Happiness-- what is it?

[Minxxa]

So this is going to sound a bit silly, but I am actually serious about the question. I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about my life and myself and the way I go about things that seem to be based (at least partially) on how I was raised.

My life has been fairly chaotic, fairly unstable (for the most part) and fairly insecure. From a young age we moved a lot, I was the new kid in school on a yearly/biyearly basis and my mother's relationship with my dad and stepdad(s) were problematic. My mom was very loving, so I had a securely bonded relationship with her, but the rest of my life was crazy.

We sometimes moved with a day's notice, I had issues making new friends (between having to start over so much and being very shy and introverted), I could never really get attached to too much because it might be gone at any second. This past year I moved to the house I'm in now, which was the 40th move in my 40 years. :eek:

What I'm seeing lately is that I have created this part of me that believes (believed) that if I could just improve myself enough, become a good enough person, be a good enough partner-- that I'd somehow find happiness and security and safety. I'm starting to try and see that behavior and knock it off because honestly I'm just so tired of trying to fix myself and things and make things work. :rolleyes:

But... in doing this thinking I have been thinking about what I want in life, what I need-- what is realistic-- and I realized that I don't even really know what "happiness" looks like. What is it really? Maybe there really is no such thing. Maybe there are just happy moments, sad moments, angry moments, fearful moments-- you know, life?

A lot of the shit I read talks about mindfulness-- which I think is awesome but I suck at it. But trying to get to some imaginary future where everything is smooth is not realistic, and having that goal for so long I think has kept me from accepting how things are right now.

Things right now might not be perfect. I have sad moments, I have angry moments, but there are also happy moments. Maybe that's all I can really ask for.

Thoughts?

[River]

In the entire history of human lives no one has ever been happy in the future or in the past. All happiness has occurred in the present.

Still, it is possible to cultivate future happiness. That is, one can live one's present moments in such a way as to increase one's happiness in "future" moments (which will be present moments when they are happening).

But first, what is happiness? I think happiness is pleasure. That is, the state of heightened (or at least acceptable) well-being which people call "happy" is a pleasurable state. A state of pleasure. Joy is also pleasure. Ecstasy and bliss are pleasure. Unhappiness is displeasure--which is often simply insufficient pleasure.

Pleasure is a bodily experience, so if you want more pleasure, and thus more happiness, take really good care of your/the body. Nurture it with good nutrition, excercise regularly, don't over-consume caffein or alcohol (or other drugs). Stretch regularly or do yoga.... And yes, practice mindfulness of the body. Notice in a mindful way (Google it if you're clueless, folks) what sensations are present, including emotional sensations -- which are all bodily sensations. And notice the associated thoughts, mindfully. In due time the body itself will teach you how to be more and more happy in the present--if you commit to that as a journey and practice. (One can no more learn this without commitment than one could learn Olympic level diving or ice scating without commitment and practice.)

Chronic unhappiness, like enduring happiness, is learned activity supported by a skill set (or unskillfulness). Skills are developed with practice.

Notice that some parts of your body are "happy" while others are not, sometimes. Some parts are contracted and tight; others are loose and open and ... well, happy (pleasurable). Notice that the tight and unhappy places are attempting to deliver messages to your conscious self/mind. Ask these places, as you would ask a dear friend whom you love and to whom you are compassionate, "Darling, why so unhappy?" and be prepared to listen. And be prepared to take much time to learn what your whole body is trying to say to you about how to be happier.

[River]

A lot of the shit I read talks about mindfulness-- which I think is awesome but I suck at it. But trying to get to some imaginary future where everything is smooth is not realistic, and having that goal for so long I think has kept me from accepting how things are right now.

Things right now might not be perfect. I have sad moments, I have angry moments, but there are also happy moments. Maybe that's all I can really ask for.


Every moment of mindfulness practice makes one better at it. When one thinks "I suck at it" one is probably simply judging one's self for failure to become an Olympic competitor after five minutes of practice. One can then helpfully--but kindly--laugh at one's silly arrogance, and forgive oneself for it--, or, failing such forgiveness laugh at one's brutal internalized Drill Sergeant.

Sad and angry (etc.) moments come and go, but it is possible to welcome these within a growing internal field of happiness. And as this happens the sad and angry (lonely and shame-filled..., etc.) energies are transformed. They blow over more quickly in the welcoming of more and more everchanging moments. We get unstuck. Old patterns break up and dissolve, revealing ever new experiences and awarenesses.

[River]

Since ancient times myriad philosophers, psychologists and spiritual teachers/guides have
warned against the notion that happiness is pleasure, and most of them have good points, but they aren't arguing against what I'm arguing for. They generally argue along lines which abstract from bodily sensation in the present. So they'll say "Seeking after pleasure won't make one happy". This has a valid truth in it. One seeks happiness because one has not got it, and so long as one is seeking one is sort of "elsewhere," and thus not present and thus not happy (because all happiness is in the present). They will also say that one can, say, have lots of passionate sex and eat really delicious foods, etc., and still be quite unhappy. This can be due to an addictive kind of attachment to these pleasures which transform pleasure into displeasure. Dope fiends are rarely happy for long!

A basically happy person doesn't depend on a certain defined and narrow set of experiences in order to have the pleasure of enduring happiness. Rather, the basically happy person takes pleasure wherever it is available, which it usually is -- provided the skills of--and commitment to--happiness are present.

Crucially, the basically happy person has generally learned how not to make him/her
-self unhappy, and chosen to do so with commitment and gentle determination. This is done by making a study of one's habits of making one's self unhappy. When we see (and eventually see through) our happiness-killing habits, without identifying with these, they naturally fall away all on their own.

When we treat ourselves with kindness, compassion, friendliness, tenderness, self-loving..., we're always with a dear friend who provides us with what we really need. And from this place of happiness we have so much more to give to others, which arises naturally from this state.

===

For a convincing description of happiness as pleasure, see:

http://www.amazon.com/Pleasure-Zone-Resist-Feelings-Happy/dp/1573241504

[opalescent]

A warm puppy.

Seriously, some of the best times in my life have centered on my dogs. Probably because dogs are almost always in the now.

I'm also trying to be more mindful and present. I find this almost impossible. I take comfort in the fact that the Buddha and other spiritual geniuses also found this extremely hard.

[River]

I'm also trying to be more mindful and present. I find this almost impossible. I take comfort in the fact that the Buddha and other spiritual geniuses also found this extremely hard.


Is it extremely hard (difficult)?

I'd say Yes and No. (How Zen is that?!)

It is extremely difficult to be in mindfulness about everything all of the time.
Yet it is very easy to be aware of some things pretty continuously. Example: breathing. One can be aware of one's breathing without losing track of one's awareness of breathing fairly readily, especially with a little practice. Even when thoughts arise in sitting meditation on mindfulness on breathing, one can simply notice that this is so and still maintain awareness of breathing.

The hard part is often treating our arising thoughts, habits of perception and reaction, etc., with metta (lovingkindness), which is a part of mindfulness practice as many teach it. Some will insist that the metta part is absolutely crucial. And that's difficult to practice ... usually because most of us are really pretty hard on ourselves--which is to say, unkind toward ourselves. We are habitually harsh on ourselves. (And some of the harshest toward themselves will deny this completely!, saying they're not yet hard enough on themselves!)

Early on, I thought of mindfulness practice as a practice of neutral noticing of the arising sensations, thoughts, habits, etc. But some of the best teachers (I'll name them if asked) insist that we bring metta to ourselves in our mindfulness practices, rather than neutrality -- probably because they know and understand their audience--, a bunch of neurotics!:D:p:eek:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness




.

[AnnabelMore]

I think the key to finding happiness is becoming a happy person. Consider Anne Frank, who was able to find joy in life while hiding from the Nazis. Consider rich people who hate their lives. You can be joyful or sorrowful no matter what your circumstances are, so it's not about finding the right relationship or the right house or the right job. Happiness isn't a goal that you reach when you finally hit the jackpot, because any shiny new thing will lose its sheen in time. Happiness has to be a quality you carry with you and a way you live your life.

So, how to become a happy person? Well, I could give you lots of self-help type advice about journaling, yoga, etcetc, but I'm not really an expert on any of that stuff and I'm sure you could find out more about it from others.

I think that knowing yourself is of great importance to this whole question. Once you know enough about yourself to know what makes you sing and what doesn't, you can figure out how to build fulfillment into your life. Working on challenging and fulfilling things will absorb you and grow you and show you where your joy lies. You'll find yourself shedding the things that don't enhance your life because you simply need to make room for the positive stuff you've brought in. Example, if you take up woodworking as a hobby and fall in love with it you may find you no longer have time for soap operas, even if you once thought watching soaps made you happy... if you're actively working towards enriching yourself the best activities will float to the top and the others will sink.

Ultimately, some people just have a baseline. They're naturally optimistic or naturally cantankerous and might not ever change. But a naturally optimistic person can live a surprisingly unhappy life even though they have a more "happy" outlook if they don't assess their life realistically and find ways to be challenged and productive. And a naturally cantankerous person can have a surprisingly fulfilling and satisfying life if they work on things they love, even if they may not seem like they're "happy" most of the time to the casual observer.

That's my take on it.

[dingedheart]

some of your early story has some similarities to my wife's history. During our couples therapy sessions it was suggested that the early chaos had become such a pattern that it became the norm ....or baseline. Calm and smooth feels funny ...unnatural...boring, etc... At the time they were going to work on that in private....we never had anymore joint sessions so I don't know the out come of that work.

The different emotional sides of these moments provide the contrast and a compass direction ....move toward happiness.

Do the choices you make have a high probability for happiness. That's all you can do.

My sister likes being the victim...or something ...she seems to always make the worst possible choice or decision....I can't tell how many times I've ask "what were you thinking" actually I think in most cases I added a " fuck" in there as well ... but we're a pretty direct family.

Good luck I hope you find what you need to be happy. D

[Minxxa]

Interesting. It's not like I find calm boring, I actually LIKE calm, but I don't trust it. :eek:

I think more what I want in my life is just calm and contentment in general life stuff. The rest-- the happy and sad and angry moments are always going to be there, but I'd like the underlying part of my life to be content.

I really do know that a lot of that is up to me-- in that I need to be content with MYSELF first. And I never have had that. I've faked it a lot-- but it never translated into ACTUAL contentment so it would always fall apart at some point.

So I guess that's where my efforts need to be for now...

[dingedheart]

So when things are goes smooth are you looking over your head to see when the anvil will drop? The universe will always provide you with the anvil...that your looking for.

I'm curious ...how did you fake contentment?

[Minxxa]

Maybe in a way I just can't relax with calm because the anvil will drop, it will drop soon and it will hurt.

Don't get too used to this new school, because tomorrow we might be moving to another city and you'll have to start over.

Don't trust this group of girl friends because tomorrow you might come to school and they will have decided you are no longer welcome and tell everybody to not talk to you.

Don't get too comfy with your family because maybe your husband will stop participating in your life and then tell you it's all your fault he pulled away and you should have done something about it. And you were the worst sex he'd ever had.

Calm periods in my life have been very short and usually followed by an event like the ones listed above (all of which happened, some of them multiple times).

Faking contentment was doing a lot of self-work and thinking that I was "fixing" myself because I didn't like who I was and didn't think anybody else would either. True contentment has a lot more to do with accepting yourself, as is, even as you seek to be the best self you are.

[SNeacail]

I did a lot of thinking about this topic last year when everything was falling apart. I wasn't happy and part of that was that everything I was doing was an obligation, something I should be doing, etc. ie. Housework, my job, kids activities, my husband's events, etc. There was nothing that I was doing on a regular basis that was just for me. I also looked around and realized that I really didn't have any close friends, because all the people I called friends were people my husband was involved with through church or his activities. As soon as I made a conscious effort to "fix" this, my happiness level started to rise.

I joined a group where I can put to use some of my favorite hobbies and have my efforts appreciated. Huge boost to the self confidence and ego :). I have also realized that I NEED something to look and work forward to. If life is just trudging along, I get quite morose, but now I have a weekly dinner/movie/sewing meeting with new friends to look forward to as well as events to prepare for every couple months and I actually feel happy.

I still have my emotional break downs and I will never be in an extended state of calm, as my husband thinks is necessary, but I am happy, happier than I have been in many years.

[dingedheart]

how about replacing the anvil with a pillow....if you get hit hard enough with a good down pillow it can hurt ...but nothing you can't recover from.

In all those example you listed it seemed you had no control ....acted upon by an outside source. Maybe look there ....see if that helps

[Minxxa]

In all those example you listed it seemed you had no control ....acted upon by an outside source. Maybe look there ....see if that helps

Yes, I didn't have any control over those, as well as most of the stuff that happened to me back then. That IS the basis of my issues with myself-- that because of all of that I realize I can't control outside things or other people, so I try to control MYSELF and how I handle things. It seems reasonable, yet what it has done has been make me always "working" on me, and never just accepting myself.

I will also add that I have made choices in my life and picked people to be in relationships with that were poor, so I had SOME choice as an adult -- I just made bad ones.

Right now I'm kind of a big mess, and I'm okay with that. I'm letting myself just BE a mess for a while. My fear has always been that if I ever allowed myself to be a mess, that nobody would stay with me. That the only way anyone would be around me very long was if I made things easy for them.
This, of course, is a ridiculous theory, but one I seem to have developed very early and have followed most of my life. :eek:

I just don't have the energy for it anymore, and I'm trying to trust in my partner enough to believe him that when he says he's not going to leave me just for being a mess he means it.

Of course, I don't intend to NEVER work on improving my life or myself again. I'm not sure I could willingly stop doing that. But I'm definitely scaling back on how I choose to do that, and I'm changing my reasons for WHY. I want to improve my life so that I enjoy it more and have more fulfillment. Not because I am deficient and that's the only way someone will love me.

Right now I'm only focusing on touching on my emotions in a more honest and open way (instead of trying to hide them and acting like I'm OK with everything), and trying to live in each moment instead of retreading the past or looking to the future. That's about all I can handle right now. Now that I think about it, it's a lot but I can do it in tiny doses a minute at a time, so it seems doable.

But this idea of happiness had come up in my mind quite a bit, and I wanted to gain some perspective on that because I am thinking that my idea in my head of what happy looks like is not real. It's more of a fantasy I made up in my head as a child to deal with my world being so messy and chaotic and having no control over it. There was this "safe place" in my mind-- a goal of what I could eventually have and I would be safe, secure, and happy.

And if I'm EVER going to break out of that fantasy/illusion, I need to have some idea of what an honest and realistic vision of being content in life might look like for myself.

SNeacail,

I think part of my issues are due to the fact that I've chosen to give, give, give to everybody in my life and haven't really been on the receiving end quite enough. This was my choice-- and again, same reasons-- I was buying somebody's love with my efforts. Doh! :)

Part of my being messy right now is choosing to be a little self-involved, and not running around trying to make life easier for everyone. It's wierd for me, but kind of nice. I do need to figure out what I need to refill my empty "giving" tank. Some of that is stuff I need from the people in my life, some of that will be things I do for myself.

I'm going to my good friend C's house tonight, whom I haven't seen in FOREVER. We've both been super busy, but I really need to make the effort more often, if only that we meet for dinner during the week or something. She is such a super duper supportive person, and has known me so long and seen me fall apart and be a mess and then tells me how much she loves me and how well I'm doing. LOL. That's a true friend!! It helps that she is sort of introspective as well and has had a crazy life too, and falls apart once in a while-- so she really gets me when I talk. She gives me empathy when I need it. She kicks my ass when I need that too. :)

[dingedheart]

What does the fantasy of happiness look like in your head? It may look very similar to mine....and it maybe very possible to achieve ....over time.

[SNeacail]

Part of my being messy right now is choosing to be a little self-involved, and not running around trying to make life easier for everyone. It's wierd for me, but kind of nice. I do need to figure out what I need to refill my empty "giving" tank. Some of that is stuff I need from the people in my life, some of that will be things I do for myself.

BALANCE - when we are constantly swinging from one extreme to the other it's constant chaos.

I have to monitor my husband's "giving" he will give and give and give until it takes it's tole physically and emotionally. He doesn't see this until everything at home falls apart because of it. While too much giving can actually get to be very selfish, it is still part of who you are and that should be nurtured. Don't forgo it completely.

[opalescent]

Happiness for me is a temporary state, like NRE in a relationship. Change happens and it evaporates. Contentment is a state that can be reached on a permanent, or near permanent basis.

When I have been content in my life, I have known who I am, who I am in relation to other people, especially my wife, understood our relationship and personal goals, and felt good that we were on our way to achieving them. I had work I enjoyed and a purpose in life - even if that purpose was not a grandiose thing but a small, personal scale one.

And, yes, this can be a trap too. One can stay put in the status quo for too long, avoid change, don't work on oneself. I've made all those mistakes more than once. (This is profoundly frustrating for me. I hate making the same mistakes over and over.)

So now that Beloved and I are re-evaluating everything - including if we should stay together at all - I am not happy. I am not content. I hope that Beloved and I can work through things and sort ourselves out - and that can lead to contentment again. We'll see.

Anyway, Minxxa, I think you are doing everything right. Kudos to you!

[MonoVCPHG]

For me happiness is a moment where I feel no regrets of the past or concerns for the future. I am present and my body feels lite as though filled with a child's laughter.

Those moments in their purest form are very rare.

[Minxxa]

What does the fantasy of happiness look like in your head? It may look very similar to mine....and it maybe very possible to achieve ....over time.

I'm actually not sure what it looks like concretely. There's a lot of desire for safety and security-- things I think really aren't possible in life.

BALANCE - when we are constantly swinging from one extreme to the other it's constant chaos.

I have to monitor my husband's "giving" he will give and give and give until it takes it's tole physically and emotionally. He doesn't see this until everything at home falls apart because of it. While too much giving can actually get to be very selfish, it is still part of who you are and that should be nurtured. Don't forgo it completely.

Yes, I do need to balance more. I definitely can't see me being so selfish that I would STOP giving, I just need to think about it more and make sure I'm giving something I have the room to give, and should give and give for the right reasons.

Happiness for me is a temporary state, like NRE in a relationship. Change happens and it evaporates. Contentment is a state that can be reached on a permanent, or near permanent basis.

When I have been content in my life, I have known who I am, who I am in relation to other people, especially my wife, understood our relationship and personal goals, and felt good that we were on our way to achieving them. I had work I enjoyed and a purpose in life - even if that purpose was not a grandiose thing but a small, personal scale one.


I am starting to really see that contentment is really what I'm looking for. Just some peace that I know where I stand with my relationships, and that I'm working towards things I want in my life. And also, maybe that I'm doing things in my life that I feel are worthwhile and/or enjoyable.

For me happiness is a moment where I feel no regrets of the past or concerns for the future. I am present and my body feels lite as though filled with a child's laughter.

Those moments in their purest form are very rare.

I love this, and agree-- happiness is more of a moment in time where nothing else exists except right now and the joy that is there. Contentment is the foundation that allows you to enjoy your life as a whole, even when things are difficult or trying.

I'm seeking contentment. Without that foundation, every difficulty feels overwhelming and like the world is ending. I need the roots to be able to weather the storms better.

And a few moments of joy and happiness would be lovely as well.

[River]

I really do know that a lot of that is up to me-- in that I need to be content with MYSELF first. And I never have had that. I've faked it a lot-- but it never translated into ACTUAL contentment so it would always fall apart at some point.

Tara Brach's book, Radical Acceptance, is the best medicine I've seen for this in my whole life. I can't recommend that book, and also her podcasts, enough. (Those podcasts are called "Audio Talks" on her website.):

www.tarabrach.com



.

[Minxxa]

Tara Brach's book, Radical Acceptance, is the best medicine I've seen for this in my whole life. I can't recommend that book, and also her podcasts, enough. (Those podcasts are called "Audio Talks" on her website.):

www.tarabrach.com



Interestingly, I just purchased her audio CD "Radical Self-Acceptance" this past weekend and have been listening to it. :D

I really connect with what she says, and so far it is very much helping me change my mindset and get more mindful in general (something I need very badly for many reasons).

I'll definitely check out the link though!!

[River]

True contentment has a lot more to do with accepting yourself, as is, even as you seek to be the best self you are.

Yes. And contentment is a kind of happiness, and is pleasurable -- as in bodily so. Contentment is part of the spectrum of happiness. That's how I see it.:)

Acceptance is such a profound inquiry. One can have self and other acceptance and still desire and work toward change. In fact, change comes much more easily when there is acceptance(!).

One of my greatest personal obstacles has been accepting the world situation--, politically / socially / environmentally / ecologically..., and getting past resentment about it. But I have decided that I need a light heart to do the work I want to do to help the world situation. So I am working on lightening my heart. :p And I laugh a lot more lately, and cry more, and smile more, and express much more joy and peace and pain and sorrow.

Call me River.

[River]

Interestingly, I just purchased her audio CD "Radical Self-Acceptance" this past weekend and have been listening to it. :D

I really connect with what she says, and so far it is very much helping me change my mindset and get more mindful in general (something I need very badly for many reasons).

I'll definitely check out the link though!!

Yay! :)

She has hours and hours of "Audio Talks" for free on her website! Yay! And her book is fantastic. I've given many copies away to friends and they all report that the book is fantastically helpful to them.

And, no, her publishing company has not hired me to say this stuff!

[River]

She is such a super duper supportive person, and has known me so long and seen me fall apart and be a mess and then tells me how much she loves me and how well I'm doing. LOL. That's a true friend!!

Judging by the post in which this excerpt is found, I'll agree with your super duper friend on how well you are doing. You're doing precisely what you need to do to grow and heal. It's obvious. And it is inspiring to see.:)

[Minxxa]

Judging by the post in which this excerpt is found, I'll agree with your super duper friend on how well you are doing. You're doing precisely what you need to do to grow and heal. It's obvious. And it is inspiring to see.:)

Thanks River. I'm feeling like I'm closer to being at least going the right direction. I'm learning a lot. Including the fact that I don't know as much as I think I do. ;)

I went to tara's website and I'm listening to one of her audio talks about fear: http://www.tarabrach.com/audio/2011-09-07-Finding-the-Juice-Inside-of-Fear-TaraBrach.mp3

And she says this:

"If you are constantly attacking yourself in some way it's fear. It's like if I don't keep attacking myself and judging myself I'll never get better enough to be embraced by other beings."

This is two sentences describing my entire life. :eek:

Time to stop and try something new.

[River]

I'm feeling like I'm closer to being at least going the right direction.

It certainly seems you are to me, and that "direction" is toward here, and this -- just as it is, arrival and dwelling in your own life, just as it is, only without so much of the sense that you're insufficient or inadequate.


I went to tara's website and I'm listening to one of her audio talks about fear: http://www.tarabrach.com/audio/2011-09-07-Finding-the-Juice-Inside-of-Fear-TaraBrach.mp3

And she says this:

"If you are constantly attacking yourself in some way it's fear. It's like if I don't keep attacking myself and judging myself I'll never get better enough to be embraced by other beings."

This is two sentences describing my entire life. :eek:


Isn't she wonderful? I really like her. And I listened to that same talk, myself. It was a good listen. Love her humor!

I've been caught in that same sticky flypaper (the Audo Talk quote). Only I saw the knot so closely that I made my reactions indesipherable knots, great convoluted conundrums. (Pardon the mixed metaphors!) Being clever has its downside! But my knots are now undoing themselves in laughter and joy. I don't need to understand my knots! I merely have to drop them as though they were red hot rocks, straight from a fire. This frees up the laughter, which gives a really nice belly massage, which ... frees up more laughter. (I laugh because I can't understand.):p

[Minxxa]

Acceptance is such a profound inquiry. One can have self and other acceptance and still desire and work toward change. In fact, change comes much more easily when there is acceptance(!)..

Acceptance is something I really need to do more often. Acceptance of myself, and others, and situations.

She has hours and hours of "Audio Talks" for free on her website! Yay! And her book is fantastic. I've given many copies away to friends and they all report that the book is fantastically helpful to them.

And, no, her publishing company has not hired me to say this stuff!

I love her. Definitely gets me to think. I'm sure I'll end up buying the Radical Acceptance book this week on my kindle. :)

I don't need to understand my knots! I merely have to drop them as though they were red hot rocks, straight from a fire. This frees up the laughter, which gives a really nice belly massage, which ... frees up more laughter. (I laugh because I can't understand.):p

That thought is so freeing-- that I don't need to understand my reactions to things, I just need to let them go. Recognize and Allow. And Let Be.

[River]

That thought is so freeing-- that I don't need to understand my reactions to things, I just need to let them go. Recognize and Allow. And Let Be.

Living with self-compassion, self-acceptance, self-loving... is fundamentally and drastically different from living without these, and (on one level) these two constitute differing paradigms (On the level of our thoughts - "understanding".) So, if we're heavily identified with the former paradigm, and our typical thoughts are tied to that paradigm, we will tend to think these thoughts "make sense" and are "accurate". The other thoughts will perhaps not even make sense to us, and will appear inaccurate.

There comes a time when we are right between these "paradigms," and we can feel really lost and confused much of the time while in this threshold / passage / transition.... Our basic sense of identity is crumbling! And this is a really good time for much laughter and much saying "I just don't know" ... "I just don't understand".

And ... I don't! I just don't understand. But laughter works. It heals.:)

[dingedheart]

It seems the fantasy is just a safe harbor......and because you've never had that it seems far off or impossible....I think it's very possible for you.

[Minxxa]

There comes a time when we are right between these "paradigms," and we can feel really lost and confused much of the time while in this threshold / passage / transition.... Our basic sense of identity is crumbling! And this is a really good time for much laughter and much saying "I just don't know" ... "I just don't understand".

And ... I don't! I just don't understand. But laughter works. It heals.:)

This very much explains where I've been lately, though I'm starting to really SEE it now. I could definitely feel that I wasn't who I "had been", and that the way I'd been getting through life wasn't working for me, but I didn't really know who I was going to become.

I definitely feel like my basic identity I thought I had in my mind is going away and I'm not sure what's going to replace it. It's a bit freaky... but good.

Funny about the "I don't know" ... I was just telling hubs this past weekend that I'm definitely seeing I don't know as much as I thought I did and I'm just going to accept that I don't know what the hell's going on and just go with it and see where it takes me. :)

[River]

I definitely feel like my basic identity I thought I had in my mind is going away and I'm not sure what's going to replace it. It's a bit freaky... but good.

Funny about the "I don't know" ... I was just telling hubs this past weekend that I'm definitely seeing I don't know as much as I thought I did and I'm just going to accept that I don't know what the hell's going on and just go with it and see where it takes me. :)

I strongly sense about you that your threshold here is not from one self image to another but much more radical than that, and that you and I are walking the same amazing path, one which leads beyond dependence on self-images altogether. It is not that we will not have self-image, but that we will be less and less and still less identified with these, and thus much more fluid and flexible in our lives. Much more capable of conscious self-and-life creation in the moment. Our lives are artworks. Our selves are works of art. And we're becoming more and more free to paint and sculpt these as we like, rooted in our true nature.

Please look deeper than images for the source of value: yours and that of the world, others.... Look to "essence". To beyond images and thoughts, deeper in. You will readily discover there, deep within, your own essential--and limitless--value and worth, which you can live as mystery but can never grasp and know. Only in living it in each fresh moment does it live and grow and transform and heal.

To be fully alive is to be always changing, in every moment. This is why self-knowledge is always limited, however useful it may be. Think of the usefulness of self-knowledge as like the usefulness of maps, which are never the territory and always very limited. It takes much courage to be fully alive, because one is dying and being born continuously.

Laugh at any arising tendencies to seek comfort in the familiar when the familiar is paltry and small. Lift your sails and ... enjoy!