way and make your own choices (and mistakes), however insecure and self-doubting you were. He certainly seems focused on how you have "done everything all wrong" and that it is absolutely irreparable.

Also, I have to say that, despite what he says about wanting poly, I keep having this sense that Podunk really prefers swinging. Perhaps the possibility of your having a deeper emotional connection with someone else, as in polyamory, hit him harder than he expected and feels like a threat to him in some way.

[redpepper]

Thanks for filling us in Veganchick. As I said before, I think this was a learning curve and really its a matter of forgiving, using what you've learned and having a good laugh and getting about moving forward.

I realize that that is super difficult and seems near impossible at the moment... Good luck.

(I would like to suggest having this moved to the blog section... that way you can write and the responses will be limited to what you allow... I have suggested this to Podunk also for his thread)

[Anneintherain]

Perhaps the possibility of your having a deeper emotional connection with someone else, as in polyamory, hit him harder than he expected and feels like a threat to him in some way.

I think she might be somewhat accurate about that, as Podunk's last post about how what you felt about Bob was focused on "She thought I'd be HAPPY knowing she felt just as thrilled about him as she feels about me?!?!?!" Pretty much seems as he could be very threatened about you developing a connection that you'd compare with your primary relationship. Certainly you could tamp down your enthusiasm a bit when discussing people you hardly know, but you seemed clueless that he would be less than thrilled. I imagine it means you didn't see indications that he would prefer things start off slow or be sexual only? Maybe he didn't know until it hit him, or the problems with Paul happened. But don't beat yourself up over being genuinely surprised and happy that connections can occur like that. You thought you and Podunk were in the same place, so of course misunderstandings were going to occur if you weren't. Add that to your honesty lack about what happened with Paul, and it is not a surprise you're facing a crisis. It is actually a beautiful thing that you love Podunk so much that you assumed he would be happy for you making a connection.

I do think that in a lot of cases where transitioning from mono to poly or swinging to poly, that things have a better chance of working out if it goes slow, and this wouldn't be the first time that people thought they were open, happy, and ready, then took the plunge into a pool that was way too deep for them to navigate.

I am going to play devils advocate for a moment. Bringing condoms home to dispose of at a later date - your explanation could make sense, or you could be having your subconscious sending you some strong signals, I mean you really didn't think about them until Podunk found them? After ALL the discussion about sex that's gone on in the last week or however long it's been? In his place, I'd be livid and assume the worst.

My ex was sure we were perfect together, and he'd say and say and say it, trying to convince both of us. His subconscious sent different messages. After we separated, he wanted to date me, and my one rule was that he showed up on time. He showed up late 2/3 times. What his heart wanted and what his soul wanted were different things. Just keep looking inward and making sure you aren't sending mixed messages where your word says one thing but your actions say another.

I am glad you are taking some space physically, please take care of yourself emotionally too. One or the other of you needs to refuse to engage in conversation past 9 pm when emotions overcome common sense.

[SNeacail]

Having been the one lied to over and over again, I truly get Podunk's side of this, including the petty lashing out. BTDT. My husband would try to "explain" and to me it just sounded like a justification. I don't really have any advice, but it may be time to stop appologizing and stop trying to explain. If he asks a specific question, answer it honestly, in the simplest, breifest way possible. Hide nothing, but don't go off on long explainations and speculations as to motive. You broke boundries and you lied, your realize it was wrong, you want to fix it, "end of story". It will take a VERY LONG time to rebuild the trust.

Bringing condoms home to dispose of at a later date - your explanation could make sense, or you could be having your subconscious sending you some strong signals, I mean you really didn't think about them until Podunk found them? After ALL the discussion about sex that's gone on in the last week or however long it's been? In his place, I'd be livid and assume the worst.

This kind of thing sends me over the edge. We do have an episode or two of cheating and LOTS of "little white lies" in our history. The first time I found an open wrapper, my heart shattered, my first thought was he had brought someone into our home and our bed. I was devastated. When I calmed down, my mind went to more rational explainations (he will use condoms on sex toys when he is alone) and I finally asked him about it and he did answer honestly. It has happened a couple more times and still the first thought is that he is cheating again. The last time, there was only a fleating reference to cheating, but then I just got on his case for not being considerate and leaving his trash lying around. Mind you we are a year into trying to fix our marriage.

Good luck to you both!

[BlackUnicorn]

I just wish to take a break from the relationship-oriented discussion so far and point out something that you've probably realized, something glaringly obvious in your posts.

Somebody pursues you even when they've seen your post-pregnancy belly, and you are so grateful and flattered that you think this is it! Even feel obliged to service them orally (was there any reciprocative touching there?) and cater to their issues around using protection.

Really? Tons of women out there are beautiful, sexy and fulfilled (including me) and have tummies that stick out. It's just the shape some women take, and even if you're not biologically programmed to gather your food storage around the waist area, pregnancy can do that to anyone.

You are not damaged goods who should seize every opportunity of someone showing interest in you just because you fear you are not beautiful and desirable enough!

If a guy expresses interest in sexing you up, it has nothing to do with connection or even compatibility, seeing the real you or whatever. You are not hideously deformed.

It can be very damaging to self-esteem and body image if your SO expresses clearly and repeatedly that you do not represent their ideal physique. Do you believe that people chat you up for your firm boobs/nice smile/whatever, REGARDLESS them actually thinking you are not, as a package deal, that attractive? That they would choose to go out with someone who has a flatter tummy or rounder arse?

Do you have an MO where you are so grateful to a guy for showing interest in you that you feel you have to sex them up for gratitude?

[Podunk]

Having been the one lied to over and over again, I truly get Podunk's side of this, including the petty lashing out. BTDT. My husband would try to "explain" and to me it just sounded like a justification. I don't really have any advice, but it may be time to stop appologizing and stop trying to explain. If he asks a specific question, answer it honestly, in the simplest, breifest way possible. Hide nothing, but don't go off on long explainations and speculations as to motive. You broke boundries and you lied, your realize it was wrong, you want to fix it, "end of story". It will take a VERY LONG time to rebuild the trust.

This is where I have done my own begging. Her words ALL come out as justification, regardless of the intent. I have asked her to stop trying, to just accept my anger and my hurt. She can't give me that, the attempted explanations and their re-writes just keep coming. It's too much, there are no simple words or actions that can fix this! It just makes me more and more upset. Veganchick tries to fix it. It is circular. This is not a new dynamic for us, just magnified by the current disaster.

And yes, it will take a VERY LONG time to move on from this. Until veganchick accepts that, there is no possibility of reconciling.

[veganchick]

This is where I have done my own begging. Her words ALL come out as justification, regardless of the intent. I have asked her to stop trying, to just accept my anger and my hurt. She can't give me that, the attempted explanations and their re-writes just keep coming. It's too much, there are no simple words or actions that can fix this! It just makes me more and more upset. Veganchick tries to fix it. It is circular. This is not a new dynamic for us, just magnified by the current disaster.

And yes, it will take a VERY LONG time to move on from this. Until veganchick accepts that, there is no possibility of reconciling.

You are right. I just spent 15 minutes typing a response only to realize that while apologizing it still might appear as a justification. So, I deleted it. I will probably choose to speak less as a result, as well. It is a HUGE relief to me to know that there is even a tiny bit of hope that with a lot of time/energy we could possibly reconcile. I agree that we should stop discussing.

[Magdlyn]

It can be very damaging to self-esteem and body image if your SO expresses clearly and repeatedly that you do not represent their ideal physique.

Yes, I sadly noticed that, in Podunk's thread, he felt compelled to mention how VC's body was not his ideal (even tho her figure and hair sounds hot as hell), and how thank god her ass is filling out a little as she gets older.

Isn't love based on what is inside, not the outside package? I have no idea how much Podunk talks about how VC isn't his ideal woman, looks-wise, but the fact that he brought it up on his thread, when it was rather irrelevant, makes me go, hmmm... How has this issue affected VC's self esteem?

[Minxxa]

This is where I have done my own begging. Her words ALL come out as justification, regardless of the intent. I have asked her to stop trying, to just accept my anger and my hurt. She can't give me that, the attempted explanations and their re-writes just keep coming. It's too much, there are no simple words or actions that can fix this! It just makes me more and more upset. Veganchick tries to fix it. It is circular. This is not a new dynamic for us, just magnified by the current disaster.

And yes, it will take a VERY LONG time to move on from this. Until veganchick accepts that, there is no possibility of reconciling.

Having also been in the position of trying to rebuild trust after being lied to... I totally get this. After learning about the story, all I ever wanted was for him to say "I'm sorry I lied. I panicked and then was too scared to go back and correct myself. I know how much this hurt you and I see how it would be hard to believe anything I say right now. I am going to work on myself and figure out why I did it so that I can try to come to the relationship with honesty and respect, and not react out of fear."

And then let me be a bit angry for a while, let me feel hurt for a while, and let me work through those feelings on my own.

I think the worst thing for me was when he'd expect things to bounce back to normal right away... act as if nothing was wrong. That's bullshit. I'm not going to cover up my feelings and stuff them back down to make you feel better. Plus that never works anyway because then it comes out later and usually in a not-so-productive way.

We need to be able to work through our emotions, to allow them to just be... so that we can move past them. Sometimes continuing the conversation (endlessly) keeps that from happening.

However... podunk also does actually need to work through the feelings. It can be easy to let the feelings run your thoughts, which cause more feelings, etc. etc. and you get caught up in a whirlwind that just accelerates your anger and hurt. This is not productive, though it is easy to do. The fact is that feelings come up, but we don't have to give them the gas to set a fire. We can just sit with the feeling, and see what it's doing in our bodies, and let it happen and eventually it will dissipate. It's only when we start tossing little "thought logs" on the fire that it seems to get out of control.

You are right. I just spent 15 minutes typing a response only to realize that while apologizing it still might appear as a justification. So, I deleted it. I will probably choose to speak less as a result, as well. It is a HUGE relief to me to know that there is even a tiny bit of hope that with a lot of time/energy we could possibly reconcile. I agree that we should stop discussing.

Probably a good idea. And maybe just taking some time to sit with your emotions, too. Feeling bad about hurting someone is a good thing, but only if you use that to see what happened and what was going on with you at the time. Guilt-tripping yourself endlessly won't help you as a person, or the two of you as a couple.

We are all human and we all make mistakes. If we can acknowledge our mistakes, take a good look at them, and maybe sometimes learn from them, that's about all we can expect.

Yes, I sadly noticed that, in Podunk's thread, he felt compelled to mention how VC's body was not his ideal (even tho her figure and hair sounds hot as hell), and how thank god her ass is filling out a little as she gets older.

Isn't love based on what is inside, not the outside package? I have no idea how much Podunk talks about how VC isn't his ideal woman, looks-wise, but the fact that he brought it up on his thread, when it was rather irrelevant, makes me go, hmmm... How has this issue affected VC's self esteem?


I noticed this too, and sometimes I don't think some guys get how what they say/do can seriously affect how we feel about ourselves.

An example, my hubs loves to look at women, and I don't mind at all. But sometimes he'll see some woman and say "not all that", and I'm looking at her thinking about how much more beautiful she is than me. So my mind takes that as-- if she's not all that, what the hell am I????

Yes, this is basic self-esteem stuff, and that's what I need to fix for myself, but the point is he is not even commenting on ME, and I think most likely doesn't even know that it is causing an internal self-esteem train wreck.

Honestly I wish we all (men and women) could get away from commenting/talking about outside appearances all the damn time and focus on the stuff that really matters.

[Carma]

Sometimes I suspect Sundance is just looking for the right magic words to get me to let go and be lovey with him again. His apologies are hollow, insincere. There is no remorse. He just wants things to go back to peaceful waters for him again. He won't allow me to process my anger or my pain, or give me any space. It's all about getting past that as fast as we can. He wants to hug me, wants me to look him in the eye, SEE his love for me.

He'll decry his innocence, every chance he gets. Usually this does more harm than not. I would rather him just not say anything. His most popular MO the past few days is to tell me "I see you are really in pain. You are crumbling. You need help. You need counseling. I'll go with you, I'll support you in any way I can."

Not saying you are doing any of this!!! Just wanted to show you the liar I'M living with. Who totally won't own up to his shit. :mad:

[River]

Also, I have to say that, despite what he says about wanting poly, I keep having this sense that Podunk really prefers swinging. Perhaps the possibility of your having a deeper emotional connection with someone else, as in polyamory, hit him harder than he expected and feels like a threat to him in some way.

An interesting line of inquiry worthy of an honest look and response from Podunk.

Veganchick also seems, perhaps, to have some fear/guilt/shame around exploring deeper intimacies outside of her relationship with Podunk, which likely contributed to her fear-based lying strategy. All very understandable stuff, if that's what it is. If this fear/guilt/shame is present despite Podunk's often enthusiastic supportiveness of his wife's other intimate explorations, perhaps Podunk can helpfully empathise with it and use this empathy as a basis for furthering forgiveness. And perhaps in this light Veganchick might find some self-forgiveness as well. For moving forward and onward surely must call for both of these forgivenesses, as much as the learning and growth experiences drawn from these difficult days.

Veganchick, I sympathize with your painful and difficult situation. (I sympathize with yours, too, Podunk.)

What I so wish for the both of you is that, Veganchick, you will encourage your "shaking" rather than resisting it. I mean, really let 'er rip! Your body is attempting to discharge a lot of stress and anxiety. Shaking is one of the ways the body does that. Crying helps, too.

[I once lay down on a floor and shook intensely for at least an hour and the experience released stress and anxiety in deep and ancient layers, freeing me of much anguish.]

I wish that Podunk would be completely supportive and loving to you as you shake and/or cry, and that he will forgive and heal ... And I'd love to see you two both open your hearts to one another in this difficult time.

It is clear to me that you each love one another very much.

[Podunk]

Isn't love based on what is inside, not the outside package? I have no idea how much Podunk talks about how VC isn't his ideal woman, looks-wise, but the fact that he brought it up on his thread, when it was rather irrelevant, makes me go, hmmm... How has this issue affected VC's self esteem?

Not nearly as often as I tell her how much I love her, how beautiful and desirable she is and how fortunate I am to have her in my life. We fell in love before we had ever seen each other in person. We have had six amazing years together. So, you don't need to preach about love being on the inside.

[Podunk]

Also, I have to say that, despite what he says about wanting poly, I keep having this sense that Podunk really prefers swinging. Perhaps the possibility of your having a deeper emotional connection with someone else, as in polyamory, hit him harder than he expected and feels like a threat to him in some way.
An interesting line of inquiry worthy of an honest look and response from Podunk.

I don't prefer swinging. You could count our swinging dates on one hand. It's not the deeper connection that hit me, it's the LIES AND BROKEN TRUST!!!

There would have been a lot to process here, that much is obvious. It was our first real poly experience, our first solo experience, it was 400 miles away and for 8 days! Add to that our personal histories. Outside of our few swinging experiences, each of us could count our romantic and sexual partners on one hand as well! How many people have come on here all broken up over a simple first date? This was a lot bigger than that!

And anyone looking at the situation would have known that, right? Who would have expected it not be an emotionally complex situation? Only person I know who saw it that way was veganchick. She was WRONG! Even more than me, SHE wasn't ready to handle this situation!

That is what led us to where we are today. I never had a chance to accept her week with Paul for what it was, never had a chance to process it in any reasonable or rational way. All I got was a huge shitpile of lies, deceit and broken trust and was left to figure it all out in the midst of that.

[SourGirl]

So Podunk Rulz, and Veganchick drools. Got it.

When you are ready to stop your holier-then-thou shit Podunk, you might start figuring the pieces of this puzzle out.
You have a anger and bitterness that you are more then entitled to. However, it`s become a source of pedestal-sitting for you.

If the past 6 years were sooooo fucking awesome, How does years worth of good decisions and closesness, get scraped for this moment in time, where she failed in your heart ?

The irony, is you then turn around, and want to say that all your compliments on her, shouldn`t be scraped, over some 'minor' comments about her not being enough for you.

I`d say the only one preaching is you.

[veganchick]

At some point, the other person has to make a choice to forgive. Until he does, no amount of trying to prove anything to him will be good enough.

Podunk seems to like this idea of being this kind of fatherly guide to you, the sage one who will encourage and direct you toward what he believes is good for your personal growth. Perhaps it was all too much for him to see you find your own way and make your own choices (and mistakes), however insecure and self-doubting you were. He certainly seems focused on how you have "done everything all wrong" and that it is absolutely irreparable.

Podunk has been very supportive of me over the years. Shortly after we met, I experienced a traumatic life event and he was there to pick up the pieces. He gave me them back to me and allowed me to assemble the puzzle as I'd like. In many ways, I have grown up with him - we met when I was 24. He is almost a decade older than me and had the opportunity to live some of my dreams before we met. I won't deny that I look up to him in that regard - but this is because he is so freaking groovy! From the beginning we had an uncanny connection - it surprised us even. We both share so many oddities and interests. We didn't have any idea we would mesh so perfectly! I do look to him for advice - but, I don't think it's in a unhealthy way. He's been there, done that. We are parents and I am certainly treated as an equal in our partnership.

Also, I have to say that, despite what he says about wanting poly, I keep having this sense that Podunk really prefers swinging. Perhaps the possibility of your having a deeper emotional connection with someone else, as in polyamory, hit him harder than he expected and feels like a threat to him in some way.

Swinging wasn't really working for us. Just like I mention about me personally in this thread - we both found that we craved connection. If anything, I think perhaps that maybe I am more of the swinger?! Something for me to think about. I didn't prepare for polyamory in a deep and meaningful way - even though I thought I had. I jumped right in to open sexuality all the while thinking to build a connection later. It's very hard to process at this time all of the emotions surrounding my acts. We may have found an interest in exploring things differently had we discussed my stay honestly when I returned. I didn't give us that option. I turned this in to a larger than life drama. The lies blur everything and make it difficult (dare I say impossible) to see what emotions are caused by which acts/breaches/lies.

[veganchick]

Yes, I sadly noticed that, in Podunk's thread, he felt compelled to mention how VC's body was not his ideal (even tho her figure and hair sounds hot as hell), and how thank god her ass is filling out a little as she gets older.

Isn't love based on what is inside, not the outside package? I have no idea how much Podunk talks about how VC isn't his ideal woman, looks-wise, but the fact that he brought it up on his thread, when it was rather irrelevant, makes me go, hmmm... How has this issue affected VC's self esteem?


Somebody pursues you even when they've seen your post-pregnancy belly, and you are so grateful and flattered that you think this is it! Even feel obliged to service them orally (was there any reciprocative touching there?) and cater to their issues around using protection.

Really? Tons of women out there are beautiful, sexy and fulfilled (including me) and have tummies that stick out. It's just the shape some women take, and even if you're not biologically programmed to gather your food storage around the waist area, pregnancy can do that to anyone.

You are not damaged goods who should seize every opportunity of someone showing interest in you just because you fear you are not beautiful and desirable enough!

If a guy expresses interest in sexing you up, it has nothing to do with connection or even compatibility, seeing the real you or whatever. You are not hideously deformed.

It can be very damaging to self-esteem and body image if your SO expresses clearly and repeatedly that you do not represent their ideal physique. Do you believe that people chat you up for your firm boobs/nice smile/whatever, REGARDLESS them actually thinking you are not, as a package deal, that attractive? That they would choose to go out with someone who has a flatter tummy or rounder arse?

Do you have an MO where you are so grateful to a guy for showing interest in you that you feel you have to sex them up for gratitude?

I have had self-image issues for years - weight fluctuations, young parenthood, early development/awkwardness. This was all before Podunk so I surely can't blame him for any of that. It has always been nice to be with someone who could share appreciation of different body types. I've expressed my self consciousness over the years and have always been reminded that I am truly loved for who I am. Not just a blanket statement of "Oh, VC, I love who you are inside" but a truly detailed expression of all of the parts that make me special. I'm regularly told how "cute" I am. It is true that Podunk is an "ass man". My feelings of inadequacy are my own. I own them. There is every real possibility that I seek sexual situations with others to feel attractive. But, it fluctuates -it's not a constant thing. My life is not held up over anxiety about my body. I'll hang out naked with anyone. The feelings of self consciousness come in waves. I don't know that what you express about having sex to show gratitude is something I feel I engage in. But, it's a thought for me to consider as I try to grow.

[veganchick]

So Podunk Rulz, and Veganchick drools. Got it.

When you are ready to stop your holier-then-thou shit Podunk, you might start figuring the pieces of this puzzle out.
You have a anger and bitterness that you are more then entitled to. However, it`s become a source of pedestal-sitting for you.

If the past 6 years were sooooo fucking awesome, How does years worth of good decisions and closesness, get scraped for this moment in time, where she failed in your heart ?

The irony, is you then turn around, and want to say that all your compliments on her, shouldn`t be scraped, over some 'minor' comments about her not being enough for you.

I`d say the only one preaching is you.

I understand how some of the things Podunk and I have posted may not accurately explain the situation. There is so much lost in online translation. That is one of the reasons I initially skipped posting. But, I allowed my desperation to get to me and decided to start my own thread. This was probably a mistake.

It is to be expected that Podunk is going to be angry and that his feelings are going to fluctuate day by day. This was his "serene" spot to escape the stressful conversations we are having daily and to share in a dialogue with others. Is he going to be mad as hell sometimes? I'd say. Is he going to try to talk things out in his mind and with others? Yeah.

I appreciate so many people caring about all of my issues and accepting me as human. Let's not forget the hurt I've caused, though. There are 5 stages of grief. This loss will take a long time to heal/overcome.

[Mohegan]

VC I am not going to get into the situation the two of you are dealing with, because you've gotten plenty of other input that you both have to wade through. I will however tell you this-a realization that did me very well.

When I met Karma 9 yrs ago, his friends, all of them, made sure to tell me I wasn't his type. At the time I had more of an athletic build from years of hockey and dance. I was goal oriented, knew what I wanted and did whatever it took to get it. I was not physically nor intellectually his type and they all made sure I was well aware. Karma never made a big deal over it, but it always stuck. When I got sick 3 yrs into things and gained 100 #'s in six months on hormone therapy, I was most certainly not his type. And again, while he worried over my health, he never made a big deal over it.

I always had it in my mind that I wasn't his type. That I wasn't what he wanted. When things got bad between us I was convinced the weight that never came off after the meds were stopped, was a large part of our issues. My once high self esteem was shattered.

As I emerged from the depression that brought on a lot of our issues, and I slowly relearned who I was, and we slowly rebuilt our marriage after years of lies and cheating, I asked him why he was with me. Why if I was so unlike his type, he had any interest in me at all. He told me that it was me he was drawn to and me he fell in love with, not my body. He said that when my confidence is high and I am fully myself, he couldn't deny the attraction that was there. He loves my athletic legs, knowing the power behind them ( for a martial artist I guess it makes sense that that is what he finds attractive). He loves the way I carry myself. He loves who I am as a person and how that light shines through me.

And with that, I began to love myself again. I began to find respect for the body that had so horribly betrayed me. Because with all the abuse it has taken, it is still carrying me through life. I began to no longer look at the negatives and instead at the positives.

And then I had the realization that put to rest the hurtful things said to me nine years ago. I may not be his type. I may not ever get my body back to what it was, and even then I may not be his type. But I am the woman that he asked to marry him. I am the woman he has stuck with through hell and back. I am the woman who gave opportunity after opportunity to leave and yet he chose to stay.

It seems to me, that I am more his type than anyone. It seems to me that to overlook the things that were once a young mans ideals, and find the things that that man loves more than anything else, makes me more his ideal than anyone could be.

Don't get hung up on what you're not and instead focus on what you are. You may not be his ideal body type, but ya know what, Karma isn't mine either. I always went after the football players, the hockey players, the chiseled farm boys and here I am more attracted to a skinny martial artist than any of the others. We are people, not types. We come in all sorts of packages and when love hits, we have no control over what package that love comes in.

And I lied, I will give a small bit of advice on the other situation. I will tell you that if Karma and I can make it through nine yrs of lies cheating, anyone can. As long as they are willing to be honest, and to forgive. And that forgiveness comes from both sides, you have to forgive yourself as much as he needs to forgive you. Right now the wounds are fresh, and they fucking hurt. You both need some time to lick the wounds and let them heal. Karma hated in when I told him I couldn't just get over it all. That I needed time. But time does heal.

I wish you both the best of luck.
Mo

[rory]

I had a thought reading: I'm not sure if there's something to it or not, feel free to discard it if it doesn't fit.

You were sexual with Paul, and hoped something more would evolve. But the sex was unsatisfying, and he didn't want more of a connection with you. I don't remember how much you've described how this made you feel. Sad? Ashamed? Disappointed? Rejected? Worthless? Maybe like your worst beliefs about yourself were confirmed (that you're not hot enough or lovable enough etc.)?

I was just wondering, if part of the reason you didn't tell these things to Podunk was that you feared that the fact that Paul rejected you (or you felt like he did) would make him see that you're not really worthy of his love and attraction (like you believe/fear you aren't?).

Maybe something to think about.

[SourGirl]

I understand how some of the things Podunk and I have posted may not accurately explain the situation.

It is to be expected that Podunk is going to be angry and that his feelings are going to fluctuate day by day. This was his "serene" spot to escape the stressful conversations we are having daily and to share in a dialogue with others. Is he going to be mad as hell sometimes? I'd say. Is he going to try to talk things out in his mind and with others? Yeah.

Let's not forget the hurt I've caused, though.



I said he has a entitlement to his anger and bitterness. I don`t think anyone is excusing you. Well, I wasn`t. Actions speak louder then words to me, and always have.

However he is barking at the very people trying to help him. He does not seem to want to see himself as anything other then the martyr.

Thing is though, you can`t control others, you can only control yourself. If he wants to feel better, he needs to look at his own actions, decide what is appropriate, and what isn`t. Decide what he can, and cannot handle, and legitimately stick by it.

Defending his own thread, then bashing you on yours, then going over and over the ; 'she did this, she did that' is only going to make him feel crazy.

Many people have tried to be kind to him with the various ways things can be seen, and he seems to have decided to rebuttal anything that has to do with shining a light on himself.

So if what he is doing is so awesome, hows that working out for him ?

He might want to absorb what people tell him here, and wait to reserve judgement on how great, awful, or preachy the advice is. Trying something different, then what he has previously been doing, might get him somewhere he hasn`t been before.

If you are looking to earn brownie points defending him, kudos. Hope it works. This feels odd posting like he isn`t even here, so I`ll bow out now.

[RunicWolf]

Having been cheated on, and cheated myself, I know how long and hard it can be to rebuild trust. However both sides have to budge on the issue if anything is to get resolved. Forgiveness and communication are key.

I'd say more, but I don't want to stir up trouble and drama.

[redpepper]

Having been cheated on, and cheated myself, I know how long and hard it can be to rebuild trust. However both sides have to budge on the issue if anything is to get resolved. Forgiveness and communication are key.agreed. This is what I was saying earlier. However, it is important to go through all the emotions to end up in the other side. Its a process.

[JnR]

Oh boy, I feel for you Veganchick and I also feel for your husband. Too many times have misunderstandings or miscommunications or insecurities have gotten my husband and I into huge fights, where we thought too that it is time to throw in the towel and call it a day. He and I are so compatible on so many levels, and our day to day life is amazing, but when we get into confrontations it seemed like we were both coming from a different planet. I would beg, apologize, explain and he would give me the silent treatment, say I was just trying to justify my behavior, I was not truly sorry. Ugh! :( However, the last big fight we had I came across this quiz called the Languages of Apology, I actually think I found this here on the forum :) While not all of this quizzes on the internet help or are factual, this one hit home for both of us. Even though we love each other like crazy and get along 95% of the time, we have completely different styles of apology. I took it, and once I got him to calm down (after days of the silent treatment from him), he took it as well... it was a big WOW and then led to a lot of meaningful and heartfelt discussions where both of us could see where the other person was coming from and how our different needs in respects to apologies were a barrier to our communications in resolving problems. Give it a try, it definitely helped us to see our differences. Good luck!

http://www.5lovelanguages.com/assessments/love/

[Dirtclustit]

the opposite of hypersexual would be hyposexual.

Maybe not exactly the opposite but closer to overly sexual and under. That's all I should

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