NRE or falling in love?? feeling tortured!

[beginninglove]

hi all, so happy to be perusing this forum. i already feel better, but still feel like i need some insight on my situation.

here's the summary: i am a queer woman, partnered for 5 years. always thought i might be poly but got into a mono marriage with my current partner Alex, even though we are not very sexually compatible, thinking i could make it work. eventually i cheated on Alex and we re-negotiated and did a lot of work to improve our communication and open things up.

i am now seeing someone who started out as just a fuck-buddy, i'll call her Sam, but after having mind-blowing sex with Sam somewhat regularly for the past couple of months i have started developing feelings for her. i have tried my best to keep things as casual as possible without emotional ties but the more time and sex i have with her the more my feelings deepen.

now i am away on work travel and Sam has another fuck-buddy staying with her from out of town and i feel awful. i have this terrible craving/withdrawal feeling and terror that Sam is off with someone else and this whole thing has taken on this intense prominence in my mind. i have even avoided Sam's phone calls while i've been away because i've felt so vulnerable and didn't want to break down or get intense with her on the phone while she has someone else staying with her.

i'm trying desperately to try and figure out what this means, what i want, and what i should do. i read another thread about how its not really possible to feel NRE for more than one person at a time, and now i feel obsessed with the idea that maybe i am in this alone and she is off falling in love with someone else, who is somewhat more available to her since i have a lot of agreements i have to honor with my primary partner that sets a lot of restrictions on how much time i have been able to spend with Sam.

Am I just being ridiculous and obsessive? is this how NRE just is? i have talked to Alex a bit about how I am feeling but feel terrified to talk to Sam about it, for fear of totally freaking her out. She has said she is content with this arrangement, has a hard time with missing me sometimes but thinks its worth it.

help??

[AnnabelMore]

Try thinking about it this way. What if everything was exactly the same except you were single. What would you do and think then? It's ok to be falling for someone when you thought it was just going to be casual, it happens to people both poly and mono all the time.

The fact that she says she has a hard time missing you makes me think she won't freak out if you let her know that you might be crushing out on her just a little. Let her know that you really like her and ask if she'd like to go out for coffee sometime (you don't even have to call it a date). :)

[nycindie]

I think a lot of the time, people who want to keep things casual really want to keep things casual. I am still a bit broken-hearted about a guy I was seeing who wanted it to be FWB and when I told him of the deeper feelings I had for him, he broke it off. Upsetting, to say the least. I am not projecting my relationship onto yours, but I know that around that time, I was starting to feel this frantic longing for him, it was torture when I didn't see him for a while, and when I look back on it, I see I was a bit out of control. Now I'm not sure I was falling in love with him. The sex was so-o-o-o good, probably the best I'd ever had at that point, and I was obsessed. Or possessed, maybe, LOL.

I think you should do what you can to get both feet on the ground. Use the time apart to take care of you, connect with Alex, cultivate a fuller sense of satisfaction within yourself, and get some exercise to dissipate some of your energy. Try connecting with more people around you, and do fun things that you love, so that you aren't hanging on every moment you will have with Sam as the be-all and end-all. Eventually you will just settle into a feeling of okayness. It will still be exciting, but not all-consuming if you work at it. Just try not to give in to that frenzied neediness.

[redpepper]

Yes I think you are obsessed. Is that a bad thing? No, I don't think so. Its what us humans do... The thing is though that the part of your obsession that says that she is yours; "how could she possibly..." or "how could this other person think that they could be near her like I am" is what needs to be addressed. She is her own person and you yours. She is not yours to keep close. You can have close moments when you are together and even over text, but she is capable and going to have them with others too. Just as you can and have.

I also suggest you concentrate on yourself and your other relationships of every kind. Its important, I think, to keep a balance of all things in life and it sounds like your balance needs a bit of re-balancing.

If I were in your situation I think I would call her up in a good moment and wish her well with her guest and tell her you will see her when you get back. Then I think I would text her every day, say hi, put lots of smileys on there and say what you are doing and wait it out until you get home and then some. I think I would go home and concentrate on what I have been neglecting as a result of the NRE of having this woman in your life and try not to obsess about her. Then I would see her for coffee, a meal, whatever and ask her how her time went and catch up... see how you feel and ease back in or pull away accordingly... if you feel like you want to ease back in I think I would then tell her what went on for you and how you feel about her and see how that goes.

[River]

Beginninglove,

How are things with Alex? He/she (?) gets only a brief mention, which centered on sexual incompatibility. I get the impression you're not happy being with Alex. I could be way off the mark, though. Who knows?

Playing with Sam seems like playing with fire. This is exactly why I don't do the fuckbudy, casual sex, thing. If the sex is good then I'm emotionally involved. If I'm not emotionally involved, the sex is no good (for me!). If it is a relationship I want, with sex included, then it's best to start out as good friends (for me!).

Maybe you can transition from sex buddies to love partners. Maybe not. But what is the deal with Alex? Where does Alex fit in to this picture?

[Magdlyn]

First of all, it's not impossible to be in NRE with 2 people at the same time. Of course, unicorns in triads can feel this. I also felt it, not as a unicorn, but when I had been with my current gf for 3 mos, I met a guy and had NRE for him as well.

Just sayin.'

[nycindie]

First of all, it's not impossible to be in NRE with 2 people at the same time.
I was going to mention this, too, but forgot. I never heard of that idea before, that you can only have NRE for one person at a time? Seems a rather ridiculous idea, as if our emotions can only be measured and parceled out a certain way. I don't even think this applies here. BL, if you were worried that Sam was feeling NRE for you and then would switch to feeling NRE for someone else, just put that idea out of your mind. First of all, you don't know what her thoughts or feelings are, if she's even experiencing NRE with anyone, and you have no control over that anyway. All you can do is take care of yourself, strive to be as stable and balanced as you can, and take care of the people in your life by listening, loving, and responding with caring. Everything else will fall into place.

[Carma]

At the beginning of our V, I had NRE with my bf AND a renewed, crazy gratitude-love for my husband, for agreeing to it. I was walking on cloud nine! Even though it was an adjustment for my husband, there was no way he could deny me the happiness I was feeling. He couldn't help but feel compersion when he saw how giddy I was.

Naturally there were waves of jealousy that followed, which complicated things and often made for a nasty backlash. But we worked through that to reach another good place, again and again. We're still on the roller coaster (off topic from this post) but I just wanted to agree with NY and Mags -- NRE CAN "swing both ways." ;) It did for me, anyway.

Glad you're here. Good support and lots of hope here, no need to feel tortured any longer. You are not alone. Welcome. :)

[OpenandCountry]

At the beginning of our V, I had NRE with my bf AND a renewed, crazy gratitude-love for my husband, for agreeing to it. I was walking on cloud nine! Even though it was an adjustment for my husband, there was no way he could deny me the happiness I was feeling. He couldn't help but feel compersion when he saw how giddy I was.

Naturally there were waves of jealousy that followed, which complicated things and often made for a nasty backlash. But we worked through that to reach another good place, again and again. We're still on the roller coaster (off topic from this post) but I just wanted to agree with NY and Mags -- NRE CAN "swing both ways." ;) It did for me, anyway.

Glad you're here. Good support and lots of hope here, no need to feel tortured any longer. You are not alone. Welcome. :)

I am experiencing the same thing with my bf/husband right now! It's like I have NRE when I'm with either of them! @ the OP, you are definitely not alone, and I wouldn't let anyone else determine what is "possible" or "impossible" to feel about someone else. Rather, what is the best way to handle what you're feeling in a relationship? Again, I love nycindie's suggestions. :)

[Casey]

The whole falling for fuck-buddies does happen.

That's how Shannon and I got together. After we had both successfully had many fuck-buddy type relationships before. Although even then we still denied it for months (to the extent our mutual friends declared we were dating no matter our protests). Even then I didn't believe them I had "real" feelings for Shannon until a pile-up on the motorway we got tangled up in - I was putting it down to NRE, and all our mono friends just not understanding.

But, perhaps consider this a time to re-evaluate other relationships, of all sorts. Start pouring energy into them and see what happens. Re-direct some of the NRE into your long term partner, into others too. Shannon always knows when I have a new one, as the way I act changes, I become more attentive and loving, as I begin using the NRE in my other relationships.

[beginninglove]

wow, this thread has been incredibly helpful to me already. THANK YOU!!

the insight about my relationship with Alex is fairly right on. i don't think i have been putting enough energy into that relationship, partially because i have been feeling ambivalent about the relationship in general, and partially because i probably have been out of balance with getting really focused on my NRE for Sam. generally speaking, there has been a lot of processing with Alex and very little sexy energy, but i do feel a renewed love for her since we have been exploring this together and our communication has improved tremendously. i can totally see why people describe this as a path of spiritual growth.

a bit of an update: recently Sam did tell me that she has stronger feelings for me than "fuck-buddy" status. in fact, she told me that she thinks she is falling in love with me. i was floored and muttered something about how i had been thinking i was feeling that too, but to be honest i wasn't expected her to say anything like that so i was really taken aback. since then, i've been feeling really intensely about her, missing her when i haven't seen her for days, but trying to be respectful of the boundaries and agreements i have set up in my primary relationship with Alex.

i guess my question is, when i do feel like i want to see more of Sam than my current agreements with Alex permit, how do i give myself permission to ask that of Alex when i know she already stretching herself A LOT to even be exploring this with me? i don't want to get back into the habit of not being honest about what i am doing, which was what i used to do before exploring being poly. i find myself being tempted though, to see Sam without explicit permission from Alex, and that is terrifying. i DON'T want to go back to my old ways.

[nycindie]

Wait a minute - you have to ask Alex for permission each time you want to see Sam? Why??!!!

Edit: Oh, I just reread your post and so I gather that you and Alex have an agreement regarding how many days per week you see Sam, or something to that effect. Sorry, I thought you were going to Alex before planning each date and asking permission.

I think there is probably a moment in every relationship when re-negotiations take place regarding boundaries. But it doesn't seem like you're really ready to re-negotiate yet, and are just trying to be prepared for when you do. I would say to get real clear about what you want, first and foremost. If you just have in your mind some vague concept of seeing Sam more often, it will make it a little hard to express what you want. So take some time to feel what you feel and see what you want before asking for changes.

[beginninglove]

I do have to ask Alex for permission each time I want to see Sam. That is our current agreement. I guess becuase she wants to be looped in at all times. It has been very frustrating for me, and I suppose I just haven't had the courage to make a strong request to revisit this agreement because Alex is so adamant about needing to rebuild her trust for me and wanting to have a say in everything I do with Sam. Does this seem crazy???

[beginninglove]

Here's another aspect of what is coming up for me... I have been seeing Sam and having this really mind-blowing sex, and often I tell Alex beforehand "I won't see Sam for such-and-such amount of time after this" but then I find it REALLY hard to stick to that. Am I being selfish and just need to suck it up and not see Sam for the period of time I said I wouldn't?? Or is it fair for me to say, wow, I thought I could go that long without seeing her but I really want to see her again sooner.

I'm feeling like I am haivng a hard time knowing what I want, asking for what I want, and sticking to what I say I wanted.

[AnnabelMore]

The thing about poly is that it's about loving, real, important relationships. I get that that wasn't the "plan" with Sam but it's what you've got and you'd do well to honor it. That means, to my mind, letting it grow at its own pace. Not getting sucked into NRE and forgetting about Alex, by any means, but also not letting her entirely dictate what pace is ok for *your* feelings... I mean, how must that feel for Sam?

Do. Not. Lie. To. Alex. You'll be violating both her trust and Sam's by saying you're in an honest, open relationship and then not living that way. Do the brave thing, the thing that will ultimately strengthen your relationships rather than weaken them, and just communicate!

[AnnabelMore]

Or is it fair for me to say, wow, I thought I could go that long without seeing her but I really want to see her again sooner.

Um, YES, it's ok to express your feelings and ask if compromise if possible. What would make you think it wasn't? Are you holding onto guilt from the cheating, or do you often have problems expressing your needs, or is this just a hang-up related to poly?

[nycindie]

. . . often I tell Alex beforehand "I won't see Sam for such-and-such amount of time after this" but then I find it REALLY hard to stick to that.
Why, when saying you want to spend time with Sam, do you add in the idea that you will go a certain amount of time before you see her again? That sounds like you feel really guilty about what you're doing. You know, like when Lucy wants Ricky to put her in his show, she says, "I promise I won't ask you again." It's a childish way of asking for what you want.

I think that, instead of requesting permission from Alex as if she's your mother, figure out how often you want to see Sam, and stick to it. Then just set up an agreement that you will plan ahead, put it on the calendar, etc., so that Alex is aware of when you'll be with Sam. Set up a Google calendar. So, let's say that you and Sam want three nights a week together, or two nights and one full day on the weekend, or an overnight somewhere in there, whatever. You can designate specific nights for that or play it by ear, but Alex will know she agreed to that amount. This way you don't feel like you're this bad girl begging for a little fun. Then, if there is something Alex wants to do and it happens to be a night you have scheduled to see Sam, you can negotiate: "Well, that is my night to see Sam, but I'll see if she'd be okay with switching it because I'd really like to do this with you."

Just approach it like adults who are making their own choices, since that's what you are, not like you're doing this terrible thing and are hoping to get away with it. Ultimately, if you are acting ethically, honestly, and without hiding anything, the only thing left is for Alex to forgive you fully and completely -- and that's up to her -- so you can both move on.

[AutumnalTone]

...i read another thread about how its not really possible to feel NRE for more than one person at a time....


That notion is pure bullshit. It may be true for some individuals--it certainly isn't true universally.

[redpepper]

It sounds to me like the three of you are just about at the point where sitting down and hashing out times to see each other on a regular basis is in order. No one has the right to give the other permission, but its time to get real here and come forward with what you all want to see happen. Each person will have to be willing to make themselves vulnerable about their feelings and needs in this in order to go beyond compromise into agreements about time and boundaries.

It does sound lilke you feel guilty. I suggest dumping that feeling if you can and be empathetic instead. It isn't useful in negotiating to feel guilty because people who feel guilty usually make promises and agreements they can't keep. It pepetuates guilt when they find themselves unable to keep them.

The best one can do with that, I have found, if you can't drop the guilt, is to agree as you see fit and if it doesn't work then say so and change it again. Make sure that everyone knows that negotiations are fluid and everything is on trial for now so that there is room to come back to the drawing board and so everyone knows that it is expected.

There should be room for "mistakes" and trying stuff out as long as it doesn't get to a place where someone becomes resentful because they have neglected to speak up when its not working for them. They are responsible for that. No one else is. Good luck :) hard work ahead :)

[beginninglove]

Wow. This is really super helpful and I am SO glad I found this forum. Nothing has been more helpful to me in this process so far than reading your words here and on other threads. Thanks again.

I really appreciate how you all are able to call me (and other people on this forum) out on stuff, in a straightforward yet supportive way. I DO feel guilty about what I am doing, and I DO end up asking Alex for things like a bad girl asking for permission to be naughty. It's true, it doesn't feel good to anyone. I suppose this may be left over from old ways of being (i.e. lying and cheating) and also from the sense that Alex is agreeing to things because she is afraid of losing me rather than really truly being invested in poly. But the reality is she probably would lose me if she were to insist on being mono, so I guess she is also choosing what she feels is best for her in this situation.

By the way, I hear that a number of you are objecting to the idea that someone cannot feel NRE for more than one person at a time. That is not my personal thought or opinion, just something I heard on a clip of a researcher speaking about different types of love (there's a link to it on this forum somewhere), so it was just something that had just stuck in my mind. I get that people have had experiences that contradict this idea. I am just so IN IT with Sam and I was fantasizing that maybe she only has NRE for me, but that is not very mature of me and totally contradicts what poly is about, I get that. She is so super hot and amazing and we have INCREDIBLE sex, and its okay that other people find her hot and amazing, and maybe even have incredible sex with her too. ;)

[beginninglove]

As an aside, this morning when Alex was feeling testy about me making requests to spend more time with Sam, she said she thinks I might be a "sex and love addict". I did a serach for this term on the forums but had a hard time finding anything specific. Maybe this is another thread, but what do folks here generally think about that concept. It seems to have such a negative connotation but I wonder if anyone thinks there is merit to the concept?

[AnnabelMore]

As an aside, this morning when Alex was feeling testy about me making requests to spend more time with Sam, she said she thinks I might be a "sex and love addict". I did a serach for this term on the forums but had a hard time finding anything specific. Maybe this is another thread, but what do folks here generally think about that concept. It seems to have such a negative connotation but I wonder if anyone thinks there is merit to the concept?

*rolls eyes* Yes, sex addiction is a real thing. You can look it up. No, you're not an addict for falling in love and enjoying sex with your gf. Unless the whole human race is, in which case it's meaningless. That was either dumb, silly, or just mean of her to say.

[nycindie]

As an aside, this morning when Alex was feeling testy about me making requests to spend more time with Sam, she said she thinks I might be a "sex and love addict".

Wow, that's such a passive-aggressive remark to make. Sounds like she didn't really want to discuss it and so she took a potshot at you - an easy way to plant a seed of insecurity or self-doubt in you. Not nice at all.

[beginninglove]

thanks, i thought that's what folks would generally say. i'm just gonna ignore Alex's comment as her trying to get a rise out of me and move on. i'm pretty sure i'm not a sex addict, i just happen to be having a lot of great sex with Sam right now...and that's a FABULOUS thing.

[nycindie]

i'm just gonna ignore Alex's comment as her trying to get a rise out of me and move on.

Why ignore it? Why not tell her you don't appreciate such remarks and ask that if she has a problem with you to verbalize what it is directly? You sweep little shit like that under the rug and, believe me, it will build up! Then someday you'll regret never having put the kabosh on it sooner. You won't do either one of you any good by allowing stuff like that.

[beginninglove]

damn, you are so right. thank you for calling me out!

i'm realizing through this feedback that i need to get a LOT clearer in my communication with Alex and let go of guilt and also not allow her to jab at me or use my guilt to try and make me feel bad. i have noticed that i have had quite a bit of self-doubt come up around this stuff (i.e. am i just being selfish? am i a good enough communicator to make this happen in a healthy way? am i too used to getting what i want and am thus being a brat for asking for it when it hurts her? etc). Alex has been talking to MANY of her friends about what has gone on between us as we have been exploring non-monogamy, and i think its easy for a lot of our mono friends to say judgmental things and help her feel like she's really going way out on a limb here in accommodating my needs. i've noticed myself avoiding particular friends (mostly HER friends) as a result.

[rory]

As an aside, this morning when Alex was feeling testy about me making requests to spend more time with Sam, she said she thinks I might be a "sex and love addict".
Others have already commented one possibility: that she's wrong and wants to make you feel bad (unconsciously or consciously). There's another option though: that you are (or she thinks you're) a NRE addict and she's trying to point that out. Or maybe not an addict, but that you're letting NRE cloud your judgement.

I don't know if there is truth to that, but this makes me feel that there might be
Here's another aspect of what is coming up for me... I have been seeing Sam and having this really mind-blowing sex, and often I tell Alex beforehand "I won't see Sam for such-and-such amount of time after this" but then I find it REALLY hard to stick to that. Am I being selfish and just need to suck it up and not see Sam for the period of time I said I wouldn't?? Or is it fair for me to say, wow, I thought I could go that long without seeing her but I really want to see her again sooner.
I agree with the comments others made about your way of communication here. But I wonder if you're really just making unrealistic promises and want to see Sam, or if NRE makes you feel you'd like to spend every waking moment with her, and Alex is worried that's what you'd do if she gives up the control.

How long do you promise to spend apart and how much time would you like to spend with Sam? Are you keeping a clear head with the NRE (i.e. evaluating whether how you want to act is reasonable towards everybody), or do you think your every feeling is justified and you should follow it? If NRE was making you feel like you want to spend pretty much all your free time with Sam (and she was available), would you stop yourself and take Alex into consideration?

I'm not saying you're being inconsiderate in NRE: I don't know what's going on. I'm just saying you may be, and that maybe you should consider that option, too.

[redpepper]

Couple of things; your gf would do better to talk different people, not the friends who are giving her negative advice and making unhelpful comments. Some mono people like to get together and find ways to degrade what poly people are working towards... some poly people like to get together and bash monogamy. Neither is helpful. All is damaging. I think she needs to find friends that are willing to investigate and wonder about poly in order to be helpful. It sounds like none of them are knowledgeable about poly... maybe she should read here. Our biggest tag here is "mono/poly." She would be in good company.

I think if someone were to say what she did to you about being addicted to love, sex, whatever I would wonder what is going on for them. I think I would let her know how it made you feel to be accused of that and ask her what is going on for her. You are not addicted to anything, as others have said. You are in NRE.... maybe she could find out more about that. You could also ask her to use different words when she is frustrated, feeling left out, feeling threatened. I find that giving people the words that I understand and can hear without feeling defensive and hurt really helps.

I would say something like, "you know, I am having a really great time with so-and-so and I would feel much better about it if you were happy for me, but if you aren't and are going through some stuff about it, I would much rather know what that is like for you so I can support you rather than hear words that seem to be coming from a place of you wanting me to feel ashamed. What's going on for you? Tell me how you are feeling rather than putting it on me please. I would like to work on this with you."

I don't think getting pissed off with her is compassionate towards the negative feelings that to me, she quite obviously has. Communication becomes better when one empathizes I find. It means you will have to put your feelings aside in order to get at the bottom of hers, but the end result, I have found in doing that, is that I feel better than I would of if I hadn't of considered my partner above my self first.

[beginninglove]

thanks for the solid words of advice. i do think it is just NRE and i don't think i am "addicted" to it, whatever that means. i've thought a lot about this over the weekend and realized i would not spend all my time with Sam even if Alex was not in the picture. which brings me back to something i said in an earlier post, which is that i realize i am just feeling ambivalent about my relationship with Alex in general. i was feeling this before i met Sam and this is not about wanting to be with Sam, its about me not wanting to be in a committed relationship at all. i have been feeling this for about a year now, and i'm terrified to do anything about it. i have a ton going on in my life right now, and i'm generally feeling pretty stressed out. but everytime i sit with my feelings about Alex, i feel like i want to get out. and i keep convincing myself to stay. i thought that if i had someone like Sam in my life I would feel happier with Alex, because I would be getting those needs met elsewhere. but Sam is perfectly meeting those needs, and i still feel unhappy in my realtionship with Alex. i realize that it was naive to think that just I could get certain needs met elsewhere and then *poof* my relationship with Alex would be great again. it was better for a minute, but now its just hard and stressful again. i don't want to have sex with her. we have been in couples therapy for four years with a really amazing therapist, who i know is part of the reason we are still together, because she helped us with our communication so much. i want to leave but i don't know how. i'm afraid of hurting her, i'm afraid of the gauntlet i feel i am going to have to endure from our friends and community and just generally the shitstorm i imagine will ensue. i keep telling myself maybe i should stick it out just a little longer, maybe things will get better. but i just keep feeling stuck and unhappy.

[nycindie]

Mmmm. The problem with hoping things will get better is that they don't get better all by themselves. Believe me, I know from experience. So, I think, even though you have been in therapy for four years together, it's still not working either because you two haven't gotten to the core issues, or it's done and time to walk away. If you "always feel like you want out," that should tell you something. But it's not anyone else's place to judge you if you do end the relationship. I hate when people get like that.

Another thing to consider (and address in therapy) is whether your feeling stuck and unhappy has to do with Alex, or if it's something you bring with you to every relationship. Maybe that has nothing to do with your current situation, and is a learned pattern you've habituated yourself toward. Look back at past relationships and if they had a similar downward spiral, that may be something to look at.

I think you should also acknowledge yourself for connecting the dots and making this realization. Some people go 20 years in shitty situations always hoping it will get better, and it goes nowhere. Also, it's really fucking awesome, I think, that you have seen it's not about being poly or mono that will make your relationship or life rewarding, and that it's not necessarily having multiple partners in your life that will bring you happiness, peace, or satisfaction. It's all about being honest and true to yourself first.

[LittleSara]

Mmmm. The problem with hoping things will get better is that they don't get better all by themselves.

good advice...

[beginninglove]

thanks, nycindie. (you are really good at this! i feel so grateful.) it's completely true, i do have a pattern of feeling this way in relationships. i end up feeling suffocated, compromised, trapped, and guilty. it is totally familiar. i have been looking at this and trying to just acknowledge my urge to leave and stay anyway. every single day. is knowing that this is a pattern a good enough reason to stay? or maybe my pattern of serial monogamy has not given me a chance to find out who i really am, learn how to know and assert m own boundaries, and choose relationships that are good and healthy for me, with people that also have good boundaries? i feel like i could make a great case for both staying and leaving, and i can't decide if the fact that i want to leave is evidence that I should or should not leave.

many of my fantasies around leaving have to do with having a period of time to be single (which i have never had since i started dating 20 years ago) and to be slutty without a primary commitment, all while practicing knowing and asserting my boundaries and improving my communication skills. i know its hard to plan these things in advance (who knows what the universe really has in store?) but is just wanting to be single enough to end a pretty good relationship? how does one know when something is "good enough" to try and keep working on versus when to stop dragging something out due to fear?

[Magdlyn]

Hi BL, I have been following your thread since you started it but feel interested in commenting now that you have revealed more about your ambivalence around commitment and NRE.

Maybe Alex has hit on something, mentioning the idea you are a sex/love/NRE addict. (BTW, my current gf once suggested I might have that issue, and I was hurt by it as well).

At first I was wondering if you were a young person, in your early or mid 20s, but now youve revealed youve been dating for 20 years and so I am guessing you must be in your late 30s.

So, you've had lots of partners and quite a bit of experience. It's great you and Alex have been in therapy for 4 years. What kind of insight has that given you around your issues with commitment in relationships? After all, being poly does not preclude commitment. In fact, it can mean committing fully to more than one person at a time.

However, if you feel like you need space for now, to be single and in more casual relationships (if any) for a while to get to know yourself better, there is nothing wrong with that! It seems healthy, in fact, and more fair to lovers who might be looking for the commitment you don't feel you can provide right now.

Lots of people spend their lives in serial monogamy, getting off on the NRE and bailing when that wears off, after a few months or 3 or so years. Someone new, bright and shiny comes along, and they just go, wow, that person is so much cooler than my current partner. Wham bam, breakup time.

These people miss out on established relationship intimacy (ERI), with all its attendant benefits. Long love can bring richness and joy to one's life that is deep and more ... interesting, than the flash and sparkle of a new love or infatuation. Kind of like the difference between a fire made out of dry kindling (big and blazing hot, but soon going out) as opposed to a fire made of large logs (with the depth of heat you can see in the heart of the fire, glowing white, blue and orange, with lots of texture and embers). You can really cook on a warm long lasting fire. A fire of kindling will just burn the surface of the food and leave it raw on the inside.

Me, I am loyal to a fault, maybe too loyal (Leo trait). I was with the same guy for 33 years, married to him for 30. We broke up about 10 years later than we should have. Once I was finally free, I did spend a year or 2 swept up in NRE with my gf and several other lovers, having lots of different experiences in intimacy and sex which I felt I needed after 30+ years with the same person. However, I didn't shy away from commitment. I like commitment. I like the security of knowing my partner really well and being known by her, our tastes in sex, kink, food, hobbies, the rhythm of our days matching, etc. I don't have another steady partner right now, but it is what I would like, instead of a stream of not quite right people.

So... yeah. Maybe you do need a period of being single for a while, working on the relationship you have with yourself, and not getting distracted from this introspection by the thrill of NRE. Eventually you will have more to offer a partner when you know yourself better!

[beginninglove]

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful words, Magdlyn. You have given me a lot to think about. I love you analogy of the slow burning fire, and I have certainly felt those benefits of LTRs in my varied experiences with partners (you are right about my age). Even with exes who turned into my closest friends. I also love the quote that you have as your signature, and I see that I feel controlled by Alex. I have played a huge role in this dynamic, no doubt, due to my own passivity and guilt. Certainly my fear is that I am making a mistake in ending a pretty darn good relationship, that somehow I should just keep plugging away at it until I find the ease and contentment I imagine I should be feeling. Through therapy we have come to understand this dance that we do, where I am the distancer and she is the persuer. She tries to grip me and I react by withdrawing. Seeing the dance has not necessarily made anything easier though. It helps to read your words, telling me that it is okay to just want to have time for myself, to get to know myself better and thus be a better partner in the future. It feels so selfish, and silly that I even somehow look to a stranger on a message board to give me permission to have and own my feelings. I have work to do on that front, no doubt.

[nycindie]

Maybe what you need is to state what you want , and find ways to create that. Even if it's just in exercises you give yourself, so that you feel empowered and not passive. Perhaps if you would take charge more, you won't feel like Alex is controlling, or that any relationship means you have to give up all control.

Ultimately, you do have a say in how you live your life, even if it seems like you're not in control. That's because, essentially, you're the one who's stepping back from making decisions, expressing yourself, etc.

Here's an exercise that I was taught and found to be an eye-opener:

For three days, every time you find yourself grumbling and complaining about something or someone, or blaming others for things you don't like in your life, whether out loud or in your head to yourself, add this to the end of your sentence: "and this is what I want." So, for example, next time you feel things are closing in around you, you find yourself thinking, "God, I never have any time to myself!" then say, "and this is what I want." Alex gets snippy with you and it's "That's a shitty thing for her to say... and this is what I want." Or "Wow, she can be such a bitch... and this is what I want." You have a moment where you feel like you're being a pushover, then it's "Oh, why do I have to be so wishy-washy and passive... and this is what I want." Standing on a long line at the grocery store becomes, "Ugh, this cashier is so slow, I hate this store... and this is what I want."
It may not always make sense. It's not about others not being responsible for their actions, but it is about how you construct your world-view and relate to others. Do that for three days and you might learn something really important about how you interact with the world and make choices for yourself.

[beginninglove]

Hmmm let's see...

I have felt anxiously ambivalent about my relationship with Alex for almost a year and this feeling is intensifying...and this is what I want.
I am terrified to leave her yet feel depressed and suffocated when I think about staying...and this is what I want.
I feel controlled by Alex when she does not grant my requests for freedom and independence...and this is what I want.
I have a lot of work to do in terms of knowing and accepting my feelings and communicating them to others in a direct yet compassionate way...and this is what I want.
I am completely distracted by all of this at work and feel relatively incapable of being productive right now...and this is what I want.

Interesting exercise. It definitely helps me tap into a sense that I DO have some agency in all of this, in terms of choosing to accept what is, or think about what my role is in changing it.

[nycindie]

Hmmm let's see...

I have felt anxiously ambivalent about my relationship with Alex for almost a year and this feeling is intensifying...and this is what I want. . . .

Interesting exercise. It definitely helps me tap into a sense that I DO have some agency in all of this, in terms of choosing to accept what is, or think about what my role is in changing it.

;) Well, it's more helpful if you just do it in the moment during the course of your day, rather than as a writing exercise which can get a little more intellectual. First, it helps one to identify all those times we complain in our head about stuff. Many people don't realize how often we grumble about things, and how addicted we are to just being miserable. So sometimes, even if one forgets to add that bit to the end of a sentence, just giving oneself the task of noticing how often in a day we complain about our lives is an eye-opener. And then adding that last part just makes us realize how much our happiness really is an inside job.

:)

[beginninglove]

Ah, okay, I think I get it. Thanks, I will keep trying it out.

And just as an aside, I have been scoping out this forum and found your blog and just really love your writing style and the way you think about things. Really happy to be here among people who think deeply about relationships and live adventurous and interesting lives. ;)

[redpepper]

I think I might do that exercise too. It could be useful. Thanks! :)

I can relate to how you are feeling. I have often felt suffocated in my relationships. I found myself wanting to leave and go it alone (similar story, 42 and never been single since I was 15), but then think of how I would feel at the end of the day when I have no one to "come home to." I realized that I need to work on being more independent, not being single (that was 4 years ago).

I understand if you think being single is better for you. It might very well be. I thought I would mention it though because you said she struggles when you express a desire to be more independent and wondered if you would stay if you had that independence.

PN has been incredible at providing me as much space as I need. He is amazing at being my "home." I am so grateful for that. Its completely clear to me now that I, like Mags, enjoy the commitment, but need the space. This is what I work on rather than working on ways to leave. Perhaps that is an option for you, or perhaps you really are done.

[nycindie]

Excellent point, RP! How easily one can forget that it's possible to still be independent AND in a committed relationship!

[beginninglove]

Its completely clear to me now that I, like Mags, enjoy the commitment, but need the space. This is what I work on rather than working on ways to leave. Perhaps that is an option for you, or perhaps you really are done.

I am really struggling with how to arrive at this level of clarity. I feel like I have been wrestling with ambivalence for so long. Its really getting exhausting for both me and Alex (and sometimes I imagine also for our friends who are supports for us). I love her and she loves me (probably to a fault), but I have not been able to get to the place where I have the independence and freedom I crave in the context of this relationship. I know that I play the biggest role in that. So how long is too long to keep trying? I feel like I have been slowly slipping into a depression over the past 8 or so months, and the NRE with Sam has been a nice boost to my mood but obviously does not solve the core issue. I don't even know that leaving Alex would solve the core issue either, but I do feel like something needs to radically shift or I'm going to disappear under the covers for an indefinite period of time (and not in the fun way).

Alex has been amazing in terms of expanding with me into our new agreements around non-monogamy. Part of me doesn't want to give up on that hard work and then have to re-create it with someone else down the line. But maybe I would be even better at it if I had time to explore who I am outside of the expectations of a primary commitment? She has drawn a hard line around "polyamory", saying that she is okay with me having a sexual relationship outside of our marriage but not an emotional one. I haven't even really tried to take that one on yet, because as I wrote earlier I already have feelings for Sam. And as I know from reading other people's stories, this is a common theme...people think they can agree to not have feelings, but sex often comes with feelings. It does for me, if I have sex with a person more than once or twice. I suppose this is another example of my passivity with Alex, in that although I have told her that I do have feelings for Sam, I still have agreed to keep that relationship primarily sexual even though I want more and so does Sam.

Which leads me to another thing I find myself struggling with: while I know (at least intellectually) that it is okay to want what I want, I have a hard time knowing when it is okay to ask for it and when it is just selfish and I need to just sit with the wanting. When I do ask for things that are hard for Alex to say yes to, initially she often has a strong reaction and then softens somewhat after we talk about it. But her intense reactions do dissuade me from asking for what I want, and I find myself questioning everything I feel, wondering if I am just an entitled brat and need to suck it up, or if my intuition and experiences are really leading me somewhere important and I need to listen to them. I have a hunch that one or both are true in different contexts, but I have a hard time making the distinction.

[AnnabelMore]

BL, I am hereby giving you permission to leave. You've tried hard and so has Alex, and you're both to be commended for that. Choosing, in the end, to leave doesn't invalidate or diminish the hard work or the love or the time spent together thus far. All of that is still real. But what I'm hearing, in very clear terms now that you've had time to go over it more then once, is that you're ready to go. I actually mistyped that as ready to "grow" and I probably needn't have corrected myself.

You know what you want and you know what you need to do to get it. You want freedom and space and to be solo while exploring new loves. That is ok. You've held yourself back while you've ben slipping into depression because of your love for Alex, because leaving didn't seem fair, because you knew it would be hard, and because you didn't know if you had the right.

It *will* be hard but it will get easier with time. She'll be ok and you will be ok and you'll know that you finally chose to do the hard thing rather than second-guess yourself and swallow yourself back indefinitely. I'm telling you now, you have the right and it is ok. You can leave any time you want. You are free.

[nycindie]

I feel like I have been slowly slipping into a depression over the past 8 or so months, and the NRE with Sam has been a nice boost to my mood but obviously does not solve the core issue. I don't even know that leaving Alex would solve the core issue either, but I do feel like something needs to radically shift or I'm going to disappear under the covers for an indefinite period of time (and not in the fun way).

. . . I suppose this is another example of my passivity with Alex, in that although I have told her that I do have feelings for Sam, I still have agreed to keep that relationship primarily sexual even though I want more and so does Sam.

Well, it could very well be that your relationship with Alex is done and it's time to get out, but I wonder if you are wanting us to tell you what you already know. ;)

Now, let's say you do break up. Sam has expressed having feelings for you and you have feelings for her. What will prevent you from being passive with Sam, and following the same trajectory with her that you did with Alex and other relationships in the past? I think your work will be to watch for that feeling of being confined, controlled, suffocated, and to be aware of thoughts and associations that bring it up (these patterns usually come from childhood - by the time we're about 7 or 8 years old, we've already put together our strategies for going out into the world and that stays with us in our subconscious. So the trick is to bring it to consciousness and become aware of those patterns so that instead of falling into them by default, we can make a choice!). I would also look at opportunities to be assertive and come out and say what you need, as much as you can. Sure, you won't always get what you want, but why should the word "no" keep you from asking again?

Here is a great video of a young girl speaking at a Ted conference on how she doesn't let the word "no" stop her when she wants something. She's all of 16 years old in this video: Fiona Lowenstein at TEDxYouth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQXbFFmdRgI)

Is Sam poly (sorry, I don't recall) or do you think she wants a heavy-duty committed monogamous thing with you?

If you do move on from your relationship with Alex, I think it would behoove you to be independent and not live with anybody for a while (not any lovers, at least), and date around. Take any new relationships slo-o-o-owly so you don't allow yourself to get caught up in old patterns of being. And listen to your intuition, take chances in expressing yourself.

[redpepper]

You know what, I disagree with leaving. She is trying but also has her own pace to consider. There is nothing wrong with that. Putting her foot down might give her some comfort for a bit and that is okay as long as she knows that it has to move forward eventually. That you are not done with the boundary jiust becasue she has decidsed that its done.

I think you need to stop feeling like you are asking to much and stand up for what you need in this relationship with Sam and for your life then go do it with as much respect to her as you can . I also think that she would do well to read this thread and see that people think you should leave. Sometimes that can be a great motivater. Radical honesty; what do you have to loose that you aren't already considering ending anyway. You never know, it might just be the jolt you need to get going on what works better for you and for her. After all, she might do better or decide that working on this just isn't going to work for her.

[beginninglove]

wow, there is so much to think about here. i really love getting all this direct feedback so i will say it again: thank you so much.

something about annabelmore giving me permission to leave did strike a chord with me. i have read that post over and over again. i have been heavy with guilt over not feeling like it was fair or like i had the right to leave. it certainly is not the easy or convenient thing to do for anyone. but i have been trying really hard to make this work and i just end up feeling more and more guilty and bad about myself and Alex just feels more and more insecure and desperate. this morning she said to me "all i do is give, give, give and all you do is take, take, take". i know she said that out of feeling hurt but it exemplifies for me why i need to leave, at least for while. she can't see how i'm trying, and she's giving more than she truly feels comfortable with. she feels like a chump and i feel like a jerk. i can't be what she needs me to be right now and vice versa.

we have agreed to a trial separation. we are still negotiating what that will look like but at the very least it means me moving out for awhile and having my freedom. i feel like i need to start at ground zero and really explore what my needs and boundaries are and how to communicate those along the lines of what nycindie said...i need to look for opportunities to be assertive, with Sam and with others that I (casually!) date, so that i can truly learn how to preserve my sense of myself in the context of a relationship without feeling smothered or controlled. that is my work to do. i have thought about taking the rest of this year as a trial separation from Alex, and if we are still in the same place, and i'm still wanting to leave, i will sign a year lease on my own place for next year and commit to a FULL year of being single, living alone, and doing the work on myself that i need to do. i have some amazing opportunities to do some deep spiritual work next year that are presenting themselves right now, and i think being single and just dating will really support me going as deep as i can into that work.

as far as Sam goes, she is new to poly but is seeing other people right now also, which is perfect. she has told me she is falling in love with me but i think that is okay as long as we are both on the same page about what that means and how far this will go. i agree that i will need to stay vigilant about not falling into the same pattern of being passive and then sliding into something i don't want and feeling trapped by it. i want to learn how to love and be loved freely and generously, without the need to possess or control, without the need to build up a lot of expectations, allowing each relationship to find its own natural levels while I give myself the gift of truly finding my own way, learning to be with my own heart and being able to share it with others in a truly authentic way.

[LittleSara]

excellent point, rp! How easily one can forget that it's possible to still be independent and in a committed relationship!

amen! :)

[beginninglove]

just for the record, i DO know it is possible to be independent and in a committed relationship, i just don't know that it is possible for me right now (given my current issues and work to do) to be in a relationship with Alex (given our history and dynamic) and get both my need for independence and her need for safety met. i do aspire to have that in my relationships someday though.

[redpepper]

Good luck, at least you will know next time what kind of person you are willing to put work into with. This kind of mono person doesn't seem to work for you. It sounds like she would be better off with a mono man and you with someone who is poly.

[beginninglove]

i think you are right, rp. just for the record, sam, alex, and i are all queer females ;)

[AnnabelMore]

Best of luck. :) You're going to be just fine.

[redpepper]

just for the record, sam, alex, and i are all queer females ;)ah, sorry for the assumption. :)

[beginninglove]

Hey all, just wanted to give an update in case anyone is curious. I attempted to break up with Alex last Tuesday, and we agreed on a trial separation. However, over the past week as we have been trying to figure out what that would look like and what we would be trying to accomplish, we have decided to keep trying to work things out. I have realized that it is true that there are some issues that I need to work on in myself - old issues around trust and shame especially - but that having a supportive partner that also pushes my buttons may help me more in that work than trying to do it on my own. Not to say that she and I will be able to stick it out indefinitely...who knows? But for now that is what is happening.

We built a fire one night and I sat gazing at the logs, thinking about Magdlyn's analogy of the long-burning, deeply hot glowing log and the quick burn fire made of kindling. I was thinking about how sad it would be if there were only one kind of fire. Each type has it own beauty and interesting qualities. The fire made of kindling is easy to know because it is so easy to start, but the deeply glowing log takes patience to get to, and often some tending as well.

An update on Sam also: we have been having playdates about once a week. Last week she visited a cross-country lover for about a week, and I wondered how it would be when she got back. The other person she was seeing ended up breaking up with her primary partner and now has much more time and freedom to be with Sam, and it sounds like she may even want a primary (possibly even mono) relationship with Sam. Sam and I had a fantastic heart-to-heart about this and she told me she was not interested in giving up what she and I have, and I was very relieved to hear that! It even sounded like perhaps having her other lover break up with her primary is taking somewhat of a toll on her and Sam's connection due to a different kind of dynamic and perhaps even added pressure.

This got me thinking about how interesting it is that it seems like poly relationships seek and often find a balance for awhile, and then changes in the structure of any one relationship has ripple effects in the other relationships. Of course, everything is impermanent and ever-changing, but it is interesting to see how things change, then balance is sought, sometimes obtained for awhile, and then something changes and shifts everything again.

[nycindie]

... we have decided to keep trying to work things out. I have realized that it is true that there are some issues that I need to work on in myself ...

And aren't there issues she needs to work on?

I'm happy that you've reached a place in which you are comfortable, but please be careful not to step into the role of "the fucked-up one with issues" in this relationship. Your needs, fears, insecurities, inhibitions, etc., are your own to work on, but don't look at Alex like the "together" one who is so supportive and has to wait for you to get your shit in order.

I do recall that she is prone to making passive-aggressive comments about what you want, which you internalize, thereby leaving you to feel shitty, and like you were a bad person for wanting your relationship with Sam. If I were you, I'd make it clear that you are not the only one who needs to do some work here. I'd ask Alex that she take a look at her role in the discomfort you've felt, and how hurtful that kind of judgment and anger can be, even if the remarks are made with a smile or disguised as poking fun. If she doesn't get a handle on her tendency to make little jabs at you (probably out of defensiveness), it will undermine your attempts at striving for self-awareness and balance.

You've acknowledged that you need to work on your communications skills, but you BOTH need to! You would do well to work toward developing enough trust to be able to express the hidden or most painful feelings you have. Are you going to try therapy or a counselor? If so, I think it would behoove you to go together, and for you to really speak up and not swallow it when she dishes nastiness out to you (I'm not saying she isn't also wonderful and loving and supportive and kind, but everyone has issues).

[beginninglove]

you are totally right. i do have the tendency to feel like the "fucked up one", especially since i'm the one with the chaotic childhood, lack of models for successful relationships, etc and the one asking for change in our relationship. i also feel like i have been portrayed as the "difficult one" because of the changes i have asked for in the structure of our relationship (from mono to poly), and because she likes to tell me how our friends tell her they would never put up with it. so its easy for her to seem like the hero in this situation for even staying with me through this. thus, she feels very justified in making comments that put her in a martyr role, and me in a selfish one. because of this, i have also held off on talking too much about my feelings for sam because she has been really insistent that our relationship is "non-monogamous" as opposed to "polyamorous", meaning outside sex is okay, but love is not. i realize this is unrealistic in terms of my ongoing realtionship with sam, as i already have feelings for her even though i realize it is NRE and i feel like i have really gotten a handle on it as of late. is it wrong for me to not talk to alex about my feelings for sam? i am hoping that alex will come around on this issue with time, but i wonder if this type of withholding is really damaging?

[AnnabelMore]

Sooo... in what way is someone who cuts you down, portrays you as the bad guy, and won't allow space for you to express your authentic feelings a "supportive partner"?

[AnnabelMore]

Also, I feel I have to point this out -- you're deceiving her about the nature of your relationship by allowing her to believe you're emotionally monogamous when you're not, whether or not you've told Sam how you feel. Generally, basing a relationship on a lie for the sake of one partner's comfort doesn't resolve itself well. :(

[beginninglove]

thanks for asking the hard questions, annabel. you're right in that alex does mkae passive aggressive remarks and seems to get some kind of solace from hearing from her friends that she's a rock star for hanging in there through this. she also has been working hard and at a faster pace than i think she prefers, in order for us to be able to open up our relationship this way. so i do give her props for that. she also has been supportive of my work on myself and has tried to be patient with me as i figure out what that looks like. i don't know that we will be able to stick through it as i grow and change as a result of this work i need to do. alex is pretty insecure and easily threatened. she may decide that this is all too much.

i was thinking the other day about how love is not a commodity, it is something to be freely given and received and we all could benefit from learning to revel in it when it arises in our life. i suppose if we were all enlightened beings, we would all feel such a deep love for each other all the time, even strangers. but romantic love often triggers the need to control and possess, and i would like to learn how to transform that in myself. i have started to feel what transforming that feels like, as i feel i have already been doing that with sam.

i do need to talk to alex about my feelings for sam. i feel somewhat at a loss of what words to use (i hate the whole "i love her but i am not 'in love' with her" distinction, what does that really mean??) and i fear triggering alex when really i am happy with what i have with sam right now and at the moment i don't feel like i am pining for more. sometimes i do wish i had more freedom in how often and in what context i get to see her.

on a side note, i have been approached by some friends of ours who are a couple who want me to hook up with them. i definitely am attracted to both of them and really want to do this, but am also wary of throwing something else into the mix right now. i'm thinking i should probably hold off on this for a bit, but i'm wondering how to handle approaching alex about this eventually. i wonder if she will also feel frustrated that here is yet another thing to deal with on top of the sam situation. she has already expressed feelings of jealousy around my connection with one of the members of the couple, and i wonder if she will feel left out somehow by not being invited in on the action. i'm not sure she would be up for it even if she was, but i wonder if other folks have run into this situation? does this just sound like a horrible idea?

[nycindie]

To tell you the truth, you sounded more confident about breaking up with her and moving on. Now that you've back-tracked, you are all over the place and second-guessing yourself again. I'm not suggesting anything, but what does that tell you?

[beginninglove]

hmm, that is some super interesting feedback. i definitely have noticed that my body was more energized when i was convinced i would break up with her, and now i feel more anxious/tired. but i have been attributing it to just the hard work that comes with long-term relationships, thinking that we/i will come out on the other side of this eventually.

here's the other wrench in my confidence as of late: in the past month, both my mother and sister have been diagnosed with breast cancer. i went for a mammogram to get myself checked out, and as a result of microcalcifications they found they are asking me to come back for a biopsy. i am not terrified and i know i will be okay no matter what, but it has brought home how nice it is to have someone who i know cares, knows my family and cares about them too, and who i know will support me through whatever i end up needing to go through. that's not to say i don't have other people in my life who will support me, because i do. it just has given me another perspective to think about. i don't want to stay with alex out of fear of being alone, but how does one weigh the pros and cons without thinking about these things?

[beginninglove]

So sam just cancelled a playdate with me for the first time ever. Her long distance lover is coming into town spontaneously and sam feels like it would be disrespectful to keep her date with me since this woman is coming from so far away. I feel a little disappointed that she would cancel our date rather than tell the other person that she had a standing date and she should consider that when making her travel arrangements, but sam didn't choose that route and that's okay. It does hurt a little but it's the kind of hurt that makes me feel stronger somehow. Like hey, yes I can acknowledge that it hurts and I can roll with it too. I know I can't give sam my full attention while I'm still with alex, and even if alex and I break up I know that I would still need my space where sam is concerned. Sam wants more time and attention than I can give her and I get that. Still, my heart hurts. I notice that my impulse is to withdraw, end things with sam before she ends them with me, but i'm just trying to notice those feelings and not do anything reactive.

[MeeraReed]

I just read through this whole post, Beginninglove, and I have one question for you:

If Alex broke up with you, would you be relieved?

If the answer is yes, you have to break up with her.

I hate to bring negative or harsh advice to the table when you are going through so much, but my reaction from your very first post in this thread was that the problem here is your relationship with Alex.

Not because Alex is controlling, but because you describe Sam as "super-hot and amazing and the sex with her is fantastic." And you don't say anything like that about Alex. Actually, you don't really describe any reasons why you like or love Alex, other than the familiarity and security of being with someone for 5 years.

Doesn't Alex deserve someone who think's SHE'S super-hot and amazing and great in bed?

I know you said you and Alex just aren't sexually compatible. I have heard of couples who have a healthy, primary relationship with each other despite not being totally sexually compatible, but that only works when both partners date other people and/or feel that sex is not all that important to themselves or their emotional bond.

Poly/mono relationships seem to work best when the poly one feels that her mono partner is just as awesome and wonderful and energizing as her other loves. In short, when she is still truly in love with her mono partner.

(Actually, that has to be true regardless of the mono/poly dynamic.)

It also sounds like Alex simply isn't comfortable with having a partner who is poly and/or dates other people. She's definitely tried to accept it, but she clearly resents you for it.

Hence, her comment accusing you of being a sex addict. (Your response, by the way, should have been to talk to Alex about how, in fact, you have started having real feelings for Sam, and that's why you want to see her so much. Not that I blame you at all for being unable to be honest about that. Alex sounds like a really difficult person to communicate with. I don't like, for example, how she uses her mono friends to get unhelpful advice which she then throws in your face).

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say here is what a few others have said: when you were planning to leave Alex and wanted to enjoy being single, you sounded happy and energized, and that sounded like the right decision to me.

I confess I was disappointed to hear that you are trying to work things out with Alex--simply because it sounds like things can't be worked out. It sounds like you two are just unsuited to each other, and that you would both be happier with other people eventually.

But first, you're going to have to be willing to hurt both Alex and yourself by doing the hard thing and breaking up.

I'm really sorry. Especially with the breast cancer issue--I'm so terribly sorry.

I'm not sure you should stay with someone out of fear, though. And even without Alex, you will not be alone in whatever you have to go through--you will be able to find people who will support you, whether friends or lovers or family. (Regardless of what happens with Sam--I don't think the important issue here is Sam at all).

You sound like an amazing person, and I wish you the best. But I don't think you will ever get to be yourself if you stay with Alex. And I don't think Alex would ultimately be happy either.

Don't let guilt keep you from doing what feels right to you. You deserve to be able to do what makes you happy without begging for permission to do it. (And Alex deserves someone who doesn't constantly beg her for permission to see other people when that's clearly not what she wants).

Again, I'm so sorry. I've been through something similar. I lost my best friend and all our mutual friends, and I have to live with the knowledge that they all think I'm not that great a person because I'm just not monogamous--but in the end, I get to stay myself.

[redpepper]

I notice that my impulse is to withdraw, end things with sam before she ends them with me, but i'm just trying to notice those feelings and not do anything reactive.Good idea. I do this too where Leo is concerned. I read all kinds of things into it when really I am just being selfish and demanding and should be more giving... find compersion. When I do that I find that he is far more receptive and willing to meet me half way in negotiating a new time, location or whatever. When I get whiny and selfish because I am not getting my way and things aren't going as they normally would he is less likely to figure out a way to see me another time or share his feelings with me. I get the opposite; emotional shut down, resentment, he doesn't talk to me and doesn't make an effort to see me at all. I in return resent him, feel more neglected, and we end up fighting when really we both want to see each other, just something came up for him to change the time. I have had quite a bit of experience with this now and in practising to just shut my mouth give him a smile and tell him to have a good time and good luck (its usually about his business or family that he cancels) he comes to me with a different date and a note to say he misses me and is disappointed to have not seen me.

[beginninglove]

But first, you're going to have to be willing to hurt both Alex and yourself by doing the hard thing and breaking up.



Thanks MeeraReed, I have been sitting with your post all weekend and somewhere deep down I know you are right. I have felt distracted, unable to concentrate at work, depressed, irritable. Alex has attributed this to all the other stressful things going on in my life, and I haven't had the heart or the courage to tell her the truth - that I think I'm just done with this relationship and I have been really struggling to find the courage to just end it. I keep trying to talk myself into working harder, trying harder, disciplining myself into staying, telling myself no one said it would be easy. I feel terrible that the holidays are creeping up on us and I feel like its either right now or after the holidays are over. I keep getting hung up on logistics. What about the house we just bought? How we will afford to separate out our finances? Thank goodness we don't have kids involved, I can't imagine how hard that must be for people who have to go through that. I don't know what it will take for me to be able to reach down deep and just do it. I do love her and I hate to see her hurting. But I am not in love with her and you are right, she deserves to be happy with someone who can give her what she needs.

[beginninglove]

I read all kinds of things into it when really I am just being selfish and demanding and should be more giving... find compersion. When I do that I find that he is far more receptive and willing to meet me half way in negotiating a new time, location or whatever.... I have had quite a bit of experience with this now and in practising to just shut my mouth give him a smile and tell him to have a good time and good luck (its usually about his business or family that he cancels) he comes to me with a different date and a note to say he misses me and is disappointed to have not seen me.

I did a pretty good job with this last week if I do say so myself. I probably did give away a little bit too much of my disappointment, and even made reference to the fact that my intuition was telling me things were going to be changing fast (which it is!) and actually even though I'm a little sad, I'm truly okay with it too. I never doubted that Sam really wanted a full-time girlfriend, something that I certainly couldn't be to her anytime soon, maybe never. I told her that I really care about her and want her to be happy, and that I wouldn't be authentic if I didn't also acknowledge that the idea of us not being able to see each other anymore seemed to be on the table as a prospect and that thought made my heart hurt.

[beginninglove]

maybe i should have seen this coming, but i am seriously feeling like i am having some kind of meltdown. to update this thread, i am still with alex, trying to work out what non-monogamy/polyamory means to me/us and she is struggling with some intense jealousy and feelings of inadequacy. i am trying hard to be patient but at the same time be honest about what is going on with me.

this morning i told her that an acquaintance asked me to go on a date with her, and that i want to go. this caused a total breakdown, alex started yelling at me in the car and said over and over again that she can't handle anything more right now, so i'm stuck between telling her the truth about things that are happening for me and facing her rage and intense grief. i am practicing being honest about everything (this has been hard for me in the past) and she says she wants that honesty, but me bringing up something that feels fairly innocuous to me creates this huge reaction in her.

i have also been honest with her about my attraction to this couple that i am friends with, although nothing has happened physically with them and alex has, for at least the time being, asked me not to hang out with both of them. i can hang out with one member of the couple but not the other. and nothing physical is allowed.

alex has reached an okay point with me seeing sam (only sexually, no "dates"). things with sam are changing and slowing down, as she navigates her way into a primary partnership that will probably mean her moving cross-country soon.

am i being selfish? or dense? am i asking too much of alex? part of me is thinking i need to just slow down and go at her pace, but is it dishonest of me not to acknowledge my attractions and what i truly want? i have tried to be patient, and i don't know if she is ever truly going to be okay with this. i also don't know why it is so hard for me to leave, but i keep holding onto the hope that she can meet me where i am at but this level of intensity of crying and processing is wearing me down. i couldn't go to work today because i was so upset and unable to function.

is this normal? i know that shifting from a mono relationship to a poly relationship is really hard to do, but i just don't know that i can continue to operate at this level. i just want to crawl into a hole.

[AnnabelMore]

I once stayed way too long in a relationship I should have left and it really messed me up (more on that here, if you want the gory details: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=113395&postcount=292). I don't think your situation is anywhere near that bad. I hope it never *could* be. But I felt echoes of the things that were wrong in that relationship in what you were writing, and that was what prompted me to write that "permission to leave" post, which came straight from my heart. I wrote what I would have written to my past self if I thought I might figure out how to listen.

I'm not going to tell you to leave, because only you will know when and if you can and must. Maybe your situation actually is totally different than mine was and you guys can work through this and be fine. Just please, be careful, and don't lose yourself, don't stop listening to yourself. Even if you find yourself again, like I did, you may not be ok for a while. Two people who love each other very much and who work great together can still ruin each other's lives if things are just wrong and there's no way to make them be right for both people.

My story has a funny twist at the end, because after an interval of more than four years, I agreed to re-try the relationship and it's actually going pretty damn well. There are bumps, but nothing like the deep dysfunction we'd fallen into. So, that's another way to look at -- leaving now may mean you never get to be with this person again... or it might not. Life is funny.

[Storm]

Hi beginninglove, so sorry to hear all your heartache at the moment. My take on Alex is that there is no way she is ever going to accept your poly nature. Not unless she can control every last aspect of it. Would she change in the future? Maybe... but I think some people that are mono cannot accept being with someone who is poly and wants to explore being poly.

My partner and I have only just began to explore our poly natures so I can't offer a great deal of personal experience advice type help unfortunately.

Do you still love Alex? I think I read before that you felt that you aren't in love with her anymore... so why stay? I was in a mono relationship previous to my current that became very toxic and unhealthy. I stayed because I felt obligated to. I was afraid if I left she would hurt herself. Fear kept me in that relationship for years longer than I should have stayed. How would you feel if Alex left? Relieved?

Are you staying because you hope Alex will eventually break up with you and then you won't feel as much guilt over it if she leaves you instead? Or maybe you think it will be easier for her to leave you?

Where do you want to be a few months from now? Do you still want to be with Alex? If so, why? Is it love or something else?

In the end the choice is of course yours. Don't do anything because of what you're told here or anywhere else. Do what you know in your heart is best for you and it will be a decision that while maybe initially hard, will be the one you find the easiest to live with down the road.

[BrigidsDaughter]

I would not accept a partner telling me that they want me to avoid my friends because I'm attracted to them. That would be a deal breaker for me.

[nycindie]

i just want to crawl into a hole.

Hon, I think you and Alex are way past done.

[beginninglove]

I felt echoes of the things that were wrong in that relationship in what you were writing, and that was what prompted me to write that "permission to leave" post, which came straight from my heart. I wrote what I would have written to my past self if I thought I might figure out how to listen.


I went and read your story, and I feel like I could have written those words myself. The part about trying unsuccessfully to leave over and over again, not writing in my personal journal because I am so sick of myself... I try not to talk to friends about it anymore because I am tired of hearing myself, and I imagine they are completely exasperated at this point. Mutual friends of ours distancing themselves from us... all of it. The love that is still there, the comfort. We have a cozy home we have created together, a dog we adore, our rituals. I am so sad to leave, and yet I do not know how I can bear to stay. I am trying so hard to let go of shame, guilt, thoughts that I am being selfish.

I told her yesterday in couples therapy that I am done. She protested all night last night, telling me that she realizes now that she has to let go and trust me. But then when I tell her I am done asking (begging) for permission to do what I want to do when I know she does not want me doing them, she goes into negotiation mode: "well, that depends on what it is, we can talk about what that would look like". no, i want my freedom. i am really done. and i am so, so sad about it. i don't know how to stick to this or make this happen, and it feels like the worst possible timing in the world.

anything anyone can say to help me stick this out is so appreciated.

[beginninglove]

Are you staying because you hope Alex will eventually break up with you and then you won't feel as much guilt over it if she leaves you instead? Or maybe you think it will be easier for her to leave you?

Where do you want to be a few months from now? Do you still want to be with Alex? If so, why? Is it love or something else?

Even though I would be relieved if Alex left me, deep down I know that will never happen. I'd really have to do something terrible to make that happen, and I'm not willing to hurt her and my integrity that way. I know I have to do the right and strong thing, even if it is much, much harder for me.

Your question about what I want a few months from now is telling, I can only picture myself single and free.

As I contemplate my decision, I notice fears about getting older coming up for me. Thoughts like "this is not very adult-like of me" or " I should really be settled down by now". I'm 37, and I guess this is normal but I wonder if others have thoughts about this?

[beginninglove]

Hon, I think you and Alex are way past done.

This is actually REALLY helpful to hear when I'm doubting my own intuition about this so deeply.

[AnnabelMore]

Step one -- move out. Everything will get a million times easier when you're physically removed from the situation.

In my case, I found an acquaintance who had a spare room she was willing to rent very cheaply and talked to her about my situation. The very cheaply part was crucial because in the end I left quite suddenly and I wanted to commit to paying rent at my old place for at least two months so that my ex would have time to either line up a roommate or move out himself. I could also have moved back in with my parents, but I was relieved to find an alternative to that. Three months later, I ended up reconnecting with some friends from college and moving in with them, and we still live together to this day.

It seemed like this immense logistical challenge to leave, but once I set my mind to it it wasn't complicated at all, it was the emotional challenge that was the real stumbling block. I had just been billing it to myself as a logistics problem so that there was one more thing holding me in place.

[nycindie]

... i am seriously feeling like i am having some kind of meltdown. ... alex started yelling at me in the car and said over and over again that she can't handle anything more right now, so i'm stuck between telling her the truth about things that are happening for me and facing her rage and intense grief. i am practicing being honest about everything (this has been hard for me in the past) and she says she wants that honesty, but me bringing up something that feels fairly innocuous to me creates this huge reaction in her.

... i keep holding onto the hope that she can meet me where i am at but this level of intensity of crying and processing is wearing me down. i couldn't go to work today because i was so upset and unable to function.
I am so sad to leave, and yet I do not know how I can bear to stay. I am trying so hard to let go of shame, guilt, thoughts that I am being selfish.

... no, i want my freedom. i am really done. and i am so, so sad about it. i don't know how to stick to this or make this happen, and it feels like the worst possible timing in the world.
Even though I would be relieved if Alex left me, deep down I know that will never happen. ... what I want a few months from now is telling, I can only picture myself single and free.

As I contemplate my decision, I notice fears about getting older coming up for me. Thoughts like "this is not very adult-like of me" or " I should really be settled down by now". I'm 37 ...
... I'm doubting my own intuition about this so deeply.
Okay, breathe. You have been trying so hard not to hurt or anger Alex while being true to yourself, yet the stress of trying to protect her has worn you down. Realize that you have no control over how anyone else feels or reacts to anything. Your responsibility is to take care of yourself, and whatever Alex will feel about it is not your fault. You can't protect her from her own emotions and how she chooses to respond to life.

It seems Alex has a pattern of setting you up as the scapegoat for her tumultuous emotions. She gets uncomfortable and blames you, gets angry, blames you, feels hurt, blames you. She has attempted to control your actions by playing the victim. And you come away feeling like the fucked-up one, selfish, mean, and like you owe her something for what you allegedly put her through. That is bullshit. She is co-dependent and manipulates you through patterns of control: playing the self-sacrificing martyr who is always hurt by your needs and desires, manipulating you with her rage, convincing you of what you "should" think and feel, refusing to cooperate, compromise, or negotiate on anything but making it look like she's giving you something. You've twisted yourself into a pretzel trying to please her, and she's manipulated you into staying in a situation where she can have the upper hand. If your fights are so exhausting that you have to stay home from work, it is time to move on.

Of course it's hard to leave; of course, it's painful. Don't worry about starting over at 37. That's young. I'm starting over at 51. Life doesn't have to be so full of all this drama, but it will take some bravery on your part and a realization that Alex alone is responsible for Alex, no matter how much love you still have for her. You need to get out to save your life. At least, that's what it looks like from here.

[MeeraReed]

I agree that you should start by moving out. Everything else will get easier once you have taken that step.

I'm sorry that you have to leave Alex. And I'm sorry about the dog you share. I can see how sad that must be for you.

But the things you like about your life with Alex--the dog, the little house, the daily routines--these are roommate/sister things, not lover things.

Would it help if you told Alex that no matter how hard you try, you could never make her happy without giving up the things you need to be happy yourself? Tell her you love her, you love your life together and all the time you've spent together, and that leaving is the hardest thing you've ever had to do, but that you must do it.

Don't tell her that she'll be happier without you (because she will be eventually but not right away) and don't tell her that she deserves someone "better" than you (because there's nothing wrong or damaged about you, but she does deserve someone who can be monogamous with her).

If it helps, I totally understand what you mean about feeling like you're selfish and wrong. But you need to stop listening to those voices and listen to your deeper instincts.

I've spent most of my life feeling guilty for wanting what I want. Often it wasn't even that anyone else was making me feel guilty, it was just that I felt it was wrong or selfish to want to be free to explore sex and dating.

We have this idea that "healthy" people are supposed to want to be in monogamous relationships. But sometimes the healthiest thing you can do is leave one.

Please focus on the future, a few months from now, when you are in your own apartment and the worst of this is over. Take steps to achieve that future.

Bad times are something to pass through and emerge from.

Also--I hate to bring this up, but how are you doing with the breast cancer situation you mentioned earlier?

If you lose perspective on everything else, people here are thinking of you and supporting you.

[MeeraReed]

Just checking in with you, BL...how are you doing?

[beginninglove]

hi all. thanks MeeraReed for checking in with me. its been a crazy hectic month of travel, holidays, family time, house renovation, etc etc including some upheaval in my love life but not the anticipated scenario yet. i'm still living at home, with alex. we decided to stick it out through the holidays at least before possibly separating, mainly because we had all this travel and family time planned. ulitmately i'm glad that we did all that together, given the heavy stuff (i.e. multiple cancer diagnoses) happening in my family right now. the holidays were good between us because we didn't have to deal with anything related to the poly stuff. we were just being family, playing house, doing holiday things. it was kind of like being monogamous again and i could see alex thriving in it. she was reveling in it, loving it. she loves the downtime, the staying in together and enjoying our house. i love it too, but also feel suffocated and trapped after awhile.

as i wrote earlier, an acquaintance asked me to go to the ballet with her and alex agreed to let me go after a big ugly initial reaction. this acquaintance (i'll call her K) and I have seen each other a couple more times since then. i like her, and its pretty much back to the same thing with alex. big reactions, big emotions, lots of blaming me and me wondering if maybe i deserve it and maybe i am asking too much. i did break an agreement - i didn't shower after a date with K - and alex exploded, saying this should be a doable request and she felt disrespected. i apologized and agreed that it should be a doable request, i honestly forgot and it takes a long time for me to get home from K's house so a tthe endof the date i ended up running out the door to make a late train. but ultimately i felt like alex was lecturing and scolding me, and i got defensive and shut down. how can i hold myself accountable, and allow alex to hold me accountable, for breaking agreements without it disintegrating into her blaming me for feeling hurt and me feeling selfish and bad?

i was feeling optimistic for a minute about the potential for alex and i to get through this, and i wonder if its wrong for me to get too hopeful and get her hopes up as well. today we are going to therapy and i wonder if its a good idea to talk about a trial separation again. i worry that this ambivalence gets tiring for people to listen to (even you all!) so i find myself feeling bad for that as well. i just keep wanting to make it work, and i also keep being faced with this evidence that it just might not, no matter how hard we try.

[nycindie]

I am glad your holidays were pleasant. Happy New Year!
today we are going to therapy and i wonder if its a good idea to talk about a trial separation again. i worry that this ambivalence gets tiring for people to listen to (even you all!) so i find myself feeling bad for that as well.
Perhaps the thing to talk about in therapy is Alex's explosive temper. It sounds like she is still prone to such outbursts, which is not a mature, rational way to handle difficult feelings, and I hate to say it still does seem like codependency is still going full throttle here. Getting yelled at and scolded by her and then you shutting down - I picture an abused dog cowering as its owner strikes it.

It is disheartening to see that you still keep thinking it is you and your issues that are the only problems to be addressed. I hope you don't mind, but I am going to quote something I wrote earlier in this thread, just to remind you:It seems Alex has a pattern of setting you up as the scapegoat for her tumultuous emotions. She gets uncomfortable and blames you, gets angry, blames you, feels hurt, blames you. She has attempted to control your actions by playing the victim. And you come away feeling like the fucked-up one, selfish, mean, and like you owe her something for what you allegedly put her through. That is bullshit. She is co-dependent and manipulates you through patterns of control: playing the self-sacrificing martyr who is always hurt by your needs and desires, manipulating you with her rage, convincing you of what you "should" think and feel, refusing to cooperate, compromise, or negotiate on anything but making it look like she's giving you something. You've twisted yourself into a pretzel trying to please her, and she's manipulated you into staying in a situation where she can have the upper hand. If your fights are so exhausting that you have to stay home from work, it is time to move on.

[beginninglove]

thanks nycindie. that exact paragraph you quoted is something i have re-read again and again because it is right on. i know that co-dependency is something that is talked about a lot in popular psychology, but i'm not sure i'm clear on what the working definition is. how do you define it?

[nycindie]

Here are some good places to start reading about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency

Overcoming Codependency by Rama Rao, MD (http://sciencedaily.healthology.com/mental-health/article1095.htm)

Codependent No More by Melody Beattie (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/720298.Codependent_No_More)

[NovemberRain]

hiya,

I knew if I kept reading long enough, I'd find my story. :) Okay, it's not exactly my story.

I just want to express my really deep gratitude for this thread. It's helped me SO much. And particularly tonight, I've been feeling extra crazy for the last few days.

BL, I'm pretty much the acknowledged fucked-up one, in my head and in theirs. I've been wanting to leave forever, and have been finding ever more creative ways to not leave.

Bless you all. Thank you all.
<3

[beginninglove]

NovemberRain, I'm so glad to hear that this thread had been helpful to you. Its hard to feel like the fucked up one and feel like you don't have anywhere to get a reality check. Even though I am still in the midst of my crazy situation in so many ways, the advice I have gotten here so far has really helped me put my situation into perspective in a major way. And I don't feel so fucked up anymore. If you would like to share more about your particular situation, I'd be really interested in hearing about it.

My latest update is that my new situation with K is going great (i.e. the NRE is fabulously intoxicating!). And Alex has calmed down enough that we revisited our inital agreements that we had developed during the Sam situation and she was able to loosen up on a lot of restrictions that had been hard for me to adhere to. Agreements like: no exchanging of gifts, limitations on the amount of contact/talking outside of arranging playdates, no "dating" - meaning no going out to dinner or doing things that constitute "courtship, like flowers - no sleepovers. All these things have been renegotiated and I feel like I have a new lease on life with some newfound freedom. In some ways Alex and I may still be playing into a co-dependent dynamic, since I have wanted these things for awhile and still want looseness on other things, and there are still her angry outbursts to contend with, but I'm also trying to figure out how to balance the idea of going at the pace of the one who is struggling most, acknowledging the work that she is doing, and also giving voice to my own needs.

[NovemberRain]

:)

I have a thread in the 'Life Stories' section that tells my stuff.
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19699
My Radical Journey into Self Love

I have been feeling so crazy the last few days! My current bf stopped talking to me! I was pissed because we had said we'd spend New Year's Day together, and he made one (ONE) phone call to my cell phone that didn't reach me, and that was it. We live 100 yards from each other! He knows all three of my phone numbers. So I sent a snotty email and then he got pissed and other things and yah! On Monday, I cried like I have not cried in a long time. (a little detox going on there too).

Tonight, we had a chat, and it's very much better. I was even able to talk to him about going to see first bf this coming weekend. The only thing that got me through it was kind of NRE, I think. I just feel so full of love that it keeps giving me strength and I love them both for loving me and for loving each other. What they each have to give sustains me through what I don't get from the other.

Quite the adventure.

[AnnabelMore]

I'm glad to hear that things have been better!

[beginninglove]

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of your story, NovemberRain. It was very interesting to read and to be able to relate so much to some of the things you are going through. It is so up and down with my primary partner Alex that sometimes I find it hard to trust my intuition about what to do. We have been together 5 1/2 years and I can hardly believe how much growing we both have done in that span of time. Even though things get really hard sometimes, I can't believe how many deep issues (both personally and as a couple) we have been able to get to and start working through. Hers have a lot to do with insecurity and anger, mine to do with trusting myself and communication.

We have gotten a lot of support from poly friends in our community, and I feel incredibly blessed to live in an area where many of our friends are poly. Even so, sometimes I find it hard to talk to people about what is going on with me. With my very closest friends (most of whom are monogamous), for some reason I find it easier to talk with them when things are hard. Right now I am enjoying a particularly lovely period of NRE with K, and Alex has been fairly relaxed and supportive of the relationship lately.

What I have with K is quite different from what I had with Sam (who moved away recently), which I think is part of why I am drawn to her. Sam was very intense, boyish, younger than me, and somewhat impulsive, in a way that made her seem even younger than her years. She lived a bit like a vagabond, moving from one random living situation to another, her room always a mess like a frat boy's. We always had to find some neutral third party place to meet up because her living situations were always so precarious and my agreements with Alex are such that I cannot take other partners to our home. Sam is a very sexually open person and although she is a person of few words, I found it easy to communicate with her because she is so straightforward and receptive.

K on the other hand is older than me, a passionate artist while also being very grounded. She talks and laughs a lot and is more feminine than most women I am attracted to but also very tall, broad, and muscular. She is extremely sweet and thoughtful, has made dinner for me on multiple occasions already and always has flowers for me. She treats me like a total princess and is so tender and dreamy and sensual with me. I know this is the NRE making me swoon like this and I am trying to just relax into it and fully enjoy it. There's that part of me in the back of my mind feeling a bit nervous about the possibility of falling in love with her, although I know there are a million ways to define that and even if I did it could certainly be a beautiful thing and doesn't have to be scary.

I'm also trying to channel some of this warm, fuzzy, giddy, longing, glowy stuff that is coming up with K into the other areas of my life that need it, like work and my relationship with Alex. I have read that advice in multiple places on this site, and at times I've been able to feel how that might work. I wonder if folks have specific ideas about how to do that? Like how do I focus on work when all my mind wants to do is daydream about my amazing night last night with K?

[nycindie]

...how do I focus on work when all my mind wants to do is daydream about my amazing night last night with K?

Oh I can relate to this. When I was seeing Shorty, my therapist was getting really sick of me coming in and talking only about him, instead of other stuff I needed to handle. She said to me, "Of course it's more fun to fantasize about having sex all day with someone but you need to deal with [fill in the blanks]."

Ever watch Cesar Millan, the Dog Whisperer? When a dog is fixated on something, he gives them a little tap with his foot or makes a noise to distract them and bring their attention elsewhere. We have to learn to do that for ourselves. When we realize that we're drifting off into daydreamy musings even though the work is piled up in front of us, we just have to find a way to "pinch ourselves" back to reality.

I get distracted a lot, though, not by just relationships but by all my thoughts and ideas. It can be a challenge, and I still believe I have ADD tendencies, though no professionals seem to concur.

I often use something physical to get myself back on track, like if I'm sitting at my computer daydreaming, I get up and start working on something that needs me to actually lift, move, or use my hands in some way. Doing something that makes you have to walk from where you are to somewhere else, even if it's a trip to the copy machine or break room, is good because you're using the larger muscles of the legs and that can shift one's psychic energies from the mental activity of the brain to the body. If I'm daydreaming in bed, I get up and go do something. And sometimes I have to say out loud the things I need to do, like a little mantra or song, and keep repeating it until I get stuff done. Sounds silly but it works.

[beginninglove]

I often use something physical to get myself back on track, like if I'm sitting at my computer daydreaming, I get up and start working on something that needs me to actually lift, move, or use my hands in some way. Doing something that makes you have to walk from where you are to somewhere else, even if it's a trip to the copy machine or break room, is good because you're using the larger muscles of the legs and that can shift one's psychic energies from the mental activity of the brain to the body. If I'm daydreaming in bed, I get up and go do something. And sometimes I have to say out loud the things I need to do, like a little mantra or song, and keep repeating it until I get stuff done. Sounds silly but it works.

I love this advice. Just sitting at the computer makes it extra difficult, because this forum and K's Facebook profile ;) are just one click away... I think it might behoove me to get up and do some filing today!!

[beginninglove]

so i'm still as obsessed with this forum as ever, and feeling compelled to continue to post about my journey. i suppose that makes this more of a blog than a thread, so if it makes sense for a moderator to move this thread over to the life stories and blogs section, i would not be opposed. at first i was thinking that i'd need to change the title of this thread if it became a blog, but actually its still quite apropos. although i am now in NRE with K instead of sam, i think its telling that many of the same thoughts and feelings that i had in the beginning with sam are now coming up again for me with K.

i imagine that for those folks who are experienced with poly, this is old hat... this falling feeling, the physical cravings for that person, the obsessive thoughts. it all feels so fabulous but is also such an intense exercise in patience and self-restraint. it is so tempting to throw myself into this, to want to try to spend every possible moment with her, its like a little tiny hit of a powerfully addictive drug every time i look at a picture of her. they are not kidding when they compare this feeling to cocaine!!

being a queer woman, poly is certainly not unheard of in our community but it seems more common among the gay men than the women. its been years since i've been in any semblance of a straight world, so it is interesting to me to read the stories here and find that i can relate so well to them. immersed in a gay world, it is easy for me to make up that i don't have anything in common with straight people. crazy, i know.

things with alex are progressing. i think about what someone posted a couple of months ago, about how poly relationships only work if a person thinks their primary is just as (or more) fabulous as the other person/people she sees, and even though my feelings for alex are different, and sometimes i do fall into questioning the whole relationship (and probably will continue to do so at times), i do have enormous love and respect for her as i am watching her face her deepest demons and be willing to stretch way past her comfort zones in order to truly partner with me in this journey.

alex is travelling for work soon and will be gone for a week. i am feeling so excited and nervous about getting to spend a lot more time with K while alex is gone. for the first time, i will be able to sleep over at K's place and spend a lot of lazy time with her without having to look at the clock. i know for sure this will send me even deeper into the NRE, which almost feels like anticipating a drug binge! i know the indulgence will feel so good, but i also know the withdrawal will be almost as equally intense.

[beginninglove]

i know i have said it before and i will say it again...NRE is extremely distracting. i have vowed to keep my mind on work today, and it works for short stretches of time and then my mind is off and wandering again. it reminds of the meditation analogy...our minds are like untrained puppies, you tell them to sit and they might for a second, and then they are off and running again. it takes a lot of practice to get that puppy to sit for long periods of time.

now that alex is away on business travel, it is up to me to figure out where my boundaries and time limits are when it comes to seeing K. all of me wants to throw myself into this with her and spend as much time as i possibly can inhaling the smell of her skin. intellectually i know this is a drug and i'm on an intense high and i should probably be careful, but the reckless and fun-loving part of me says, to hell with it! i am going to enjoy this for as long as it lasts!

it is also hard for me to not really fully know how K is feeling, lately she seesm more cautious than she did in the beginning and i am not sure what to attribute that to. over the past week we have not seen each other because i needed to spend more quality time with alex before she left, so i wonder if K is just not sure where we stand. its hard to know how much to delve into these "processing" types of conversations so early on in the relationship. so much of our connection (but not all) up to this point has been intensely physical, she is so tall and strong and sweet, it is hard for me not to just want to jump her when i see her and let the pheromones take over.

in my other world, alex has been exceptionally sensitive lately. needing a lot of reassurance and crying very easily. no matter how much time i spend with her, no matter how patient i am with her emotional outbursts, no matter how many times she says she is entering this mono/poly situation with me willingly and consensually, it seems like she is never fully secure and able to let go of her anxiety. at times she says she is feeling good, but its almost like an overcompensation, like "i know i'm the best partner and you are never going to leave me" but that sentiment never lasts long. last night she expressed worry that i would enjoy my time with her away so much that i would decide my life is more fun without her. i was so excited to have more freedom while she is gone that i didn't really know what to say. i love her and we do have fun together, but being with her feels so draining at times.

[NovemberRain]

I know what you mean about 'inhaling her skin.' :D Somehow, my warm neck scarf smells like First bf, and every time I put it on, it distracts me for a moment. I've always been overly scents-itive.

I have been overcome with new-found appreciation for Current bf at 'giving' me this, and 'allowing' this, and even supporting this (with First bf). The fact that I have them both allows me to overlook perceived 'flaws' in the other. They complement each other so well.

Do you have plans for staying in touch with Alex while she's traveling? My hallucinating myself in her situation says I'd be so thrilled to have texts or emails or phone calls from you; just reminding me I'm loved and thought of, even though I'm away.

[beginninglove]

thanks for reading and replying, NovemberRain. its nice to hear from you!

last night i had a really intense playdate with K, i am feeling so charged by my intense attraction to her and the physicality of our connection. i have found it hard to broach the topic of "what is happening" between us and there are a lot of questions i have for her that i somehow haven't found the courage to ask, like does she consider herself poly? what is her relationship history? and even, is she dating other people at the moment? seems like such basic information that we would have sorted out before we got involved, but i think we are both so afraid of seeming "processy" and wanting to be light and fluid with each other that we are probably avoiding some important topics.

alex and i are staying in touch while she is away via text and exchanging voicemails, and talking on the phone when possible. its hard because i know she feels extra sensitive when she is not able to reach me, like late last night when i was with K. i sent her some cute pics early this morning of me in bed snuggling with our dog so she would know i slept at home and was thinking of her. i am totally blown away by her ability to "give me this" with K. so totally appreciative.

so far alex does not have an interest in getting to know K. she seems to understand how it could potentially be helpful, but has concerns that she will come off as an overprotective spouse. i do wonder about alex's emotionality and how that could potentially get triggered in an interaction between them. i wonder if it might help to wait until things are feeling a little more familiar with K, and maybe even having the NRE wear off a little first.

The fact that I have them both allows me to overlook perceived 'flaws' in the other. They complement each other so well.


this is really interesting to me too...the ways that K and alex are so different in many ways and how that has been enhancing my life so much. K has this very tough, kind of rough-around-the-edges appeal even though she is more feminine in her presentation and is more sexually receptive than alex. alex is so sensitive and needs so much from me emotionally that it feels like a nice break to be with K, where we just chat and have fun and have wild passionate sex. obviously the two relationships are not at all comparable, given that i've been with alex for 5+ years and K and i are so new to each other. what a gift though to have an outlet, a bit of an escape even, from the pressures of marriage and the inevitable changes that happen in long-term relationships around intimacy and sexuality, but also have that stability and sense of home and family to rely on.

[beginninglove]

so i know i saw this coming in many ways. totally predictable, i suppose. but i am IN IT with K. i have totally chosen this in some ways, by spending so much time with her while alex is away. physically i am just melting into her. we spent all of sunday in her bed, only getting dressed to answer the door for food delivery. completely heavenly.

i am so taken by her that i do feel a little scared. its too easy for me to go to this place of judging, comparing, worrying about how good this feels, wondering if i am an NRE addict or something since i had it pretty bad for sam too. this is only my second ongoing sexual relationship since alex and i opened up our relationship last summer, so i still feel so new and inexperienced with this, trying to keep it all in perspective.

i do feel like i am falling in love with K, but there are so many ways to define that. its been a month since we started seeing each other, so by some definitions there is no way we could know each other well enough for it to be love, it has to be NRE, of course. the sex is AMAYYZING, i am so into her physically, last night she made me scream and it felt really emotionally intense. i hope i didn't scare her with how intense i was feeling. but even besides the sex, i love hearing her talk, love hearing her stories, i am completely inspired by how creative and artistic she is.

it is hard to know how much to say to alex. she says she likes to be in the loop and wants to know what is going on with me, but she also says she appreicates that i practice "loving-kindness" in my communication with her as opposed to "radical honesty". so its hard to know sometimes what is considered "withholding information" as opposed to being gentle in my communication. do i need to tell alex i feel like i might be falling in love with K when it might just be NRE and is too soon to know what is going to happen?

alex has been reading tristan taormino's book "opening up" and it has been really helpful. she has been a lot more patient with me and able to ask directly for what she needs in terms of reassurance and information and such.

my best friend said to me the other day "i am not sure what you are doing being married." i don't know how much that has to do with her not really getting the poly stuff or if maybe she onto the same thing that others on this forum have suggested. i don't always know what i am doing being married, but i guess all will be revealed in time.

[beginninglove]

i'm not really sure why i continue to be compelled to post on this blog, as i feel like my story is sort of boring and old hat compared to some of the others on this forum. not that it matters, because i suppose it is giving me an opportunity to reflect and perhaps offer my experience as something that someone else might be able to learn something from someday. still though, i wonder why i am writing here instead of just journaling about it.

alex has been quite emotional lately even though she has also been very open and inviting me to talk about my feelings for K. we have been doing pretty well with holding everything that is going on, but it has been very emotional for both of us. mostly i just want more freedom and alex wants more of my time and energy. it is a hard balance to strike. i have been doing everything i can to reassure her and pay her as much attention as i can, making sure to make extra time for her and make special plans for us to have quality time together.

it is hard to balance all the feelings and energy that comes with the NRE with the intensity and sometimes heaviness that comes with transitioning an existing mono relationship into a poly one. i find myself fantasizing about leaving again even though we are getting better about being able to work through our communication issues and alex has been able to get comfortable with me having more and more freedom to do what i want and make requests that she was previously uncomfortable with, like me sleeping over at K's occasionally.

i suppose my fantasies about leaving still have to do with just wanting to do whatever i want without having to be accountable or restrict myself to preserve someone else's feelings, but maybe that is just me needing to learn how to strike this balance and manage my NRE better. i am still so new at this, and the energy with K has all the classic NRE symptoms: adrenaline surges, distracting thoughts, high sexual energy, junkie-like cravings. i miss her constantly, and i am distracted by thoughts of her when i am with alex.

i find myself "going through the motions" with alex in terms of sex, even kissing, although we have always been easily affectionate when it comes to cuddling and such and that part hasn't changed. she talks about fears of being the "cuddly, dependable teddy bear" instead of someone exciting and sexy to me and i fear she is kind of right. i think it could help me if she got a crush on someone else, but she says she is still not ready for that and might not ever be. she may just be wired for monogamy and that's okay, but sometimes it does feel like a lot of pressure on me.

[bassman]

i'm not really sure why i continue to be compelled to post on this blog, as i feel like my story is sort of boring and old hat compared to some of the others on this forum.

Please keep posting, I'm enjoying your story. ;)

[rory]

^Agreed. :) I started to write the following, and I see that the situation you have with Alex is a lot like the one I had with my husband Alec (hah :D) for a long time. I managed to initiate change, and we lived through the changes to this point, where both of us are more independent and more satisfied. Just that I notice that the text will be long, and I am sorry if you feel like it's too much, or too coloured by my own experience. I want to share what I feel can help you, but if you wish me to shut up in your journal, please tell me so. ;)

mostly i just want more freedom and alex wants more of my time and energy. it is a hard balance to strike.

Hmm, I see a dynamic here, one where it is always you who wants more freedom, and it is always Alex who wants more from you. I wonder if there was any way to break free from that dynamic.

Obviously, breaking up will do that for you, but that's sort of an easy way out (even though it's hard!). I think falling into a dynamic that isn't really working for either, that is a compromise for both of you and not in a good way, is not uncommon. It can be hard to change the dynamic, so hard that in the end, when resentment has built enough, people see no way out but ending the whole relationship. Yet, the reason neither of the persons initiated change was because they were afraid that the relationship wouldn't survive. Do you see my point?

The dynamic you have. Right now you do have an incompability. You are in a situation where you feel the most pressing need for freedom, indepencence, and lack of restrictions. It seems from that perspective like Alex and her needs are standing in the way of that, but we don't know why she needs what she needs (or, well, I don't know, you may have some idea, and Alex may have some idea or know, but it may be unclear to her as well). It may be that Alex wants a partner who is there for her a lot more than you can provide. But it may also be that the reason she needs much from you is because she is afraid of something; of loosing you, or of grabbing her own independence, or looking at what she wants and finding out that even if she feels like she needs a relationship with you she doesn't want one (e.g. because of the whole poly thing).

And really, Alex isn't standing in the way of anything. You are restraining yourself because you are afraid and maybe you think that is what relationships are about. (And, often, it is how relationships work, but it's not always something that brings happiness.) You need to figure out your own needs in terms of independence, and you need to make boundaries. That links in with this:

i find myself "going through the motions" with alex in terms of sex, even kissing, although we have always been easily affectionate when it comes to cuddling and such and that part hasn't changed.

Going through the motions isn't good. But that is excactly one of the problems when you don't have proper boundaries for yourself: you can't truly enjoy other person's company and be present. It is very likely that there are good aspects to your relationship with Alex, and there are things you appreciate about her, and you do want to spend time and cuddle and be affectionate with her. But it is just not possible to see all that when you are too close. You aren't able to miss her if you feel you are spending so much time together that it's suffocating you. You can't enjoy touch if it's there even when you don't want to be touched. Do you agree? This is one of the reasons why it is actually better for Alex, too, when you do make your boundaries. She may resist them, because people easily resist change, and fear what it may lead to. But the position she is in now isn't really fair to her, is it? That she is this annoyance and hindrance between you and all you want, and your relationship with her feels like a duty rather than something you want. When really you would very likely actually want it, if only you would reject the idea that Alex is entitled to your time, and take the space and time you need for yourself.

i think it could help me if she got a crush on someone else, but she says she is still not ready for that and might not ever be. she may just be wired for monogamy and that's okay, but sometimes it does feel like a lot of pressure on me.

And you do see that Alex finding another partner is another easy way out of the compromise situation where you are, just like breaking up is? The hard way out is for you to figure out what level of independence you need for yourself, making boundaries around that, expressing them to Alex, and then living by them while waiting patiently to see her response: if she will try to pressure you to give in (which may happen but you need to resist in order to hold onto your boundaries), if she will be unhappy and break up with you, or if she can, with time, find ways to happiness in the new situation/dynamic.

Now, I do think the whole NRE stuff is going to complicate things, and that is unfortunate. I think you should put the other relationship aside in your thoughts when you are figuring this out: what level of independence do you want, in general? I doubt it would be healthy for you to state "I want time and space for myself" and then spend all your time with K (as you seem to realise yourself, when you talk about the possibility of being single, that even if you had all the freedom to be with K 24/7 it wouldn't actually be good for you). Maybe you could start by making boundaries around the NRE thing: not the ones that are needed by Alex, but ones that you think are needed for your own benefit. Maybe, if Alex is away from home, your reaction shouldn't be to run to K but to be alone and do your own thing?

Do you think it is possible for you to stay where you are and work on this? Do you think it would be better for you to distance yourself from the situation? What if you moved out, to your own apartment, and focused on yourself? Is that a scary thought, moving out? How do you think Alex would react to that proposal? The scarier it feels, the more necessary it probably is, because the harder it is for you to make changes when you're living with Alex.

This is an example: how do you feel about the idea that you would move out and get your own apartment. This would be agreed for a set period of time, say, 4 months, and then revisited. During this time, you would make a boundary with yourself and commit to it, that you will only meet with K once a week (max. 24 hours at a time). You would also express this to Alex, as something you have decided, not as something she is making you do. You also agree with Alex to meet two times a week, once to work on your relationship with all the heavy talking and processing and feelings and stuff, and once to spend time together relaxing and cuddling and enjoying each other's company, trying to focus on that. The rest of the time is for yourself, for your own, independent life, not connected to your romantic/sexual partners. You can take time for friends and hobbies, but you should also take time for yourself.

How do you feel about that example? Do you see that there are aspects there that would be helpful? Feel free to modify. :) [Sorry to write a novel! I'm writing because I want to help, but it also helps me to process my own thoughts around these things, that's why it's long.]

[beginninglove]

Please keep posting, I'm enjoying your story. ;)

Thank you, bassman. I didn't know it when I wrote that but I guess I was curious if anyone was reading!

[beginninglove]

And really, Alex isn't standing in the way of anything. You are restraining yourself because you are afraid and maybe you think that is what relationships are about. (And, often, it is how relationships work, but it's not always something that brings happiness.) You need to figure out your own needs in terms of independence, and you need to make boundaries.

This is so true and helpful and something I really feel like I am working hard with right now. Learning how to tap into my own inner sense of what it is I need and want and communicating that. There is a lot of guilt overlaying my feelings and actions right now, and as you suggest I need to keep letting go of that and let Alex have her reactions and do what she needs to do to take care of herself. I think part of what's hard for me is this concept of "going at the pace of the one who is struggling most", where the idea that if Alex states some boundaries she has, let's use sleeping over at K's house as an example, and I push back on that and say "actually i really would like to sleep over at K's house and I want the freedom to make that decision for myself" is that me being selfish and pushing her too quickly? i have said that and she has agreed to relax that boundary, but she also has been crying a lot and grieving the loss of what she thought this relationship was going to look like when we had our commitment ceremony. its hard for me to see her so sad, and I have been practicing not trying to "fix" anything but just let her have her feelings.



You aren't able to miss her if you feel you are spending so much time together that it's suffocating you. You can't enjoy touch if it's there even when you don't want to be touched. Do you agree? This is one of the reasons why it is actually better for Alex, too, when you do make your boundaries. She may resist them, because people easily resist change, and fear what it may lead to. But the position she is in now isn't really fair to her, is it? That she is this annoyance and hindrance between you and all you want, and your relationship with her feels like a duty rather than something you want. When really you would very likely actually want it, if only you would reject the idea that Alex is entitled to your time, and take the space and time you need for yourself.


It is true, I have been operating from the perspective that Alex is entitled to my time. She asks for things and I feel like I have to give them to her in order to keep her happy and also to get the freedom I want. This is a terrible dynamic. I do romantic things for her because she asks me to, and I do them hoping that that will be enough to keep her happy and reassured for awhile. I do feel genuine appreciation for how hard she has been working on herself and her issues with anger, and I authentically tell her that often. But I see that we are in an unhealthy dynamic where I am somehow set up to have the power to dole out reassurances and time and energy and she is left asking for whatever she can get. She is learning to take care of herself but she still looks to me too often to get what she thinks she needs.


And you do see that Alex finding another partner is another easy way out of the compromise situation where you are, just like breaking up is? The hard way out is for you to figure out what level of independence you need for yourself, making boundaries around that, expressing them to Alex, and then living by them while waiting patiently to see her response: if she will try to pressure you to give in (which may happen but you need to resist in order to hold onto your boundaries), if she will be unhappy and break up with you, or if she can, with time, find ways to happiness in the new situation/dynamic.


YES! This really resonates with me. I have been trying to work through the (nearly constant) impulse to leave, because I know in many ways it would be the easy thing to do. For the first time ever, yesterday she mentioned us breaking up as her idea, and I actually felt a sense of relief. Maybe that is ultimately what may happen, but I do see that there is something to be worked through here even if that does happen in the future. Like its not time yet, and if we were to just wash our hands of the whole thing without actually struggling thorugh the place where I get to explore and express my boundaries and individuality and she gets to sit with that and decide how she wants to react, we will have missed a growth opportunity here. And this unhealthy dynamic would probably come back to play out again in future relationships.


Now, I do think the whole NRE stuff is going to complicate things, and that is unfortunate. I think you should put the other relationship aside in your thoughts when you are figuring this out: what level of independence do you want, in general? I doubt it would be healthy for you to state "I want time and space for myself" and then spend all your time with K (as you seem to realise yourself, when you talk about the possibility of being single, that even if you had all the freedom to be with K 24/7 it wouldn't actually be good for you). Maybe you could start by making boundaries around the NRE thing: not the ones that are needed by Alex, but ones that you think are needed for your own benefit. Maybe, if Alex is away from home, your reaction shouldn't be to run to K but to be alone and do your own thing?


You are right, the NRE thing does complicate things and challenges me to also hold my boundaries with K. Fortunately I am doing a lot of intensive spiritual work right now that helps to reinforce the idea that I really need a lot of time to myself, to integrate what is going on with me and what I am learning. I cannot do that if I am having sex with K 24/7. Which is extremely tempting, but she's older than me and needs more breaks from that level of physical exertion anyway. ;) I have begun to see that NRE is hard for me, I tend to get really drawn into it and have a hard time holding boundaries as I do in other parts of my life as well. I act somewhat complusively at times, responding like a junkie to that addictive quality that NRE can take on. I am trying to become more aware of that. My spiritual teacher gave me some good advice that resonated with me about this, she said that when this intense energy comes up I need to learn how to internalize it, save some of it for myself instead of giving it all away. Keep it, sit with it, reabsorb it back into my body, and then when I do go to act on it or give it away to K or whoever, it will comes from a higher place and not a place of need or impulse. I suppose that is what other people here have said, but for some reason the concept of "internalizing" it rather than rushing to give it all away really struck a cord with me.


Do you think it is possible for you to stay where you are and work on this? Do you think it would be better for you to distance yourself from the situation? What if you moved out, to your own apartment, and focused on yourself? Is that a scary thought, moving out? How do you think Alex would react to that proposal? The scarier it feels, the more necessary it probably is, because the harder it is for you to make changes when you're living with Alex.

This is an example: how do you feel about the idea that you would move out and get your own apartment. This would be agreed for a set period of time, say, 4 months, and then revisited. During this time, you would make a boundary with yourself and commit to it, that you will only meet with K once a week (max. 24 hours at a time). You would also express this to Alex, as something you have decided, not as something she is making you do. You also agree with Alex to meet two times a week, once to work on your relationship with all the heavy talking and processing and feelings and stuff, and once to spend time together relaxing and cuddling and enjoying each other's company, trying to focus on that. The rest of the time is for yourself, for your own, independent life, not connected to your romantic/sexual partners. You can take time for friends and hobbies, but you should also take time for yourself.


Alex and I have talked quite a few times about the possiblity of a "trial separation". This idea is very scary to Alex but not to me. She reacts strongly when I bring this up, and has started to feel like it is a threat that I use when I am not getting what I want. I do think that this would be helpful in terms of me learning how to set and stick to my own boundaries, but I have not yet figured out how to implement this kind of solution. I know it is just a matter of doing it, that the logistics and money and emotions and everything else would just work themselves out as they were meant to, so I don't fully understand why I am so paralyzed in terms of taking this action. I feel relief when I think about it, not fear. The only thing that feels like a block about it to me is Alex's reaction. I suppose that is what "codependence" is, doing things to protect someone else rather than what is right for you.


[Sorry to write a novel! I'm writing because I want to help, but it also helps me to process my own thoughts around these things, that's why it's long.]

Thank you so much for your feedback. I went and read a bit about your situation and was shocked to read that you are so young. You seem wise beyond your years! I really appreciate reading your thoughts.

[idealist]

Thank you, bassman. I didn't know it when I wrote that but I guess I was curious if anyone was reading!

Haha...you've had 5,656 views as of today....I think people are reading!!
Keep it up!!

[nycindie]

Alex and I have talked quite a few times about the possiblity of a "trial separation". This idea is very scary to Alex but not to me. She reacts strongly when I bring this up, and has started to feel like it is a threat that I use when I am not getting what I want. I do think that this would be helpful in terms of me learning how to set and stick to my own boundaries, but I have not yet figured out how to implement this kind of solution. I know it is just a matter of doing it, that the logistics and money and emotions and everything else would just work themselves out as they were meant to, so I don't fully understand why I am so paralyzed in terms of taking this action. I feel relief when I think about it, not fear. The only thing that feels like a block about it to me is Alex's reaction.

That feeling of being paralyzed is just your fears around asserting yourself. You deserve to ask for what you want - who will advocate for your needs, if not you?

If I were you, and you still want a trial separation, make sure you don't bring it up in the heat of an argument or fight. I would wait for a situation where you're both relaxed and comfortable, and you talk to her in a matter-of-fact, even, calm tone. Make sure she knows that you feel being on your own for a while would do wonders for your sense of self and matters of esteem and boundaries, and that it's not (mostly) about getting away from her. If she flies into a rage or breaks down in sobs, don't let yourself get sucked into her drama. You might have to psychically take a step back, and create a little barrier around you to see her more objectively and stay strong within yourself, but sometimes that is the only way to do it.

[Anneintherain]

I'm reluctant to chime in since I haven't commented on this before, but I'm going to anyway :rolleyes:

You have the right to have what you want. I know things with Alex have been strained. Right now I don't think you're being very fair to her. I was impressed with how after you stuck it out over the holidays, she tried hard to be able to relax boundaries, etc.

I think for all the first months of this, you were focusing on letting her know that relationships with and dating others did not mean she was less important to you, and that she was your priority.

It seems now like that she's struggled and worked to do her best to accept what is for her a difficult situation, you have checked out because of NRE with K. It could seem like maybe you were waiting for somebody better to come along that could be your primary before you took the step of actually getting around to separate from Alex (since it didn't work out with Sam) and now you're so focused on how amazing K is that you don't feel any desire to work on your relationship with Alex.

I think it might be really wise to talk to K about all these feelings and questions you wonder about that you're reluctant to talk about because you want to keep it light and easy. I think that could really help place the NRE in perspective. I don't know if you have finally broached the subjects such as - is she poly, is she dating other people, etc yet, but I suggest you discuss those things.

I don't know if that's similar to your fear of being honest with Alex about your feelings earlier with Sam (sex ok, dating not, so you didn't broach that you had feelings for Sam) and now having trouble being 100% honest with both Alex and K about what you want and feel because you don't want to rock the boat and talk about the hard stuff.

Anyway, I wrote more than I meant to. Basically I just wanted to suggest that Alex is deserving to be happy too. If you aren't even interested in being happy with her, drawing this out isn't really fair to anybody. She has been difficult surely, but I do think that you presented her with a LOT - the situation with Sam, then wanting to go out with an acquaintance and playing with that couple you are friends with, then this AMAZING best ever relationship with K. (That getting pissed off when you came home from a date without showering...yes it IS reasonable that you be able to manage that boundary, I would've taken that as passive aggressive myself) Always possible she sensed that you were being less than honest about your feelings and that made some of her behavior even worse because she was so afraid.

Oh look I got lost in my summary again...where was I...do what will be kindest for both of you. Be honest with her about where you stand.

[AnnabelMore]

i'm not really sure why i continue to be compelled to post on this blog, as i feel like my story is sort of boring and old hat compared to some of the others on this forum.

You never know when someone else might be reading and thinking "Wow, I can relate to that... I'm not alone." We're such a small community, I think it's *always* helpful to share our stories.

I wish I had more useful advice right now, but I wanted to at least say that!

[beginninglove]

Haha...you've had 5,656 views as of today....I think people are reading!!
Keep it up!!

oh! thanks for making a very good point!

[beginninglove]

That feeling of being paralyzed is just your fears around asserting yourself. You deserve to ask for what you want - who will advocate for your needs, if not you?



yes, there is still so much self-judgment in me around feeling like i just need to try harder. stick it out even when i don't feel like it. but perhaps ultimately that is not fair to alex even when i'm thinking that i am doing this for US, for our relationship.

[beginninglove]

I think it might be really wise to talk to K about all these feelings and questions you wonder about that you're reluctant to talk about because you want to keep it light and easy. I think that could really help place the NRE in perspective. I don't know if you have finally broached the subjects such as - is she poly, is she dating other people, etc yet, but I suggest you discuss those things.

I have broached those topics and discovered that K has not ever been in a poly relationship, and hasn't dated anyone for quite awhile because she's been prioritizing her sobriety for the past couple of years. So she's not dating anyone else either, and right now doesn't have the desire to.

This past weekend Alex asked me to set up a meeting with K, so the two of htem could talk and she could have a chance to get to know her a little bit. This is a first for us, so it will be interesting to see what happens and if/how the dynamics will shift.



Basically I just wanted to suggest that Alex is deserving to be happy too. If you aren't even interested in being happy with her, drawing this out isn't really fair to anybody. She has been difficult surely, but I do think that you presented her with a LOT - the situation with Sam, then wanting to go out with an acquaintance and playing with that couple you are friends with, then this AMAZING best ever relationship with K. (That getting pissed off when you came home from a date without showering...yes it IS reasonable that you be able to manage that boundary, I would've taken that as passive aggressive myself) Always possible she sensed that you were being less than honest about your feelings and that made some of her behavior even worse because she was so afraid.

Oh look I got lost in my summary again...where was I...do what will be kindest for both of you. Be honest with her about where you stand.

Thanks for this. I must admit it is not always easy to hear but deep down I know somehow this is not fair to Alex. She is trying really hard, and even though this is hard for me too in terms of sitting with her extreme emotionality, I know it is my responsibility to be honest about my feelings no matter how hard it is to say or how guilty I feel. We are both working really hard to keep this relationship together, but I'm not sure its for the right reasons.

[nycindie]

This past weekend Alex asked me to set up a meeting with K, so the two of htem could talk and she could have a chance to get to know her a little bit. This is a first for us, so it will be interesting to see what happens and if/how the dynamics will shift.If K. wants to. She might not, and she doesn't have to. How do you think Alex will react of K. doesn't want to meet her?

[beginninglove]

If K. wants to. She might not, and she doesn't have to. How do you think Alex will react of K. doesn't want to meet her?

Fortunately K did agree to it and even though she is nervous, she thinks its a good idea. I think Alex would have had a hard time with it if K did not want to meet her. I think Alex would have assumed it meant that K has some sort of animosity toward her or a lack of respect for our relationship. They are meeting up for coffee this afternoon, and I am so curious to hear how it will go. I am sure it will go quite well, as they are both respectful, nice people who are approaching this situation with good intentions and simply a desire to humanize each other. Neither one of them has the intention of becoming best friends or anything, but a friend of ours advised Alex not to rule friendship with K out completely. I am glad they are meeting, as it somehow feels like letting out some tension in the air or something. I am still struggling to just take my own feelings day by day, still questioning whether staying with Alex is the right thing, but I guess when I am ready to leave I will do it, if that is indeed my path. My feelings for K are as intense as ever, so I'm trying to keep the NRE in perspective and take breaks from her even when it is really hard to do so.

[nycindie]

Fortunately K did agree to it ... They are meeting up for coffee this afternoon, and I am so curious to hear how it will go.
So, you're not going along? I hope things go very well with them. Do come back and give an update afterward. I am rooting for you, and I know others are, too!

[beginninglove]

So, you're not going along? I hope things go very well with them. Do come back and give an update afterward. I am rooting for you, and I know others are, too!

Nope, not going along. I feel pretty confident that things will go well, although I feel anxious just thinking about it so I can't imagine how they must be feeling. Alex took half of an anti-anxiety pill and K texted me to say she was feeling nervous, so at least they are both in it together!

I think the hardest thing for me would be if either one of them came away with negative judgments about the other and then felt compelled to share those with me.

[beginninglove]

Oh, and thanks so much for your support!!

[beginninglove]

so i heard from Alex that her coffee meet-up with K went really well. sounds like they just chatted about random things they happen to have in common and spent time getting a sense of each other. they are both sweet, amazing people so i knew it wasn't going to be a problem. just something new and different for us. Alex took an anti-anxiety pill so she was feeling very chill and K talks a lot when she is nervous, so it sounds like K probably did most of the talking. :p Alex said she got a really good feeling from K, good energy and such. Its nice to have her see that for herself and to have my fears about her finding something critical to say not come to fruition. So I am very happy with this new development!

[Anneintherain]

Great to hear! Don't be surprised if Alex or K go through a bit of moodiness and ups and downs over the next couple of days. Even when I meet a metamour and think they are awesome, I can find that it makes me a bit more prone to be unexpectedly emotional for a bit. Really glad they got along.

[beginninglove]

Great to hear! Don't be surprised if Alex or K go through a bit of moodiness and ups and downs over the next couple of days. Even when I meet a metamour and think they are awesome, I can find that it makes me a bit more prone to be unexpectedly emotional for a bit. Really glad they got along.

Funny you should say that. Just last night Alex had a dream that I was leaving her for K. In the past she has said things like "I don't see it", meaning she doesn't get my attraction to K because she's not my usual "type". But after meeting her, I think Alex does get it now, and even though she's glad she met K and likes her, the fact that she "gets it" now seems to be bringing up a new level of anxiety in her.

I have only been able to text with K since their meeting, so I am not entirely sure how she is feeling. As for me, I have been missing K a lot these past few days, as I promised Alex I would not see K until after Alex leaves on her work trip. So I still have a couple of days to go, but I really really miss her.

[beginninglove]

So the NRE with K is intensifying, which I suppose was to be expected while Alex is away traveling for work. I haven't spent *every* free moment with K while Alex has been gone, but certainly a lot more than when Alex is around. I have been very honest with Alex about the amount of time I have been spending with K, and she has been struggling with it to a certain extent but she's also been fairly understanding and accepting.

I have been reading a lot on the internet about limerance and how limerance is both similar and different from NRE. I wonder if anyone has read Tennov's book and if they feel they gained anything from it? From what I can gather, limerance could be thought of as sometimes occurring at the very beginning of NRE, when one is not sure if their feelings are reciprocated. Beyond just the uncertainty though, there is a feeling of fixation, obsessiveness even, where the person has intrusive thoughts about their LO (Love or Limerance Object) and experiences extreme mood swings - feelings of extreme euphoria or extreme heartache - depending on the responses they are getting from their LO in terms of instilling or dashing their hope for reciprocation.

I have been interested in all of this because of how this thing with K is affecting me. The descriptions of limerance are all pretty accurate in reflecting what I have been going through, except that I do know that K reciprocates my feelings. Still, I find myself obsessing when she doesn't respond to texts right away (hello!! she's working!), and having insanity-inducing intrusive thoughts to the point that I am finding it very difficult to concentrate on anything else. Its both a euphoric feeling and also very maddening. I've also looked up treatments for obsessive-compulsive disorder, since limerance does share some qualities with OCD, and some of the techniques, like thought stopping and response inhibition seem like they could work for a time (like making myself do something else for a given period of time, or preventing myself from texting her for a certain amount of time) but ultimately the core issue is not addressed.

I know this will just fade with time, and I will be both wistful and thankful when it does, but for now I feel a bit crazy. I also feel nervous about Alex returning home and being able to sense my insanity. My work has been suffering as well, and the scary thing is that I don't really care all that much. I took the day off from work today so that I could stay home and clean the house for when Alex gets home, so that I'd be able to spend the whole weekend with K without having to worry about laundry.

Am I being foolish??? I also wonder if somehow I am prone to this sort of obsessive thinking or limerance somehow, since I did experience it for a short time with Sam too. And it did fade. I wonder if this situation with K is triggering something in me like an NRE or limerance addict, since I know these things do affect the chemicals in your brain. I looked into the concept of sex addiction awhile back because I thought that might be my problem, but it didn't seem to fit what I was going through, and I thought it was very pathologizing of people whose sexuality is just different from the mainstream concept of how things "should" be (i.e. heterosexual monogamous life-long marriage). Not to say that sex addicts don't exist, but I just think the concept has become way too broadly defined.

Is there such a thing as an NRE or limerance addict??

[MeeraReed]

I'm glad you keep posting your story and I appreciate reading it. Your story has stuck in my mind since you first posted here.

I totally sympathize with what you're going through. Guilt is a hard emotion to deal with.

It sounds like Alex is trying really hard and is making a lot of progress.

But I'm still sad for Alex too. She deserves to have someone who is as excited by her as you are by K.

The "cuddly, dependable teddy bear" comment seems to capture the heart of it. Alex knows you feel that way about her; you know you feel that way about her. I can't imagine spending the rest of my life with someone who feels only cuddly with me but crazy-in-love with other people.

You wish Alex would try dating other people herself so she could experience the thrill of having those feelings. But, in the first place, she's been so broken down by her struggle to make things work with you that I can't imagine she has any energy left to try dating others (even if she weren't oriented towards being mono).

Secondly, what if she does meet someone else she's compatible with and with whom feels all those in-love feelings? If that happened, wouldn't it make more sense for you and Alex to separate and each go off to experience your various loves?

Or would you stay together no matter what? Do you want to grow old with Alex? Maybe "cuddly teddy bear" feelings are the secret to growing old together, and those tender feelings will outlast the rush and physicality of new love.

I don't know the answer to these questions, and I have no idea what I would do in your place.

But I still worry that the underlying issue is simply that you and Alex aren't right for each other. You said originally that you and Alex weren't really sexually compatible. I know Alex struggles with being sexually open--but maybe there is someone else (or some other type of person) with whom she could be more sexually open.

There might be circumstances in which two people who aren't sexually compatible with each other could still be happy in a primary relationship together. BUT it has to be special circumstances.

The two people have to agree that they aren't sexually compatible, that they are more cuddly/best-friend-ish AND that's the way they want it.

Then they can both have other relationships to explore/satisfy their separate sexualities. (Or, if one partner is more asexual and happy being mono, the other could have outside relationships).

But they have to be on the same page about it. It sounds like Alex really longs to be sexually compatible with you, and doesn't understand why she's not. (Maybe she's never been sexually compatible with anyone, and it's a source of great pain for her).

Sorry--I don't mean to bring discouragement here when you and Alex have made so much progress since last fall.

It just makes me sad thinking of her point of view.

On the other hand, I think she's totally unreasonable about the showering rule. It's like telling you that you're dirty if you see other people. It's almost like punishment.

[beginninglove]

thanks MeeraReed. again you have given me a lot to think about, and i really appreciate your forthrightness and thoughtfulness. it is so helpful to get feedback from someone with an objective perspective. i continue to struggle with what my relationship with alex is really about, and why i continue to stay.

there are so many practical reasons to stay: the house, the financial entwinement, our connections to each other's families, our mutual community. i know those are not entire justifications for staying, but they are things that come to mind when i think about the loss of our marriage. we did get married, too, (in the way that gay people can) in the sense that we exchanged vows and made a commitment in front of our loved ones to uphold those vows. not that those are a complete reason to stay either. alex is someone i can count on, someone who knows me completely, someone who shares my values about the kind of life i want to live. when i think about leaving, those are the things i worry about losing and never finding again. strangely though, i don't worry about being alone or single, i know i can take care of myself and i know that i am capable of connecting with many types of people in different ways.

i am always daydreaming lately about having the freedom to spend time with K in the way i want to, in a relaxed, "free time" and "play time" kind of way, where she can leisurely show me how to work with oil paints, we can go on motorcycle rides, make meals together, etc. without this pressure of alex making demands on my time. now that alex is home, i feel claustrophobic again. all she wants is just to be with me, spend time with me and reconnect in a very sweet way, but i feel like i can't breathe. i know something is wrong with this whole situation, but i still am terrified to do anything about it. i am terrified of hurting her, knowing how devastated she will be. i also don't know how much longer i can go on like this. i have felt paralyzed by the situation for so long.

[beginninglove]

i just re-read this blog from the beginning and got totally frustrated with myself. if someone else had written this, i would tell them to grab themselves by the balls and do it already!! so sad to waste life living in fear of making a mistake, but that is precisely what i am doing.

[rory]

The problem is, though, that until you make your own boundaries, it is impossible to say if you and Alex are really incompatible or if you just cannot appreciate her because you don't take the independence and space that you need. Then again, breaking up is the healthy thing to do if you can't break the pattern of co-dependency while in the relationship.

[MeeraReed]

I don't think it's quite so obvious that you ought to just leave her already...I have no idea what I would do in your place...it's so sad.

Especially since it sounds like Alex has really been trying lately, reading "Opening Up" and meeting your lover. But I sort of wish she were doing more things to gain her own independence and to find herself, rather than putting all her energy into the relationship with you.

Such a tough situation. When monogamous people want more space and freedom, they break up with their partner and date other people. But because we're poly we don't have to do to that...so it's much harder to figure out when / why we SHOULD leave.

Is Alex not giving you enough independence, or do you feel claustrophobic even though Alex gives you a reasonable amount of independence? Is it the dynamics of this relationship that don't work for you, or would you feel smothered in any relationship?

So confusing :(

[beginninglove]

I don't think it's quite so obvious that you ought to just leave her already...I have no idea what I would do in your place...it's so sad.

Especially since it sounds like Alex has really been trying lately, reading "Opening Up" and meeting your lover. But I sort of wish she were doing more things to gain her own independence and to find herself, rather than putting all her energy into the relationship with you.

Such a tough situation. When monogamous people want more space and freedom, they break up with their partner and date other people. But because we're poly we don't have to do to that...so it's much harder to figure out when / why we SHOULD leave.

Is Alex not giving you enough independence, or do you feel claustrophobic even though Alex gives you a reasonable amount of independence? Is it the dynamics of this relationship that don't work for you, or would you feel smothered in any relationship?

So confusing :(

I agree! So confusing. Which is why I have not committed to leaving even when everything in me was saying "Run out the door and save yourself...now!!" The fact that Alex continues to try so hard really does inspire me about our relationship and help me to feel really committed to doing the same. Its just that the way we are trying is so different. For me, I have to continually struggle to ask for the freedom I want and need and be honest about my feelings and experiences with other people (right now, that is K), and also to be willing to examine my impulses to leave when things get hard. For Alex, her struggle is really about letting go and examining her expectations that she should be able to fulfill all my needs and the jealousy that arises when I choose to get my needs met elsewhere. Even though we still have a long way to go, we really have come so much farther than I ever thought possible when we began this journey just 8 short months ago.

One fantastic development is that Alex did go out on a limb and have her own sexual experience at a play party recently. I think it did a world of good for her to have an experience outside of our relationship and see that different experiences are just that...different. I was really proud of her for being willing to try something that stretched her comfort zone just a bit and she ended up really enjoying it and even finding out about a side of herself (an interest in BDSM) that she is potentially interested in exploring more outside of our relationship. For now she's not really actively pursuing that but as opportunities arise I think she will be more and more willing to explore that without me, and I am encouraging her to do so.

I have been asking for more freedom to see K as often as I can, which lately is not much due to a hectic travel schedule. It is hard on Alex when I want to take what little time I have at home and devote some of it to seeing K. But I have been trying to remind myself that I need to ask for what I want and let Alex have whatever reaction she is going to have. I have been able to be patient and supportive as she works through her initial anger and discomfort with my requests, without trying to rush in and fix anything or withdraw my request and then harbor resentment about it (which I did often when I was seeing Sam). She has been able to work through a great deal of jealousy and insecurity this way, which is so reassuring for me to see.

I think what is still coming up a lot for me is dealing with my intensifying feelings for K and just letting them be what they are. I notice myself having impulses that I think are related to a leftover serial monogamy mentality of "wow, i am totally falling for this person so i need to drop everything to be with them!" No pressure is coming from K who, even though this is her first experience with poly, has been incredibly patient and understanding and reassuring that she is totally happy with the way things are and wants to "simply be there for me". Wow. Things are still very new with us and we are still working out our communication style, which right now mostly consists of texting between time spent together, and our visits tend to be very fun and sexual with not a lot of time devoted to processing emotions. Which is great, but sometimes I find myself with questions in my mind that I do not voice to her, or things I want to say that I never seem to find the courage to say. Partially its because its all so new (we've been seeing each other for a little over 2 months now) and I don't want to get too deep too fast, and partially its because it is my tendency to hold back a bit when I'm uncertain. Definitely its clear that we are both really into each other, but we haven't spent a lot of time exploring what that means or what our intentions are with each other.

Managing the NRE without that "tortured" feeling is still a challenge for me. I get surprised at how easy it seems for other people to deal with, and even put up boundaries around it when needed. It seems that this, I am not so good at.

[MeeraReed]

One fantastic development is that Alex did go out on a limb and have her own sexual experience at a play party recently. I think it did a world of good for her to have an experience outside of our relationship and see that different experiences are just that...different. I was really proud of her for being willing to try something that stretched her comfort zone just a bit and she ended up really enjoying it and even finding out about a side of herself (an interest in BDSM) that she is potentially interested in exploring more outside of our relationship. For now she's not really actively pursuing that but as opportunities arise I think she will be more and more willing to explore that without me, and I am encouraging her to do so.


I'm really glad to hear this!

Don't forget that Alex's new interest in BDSM might be something you can explore WITH her, IN your relationship with her, rather than just sending her to seek it elsewhere.

If I had a primary partner, I would want our outside experiences to feed into improving the sexual chemistry between the two of us...especially if there were an initial problem with the sexual connection.

I guess what I mean is, don't get so caught up in K that you forget that Alex might be an extremely sexual person (not just good for cuddling!) underneath the issues and insecurities she may have.

Thanks for the update! Glad to hear things are going well.

[beginninglove]

okay, i am promising myself right now that i am going to post this and then i am getting RIGHT to work and am not going to be distracted for the rest of the day!!

thanks for the comment, MeeraReed. its so great to get feedback here. good to be reminded that Alex is a sexual person too, because she definitely is. in fact, this past weekend i was away at a meditation retreat and got so filled up with appreciation for how attentive and responsive she is to me, so when i got home i made sure we had some sexy time together even though i was exhausted. its not the intensely passionate kind of sexy time that k and i have, but its a different relationship altogether and i get that different is okay and good and even necessary. there is no comparison. things with Alex are pretty great right now.

still struggling with the NRE with k. trying to just sit with it, breathe through it, not indulge my crazy obsessive tendencies. but it is SO HARD. while i was away this weekend i obsessively checked my phone to see if she had texted. i sent her some pictures of the beautiful grounds at the retreat center along with a note about some of the things i was thinking about and was disappointed when her response was sweet but brief. last time i was away at a meditation retreat, we ended up texting a lot on my last day there about a lot of the things i had been thinking and feeling all weekend (its an intense spiritual program). i was disappointed that we didn't do that this time, even though there is a very good reason for this as she is away taking care of her daughter and is very busy i am sure. also, last time i was away i was planning to come straight to her house after i got back, but this time i won't see her until later this week.

i don't know why i am obsessing on this and trying to figure it all out in my head. i think is hard for me that the vast majority of our communication is over text, and that even in person we don't talk about our feelings a lot, because i am left with all these questions. even though her actions say so much (she is so thoughtful and playful with creating fun surprises for me and cooking meals, giving me little gifts, etc), a big part of me wants to hear in words what is on her mind too. i stop myself from asking because i don't want to come off as needy or demanding or too emotional or like i'm rushing things. but i suppose since the feeling is there in me i need to honor it in some way. i just need to find the right way. i go over and over different strategies in my mind, should i back off, just give her space and let things unfold without pushing? should i ask for reassurance? should i just tell her how i feel? should i wait it out, try to learn how to soothe myself, and just see what happens?

ugh, this is the torturous part of the NRE... and the worst part is knowing that i do this to myself. the trick is figuring out how to STOP. you'd think the meditation practice would help, and it does, but as soon as i am not meditating my mind just goes right back to these frustrating circles. :eek:

[beginninglove]

had an amazing night with k last night. the energy between us is just so sexy and sweet and fun and addictive! ahhh the serotonin bath of NRE...

the other day alex asked me if i thought i might be falling in love with k, and i didn't know what to say. what does "falling in love" really mean? it certainly feels that way if you count all the swirling emotions that go along with NRE as "falling in love". but since k and i have only been hanging out for 3 months, can you really justify calling anything that we are feeling now "love"? its maybe a certain type of love, I suppose. But maybe I can't tell whether we are "falling in love" for real until we get to know each other better? all i know is that i love spending time with her, and the sex is mind-blowingly phenomenal!! :D

[MeeraReed]

I wonder if you can "diffuse" the obsessive excitement of NRE by spreading it toward Alex too. Like, if you find yourself checking obsessively for a text from K, could you text Alex to tell her you love her or to send her some random picture or whatever? Maybe that will help.

I also struggle to know what "falling in love" means and how that is different from new-great-sex-energy and from the "I want to be with you and only you forever" feeling that seems to be how most people experience love. I don't trust the former and I don't experience the latter, so...?

How did you respond to Alex's question about your feelings for K? How did she respond to your response? How would Alex feel if you really did fall in love with K?

Sounds like things are going really well. Keep at it.

[beginninglove]

thanks for your good questions and feedback again, MeeraReed. very helpful.

i've been trying to be extra attentive to alex, doing things with her that i know she enjoys. the sex between us has not been going well though, as i am feeling it even less than usual with alex lately. i remember seeing something about "the top 10 lies of polyamory" or something like that at one point and one of the statements was "sex with outside partners does not change my sex life with my primary at all" or something along those lines. so i wonder if this extra big dip in my sex drive with alex is normal since things with K are in such overdrive right now, or if its really a red flag or maybe just something that will come back after things with K even out a bit. sex with alex has never been extraordinary, as i have mentioned before, so maybe this is to be expected. however, sometimes i find myself wanting to pull back even when she just wants to make out, which is something relatively new.

even though i am not clear about my answer to the "what is love?" question and whether or not i want to use that term to define what i am feeling for K, its pretty clear to me that the situation with k is not and never will be a situation where she would supplant my primary partnership with alex. she is such an adventurous soul with a tremendous history of being a "wild child" which makes for great stories and excitement but also makes me appreciate the stability and dependability that alex brings as a primary partner with whom i share a mortgage and a car payment, etc.

[nycindie]

sex with alex has never been extraordinary...
Why not?

[beginninglove]

Why not?

good question. i'm going to be brutally honest about this. there are a few reasons.

1) in the beginning it was better, but we quickly fell into more of a comfortable place with each other that was more secure and less sexy. i think this is somewhat typical in long term relationships and there is a reason there is that stereotype about "lesbian bed death".

2) she has a history of sexual trauma that makes her less open to certain types of sexual acts and experiences. there are a lot of rules around what we can and can't do sexually that feel limiting to my own sexual expression (this is one of the main reasons she was open to poly) and she gets triggered if i'm too sexually aggressive (which i often enjoy being and have to really watch myself during sex with her, especially if i've had a glass of wine)

3) she is a big person and is much larger than me physically, almost twice my body size. this limits the positions we can be in and also limits her physical stamina quite a bit. both partners i have chosen to have sex with since we opened up our relationship have incidentally been very physically fit people and it has really made for a completely different quality (and quantity!) of sexual activity. i do find alex physically attractive, but our sex is very limited by her size and fitness level.

4) this one is harder to articulate, but the neediness i experience from her and the high levels of emotionality seem to make me less interested in sex with her. this may be loosely related to #1, where maybe its just typical that higher levels of emotional intimacy sometimes don't provide enough space for the sexual energy to breathe.

i would love to read any and all feedback on this stuff!!

[MeeraReed]

I've been trying to think of any feedback to offer, and I really don't have much. This is a tough situation.

1) My only experience with "lesbian bed death" comes from a Queer as Folk episode where the lesbian couple revamped their sex life by having a hot threesome with an ex. I guess that won't work here :)

More seriously, I do have experience with (hetero) sexual activity declining as the relationship progressed. It turned out to be a sign that there were serious problems between us (or rather, problems for him that he wouldn't tell me about). I had no idea at the time, and kept trying to do things to vamp up our sex life--the last resort of which was for us to try seeing other people to gain more experience. (Worked for me, didn't work for him, but again, he didn't tell me what was bothering him. The end result was the worst break-up I have ever gone through. The post-end result was my realization that we had never been sexually compatible to begin with).

That's just my experience. I'm not sure what would apply here, except maybe the lesson that problems with sexual connection have deeper roots and are much harder to solve than one would think.

2) Alex's history of sexual trauma is a BIG issue, I think. Any reason why you didn't mention it sooner? It seems like an important factor from her point of view.

She can't meet all your sexual needs because of her triggers, so she gave you permission to seek sexual fulfillment elsewhere. But since then she's had to struggle with knowing you must have better sex with people other than her. I can see how hard that must be.

On the other hand: is she actively getting treatment for her trauma? Has she made any progress? What is the extent of her trauma--long-term childhood abuse, an isolated incident in adulthood, etc? It matters.

It does sound like it's remarkably easy to trigger her. All you have to do is drink a glass of wine and act like a normal, amorous partner? And that's too aggressive for her?

I don't have personal experience with sexual abuse/trauma. But I do know how YOU feel--guilty for the way you express sexual feelings, rejected every time you touch her too "aggressively," and FRUSTRATED.

Also, it seems to me like Alex must have been at least partly drawn to you because of you being sexually aggressive--I mean it seems like she must be a little attracted to that. Or else why would she be with you? Is there any way for her to make progress in therapy with the end result of becoming more comfortable with more passionate sex?

(My college boyfriend would flinch away and accuse me of being too "aggressive" if I merely put my tongue in his mouth. He claimed to have experienced a traumatic childhood, but wouldn't talk about it or seek treatment. I would be more sympathetic to him if he had not been an emotionally abuse liar. It took me years to become comfortable with my own sexuality because I felt like such a pervert when I was with him).

And, I'm a little confused by something you mentioned earlier about you being the one with a dysfunctional history, which made you feel like the "damaged" one while Alex was the stable one. (Yes? Am I remembering that right?) So you felt guilty for being poly because you feared maybe you were just dysfunctional with relationships?

But how does that fit with Alex being the one with a history of sexual trauma? Isn't she the one with more emotional issues in that sense? I guess I'm assuming the trauma is from her childhood; maybe it's not.

I don't know what to say, except that it must be really painful for Alex to know she can't fulfill you sexually because of something that already deeply impacted her life in a horrible way.

3) Ah. She's heavy. Honestly, I could guess that from reading between the lines.

I dated an overweight man once. I was WILDLY attracted to him despite the weight. But yeah, what you can do in bed is really limited. And he was really insecure about his body. So I hear you.

A lot of sexual abuse survivors become overweight as a subconscious way to hide themselves and their bodies. Did that happen here? Again, is she pursuing treatment for the trauma?

So Alex probably hates her body, feels physically unwell a lot because of her weight, and has to accept the fact that you have fantastic sex with other, much thinner women? That's a lot to deal with.

(And I don't think you "incidentally" chose physically fit women for your new partners. Nothing wrong with it, but there it is.)

4) Neediness. Yeah, this is where I really sympathize with you. I am also turned off by neediness.

Possibly, however, I might be turned off by normal emotions that I interpret as neediness, when in fact I'm the one with the problem. I haven't figured that out yet.

Is Alex excessively needy, or are her feelings normal but YOU have a hard time with feelings?

She does sound needy in an unhealthy way, but I can also see how someone in her position would feel that way.

I totally understand how sex can be WAY more fun when there aren't desperate & deep feelings involved. It's such a relief to be able to focus on the physical, to feel friendship & affection for a partner without the feeling that you and you alone are responsible for their happiness.

I don't have any good advice here. Except this: it is a BIG problem that you are flinching away from her, not wanting to make out, etc.

I think this goes back to your original question, the reason you started this thread. You wanted to know if it was okay to be so subsumed in NRE that you were losing interest in your primary partner.

I think the answer is no. Polyamory is supposed to be about knowing that having feelings for someone else does NOT diminish your feelings for your other partner(s).

I mean, I think it's okay to get caught up in NRE for a little while. But then it should blossom into a renewal of feelings for your primary.

When I sought (and found) better sex with men other than my boyfriend, my feelings for my boyfriend skyrocketed. Both emotionally (because he gave me permission to date others) and physically (because the good sex I was having with others gave me FANTASTIC ideas for things I wanted to try with him).

And the good sex, as well as the different type of emotions I had with others, took the pressure off my boyfriend to meet all my needs. Being with him was no longer frustrating because I could appreciate him more, instead of longing for things he wasn't comfortable doing with me.

As a caveat, the situation totally did not work for my (ex) boyfriend, so I can't claim that my perspective is a success story. But I think it would have worked if he'd been genuinely poly.

So I feel like that's what's missing in your story here: the feeling that seeing others should be HELPING your relationship with Alex.

I mean, I think you are progressing toward that point, but are not there yet.

[beginninglove]

Thanks so much for all the good questions, MeeraReed. The day after you posted that I wrote out this long, thoughtful response to each part of your questions and then of course something happened and the site asked me to log in a bunch of times and i lost the whole thing. i was so frustrated i couldn't even visit the site for awhile. well, AND i've been very busy.

alex and i are taking some space and i am subletting a friend's apartment for the month of april. taking this space has felt AMAZING. i feel so...myself. i have been spending time with both alex and K also (no sex with alex and almost nothing BUT sex with K) so i've been busier than usual, given that the logistics of not staying home sometimes make my life feel a little more complicated, but i have also felt free, liberated, true to myself. i love the quiet time. i have decided i am a true introvert in many ways.

i have been taking things day by day, really truly practicing being in the moment and not trying to figure anything out or make any big proclamations about what i am going to do with the rest of my life (relationship-wise). i ahve been questioning everything, all the things i have taken for granted about what my life would look like or "should" look like. the notion of marriage, the ideal of a life-long partner (even in the context of poly), the assumption that someday i will have a kid of my own.

i've been reading a book called "sex at dawn" that argues that we have seriously distorted evolutionary history to support our current narrative of human sexuality where pair-bonding, monogamy, and the nuclear family are "natural" and even "instinctive". the authors argue that we are actually more naturally a communal, sharing social species where it is more adaptive to share everything: resources, sexual partners, child-raising duties, etc. i was kind of bored by the historical review of all the evidence that supports this argument, mainly because i already bought it from the beginning. nothing shocking there. it makes a lot of sense, and i've been thinking a lot more about this in terms of helping my friends raise their babies instead of having my own.

sex with k just keeps getting better and better. my practice now is to be a good communicator and keep things clear. just take things day by day. it is still hard for me to find the line between "processing" or saying too much and not saying enough.

sam actually called me this week (she was my most recent ex-lover who moved cross-country for a in-town, monogamous relationship with her LDR) and told me that things weren't working out with her relationship, and if she came to visit, could we hook up? i said no, i am currently maxed out in that department. it feels good to be in touch with what i want and be able to assert my boundaries with no guilt or afterthought.

[beginninglove]

feeling sad tonight. even though i am so grateful for this poly framework, this way of thinking about myself that is not pathologizing, sometimes i wonder why i can't just be more like other people who seem to have found THAT person, the ONE that makes them sure about how they want to spend their lives. even if they are poly. what is wrong with me that i can't just give myself that, or give myself to other people like that?

i am constantly running away. alex loves me so much, she is practically bursting with it and has supported me through so much that has been so hard for her, most of the time all she wants is just to spend time with me. but i recoil from her, her kiss, her touch. i enjoy spending time with her but only for contained periods of time. it mostly feels like i am taking care of her.

and then there is K, where the NRE is just bubbling over. i am constantly distracted by thoughts of her, the sex is incredible, i love the way she smells, tastes, feels. and i also keep thinking about all the reasons it wouldn't be okay to fall in love with her. well, maybe falling in love with her would be okay but i can't see myself in a relationship with her. she's got such a wild past that she is still recovering from. her life is so different from mine, sort of like lovers from different sides of the tracks.

alex and i are pretty clearly from the same side of the tracks in many ways. its why our relationship "makes sense". our families, friends, shared interests, all make perfect sense. so why do i want to pull away when she kisses me? why do i not like the way her mouth tastes anymore? am i supposed to try harder, or stop trying??

i have already asked these questions many times here on this blog. you all gave me permission to stop trying, and its was a huge relief to read that. maybe what i need to do is to tell alex to stop trying. that scares me, and that probably means its because i am on to something.

[MeeraReed]

I meant to say earlier, I was glad to hear you turned down Sam's offer of hooking up. Seems like the right decision.

As for the other stuff...

Your questions always resonate with me...because I don't know the answers either. :(

I too struggle with the feeling that other people are able to be with someone, to feel purely happy and to know that they want to spend their life with that person...and moreover, that poly people can have that feeling for more than one person.

But I don't experience that feeling. I've figured out that I'm happiest, most in tune with myself, most sure of myself, most content with my life, and most clear about my future path, when I'm single.

I don't want to be celibate or totally alone, and I don't want to not care about other people and their feelings, so I'm slowing figuring out alternative forms of dating/sex/friendships that work for me.

Unlike you, I'm not living with a partner who loves me desperately, so I never had to make the choice to give that up.

Like you, I spent a long time in a situation where I was involved with two people of totally contrasting personality & relationship types. One was a boyfriend I cared deeply for, considered my best friend, and would have moved mountains before hurting. We had a million things in common, including professional and social spheres. But we also had poor sexual chemistry, and he had his own sexual issues which I thought he needed to explore on his own.

The other guy was just pure sexual chemistry, not at all "relationship material," hardly had anything in common with me. He made me feel amazing and I liked him immensely. He was also a complete moron who was stoned a lot.:rolleyes:

Neither guy was right for me, but my instinct to be single was.

[Truebrooke]

I've been following this thread, and think that BL is doing some brave processing. I left a "good" relationship last year because I felt I needed time to "do my own thing" and explore new loves, relationships, sex partners or whatever. I had been feeling stiffled in the relationship ( with Adam) and though I think we both could have the capacity (and perhaps now do) to work at a poly relationship, last year neither of us was up to it. It was painful for sure to make that choice, but I have learnt and grown imensly because of it. Of course a different sort of learning would have insued if I'd stayed. Listening to how I felt, and how often that "I feel trapped, I'm scared, I need ________" came up was important. Pay attention to how you FEEL with different people. Do you feel free-er, more alive? more loving?Do they facilitate you loving yourself? hmm, that is some super interesting feedback. i definitely have noticed that my body was more energized when i was convinced i would break up with her, and now i feel more anxious/tired. but i have been attributing it to just the hard work that comes with long-term relationships, thinking that we/i will come out on the other side of this eventually.


I think it's really important that you noticed when your body felt energized. This is crutial!! Our brain/intelect has been overemphasized in our current culture, and I believe our bodies have a lot of wisdom to offer us if we'd only listed. I've been doing a lot of learning about this in my own life, including learning about specific female body issues connected to emotional responses and patterns. (check out the book "Women's bodies, Women's wisdom by Cristiane Northrup)

BL, you mentioned about sliding into depression. I spent many months with Adam being emotionally unhealthy, and yet fearing that I couldn't leave him because he was my support. I've been blessed to find loving people outside of that, and find myself much healthier in all ways as I learn to listen to my body, not feel guilty about what I want/need (and learning how to non-accusingly state this. You're statement sliding under a blanket....love should make you unfold and feel free. Not like you need to crumple and hide. Sometime we tell ourselves a relationship is loving just because that fits with the story we've told ourselves (and our circle of "friends"). Keeping up with a pre-scribed story when it goes against what you *know* somewhere in your body is, in my opinion, dangerous, and unhealthy.
I'm not saying I know what you should do in your circusmstance....just that I applaud your desire to be honest. Keep listening to your body. Do small things to let your body know you are listening, a gentle bath, and soothing words. Sometimes I find it helpful to acknowldege part of my body/feelings as if they were another person....."breast, I hear that you have an abnormality, I'm interested in if there's something you'd like to bring to my attention through this...." or when you feel trapped with Alex "body, I hear your trapped feeling....thank you for bringing this up...I'm not sure how to best act as a result of this feeling, but know that I hear you and want you to keep informing me...."
here's the other wrench in my confidence as of late: in the past month, both my mother and sister have been diagnosed with breast cancer. i went for a mammogram to get myself checked out, and as a result of microcalcifications they found they are asking me to come back for a biopsy. i am not terrified and i know i will be okay no matter what, but it has brought home how nice it is to have someone who i know cares, knows my family and cares about them too, and who i know will support me through whatever i end up needing to go through. that's not to say i don't have other people in my life who will support me, because i do. it just has given me another perspective to think about. i don't want to stay with alex out of fear of being alone, but how does one weigh the pros and cons without thinking about these things?

[beginninglove]

thank you truebrooke for your response and your insight. i agree that the body is such an important source of information and guidance. i am practicing listening to it, and i notice that sometimes i can confuse myself by thinking about what my body is telling me to do especially when it come to NRE. of course my body feels relaxed and excited around K, and tense and anxious around alex (often), because of the circumstances. how do i distinguish between what my body wants to avoid (such as difficult conversations, facing alex's pain and insecurity) and what i "should" do despite that desire to avoid? and when all my body wants to do is bathe in the NRE with K, how do i override those bodily impulses to say "actually what i probably need right now is alone time"?

[beginninglove]

so last night was one of the worst nights of my entire life. i will make the recap brief. basically, i spent a lot of energy trying to make alex's birthday fun for her by planning a party, inviting all of our friends, decorating, getting food, etc. i had a lot of anxiety because we had had a difficult night the night before, and i really did NOT want to mess up her birthday. oh man. then, for some still unknown to me reason, i handed my phone to her to hold for me. i do not know why i did this! later everyone was looking all over for her, and it turned out she had been in the bathroom for a very long time, reading all of my texts. she did this with my email once before, so i should have known better, but really when it comes down to it i have nothing to hide. the problem is, from her insecure, panicked perspective she read into every conversation i had with K and other friends and made it mean that i had been lying to her about something. i am still not sure what in those texts made her think i was lying to her about something because she was never specific and i think i have been really honest (while sparing her the "gory" details, at her explicit request). she mentioned that fact that i called K "love" in a few of my texts (as in, "goodnight love") and a joke i had made to a friend about strapping it on for a guy, but its hard for me to believe she was that mad about those two things.

anyway, she came out of the bathroom livid. she took me outside and proceeded to yell at and berate me. called me a piece of shit and a horrible, evil person. she told me she hates me and its over. i went to turn away and she grabbed me hard by the collar and spun me around to face her. it was horrible. all of our friends were still inside. i walked away in the rain, without my coat or my wallet and got as far as i could. i stood in a doorway blocks away until my best friend came and got me. a friend later told me that alex went back into the party and talked to some folks about what had happened. then everyone dispersed.

talk about the most melodramatic ending possible.

i know this is my fault. i basically set it up to end this way. something had to give because i was too afraid to make the call myself, in a mature and proactive way. i was too scared of feeling the loss, too scared of alex's pain. i wanted her to end it but i didn't know what i would have to do to get her to. its such a chickenshit passive way to go about things but it is what happened. i guess it was my subconscious that knew that by giving her my phone i was giving myself an out. nothing in my conscious mind registered that. nothing in my phone was directly incriminating and i didn't feel like i had anything to hide. but it didn't matter. she reacted to what she made those texts mean in her mind, and she reacted the way she needed to react in order to be able to let me go.

ultimately i am grateful to her, even as i acknowledge that she invaded my privacy and that was wrong. i am glad she is taking some power back and that maybe now we can both truly start moving on.

[NovemberRain]

awwwww, sweetie, I'm so sorry for all your drama. Sounds like pretty normal, 30something lesbian life, to me. (been there, done that, got the scars) I'm so glad a friend did come to get you.

You sound really calm. Are you able to stay in friend's apartment, or will you have to be moving out somewhere this weekend?

Even though it wasn't the way your conscious mind wanted it, sounds like you're glad the decision is done.

Be prepared, she may change her mind. Maybe not, but it's been known to happen. I've thrown a lot of people out, and changed my mind.

{{hugs}}

[MeeraReed]

Oh, so sorry to hear this. Wish I'd seen it sooner.

No, you're wrong, this isn't your fault at all. You've still got a lot of guilt going on.

I don't think that you subconsciously handed her the phone because you knew that would spark the end. That doesn't make sense. I don't think you were hiding anything in the text messages that you knew would provoke Alex to leave.

I do think you wanted Alex to end it for you, and that you've wanted that for a long time. But I think you were also trying really hard to make things work with her. You were the one who was being really patient with HER.

My college boyfriend wanted to get me to break up with him--and believe me, he treated me like shit to bring that about. There was no trying, no unconscious sabotage with him.

I think Alex is the one with the subconsciously unhealthy behavior here. Why did she read your texts on a day that you were trying to make special for her? Why did she extrapolate imaginary lies from texts that you weren't even trying to hide from her? Why did she pick a public fight in a way that humiliated you? Why did she say cruel things to you?

She's the one with the problems here.

So please stop beating yourself up.

In a less negative slant, Alex herself, in her own heart, may have known the relationship was over for quite some time, and she was looking for an excuse to end things on her own terms.

Two bits of advice:

1) Things will be okay. It may take a while, but really, trulyou will someday be okay again.

2) Don't throw yourself more into intense feelings for K because of this. Give yourself some personal space to deal with this. Take it slow with K.

Keep us posted.

[beginninglove]

so its been quite a while (almost 3 months!) since my last dramatic post. needless to say, my life has been in varied states of chaos since then, which contributed to me not posting here. but i also think i didn't know what/how much to write, and i have felt really all over the place with my feelings.

in the last 3 months, i have:
- moved out of mine and alex's house
- got my own apartment
- adopted two kittens
- fallen in deeper with K

i have also been all over the map in terms of how i have been coping with mine and alex's breakup, from feeling relieved and excited about my future, to feeling desperately like something must be deeply wrong with me for me to want to go smashing up my life like that. i have gone through periods of missing her painfully, wondering if i took her for granted. i also went back and read my posts here and in my private journal, and am reminding myself time and again how long i struggled with this decision and suffered in ambivalence and feeling stagnant and depressed.

on the other hand, having my own place has felt liberating. while i am still adjusting to the feeling of being alone, when i can relax into it i find that it suits me wonderfully. i love the down time, i love my feisty new kittens, i love making the place my own. K has been incredibly supportive of what i have been going through and very understanding of my moodiness. as is to be expected, the shift in my relationship with alex shifted my relationship with K as well. i have found myself confiding more in K, being more emotionally vulnerable with her. the sex is still phenomenal (!!) but we are more connected in other ways now too. its still not easy to get K to talk about her feelings, and i'm trying to just take the whole thing slow while getting through this breakup.

one of the unexpectedly hard things about this breakup with alex is losing most of "our" friends. even though i am still very connected to the friends that were/have always been "mine", alex got "our" friends in the breakup. its not even that i want those friends as "mine" because really that group was more her people than mine anyway, but i suppose what bothers me is how smoothly it all seemed to sort out, how everyone just sort of went that way and no one has checked in with me about it. granted, i haven't reached out either so i can't say i tried, but literally only one person from "our" group of friends has tried to contact me to see how i am doing through all of this. i guess it just makes me a little sad, and a little more aware of how precious close friends are, and how often the folks you share holiday barbecues and new year's eve parties with really are just acquaintances when it comes down to it.

i'm glad to be back here, reading everyone's stories and feeling a little less alone. :)

[beginninglove]

just spent a good few hours with alex, reconnecting and talking finances and figuring out how we are going to make this separation work logistically. i put two and two together and figured out that she is (finally) starting a sexual relationship with someone new. when she and i first started exploring poly, she was convinced that she was definitely mono and had no interest in seeing other people. now that she has started to experience the high of NRE, she seems to have more understanding about my perspective and even some compassion for some of the dumb things i did in the heat of NRE with sam and k. i also got to feel a little bit of jealousy, which is very good medicine for me. it felt helpful to remember how much she was willing to stretch for me and sit with her difficult emotions, even when she didn't always behave well.

the hard part of this breakup is that i still love her. i just was so unhappy in that relationship for so long that when i wonder if i made the right decision, i also wonder how i could have made any other choice? i don't see that anything would have changed for the better if i had stayed. i wanted to be freer to set my own boundaries with my other lovers and alex needed to feel control over the situation.

i feel a bit worried about this thing with k. i am so enamored with her, the NRE is still very strong 7 months into it but the communication is somewhat weak. i suppose i have been avoiding processing with her because the processing with alex has been so intense for so long. but K has dropped hints here and there about wanting me "all to herself" and i have kind of laughed it off until now. i have been so emotionally drained by the breakup with alex and at the same time so fulfilled by K sexually (and she's also been very supportive and comforting) that i haven't given seeing anyone else a second thought. even the idea sounds exhausting to me at this point.

BUT i'm going to the lesbian mecca in the woods next month for two weeks, by myself without alex and without K, but with thousands of other women there looking to connect and have fun. K knows i am going of course, but we have not talked about agreements at all. i'm dreading broaching the topic, which i know is irresponsible and perhaps lazy of me, because isn't this poly thing all about the processing???? :confused:

i have to figure out a way to talk to k about this. how do i say, "look, i love our sex life and i know you want me all to yourself, but i'm going to the woods for two weeks with a bunch of other dykes and i can't make you any promises" in a way that feels respectful and still communicates to her how into her i am?

[MeeraReed]

Thanks for the update, glad you are doing okay.

If it makes you feel better, in a similar situation, the friends who dropped contact with me had been my friends first--I didn't even know they were just his until they didn't bother to check in with me. One of them was one of my best friends ever, and I miss her terribly.

I'm glad your ex is dating again. But I don't think she was fair to you when she ended things--but somehow monogamous people seem to have to convince themselves that they hate their old partner before they can allow themselves the possibility of loving someone new. :(

Best of luck with everything. You should probably talk to K a little about her feelings about your lesbians-in-the-woods venture. Can't hurt to ask her how she feels.

[beginninglove]

so, its been awhile since i have posted here. things have been very hectic with all the adjustments to my new life, and i have travelling quite a bit. alex and i are on good terms but she doesn't really want to have much contact with me. that has been really difficult to adjust to, as i miss her terribly, just her presence in my life. she went through a surgery recently and i found it very challenging to not be able to be there for her in the way i wanted to be, because she didn't want to see me and deal with all the emotions that would bring up. i get it, she needs time and space to heal, and i am the one that ended things. but it is still very hard.

things with k keep progressing, despite the fact that i have a lot of judgments about the situation because in some ways she and i are so different. i am trying to just let go of those judgments and allow myself to be present and enjoy the wonderful times that we spend together and the amazing sex we are having (and keeps getting better!) after 9 months of dating. she is having a hard time with the poly thing though. she says doesn't want to put limitations on me and she understands that i am just getting out of a difficult long-term relationship, but she also has negative reactions when i bring up the idea of me potentially having sex with someone else. i had a brief fling with someone on a trip recently, and she reacted pretty well, basically taking a deep breath and telling me it was hard to hear but she was glad i was being open and honest with her. really for me at this point its not even about having sex with other people, its more the principle of making sure hse understand that ulitmately its my choice and i don't want to be in a serious relationship right now, let alone a mono one. the sex wth her is so good that i find myself quite satiated and not looking for that with other people. but i still want to have flirtatious connections, be able to make out with people i'm attracted to and make my own decisions about my boundaries. i know that she may struggle with jealousy and that those feelings are her own. i'm trying not to take on any guilt about that or about who i am, because i know i have that habit from past relationships.