View Full Version : Poly journey of Mya and rory
I feel like I need a place to share my thoughts about poly and rory said she feels the same way. So we decided to start this blog together.
So me and rory are girlfriends to each other. Both of us also have a husband and neither of them are currently in other relationships, so together we form a N or Z, however you want to look at it. All of us are open to the idea of more partners so we're not poly-fi. Although the husbands aren't looking for anyone and neither are me and rory, but it's not forbidden either. I think at the moment we're all happy with the current situation, but never say never. :)
In a couple of days rory and I have been together for 4 months. Yey! :) Me and JJ have been together for 8 years and rory and her husband for 7 years. Both original couples had had an open relationship for quite some time before me and rory met.
My first contact with poly as a concept happened when I watched a documentary about it on TV with JJ. We talked about wheather we could ever imagine ourselves in a situation like that and we came to the conclusion that we could. This was just in theory though, we didn't do anything about it then. Maybe a year after that we took the next step, which was allowing kissing other people. We did that, saw each other kiss other people and didn't feel jealous. That's when we decided we could also have sex with other people, why not. And that's when I met rory. ;) It was obvious quite soon that it was more than sex. We developed feelings for each other and very soon after that we both had discussions with our husbands about us dating. They both were fine with it and that's how we got here. Baby steps. :)
Our lives are in a way split between two countries. When I met rory, I was working abroad and temporarily living apart from JJ. So 4 moths ago when this started, I was in a LDR with JJ, but in the same country with rory. Quite soon after we met I moved back in with JJ and then I was in a LDR with rory. I lived with him for a month and left again, this time just to another city but stayed in the same country with JJ. I have been living here for 2,5 months now and I'm going back to JJ in a month, this is just a summer job. Rory and her husband came here to this country for the summer as well so at the moment we're all living in the same country but in 3 different cities! :rolleyes: I live 2 hours from rory and 7 hours from JJ. In the autumn, rory and her husband go back to the other country and I'm staying here with JJ. The plan for the near future is that I'll spend one week of each month at their place and 3 weeks with JJ. This summer has been great because I've had a lot of one-on-one-time with rory and all four of us have been able to meet each other several times. In the future we are hoping to end up in the same city, all four of us. If all goes well, we might all live together, but apartments next to each other would be nice too. :)
I'll add a word. Up there's basically how things started. Me and my husband (I should think of a on-line name for him, Alec..?) had an sexually open relationship for about 3 years before I met Mya. I had thought about poly before, but didn't really see it as realistic. Oh well, I'm happy I was wrong. ;)
I'm not sure if Alec is poly or not, he's not really sure either. He hasn't had any real attractions during us being together, but you never know. Could be that the right person just hasn't come along. Anyway, he doesn't really see himself in any other relationships any time soon, if ever.
None of us have had any jealousy during this time. There have been some feelings of nervousness and discomfort, mostly when Mya, me and Alec hung out for the first time, but it wasn't major and was easily sorted out. Now that all of us have met a few more times it's all really good. Mya's coming to visit me and Alec on the weekend, I'm really looking forward to that; both the time as a group and also some alone time with Mya. :)
BlackUnicorn
08-04-2011, 09:26 AM
Cool, you have a blog :)!
In the autumn, rory and her husband go back to the other country and I'm staying here with JJ. The plan for the near future is that I'll spend one week of each month at their place and 3 weeks with JJ.
Oy, so you are thinking of going back and forth two countries yourself?
Cool, you have a blog :)!
Yeah, I feel that it will be fun, and helpful, to write in a place where people "get" this stuff. :)
---
I'll tell a bit about myself. I'm 23 years old and study social sciences in University. I'm not a native English speaker, so please feel free to ask me to clarify if I'm not making sense. :) I tend to think about and analyse stuff a lot, including poly things (lately, them especially). I've been thinking that I don't really agree with the claim that poly is a lot of work. I think it can be, but for me it hasn't been since I enjoy (over-)analysing and talking about things with my partners; thus, I don't consider it work. :p
I think there are some patterns of behaviour in relationships I've recently begun to notice and which I'd like to change. I think realising these has been a process that strarted before I "started" poly. However, I think this new situation will help me actually make the changes, because it requires it more urgently.
Right now I'm talking about the fact that I'm a people pleaser, or have been. I don't really care what strangers think about me, but I guess I'm afraid of not being (totally) accepted by the people I love. I learned to please as a kid, and having undestood that I'm now started to unlearn it. For many years with Alec I pretty much ignored what I wanted and needed: hell, I had no idea what it was that I wanted. He never asked or expected me to do this, it was just the programming I had. I've recognised this pattern in recent years, and am trying to change that. That means analysing what it is that I want and need, not ignoring it, and making healthy boundaries. It still causes me varying amounts of anxiety, though, not being able to do/be what somebody I love expects/wants of me, even though I won't compromise myself anymore.
Enter poly. I think poly situation will help me with this work a lot. Before, there weren't in practice many situations where I needed to apply what I had thought about this. I'm usually pretty flexible, and so is Alec, so there weren't many conflicting issues. Sometimes, though, it would happen that the wants of a friend of mine and Alec's wants would clash. These instances were rare, and they would cause me intense anxiety, but in hindsight they were helpful because I was in a situation where I couldn't please both of the people I loved. I had to face the disappointment, and guess what: the world didn't end and it usually wasn't nearly as big a deal to anybody else but me. Nobody got mad at me or abandoned me and I was accepted even though I made a decision which wasn't everybody's first choice. So, these kind of situations, I think, are very good for me (even though I still suffer the anxiety and hate it). And, not surprisingly, there are way more of them when you are poly and have two partners. There just are times when I just basically can't please both, and they are way more frequent than they are with a partner and a friend. I think it will get easier, both with practice and with the repeated experience of nothing horrible following from me doing not as a loved one would wish. :)
Oy, so you are thinking of going back and forth two countries yourself?
Yes, that is what I'm going to do. :) This is not a difficult thing for me, because for the last 5 years or so I've been traveling between two cities/countries anyway. I'm one of those "home is where I lay my hat" people. I can feel at home almost anywhere. JJ has never lived abroad, I have twice. That last time I fell in love with the city I lived in. It's a gorgeus place and I want to go back. Fortunately that's also the place where rory and Alec are planning to move in a few years. All I have to do is convince JJ to come along. :p He did like the city as well when he was visiting me there. We have had some long conversations about moving there and at the moment it looks like he wants to do it too. :) But when, that is the question. In the meanwhile I'm flying between these two countries and I don't mind at all. In the autumn I start working as a freelancer for the same company I work for now. So this gives me the freedom to travel and spend time abroad, which is perfect for this situation. :)
First we were talking about 2 weeks/2 weeks split in my time between rory and JJ. But then I realised most of my friends and family are where JJ lives. I have nothing else in the other city, just rory and Alec. So if we did 2 weeks and 2 weeks, that would mean that I would spend much less time with JJ than rory, because I would see all my friends during that 2 weeks with JJ. That's why we decided on the 1 week/3 weeks split. I think this is also better for Alec. He doesn't have to adjust his life as much as he would if I spent half of my time there. But we'll see how this goes in the autumn. ;)
Since beginning our poly relationship I have read a lot of stuff about poly on the Internet. I knew of poly beforehand, but not much beyond that. Thus, learning about all the different ways of "doing poly" has caused me to reflect a lot on what kind of a poly is good for me. What is it that I want, what feels right to me, and what doesn't.
One poly "style" I can't relate to is a rigid primary/secondary view of partners. I have a really strong feeling of wanting my partners to be equal, and had this feeling even before embarking on poly. I have had some difficulties wrapping my mind around the concept of equality not meaning sameness, and what that means in practice, but I'm getting there. Anyway, today I was thinking more about why I feel a primary/secondary relationship wouldn't feel right to me.
One thing I realised was that there is a conflict between what I feel is right and one thought often (but not always!) associated with the primary/secondary view. The thought being "You will be my primary: therefore in case of a conflict situation, you and your needs will always come before the one's of my secondary partner, simply due to that position.". I.e. I would give my primary partner a right to demand anything from me, no matter how unreasonable, because "he was there first" (or because I gave him that position). The underlying assumption being that I will make choices based not on any objective reasons but on "who I love the most" or "who is the most important to me" or whatever the primary status is supposed to signify. Of course, there is usually an assumption that goes with it that the primary partner won't demand anything completely unreasonable and horrifying; say, my secondary's mother dies and my primary doesn't want me to spend time comforting her because he want's to watch a movie. But, I don't know. Sometimes it can be used that way, e.g. vetoing somebody without any significant reason. And, if I make decisions and choises based on how reasonable the request is, why would my partner need a primary status if they are not planning on making unreasonable requests? Either they are, or they don't trust me to take them and their needs into consideration. Either way, I think there's a deeper problem.
I feel the same way about primary/secondary than rory. I don't want to use those terms, because they don't represent how I feel. I know they don't always mean that primary's needs come first, but I just don't have any reason to say that the other one is my primary partner. We don't have any kids but in theory I could see myself having them with either one (or both) of my partners. In practice rory doesn't want kids and I'm not too sure if I want them either. Anyway, my point is that I could see myself making all kinds of life-changing decisions with both my partners. Maybe not right now, since we've only been together for four months, but just like in any other relationship: when we're ready for it.
I had such a lovely weekend with rory and Alec. :) We got plenty of alone time with rory and I also enjoyed Alec's company a lot. I can see that me and Alec are getting more and more relaxed with each other and I love that! We can joke around and talk about stuff, just like friends. Also I can kiss rory or hold hands in front of him and obviously rory and Alec can do the same in front of me and nobody is feeling uncomfortable.
This weekend I had a huge epiphany. I've been talking about wanting to move back to the city I used to live (where I lived when I met rory) a lot lately. Now I realised that it's not only that I want to live in that particular city, but I also really don't want to live where JJ lives now, which is my home town as well. It's a small town and I just feel there isn't enough for me there. I realised that I have to get out of there at some point, to a bigger city. This is huge for me because my whole life I've thought that my home town is the place I want to settle down to. I can live somewhere else for certain periods of time, but I would always go back there. We have a house there, my parents live there and quite many of my friends as well. And suddenly I feel that that's not the place I want to be anymore. So.. let's hope that JJ wants to move with me to the big city. If not, we'll have a LDR for the rest of our lives or we'll have to break up. Doesn't sound good, does it?
I had a good conversation with JJ about me not wanting to stay in our hometown. He seemed quite sad about it because he loves the place as much as I used to. However, it looks like he would be willing to move with me to the big city, which is great. :) The only thing I'm worried about is that I'm not sure if he's doing the thing he really wants to do. Sometimes he does seem excited about moving but other times I see he's a bit hesitant. Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see how things progress.
I'm spending the next weekend with rory. First she's coming to my place and then we're going to meet some friends of ours in another city. I love it that we've already made some friends of our own that we can meet as a couple. :) Next week I get to meet rory's best friend, they've known each other since childhood. That's kinda exciting! This is the first time I'm meeting someone from rory's life that has been there since the beginning of rory and Alec's relationship and even before that. Rory has already met two friends of mine, one only briefly. I would love her to meet my best friend but so far we haven't been in the same place at the same time. I hope we can arrange it during the summer when rory is still in this country.
I've been thinking about my bisexuality lately. I think the best way to describe my preferences would be that I like mostly "feminine features" in a personality, but sometimes you can find them in a man as well. In a way I feel that both my partners are quite feminine, but not too much. This is really difficult to explain. :p I mean I think JJ is more feminine than men in average, which I love. And while rory is feminine too, she's not over the top feminine, which I wouldn't like either.
It's weird even writing about this because first I would have to define "feminine" and I don't really know how to. It would just be a list of features which obviously wouldn't apply to everyone, so I'll just leave it at that. :rolleyes:
Gosh, haven't had time to write, though I've surely felt like it. Don't really remember what I wanted to write about. :o There's just been a lot going on. In my head, mostly.
I feel there have been a lot of "first steps" during the summer. It makes me kinda overwhelmed but not in a bad way; I don't feel like slowing down but there's a lot to process. A week ago Mya spent the weekend with me and Alec at our place (not our home but where we're staying with him) for the first time. Also, we've slept at the same apartment a few times before but this was the first time I slept with Mya while Alec was in the same apartment. In both literal and the other sense. :cool: Well, all interesting. Some of the monogamous people I know would possibly be surprised by the fact that the literal sense felt stranger to him that the sexual side. We talked about it, and it seems he didn't feel too bad, just missed me some. Mostly it just felt odd, that I was home but not sleeping in the same bed with him. I think the situation was a bit odd for all of us, but I'm sure that will pass with time as we get used to it. An expectation that hasn't failed me thus far: after all, most of the first steps have felt just as odd, but now many of them feel completely natural, such as PDAs with either one in front of the other. Poly sure is interesting, though. :p
I spent the weekend with Mya. We had some alone time and then went to meet some friends of ours. It was really lovely. <3 It was a large-ish group of people, and not everybody knew each other, and there were some we didn't know yet, so we had sort of an "introductory round". It was funny, since they started from the other side of the table and everybody said where they lived and whether they had husbands or were single. So, I got to say that I have a husband, and a girlfriend while pointing at Mya. :D Cool!
Also, we've slept at the same apartment a few times before but this was the first time I slept with Mya while Alec was in the same apartment. In both literal and the other sense. :cool: Well, all interesting. Some of the monogamous people I know would possibly be surprised by the fact that the literal sense felt stranger to him that the sexual side. We talked about it, and it seems he didn't feel too bad, just missed me some. Mostly it just felt odd, that I was home but not sleeping in the same bed with him. I think the situation was a bit odd for all of us, but I'm sure that will pass with time as we get used to it.
For me, this situation was particularly strange because I had never had sex with someone while a person I know is in the next room. I mean never. :o I moved out of my parents house quite young so I didn't have to deal with that and also I've never had sex with my partner while we've been visiting someone or someone's visiting us. It just doesn't feel right and I usually can't get in the right mood if I know someone I know could hear us. This time, maybe thanks to NRE, I did get in the mood and did it anyway, but I did feel strange. However, this is a situation I just have to accept since that's what the future holds for us. It's a rare luxury that I've had an apartment for myself for the summer and me and rory have been able to meet each other there. After the summer I'm going to be visiting rory and Alec's home so we don't really have any choice but to do it while he's in the apartment as well. It's just so hard being quiet! :p
I'm feeling anticipation. There's all kinds of good things coming, and I'm looking forward to them, although they come with some negative sides to them.
Tomorrow I'm travelling to Mya and we are spending together our last weekend for the summer. It's gonna be just the two of us, which will be lovely. I mean, we've spent a lot of time recently as a group, which has been great, but haven't had much alone time except for short periods. And we need it since it will be a while 'til the next time. Me and Alec are going home again in a week, and Mya is moving home to JJ as well. Therefore, our distance will go from 200km/2 hours by train to around 2000km/10 hours by car+plane+train... Oh, well. To be honest, it hasn't really felt like an LDR during the summer, since we've been able to meet almost weekly. It has been wonderful, but have to get adjusted to serious LDR again. We're planning to meet once a month in the future.
Otherwise, I'm really looking forward to going home. I'm exhausted to stay with relatives. Since I moved out at 16 I've always had my own place with Alec, and have gotten very used to my peace. I'm obviously really grateful for all the support we've received for the support (living abroad has costed a lot so we couldn't have rented a place for the summer). But I'm really looking forward to getting home with him.
Also, despite of my distance becoming bigger with Mya, I feel that I'll be able to be a better partner for both my loves once I get home. Right now I feel stretched out. I'm way more social than usual (I'm meeting many friends who live here), and all the sceduling is making me tired. And of course the biggest thing is the lack of my own space. Luckily, I've managed to take some time for myself, and had enough quality time with both Mya and Alec, so that all of our needs are being met. BUT, I like the thought of abundance, so that we wouldn't all only be getting what we need. Rather we would be getting more than we need, so we can feel there's plenty to go around and quality loving/sexy time is not a scarce resource. :) Because I do feel that I have a lot to give, but it has been limited because of our special living arrangements during the summer. Of course, it will still be limited with Mya because of the LDR but that's something we'll have to live with for the time being.
BlackUnicorn
08-25-2011, 01:12 PM
Therefore, our distance will go from 200km/2 hours by train to around 2000km/10 hours by car+plane+train... Oh, well. To be honest, it hasn't really felt like an LDR during the summer, since we've been able to meet almost weekly. It has been wonderful, but have to get adjusted to serious LDR again. We're planning to meet once a month in the future.
You guys are so brave, Mya in particular, deciding to live in two countries in order for everyone to be happy. I don't know if I could do it.
You guys are so brave, Mya in particular, deciding to live in two countries in order for everyone to be happy. I don't know if I could do it.
Aaww, thanks. :o I guess it must look like a big compromise, but I don't think anyone who knows me will be very surprised about this arrangement. I mean, I love traveling (not just the new places but also the journey) and I also love the country rory and Alec are returning to. Although it's not the same city I used to live in, it's still the same country and I love the thought of spending time there. I've noticed that I tend to think quite similarly in many things: you can have your cake and eat it too. Well, the poly thing is obviously one of them. Living in two countries is another. I love the thought of enjoying the benefits of two different countries on a regular basis. It can get quite tiring after a while but I believe it will be worth it. :) And then again, if I've done it for so long already, why not add a few more years. :D I don't know if I could do this forever. Now I'm thinking about the fact that we'll likely live in the same country in a year or so and in the same city in 3 years. It's not too bad. I have faith in us, we can do this. :)
Last weekend was amazing! Me, rory and Alec traveled to JJ to spend the weekend at our house. I can't believe how much fun we're having! I truly feel like the luckiest person in the world to have these wonderful people in my life, lovers and metamours. :) On the way back I met Alec's mum and a few other relatives. It was an interesting situation. They don't know about me and rory yet, so I was just a friend. At least now when rory and Alec tell them, they'll know who they're talking about.
So tomorrow is my last day in my current job. Rory is coming here and we're spending the last weekend together before we all head back home. It's been an amazing summer, but the situation has also been very out of the ordinary. Everybody except JJ was living where they don't normally live. Like rory said, it hasn't really felt like a LDR with her, since we've been able to meet almost every week. 2 hours is nothing really. For me it has felt more like a LDR with JJ, because 7 hours is way more and we haven't met every week. Well, it's going to be the other way around from next week onwards, so I'm glad that I got to spend a lot of time with rory. :)
I'm glad you met Alec's mother, I really like her and my own mother is quite useless... :) I would have really liked to tell her we are in a relationship but we were there for just about an hour and a poly conversation is going to require a lot more time...
I have faith in us as well. I don't really know what it'll be like to be in a LDR, since I haven't really experienced one before. I know that I'll miss Mya a lot. But I strongly feel that we can do it. Our relationship is worth it, definitely. And I find that the worst of NRE is over: there's still a lot of the good stuff, but I am no longer obsessing over Mya and poly and am well able to think about other stuff and concentrate on other things. And that's definitely a good thing. It will make being apart easier, too, being able to have a life... ;)
The weekend was perfect. Just perfect. Me and rory had quality time together and did all sorts of things. She came with me when I had a tattoo on Friday, it was lovely to have her there for support. Oh and she brought me a sweet little flower, I loved that! On Saturday we went shopping for a bit and then had a night out. We went to listen to a cover band playing my favourite artist's songs and some others too. They were really good! And then today we stayed in and just talked for hours, analysing everything. We do that a lot. :p We talked about some quite important subjects and I felt very close to her emotionally. Gosh, I can't believe I've found someone like her. This is just too good to be true. :o
Now I feel sad and happy at the same time. Tomorrow I'm moving back home to JJ which I'm really looking forward to. But I also know that I'm not going to see rory for a month, except via skype of course. It's going to be difficult to adjust to it, but I'm sure we'll get used to it.
I'm back home, and really happy about that. Me and Alec both have our own spaces again, which is really good for us. We got some new stuff for our apartment, including a good mattress for overnight guests... ;)
I miss Mya quite a bit, since we haven't seen each other in almost two weeks, but so far I feel it's been pretty easy to handle. Obviously I've had a lot to do with the moving so I haven't had time to dwell on it. We've begun to use more skype again (during the summer we met weekly so there wasn't much need) and Mya and JJ are coming to visit in a couple of weeks, so it'll be ok. :)
Yesterday we had a lovely skype call with Mya. We talked about a lot of things, and also about what we like about in each other and this relationship. I love Mya a lot and I feel our relationship enrichens my life. I love the fact that she likes to think and talk about all kinds of stuff and has a broad range of interests. Also, it feels good that all of this is starting to feel so natural. There isn't that overwhelming need to process poly all the time as there was for a while. We've been together 5 months now, and while there is obviously still some NRE there's also a growing amount of the more stable kind of love. I feel secure and confident of our connection and her love.
I'm really happy with the whole situation. I think opening to poly has changed much of how I used to think, how I used to live my love life. I'm not sure who it was on this forum, and where, who wrote something really good about time sharing and the effects of NRE. But the point was that it's important, whomever you're spending time with, to truly be present in that moment. And that message really struck me. Me and Alec started our relationship young and had been together for 7 years. I was happy with him before but I do think I wasn't always really present with him. I also haven't been great with boundaries, which contributes: e.g. if I don't get enough alone time I can't enjoy spending time with him and he can't know I need it if I don't tell him (or if I don't realise that need myself). Somehow being in a different relationship dynamic at the same time has helped me to see more clearly what it is I need and want in a relationship. And all the reading about poly and communication and boundaries has helped, too. I think a lot of this has been a change coming for a longer time, but poly stepped in at a really good time and has had an impact as well. I feel I'm being present with Alec, and really seeing who he is. Obviously I knew he had changed a lot during the time we've been together, but somehow the fact that we had been life partners for so long had made me feel like I already know him. Which was true in some respects. But I've also learned a lot about him in the last 5 months, stuff that's changed but also stuff we have just never come to talk about. I feel I appreciate him more than I used to. Don't get me wrong, I did respect him and love him before, too! I hope it doesn't sound like I didn't. :) But I'm just realising all there is to him I didn't know about, all of which makes me love him even more.
At this moment I feel I'm living life to the fullest in every respect, including relationships. And I'm seriously enjoying all the openness, company, love, sex and connectedness... Life is good. <3
Alternative first conversations
I can't stop thinking I've been really lucky with how easy it has been for me and Alec to open up our previously-for years-monogamous relationship. It seems to be so hard for many people, and I can totally understand why. But somehow it's just worked for us, and we've come to want similar things at the same time. I want to write about my experience, because I feel it's still important to know it doesn't have to be so difficult for everybody planning to open up.
We'd been together maybe around 3 years when group sex scenarios started to emerge as a theme in fantasies we shared. They became quite common, but we didn't discuss that outside of bed for a while. I started to think about sexual openness, and came to the conclusion that I wouldn't feel bad or jealous or threatened if he slept with somebody else, and therefore I saw no need to hold on to the monogamous rules anymore. I didn't feel like I needed freedom for myself, but I saw no reason not to "give him permission" to do stuff with others if he felt like it. I analysed this stuff on an internet forum first (some things don't change ;)). Pretty much everybody there was really monogamous, and when I brought up the idea of giving partner permission to sleep with others, they said they would react really badly to such suggestion and think it must be because I'd want the same for myself. Now my reaction would be something along wtf :rolleyes: :eek: but then I got really nervous. I still proceeded to write a letter to Alec about it and waited, anxiously, while he read through it. And his reaction was something to the effect of "well isn't this sort of what we've been talking about". :) So, kind of anti-climactic, which I'm a total fan of. ;)
Poly talk, 3 years after that, was none more dramatic. I had visited Mya and after that I realised that I don't just want to have sex and friendship with her but that we have mutual romantic feelings. Once I realised that, I approached the topic with Alec thinking that if he's not ok with me having a relationship with Mya I would just try to step back and wait for the crush to be over. After all, I didn't know how he would feel, since we hadn't really ever talked about the possibility of poly, only about sexual relationships and a bit about casual sort of dating. But when we talked he didn't feel any jealousy about my feelings for Mya, and was fine with us starting a relationship. It's actually pretty amazing. I'm sure Alec had ever considered to have another relationship himself, and he doesn't know anybody in this kind of arrangement. And yet he seemed to be instantly able to wrap his mind around the concept and didn't feel weird about it. Our talk even touched some practical issues and boundaries: he said that he's fine with any amount of love I may in the future have for somebody else, but what he wants/needs is that we'll stay together and I'll live (not necessarily exclusively but also) with him.
So, not saying that it can't be hard to open up a monogamous relationship, just that it doesn't have to be. I know I would have liked to know that when I was anxiously waiting for Alec's reaction to my open-relationship-letter. That would have enabled me to trust my instinct, that he won't freak out, rather than believe the people telling me he will freak out because that's how everybody reacts to a proposition of non-monogamy.
I feel secure and confident of our connection and her love.
I smiled like crazy when reading this. I totally feel like that too and I do love you a lot! :)
I also feel like this new situation has improved my relationship with JJ. I see new sides of him and we get to talk about things we wouldn't necessarily talk about otherwise.
This weekend I had a lot of quality time with JJ. I opened up a conversation about our sex life and the ways we could improve it. It went really well and we ended up sharing all kinds of new things we didn't know about each other. There seems to always be new things to learn even after 8 years. :) And obviously things also change so it's important to talk about these things every once in a while. I'm happy we did that and the results were very...fulfilling. :p
JJ told me that he feels truly happy in his life, all aspects of it. And I do too. I feel like me and JJ have really reconnected during the last few weeks and I'm even happier than I was before, if that's even possible.
I think I've lost a friend because of being in a poly relationship. :( She wasn't a very close friend anyway, so it's not too bad. But I do feel sad that this is something that makes someone disappear from my life. She is a former coworker of mine, from the time when I was working abroad. We kept writing each other every once in a while after I moved away from that country. Nothing really deep though, just keeping up with what's happening in each other's lives. Well, when I wrote her to tell her about this new situation of mine, she never replied. She didn't even answer my questions about her life. I waited over a month and wrote her again, this time not mentioning rory or anything about poly. I just asked how she was doing etc. And she didn't reply to that one either. :( This was about two weeks ago so I guess that's it then, I give up.
I'm very lucky though to have my closest friends and my mom totally accepting this. :) I have several people to talk to and I don't have to tip toe around this subject with anyone. Except my dad because he doesn't know yet. Okay well, there is this one friend who doesn't quite get it. He seemed ok in the beginning when we told him but not too long ago he said to JJ that he thinks I'm just bossing JJ around and he does everything I tell him to. :rolleyes: And also, he thinks we're divorcing soon, this can't mean anything else. Well, obviously he's wrong and JJ told him that. But we'll see, at least there's some hope and we can discuss it. It's not like the one I mentioned in the beginning that just stopped answering me.
My mom has actually been pretty amazing about this. It was some kind of a shock to her when I first told her but she got over it really quickly. Now she even says she might consider this kind of lovestyle herself! She's single at the moment so who knows what's going to happen.
We took a trip with Alec on the weekend. It was lovely, we had a really good time and enjoyed ourselves. I really love travelling with him, which we haven't had a chance to do in a long time since most of our energy and finances have gone into our moving to another country a year ago and beginning our life here. But now we had the time and wow, I've really missed that. Exploring a new place with him, it's just really exiting and fun. It's also been good to be home. Particularly after the trip I've felt like we are getting into our normal rythms and our normal routines, and it's just wonderful.
I've been missing Mya pretty strongly. It's been almost 3 weeks since we last saw each other. I think the tipping point is somewhere around 2 weeks. At least that's how it seems, I'm sure I'll know better with more LDR experience. Anyway, after 2 weeks it seems I really start to miss everything where you need the physical touch, and I feel that I need more frequent communication to avoid feeling disconnected.
However, we got some really amazing skype time yesterday evening and today morning (something like 8 hours put together :p) so I feel totally reconnected. Also, it's only a week until Mya and JJ come to visit. I also talked about this with Mya, and we concluded that this time it will have been an unusually long time between our meetings, because of other commitments in our schedules. But our plan for the future is for Mya to visit me (and sometimes the other way around) every fourth week, so it will only be a 3 weeks wait in between. That way, even if it starts to feel harder after 2 weeks you'll know that it'll only be a week. :)
I'm feeling really happy in my life right now. Actually, it's been sort of a continuing trend lately, but I'm not complaining. So incredibly happy and fulfilled. :)
We've had a good amount of skype time with rory this week. I like skype a lot. It's as close as you can get to an actual face to face conversation with the webcam and all. Obviously I still miss her touch, but yey, only few days to go until we see each other! :) Today we talked about the future and how I'm going to spend quite a lot of time there. We were thinking that I should bring my toothbrush and few other things and leave them there. It's almost like taking the first steps to moving in together! :D I actually like the thought of having few of my own things there, like it's my second home. It makes me all warm inside. :o
After we've spent the weekend at rory and Alec's, me and JJ are going to take a 2 week trip. After that he goes back home and I go visit my friends from my time working abroad and then spend a week at rory and Alec's again. So I'm going to be away from home for like a month! It's cool to have a job where I can do that. :cool:
^Totally cool! And I'm really looking forward both to your visit with JJ and your week-long-visit! :)
I'm exited to see what it will be like having first Mya and JJ stay for the weekend. And still more exited for the week Mya comes here. The week will be quite a new experience, since I'll spend most of the nights with Mya. Current plan is 5 or 6 nights of the week and one or two with Alec. I feel that's reasonable, since it'll then be another 3 weeks before Mya can visit again, so I'll spend more time with her, but I think I'll still want to spend at least one night with Alec in the middle of the week. We haven't really talked a lot about it with Alec yet, so I'll have to check how he feels about the night-divide in plans.
Fortunately we've got good physical space to arrange that. I really like the possibilities our apartment has, even though it's a one-bedroom flat. The bedroom and the living room are both quite big with good doors, so sound doesn't travel much, and the bathroom is in between them. I feel that it's easy to make the arrangements so that there is private space for anybody wanting it and also for both couples. Also, Alec will be working by then (he just got a job, yay!!!), so we'll all be busy during days but the time periods may be a bit different. When we started our poly relationship, the thing I was most anxious was dividing my time between partners, but it seems there'll be plenty of my time for both of them. :)
I think one of the weirdest things in our poly situation is that I get to see my partner's relationship skills when relating to someone else than me. I've learned a lot about rory when I've seen her interact with Alec. And I bet she has seen sides of me that wouldn't have come up if I weren't with JJ. For example me and rory haven't had a single fight during this time but she has seen me argueing with JJ so she now knows how I might behave in that kind of situation.
One thing that I've learned is that I need to ask for what I want. I haven't done that much with JJ because we seem to have quite similar needs when it comes to ways we show affection, amount of communication etc. At first it felt weird to me that I would have to say what I wanted. If my partner loves me, they would know what I want, right? :rolleyes: Well, now I know better. I guess this one comes down to the love languages many people here talk about. I suppose my and JJ's love languages are quite similar so we've never had to talk about these things. He does just the things I expect someone does if they love me. Me and rory talked about this and she thinks it's good to ask for what you want, how else would the other one know. But for me this isn't so straightforward. If for example I needed to hear the words 'I love you' more often, I would really struggle to let my partner know that. If I did and the partner started saying it more, I would probably feel it's not genuine and couldn't enjoy it.
This is something I really need to learn especially in a poly relationship. I need to feel more comfortable asking for what I want because that is just one of the things my partner needs to care about. She also needs to care about what her other partner needs and what she herself needs, so she can't concentrate 100% on me.
Mya and JJ are coming today to stay for the weekend! I'm exstatic!
Nothing more really to add! :D :cool:
The weekend was great. It seems that everybody had a good time. It was wonderful to see Mya, and we had a few hours of alone-time, too (we sent the guys shopping :D). Not enough to totally reconnect after a month of being apart, I'm afraid, but it was still lovely.
So far, we've had a few of these weekends with all four of us hanging out together. It's always been a lot of fun but it's also quite intense. I'm usually not a terribly social person: I enjoy time with friends but I need my own space. I think for me a weekend is pretty much a maximum time of this kind of intense group-time so that I'm still able to enjoy it. There have also been times I've spent time with Mya and Alec, and those have also been pretty intense, but in a slightly different way, since I obviously know both of them better than I do JJ (we're still getting to know each other, as are Alec and JJ, and Mya and Alec as well, although they've seen each other a bit more often). We'll see how it goes when Mya comes to visit: it'll be for a week, but all of us are doing other stuff too (they work and I study) and all of us will have some space and stuff of our own, so it won't be as intense as it is when it's weekend and one or two people are visiting. We'll be sharing more of everyday life and it'll be less of a 'special occasion', so it won't be/feel rude for anybody to take some time alone if they need it etc.
When we spend time as a group, I still seem to put some pressure on myself for everybody to enjoy themselves (and Alec does this, too; don't know about Mya and JJ). I know it isn't smart, cause it obviously isn't my responsibility and I can't make people have fun if it doesn't come naturally no matter how badly I want it. So I know it's moronic and I'm trying to stop. And it's getting easier to let it be the more time we do spend together and the more evidence I get that people actually like each other. I almost drove myself crazy with this the first time me, Mya and Alec hung out (as they can testify), and compared to that it's getting a thousand times better. But it's still exhausting, to stress over the what ifs and stuff I really have no control over (and I guess that's why I have such a hard time in letting it go). If anybody has any magical tips, besides trying to rationalise myself out of it, feel welcome to share... ;)
I had an enlightening poly conversation with Alec yesterday. We haven't really talked about it as exhaustingly in a while. I mean, we've communicated about specific situations and if there's been something acute, but we haven't had a "general-poly-discussion-session" as such, other than the ones we had in the beginning of all of this. And I don't think it's a bad thing that we haven't had those kinds of conversations, because we've still communicated everything that's been relevant to the situation at hand, and if we're constantly talking about something we have no time to process and form opinions of our own (this is how it works with me and Alec, and in our dynamic).
Anyway, I feel very good that we discussed things at length, even though it wasn't all warm and fussy. There was a lot of new information for me (though no total surprises), and I'm sure some for him, too. I can see that he's done a lot of processing about poly, and it's all starting to feel a lot more concrete. That is, he is seeing what a poly situation actually means for us, and what me having a girlfriend entails to him, as well. He's not big on hypothesising in general and knows nobody with experience of poly, so there is a lot of things he is feeling and thinking about only now that poly has started to become more concrete. Therefore, much of the stuff he shared with me yesterday is very propably almost as new to him as it is for me. But he is now thinking about the future and about what it is that he wants or needs, and some boundaries are starting to take shape around that.
I know there are some conflicting wants. There may be even somewhat conflicting needs, although I feel hopeful that with creative thinking we'll be able to find a situation where everybody can be satisfied and happy even if they aren't getting everything they want. It is rare, though, in life generally to get everything you want, although you can maximise it by thinking outside the box(es). So poly isn't really special in that respect.
Anyway, it's good that Alec is thinking and communicating about stuff. It's good that he is forming boundaries and being clear about them, even when he suspects I won't be too happy about them. It's good that he tells me how he feels and what he wants, even if those things make him feel ashamed or guilty. It's good that he's sharing his feelings without any wish to control me, i.e. without wanting me to change my behaviour based on them (while still obviously expecting me to care about them and take them into consideration - I think there is a huge difference). It's good that what he expresses as his wants and needs seem to be his genuine wants and needs coming from within himself and NOT from any feelings of jealousy or competition or possession or selfishness.
None of us have any poly experience, Alec doesn't know anybody poly or even open, and all of his friends and family have a very monogamous mindset. Because of all of this, I feel that there are a lot of potential pitfalls, in which it would be easy to fall and which could blow the whole thing up. But all the good stuff I wrote above makes me feel safe. It makes me feel that we are doing poly in a healthy way.
Last week Mya described me as a patient person. I've never really thought of myself that way. But when we talked about it, and the more I think about it, the more it starts to sound like it's true. It may be that I've always been quite patient but I think I've become better at it.
Today, I'm thinking about patience in relation to communication. I think the bit of reading I've done about poly and the importance of communication has had a major effect. Somehow, I'm becoming a very good listener. I think it comes from realising how important it is to listen. But I think there is some baggage I've left behind, and the concept of boundaries has been really helpful. For example, if Alec tells me about some negative feelings he has, I only take it as a statement of a fact. I listen and interpret it as it is meant: that he has feelings. I no longer take it to mean that he's blaming me, or attempting to control me, or that it is something he wants me to fix. And I no longer feel guilty. Wow. It's taken me seven years to get rid of that shit.
Looking back, first I always felt guilty and tried to please him (as in do as I thought he wanted me to). After that I started to get angry about the feelings of guilt, and at him for "making me feel guilty". After that I started to doubt whether he was in actuality trying to make me feel guilty and control me or whether the guilt was purely my own reaction to what he was saying. In most recent years, I haven't believed in him trying to make me feel guilty anymore, but I've still tried to fix stuff and I haven't been good at making boundaries. But now. I can actually have a conversation and listen to him and sympathise to his feelings. And not feel guilt or feel that I have to change something or automatically believe that his negative feelings come from something I must have done wrong.
Wow. What a load of crap it is that parents are able to install into us as our way of relating with other people! :eek:
nycindie
09-28-2011, 04:56 AM
Wow. What a load of crap it is that parents are able to install into us as our way of relating with other people!
Eh, don't be too hard on them. They only passed along what they themselves were taught. Plus, our peers growing up, and incidents from early childhood play a huge part in how human beings learn to relate to others. By the time a kid is about seven years old, it's pretty much fully baked with regard to having strategies for life. Freaky, isn't it?
AnnabelMore
09-28-2011, 05:21 AM
Hey Rory, I agree with you, it sounds.like the communication skills in your relationship are really strong, kudos. :)
I have to admit, I'm very curious -- "But he is now thinking about the future and about what it is that he wants or needs, and some boundaries are starting to take shape around that." -- are you up to sharing any details on this?
Eh, don't be too hard on them. They only passed along what they themselves were taught.
Thanks for writing nycindie. :) Yeah, I know what you mean and agree with you. And I didn't mean to say that it's intentional, I know for a fact it isn't. I just feel that I've done a lot of work in reprogramming myself out of some stuff, and still it's sometimes surprising when I notice how much work there is.
Hey Rory, I agree with you, it sounds.like the communication skills in your relationship are really strong, kudos. :)
I have to admit, I'm very curious -- "But he is now thinking about the future and about what it is that he wants or needs, and some boundaries are starting to take shape around that." -- are you up to sharing any details on this?
Hi Annabel, thanks for writing! :) I hadn't had time to communicate the new things to Mya when I was last writing so I didn't go to much detail, but I'm happy to write some more about that now.
First we were discussing about how the time-sharing is going to work now that Mya will be staying here for a week once a month. Alec is working long days and he was worried that on those weeks he won't see any of me if I'll be sleeping the most nights with Mya. But I explained it to him as I had thought to arrange it, so that I will spend a substantial part of the evening alone with the one of them I'm not sleeping with. I definitely want to have some alone time with both of them every day (and I think they want that too), and I don't think it will be too hard to arrange. Alec felt a bit weird that Mya will be visiting us but I won't keep her company all the time. But the excact difference with this situation is that Mya is only sort of 'visiting' and sort of living here for the week. It's not supposed to be a special occasion but more like everyday life, and she won't be expecting for me to keep her company all the time just as she wouldn't expect it if we were all living together. I think Alec understands that point of view a bit better now, and I think the 'oddness' factor will subside with time. We settled that on the weeks Mya visits I'll be sleeping every third night with Alec and the rest with Mya, i.e. two and five nights. On one hand, he would have hoped for a more equal sharing but, on the other, he does completely understand that me and Mya need to take more time together when she visits cause it'll be three weeks then until we'll see each other again.
That got us talking about what the situation will be like once all of us are living in the same city. I still have three years left in my studies here before we are planning that. Alec has some fears/worries about that, some more and some less realistic. He has no problems with me spending time with Mya, and is happy for me for the love I've found in her. But he's worried about having enough time with me. For one, he expressed fear that I'll spend more of my time with Mya than him since that's what I do when she visits. He does realise himself, though, that this fear is irrational, and that the reason for the unequal time-sharing is the excact fact that we are not living near each other. Therefore I would, for example, obviously sleep more than every third night with him if we were all living very close to each other. I'm glad he expressed that fear, though, since I was able to reassure him about that.
What he's mostly wondering, though, is how much time I'll have for him in the new situation, how much is going to change, and what are his needs in regards to that. One example Alec gave was that I would be living with him for two days, then gone for two, then again he'll see me for a couple and then away again, etc. He said he's not ready for that kind of scenario, and doesn't think he'll ever be, so there is clearly a boundary there. But that's not really what I want either. I don't want two separate relationships, and I definitely don't think it would work for me to compartmentalise my life like that. Rather, I would like to spend a lot of time with both Mya and Alec being present, whether it's group time with all four of us or with the three of us hanging out at home or going somewhere, whatever. The point is that I don't need to divide my time to either one but I'll be able to share much of it with both of them. Obviously all of us need couple-time, too, but it's still a different picture. Still, these things are something we need to get back to, and I guess we won't get the whole picture until we are actually living in the same city. But Alec is worried that we'll have problems arising in the future with incompatible needs. I'm pretty optimistic that we'll be able to find a solution that will feel good to all four people involved.
We also talked about the possibility of living in a poly household, and Alec has some boundaries about that (as I'm sure I do, too, I just don't know yet where they lie). Alec said he doesn't see himself wanting to ever live together in a household with all four of us. We talked about some hypothetical situations, and it seems that he could see himself living with a metamour, but not with a metamour's partner, no matter who they are. Also, he feels that 4 adults living in the same household would just be too much for him. This does put some limitations to the possibilities in the future. But if it's something he doesn't feel comfortable with, I will respect that. I'm not sure at this point if I would've wanted to live together with all four of us at some point (propably), but I know that it's not a need for me. There are plenty of other arrangements where I can share my everyday life with my loves, and I'm sure I can be happy with any of those. What I do want is to live close, and be able to see both of them every day. Although, I don't need that either (couldn't really be in an LDR if I did, and obviously we'll have other important commitments and want to travel separetely, etc.), but it's definitely among my priorities.
AnnabelMore
09-29-2011, 03:13 AM
Interesting! Yeah, it sounds to me like this is all important stuff but also stuff that can be worked out.
I hope I'm not getting too personal here, but I'm curious... it would seem that both you and Mya are interested in both men and women. Has there ever been any attraction by one of you to the other's husband? That could certainly be a factor in any potentially future group living situation.
I hope I'm not getting too personal here, but I'm curious... it would seem that both you and Mya are interested in both men and women. Has there ever been any attraction by one of you to the other's husband? That could certainly be a factor in any potentially future group living situation.
I think I can answer this one with these earlier quotes from me and rory:
I've been thinking about my bisexuality lately. I think the best way to describe my preferences would be that I like mostly "feminine features" in a personality, but sometimes you can find them in a man as well. In a way I feel that both my partners are quite feminine, but not too much.
I've experienced some major sexuality changes in recent years and nowadays I think the same goes generally for men: while I can find one hot I don't actually want to have sex with him. Alec is an exception to that "rule".
So, JJ is a man, period, and Alec is quite a manly man. Obviously anything's possible but I doubt anything romantic will happen with me and Alec or rory and JJ even though we all like each other. :)
nycindie
09-30-2011, 01:54 AM
We also talked about the possibility of living in a poly household, and Alec has some boundaries about that (as I'm sure I do, too, I just don't know yet where they lie). Alec said he doesn't see himself wanting to ever live together in a household with all four of us. We talked about some hypothetical situations, and it seems that he could see himself living with a metamour, but not with a metamour's partner, no matter who they are. Also, he feels that 4 adults living in the same household would just be too much for him.
Didn't one of you start a thread a while back looking for feedback on moving in together?
Just my initial opinion, which really means nothing, but I think the part I bolded above is a bit strange, don't you? I mean, why does he feel that way, do you know? It just strikes me as a little odd that a metamour could move in but not the metamour's partner. What if your metamour's partner was also a woman? Would he be okay with another woman moving in? Does having another guy around seem threatening to him in some way? Hasn't he ever had a male roommate?
Sorry for so many questions -- I'm just curious!
I think, if moving in together is something you would eventually want, then a nice goal might be to try it for a vacation sometime in the near future. See if all four of you can swing renting a house or villa for two or three weeks somewhere, so everyone can see what it's like to live, cook, shop, and play together. That would be so cool!
Annabel, I agree with you that all of the stuff is something that can be worked out. :) The metamour relationships are all platonic. The things Mya quoted are factors in why I believe it will also stay that way.
Didn't one of you start a thread a while back looking for feedback on moving in together?
Hmm, I don't think so... :confused: I think it was somebody else, since the possibility of co-habitation has been so far in the future for us, anyway. :)
Neither me or Alec have ever lived with roommates. I think the thought of living with another man feels weird to him. But we talked about hypothetical situations, and I asked him whether he would feel comfortable living with, say, Mya's girlfriend (if she had one), and he said he wouldn't want that either. From what I understand, it's about closeness. I guess he would feel like he has a closer relationship to a metamour because he loves me and I love her. So it wouldn't feel so weird living with somebody I love so much. But with metamour's partner there isn't a link that close: that is a person who is loved by a person that I love. He relates to my feelings in a different way, I guess, because he loves me and thinks of me as family, and he would be able to feel that a person I love is his family, too. With a metamour's partner it's different: while Alec can understand that they are somebody she loves, he can't feel the connection in the same way.
Thank you for that question, Nycindie, I hadn't really had time to think about what might be behind it. I knew it was about the closeness, because I asked him, and he also gave an example that his best friend from childhood is the only friend he has he could imagine living with. I think I understand Alec a bit better now that I've thought about this more. :)
We've had a few weekends of the kind of time you describe when we've visited each other, and it's been a lot of fun. However, all the people who aren't romantically involved are still getting to know each other, so I think it would be too soon for us to go to that kind of a trip together yet. I think it's best to keep on doing what we've been doing previously: to spend time in a group when that happens naturally. I feel it's good to take things slow and get used to the whole situation, so that it doesn't feel overwhelming. There's still three years until we'll be living in the same city, and I think by then everybody will know each other pretty well and poly won't feel as new and odd as it does now when it's only been six months. All of that is good because we'll be obviously seeing a lot more of each other, but also all of us will have our own spaces and own lifes in the same place, so that they are free to choose how to spend time and who to spend it with. I think it's important that nobody feels pressured. I guess I see how often it can intensify conflict and blow things up when things move fast. I rather put a lot of time in building the base for poly, particularly since it's new to all of us, so that by the time it's done it won't be very much affected by any conflicts there may be.
I'm now far away - and many time zones apart - from rory and it's really hard to communicate. She wrote me all that stuff before she wrote it here. I can tell you it wasn't easy reading it. I didn't sleep well in two nights, because I wasn't able to talk to her. I wrote a reply but it was very emotional, just a burst of negative feelings. When we finally got to talk via skype, it was intense. There were some misunderstandings to be cleared but mostly we talked about my message where I wrote stuff I felt and rory read some of them as accusations so there was a lot to deal with.
I just felt so disappointed. Living together all four of us was my big dream. I know it was bigger for me than it was for anyone else. And now that dream is crushed and it hurts like hell. Even though I can intellectually understand Alec's point of view, it makes me really sad that he doesn't want to live with JJ and can't imagine thinking him as family.
AnnabelMore
10-02-2011, 03:09 AM
Hey Mya,
I'm not saying you should base your life on the hope that Alec's feelings might change, but... they might change. Time and closeness can open doors where people didn't even know there were doors to be opened. This is how he feels now, but could he even have imagined this situation at all five years ago (maybe not or maybe so, but you get my point)?
If you know you can't be happy without this dream, that's one thing. But if you think you can be, and are willing to set it aside for now, that doesn't mean the dream can never be reconsidered.
BlackUnicorn
10-02-2011, 06:59 AM
I just felt so disappointed. Living together all four of us was my big dream. I know it was bigger for me than it was for anyone else. And now that dream is crushed and it hurts like hell. Even though I can intellectually understand Alec's point of view, it makes me really sad that he doesn't want to live with JJ and can't imagine thinking him as family.
There's going to be some tough loving coming your way now, and I do not mean ill, but what would have been there for Alec in your dream scenario? Logistically it would have been a dream come true for you and probably rory as well. But the two of you would live with your partners and metamour, whereas Alec and JJ would end up living with a partner, a metamour and a parametamour (?), just like Alec pointed out to rory. It is difficult for you to imagine why Alec would not be able to consider JJ family, because all three mean so much to you, but it's not the same for Alec, and likely never will be. Would a girlfriend of Alec's be welcome to live with you too? Would you want to share your everyday life, your bathroom, your breakfast, your bills with a woman whom you have nothing in common with except that they love a man whom your partner also loves? A woman you couldn't choose, in a way?
Annabel: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I can be happy without that dream coming true. And yes, his feelings can change as well, who knows. But he just said it so firmly, like he was so sure, so I wouldn't put much hope to it.. The thing is, rory and JJ weren't sure about it either but they were willing to see how things progress. How deep the relationships would be etc. But yeah, I guess you can never be sure.
BlackUnicorn: Well, that's where me and Alec are different. If I was in his position, I could live with his girlfriend if I liked her as a person. I've lived with roommates before and I like it. So has JJ. Alec and rory haven't so they don't know what that's like. They wouldn't necessary like it, many people would feel weird living with anyone else than the ones they love. So like I said, I can understand it, but it still makes me sad. And you can't choose a metamour either, so I don't see the difference there.
nycindie
10-03-2011, 03:07 AM
There are more than one way to live as a poly family. There's also the option of buying property together and having two houses on it, where each couple has their own space, with shared communal space (maybe even in a separate building) for all of you. Or simply living very close to each other. Since you all know it will be a few years before anything like that happens, anyway, you can fantasize about all kinds of scenarios, and when an opportunity comes along, you will know if it feels right. Your relationships, even between the metamours, will deepen. So, don't lose hope or fret now; there's so much possibility you could never even dream of!
^We're sort of hoping to find apartments in the same building right next to each other, once we move to the same city. We'll see how realistic that is, but one can always hope. :p However, after living 500 to 2000 kilometers apart, I'm thinking the same city will be great in itself...
--
I did some academic reading about poly (and other non-monogamy) yesterday. It's not something I can use for my studies at the moment, unless I get REALLY lucky in an essay topic. :D But I'm definitely interested in the research that has been done. I found a great article which basically summarised all that had been done around the topic. There's been quite a bit in the last decade, but there is certainly a lot of ground to cover. It's definitely an area for consideration once I start choosing my dissertation topic. That'll be few years still, so right now I'm reading stuff for own interest. There is a recently written book "Understanding non-monogamies", of which I sent a request to the University Library, we'll see if they can get it since they don't have it at the moment.
Me and Mya have talked in skype for maybe 30 minutes in the last two weeks since she's been travelling. All other contact has been via text. I really miss her a lot. :( Well, it'll only be a week 'til she'll come here, and maybe we'll be able to get some skype time before then, too. I feel really disconnected at the moment. I'm not sure if I should try to explain what that feels like, if others get that feeling? There is a positive note to make, though. Even as I feel disconnected, it doesn't make me feel as uneasy as it did some months ago, even though we've now spent a much longer time not able to talk than we've ever had before. I sure miss her, but I guess the difference comes from the fact that I feel more stable and secure in our relationship. I know, both rationally and emotionally, that even though I'm feeling disconnected, she's not going anywhere. So the disconnection is in no way threatening, it's just uncomfortable. I can ride it out, be patient and reconnect once we have the chance. :)
I have some poly-talk scheduled for the weekend with Alec. Plus some other talk, too, as well as a lot of hanging out and enjoying each other's company. We've both been quite busy with our own stuff last week, so we haven't really seen much of each other. He's basically been home awake for 3 hours each day before going to bed. We're thinking of getting a car once he gets his first pay, because he now spends almost 4 hours each day getting to work and back and by car it'll only take two.
Have a nice weekend you all! :)
Interesting incident yesterday!
Me and Alec had gone to bed (falling asleep) when Mya called. I had called her earlier that day because I was feeling sad about stuff going on with my father. She called to see if I was feeling better. I really appreciated her concern. <3 And it was pretty early in the evening, she had no way of knowing we were already in bed.
Anyway, we talked for a little while, and Mya said "I love you, good night" and I just responded "good night" and we hung up. That made strange feelings come up to me. I would have felt more natural to tell her "I love you too" at that moment, but I felt too self-concious so I didn't. But then I felt like I was "hiding something" by not saying it.
I have told Alec that I love Mya; he knows and is fine with it. I'm not sure if he's ever heard me say it to Mya (I can't remember if there's been that kind of a situation). I'm not careful with it or anything, and I doubt it'll be a very big deal for him to hear that (just odd as are many poly things). Actually, I'm pretty sure I would've said it if it hadn't been that I was in bed so close to Alec and everything was so quiet around... It just felt weird to say it. But it felt just as weird then that I didn't.
We haven't really discussed the topic with Alec, though. Don't know if we should. On one hand, I know many people make agreements with their partners about this kind of thing, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. On the other hand, I think my/our style is just somewhat different. I make agreements with a partner about things that directly concern him/her and our relationship; but not really about stuff that has to do with my relationship with my other partner. For example, I negotiate with both Mya and Alec about the sleeping arrangements when Mya comes to visit us; but when I make plans to go and visit Mya I merely inform Alec about it.
I guess I feel this is a similar kind of thing in that it really only concerns me and Mya and our relationship. However, I'm sure it will (or does, if he's heard it at some occasion) feel weird for Alec to hear me say "I love you" to another person, and I'd like to somehow acknowledge that fact. Now that I think about it, I don't think it's very different from PDAs. When the three of us first hung out, it felt pretty weird to touch either one of them in front of the other. I think the first times me and Mya kissed it was so that Alec was aware of it happening and could have seen us if he had wanted to, but it wasn't right in front of him. It didn't take a lot of time for everything to start feeling completely natural. I think that's how I'd like to handle saying "I love you" also. I'd like to say it occasionally in situations in which I know Alec can hear me, but I'm not in a really intimate situation with him (like I was yesterday). After I know he's heard it a few times I'm sure it'll feel comfortable to do it in any situation.
SNeacail
10-11-2011, 08:36 PM
We haven't really discussed the topic with Alec, though. Don't know if we should.
How is this a "we" discussion? It should be a discussion between you and Alec. Stop speculating and making assumptions on his behalf, have the discussion directly. What is he comfortable with? What does he think would freak him out? From everything you have posted here, I would guess that it's not going to be a big deal.
nycindie
10-12-2011, 05:17 AM
We haven't really discussed the topic with Alec, though. Don't know if we should. If you mean that you wonder if you and Mya would approach Alec and ask if it's okay for you to tell each other "I love you," I think that would be weirder than anything else! :p
On one hand, I know many people make agreements with their partners about this kind of thing, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. On the other hand, I think my/our style is just somewhat different. I make agreements with a partner about things that directly concern him/her and our relationship; but not really about stuff that has to do with my relationship with my other partner.
I think this is as it should be. Personally, I would not be involved with anyone whose partner determines what or how my relationship with that person is. You are doing well to honor each relationship you have, individually, for what it is and how you want it to go. I think that's great.
I also think you're making too much of this issue. It probably just hit you in the moment that he's never heard you say that to her before -- but maybe he has! -- and you became self-conscious and are still holding onto that a bit. This is a no biggie, I'm sure, especially since you say that he is aware of your feelings for her.
Breathe, relax!
Oh wow, I was being unclear! :eek: When I wrote "maybe we should discuss" I meant me and Alec only. I understand how that would sound confusing, sorry about that. The mental image of all three of us having a conversation about this is making me laugh. :D
Thanks for your comments SNeacail and Nycindie! :)
SNeacail, that's something I really try to avoid, making assumptions. Although, maybe it's more that I do make assumptions, but I don't expect to always be right with them. What I mean is that when I come to think about something poly-related (say, whether Alec wants to sleep in our bedroom or in the living room when Mya comes to visit) I usually already have a pretty good idea what the answer will be but when it's something that concerns him I obviously still ask him. Does that make sense? :)
However, now that I think about it, I don't think I need to have a discussion with Alec about this particular thing since it doesn't really fall into that category. I'm pretty certain in my assumption that he won't freak out. :p But even if that did happen, it's not something I should go out of my way to avoid. Rather, in that case it would be good for both me and Alec to know that hearing me express my love for somebody else is something that raises very strong feelings for him. Obviously, I want to be sensitive to him and his feelings, but I do think they need to be faced. This is actually something in him that I'm really proud of and grateful for, that he is willing to do that.
I agree with you Nycindie that this really wasn't any big deal. I'm not panicing or anything, I just like to think and analyse stuff, and was wondering why I acted the way I did (and why it made me feel uneasy). I also completely agree with you here
I think this is as it should be. Personally, I would not be involved with anyone whose partner determines what or how my relationship with that person is. You are doing well to honor each relationship you have, individually, for what it is and how you want it to go. I think that's great.
It's nice that you understood what I mean by writing that. :) I think it's one of those things different people do really differently in their relationships (in mono and poly): some people make plans individually about how they want to spend their time, others think it's a given that you ask your partner first. I don't think there's anything wrong with the second way (and it may sometimes be necessary even, e.g. if you have kids). But I feel very strongly that the first way suits me best. It's particularly important for me when I'm making my plans: if I needed to ask, I would feel like my personal freedom and independence were under a threat. But it does tend to make me crazy to try to make plans with a person who needs to check their partner first, so I doubt I could ever be in a relationship with somebody who had that kind of arrangement with (one of) their other partner(s).
I'm going to see rory tomorrow! Yey!! :) I'm feeling quite disconnected at the moment so I'm very happy to see her and reconnect. I've been travelling for 3 weeks now and it's been great but the downside is, like I wrote before, that we couldn't communicate a lot. At the moment I'm already in the same country as rory, but I'm now visiting one of my friends in a different city. Before this I spent several days in the very city we're all going to move someday. I have many friends there and it was so nice to see them and also just enjoy the city. Sometimes I feel I have 3 loves in my life, rory, JJ and this city. <3
Before the trip JJ told me that he might be having feelings for someone. He stressed the word 'might', like he really wasn't sure what it is he's feeling. I'm so excited for him! Just the fact that he is (or might be) having a crush makes me so happy for him. That is a nice feeling. :) The downside is that she's not really available for a relationship at the moment, but who knows what will happen in the future.
There's just one thing about this situation that makes me worried. Now that I know he might develop feelings for other people (in his own words he hasn't had them before during our relationship), I'm worried he'll find someone in our current home town. And I really want to move to the city I've been talking about, no matter what. So if he did, then he would have to fly back and forward later like I do now. :eek: The neverending cycle of LDR's.. I know, nothing's happened yet and might never happen so I'm worrying for nothing really. :rolleyes: It's just a thought I had and wanted to share.
Mya is coming today!!! Oh my god I am SO happy to see her! :) :) These last three weeks did feel kinda long since we couldn't really talk; and we have a ton of catching up to do. :p
There's something positive the e-mailing with my dad brought up, too. He's so miserable in his life (which I'm sad about but there seriously isn't anything I can do, and he won't do anything about it [like get a divorce]) that every time I talk to him it reminds me how very happy I am in mine... I don't know if that sounds awful, like I'm reveling in his sadness.. But really what I try to say is.. I've lived there, and I was just as miserable. But look at how far I've come. :) I'm really, truly happy, and I feel that my happiness increases every day. I'm lucky to have all the things that I do, but a huge part of it is because I make myself happy. I concentrate on the things in my life, which I have and like, and not on those I don't. And I make choices that make me happy, even if they are scary and big and out of mainstream. (Disclaimer, though I doubt I need it on this forum: some people can become happy with choices which are mainstream, and more power to them, but I am not one of them.) And I feel and grow and enjoy the ride. :)
I was thinking in the morning that I´ll post about how I make myself CRAZY with being an idiot and stressing about both my partners having fun all the time. I know it's idiotic, because people are perfectly happy and satisfied in their everyday life without it being fucking rainbows and sunshine and puppies and fireworks every damn minute. Both Alec and Mya are having a good time, it's just me who is constantly worried, as if I were responsible for it or could do something about it anyway.
But right now I'm sitting on the computer, eating breakfast, and my loves are racing against each other on XBOX and laughing and enjoying themselves. And the stress is fading and I'm relaxed and happy and sooo in love. They are such amazing people... <3 <3 :)
It's been great here with rory (and Alec of course). :) It was amazing to see her! It has also been intense. We've talked a lot about the things we weren't able to before, had a huge amount of catching up to do. At times it has also been quite exhausting. Well, totally worth it anyway. :)
This first week that I'm spending at their place is a bit weird for all of us I guess. But of course it takes time for three people to get used to each others habits and for me also to rory and Alec's household. They have an excellent apartment though! I mean it's possible for us to take our own space and for rory to spend time with both me and Alec separately. Obviously we all hang out as a group as well. I've been happy with the time divide, I feel like I've gotten good amount of rory's time and we've spent good amount of time all together. And I've also gotten some skype time with JJ.
There's also been one bit of bad news. This whole traveling around has made me more broke than I thought. And I'm not getting paid yet since I just started my freelance job. So we talked about it and came to the conclusion that instead of flying to rory twice more this year (November and December, like we had planned), I'll only fly once at the end of November. :( But there's no point in spending money when you really couldn't afford it, so I guess we'll just have to deal with it. Once I start getting paid it's going to be easier and hopefully we'll reach that "every fourth week" plan from next year onwards.
Oh, and I got an early birthday present from rory! It was a really really good present. :) I meditate and I have a zafu for that at home. So she gave me one to be used here, too, because they're too big to be taking with me when I come here. :) She knows me so well and knows what's important for me. I love the present and I really love rory. <3
I'd like to write here; to get some clarity. I have so many thoughts, and I'm feeling so many things, it feels like a mess. I'll try to express something.
First, I'll describe our daily routine for a bit. Mya's been here for 4 days now; on Sunday all three of us hung out and went shopping together, but the other three I've mostly spent alone with Mya. This is since Alec has been working, and me and Mya have been able to do only little work/studying. Today's the first day I'm spending at the Uni this week. Basically, of the time awake, me and Mya have spent around 7-11 hours alone together on each of the three days; a few hours of all three together (cooking, eating, etc.) and I've spent 1-2 hours alone with Alec. I've slept with Mya 3 nights and one with Alec.
You can see the largest issue right there: I have had no alone time. It is really important need for me in everyday life, but it is magnified by the fact that all the time spent in any setting (me with Mya, me with Alec, or me with Mya and Alec) is seriously intense. I have absolutely nobody to blame but myself for the lack of alone time; I haven't wanted to take it since I'm so exited to see Mya after spending three weeks apart. But I'm starting to feel exhausted, big time. I'm thinking so much, and feeling so much, even in the course of one day; mostly positive, but some negative, too. I think I would need time to balance it out by just relaxing and thinking non-poly-related things, or rather just turning my brain off for a while by watching dvds or something. Otherwise, I start to feel really tired. Also, it makes me loose perspective for a bit, so that every feeling (whether mine or somebody else's) starts to magnify and becomes hard to handle.
Another thing I notice when I look at how the time is spent is that maybe that could be balanced better. The goal is to balance, on one hand, being fair and taking into account everybody's needs (of which I seem to have neglected my own) and, on the other, to having somewhat more time with Mya now that she is here. Originally I imagined that Mya and I would both have quite a bit of work and studying, and that would take up more time than it has, so that we would only be able to have maybe 2-3 hours alone during the day. So it made sense that I would sleep two thirds of the nights with her and one third with Alec, so that we would be able to have quality time in the evening, too. But with the time taken out of studying and work, we've had a lot of alone time, whilst Alec and I have had quite a little. So I don't know if it would be fair to adjust the sleeping schedules.. Then again, things are different both today (when I'm at Uni for the whole day) and tomorrow (when Mya will leave to meet her friend around 11, and I'll have some time to myself and for studying). Friday I'll spend the whole day with Mya again, but she leaves on Saturday morning, so I'll then have the whole weekend to spend with Alec.
I'm getting better at thinking about things more in terms of needs and less in terms of fairness, but I do find it important to strive for equal consideration of wants. Sometimes it's hard, though, to define what is fair...
We agreed today that rory is going to spend the next two nights with Alec, for several reasons, one of which is written above. I feel ok about it. We've had a lot of quality time together so it's fine not to have it as much during these couple of days, keeping in mind that we'll spend the whole Friday together.
For me it's sometimes difficult to put myself in someone else's shoes in this situation of ours. The possible problems are so different for all four of us: JJ has to spend time alone / apart from me. Alec has to deal with having me around a lot and not being able to spend as much time alone with rory as before. Rory has to balance time between me and Alec and like she just wrote, then she doesn't get enough time for herself. And me, I sometimes feel that the time rory isn't spending with me (although she has spent a lot) is somehow away from JJ. I mean, he's used to me being away at times and isn't really complaining, but sometimes I feel that if I'm not spending time with her, why am I even here, when I could be home with JJ.
That is the basic problem of not living in the same city. I'm sure things will even out when time passes. I won't be feeling like this, but hopefully more like this is my other home and we divide time like we think is best. I'll have to just accept that I'll be without JJ when I'm here and forget about the time "wasted" that I'm spending alone.
Then I have some news regarding this:
I think I've lost a friend because of being in a poly relationship. :( She wasn't a very close friend anyway, so it's not too bad. But I do feel sad that this is something that makes someone disappear from my life. She is a former coworker of mine, from the time when I was working abroad. We kept writing each other every once in a while after I moved away from that country. Nothing really deep though, just keeping up with what's happening in each other's lives. Well, when I wrote her to tell her about this new situation of mine, she never replied. She didn't even answer my questions about her life. I waited over a month and wrote her again, this time not mentioning rory or anything about poly. I just asked how she was doing etc. And she didn't reply to that one either. :( This was about two weeks ago so I guess that's it then, I give up.
This is the friend rory was referring to in her post, the one I'm seeing tomorrow! :) So I didn't lose her after all and what's even more amazing is that she's now living in the same city as rory. :eek: She has just moved here like a couple of months ago or something. What a coincidence!
I'll add some more information about the sleeping arrangement. I did some thinking after I posted and realised that I actually had a feeling that I wanted to sleep with Alec, and that the biggest motivation for it wasn't so much the fairness issue but the fact that I would have a longer night's sleep because he goes to bed a few hours earlier. I was feeling really tired, so more sleep was a good thing. Yesterday wasn't as intense emotionally, so today I'm feeling less tired. Also, right now I'm at home alone. I'll need to do some studying soon, but it's still good.
I wanted to write something about the (negative) emotions and the work we face. I'll focus on the three of us, since I have the most knowledge of our situations, Mya can add about JJ if she wishes to. :) As Mya said, the positions are quite different for all four of us. She wrote about the fact that she feels like she's "sacrificing" (for the lack of a better term) time from JJ when she's here, particularly if we're not spending the time here as "effectively" as possible. Rationally she doesn't think that, but the emotions are different. There have also been some worries about the future. She can write more about her side of things if she feels like it.
For me, most emotions relate to "being enough", that is, meeting the needs of both of my partners when the both of them are here. I do think I'm pretty good at taking both of them into account. What I need to work on is being concious of my own needs, making boundaries, and not letting others or myself violate them. Particularly the first part; I often don't realise I need something until it becomes a bigger issue than it needs to be. Earlier I also wrote about wanting everybody to have a good time, but that anxiety has passed altogether. I think it will still come up from time to time (might be more again when all four of us hang out), but for now it doesn't look like too big an issue.
The feelings that poly brings up for Alec, and which he has expressed to me, have been pretty similar from the beginning: the issues are the same, but there is definitely progress in terms of the intensity, and it seems also in terms of frequency (that is, it seems he has negative feelings for a smaller proportion of time than before, but I think that can be assessed better when more time has passed, and it's hard for me to tell because obviously I don't know all that goes on in his head). Mostly Alec's negative feelings relate to self-esteem. Low self-esteem is something that has been an issue for him for the whole seven-and-a-half years of my relationship with him, but in which there has also been huge improvement during that time. Obviously it's a very long time, but he is a completely different person from who he was in the beginning. Anyway, there still remains work to be done, and poly is good at bringing these things to the surface. Sometimes he has fears that I'll prefer Mya, but these he can rationally see as unrealistic himself, so it doesn't seem like it's too hard for him to get over them with a bit of reassurance. More often it's just that he feels like he's "too much" when we spend time as a group, whether it's the three or the four of us. This feeling is pretty frequent, I'd say it surfaces about every other or every third day at some point, but it usually doesn't last for the whole day but maybe for a couple of hours. I think the only thing that'll make changes in this is him working on his self-esteem, and also possibly time.
It makes Alec both happy and sad to see me in NRE with Mya: on one hand he's genuinely happy for me, and feels compersion for my happiness, on the other, he feels sad that he and I can't have that. Also, Alec has said before that it feels weird to sleep alone when I'm home, and he misses me a bit. But he hasn't mentioned those things very much this time (more when Mya visited us in the summer), so it actually may have subsided a little (otherwise I think he would've mentioned it more). And there's still a bit of poly-related oddness for him, which is about the fact that, as he says, "he doesn't want to make Mya feel bad by hugging/kissing me in front of her". This resulted in him avoiding my attempts to touch him, which lead to me feeling bad. However, we had a discussion about this a few days ago: first, I assured him that (as far as I know) Mya doesn't feel bad in a situation like that, and, secondly, I explained to him that even if she does it's not "him making her feel bad" but her own feelings which she needs to work through and not something he should try to avoid. To this he responded that he'll make an attempt to hug me even if it feels strange to him. And yesterday we did hug quite a many times during a few hours while Mya was in the same room, so there were instant steps on that front. :)
Wow. There's quite a bit, when you start to write stuff down (and I may have forgotten something). What I'm glad about is that all four of us, as far as I can tell, do their best to own their own feelings. Also, I'm really happy about all the communication that's happening. I think many of the issues are such that time will in itself make them easier, like the NRE effects, and everything that requires getting used to (that is, everything). Poly is quite difficult in that it brings up a lot of emotional issues, which may be big or small, and to the solving of which there are no guarantees. I guess you just have to remember that a lot of people have gone through similar things (and worse), be patient, and have trust in each person's motivation and ability to work through their own issues. There comes some fear of uncertainty with that, but there's also so much to gain, and so much to enjoy during the ride, and the knowledge that whatever the end will be, it will be for the best for everybody. :)
When writing about expressing love to Mya in front of Alec, I touched a bit on making agreements, and then later some more; and I've been pondering making agreements ever since. I see it here on the forum sometimes that while working at either opening up, or towards a poly relationship, people in the relationship make a temporary agreement about some issue. For example, there can be an agreement that no sex will happen until a year has passed, or that there will be no PDAs for the first six months of the newer relationship. The aim of this is to give time to the person who is dealing with jealousy (or other uncomfortable feelings) time to process.
I see that for some people this approach works very well, and some have used it to build wonderfully successfull poly relationships.:) I think sometimes it's also a good tool to use for slowing down if the whole thing is moving too fast, for example due to NRE. In no way do I find a request for time unreasonable, particularly if it is motivated by sincere will to work on things. Hypothetically I can also imagine a situation where I might do so: for example if I was starting a relationship with somebody who was very actively dating, I might ask that she not look for new connections for a small while until we'd had time to establish our relationship.
However, because I'm not against the approach in theory, I've been thinking about why I would feel disinclided to consider it as an option in my relationship with Alec, even if there was a single specific thing bringing up intense negative emotions to him. It's because I know him, and how he processes things. I think for that approach to work, i.e. to be effective in giving time for processing, I think the person needs to have a specific way of processing things. They need to actively think about the issue in question, even when it's not topical/actual, and make progress with it. The way Alec processes things is different: he actively processes things mostly when they are concretely happening. Like in our situation, when Mya and I are in an LDR, Alec mostly thinks about poly things when me and him are spending time with Mya or with Mya and JJ, and not so much at other times. I think there's a lot going on, especially unconciously, in between the times of active processing. But really the progress he makes comes in steps when the issue is present. This is why I don't think it would work for us to make a certain thing temporarily off limits, even if there were such a thing that raised very negative feelings. I think that as long as it were off limits, there would be very little or no process being made in terms of it. I think for a person with a processing style like that of Alec's, the only way to make progress is to concretely face the fears/discomforts and work through them. Therefore, I wouldn't easily consider temporary boundaries on any aspect important to my relationship with Mya. Rather, I would (and do) give Alec all the support I can, and attempt to be considerate towards his feelings while still not enabling him to avoid them all together.
AnnabelMore
10-20-2011, 01:58 PM
Kudos on the hard work that all of you are doing!
A thought... have you guys considered the three of you -- M, R, and A -- occasionally sharing a bed? You certainly needn't do anything sexual, but it would solve the problem of splitting up nights. I slept platonically with a friend just the other night because she was crashing at my place for the evening and my bed is more comfortable than our couch.
Is the bed too small, would it bring up jealousy issues, or is there another reason not to just have Mya on one side of you and Alec on the other, at least now and then? One problem I can think of would be if she and he had very different sleeping schedules or styles. It also wouldn't work if you absolutely wanted to keep the possibility of sexual contact open.
I, personally, always found it difficult to fall asleep between Gia and Eric because of feeling like I shouldn't toss and turn too much when there was so little extra room, but I also found it really pleasant at the same time... I felt very warm and content sandwiched in the middle of two people I loved.
On an unrelated note, it would be really cool if either Alec or JJ wanted to pop on here now and them as "guest bloggers". :)
Thanks for the comment, Annabel! :)
A thought... have you guys considered the three of you -- M, R, and A -- occasionally sharing a bed? You certainly needn't do anything sexual, but it would solve the problem of splitting up nights.
There are several reasons why we aren't sharing a bed. One of them is our sleeping schedules, which differ quite a lot (Alec goes to bed early, I do that like 3 hours later and the same thing with waking up). But by far the biggest issue is that all three of us think of sleeping as something quite intimate that we only want to share with people we love or care for very deeply. I have slept in the same bed with platonic friends, but they are people I've known for a long time and feel comfortable doing that with. That doesn't apply to Alec and I'm sure he feels the same way about me. Another thing related to that thought of intimacy is that when I'm sleeping next to rory, I feel like we're sharing intimate time. For me sleeping together (just sleeping I mean) is in a way quality time together and if I shared it with Alec it wouldn't be so. Rory has said she feels the same way, that if she slept with both of us, she wouldn't have quality intimate time with either one.
But we do have a way of sharing some of the nights which I think is quite cool. :) Like I said, Alec goes to bed early. So when rory is sleeping with him, I go to bed alone. But Alec also wakes up really early (earlier than rory would normally wake up), so when his alarm goes off, rory wakes up too and comes to sleep next to me for the rest of the morning so that when I wake up, she's right there. :) I love that!
I felt very warm and content sandwiched in the middle of two people I loved.
I'm sure that in a situation like yours it would be nice, but I don't love him in that way and he doesn't love me so for us it would be a bit strange to sleep in the same bed.
Then the hugging/kissing in front of me that rory wrote about. I really don't mind at all when I see Alec and rory showing affection to each other. It actually makes me happy to see that. My biggest concern in this situation is that Alec is sometimes feeling bad and if I see him being happy and loved it makes me happy as well. :) I feel compersion but it also makes me feel more secure.
I have had some insecurity about my place in rory's life. It only comes up when she says Alec is feeling bad about something. I've read so many stories from this forum about people getting rid of their newer partners in order to keep their older one if the older one isn't happy with the situation. She has managed to convince me she isn't leaving me. Alec does not have a veto power or anything like that. Not that he's ever felt bad enough to even ask that anyway. The only situation where she would consider breaking up with me is if there's something wrong with us, with our relationship. So I've decided to stop worrying about that. :rolleyes: I trust her and I trust that Alec will get past his negative feelings. They are normal after all and it's not like he's only feeling negative about all things. He has had a lot of positive feelings as well.
I sometimes feel weird that we talk so much about Alec's, rorys' and my feelings about things but very rarely about JJ's. It's just that he doesn't seem to have problems about anything. Obviously he misses me when I'm not with him but that's what he would do if I were somewhere else as well and it's nothing new, it's not poly-related really. Sometimes he worries about money issues with me flying back and forth, but that's excactly why me and rory decided to not see each other as often this year than we originally planned. Me and JJ sort of keep our finances apart. Well, there have been times (quite long ones) when he has had to support me when I was studying for example or had a part-time job. But whenever I'm in a situation where I earn enough, we just split the shared expenses and spend the rest of our money like we want. So I just fly to rory if I can afford it, he shouldn't have to worry about it. If I didn't spend my money on plane tickets, I would just spend it on something else for myself so it isn't really away from him in any way.
Kudos on the hard work that all of you are doing!
--
On an unrelated note, it would be really cool if either Alec or JJ wanted to pop on here now and them as "guest bloggers". :)
Thank you :) I think there's a lot of value in having all viewpoints, it's great when all people involved can be on the forum. However, I doubt either of the men will be joining us. I know that Alec at least isn't really a forum person; he doesn't enjoy written communication at all.
About the sleeping arrangements, Mya described the way in which it works out for me to sleep a whole night with Alec, and then still half a night with Mya when Alec goes to work early. It's funny cause today it worked out the other way around, since I spent the night with Mya, and then went to sleep with Alec in the morning when Mya left to the airport. :p
So, now it's just me and Alec at home again. I actually have some time to spend on the Internet, so what to write about the week? :)
I don't need to tell you this, but poly sure has a way to make life intense and full of.. well, life. A new relationship is always pretty intense, merely due to the fact that it's new. Add to that all the openness, talking, managing of feelings and other stuff poly can bring to the established relationship, particularly when it's all new. Both together can be pretty overwhelming. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I'm feeling good. Really good, really happy. When we started poly, half a year ago, I was feeling happy in an unrealistic, euphoric, over-the-moon sort of way. Right now I'm feeling just as happy, but in a realistic, stable, content way. Full of love and so totally satisfied with the whole situation. :)
I feel that we've finally started it! The whole summer was so crazy and out of the ordinary (since me and Alec basically had no home, and Mya was also living away from JJ). But now we're all back to our everyday lives and back to "normal", sort of. And now that Mya made her visit here, first one of the many to come, I feel that finally I can get a glimpse of what our future will be like. I definitely like the view. :) We've been in a relationship in quite a commited way for several months. But now I can actually feel it, feel that I'm sharing my life with Mya, as I've been sharing it with Alec for a longer time. Feel her as my life partner in a more concrete way than I've felt before.
I totally enjoy the NRE-bubble thing, where everything seems perfect. But I get such a deep satisfaction from sharing everyday life. I've had such a craving for it with Mya, and it's amazing to get to do that. Happy happy. :)
The little things.
It's so not surprising that in choosing partners I would pick people with attributes I value and find important in myself and others, and thus my two partners would have similarities in them. Both Alec and Mya are honest, trustworthy, open, sexy, loving, caring, respectful, understanding, and easygoing people with a lovely sense of humour.
But either it's a coincidence, or my subconcious is trying to tell me something, that they also share things I wouldn't have thought relevant, like the fact that they're both total geeks. :D <3
I also see things in them both, which I lack but like: I haven't conciously searched these qualities, but it might be that opposites attract, or a total coincidence. Both of them are a lot more social than I am: they actually talk to people they don't know and stuff. :confused: :p And it seems to be effortless for them to get to know new people (ok, I know it propably isn't totally effortless, but it sure seems to be easy). Also, they're both really sane, and have no issues. I only wish I could say the same about myself. :p No, but seriously, I think it's good for me to have partners who have normal energy levels, since I usually have either more or way less, and that's enough to handle in everyday life.
AnnabelMore
10-23-2011, 02:07 PM
Both Gia and Davis have social anxiety to varying degrees, which kinda blows my mind, as I'm a very social person... I'm an amateur actor, I communicate with strangers constantly for my job. One serious partner who would usually prefer to be at home or with a few close friends versus out in a crowd would be one thing, but two? I can only guess that I was seeking balance without realizing it, or maybe I give balance to them and that's part of why they're drawn to me.
But either it's a coincidence, or my subconcious is trying to tell me something, that they also share things I wouldn't have thought relevant, like the fact that they're both total geeks. :D <3
Haha! :D That's true and I find it funny that me and Alec have also other similarities like this which are quite random. For example our work histories have some similarities even though we haven't studied even remotely same things.
Both Gia and Davis have social anxiety to varying degrees, which kinda blows my mind, as I'm a very social person... I'm an amateur actor, I communicate with strangers constantly for my job. One serious partner who would usually prefer to be at home or with a few close friends versus out in a crowd would be one thing, but two? I can only guess that I was seeking balance without realizing it, or maybe I give balance to them and that's part of why they're drawn to me.
This is interesting. :) I think these things are something that people might search for in other people unconciously, fo balance or something. Maybe especially the antisocial ones are looking for the social ones. I don't know why it makes more sense that way in my mind. :rolleyes:
This made me think of something. I don't really need much of my own space. I'm content if I get to spend some time on the internet every day but even that I don't have to do alone. I can talk to someone while I do that. I also have a lot of friends (consequences of being social I guess :D) and I want to spend quite a lot of time with them. So what I do need is time away from my partners but what I don't need much is time alone. JJ and rory are both the type that need time alone. That fits me well if I'm living with a person like that. If go and see a friend, JJ gets time alone. Works great.
The situation is different when I'm visiting rory because I don't have friends there, except the one I mentioned before. So when rory needs time alone and I don't, I don't know what to do (and I guess that among other things led to her not getting enough alone time the last time I was there). If Alec is home when that happens, I can hang out with him. But during the week he isn't spending that much time at home and from that time we want to all hang out together and also he and rory need time together, so there isn't much left. I guess this is something we need to figure out how to deal with.
This is interesting. :) I think these things are something that people might search for in other people unconciously, fo balance or something. Maybe especially the antisocial ones are looking for the social ones. I don't know why it makes more sense that way in my mind. :rolleyes:
Oh, you don't find my antisociality (is that a word?) attractive? I'm hurt! :( :D
It's totally interesting how these things happen! I don't know if it's about compatibility in relationships, maybe more about how people get to know each other? As in, if I am an antisocial person, the friendship/partnership will only, or more easily, happen with somebody who's social. With two antisocial cases nobody's making the (what feels like an overwhelming amount of) effort needed, and so the relationship won't develop?
In our situation it might, in time, actually be that Mya and Alec will hang out somewhat more without me. Right now there's some poly weirdness, and both of them have more needs from me while we're getting used to the part-time living together. But once we get into the routine (and we get the car so that Alec will actually have some free time in the evenings), that might be a natural development. In the end, if/once they feel comfortable with it, it might be in all of our interests. I know that in my relationship and everyday life with Alec I am the one with more need for time and space of my own. He's gotten used to it with me, and has developed some similar needs of his own, but there propably are times he could use company when I can't offer that.
Today I talked with Mya about metamour relationships. Originally, there were some random thoughts and feelings I wanted to express, but during the discussion it turned out that there was more to it.
I got this advice from Mono some moths ago, in the thread "Metamour love":
One more tip: don't let your partners use you as a gateway for their communication. Encourage them to talk independently as sometimes we can hide behind the assurances of others that everything is ok. They should take it on themselves to check in if everyone wants a greater level of true connection and comfort.
It's increasing in importance by the minute. Until now everybody's been getting to know each other, and communication has mostly happened along the N: between JJ and Mya, Mya and me, and me and Alec. There hasn't been too much to communicate between metamours, it has felt less akward to just relay information when something has occurred, and I guess none of us really realised the importance before (even if me and Mya have read it here).
I'm happy to say that there haven't been any major miscommunications or anything like that due to this. However, me and Mya realised today that we've both had some heavy emotions and time&energy spent on handling them, which could have been pretty much avoided by direct metamour communication. Acting as a gateway is tiring, and you're taking on issues which aren't really yours, and which you can't do anything about. So we decided to start working on that from this moment onwards.
I've mentioned control issues, right? :rolleyes: Somehow it's obvious that if me and JJ have some issue concerning the two of us, it's our responsibility to discuss it. However, at the same time I feel like it's my responsibility to make sure everybody gets along perfectly all the time. Rationally I realise that the world won't end if people have conflicts or disagreements; I just have to fight the irrational fear that comes to me with relinquishing control. There is a immediate reward, though: while I feel anxious whenever I'm reminded about my inability to control everything and keep everybody happy and satisfied 24/7, trusting others to handle their own stuff and letting go brings relief and relaxation that no illusion of control can bring.
I read some earlier posts, and came across this.
Somehow, I'm becoming a very good listener. I think it comes from realising how important it is to listen. But I think there is some baggage I've left behind, and the concept of boundaries has been really helpful. For example, if Alec tells me about some negative feelings he has, I only take it as a statement of a fact. I listen and interpret it as it is meant: that he has feelings. I no longer take it to mean that he's blaming me, or attempting to control me, or that it is something he wants me to fix.
Mya caught me attempting the bolded yesterday to something she was feeling. Basically, I was trying to rationalise her out of feeling it. It's really good that she noticed it and told me to stop. It's a reflex really, and I do it with both my partners (and I'm thinking also in other relationships). I guess that's how I handle my own emotions so that I can manage them, so I try to do it for others, too, because I hurt when they hurt. And if the hurt is caused by something I've done, in addition to hurt I'll feel guilty (even if there is no reason to, i.e. it wasn't intentional) and that's even worse a trigger.
I guess it often can work, I can make a person feel better, and I suppose that can be good..? :confused: But it's sort of selfish, too. Also, if I actually succeed in managing my partner's emotions they won't do that themselves, and that's not beneficial to anybody. And sometimes it works so that it's harder to tell me things, because I act like I don't want to allow them to exist.. Even if I seriously don't mean to do that.
I'll need to try and be really concious about this, and stop it. I'm thinking that I should make an agreement with myself that:
1) whenever an emotion is expressed to me, I do my best not to react with anything but listening and sympathy, and allow my partner, and myself, feel whatever feelings there are.
2) If there are some excellent reasons in my head why that feeling shouldn't exist (and there pretty much always are), I will not express them in the same conversation. Maybe there should be a timeline, that I may not say them, unless asked, in at least 24 hours. I'm thinking that if my partner want's to discuss it rationally, I can say what I think, but I shouldn't offer my opinion before they have had enough time to feel the feeling..?
Opinions welcomed, please.
Both of rory's recent posts have to do with the same conversation we had yesterday.
Mya caught me attempting the bolded yesterday to something she was feeling. Basically, I was trying to rationalise her out of feeling it. It's really good that she noticed it and told me to stop. It's a reflex really, and I do it with both my partners (and I'm thinking also in other relationships). I guess that's how I handle my own emotions so that I can manage them, so I try to do it for others, too, because I hurt when they hurt. And if the hurt is caused by something I've done, in addition to hurt I'll feel guilty (even if there is no reason to, i.e. it wasn't intentional) and that's even worse a trigger.
---
And sometimes it works so that it's harder to tell me things, because I act like I don't want to allow them to exist.. Even if I seriously don't mean to do that.
Basically all this was triggered by the fact that I'm still sometimes feeling bad about Alec not wanting to live with JJ and rory is having a hard time accepting that I feel bad. The conversation went something like this:
Mya: I'm still feeling bad about Alec not wanting to live with JJ. It makes me feel like JJ is being excluded.
rory: But it's not personal, it's not like Alec doesn't like JJ or anything. It's just the closeness thing.
Mya: Yeah, I totally get that. I understand it. And I'm not angry with Alec. But I still feel bad and there's nothing you can do about it now. I'm going to feel bad for a while and then I'm going to get over it, but it's not happening in a minute.
rory: But... (more reasons why I shouldn't feel bad)
Mya: This is not helping. You just have to let me feel like this for a while now and accept it. You can't rationalise me out of it, because I already know all the reasons why my feeling bad isn't the rational reaction but it's still the feeling I have.
rory: Maybe I shouldn't have even told you this in the first place, or I should've just told you that Alec doesn't want to live all four of us together and not mention he could maybe live with you, but not with JJ.
Mya: That's not the right way to handle it. You have to tell me important things even if you know I would feel bad about them. You just have to deal with me feeling bad and you not being able to do anything about it. Not telling isn't the solution. Would you want me to not express that I feel bad about something you've told me?
rory: No, I think it's important that we can express our feelings honestly.
Mya: Well then we just have to keep doing what we've been doing but you need to let me feel what I feel and get over it myself. And actually, this isn't even a thing that concerns you very much. I'm upset about something that Alec is thinking. Maybe I should just discuss this with him and get over it more quickly?
And then we got to the general discussion about talking to metamours more directly:
However, me and Mya realised today that we've both had some heavy emotions and time&energy spent on handling them, which could have been pretty much avoided by direct metamour communication. Acting as a gateway is tiring, and you're taking on issues which aren't really yours, and which you can't do anything about. So we decided to start working on that from this moment onwards.
This is something I've noticed in my relationship with JJ as well. He tells me something which makes me feel bad but it's not his fault, or we have a fight and he apologizes. And the next minute he expects me to feel better. I don't. My feelings don't change that quickly. I don't hold a grudge or anything, it just takes me a while to get over negative feelings even though the reason for them is already over. It's sometimes quite weird even for me. There have been instances where something bad happens and I can't get over it even if something good happens right after it. Fictitious example:
Teacher: You didn't pass your test.
Mya: :( :(
Teacher: Oh sorry, I was looking at someone else's results, you actually passed!
Mya: Oh, ok... :(
And then after like a few hours I might start to enjoy the fact that I passed. If I get a negative feeling, it just takes me over somehow. I do get over it, but I guess it takes me more time than average. :confused:
You'll never guess what I got from JJ for my birthday!
Plane tickets to see rory!! :) :)
He is amazing. I can't believe he did that. :eek: :o I'm so happy! :)
You'll never guess what I got from JJ for my birthday!
Plane tickets to see rory!! :) :)
He is amazing. I can't believe he did that. :eek: :o I'm so happy! :)
Cooooool!!! Very happy here, too! :):) You can tell him thanks from me too. :p
I saw a friend yesterday. She is having some jealousy problems in her relationship. Her boyfriend gets angry about very little things, like when she talks to strangers (men) in a bar. They're working on it and the boyfriend admits that it's a problem and is trying to change himself. The thing that struck me was when my friend said "I don't mind if he's a little jealous, because that means he cares. He just has to get rid of that ridicilous amount of it."
I replied to that with something like "I can see that some people might feel that way". The truth is, I see it as a recurrent pattern that people say and in that way I can understand it, but I don't really get it. For me jealousy comes from wanting to own the other person, not from caring really. I wouldn't want my partner to want to own me. I think I'm in a very rare position of never having been the object of jealousy and never being jealous myself. I've had three partners, so one relationship before these two that I'm in now, and none of those three people are/were jealous, or at least they've never expressed it to me.
This is really handy in polyamory. Yesterday JJ and I talked about his feelings towards that woman I mentioned earlier. I asked some questions just out of curiosity and he was like "Do you really want to hear this?" and I said yes, so he told me. I tried to observe my reactions and no, not a hint of jealousy. I know what she looks like so I know she's pretty. I'm sure some people would think she's prettier than me, at least she's thinner than me. I'm also sure that she has some good qualities that I don't. But that doesn't really matter. I'm unique and good enough just the way I am. I don't have to be better than her. If JJ finds some good things in someone else that I can't offer, that's only positive. But I don't know what I'm going on about, you all know these things anyway. :D
What is love?
I have a feeling I have been doing deep, philosophical thinking on this one from time to time for a long time. I keep coming back to it, I don't think I've reached the logical conclusion on it yet.
I have gotten some insightful views about love from people around me. There have been similarities, but always differences, too. Also, I've read thoughts of some people on here that have described very well what I feel: some of the aspects you rarely see expressed in a more mainstream context. Somehow, even writing about love makes you feel/seem like a total hippie and freak (both of which I am happily, but it's impolite to rub it in people's faces too much :p).
Obviously there is polyamory. That's an aspect in my way of loving, which I have in common with many people here. But there are other aspects, too.
One friend of mine is sexually monogamous and is in a partnership with her husband only. However, she has many friends whom she loves, and she sees no difference in the kinds of love she has for her friends and the love she has for her husband. I guess you could say she is polyamorous, but chooses not to have more partners than one. And her love is totally platonic for everybody besides her husband.
In many respects I'm starting to think I am similar to her, but there are also some major differences. Firstly, while she only wants a monogamous relationship (even as she loves many), I am open for more.
Secondly, in the sexual aspect we are the polar opposites. Her way of loving towards the people she chooses not to be partners with is totally platonic. I guess this is the reason she can feel quite free in expressing her love. There's no sexual energy coming from her, and when that's the case it's more "permissible" in the eyes of society. People don't get afraid when she expresses her love, because it is so clear that it's completely platonic, and somehow that makes it clear there are no expectations to it (sexual or romantic). When there is sexual energy, people easily see expectation even if there is none.
I guess here lies some of the reason it's been so hard for me to admit to myself how I love; it goes against all things that are generally seen as acceptable. You are only supposed to love your friends "in a different way", because that's what's supposed to make your partnerships special (what a idiotic assumption, btw, it's the unique people in them that make all relationships special!). It's seen a threat to your friendship if there are "feelings". Particularly, you're not supposed to be open to sex with your friends, and you definitely must not have sex with them. In fact, being platonic is in the definition of friendship, you're supposed to be "just friends". It takes time to get rid of all those beliefs; it takes time to believe that your feelings aren't a threat to anybody: not you, or your friends, or your partner(s), or your relationships. It takes time to see that indeed, there need not be any expectation linked to love, and you need not to act based on the feelings without any rational thought.
But here it is. I actually think I love all my closest friends, as well as my partners (obviously). With some people, with a certain kind of connection, I can begin to love easily, freely, and quickly. I just haven't been honest with myself about it before. I haven't used the word that actually describes my feelings: love. I am only admitting it to myself now: my love for my friends is not in any way different kind of love from the love I have for my partners; the things that differ in relationships are how that love is expressed and how deep it is.
The ways to express love depend on the person AND the relationship. In some relationships there are no sexual aspects, and that is just perfect the way it is. But, the love is still the same kind. In very many friendships I don't feel any need to express my love in words, it may not feel natural to the relationship, or there might be misunderstandings about expectations.
But from now on, I will try my hardest to be honest with myself about my love. And I will no longer be afraid of it, or hide from it, or try to deny it. I will (aim to) not have expectation linked to love. I actually don't think it'll be as hard to let go of expectation when I don't try to deny the love that exists, as I can see that I actually am in many relationships with people I love which don't involve sex/romance/partnership/etc., and I am perfectly happy and satisfied with that.
I wonder if this makes sense to some people. I am happy, though, to have clarity for myself. :)
I feel like at the moment we're in a sort of turning point, that from now on we can finally see how it really works out between the four of us. In a way I'm confident that me and rory are right for each other and our husbands for us. The three relationships are doing well. But what leaves me feeling a bit insecure is how all this is going to work, now that I'm regularly visiting them and all. I'm feeling vulnerable. I was feeling more stable a month ago than now for some reason. And at the same time both of my partners started talking about sexual feelings towards other people. Sometimes it's just too much at the same time and it all becomes overwhelming. I've been talking about love, feelings, sex and commitment so much during these last few days that it's starting to become all I can think about. :rolleyes:
I think I need a break from thinking. :p
I think I need a break from thinking. :p
You should think about it. ;) :p
nycindie
10-31-2011, 08:44 PM
I think I need a break from thinking. :p
You should think about it. ;) :pI think so! ;)
I'll write (again) about the issue that's hardest for me personally in polyamory. It's not exclusive to poly, of course, but like many other things it's magnified by it. That's acknowledging and taking care of my own needs and boundaries. That doesn't come naturally to me, and there are a lot of emotions linked to why it's hard. I think the most difficult one is guilt. Warning: this will be long. ;)
I did neglect some of my needs (most importantly alone time) when Mya was visiting, ignoring them while riding the emotional high, and that has really bitten me in the ass after she left. I had really low energy for the whole of last week, and I'm only now coming out of it. No harm done (I'm not too behind with studies), and that can happen in other situations, too. And the week-long-low has had one really good side-effect: I finally went to see a doctor about mental health, which is something I probably should have done some years ago. (Not getting into that topic right now, I'll update on this front if they diagnose me with something, but that'll be a while.)
However it's important to address these issues, needs and boundaries, as thoroughly as possible both before and during Mya's next visit. Obviously I don't think I'll suddenly be perfect at something I've worked on for so long. But I will aim to pay extra attention to this. The immediate goal is to decrease worst of the impact (i.e. prevent me from extreme low afterwards). We/I need to do some brainstorming about the practicalities later (I actually think we should talk about these things together with all three of us; Alec, Mya, and me), but I now want to write about the emotional side.
One need of mine I did address during the week: the need for more sleep. We had talked about the sleeping schedule in advance, and deemed it fair that I would sleep every third night with Alec and the others with Mya, making it 5 nights with Mya and 2 with Alec. They have different sleeping schedules, and, thus, I would get about 8 hours of sleep on the nights I spent with Mya and 11 hours with Alec. Had we a bigger apartment, everybody could obviously go to sleep at whatever time they wish. But now, Alec sleeps in the living room, and Mya sleeps in the bedroom: so if I want to go to sleep at 9pm I can't do it in the bedroom because Mya's still awake and she can't go anywhere else since Alec's sleeping in the living room (and we have no other rooms). Therefore, if I need to go to sleep before Mya, it means I will go to sleep with Alec. I'm getting dizzy describing that, is it understandable? :p The point is, anyway, that because I felt I needed more sleep, and for the practical space limitations, I had to ask Mya if it was alright to her if I slept that one night with Alec instead of her. She was pretty fine with it and the issue was resolved.
However, while it wasn't a big deal as such, emotionally it was hard for me; and now that I have some energy again, I want to analyse why. It makes me quite anxious to deal with guilt, because I don't like to remind myself about all the baggage I have, but I will write despite that anxiety. Here are some of my thoughts.
A Because of internalised monogamous socialisation, habits, and my commitment to him, I feel (but do not consciously believe) that Alec is entitled to my time. Therefore, I feel guilty for not sleeping with him. I realise the irrationality of the guilt, and the fact that it is based on beliefs which I don't subscribe to, and that makes me feel angry towards myself for feeling guilty without doing anything wrong. Because I hate feeling and can't accept the irrational guilt, I overcompensate. Thus, I feel the need to prove to myself that I won't give into the monogamous conditioning. Because of all this, it is hard for me to balance making boundaries while still taking into account Alec's needs. I tend to do too much of one or the other: if I follow my natural response, I tend to ignore my own needs, but if I fight it, I may end up putting all my own needs and wants before any needs of his, creating a situation as unreasonable and imbalanced. It is hard for me to evaluate them objectively with all the emotional stuff going on.
B It is important to me to strive for equality. I am strongly opposed to primary/secondary in my own relationships (others can do whatever they want and what fits them best: there's no judgement here! :)). I am doing a lot of processing to truly internalise that equality is not sameness, but it is easier to believe in some instances than others. I feel like I need to prove to myself that my relationships are as important, and that I don't put Alec's needs before Mya's just because I've been in a relationship with him for a longer time. To a lesser extent I also feel a need to prove it to Mya (through no fault of hers), and because I am very conscious that to the general opinion it looks like we're just two married women "having a little fun on the side" while our marriages will always be the top priority. Rationally, I think absolutely no decisions should be made because of a need to prove something to somebody, but it still works on the emotional/unconscious level. So, because of all this, and the goal of equality, and my commitment to her, I feel (but again, do not consciously believe) that Mya is entitled to my time.
Conclusion: There is something essential I need to learn to believe: my time is my own; I don't owe anybody anything but it is mine to spend freely to whatever I want. I could add the disclaimer about the need to care for the feelings of others, but seriously I don't need it. I'm so far from the balance that there is little risk of neglecting others. It is my responsibility, and should be my first priority, to take care of my own needs. It is actually pretty clear that my partners will take care of defining and expressing their needs (and that is good!); I need to prioritise my own for otherwise it won't get done.
To be honest, the thought of doing this raises such anxiety. I know it's really fear. Fear of not being accepted, fear of not being good enough, fear of abandonment, of not being loved. That same anxiety, fear, is there every single time I enforce a boundary; each time I express a need that conflicts with something I know somebody I love wants from me. The magnitude of the fear is irrational and in no way in relation to the thing in question; and the relief I feel when the other person doesn't react badly is similarly out of proportion. Irrationally, it is actually relatively easier to ask for something really big, i.e. something that's more likely to be a deal breaker, because the amount of fear is the same, but if it's something I really can't ignore, the possible abandonment would be easier to handle than with something not so essential (as in, something I can live with even if it makes me miserable, if the misery is easier to handle than the irrational fear of not being loved).
Senga
11-01-2011, 01:29 PM
This blog is really inspiring! Thanks for writing about your story. I find myself agreeing with a lot of the things you two feel. Your situation & how you make it work is really interesting to me because I hope to create a similar situation some day.
Best wishes to you all
SNeacail
11-01-2011, 02:03 PM
@Rory - You worked out this sleeping plan, felt guilty because it wasn't what you would consider a fair split, then felt even worse when it was effecting your need for sleep and you had to change it. I have a suggestion, stop trying to be in control of the entire situation. Next visit, the three of you sit down and work out the sleep schedule together (everyone gets a voice), after Mya gets there and leave room for sudden changes, like figuring out you need more sleep or such.
I think I need a break from thinking. :p
You should think about it. ;) :p
I think so! ;)
:D
But I can't do that now! Rory started another interesting topic to think about so after this one I guess. :rolleyes:
And also, meditating helps. I meditated quite a while yesterday and immediately felt way better, so my brain doesn't feel as clogged anymore. :)
This blog is really inspiring! Thanks for writing about your story. I find myself agreeing with a lot of the things you two feel. Your situation & how you make it work is really interesting to me because I hope to create a similar situation some day.
Best wishes to you all
Thank you very much! :) That felt really nice. :)
@Rory - You worked out this sleeping plan, felt guilty because it wasn't what you would consider a fair split, then felt even worse when it was effecting your need for sleep and you had to change it. I have a suggestion, stop trying to be in control of the entire situation. Next visit, the three of you sit down and work out the sleep schedule together (everyone gets a voice), after Mya gets there and leave room for sudden changes, like figuring out you need more sleep or such.
Thanks SNeacail for your input. :) This isn't the first time rory feels like she's responsible for everything and tries to keep the control to herself:
I've mentioned control issues, right? :rolleyes:
I think what you suggested is exactly what we need to do. Discuss this all three of us and not make any definite plans, go with what feels right each evening. Or we could have a loose plan but keep it open for changes.
Hey there,
I can so relate to most of your worries :) And I have found an indicator that helps me put them away when they occupy my mind too much. If you worry about not splitting equally, about being to focused on Mya/Alec/your needs, about any possible situation or cause for the situation you can think about: wait for someone to complain about it. If no one actually IS unsatisfied, meaning, coming forth to tell you about the neglect of some needs of his/hers, don't worry about it on your own.
Our sleeping arrangement is similar, expect the fact that we rotate nightly, and it's impossible for Lin, who sleeps on the couch, to stay asleep when one of us leaves the bedroom to do something in the flat. Or the other way round: when I stay with Lin for the night and Sward gets up in the morning he is bound to wake us up. This been our deal for 5 weeks now, really unnerving sometimes. And I worried if Lin could be mad because his time with me is always interrupted and if Sward felt uncomfortable because he sits right next to us when he drinks his coffee in the morning, watching us cuddled up and such. I got stressed out more and more thinking about it. End of story: No one was bothered as much as I was by my constant worries.
To sum this up: None of them complained. I was too occupied thinking about the negative possibilities to hear my own complains. I neglected my own needs. My needs being that I should have been able to enjoy every moment that I spent with each. I spoiled my own fun there. I know how hard it is to change this routine of thinking about stuff to make sure that all is sorted out completely and that all negativities are taken care of before they actually arise. And stop thinking of “this is how it has to be” role-model. It's all about feelings and comfort levels and such. They are individual. They are in fact that different, that I could never compare mine to Sward's or Lin's. (What I tend to do most of the time, what leads to assuming that they can't feel satisfied with this/that, what brings me back to the starting line... )
I mean, to be honest :rolleyes:, I am in no position to talk actually. I do exactly the same all day long :p But that is what I have found to be the case most of the time. And it's mostly more damaging than it's doing any good for me or us. And let me guarantee something: We will never be able to stop worrying completely. Therefore it can do us some good to stop the process of thoughts from time to time if we have brooded over a topic too long and wait for them to come to us. They are all grown ups, they will tell you when something needs to be adjusted. Grant yourself the same freedom and rest assured that it is OK, when you do the same and ask for things that you would like to work differently. You are eager to fulfill their wishes, they are as well, if I am allowed to make a guess here ;)
This has gotten quite long, but as I said, I have had all these thoughts already more than once. It's great that you have been able to come a similar conclusion as I have. I can even relate to your fears. It was on my part mainly caused by them loving me so much and unconditionally that I couldn't stomach it intellectually. I was wondering how this could be possible. Twice even. I have kind of simply accepted it. I am sure it's the same for you and them. Allow them to love you in the way they do and don't doubt it or feel pressured by it. Not meaning taking them for granted of course, but have a bit more trust in them. Sward said, that he would feel hurt if his partner was constantly in fear of expressing her needs. He would start to assume that he wasn't trusted enough to be able to fulfill them.
I will shut up now; good luck to you and your loved ones :)
Wise words, Phy. :) All that makes a lot of sense, thanks for adding your input!
Me and rory had loooong conversations about these things yesterday and today and I think we finally got somewhere.
1) Yes, the three of us most definately will have a conversation the next time I'm going there about time splitting and everyone will get heard.
2) One of the biggest causes for imbalance is that I go there just for rory and she has these other people and things in her life that need attention, too. So I need to develop a life of my own in their city as well. I will change my attitude towards time spent there. It's not just about her, I can do other things with my time as well. I already started looking for some activities near their place that interest me that I could sign up for. Also, even when I'm at their place, I can for example read and meditate more. All good and healthy things. :)
3) I can go to bed earlier the nights when rory is sleeping next to me. This is a compromise for me but not a big one. I'll gladly do it if the reward is a night with her.
4) Last time I was there was too intense and tiring mainly because of the lack of proper conversation during the weeks before that. The next time is not going to be as bad in that regard. We have spoken via skype a lot so there shouldn't be many things piled up waiting to be discussed.
5) Both of us want what's best for the entire situation and everybody's wellbeing, not just what feels good in any given moment. This means that rory has to take some time for herself even if the need for it hasn't yet grown to anxiety or something bigger. She needs to do that regularly, even if sometimes emotionally she would prefer spending time with me and/or Alec.
6) Equality is important. But it's also important to recognize that these relationships are not similar. Even when they're equal, they're not the same. Me and rory might consider different things important in our relationship that rory and Alec would. So sometimes something I/we want is not in any way away from Alec, because he might need something entirely different that I don't even think about. Well, we both need time/attention and that's something we need to work on how to split, but that's not the only thing you can get from a relationship, obviously.
A few steps forward I think. :)
opalescent
11-04-2011, 03:30 PM
I think y'all are handling things in a really wise, loving way.
Senga very glad to hear you found our blog inspiring; thank you. :)
SNeacail I'm not sure there was much wrong with the sleeping plan, except that it wasn't flexible enough. However, you are so absolutely right about the control thing. It's such a natural response to me in every aspect of my life, that I don't always even see it before somebody else points it out. So thank you for doing that. I definitely need to - and also really want to - learn to let go of the controlling.
Phy thank you so much for writing!! :) I think your advice about trying not to worry unless somebody expresses that there is a problem is excellent. I agree both in practical terms and with the broader sentiment. Firstly, I can't read minds, I need to let go of controlling everything, and I will go insane if I keep worrying about all potential issues somebody might have. Seconly, it's counter-productive: if I do manage to "read somebody's mind", i.e. guess that there is something they feel bad about, and I solve it somehow, they never need to communicate it to me, which isn't really good for our relationship. I do need to trust both of them to express their needs. Rationally, I truly see that it is their responsibility, too, I just need to remind myself about it whenever I start worrying.
About the fear and loving: in my general state of mind, I do believe that I am a good partner and a lovable person. Thus, I don't usually fear abandonment, because I'm confident that I can continue being satisfied with my life even it the worst happens. But there does seem to be a more deep-rooted fear, which is not so much of abandonment, but of not being accepted and loved as I am, particularly in regards to the aspects of myself that I find hard to accept myself. I guess it relates to the pleasing, as in, there's some belief that if only I am good enough a partner, it will compensate for the aspects which are "lacking". The rational side of me doesn't really believe all the things my emotional side believes. Just need to get the latter to listen to the former... :rolleyes:
opalescent thank you for your lovely words. :)
Me and Mya have kept discussions going about the topic I wrote about earlier, what love is. This has been very interesting. Firstly, we have uncovered some differences, and been able to describe our feelings to each other, and that has led to a greater understanding between us. Secondly, reflecting on her views has made it clearer to me how I love, and what I value.
For me the essence of love is not about passionate feelings, but more about the lasting things. For me, love consists of deep liking and caring for the person. I guess I'm not a terribly romantic person; not in the American movies sort of way (with candles and flowers and moonlight and dinners), and neither do I hold romantic love to be special with regards to other kinds of love but, rather, for me there really is only one kind of love. Obviously, I enjoy passion and all that, but that's not what love is about for me.
There was a bit of confusion around the feelings, though. When I say that I love all the people I do in the same way, I refer to the things that exist for me all the time: deep liking and caring. I don't refer to bursts of feelings. Thus, my love for a person feels different for each person. I have different depth, different passion, different affection with each person I love. However, there isn't a specific, romantic love for me, which would be only for my partners and another kind for everybody else I love. There is love, which manifests itself in different ways and different feelings with different people.
My attitude towards NRE is quite similar, I enjoy the good thing it brings, but I don't attach much value to it, because I know it won't last. The really good stuff, the real stuff starts afterwards. Not that NRE experiences aren't real and valuable in themselves, it's just that I attach more value to all that I can trust to last.
I find the individual differences in this area fascinating. I wanted to write about my view and feelings. If you wish, feel free to write about your way of loving, whether it's similar or different. Do you love your partners in the same way as your friends? Is romantic love different from other kinds of love? Are there, for you, different types of love? What are your feelings like, when you are in love?
I had a very interesting discussion with JJ today. Our plans for the future are getting clearer. It looks like we are moving to the big city (which is in the same country as rory and Alec) in about 8-10 months. That seems to be the most rational decision considering JJ's work situation. We also talked about what happens if I love living there (which I'm quite sure I will because I did before) and he doesn't and wants to move back here. We came to the conclusion that there would be basically three choises: 1) one or the other lives in a place where they're miserable, 2) we break up or 3) we continue the relationship in an indefinite LDR version. We both agreed that the first option would be the worst and we don't want that, so that leaves us with the second and third one.
Indefinite LDR would sound unbearable if we were monogamous, but now it really is an option. We talked about it and we're quite sure we would at least try to live in a LDR, and JJ would be open (and maybe even trying) to having another partner close by. In that case the other partner would get a lot more time from JJ than she would in the current situation where we're living together. That would perhaps make finding the person a bit easier, since in practise he could offer almost as much as a regular single guy, except monogamy and marriage. :D :rolleyes: Although even then it wouldn't be easy in our little home town. So I guess it would all come down to whether he would find anyone willing to try polyamory or not. If not, I can't imagine him wanting to spend the rest of his life basically living alone and getting affection etc. only once a month or so. But we'll see. At least the continuation of our relationship is not as hopeless as it would be if we were mono. Then I think we would most likely break up in case we were living permanently in different countries.
nycindie
11-07-2011, 06:26 PM
I am so curious about what you all do and how it is that all of you travel so much. I assume you're in Europe. I'm not asking you to reveal anything, I just wanted you to know it all sounds so intriguing in an "international jetsetter" way. LOL. :D
I am so curious about what you all do and how it is that all of you travel so much. I assume you're in Europe. I'm not asking you to reveal anything, I just wanted you to know it all sounds so intriguing in an "international jetsetter" way. LOL. :D
:D
Even though you're not asking us to reveal anything, I'll do it anyway. :p We are indeed in Europe. The distances are not very long between countries and there are a lot of low-cost airlines. That's our secret, we're not actually rich or anything. ;)
Alec has a job with normal working hours. JJ's job is a bit more flexible, meaning that he can do the required hours so that he takes a day off here and there and works more on other days. Rory is a student, so her schedule is pretty flexible, but obviously she can't skip too many classes. I am a freelancer and I can do my job wherever I am, as long as I have my laptop and an internet connection. So I guess our situation as a whole is pretty flexible when it comes to schedules and traveling. :)
While we're on topic, I can also tell you about my next trip. ;) I'm going to rory and Alec's next week! Woohoo, can't wait! This time I'm spending a week and a half to make up for the fact that we're not seeing each other at all in December.
nycindie
11-07-2011, 09:14 PM
Even though you're not asking us to reveal anything, I'll do it anyway. :p We are indeed in Europe. The distances are not very long between countries and there are a lot of low-cost airlines. That's our secret, we're not actually rich or anything. ;)
Well, now that you've revealed that much, I will probe some more! ;) Are you all Europeans? I was wondering if any of you are American ex-pats.
I've only been to Europe twice: once to Spain and another time to Austria and Germany. Loved both trips. Other countries I've been to were New Zealand, Costa Rica, Mexico, and several islands in the Caribbean, but I would love to take off some time and explore Europe.
Well, now that you've revealed that much, I will probe some more! ;) Are you all Europeans? I was wondering if any of you are American ex-pats.
I've only been to Europe twice: once to Spain and another time to Austria and Germany. Loved both trips. Other countries I've been to were New Zealand, Costa Rica, Mexico, and several islands in the Caribbean, but I would love to take off some time and explore Europe.
Yes, we're all Europeans and in fact we all have the same nationality. So originally we're from the same country. Alec and rory moved away from here and I moved to the same country as them around the same time although we didn't know each other then. Me and rory met in that other country in my last month there. We started the relationship and a couple of weeks from that I moved back to our home country, back to JJ, and here we are now. Waiting to move back to the other country, this time with JJ.
I've traveled quite a lot around Europe. It's really convinient because the flights are short and cheap so it's easy to make for example weekend trips. I love the cultural variety you can find in Europe. Countries so close to each other can be quite different and that's fascinating. :)
nycindie thanks for commenting. :) I haven't had much chance to travel, just a few places in Europe, but New Zealand is definitely high up on my list of places-to-see! That will have to wait, though, until I'm no longer living on a student budget...
--
Havent had a lot to write, I've just been enjoying my everyday life lately, and apparently I'm not good at posting when life goes on issue-freely. I've been able to study really well, for a change. I've mostly read and written stuff at home. Everything's going well with Alec, we enjoy our usual routines. Me and Mya have skyped quite often, every other day (or even daily). Today we talked for 7 hours, normally it's not for that long, though. :p But it was sort of more like the both of us were surfing on our respective computers in the same room, except that we're a couple thousand kilometers apart. :D I've really appreciated the support that I've had from both Mya and Alec in recent times when I've been going through stuff feeling low. Mya is extremely good to talk with, and I'm constantly surprised by the fact that together we are able to solve pretty much anything. Alec is a huge help with his presence; I don't know how he does it, but he can make me feel really good and calm and secure.
And Mya will come and visit again in less than a week! That's so cool! :) We've talked a lot about time and energy things, and I think the both of us have more realistic plans and expectations for the time she'll be here. All three of us will also have a discussion once she's here. However, I think the processing the both of us have done already will in itself have a positive effect, since on the last time the problem was basically that I spent too little time on studies and by myself, and too much with Mya. But this time it'll be different, because we've skyped so much before she gets here, and both of us will treat the time more like everyday life and less like a special occasion. After all, we've got the rest of our lives to spend with each other, so we will have quite enough time for everything.
Today we talked for 7 hours, normally it's not for that long, though. :p
Yeah, normally it's only 4 hours. :p If one of us has something planned and says we have to keep it short, it's still like 2 hours. :rolleyes:
I love the long skype calls. They really make me feel like rory is a significant part of my everyday life. It's awesome! JJ was away from home for a few days, so that 7 hour call came at the perfect time when I didn't have any other plans either and I was home alone.
I'm leaving to see rory in a few days. :) I feel suprisingly calm. I am excited of course and very happy to see her, but I guess because we've talked so much lately I feel like the change is not going to be very big when I get there. Well obviously I can't wait to be with her physically, hug her and more. ;) But for the rest, I'm really calm about everything. I'm not nervous like I was last time. I feel relaxed and sure that everything's going to go well.
I saw my mom today and talked about my next trip to rory. When I was leaving her house, she said "Have fun on your vacation!". I replied "It's not really a vacation, I'm going to work from there like normal. It's just like everyday life but in a different place. But thanks, I'm sure I'll have fun!". That came out of me without thinking. I'm actually pretty happy about that genuine thought. I don't want it to be too special occasion when I go there. I feel like I've let go of most of my expectations and I'm just going with the flow, doing what feels right, not thinking too much. I love this feeling and I hope it lasts. :)
I saw my mom today and talked about my next trip to rory. When I was leaving her house, she said "Have fun on your vacation!". I replied "It's not really a vacation, I'm going to work from there like normal. It's just like everyday life but in a different place. But thanks, I'm sure I'll have fun!". That came out of me without thinking. I'm actually pretty happy about that genuine thought. I don't want it to be too special occasion when I go there. I feel like I've let go of most of my expectations and I'm just going with the flow, doing what feels right, not thinking too much. I love this feeling and I hope it lasts. :)
This sounds good! :) <3
I'll need to try and be really concious about this, and stop it. I'm thinking that I should make an agreement with myself that:
1) whenever an emotion is expressed to me, I do my best not to react with anything but listening and sympathy, and allow my partner, and myself, feel whatever feelings there are.
2) If there are some excellent reasons in my head why that feeling shouldn't exist (and there pretty much always are), I will not express them in the same conversation. Maybe there should be a timeline, that I may not say them, unless asked, in at least 24 hours. I'm thinking that if my partner want's to discuss it rationally, I can say what I think, but I shouldn't offer my opinion before they have had enough time to feel the feeling..?
I made these decisions a while ago. Me and Alec haven't had these situations happen. With Mya, I haven't really kept to the second decision; or maybe our way of communicating is just so full of analysis that it would be wery strange for me to not express my thoughts. But I'm happy to say that I have been very conscious about this issue since: thus, I make sure that I'm not trying to change any feelings there may be, and I do express that also to Mya. I feel this has worked well for us. :) I'll still have to see how these work with Alec. But it looks good because I've been so conscious now to avoid the tendency to fix.
Mya's coming the day after tomorrow! I'm really happy about that. I feel that since our talks we are in a really stable place. I mean, even more than before. People here talk about building foundations, that's a really good way to put it: that's what I feel we are doing.
Oh yeah, me and Mya also had an enlightening conversation about feelings of safety and uncertainty. It was interesting to discuss how differently we had interpreted recent developments, and what kind of feelings they were raising in both of us. As I have described in earlier posts, in the last few months, poly has become more concrete to Alec, and he has expressed some negative feelings about some aspects, and some needs and boundaries. Mya has been aware of these developments. For her, it has felt like we were in a really safe and stable place for the first ~5 months, and then there were suddengly steps backwards. It felt confusing and raised some uncertainty about her place in my life. I didn't know all this: I mean, even though she told me how she felt, I didn't realise the connection there until later.
For me, the same developments were, at the bottom of it, positive ones, and I had the opposite reaction: they made me feel more secure in the relationship. Before this, I had a (small but nagging) fear that when poly became more concrete, Alec would suddenly realise that he can't do poly after all, that it's not for him, and the whole thing would explode. But after we had the talks about our future and boundaries, I saw that poly had become concrete to him: that he had realised fully that life will never be the same again. (How dramatic. :D) I mean, it signalled to me, that he had actually realised how much me having a girlfriend can and will affect his life, and not just mine. So for me, the discussions made me feel safer.
It may be, that our feelings, mine and Mya's, about the stability and security in the relationship are now actually closer to each other than before. It's not that she feels "too much" insecurity now, but that for her there was an illusion of safety because everything seemed to bee so "perfect". Whereas it is actually the case that now there are more realistic expectations, and also more realistic picture of the potential needs and wants and capabilities of everybody involved. As in, now it looks like there probably will be some kind of (small or large) conflict at some point about something. Before it looked like everything was absolutely perfect, which unnerved me because nothing ever is. This is much better, because instead of it feeling perfect in an unrealistic way, it feels so damn good in a realistic way. :p
I'm now at rory's and she's at the university so I thought I'd write about a revelation I had on my way here. Many hours to just be by yourself and think..
In a quite short amount of time rory has told me in separate conversations:
1) her definition of love and that her love for her friends is the same love she feels for me and Alec
2) she loves a friend of hers, let's call her Ally (I know her too)
3) she would like to have sex with Ally
When she first told me about wanting to have sex with her, I felt bad. The feeling wasn't a very big one, but it existed. I brought it up in quite a few conversations with rory, because it somehow confused me, the whole thing. Me and rory have agreed not to start seeing anybody new until we both feel stable enough in our relationship. First I thought that my feeling a bit bad had to do with that, as in "there's same kind of love than with me and there's a connection and there would be sex, what more do you need for a relationship?". So I thought I was afraid rory would eventually start a relationship with Ally if they had sex and their feelings would deepen. And I sure aren't ready for that yet. I wouldn't mind her having sex with someone random though.
Anyway, since I'm not usually jealous at all, all this made me feel very weird and question my feelings. Where do they really come from? On my way here I realised it really wasn't the sex with Ally that bothered me, but rory's definition of love and the fact that by that definition she loves both me and Ally equally. It hurt me somehow. But then I started to question why shouldn't she love us equally, what's bad about that. The thing is, I have several friends that I love, in a friendly way. I separate romantic love and friend love in a way rory doesn't. So for me it felt like if I loved them all in the same way, there wouldn't be anything "magical" or "indefinable" in romantic love, which I feel there is.
The revelation I had last night was that I have a past trauma about this subject. My first boyfriend never loved me but I loved him. We had this conversation:
Me: I love you
Ex: I don't know what love is so I can't say I love you back. I really like you though.
And this never changed. During our one year long relationship he never once said he loves me and that was eventually the reason we broke up.
So deep down I'm scared that I love rory more than she loves me, or that I love her romantically and she only loves me like a friend.
Today we talked about this and I got some more clarity on what she feels. Rory also said she's not really sure anymore if the way she described her feelings was very accurate (she's not sure if it's entirely similar love for friends and partners, or if she's just had romantic feelings for several of her friends). That conversation made me feel much better and more special. Like the feeling I have for her is not one-sided.
AnnabelMore
11-17-2011, 04:48 PM
I've been posting on my blog about feeling jealous or not jealous about my loves possibly sleeping with other friends too, as it happens. I think the thing to do, for both of us, is to look at their actions. Rory has taken big steps, had hard conversations, made herself very vulnerable, and put a lot of thought and work into having you in her life, just as Gia has for me. Love will always be a bit ineffable in the abstract, but actions speak loud and clear. :) Congrats on your revelation!
I've been posting on my blog about feeling jealous or not jealous about my loves possibly sleeping with other friends too, as it happens. I think the thing to do, for both of us, is to look at their actions. Rory has taken big steps, had hard conversations, made herself very vulnerable, and put a lot of thought and work into having you in her life, just as Gia has for me. Love will always be a bit ineffable in the abstract, but actions speak loud and clear. :) Congrats on your revelation!
Thank you Annabel. :) That is sooo true what you just wrote! It really does come down to actions, I couldn't agree more. I appreciate someone pointing that out for me, I really do.
Actually, after today's conversation with rory and this comment of yours, I don't really care anymore whether she wants to sleep with Ally or not. I know how much I mean to her just by looking at her actions which - as you said - speak loud and clear. Back in my happy place. :) :)
Come to think about it.. The ex-boyfriend that I mentioned earlier. Looking back, I can actually tell from his actions that he didn't love me. The last straw was when I was sick and needed a ride to see a doctor, he didn't want to take me there. He had some pathetic excuse (I don't even remember it anymore, but it really wasn't a good reason) not to take me, so I had to call my mom. Yeah, that was the day I left him because I realised that's how little he cared about me.
^I'm glad you're back to the happy place. :)
I'm noticing a pattern. In my own head. I might have done this more (though I can't recall), but now I've caught myself twice. (This is going to be long, again, brace yourselves.)
For me, it's been obvious from the beginning of poly that I want equal relationships. I did not know, what precisely this means and what it looks like. Before poly I had the same thoughts (about a hypothetical poly situation), and I was thinking along the lines of "if there was a third person with me and Alec, maybe it would be fairest for us to get a divorce (maybe not immediately, but when the new relationship was on solid ground), so that all of us would be at the same legal standing". The idea of divorcing for that reason did make me uncomfortable, though, and nowadays I counter that thought with "even though the legal standing is important, it is not the essence of relationships, and thus we all can be happy and satisfied in the situation as it is". But I take this as an example that shows where I'm originally coming from: an extreme sense of fairness/equality.
Now, I've said this before, but this was influential: Veaux on fairness (http://www.morethantwo.com/polyfairness.html). By fair, or equal, we don't need to mean similar. To quote "symmetry is not the same thing as fairness". Indeed, it isn't always fair to treat everybody the same (see his examples of this: they are good ones). His reference to our mental 5-year old screaming "it's not fair!" is a good one. Though my mental 5-year-old is, surprisingly enough, not interested in what I want but in everything being equal between my partners. (Or, to think of it, maybe it's not so surprising that my inner child would be more inclined to please and keep everybody happy than I am consciously now as an adult.)
I'm afraid that in poly, my mental 5-year-old has the initial standing. When it's two people, I'm satisfied with any arrangement that makes both happy. My mental 5-year-old is all quiet and happy, because even in an asymmetrical situation, we are both the happiest when we get what we want. But somehow, when you throw one more person in the mix, the 5-year-old wakes up screaming, and I have to find really good arguments and explain them in a way that she understands to shut her up. That's a lot of work, I tell you. Particularly since I have to go through the same conversation with her with every little detail.
So far, I've convinced her of many things. Like, for example, it is OK for me to kiss the partner I want to kiss (assuming they have nothing against it) with the other present, without then thinking about "evening the score" by kissing the other one soon, too. I can do what feels natural, and stop keeping track. There are a lot of things like that, I can't even remember them all, because once she shuts up and you start doing it in a organic way (doing what you want because you want it), that starts to feel natural.
Now, I did have a point in this, but it gets lost in all the stuff I'm walking you through for context. I've written before that I feel pressured in the newer relationship to prove that it's as important to me as the old one. I feel that to do this I need to show that I'm prepared to change my life so that there is space for Mya and our relationship. I have no problem with doing this. However, I think there is a problem with the how I feel I need to do this. If the way to prove her importance is to strive for symmetry, I think it will come to conflict with the wants and needs of the people involved.
Now to the pattern. 3 weeks ago, Mya was here. The time point is the one where I made a rambling post about the fairness of the sleep arrangements, wondering whether I should sleep with Alec more nights since I spend more time with Mya when awake. I didn't come to any conclusion about that (because there are so many viewpoints to "fairness" that it's not always possible to objectively define what is fair). However, after thinking about it more, I suddenly noticed the real issue, the actual reason it was on my mind: I wanted to go to sleep with Alec that night instead of Mya (for which the most important reason was to get a longer night's sleep). This is the key to the pattern: I have a hard time recognising my own needs and wants. And there, I was unconsciously trying to wrap what I wanted into a nice little package of what is fair. I wasn't aware of that at first, I was spending a long time thinking about that particular issue, until it suddenly hit me that my motivation for coming back to it was not so much in fairness, but in my own want to do in a certain way.
I say pattern, because I had a similar epiphany yesterday about another issue. Not too different, it's about sleeping arrangements, but not so much about the ones going on now (they feel pretty much all right, although I might want to think about that more), but the ones in the future, when we all are at the same city. It's 3 years away, and yet I'm coming back to them over and over. In conversations with Mya, I've expressed things like "Alec may not be happy with dividing nights 50-50", and "it might be for the common good for us to sleep a bit less with each other and a bit more with the men (since they'll be sleeping alone when we sleep together). I now realise that those things are crap. I mean, technically they are true: Alec may not feel good about sleeping with me only every other day (and that is somewhat likely), and if the men don't enjoy sleeping alone and me and Mya are happy with fewer nights together, it might be a good solution to divide time a bit differently. But it finally hit me that those are not the reasons why this issue is on my mind. The reason is that 50-50 divide of nights is actually not what I want.
The reason for this is that I feel like sleeping together, and the same goes for many other everyday routines, is a more essential part of my relationship with Alec, than it is in my relationship with Mya. I think pillars might be a good metaphor. In my relationship with Alec, I'd say there are three main pillars to hold the relationship: one of them is physical closeness (all touch, sexual and non-sexual), the other is the everyday life we share when awake (including things like eating together, watching dvds, talking about our days), and the third is the time we share when going to bed and sleeping together. Obviously there are other aspects to our relationship, but these are really what holds us together. My relationship with Mya is different. With her, conversations and talking are maybe the most important pillar. Another important one is physical closeness, to which I inlude the both meanings of sleeping together. I do like to share everyday life with her, and I do like to have deep conversations with Alec; but the dynamics are different, so different things are essential. Thus, I think having a 50-50 divide of nights between Mya and Alec would be somewhat harmful to my relationship with Alec, while it is not essential to my relationship with Mya. Right now it feels like maybe sleeping two nights a week with Mya might work well, but obviously we'll see how everybody feels at that point.
I had a talk about this with Mya earlier, one where I was afraid (again to say this is what I want) and then cried because of relief I felt when this was no big news, and no big deal to her. She understood my reasons completely, and did not take it to mean that I care for her less or something like that. We agreed that I will try to be more conscious of the pattern, and also if she happens to notice me coming back again and again to same issue, she will ask me if there is something behind there that I would want. Happy happy. :)
nycindie
11-17-2011, 06:50 PM
Rory and Mya, I have to say that I think you two are a pair of cool, thoughtful, eloquent, and together chicks.
Wow, nycindie, thank you so much. :) Your words made me feel really good, and I'm also happy to hear you think that, because I have a high admiration of your independent and yet loving approach to relationships.
--
Mya's now been here for a bit over two days. Last time she visited there were quite many emotions for all of us, particularly early in the week when she had just come here. This time it's been less emotional and more stable and relaxed. That's good, mind you. I'm not completely rid of the feelings of anxiety that rise in regards to both Alec and Mya being happy all the time, but the feelings have only come up maybe once a day for a short while. I've been able to let go of the anxious feelings pretty well when they come, so it hasn't been so tiring.
Me and Mya went to check out a gay bar yesterday! I haven't really been anywhere here, even though I've lived here for over a year now. All the gay venues are in the city centre, and it's just too much effort to go if I don't have anybody to go with (I don't have friends here yet and Alec doesn't enjoy going to gay bars). It was really fun! I'm thinking we'll make it a goal to always go somewhere gay when she's visiting here. :D Alec went out with some people he's getting to know here, and apparently one of them asked why I and Mya didn't join them, so he told him what the deal was. I was glad to hear that. The guy may or may not become a close friend, but I'm glad that he's becoming comfortable enough to talk about the situation to some people. :) His friends or family don't know yet, and I think it's good that he waits until he's ready to come out, there's no hurry. However, it would be good for him to have somebody to talk to besides me. Still, I do think he's going to have a lot of explaining to his closest people about poly (and, well, most of them don't know I'm bi, either), so I get why he would want to wait a bit, and he'll be in a better position to explain once it doesn't feel so strange to him (the strangeness factor is clearly decreasing all the time).
Today we're going to just hang out at home, and we have some really good food. So eating, playing games, and watching a movie (+ some internet time, as you can see) are in the plans for today. Tomorrow we'll make a trip together, since we now have the car and so can drive somewhere. I'm not too happy about all the costs having a car brings, but Alec needed it for commuting, and I have to admit it is fun to be able to just go and explore our surroundings!
Rory and Mya, I have to say that I think you two are a pair of cool, thoughtful, eloquent, and together chicks.
Thank you, that's really nice to hear. :o
Alec went out with some people he's getting to know here, and apparently one of them asked why I and Mya didn't join them, so he told him what the deal was. I was glad to hear that. The guy may or may not become a close friend, but I'm glad that he's becoming comfortable enough to talk about the situation to some people. :)
I was so happy and proud of Alec when he told us this! :) I'm really glad that he's started to tell people about the situation.
...which brings us to me telling people. I've told about rory to everyone who matters in my life, except my dad and his wife. I'm the worst liar in the world so this is getting more and more difficult for me. :( Dad and his wife visited me and JJ a few days before I came here. I said nothing about the trip. Today he called me. And for some reason (:confused:) he asked if I was in my home country. :eek: I couldn't lie so I told him no. He asked where I was. I told him the country, which again was no lie. The good part in this is that he knows I visit my friends in this country anyway. Then he asked why I was here and that's when I lied and told him I'm meeting my friends. He sounded a bit baffled by that because I just was here few weeks ago (and he knew that) and I guess it's not very normal to visit your friends in a different country every month, is it? :p He is getting suspicious, I can tell. I have to tell him soon. I hate lying and I even get physical symptoms from it, like stomach ache etc. I was an easy kid and a teenager, since I could never lie to my mom or anybody else close to me. She could tell right away if I did so I stopped trying quite early. :rolleyes:
I just realised that this is the first time in my life that I'm spending significant amounts of time in a place where I haven't got much else than my partner. In my relationship with JJ it has always been the other way around. I've gone to places and he's either gone with me or stayed where he is but visited me often. I've visited him too, but it's a bit different because he's always lived in a place where I also have friends and family so I haven't been there only because of him.
So, it's been an experience. This time I've meditated quite a lot which is really good. I've read a book. I've learned some new skills regarding my line of work which will also be really good for me in the future. I've spent a lot of time on the internet. I'm just used to spending more time with people so it is an adjustement. Having this experience made me realise how little I really need that alone time. It's next to nothing. I think I'm well suited to be the hinge of a vee because I feel like I have almost endless amounts of energy. Being the leg of a vee can work too but then I need some other activities and friends to spend time with. It's going to be interesting to see how our relationship dynamic will work when rory comes to see me and JJ in January. I'm feeling really good about it and hopefully I'll be able to enjoy every moment of it. :)
I think the situation will be better for me once me and JJ move to the same country as rory and Alec. Then me and rory can visit each other more often and maybe not such long periods of time at once. That way I don't have to come up with things to do when she's not with me, I can just go back home.
Having said that, I think things have gone quite well this time. It's been less intense (in a good way) and rory has gotten at least some amount of alone time and has been able to do some studying too. :)
Mya's now been here for a bit over two days. Last time she visited there were quite many emotions for all of us, particularly early in the week when she had just come here. This time it's been less emotional and more stable and relaxed. That's good, mind you. I'm not completely rid of the feelings of anxiety that rise in regards to both Alec and Mya being happy all the time, but the feelings have only come up maybe once a day for a short while. I've been able to let go of the anxious feelings pretty well when they come, so it hasn't been so tiring.
The bolded part is my conclusion about the past (little-over-a) week Mya spent here. And something happened to the anxiety, too: after last weekend I had a discussion with Mya, there was a *snap*, and it was gone. Holy crap, what a relief. Before that, the intense anxiety would only come at times, but there was a small yet constant nagging feeling, which would not let me relax whenever I was with both of them.
There was something about what Mya said talking to me about her metamourship (hey, a useful poly term? :D) with Alec. At first she was wondering if there are ways forward so that they could become closer friends. But after a while she concluded that actually, the situation is maybe the best left as it is, and if the friendship will deepen on its own that will happen, but if not that is fine, too. Mya and Alec get along very well and all of us have fun together; they care about each other's well being and wish each other well; and they are able to communicate about things if the need arises. And really, that is all you need in a metamour relationship. It seems that there was conflict for Mya because often when she meets somebody she likes, she works very actively towards the goal of a deep, loving friendship, but she also felt that things were working well in our situation. If she were to seek a deeper connection, there would also be more risk of conflict. After all, you always need more compatibility the closer the relationship. At the moment, when Mya visits, she and Alec live sort of like roommates. Both of them respect each other's spaces, but like to come together and hang out when both of them feel like it.
Anyway, Mya told me the conclusion that she had come to: that she would let go of expectation in her metamourship with Alec, and rather let things either be what they are or develop on their own as they will. And I guess I've been worrying about those kind of things more than I've realised, because I felt relieved about that. I guess for a control-freak there is a lot to worry about, when you've got two people you love and who you wish to like each other.
Relating to the anxiety, and the now-lack-of, I realised that poly has brought up the strangest things to me. Way back when Alec and I started a relationship (I was 16), we had quite a lot of fights over misunderstandings. There was a pattern: he would do something or say something (usually very small) and I would take it as a clue about him being angry or sad or whatever, and then I wouldn't let it go until he'd get really frustrated: at that point I would usually realise/believe that I had mis-interpreted him in the first place, but we'd already be in a fight. These kinds of fights became rarer and rarer over time, it was mostly a problem during the first years we were together. Lately, there has been an occasional situation that has reminded me of this: I would mis-interpret something, or look for constant reassurance that he is OK, sometimes up until a point where he gets frustrated.
When we first started poly, and after he said he is fine with me starting another relationship, I asked him repeatedly things like "are you sure you're ok" or "are you sure you don't feel bad?". But then after maybe one or two weeks I realised I can't keep doing that for two reasons. Firstly, I have to trust him when he says he's OK. I need to trust him to communicate to me if there's a problem, and if he chooses not to, there is nothing I can do about that. Trust is the only option there is for me, because I can't control his actions. Plus, it is disrespectful of me not to trust him when he's given me no reason to doubt him. Secondly, by constantly asking him "is poly OK to you?" I was sending a message that if he suddenly changed his mind, I would be open to going back to mono without hesitation. And that really wasn't the case.
After realising that, I have stopped asking. But unconsciously, I've still been on the lookout for any signs of trouble. High alert for any signs of discomfort from Alec. And I have tried to fix it, and rationalise him out of it, whenever he's shared any negative feelings about poly (which, by the way, there were absolutely none during this visit :eek: :)).
I see now, that all that revolves around guilt. No other emotion is as difficult for me to get a handle on as guilt. And because of all that lovely societal conditioning, I have been feeling guilty about having two partners. As much as I know that Alec and I agreed to a poly relationship together, my feelings have been telling me "he wouldn't be in this situation / feel this way if it wasn't for me". Enter guilt, enter constant anxiety.
But as I wrote before, the anxiety disappeared. Maybe my head has finally convinced my heart about the fact that I am not responsible for Alec's feelings. And if I let guilt control my behaviour, I put both of us in an unfair situation. Myself, for I will feel constant anxiety for things I have no control over. Him, for letting him only feel the good sides of polyamory, and effectively denying him the right to sometimes feeling bad (and simultaneously making it impossible for him to get proper support from me).
I've been writing about me and Alec, but some of what I wrote applies to my relationship with Mya, as well. I haven't had as much guilt, and I think that's because she's also married, i.e. she's entering poly just as "voluntarily" as I am (as are obviously our husbands, too, because they have happily consented, but it's still felt different since we have more vested interests).
Elsewhere on the forum I came out with the fact that in my relationship with Alec there is an agreement that by some people's definition is one-penis-policy, and by other's not. I'll write something about how we got to where we are. Here's how our opening up has happened.
-- After 4 years of happy monogamous relationship life
me: "You know, I've been thinking. I feel really secure in our relationship. I trust you completely, and I know you always have my best interest at heart. I also know you love me very very much, and that you are committed to, and satisfied in a relationship with me. And I feel secure in myself: I know I'm a lovable person, and I can see why you want to be with me. There's this expectation in relationships that you're not supposed to have sex with anybody but your partner. I understand why many people want this, and I don't see any problem with it. However, I don't feel jealous at the thought of you sleeping with somebody else. So from now on, you can do that if the opportunity presents itself you feel like it."
Alec: "Well, I don't really think I would want to do that."
me: "Yeah, well, if you feel like it at some point, just so you know it's fine by me."
Alec: "Ok. You know, I haven't really thought about these things much. I don't know why it is, and it may be completely irrational, but for some reason I don't feel jealous at the thought of you having sex with another woman."
me: "You mean I could do that?"
Alec: "Yeah, if you want to it's fine by me."
me: "Wow. Well, I'm definitely interested if I get the chance." :)
-- 3 years of happy non-monogamous relationship life, during which I enjoy lots of kisses, some hot sexual action, and some really hot sex. Alec feels compersion about the fact that I'm enjoying myself, is satisfied in our relationship, and doesn't feel like having any sexual action with anybody else, although he kisses a female friend of his.
me: "You know this woman I travelled to see and had sex with last week? Well, I think I have feelings for her."
Alec: "That's nice, you seem really happy." :)
me: "I'd like to start a relationship with her and see where things go, but only if that's ok with you (and her husband)."
Alec: "I'm fine with that, I don't see why it would bother me."
me: "You realise that if we start a relationship, there is a possibility that I fall in love with her, and want to share my life with her, and spend a lot of time with her?"
Alec: "As long as you'll still want to be together with me, as well, I'm good with that."
-- (soon) 8 months of happy poly life, details of which can be read in this journal.
Now then on to the what-may-or-may-not-be-an-One-Penis-Policy. Anybody see why that feels completely irrelevant to me? First, I was completely satisfied in a monogamous relationship when I was in one. I never needed any freedoms for myself. Second, I am so very happy and satisfied with what I have. I feel blessed. I really appreciate Alec for being willing to walk through opening up to poly with me even as he has no interest in being in another relationship himself. He really puts my happiness on the same level as his own, without compromising too much on his own well-being, and that is one reason I love him.
Now, there is also the aspect that my sexuality has been going through changes, that is, I'm steadily moving towards 6 on Kinsey scale. Right now, if I weren't in a loving sexual relationship with a man, I would class myself as a lesbian. But even though that's pretty relevant, it's still irrelevant, since openness was never a need for me.
fuchka
11-27-2011, 01:44 PM
Baby steps.
I had the same mantra when I first got into an actual poly situation :) Generally onto "more confident strides" now, but every know and then I'm humbled by a stumble. But yeah, as you know: communication for the win :)
Love the format of your blog and happy lovin!
I had the same mantra when I first got into an actual poly situation :) Generally onto "more confident strides" now, but every know and then I'm humbled by a stumble. But yeah, as you know: communication for the win :)
Love the format of your blog and happy lovin!
Thanks for the comment fuchka!
Communication really is the key, isn't it. :)
I think we really need to make up names for the three cities we (especially me) keep talking about. They play such a big part in my life and in our LDR that it sometimes gets a bit difficult to talk about them without names.
During my last trip back home I started counting how much I've actually traveled this year and yeah, it was quite a lot. More than I thought. You can blame the whole global warming on me! :p I've flown 11 times this year. Many times the journey has included traveling from A to B via C (and sometimes via D as well), so if I count every individual flight, the number is 26. On top of that I've spent about 150 hours on long distance trains and buses. Oh my. :eek:
I've been thinking about boundaries a lot lately. I wrote somewhere on the forum that I have a boundary in my relationship with JJ that I wouldn't want him dating or sleeping with my closest friends. I think I would feel equally bad if rory did the same, but there has been no need for that boundary in our relationship because she hasn't spent much time with my friends (well obviously since we live in different countries). I talked about this boundary of mine with rory the other day and she asked some good questions about why I have it.
I have this one friend who I've known since childhood and we have a perfect friendship. I mean perfect as in I can't think of a single way to make it better, it is just the kind of friendship I want. So, if one of my partners started dating her, our friendship would never be the same again. I guess that's the fundamental reason why I would feel bad about it. Because I can't imagine the friendship with her getting better, it would have to become worse if it changed. I couldn't talk about my partners with her the same way I can now and she couldn't either. We would lose that part of the friendship and many more, I imagine.
But then there are a few friends that I could well imagine in a relationship with my partner in a way that wouldn't hurt the friendship. In some cases I could even imagine it improving the friendship: me and the friend could spend more time together and maybe become closer than before.
There are a couple of friends that I would like to keep to myself in a very selfish way. The childhood friend I mentioned, she's one of them. I wouldn't even like the idea of her becoming too good friends with my partners, let alone lovers. I hate myself for saying that because it sounds so awful. :( I know I don't own her and if things happen, they happen. And like I wrote in the other thread, this boundary is very much negotiable. So if my partner asked for it, I would reconsider and probably would let them do what they want in the end. Who am I to stop them? But it would take time to get used to the idea and let that friendship go as we knew it.
Although I will always want a part of my life to be just mine. A hobby, a friend, something. It's part of the ideal independant life that I want for myself. For being polyamorous I seem to be quite bad at sharing. :o
AnnabelMore
11-29-2011, 05:57 PM
Because I can't imagine the friendship with her getting better, it would have to become worse if it changed.
I'm not saying this is a boundary you ought to drop, I just wanted to give a shout out to the idea that there's usually a third option. If something can't become better that doesn't mean it has to become worse by changing -- it can instead become different but equally good.
I'm not saying this is a boundary you ought to drop, I just wanted to give a shout out to the idea that there's usually a third option. If something can't become better that doesn't mean it has to become worse by changing -- it can instead become different but equally good.
You've got a point there, Annabel. :) The reason why I was thinking about that boundary and wrote about it was to be able to deal with it better and hopefully to get rid of it at some point. I have absolutely no desire to control my partners and be the one telling them not to do things, so I very much want to learn to feel comfortable with as many things as possible. I want to dig deep, find out why I feel uncomfortable and process it. So I'm happy to hear all kinds of feedback about my thoughts on this. :)
I want to write about love and attachment and expectations.
I've been processing those a lot since starting poly and even before that. I've reached a point lately where it feels quite easy for me to love without linking much expectation into it. It feels like loving without expectation is the most suitable approach for me towards relationships. In no way do I do that perfectly, but it is becoming easier.
To clarify what I'm talking about, I'll give you an example. A few years back I had sex with a friend of mine whom I liked a lot. It was a one time thing, but our friendship kept on deepening after that. I would have been open to having sex again, but my friend was not; and that made me feel somewhat sad and a bit rejected, but at no point did I let that affect our friendship. I have then made my peace with the fact that our relationship won't have that sexual side, and I no longer feel sad about that.
Now, I know that text talks about sex, but there is more to the picture. Had the feelings been mutual, I think I would have wanted a relationship (and the poly discussion with Alec would have come some years earlier). But they weren't, and when I talk about making peace with that, I also talk about letting go of attachment to an outcome. My feelings for my friend have not gone away, but they don't demand reciprocity. I do like to know that I am liked and cared for, but I do think our feelings are on different levels. I am fine with that, and allow our relationship be what it is.
Another instance where I've thought about these things is my friendship with Ally (who Mya mentioned in an earlier post). I have begun to realise that my desire to have sex with a person comes from a connection. It doesn't have to be deep enough that I would class it love, but qualitatively it is no different. I need to like and care for the person to want to have sex with them. Liking and caring for a person are also the components that love consists of, for me. So these things can confuse me a bit sometimes. Anyway, I wasn't going to go into the definition of love again. So where was I? :D
Yes, connection. Lately, I've felt like I would like to deepen my connection with Ally. It's not a pressing need, but I feel like it would be nice to become closer than we are now. Also, I've felt like I would be open to having sex with her, if the situation came up, and she was open to it. I've discussed the possibility quite a lot with Mya, and talking about it with her has helped me to figure out where I stand with it. She feels that if she was in my position, she would definitely not want to actually have sex because of the risks: the emotions may deepen into love, and thus it would hurt that there can't be a partnership (which there can't be between me and Ally for many reasons, the most obvious of which have to do with geography and neither of us having the practical or emotional availability for an additional relationship at least any time soon). I can understand her point of view, since that's really what culture tells us will inevitably happen if emotions are involved: that if you can't be in a relationship with a person you love, it will cause you unreasonable amounts of hurt. And I think that's how it works for some people. But I don't think that's inevitable for everybody.
If I were to have sex with Ally, it is likely that my feelings would deepen. I would probably feel closer and more connected to her. However, that wouldn't change anything respective to our circumstances, so even if that did cause me to desire a relationship with her, it wouldn't be possible. I don't deny there isn't a slight chance that it would hurt not being able to become more. But I highly doubt it would be in any way unbearable. That's just how life is, you can't always get everything you want. I can live with whatever feelings there are, and they don't dictate my actions.
Now then, it seems that I am pretty close to loving without expectation in general. But today I started thinking about my partnerships, and I feel that my approach is somewhat different there. I mean, I feel pretty unattached in terms of what a partnership must look like. I am open to LDR, open to my partners having children with other people (was even when in mono relationship, which is a hell of a lot less common than in poly circles). Basically, as long as my partner treats me with respect and love, our relationship is a (not THE but A) priority to them, and we are reasonably compatible, I'm good.
However, while I haven't let NRE effect my behaviour and judgement in my everyday life, it has ganged up with general exitement about poly, and as a result I feel quite attached to our happy N-shaped poly tangle, and to being in a poly relationship. And while, fortunately, I'm no longer teen enough to get engaged after a month of dating like I did with Alec, I can't help that in my mind I am really committed to Mya, and have been for many months. I'm not scared of commitment in any way, and I guess I've been lucky with her, just as I turned out to be with Alec, in that it looks like we really are compatible as partners. Yet, I feel that there is an issue here, but it's hard to pin it down. There is definitely a desire in me to share my life with Mya. But I also feel like the combination of NRE, New Poly Exitement, and strive for equality has put me on a conveyorbelt, on which I move towards the goal that is not so much decided on as it is a given from the beginning.
I don't know if that makes sense? Example. I feel like I really want to get (non-officially) married to Mya in the future. Now, what if I wasn't sure about it? Yet, I am already (officially) married to Alec. So it can't be that I oppose marriage in gereral. Thus, if I didn't want to marry Mya, that would signify (to me, her, and everybody else) that I care for her less than I do for Alec.
I feel that there is not much better advice than "let relationships be what they are". Yet I feel like because of our starting point, me and Mya have restricted room to figure out what it is our relationship is, and that some end points are more acceptable than others.
Wow, I'm finally getting to the bottom of it.
A radical thought (to me, maybe others will go "DUH" when reading this): what if the best thing to do is to drop the the notion of equality/fairness altogether?
I've never questioned the feeling I've had since few years back regarding poly. That thought: why would somebody who is single want to start a relationship with me, when I am already married and cannot offer what a single person can? Is it even ethical of me to even start a relationship with another person when I am restricted in what I can offer her?
Well, universe showed me the first flaw it there: the person in question may be already married themselves. Well, that solves everything, because the "things I can't give" she already has satisfied in her marriage, right? Wrong. Her needs from me are pretty much a separate thing from her needs from him. A married person may want/need a lot to be in a relationship, and indeed I've found myself wanting a lot from her even as I'm already married. I've found that it has a lot more to do with the personalities of, and the dynamics between, the people involved.
However, there is a bigger flawed assumption that no doubt has to do with my difficulties in defining my own personal boundaries: that were I single I would have no constraints to "what I can offer" OR that the only constraints now come from being married to Alec. Thus, as long as I was monogamous with Alec, there were no limits to what I can offer to him, right? Oh, please. Just writing that down I can see it so completely not true.
It comes to something I'm still trying to learn to understand: a person can't meet all their partner's needs/wants. Funnily enough, since becoming poly I'm really flexible in what get from my partners as long as they treat me with love and respect. What is harder for me to internalise is that I am not responsible to provide everything my partner wants or needs.
There's the problem with aiming for equality or fairness; it includes entitlement, a right to something from me. When actually all my partner has a right to is what I have a right to from them: to be respected, loved, and to be taken into consideration. Not that those are small things, they are huge. But it is obvious to me that I treat anybody I care about like that.
Equality/fairness includes assumption of entitlement. It will no longer be my aim. When a partner of mine tells me they want or need something, I will make it a priority (again, not the but a priority), as I always do. I will try to focus on that more, and only worry about fairness if somebody else expresses that something is unfair to them.
AnnabelMore
12-04-2011, 02:07 PM
what if the best thing to do is to drop the the notion of equality/fairness altogether?
...
Equality/fairness includes assumption of entitlement. It will no longer be my aim. When a partner of mine tells me they want or need something, I will make it a priority (again, not the but a priority), as I always do. I will try to focus on that more, and only worry about fairness if somebody else expresses that something is unfair to them.
Beautiful! Really, this could be a "poly lessons" essay, very important stuff that we all need to at least be reminded of now and then. :)
As often as I think about stuff, or am dealing with some new insight, you cover this as well. Really scary somehow how similar all this seems to be. Is there a pattern one has to manage and go through when discovering poly? Sometimes I get the feeling that I can stop blogging, you do it beautifully :p I came to the same conclusion three nights ago, when I discussed the discrepancies between our relationships (me - Lin, me - Sward) with Sward.
I don't know what's wrong with me. Lately, for some reason, I've started to have these bad feelings, which I guess you could classify as jealousy. I think. :confused: Before poly I was so not jealous that I hardly knew what that feeling was. After we started, same thing, still not jealous. But it's a very specific situation where this new feeling comes up: JJ in a bar in our hometown hitting on a woman. He had one date with a potential fwb few months ago, that didn't feel bad. He has kissed a few women, one of them in front of me, that didn't feel bad. He has had feelings for someone else and made out with her, that didn't feel bad. I guess the difference in the bar situation is that anyone can see it, and without knowing the agreement we have, feel sorry for me after seeing him getting it on with someone else. Because it's such a small town, you can't really go to a bar without seeing anyone who knows you. I absolutely hate the thought of someone thinking (and maybe gossiping about) that JJ is cheating on me and "poor Mya, there she is sitting alone at home while her husband is doing all that". :rolleyes: I don't know if it's really jealousy or more something like a worry about my/our reputation in our hometown?
And also, now I have a new thing to worry about. The last time me and JJ went out together with friends, he danced with someone for a while. He said she hinted that she would like to sleep with him. When we discussed this at home, I asked whether he would've done it if I hadn't been there. He said that he probably would've. The thing is, I happen to know things about this woman (again, small town :rolleyes:, she's a friend of a friend). And she means drama. Baaad drama. I'm actually really happy JJ didn't do anything with her besides dance, because I can't just distance myself from his life completely and I'm pretty sure that act would've had concequences, bad ones. In general, I fear that he makes bad decisions if he decides to sleep with someone he just met. That's why I didn't feel bad about the date, even if it would've ended in them sleeping together, because at least then he would've known something about her. The same thing with the woman he had feelings for. But someone random - who knows what kind of things she would bring to our lives!
Ok, well maybe these things are not jealousy, but the result of them is the same: I feel like I should set a boundary. But I don't really want to. I want him to do whatever makes him happy and doesn't make me incredibly unhappy. But are these things any of my business? Should I just let go of all the worries? If so, how do I do that?
AnnabelMore
12-09-2011, 12:07 AM
I think that asking to know about a woman before he sleeps with her so you can give your two cents is perfectly reasonable and not too limiting at all. After all, you share your body with this man on a regular basis, if he unknowingly sleeps with someone who's hiding disease or drama up her sleeve it will badly affect you!
As for your concern about people thinking he's cheating on you, why don't you accompany him to the bar a few times and make your approval clear, like come over and kiss him on the cheek while he's chatting up a girl, wink at her, tell her he's a catch and say "I'm heading home now to skype with my girlfriend but you two have a wonderful evening, k?" Then grin at him and say "text me if you're staying out late, handsome."
That would send the message to the town loud and clear, but also might be a liiittle more out and proud than you're ready to be? ;)
I think that asking to know about a woman before he sleeps with her so you can give your two cents is perfectly reasonable and not too limiting at all. After all, you share your body with this man on a regular basis, if he unknowingly sleeps with someone who's hiding disease or drama up her sleeve it will badly affect you!
It isn't too limiting? I'm relieved you think that. :) Somehow in my head it still is a bit too much, if what he wants is to hook up with someone he just met and not form too much of a bond with her (this isn't really the case, but I guess sometimes he would like to do just that), so I would be denying him the exact thing he wants.
As for your concern about people thinking he's cheating on you, why don't you accompany him to the bar a few times and make your approval clear, like come over and kiss him on the cheek while he's chatting up a girl, wink at her, tell her he's a catch and say "I'm heading home now to skype with my girlfriend but you two have a wonderful evening, k?" Then grin at him and say "text me if you're staying out late, handsome."
That would send the message to the town loud and clear, but also might be a liiittle more out and proud than you're ready to be? ;)
Haha, I love that! :D :D I could actually see myself do that in an ideal world. But yeaaah... A little bit too out and proud like you guessed. :o But that attitude is something to think about, even if I wouldn't say that in the situation. Then again, if there are rumours to be spread, I'd prefer them to be about us being open than us cheating on each other. :rolleyes:
nycindie
12-09-2011, 01:09 AM
I don't think it's unreasonable to express concerns about potential lovers who are drama queens and known to be problematic. Nor do I think it's too limiting to say, "I'd feel better if I at least met someone before you'd have sex with her." That wouldn't limit his dating, nor is it a veto, but just something that makes you more comfortable.
AnnabelMore
12-09-2011, 01:30 AM
Yeah, Eric is all about the casual sex but would never dream of sleeping with a woman without Gia's "ok". The approval of the woman with whom he plans to spend the rest of his life is just way more important than that tiny extra degree of spontaneity.
At the very least, maybe he could text you the woman's name if he thinks things are heading in that direction, so if you know problematic things about her you can say "not her please!" But really, while some couples might not need this, I see waiting until you can just meet her once, even briefly, as perfectly normal, fair, and respectful. The waiting, if he meets her and establishes a rapport when you're not there could make it all the hotter, yeah?
Thanks for your insights, nycindie and Annabel! :)
I talked about this with JJ today and it turns out we actually had some miscommunication that last time we were out. Probably due to drinking he responded quite differently to my questions then than now when he's sober and thinking clearly. He said he wouldn't have gone with that drama queen and that he actually has some "standards" who he is going to sleep with. He said he would like to know the person a bit before having sex.
I don't really care whether I've met the person myself before they have sex. I just want him to use his best judgement when choosing sex partners. Now I feel better knowing he actually does think about these things more than I thought. :) And he also said he has his own reputation to think about, too, not just mine/ours. This could affect his job so he doesn't want to be too out either.
To top it off, he said he would rather have a girlfriend or a fwb than several one night stands. That's a relief, because that's what I'd prefer, too. I really like the idea of him having a girlfriend. :) The problem at the moment is location though. We're leaving this town in 9 months, so that's going to be a challenge if he wants to find someone now..
Annabel thank you! :)
Phy I often have the same feelings about things you write. :p I think the fact that our poly relationships are almost same "ages" factors into it. I do think there are some common patterns, though they do probably vary a lot between individuals, too.
I thought some more about the equality issue. Mya pointed out that it can serve as a good tool when starting out a poly relationship. I think I agree with that. When I think about it, the goal of equality may have been one reason that the transition to poly has worked out well for us. And I don't mean to say that other paths cannot work just as well. :) But I do think it has been useful, because in the beginning it's difficult to know very well what people may want or need in the relationship. And I think some concept of fairness is a good starting point for negotiation. Another option might be to change things only when somebody expressed a want or need. I think that can work from the beginning if people are experienced in poly (or have spectacular communication and relationship skills), and have a quite good grasp of what they want already. However, I think it has been beneficial for our relationship to start from "what we have felt is fair". And at this point, 8 months into it, I think it is time to let go of that, and continue building more direct communication. I think all of us are ready for that. :)
I was thinking today about what else there is that has made our poly journey go smoothly. Sometimes when reading other people's experiences I feel that there are odds against us, since we have two marriages opening up to poly simultaneously (even as both of them have had varying degrees of sexual or/and emotional freedom). Also, Alec is pretty much mono, and apparently that often makes poly way harder. But then again, it's all just statistics, or really we don't even have statistics (would be cool, though! :p )... It's just the picture you gather from poly-related writings around the interweb. Yet, well, quite a big proportion of the active writers on this forum have well-working relationships that are mono/poly, so what do you know. I digress..
Yes, I was going to write that I think one approach that works for me personally is that in certain respects I don't put "romantic relationships" in any special category. I have never held my relationship with Alec to be somehow categorically more important than my other relationships just because it's a romantic relationship. (This may seem obvious to many here, but I feel it's something many people in romantic relationships do.) And I've never put his needs above the needs of other people I care about just because he's my partner. I've always made plans with other people individually and treated all my relationships as separate entities. Thus, it doesn't occur to me to change any of that when entering into poly relationship. Why would I suddenly start asking him permission (ouch at even the wording) for going for a coffee with a person I have a relationship with when it's a romantic relationship? Or for scheduling an overnight visit? It doesn't make sense to me that any of my practices would change merely because it's a romantic relationship instead of a friendship. And I think that makes for a healthy basis for my relationship with Mya: the fact that both me and her give the relationship the room to grow in the first instance independently of the whole poly configuration.
calya
12-10-2011, 05:21 AM
edited to add:
WHOOPS! I wrote this apparently two posts behind. I'm sorry. I see you've talked to JJ.
I am so new to this so please please please correct me if I'm mistaken.
But isn't part of having a partner, or many partners, trusting them and their decisions? Both of you acknowledge that your actions and other loves impact each other. Don't we need to trust our lover and partner to use their own judgement and act according to that knowledge? If you are concerned about how his actions will negatively affect you, are you really trusting him to do that?
And isn't asking to meet someone before he sleeps with them, while probably not a bad idea at all, I mean who hasn't slept with someone to realize it was a big mistake afterwards, possibly asking him to alter his lovestyle? If his style is physical before emotional would he really want to bring her into the rest of his life first?
I know I, and I think I remember reading you, need a connection before getting physical. I want to be friends first. But not everyone is that way.
It might be wiser to just talk to JJ about it. Maybe remind yourselves of the impacts of seeing other people, or having your relationship exposed to the wrong person and then tell him you trust him to consider that before getting involved with anyone, just as he trusts you.
fuchka
12-10-2011, 09:44 PM
Lately, for some reason, I've started to have these bad feelings, which I guess you could classify as jealousy.
I love how nuanced emotion can be. Not sure if this is the same feeling you experienced, but I had a similar "bad feeling" earlier this year, and it was helpful to me to 'decode' it a bit further...
For me, when a partner is getting friendly with someone else, I have these conflicting desires. One, is the desire for them to be happy, and safe, and not get messed with. The other is the desire for them to have the freedom to explore, make mistakes.
I found that when Carob started seeing someone else earlier this year, I had a feeling you could call jealousy... but it was more, well, loss of influence and fears around that. I wanted her to treat him well, I wanted him to have a good time. None of this was in my control, though. (In my situation, I didn't know the person too well but I reckon if I had a sense she was "bad drama", these small feelings of disquiet would have been harder to quell.)
It was a really interesting perspective for me, as I understood what Sage had gone through when I got closer to C... you relinquish some of the ability to care for this person, they become more vulnerable and they're going into a space where you might not be able to help them in the same way as you could with other things (for example, if I was starting a new, challenging job).
Yup, that is a feeling you could class as 'jealousy'... but in most cases it's helpful to unpack it further :) Sounds you've resolved this situation with JJ, but your story connected with me so I thought I'd share anyway x
Thank you calya and fuchka for your input!
Yes, the problem is pretty much solved now, but I'm still grateful for your replies because they made me think about this even more and that's never a bad thing. :)
But isn't part of having a partner, or many partners, trusting them and their decisions? Both of you acknowledge that your actions and other loves impact each other. Don't we need to trust our lover and partner to use their own judgement and act according to that knowledge? If you are concerned about how his actions will negatively affect you, are you really trusting him to do that?
The problem was exactly that, I felt like I couldn't trust his judgement if he was going to sleep with that drama queen. But it turned out that he was actually just joking about going with her and I just didn't get it at the time and took it seriously. Now that we talked about it, I feel more at ease with this and his decisions in the future.
I thought more about the boundary thing and I still think I don't want him to ask my permission for sleeping with anyone. I don't want veto or anything that resembles that. I don't want much power over him, I want him to make his own decisions. I just need to get comfortable with whatever decisions he'll make and it's easier now that I know he wouldn't do anything crazy.
I love how nuanced emotion can be. Not sure if this is the same feeling you experienced, but I had a similar "bad feeling" earlier this year, and it was helpful to me to 'decode' it a bit further...
For me, when a partner is getting friendly with someone else, I have these conflicting desires. One, is the desire for them to be happy, and safe, and not get messed with. The other is the desire for them to have the freedom to explore, make mistakes.
I found that when Carob started seeing someone else earlier this year, I had a feeling you could call jealousy... but it was more, well, loss of influence and fears around that. I wanted her to treat him well, I wanted him to have a good time. None of this was in my control, though. (In my situation, I didn't know the person too well but I reckon if I had a sense she was "bad drama", these small feelings of disquiet would have been harder to quell.)
It was a really interesting perspective for me, as I understood what Sage had gone through when I got closer to C... you relinquish some of the ability to care for this person, they become more vulnerable and they're going into a space where you might not be able to help them in the same way as you could with other things (for example, if I was starting a new, challenging job).
Yup, that is a feeling you could class as 'jealousy'... but in most cases it's helpful to unpack it further :) Sounds you've resolved this situation with JJ, but your story connected with me so I thought I'd share anyway x
Wow, fuchka, you really hit the nail in the head with this one, so thanks for sharing! :) That sounds very very familiar what you describe. I especially love the bolded parts. This has helped me to understand myself more and really process where these feelings come from. This forum is great because of this. <3
I haven't had time/energy to write at all lately, since I've been studying for my exams. But they are over now! Yay. :)
Not really much to update. Everything's just..good and peaceful. I really think good times deserve to be written about, because those definitely are the ones I enjoy the most, it's just that I only know how to update when there's something dramatic or when I'm analysing something big... :p
I've had a cold for over two weeks. It's really uncommon for me to be ill that long. Luckily, the worst of it was the first week, after that I've been able to study and do stuff again. But I still have very little appetite, I can't think of anything I would feel like eating. :confused: Normally I totally don't have such problems; I can eat huge amounts of anything. :D But this sucks. I notice I eat less than normally, and that's really not good for me (I have even less energy than usual). I hope it passes soon.
When ill I've found myself wanting physical touch and cuddling. Both in general and with both of my partners. LDR with Mya is not really helping this. :rolleyes: Well, I just do what I'm good at: accept things as they are and refuse to wallow on it. We have been talking a lot, and I've enjoyed it as I always do, but at times I have felt a bit disconnected with her even though we are having a lot of contact. It's actually a strange thing: I think I should do the "love languages" test when ill or feeling low; I wonder if the results would be different. I did that once and at that time physical touch came only after words of affirmation and quality time.
Alec has made friends with some people he works with. He is clearly enjoying himself, and I am so happy for him! (Can you feel compersion for friendships? :p ) I've met a couple of them, and they seem like nice people.
I really don't feel like Christmas is next week. :eek: It's the same thing always when you have exams, everything that comes after them feels like a lifetime away. Alec's mother and her nephew are coming here to spend the holidays. I like my mother-in-law a lot, so it's nice to see her, and it's great that she comes to visit us here (she needs to take quite a many flights and she doesn't have a lot of money, so she hasn't been able to visit us since we moved here a year and a half before).
And then after new years I fly over to visit Mya and JJ. Finally! We haven't actually had a chance to spend time with that "V" before (though all four of us have hung out), so it'll be interesting. I'm totally jazzed about not having to be the hinge, for a change. :D I trust that at least some here will get that, though I don't think many mono people would. As in, oh poor you for having two loves, it must be so stressful.... ;) Obviously I enjoy having two partners, otherwise I wouldn't, but that's seemed to be the part where most poly-work lies for me.
fuchka
12-14-2011, 09:41 AM
Can you feel compersion for friendships?
Hell yeah :)
Cool to hear you're going to visit Mya & JJ! Yeah, it will be less "poly-work" as you say to not be the middle person, and it will probably also be illuminating to experience things from another perspective.
fuchka thanks for your comment. :) Yeah, I'm totally enjoying friendship-compersion. And I'm really looking forward to the trip at the beginning of next year, I'm starting to miss Mya a lot.
--
Things continue to run smoothly for us. There hasn't been much poly stuff to process. Me and Alec had a conversation about coming out to his mother, and we agreed that it needs to be done but christmas is not the best time for it. It's just problematic since we live in different countries and, thus, it always tends to be some kind of special occasion when we see her. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I really enjoyed how our discussion went. The last time we talked about that was last summer, 2 months into poly, and Alec hadn't even met Mya yet. Back then he was clearly very uncomfortable with the idea, and totally not ready. So this time, I expected him to be less uncomfortable, but thought it very possible that he would still be nowhere close to ready, and I would have been understanding about it. But I was pleasantly surprised. I just approached him and said that "you know, we need to tell your mum about our special arrangements at some point" and he just said matter-of-factly "yes, we do, I agree". No discomfort, no nothing.
In moments like this, I just see how far he has come and we have come in such a short time. I have such appreciation for Alec, for being willing to change his life and face difficult feelings and situations when his primary motivation comes from wanting me to be happiest I can be. Like with coming out, since poly will not be received well in his family: the best outcome that can be hoped for is initial shock and then gradually gained acceptance, but even that may be unrealistic from anybody but his mother (who I hope can understand in time) and maybe one sister if he decides to come out to his siblings (I feel that I'm only close to his mother on the level where I feel like I definitely want her to know I have a girlfriend, the rest of his family is totally his decision).
Me and Alec tend to talk about poly things mostly when they are somehow relevant to the situation at hand. I guess that is why I'm often surprised about how much progress he makes in between, because I am often not aware of it right away. We are somewhat different in that: when I make progress in something I'm sure to let everybody know. :p But I think Alec's style is different, and I think he doesn't want to announce it because he wants to be sure he is truly more comfortable with some aspect that he has previously had some discomfort around before letting me in on that. As much as I like to know everything that goes on all the time, I am glad that he has found his own ways that suit him. :)
Christmas went really well. My mom was with me and JJ and my good friend and her boyfriend visited us, too. It was almost perfect. I say almost because it would've been perfect if rory would've been there. I missed her a lot during Christmas. But I get to see her in a little over a week, which is great! :) I'm reeeaally looking forward to rory meeting my mom and my best friend when she's here.
JJ messaged a girl on a dating site a few days ago. I don't know if she'll answer or not but the fact that he did that is something. He has really started to put himself out there to find someone. It's not easy in this small town especially when he doesn't want to put the name of the town in his profile. That's because he thinks that could possibly out him to people he doesn't want to be out to. So he just has to find the right people himself and message them. The girl he found on the site lives in a another town, but that town is quite close to ours so that's good. I really hope she answers because there actually isn't very many poly people to choose from in our area.
I feel that many of my posts link to similar thought processes; I'm circling around boundaries and fairness and needs and wants and all that. I have come to one conclusion: I need to spend more time thinking about what it is that I want. It seems that consideration for others comes easily for me, what doesn't come easily is recognising my own wants and needs.
So, earlier I wrote that I need to let go of concentrating on fairness in my role as a hinge (in my role as a leg I don't). I have revisited this idea afterwards in my head, and I stand by it. I want to build relationships on the basis of what everybody genuinely wants in those relationships. I trust my partners to communicate to me what they want, and so far there haven't been problems in that department. But I really need to do work on my end of the deal. Since I have identified that it often doesn't come naturally to me to focus on my own wants, I need to do that purposefully.
When I think about it, there are some concrete things I do want in my relationships (and in life, but generally it is easier for me to identify those wants than it is in relationships). I was thinking of making lists. Some of these can very well change in the future, and I don't expect them to be in any way exhaustive.
What I need in partnerships in general:
- love; caring about and liking each other
- respect
- honesty
- communication
- autonomy; space and support for leading happy and fulfilling lives outside of the relationship
- intimacy
- support in hardship
- consideration
- connection
What I want in my relationship with Mya:
- I want to share everyday life and have our own routines: right now I feel good about this aspect since we usually skype every other day for several hours :)
- Regular physical contact (ideally more than we can now we're in a LDR): hugs, cuddles, kisses and sex
- About sex: I'd like to be able to have more, obviously, but I also wish to explore things together, and keep up the level of communication about it that we have established from the start
- Philosophical/analytical conversations
What I want in my relationship with Alec
- I want to continue sharing everyday life and again have our own routines: e.g. I want to keep in place for most days our habits of eating together watching dvds (dinner and/or evening snack; doesn't have to be every meal)
- Again, regular cuddles, hugs, kisses and sex
- I want to have space for of physical contact and non-verbal communication we have. I like to have many (even brief) moments of time alone together, but much of it isn't necessarily uncomfortable for other people (and not sexual in nature) and we can do some of it if the people are close enough and we feel comfortable, like if Alec's family is present. I'd like it if in time our poly-family was in that kind of comfortable place (but I will not try to force it, it'll come if it does).
- About sex: here communication often doesn't come naturally, since we had so many years of not talking much about sex. But I have started our heavy talks and made a commitment in my head to keep them up, since that's essential for our sex life to work (which, in turn, is essential for our partnership to work). My sexual preferences when having sex with a male have turned out to be really fluid, so expressing them needs to be done a lot. We have started to forge a broader common ground through communicating and exploring :p, and I want to keep that up.
About the sharing of everyday life, which is on the top in my relationship both with Mya and Alec (not that those lists are in any order of priority). I think routines is what makes everyday life for me, and that's why they're important. It's important to me that I have already established routines with Mya via skyping and messaging, and obviously we visit each other. I look forward to us being closer to each other, but I don't want to fall into that trap of thinking some people seem to have around LDRs that the "real relationship life" starts when we're closer. This is our real life, and our real relationship, every moment that goes by, and I want to live it in the present.
About sex (yes, I do like talking about it :p): my sexuality has been through changes, and probably keeps on changing. At times I've felt like there is too little common ground for me and Alec to be able to make it work. But (in addition to having done lots of work and thinking and communication) there have been lots of positive effects poly has brought to my sex-life as a whole. There are such differences in gender-dynamics, but also in power-dynamics, in my sexual relations with both of my partners, and that has made a huge difference. I feel more balanced when I can express different sides of myself. And I have gotten some needs (or strong wants) met, of which some I likely couldn't have identified very clearly. But others I had identified and concluded not easy to meet when in relationship with Alec: most obvious one being having a woman as a regular sex partner. Before meeting Mya I didn't consider poly-relationship as a real possibility, and even in an open relationship possibilities for sexual encounters with women didn't come up very often (likely since I only feel attraction after I form a connection with somebody, so don't have sex with strangers); certainly not comparable to having a relationship with a woman. The gender-thing is not the only one, but my point is that I am overall more satisfied. And I feel that I can enjoy the dynamic that comes naturally for me and Alec when I also have a relationship with a different kind of dynamic. That is, I don't need to try fit all aspects of my sexuality into sex with Alec if he is no longer my only regular sex partner.
Wow, is there stuff. I won't make a list, but since I totally support the concept of also being one's own primary, I'll add that there are some things I definitely need in my relationship with myself: own time, own space, and meaningful things to do (at the moment I consider studying to be exactly what I want to do, in the future I'd like more studying or interesting work). And Internet. ;)
Wow, I finally pinned this one down!
I have some sort of an interest in my friend Ally, who has been mentioned before. Both Mya and Alec know I'd be open to having sex with her, and that I like her. I think neither of them would be ready for me to have a third partner. We are still working on stabilising our current poly-family.
Thing is, I feel pretty safe to say that I am not ready either. I definitely know that I cannot have a third partner with a similar level of involvement that I have and am planning for in the future with Alec and Mya. There are also very many factors which contribute to making that impossible for me and Ally, even if we both suddenly decided we wanted that (which we won't suddenly do, since both of us are very rational in our decisions, and that just would not make sense). What I see as potentially realistic for us is some type of friends-with-occasional-benefits arrangement, if both of us were in that place. I think I would be open to that, but I haven't got a clue if she is (or if she feels ready in her relationship; they are open but don't really exercise that).
So, when "adding a third partner" isn't something I'm considering, why is this on my mind? Well, firstly, the dividing line between 'a friend' and 'a partner' isn't excactly clear in my head. This doesn't just pertain to this situation, but in general: say that I have a close friend, with whom I sometimes have sex with, and whom I love, and if that love is mutual; isn't it just a choice of wording to say that this person is a friend with benefits and not a partner? For me I guess the choice of word would depend on how me and the hypothetical person defined our relationship to each other. But I'm not sure if that would be the important bit to my existing partners... I would think the feeling of not-ready comes from something more concrete for them.
Secondly, though, I have a problem with the fact that since I am so aware of the not-ready status of my partners, I find it hard to look at what I want outside of that context. I tend to do lot more of this hypothetical analysing with Mya than Alec, so I'm more aware of her specific/concrete boundaries than his, and regarding to the situation at hand none of the things she has said she would feel uncomfortable about (still not forbidding me from doing them) are anything I feel like would happen with Ally anyway. So I have no problem respecting my partners' boundaries (that I can identify). It's just that I find it hard to see in which ways I feel not ready, since I feel that we are not ready.
Maybe these kind of definitional problems are sometimes why people separate primary/secondary/tertiary involvement.. :confused: I will never be adopting those terms, but perhaps it would be useful to adopt the non-hierarchical alternatives we were trying to find in a thread at one point. Was it Annabel that suggested life-partner and love-partner? I think I would not be ready for another life-partner any time soon, if ever. Two is all I have energy and time for. But the line between friendship (particularly when it's with benefits) and love-partnership is somewhat arbitrary to me... I also do recognise that love-partnership can evolve into life-partnership at some point (as can obviously FWB and friends and any relationship with a person you've just met), and I am fine with that if that point comes and everybody feels comfortable. But since that feels very distant now, I think it would be fair to communicate to any potential sexual/romantic friends or love-partners that fact from the beginning.
Still I continue to think about that, the boundaries. On second thought, I think I do know where Alec's boundaries lie around this, since they are not much different than they've ever been. If I did have a third partner, he'd likely struggle with same things that he works with now, except that it would all be more intense since more people would be involved - mostly, the impact of the new relationship on time he has with me and it's potential effect on future plans. These wouldn't be an issue with a love-partner regardless of love or sex, since I will want to spend time with somebody I'm close with even if it's platonic; and one of the differences between a life-partner and a love-partner (as I would define the terms to suit the conceptual difference I see) is the consideration they are given in life decisions. Though I might draw that line simply between a partner and a friend and there would be the dividing line; thus making this post and the previous one somewhat pointless? :p Well, whatever, enjoy my not-massively-important-nor-relevant-to-anything-at-the-moment-ponderings. ;)
nycindie
12-29-2011, 05:22 PM
...thus making this post and the previous one somewhat pointless? :p Well, whatever, enjoy my not-massively-important-nor-relevant-to-anything-at-the-moment-ponderings. ;)Hahaha, Rory, you are so cute.
Hahaha, Rory, you are so cute.
I agree with you, nycindie. ;)
Rory is coming here tomorrow! I can't wait!! :) I'm also really looking forward to seeing how the three of us (me, rory and JJ) interact together since we've never done that, Alec has always been present before. And she's going to meet my mom and my best friend, too. That's great, I've waited so long to get to introduce her to them!
Sometimes it feels like it takes forever before we move to Wonderland (that's what I'm going to call the country rory and Alec live in from now on). In reality it happens in about 8 months now, that's not too bad, is it? The best part is that I've come up with so many amazing things to do in the meanwhile that I'm sure time flies and before I know it, it's September. :) I'm going to travel a lot. The next trip is already booked and that is obviously to Wonderland next month. This time I'm also spending some time with my friends in Dream City (that's the place we're all going to move one day) before going to rory's. After that I'm likely going on holiday first with JJ, then with rory and then with a couple of friends. And I have plans for the summer, too. Ah, it's going to be a grrreat year! :)
Just a quick update. It's going great here! I'm totally enjoying being the hinge and JJ hasn't shown any signs of being uncomfortable with anything and neither has rory. :) Yesterday was amazing! Me and rory went to see my best friend and they got along very well. We decided to continue the night and went to a bar where one of my closest friends was working that night and took JJ with us so I was there surrounded by the people I love - JJ, rory and two close friends. I can't express how happy I was, we had such a good time! :) My friend really liked rory, she said she's smart, funny, sweet and very nice (and I agree obviously ;)). It feels good to hear that and have her full support for this relationship, too. :)
I've had a terrific time visiting Mya and JJ. I've also managed to meet with several friends who live in the same country. It's been just wonderful. Not much to report beyond that. Why is it that I can write loads about the most insignificant issues, but then really great stuff is going on and I don't know what to say, besides that everything is just awesome. :p
It's been really nice and comfortable staying here with Mya and JJ. Even though me and JJ haven't spent very much time alone together, or seen each other that often, I feel like I've gotten to know him quite a bit, and I feel comfortable around him. I also like seeing Mya and JJ together, they are totally cute and happy. I can't say I feel anything but compersion and happiness about their relationship. :)
Me and Mya have had time to reconnect, it's been truly wonderful. This last time we spent apart was something like six weeks, and that started to feel way too long. It was like charging batteries when we got together, just a really dire need to touch each other for a long time and a lot. Such a craving for physical connection. The first night it felt like the time I'd be here, 5 days, could never be enough. But gradually that feeling passed, and now I feel reconnected. That feels really good. All the time I feel she is becoming a more important part of my life. And I really appreciate how much I can rely on her, I completely trust that she is there for me. And god, how I love her.
It's been nine months now. At the moment our poly life just rolls on, with only a little steering and effort. I feel happy and satisfied with all aspects of my life, both poly-related and not. I've loved spending time with my friends and mother-in-law and having a vacation from studies. And I'm looking forward to my courses starting in a few days (still gotta fly home first, hah).
Oh yeah, and we went shopping today, and I got nice clothes, and shoes I desperately needed, and they were all really cheap. And Mya cut my hair and it's so short and hot, I love it. <3 And I've been fed so well by Mya and JJ and by my friends when I've visited them. At the moment we have cake, which I will be going to eat now. :p
BlackUnicorn
01-09-2012, 09:47 AM
Nine months, has it really been so long? All the best to you all!
BlackUnicorn: Time really flies, doesn't it? It was nice to hear from you and thanks! :)
Rory went back home today. Everything went really smoothly with me, her and JJ. :) She met my mom yesterday and that went well, too. The situation was just as normal as I expected. My mom behaved well (didn't ask awkward questions or anything like that) and they seemed to get along. I'm so happy about my mom, she's amazingly cool about this. She even hugged rory when we were leaving. :)
I learned something about myself as well. I had absolutely no problem being with one or both of my partners all the time. I just fantasized about continuing it and living with both of them, that would be so good for me. Me and rory are so different in this aspect. I just need very little alone time and this visit confirmed it. I think I might not make a very good leg of a V if I didn't have another partner myself. I don't mind sharing emotionally but I might get a bit lonely. Oh well, if I ever end up in a situation like that (if for example me and JJ broke up), I would have to see how I'd feel in reality then. No reason to think about it now when it looks like I'd be able to keep this situation like it is. :)
Thanks BU, and cool that you're back here. :)
I forgot to tell you that I met my brother and came out about poly (and bisexuality at the same time). He was pretty shocked, but other than that he didn't act any differently after a while. I do think he needs to process, so I'll get his full reaction later. But I suppose he'll ask me further info if he's confused. I'm 98% sure he knows nothing of poly, and I may well be the only non-heterosexual he knows. But I don't mind broadening his horizons, that's what big sisters are for, right? :D I didn't mention the word poly, but simply told him I have a girlfriend who I'm travelling to visit, and that Alec knows and is fine with it. I also added that he can ask me or Alec questions if he feels like it, and that me and Mya have a 'normal' relationship, except that the both of us have husbands. I'm really happy about that whole thing. :)
Another, non-related thing I'm happy about is that Alec has the new friends I've mentioned here before. He spent pretty much the whole week at their place when I was visiting Mya and meeting my friends. Alec always misses me when I'm away (no matter where I am, thus not poly-related) but this time he barely mentioned it, even though it was a relatively long time for us to be apart. I think really positive developments are going on in his life, and I'm happy for him. I also find that we are more compatible when he gets more of his socialsing needs met by other people, we can enjoy each other more.
Sometimes I come across a concept which may not be relevant to me in any concrete way, but which I still want to analyse a bit and think about how it relates to my life. It is not rare to read an opinion stating how difficult mono/poly relationships are generally. Sometimes even that people can never find a comfortable place in a mono/poly relationship.
I have a hard time with generalisations. To generalise, generalisations never are true for everybody... ;) And perhaps I see them as problematic, and maybe I am often an outlier among outliers, so that I often have an experience that doesn't fit the generalisation, even if it is one that I see as having some truth in it. For example, the mono/poly thing. I am pretty sure there can be additional challenges to that dynamic. I also do see that many people have much more trouble with transitioning to poly than I've had with Alec. And I can understand that well. I totally sympathise with those who have (had) a hard time with it.
So, I believe that it may well be true that in general mono/poly relationships are challenging. But the other statement, that people can't be satisfied in a mono/poly relationship... I do take issue with it. The claim that one party inevitably crosses their own boundaries in compromising. I feel that I am getting my needs met (and almost all I want, too), and I am completely satisfied. And from what he has communicated to me, and from what I see in him, Alec is getting his needs met (and much of what he wants), and is very satisfied. Now, as with everything else in life, things can change, so that satisfaction may not last forever, and we may need to change things. I'm not making any declarations about how things are and will be now and in the future. But I feel safe to say that so far, mono/poly dynamic has been no hindrance to our happy life together. I don't know, if I should counter with a opposing viewpoint then, when I read a generalising statement. On one hand, it feels like it may give too pessimistic a view to a couple new to poly when they are slammed with a statistical "fact" that mono/poly is unlikely to succeed. On the other, it feels like offering my own experience as an example of how mono/poly can work well is somehow...something. Puts pressure on me that in order to make that kind of statement I, and my relationships, would need to be "perfect" and follow all the "true poly rules" (not that I subscribe to that kind of thing in other contexts) and perhaps I should wait for some abstract time when I've been poly longer... So, I don't do it, but I come here in my own safe journal to ramble about it instead. :D
I so hear you on those thoughts ... they crossed my mind often. There has been a discussion on when a relationship has to be regarded as 'successful'. Lasting for a lifetime? Mainly satisfying the needs of all involved for the time it lasted? I am more prone to go with the latter. As long as I get the feeling that my relationship(s) work according to that model, I will feel save to say: All is fine, that's how it works for us and it works great.
In mono/poly or what relationship model ever, each person is responsible to look after the 'needs-met-bit' on their own first. I (finally:p) trust in my partners to be able to do this for themselves. If they say that this is the case and everyone is happy, I won't accept the 'there is no comfortable place in mono/poly relationships' statement, because it seems so patronizing. For this to be true, one relationship model has to be inferior to the other, not able to make the person living it truly comfortable.
Each time I worried about Sward and Lin not being happy with the situation, I did something unfair to them. I realized that not right away, but Lin told me once: "Can't I be happy with the love I feel for you? It's all I need and enough for me to be content. I am not 'putting up' with something any more. Things are how they are and being with you makes me happy. That's all there is to it. What do I care if there is another? As far as I am concerned, I live a 'mono' relationship with you. You being poly doesn't change the way I feel and as things are at the moment, I am able to live that love." Why should I regard his relationship approach (being solely in love with me) as inferior to my own (being in love with both of them)?
The mono-exclusivity-part isn't love driven, it's ego driven. It feeds on our insecurities and all that can be found on our personal vanity fair. That's the thing that makes transitioning from mono-exclusivity to poly-freedom so hard (just a specific alignment of the words, no general statement intended for mono/poly in general). At least that's what we found to be true for us. And as I said, that's all I can talk about :)
BlackUnicorn
01-18-2012, 11:01 AM
There has been a discussion on when a relationship has to be regarded as 'successful'. Lasting for a lifetime? Mainly satisfying the needs of all involved for the time it lasted?
I can't remember if I participated on that discussion, but yeah, all relationships end eventually. Is a relationships which started in your twenties and lasted till the day you (or they) died more of a success story than one that started in your fifties and lasted for the rest of your life, since the first example lasted three decades longer?
I can tell which relationships have had a positive, meaningful and big impact on my life, but there has to be some perspective. Ultimately I guess I'm trying to say that a relationship has to end before you can at least try to evaluate it. All relationships have an impact but I would call relationships a success if I have fond memories of the people involved.
I sometimes wonder if coming out on these boards and going "triads are SO hard!" is generalizing and condescending both to people in such configs and those who are looking for their mythical beast. Hey, maybe it's just me who has a hard time with this and that? If I can't make a three-person relationship work, should I come here and call any and all attempts doomed from the start?
I think there's a fine line between "So many people have been frustrated out of their minds with poly/unicorn hunt/monopoly that if you want to tap into that experience of this community, read and proceed with caution: this is what you might expect" and "Poly/unicorn hunt/monopoly does not and will not work, because I've never had much luck with it".
I'm feeling a bit blue.. I'm missing Mya a lot. It's not painful, but right now it's there in the back of my mind constantly.
I don't usually want to dwell on it, but at the moment I feel that...it sucks that she's not closer. It sucks that it takes such amounts of time and effort and money to see each other. I'm really looking forward to 8 months from now when Mya and JJ will be moving to Dream City. We'll be in the same country then; still 300 miles away, but there will be a choice between a ridicilously cheap 9-hour-bus and a relatively cheap direct flight. We'll be able to meet more often, maybe twice a month, and more spontaneously as well.
We are growing closer, and I feel like I'd like to move forwards, to create more together. For the first time I'm beginning to feel like that ability is seriously limited by our physical distance. It's a different push than the hunger for intimacy that NRE creates. I just feel like I want to build more of a connection with Mya.
Ok, that's the end of this whine now. Btw, this rant shouldn't be misinterpreted in any way to signify that I would regret us being in an LDR. LDR is all that's possible for us at the moment, and I can't describe how significantly our relationship enhances my life. I'm just looking forward to being able to decrease the distance.
Just wanted to write down these feelings. Don't really feel like doing lots of pondering about stuff, thus sorry that I won't write more thoughtful responses to you Phy and BU, but I do appreciate you posting and enjoyed reading your views.
fuchka
01-23-2012, 07:22 PM
I'd like to move forwards, to create more together.
I know the feeling! Glad to hear of the upcoming shift... Definitely will make the ground more fertile for you all xx
^Thanks, I think so too! :)
I've identified earlier that my NRE with Mya is over. Now I'm noticing that my NRE with poly is over. Both of these things are good and healthy: I'm not obsessing but living. The effects on poly journal are that I don't need/want to analyse everything to death all the time. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it while it lasted, all the learning about poly and coming to understand and reflecting on the concepts. But I'm glad that I can concentrate on other things again, as well. There's more to life than poly - who knew? :p
I'm throughoutly enjoying my life at the moment. I'm studying my ass off, and all the courses I have are really interesting (though challenging). Mya is coming here next week, I'm so looking forward to that. Need to try and finish my first essay before then, so I'll have more flexibility time-wise.
I am currently looking into possibilities of work for the Summer. Though it looks like I'll be staying home (yay) and doing customer service or something like that (boo), there is a small possibility of getting an internship in my own field. That means I couldn't stay home, but I would spend the Summer in some other country either in Europe or Asia. It would be also first LDR for me and Alec. I have been stunned by how supportive he has been about the whole thing. Not that I would expect him to try to persuade me to not go for his benefit, or something like that. Still, seeing his selflessness really makes me appreciate him. Also, I don't know if poly has been a coincidence, a trigger, or a cause, but I see such an increase in his independence and confidence. There has been a shift in our dynamic, which is partly changes in me but it seems that he is changing to the same direction. I am primarily happy for him, and also happy for us. I think it is a good direction.
I'm now at rory's. I've been here for 5 days and I'm leaving today. It's been great, just awesome. :) We've both had a lot to do, rory's been studying and I've been working, life has been.. normal. :p I'm unbelievably happy that our situation is so stable right now. All the relationships are doing great and I'm not feeling any insecurity at the moment. I think it's very possible that we (I mean all three couples) will stay together for a long time. Obviously anything can happen, but I think we've come a long way to be where we are now and if we can maintain this stability, I believe we have a good chance of making it.
Alec has been very thoughtful during this visit. Well he is usually like that, but this time even more so. Originally we had the plan that rory sleeps next to him every 3rd night. This time I'm here only for 4 nights (arrived in the morning, leaving in the evening), so he suggested that rory sleeps next to me all the nights. So we did that and it was really nice. :) Also, he decided to spend the entire Friday night at a friend's house, so he went there straight from work and came back on Saturday morning. So me and rory got the whole Friday to ourselves! First we worked/studied a bit and then watched a couple of movies, made dinner, had deep conversations, laughed a lot, had great sex without having to worry about noises (that's mainly me, I'm having a hard time being quiet :D) and went to bed all happy and tired. Perfection. <3
I'm really enjoying my developing friendship with Alec, too. I think we're becoming more and more relaxed with each other and I feel at home when I'm at their place. There's no weirdness around anything. I feel like we've already established a comfortable place where we don't have to try anything anymore. We can just be, hang out, and if the friendship grows, that's great but if it doesn't, that's still good.
The next time I'm seeing rory is next month when I'm coming here again, but in April me and rory are going to Paris together to celebrate our first anniversary! I'm looking forward to it. :) We're flying there from our respective countries (so you can rule out France from the list of places where we could live :p) and will meet there. We got the flights synchronized amazingly well, one of us will only have to wait at the airport for like 20 minutes or so in both directions.
Me and JJ are in the process of selling our house. This is something we would've probably done even if we hadn't decided to move to Wonderland. We've both just gotten tired of all the things that have to do with owning a house. I'm not a very outdoorsy person so I haven't planted any flowers or a garden of any sort. The only good thing about having a house is that you can make noise without disturbing the neighbours and the other way around, you don't have to listen to neighbours making noises. But I want to move to a place where things happen. In our little village nothing ever happens. So when the house is sold, we're moving to a nearby city which is still a very small city compared to Dream City, but at least there's something happening there. So we'll probably live there for about 3-6 months (depending on how fast we can sell the house) before we move out of the country. Better make the most of it even in the meantime, right?
Oo, news! :) JJ told me today that he slept with a friend of his yesterday. They went to a bar together and after that it happened. I actually had a feeling yesterday that something might be going on and I was right. :p I'm glad it's finally done. I mean he has done stuff before but not the sex part. So this is new. I know the person it happened with and I know she's a nice and rational woman. Definitely not a drama queen. I'm glad he chose her.
I'm also glad about how I'm reacting to this. I'm not feeling jealous or anything like that. This reaffirms my belief about myself as a non-jealous person. It was just all the possible drama that freaked me out a little bit some time ago. I was worried that JJ would end up hurting some people, and with that hurting me as well. That was the thing I was upset/worried about, not the fact that he would actually have sex with someone else. I like my life peaceful. So here we are, as long as I can keep that, I'm good. :)
Also, I like the fact that I was with rory when this happened for the first time. It's still some kind of a big deal even if it's not hurting me. I didn't have to be home alone wondering what's happening and waiting anxiously for the news or the text message about not coming home that night. Before this I was a bit nervous about when and how it would happen, in what circumstances. Now I know and that's good.
Mya wrote a lot of what has been on my mind as well about her visit. I love how peaceful, stable, and comfortable our poly-life feels. Mya being here with me and Alec has just normalised, sort of. I can sense both of them being at ease, and I am actually able to let go of all the stress of being the hinge that I've talked about here.
One thing I still haven't managed to do is take time for myself while she's here. But I think I got to the bottom of it when I talked with Mya about it. It's not only because I really want to see her that I ignore the need for alone time. That plays a part, but it has been such a pressing need at times that I would've done it. But it isn't so simple. It's the whole long distance thing. When Mya is here I obviously want to spend a lot of time with her, and I'm also constantly aware about the fact that she is here to see me. It doesn't matter how supportive she would be about my need for time and space, the situation still is what it is. Because, concretely, what I need when I need time and space for myself, is having an "endless" period of time when nobody expects anything from me.
[Obviously, nobody has an actually endless amount of time with no obligations. ;) But I have organised my life in a way that allows me to take really long periods of time and just be (in fact, that is my plan for today and maybe tomorrow). Probably number one reason I don't want kids, btw.]
Anyway, that kind of feeling of having to do absolutely nothing.. it isn't really feasible to have that when Mya is here, for obvious reasons. Yet, having two full-time partners with me, one of whom I have just spent and will soon again be spending a month apart with, is more intense than my regular everyday life. So, I'd need more time for myself to balance it out. Fortunately we've now managed to make the visits as peaceful and comfortable as they can be. I think that is all we can do. I will no longer have the aim of taking more time for myself while Mya's here because it just won't work in that situation as it usually does. However, we agreed that week is maybe the longest time we'll be planning for in the future. I've also noticed that weekends tend to be the most draining in terms of energy, so maybe we'll aim for as many weekdays as possible, but of course that depends on the flight schedules and all that.
I really hate to always be writing about this because it totally over-emphasises the issue. Seriously, I so completely enjoy the time Mya is here. It is always so wonderful to reconnect with her. (Also, TMI, but I have totally the greatest sex life when both of my partners are available for me.. :cool: ) It's just that I do have a limited amount of energy, and to be able to enjoy and be totally present in the time with my partners (and to retain my ability to take care of other commitments), I do need that time for myself.
AnnabelMore
02-13-2012, 05:16 PM
Congrats to JJ! Well, congrats to everyone, really, things are going so swimmingly, it's great to see. :)
Gia and I had to work around the issue of her feeling very happy whenever she saw me, but also a little stressed at times for just the reasons you've described, Rory. It helped when I started bringing a book with me whenever I came over so that I could chill out and do my own thing while relaxing in her space and she, in turn, could relax and do what she needed to do for herself without worrying about keeping me entertained.
Thanks Annabel. :) <3 I felt sort of funny writing after the post about the news. I felt like commenting, but then.. Is it just me of does it feel sort of strange to say "oh, your husband had sex with somebody else, I'm so happy for both of you!". :p
A book is good, and also this time Mya had gotten an internet connection on her phone, so we were both able to surf at the same time. It was also sort of good that she had to work a lot, because I was able to study well, too.
AnnabelMore
02-13-2012, 07:17 PM
Keep it classy, and just send him this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o&ob=av3e
How I wish that would've been so. All going swimmingly I mean. It didn't. When I came back home, we talked some more about the sex. I found out he broke a safe sex boundary we had agreed on. :( It was to use protection always, also in oral sex. And he didn't do that (he did during intercourse though). I'm so sad and hurt that he broke my trust. :( Obviously I'm glad he told me right away before anything between me and him had happened after the incident. But that's just the very least he should do. We've talked very much during the last two days. He knows what he did was wrong and is very sorry, he's not making any excuses. He also says that he's not going to do it again. But it's going to take a while to regain the trust.
I'm so sad. :(
Oh dear, that is a tough one. As soon as I read it, the 'why' question popped up but you didn't talk about that for a reason I guess. I am sorry that you are hurting, I hope you will reach a comfortable place as soon as possible. *sigh* So sorry to hear this, you did so great in this situation, I was amazed about your calmness and how OK you were with everything.
Phy, thanks for the comment and support! I didn't talk about the reason why because there really wasn't any. It was just a selfish moment of inconsideration. Alcohol played some part as well. Not really anything he could say to defend himself or make it any better.
AnnabelMore
02-15-2012, 07:57 PM
I'm sorry, Mya. :( What the heck is up with otherwise good people totally forgetting their ethics once temptation appears?? Is it that hard to say "I'd like this but it wouldn't be ok with my partner, let me talk to him/her and maybe next time we can give it a go"??? We're not impulsive teenagers anymore who can't weigh the consequences of our actions...
Annabel, thanks. Yeah, exactly. I don't know what's up with that! I actually said to JJ that he seems to be doing well on the non-monogamy part but not as well on the ethical part. But he sure seems miserable about this. He says he really has learned his lesson, he felt awful all the days leading to telling me.
I feel weird. Life goes on as usual, we do our everyday stuff like any other day but somehow I feel like something's changed. We don't really talk about the broken trust issue anymore, because I feel there's nothing to say. It's all been said already. There's nothing left I'd want to hear from him regarding this. But still somehow I feel like we should talk about it or otherwise I can't get over it. I feel conflicted. Also, at times I feel like hugging or kissing him but I just don't. Something inside me is stopping me. Sometimes it's even hard to look at him if he's smiling because that makes me smile too and I don't want to look happy. Because right now I am not. This all sounds (and feels) so strange. It's not like I don't want to forgive him and let go of his mistake. But I just feel like I need something, some reassurance of sorts but the feeling is so vague that I can't ask for anything specific.
karatekid7412589
02-21-2012, 03:23 PM
Since beginning our poly relationship I have read a lot of stuff about poly on the Internet. I knew of poly beforehand, but not much beyond that. Thus, learning about all the different ways of "doing poly" has caused me to reflect a lot on what kind of a poly is good for me. What is it that I want, what feels right to me, and what doesn't.
One poly "style" I can't relate to is a rigid primary/secondary view of partners. I have a really strong feeling of wanting my partners to be equal, and had this feeling even before embarking on poly. I have had some difficulties wrapping my mind around the concept of equality not meaning sameness, and what that means in practice, but I'm getting there. Anyway, today I was thinking more about why I feel a primary/secondary relationship wouldn't feel right to me.
One thing I realised was that there is a conflict between what I feel is right and one thought often (but not always!) associated with the primary/secondary view. The thought being "You will be my primary: therefore in case of a conflict situation, you and your needs will always come before the one's of my secondary partner, simply due to that position.". I.e. I would give my primary partner a right to demand anything from me, no matter how unreasonable, because "he was there first" (or because I gave him that position). The underlying assumption being that I will make choices based not on any objective reasons but on "who I love the most" or "who is the most important to me" or whatever the primary status is supposed to signify. Of course, there is usually an assumption that goes with it that the primary partner won't demand anything completely unreasonable and horrifying; say, my secondary's mother dies and my primary doesn't want me to spend time comforting her because he want's to watch a movie. But, I don't know. Sometimes it can be used that way, e.g. vetoing somebody without any significant reason. And, if I make decisions and choises based on how reasonable the request is, why would my partner need a primary status if they are not planning on making unreasonable requests? Either they are, or they don't trust me to take them and their needs into consideration. Either way, I think there's a deeper problem.
Rory, I agree with your concerns and from my signature you can tell that I do not currently have anyone else to share my love with, but Whitelettersky does. If I did have someone in my life other than her than I would want to honor the word "polyamory" and have multiple people that I love. I would not want a pyramid based love structure where you are my primary and she is my secondary and third and fourth and so on, but each new block of the pyramid will get less of my love and respect?? Doesn't make sense. If I had 12 lovers then what would number 12 get? a phone call once a year? haha I'm obviously exaggerating, but there needs to be boundaries and an LTR of 10 years should probably make a larger impact on big decisions than a NRE of 3 weeks.
Thanks for making me think about this because I also had doubts. Way to go against the grain in an already "against the grain" lifestyle!! :)
I'm feeling a bit better at the moment. We've talked some more and I feel relieved because I've been able to express all my feelings, just as raw as they are right now. Complete honesty. I have to share something quite beautiful he said to me which made me remember why I love him: "I know neither of us has much appreciation for long marriages that aren't happy. So if I bring more unhappiness than happiness to your life, we should break up." I asked if that's something he wanted. He said: "No, I don't want to break up. But I will always love you no matter what you decide. I just want you to be happy." He said all that with a very emphatic voice and I truly believe he wants what's best for me. That makes me feel really good. I feel like we're on a some kind of trial period now. If we manage to rebuild the trust and he doesn't do something like that again in the near future, we might make this work again. I certainly hope so.
I am happy that I don't have overly protective instincts or anything like that, and I have pretty clear view of the relationships as separate. I think that helps me to be supportive without overstepping my boundaries. It is obviously sad, though, to see Mya hurting. :( And it is hard to be so far away in this kind of situation, when I really want to hug her and hold her. I love the support she has received here, though.
--
Thanks for making me think about this because I also had doubts. Way to go against the grain in an already "against the grain" lifestyle!! :)
Glad to help! :) Good luck with exploring poly.
--
I spent the last week with my closest friend, first I travelled to visit her by bus and then she came here with me. We talked tons, and it was lovely. At the moment, I am in a really good and peaceful place with myself and my loves.
Since we know we're moving soon, we've been going through stuff to throw away and there's loads! We're moving from a house to a smaller apartment so we have to get rid of a lot of things. I find it kind of therapeutic. It feels good to leave the old stuff behind and just bring with me the things I really like or need. Kinda symbolic.
I'm going to see rory again in a few days, yey! :) I'm so happy that we've been able to arrange seeing each other almost every month. This time I'm spending about 5 days there. After that I'm going to spend 3 days in Dream City. One of my friends there has a birthday and I'm attending to her party and see some other friends during the visit too. It's always so great to go to Dream City, walk the streets and dream about which parts of the city I would like to live in, what kind of apartment I would have, what would be my nearest park.. Only 6 months to go! Before that there's still the other move, out of this house.
I've been thinking about something lately. I think I've felt the NRE effect a bit longer than rory has. I've noticed in the past that even though I have crushes on people quite easily, they don't occur when I'm starting out a new relationship. When I started dating JJ, there was at least a year when I didn't have crushes on anybody else. I guess that's one of the effects of my NRE that are quite clear to me. When I start to have crushes for other people, that's when I know my NRE phase is over. That's the main reason I had some negative feelings (small, but anyway I had them) when rory told me she was interested in sleeping with Ally. I felt like she had stopped being in NRE with me when I was still feeling it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that even if it was so, although it also could've been that rory experiences NRE differently than I do. In the moment though I felt like we weren't in the same place with our feelings and that was the thing that made a bit sad. The reason why I'm bringing this up again is that I feel like finally my NRE is gone. First of all, now that I think about rory and Ally, I think 'go for it!'. I don't feel bad about it anymore, not even the tiny bit I did before. I also feel super confident in our relationship so that's also one thing that makes me feel at ease if she's with someone new. And the last thing how I know my NRE is over: I've started to think about sleeping with other people. Especially this one guy I know. He's a friend of mine. Well, we're not very close friends but we hang out often because we have a mutual friend and that's how we've gotten to know each other a bit. I don't have a crush on him, he's not someone I would date (too masculine), but I find myself thinking about him just sexually. He's in an open relationship so we could do it without hurting anyone. So..let's see how it goes. ;)
Similar reaction here, you go girl! ;)
The NRE thing really interesting! I do think mine ended a bit sooner (though I couldn't set a definite date, more like phasing out), but my hots for Ally wasn't a signifying thing. On the contrary, when at the hight of NRE I felt totally overflowing with affection in general as well as towards Mya. So for me NRE doesn't have such an effect where I don't have interest for other people, too.
I'm totally looking forward to seeing Mya in a few days time! We have been skyping a lot, and hot plans have been discussed. :p Obviously I also want cuddles and hugs and closeness. That is what I usually miss the most when we're apart. Right now, though, I'm missing sexual action at least as much. Maybe cause we've been talking about it somewhat more... Well, enough of that now. :cool:
That is actually really interesting how the NRE affects us in different ways. :) I'm glad we can talk about it so I can feel just as loved as I would if you reacted the same way as I do. And the plans.. I'm really looking forward to them as well. :cool:
I feel like writing but I don't really know what about! Mya's coming tomorrow, Alec and I will go to pick her up from the airport. It's actually a really good time, she'll be here around two in the afternoon, which is pretty rare since we have such a long distance and always try to fly cheap. We should do some cleaning around the flat before we go pick her up, not that Mya minds the mess, but it's a good reason to vacuum, nobody has done that in ages. :D
I met a girl at the Uni who seems really great, we're planning to have coffee some time next week. Oh, how I'd love to get a local friend out of her!
Today I got to introduce rory to my friend who lives here in the same city as her. The friend of mine actually asked for it and I'm happy she did. They got along great! Rory had to leave a bit earlier so I stayed in the coffee shop with my friend. She said that rory seems lovely and that I've made a good choice. :)
Our previously planned sleeping schedule (every third night with Alec when Mya is visiting) has, again, broken down the last two times Mya's been here. I feel that it's been for really positive reasons, though. It was never supposed to be set in stone or anything. Last time, Mya was only here for 4 nights, so Alec suggested that I sleep all the nights with her, which I happily accepted. [Btw, I am talking about sleeping together in the literal sense only, we don't have a schedule for the other stuff ;)] This time it's just been a flexible schedule, since Alec has gone to sleep earlier for work. Again the suggestion came from him that since we won't be falling asleep together anyway, it would be fine if I slept with Mya instead on "his nights". So I only ended up sleeping with him once during the 6 nights (when I was tired and wanted to go to sleep earlier). These are no big changes or anything, but I just love how it's become so flexible, since that's how I like it. Just making decisions based on how everybody feels and other things in life. It also makes me optimistic that scheduling won't be a of problem once we're all living closer to each other, either, since all of us are flexible, communicating, and able to reach decisions everybody can be satisfied with. :) I feel happy about the fact that in all relationship, including between metamours, there is concern for each other's happiness.
Overall, it was again a lovely visit. Simply comfortable and peaceful. Also, I had a good amount of alone time with Mya, which was great. I feel such love for her, and affection, and attraction, and closeness. We are off to Paris next month, and we'll have our one-year anniversary in three weeks. I truly appreciate her presence in my life.
My anniversary with Alec is just a few days apart from mine and Mya's, we'll have been together for 8 years soon. I feel that our love and our relationship keeps becoming stronger and deeper. Also, I feel that the previous year that we've been poly (in addition to open, which came earlier) has enabled even more growth for us, both individually for each of us and together in our relationship. I can certainly say that I am more independent and more secure in myself and more committed to our relationship; and it seems to me that he has been through similar changes. Not that all of those things weren't present before, they merely have increased. I feel it has been very beneficial to both of us, and to our relationship.
Happy. :)
Alec has a friend (let's say C) who is in quite a restrictive relationship. Basically, C's girlfriend dictates what he is and isn't allowed to do (and I'm not talking about things like basic monogamy rules, but as in he can't have a certain hobby and things like that). His interactions with Alec are somewhat limited by that as well; it is hard for them to set up a time to meet etc. Anyway, C commented to Alec that he had misunderstood that since Alec and I spend a lot of time in different rooms doing our own stuff, it meant that I was angry at him. Alec explained that it's just that we are autonomous in our relationship, we don't need to hang out all the time when both of us are at home. C commented "you're lucky".
I agree. Though it's not so much about luck but what we have created together, what emerges out of being autonomous and making boundaries in a relationship. There are some immediate emotional rewards that a symbiotic/co-dependent relationship offers, and those can be lucrative particularly in NRE or if one is (unconsciously) scared of independence whether it's fear of failure or fear of abandonment. But that kind of a dynamic is often just frighteningly unhealthy (depending on the extent to which the couple comes before the individual).
I feel happy that both of my partners appreciate their own independence and want to honour mine. I feel happy that none of us need each other; instead we want to be in this. This is what I want.
AnnabelMore
03-17-2012, 04:21 PM
Woah, I'm kind of worried about C, especially since he doesn't seem to necessarily understand that the reality within his relationship is not how most relationships work. Yes, Alec is very lucky to have you, but not because it's some magical, beautiful ideal simply that you're not insane! That's actually pretty standard, whereas the level of control that you're saying C's gf takes over him seems really creepy and unhealthy outside of a context of negotiated, mutually desired D/s.
Maybe Alec could share some literature with him about emotional abuse and talk to him more about what healthy relationships look like?
That's actually pretty standard, whereas the level of control that you're saying C's gf takes over him seems really creepy and unhealthy
I totally agree with you about the unhealthiness, and Alec did actually point that out to C yesterday (that's what got them talking), and C himself admitted that the relationship and the power dynamic is uneven. The whole thing makes me feel really sad and uneasy. :( Then again, there isn't really much we can do, he doesn't even live around here and if he wants to stay, well. I don't even know him that well, to be able to affect the things in any way... I hope that he will gather the will and strength to get himself out of that. I don't think C is big on reading, but I think it's a good idea for me to talk with Alec, and see if he's got any thoughts. He agrees with me that the situation is bad, but I don't think they have much talked about it with C before yesterday.
I didn't mean to underplay C's situation in my last post, I don't know if it comes off that way since I went on to write about my own relationships. It's just that after an abusive childhood, healthy relationships still years later don't feel like something I can take for granted (even as I actually have healthy boundaries nowadays).
BlackUnicorn
03-18-2012, 04:54 PM
There are some immediate emotional rewards that a symbiotic/co-dependent relationship offers, and those can be lucrative particularly in NRE or if one is (unconsciously) scared of independence whether it's fear of failure or fear of abandonment. But that kind of a dynamic is often just frighteningly unhealthy (depending on the extent to which the couple comes before the individual).
Agreed! For me, the most difficult part of cultivating independence in a relationship is
a) to be able to separate my emotions from my partner's emotions (just because they feel sad/angry/frustrated/whatever, doesn't mean I have to feel those same things. I can be supportive without sharing their emotions)
and
b) to be able to separate my actions and motives from my partner's (if I don't feel like having sex after a big fight, my partner wanting sex after the fight doesn't mean they are inconsiderate and weren't affected in any way - they might feel the need to connect emotionally that way).
AnnabelMore
03-19-2012, 04:58 PM
I didn't mean to underplay C's situation in my last post, I don't know if it comes off that way since I went on to write about my own relationships. It's just that after an abusive childhood, healthy relationships still years later don't feel like something I can take for granted (even as I actually have healthy boundaries nowadays).
No no, you're good. You didn't come off poorly and it's not your job to save anyone regardless, I just wanted to say something.
Annabel thank you. I always love your input.
BlackUnicorn good insights! I'd say I have a bit of trouble with that same thing you wrote about in the part a. I read your post and did some thinking around that. There are actually some patterns like that with Alec, which I feel have their basis in some way we've learned to be with each other. Your comment made me think about that more, and I'm glad about that. I actually came to a conclusion that I will make it my aim to become more aware of that automatic process that sometimes happens where I adopt his feelings for myself, and try to change that. I think it will take some time, but I believe gradual change is realistic.
----
I only recently got familiar with the introvert/extrovert concept, through this article in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/13/why-the-world-needs-introverts?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038). I am not sure how neatly all people can be put into those categories (and this is a comment I need to make since there are so many of those neat binary categories through which people organise their world view into which I don't fit). However, I did get lots and lots of food for thought.
I am an introvert if anybody is. And this relates to many poly things (as well as to other things in life). Most notably to my energy levels and being a hinge. The whole need for own time and space and things. It has been a while since I made a decision that I want to accept my limitations in terms of often not being able to do what I would want to do (or what I expect of myself or what I feel others want from me or whatever). There is regularly a complete lack of energy. Social situations in particular are ones that wear me down a lot. Those with lots of people I don't know especially, but I also need quite a bit of time alone, without even the people I am most comfortable with like partners or close friends. This has been very hard to accept for me. Just last time when Mya was here it was the case that I broke down crying from exhaustion on the last evening even though her visit had been very relaxed and comfortable.
When I run out of energy I feel low in general, but I can also feel like I am not good enough. It has felt like I can't accept that part in myself. I can only function when I view myself as I am at my best. That means I really like myself 95% of the time. But it also means that the times when I just can't feel that much worse. I think that if I could just accept the periods of lower energy as a part of myself, I would still like myself a lot, and they wouldn't be such a threat.
I feel that the concept of introvert may give me some pretty good tools towards that. I have already started the thought process before, when I noticed the cycle of really high and really low levels of energy. Then, I thought that, on one hand, it feels awful at the lowest points but, on the other, I wouldn't want to give up the times of high energy when I feel so alive. If it was more stable, both would be gone.
This is sort of related to that. On one hand, I have a hard time with the fact that I don't simply have the energy for many things I would want to do at times, whether it's an event at the University, or having hot sex with my partner. But on the other, there's lot more things that are related to being an introvert and some of them are some I really appreciate about myself. I don't know how much I'm keeping to the content of the concept even (since I don't actually know much about it) but it was just sort of a starting point for lots of thoughts. And I see connections now that I didn't before.
For one, I really liked the way they put it in the article: "the introvert is simply overstimulated". That is what it is; when I need to be alone, or when I am tired after a social event. Overstimulation. And while it sometimes feels like I am doing nothing productive on a day, there is actually often loads of processing going on. Not all learning, for example, is wholly conscious. So, I need a lot of time, but directly connected is the fact that I can understand very complicated things well. I need to process a lot, but when I do I can find extraordinary solutions and make productive changes. Sometimes those things take all my energy but then, in time, the energy is back and I can put it into something else wholly since I'll have often made serious progress with the previous thing.
Today I actually started to wonder about one thing Mya and I talked about just yesterday, and whether that could be connected somehow as well. We talked about the connection between feelings and reasoning, and came to a conclusion that we work in slightly different ways. I may have a feeling, and then go through a thought process about it, and if I come to a conclusion that the underlying assumptions or causes of the feeling are irrational or untrue, it may be that the feeling hardly ever reoccurs after that. This doesn't always work so straightforwardly, but it has worked that way for example in case of jealousy. Years ago I used to be jealous of my best friend's new friends until I one day thought about it, and came to the conclusion that even if she meets people who she likes as much as me, or even more, that still doesn't mean that she values me any less as a friend. And after thinking that through I have experienced only very little jealousy, whether in friendships or partnerships. Somehow, because people often imagine others experience things as they do, I have simply thought that's how it basically works with everybody else, too. But apparently it doesn't always work that way. Mya said that she may go through a similar process, which leads her to decide that she won't act on the feeling, but the feeling can still remain there as it was before.
This was just an interesting noticed difference. I don't know if I went off a tangent on the introvercy thing, just came to think of that and wondered if it might be somehow connected. Anyway, enough analysis for tonight either way.
Me and rory have had some amazing conversations during the last few weeks. We've come to realise so much about each other and ourselves, how we work and what concepts we're using to talk about certain things. It's been totally intense and useful and interesting. That is something I would never want to give up, so I really hope rory stays in my life forever. :)
Yesterday I talked to the guy I mentioned earlier, the one I'm kinda interested in. Let's call him Bob. After the about 3-4 hours long conversation we had, I think I just developed a crush on him. :o Very tiny one and I still don't want to date him, but I do recognize the feeling. It's funny. We've known each other for a few years now but we've never really had a long one-on-one conversation. It's always been either in a group or just short conversations one-on-one. I really enjoyed our conversation. He's funny and smart and I think we understand each other well. I haven't had a crush on a man in years. I'm leaning more toward women in my bisexuality so that's why this doesn't happen much nowadays.
That got me and rory talking about what kind of relationships we would be ready for in addition to our current ones. I'm quite polysaturated at the moment as in I don't want a third committed/serious relationship. I just don't have the time or the energy and I also don't want to reduce the time I spend with my current partners. I would be open to a FWB though, or something like that. I'm not sure what can develop out of me and Bob because I'm not sure what his situation is right now or what he even thinks about me. But I think he could make a nice FWB if that were to happen. :cool:
I've been totally loving our conversations, as well. <3 I've also liked that we've had such compatible schedules that we've been able to talk really often. :) It feels like being closer.
I went to a really amazing event one night, we had a great time. Also, it's been a lovely weather around here lately, so we've taken some long walks and talked about stuff and relaxed together. Our financial and work situations are not good or secure, and likely won't be in the near future either. That's a part of living where we are. The stress gets to us both at times. But it's good to get out and focus on the things we enjoy here. To aim to be satisfied with the good sides of the current situation, and avoid worrying about tomorrow.
My sweet, lovely, amazing rory! <3 Tomorrow is our first anniversary and she sent me a beautiful bouquet of flowers delivered to my door. Oh my god, I was so surprised! I'm almost crying here, this was such a beautiful gesture. And I thought our upcoming vacation to Paris was the romantic part of this anniversary. :o
I also loved how JJ reacted when I got the flowers. He was smiling and just looked utterly happy for me, which he also said. :)
My darlings. <3
^I enjoyed planning that, so glad you're happy :) <3
I feel a push to write, since I really do want to update about the everyday life, since that is what I most enjoy in life. Even more than analysing everything to death, believe it or not. :D I just don't know what to write.
Everything is well in the poly front. I had my one year anniversary with Mya go by, and just after it my 8-year-anniversary with Alec. So, we've now been poly for a year. It's been all very smooth and comfortable for many months, which I am obviously very happy about. I feel like poly has become quite a natural part of my life. Even more, I feel like Mya has become a part of my life. There's just no question about it, we are in this to stay, and I love that.
Okay, now me and JJ finally have some plans for the near future. It's all been a bit unsure because he didn't know what was going to happen with his job. He got a continuation to his contract until the end of the year and he wants to take it. I want to move to Wonderland and work there. So I'm moving in a few months (I still have plans in my home country, but when I've done everything, I can go) and he is moving there in December. Go me, again I'm putting myself in a situation where I have two long distance relationships. :rolleyes: It's like last summer all over again! :p When I'm in Wonderland, rory is going to be much closer (still in a different city though) and we can see each other at least couple times a month and it's way cheaper. Me and JJ are probably going to see each other about once in two months before he moves to Wonderland. But all that is ok. A part of me is actually looking forward to living alone for a while.
I've been feeling a bit restless for some time now. Like I would want to have more freedom and independence. I know I already have much more freedom than most people in (especially monogamous) relationships, but I'd like to have more. This thought is a bit abstract as in I don't really know what concrete things to ask for. For this need I think the living alone part suits well. Living alone is certainly not the way I would like to live forever but now, in this situation, it gives me some space to think more about myself.
If I think about the future and the living arrangements when rory and Alec move to Dream City as well, I still feel like the best solution for me would be all of us living together. I know, it's probably not going to happen. But in my ideal world all four of us would think of each other as something between family and roommates. We would all have our own rooms/spaces where we could be alone, too. But we would be more involved in each other's lives than roommates usually are. I think that kind of situation would in a way make me feel more independent than living just with JJ, because a) I'd have my own room, b) I wouldn't be the only one to keep my partner company, so I could come and go with less pressure to stay at home more, c) it would be less couple-centric than me living with JJ and rory living with Alec in different apartments, and d) it would be easier for any of us to have an outside lover (whether a one night stand or a more serious relationship) because we'd have our own rooms. I love the idea of a hippie-like commune with free love and all that! :D One can dream, right? :cool:
Dream away, girl! :p
I don't wish to take your fun away, but I do want to comment on the points you made. To a, I do manage to have my own space even in a two-people setting, there's no reason you couldn't. Obviously, Dream City is an expensive place to live in, so financial considerations might do the difference, i.e., it might be somewhat easier for 4 people to manage a house with 4 bedrooms+living room (though that might be a challenge, too), than for 2 people to manage two bedrooms (yet, one-bedroom might be enough for two to have private space, as it is for me and Alec currently). To b, I don't think that would be necessarily so. I don't know if I would be much help with that, being an introvert. :rolleyes: Besides, JJ's needs for your company are one thing, and his needs for company in general are another.
C is kinda sorta true if you wish to look at it that way. But d I don't completely agree with again. If we had two apartments between the four of us, it would be easier I think for the guys at least to have others (if they wish to) since I figure it would work fine for you or me to go and visit each other and the one having a date could have their flat to themselves. Besides, I'm not sure I see everybody being comfortable with having sex loudly if there are other people in the same apartment, whether it's two of us or somebody with another person. If there are four people living together, there's rarely going to be privacy for loud sex no matter who wants to have it; more likely to happen with two flats available.
No objections to being a hippie, though! :D
For me, the concept of all four of us living together feels attractive in a way. Proximity to both of my partners would be totally cool, I would love the practicality. Also, I would be doing poly better, right? (Just kidding with that! :rolleyes: )
However, for me there's more to the other side. I am an introvert and cannot help to feel quite a bit of anxiety at the thought of sharing a home with three other people, no matter how comfortable I am with them. At times I feel like living with one partner is too much, but that works because I have my own space, and do actually spend a lot of time home alone. I have had flexible schedules for a long time which allows me to do that, and I need it. That would be seriously harder living with more people.
I feel like a total buzzkill always coming up with reasons why co-habitation would not work. I also have a suspicion that because I always come off so against it Mya will feel like I don't want to live with her, which is completely not true. Also, my own need for space is something I still sometimes feel anxious to express (fear of not being enough), even though I have made the decision to not let my fear stop me from speaking, and I am working towards getting completely comfortable with it. However, I feel like I need to express it any time Mya brings up co-habitation, because I don't enjoy upholding wants that are unrealistic. Thus, I don't enjoy reveling too much in how great it would be if I could live with her, because in the practical circumstances I don't think that will happen any time soon. I know she approaches wants differently, so maybe I should just shut up and not be a total downer?
Dream away, girl! :p
I will, no matter what you say, you buzzkill. :p :D
I don't wish to take your fun away, but I do want to comment on the points you made. To a, I do manage to have my own space even in a two-people setting, there's no reason you couldn't. Obviously, Dream City is an expensive place to live in, so financial considerations might do the difference, i.e., it might be somewhat easier for 4 people to manage a house with 4 bedrooms+living room (though that might be a challenge, too), than for 2 people to manage two bedrooms (yet, one-bedroom might be enough for two to have private space, as it is for me and Alec currently).
Well, your current apartment is awesome for that, but most apartments I've seen are not. And I was thinking about the financial aspect as well, as in it would be easier to find a good apartment with 4 people having their own rooms than 2 people having their own rooms. But in a way you're right, that is something I could make happen while living with JJ, at least in theory.
To b, I don't think that would be necessarily so. I don't know if I would be much help with that, being an introvert. :rolleyes: Besides, JJ's needs for your company are one thing, and his needs for company in general are another.
There would be Alec, too, and not just you to keep JJ company at times. But you're right in that his needs for my company would still be there no matter what the living situation is.
C is kinda sorta true if you wish to look at it that way. But d I don't completely agree with again. If we had two apartments between the four of us, it would be easier I think for the guys at least to have others (if they wish to) since I figure it would work fine for you or me to go and visit each other and the one having a date could have their flat to themselves. Besides, I'm not sure I see everybody being comfortable with having sex loudly if there are other people in the same apartment, whether it's two of us or somebody with another person. If there are four people living together, there's rarely going to be privacy for loud sex no matter who wants to have it; more likely to happen with two flats available.
No objections to being a hippie, though! :D
C would actually be a big thing for me mentally in my quest for independence, but practicalities sometimes come in the way of my La-la-land dreams. What you're saying about the loud sex is true, but what if one of us wants to have it? Will you for example just send Alec to our place while you're doing it with someone else? :D So in this case I only half-agree with you, it would depend on who is the one wanting loud sex. :p Besides, it doesn't always have to be loud you know. ;)
I feel like a total buzzkill always coming up with reasons why co-habitation would not work. I also have a suspicion that because I always come off so against it Mya will feel like I don't want to live with her, which is completely not true. Also, my own need for space is something I still sometimes feel anxious to express (fear of not being enough), even though I have made the decision to not let my fear stop me from speaking, and I am working towards getting completely comfortable with it.
I don't think you don't want to live with me specifically, we've discussed this so many times that your opinion and the reasons behind it are quite clear to me. So all is well on that department. :) The only thing I'm having trouble understanding is that how would it be difficult to have your own space while living with 3 people if you could have your own room all to yourself? I know, we've discussed this too, but I just don't really get it. In my head I would have more my own space in a situation like that than living like we do now.
However, I feel like I need to express it any time Mya brings up co-habitation, because I don't enjoy upholding wants that are unrealistic. Thus, I don't enjoy reveling too much in how great it would be if I could live with her, because in the practical circumstances I don't think that will happen any time soon. I know she approaches wants differently, so maybe I should just shut up and not be a total downer?
I understand that we have a different perspective on wants. But these things are on my mind, whether I write about them or not. I'm not demanding or even asking anything from you that has to do with living arrangements. Could I just keep dreaming without any expectations that it will happen please? I did write several times that I understand this is probably not going to happen, so what do you want from me? To stop thinking about it or to stop writing about it?
The reason why these things are on my mind is that I'm thinking about the living arrangements thing constantly because mine and JJ's is changing all the time. I have to really ponder what I want in life and how I want to live. Even though my main concern right now is to figure out how I want to live next month and then again how I want to live in 4 months, my thoughts - quite logically I think - go to how I'd like to live in two years as well.
Well, maybe I'm the one that should shut up now.
Actually there's still one thing I'd like to add. Even though I was talking about real people, JJ, rory and Alec, it's mainly because they are in my life right now (and hopefully will be for a long time) and it's easy to imagine living with them. And I would like it, I'm pretty sure I would. This next one comes with the same disclaimer rory made for me earlier: It's not that I wouldn't want to live with her (because I would), but... But basically, this is more about me than any of them. I'm the one with the hippie-commune fantasy and it can be possible for me some day. Maybe not with them, but with someone else. Maybe JJ gets a girlfriend he would like to move in with and the three of us could live together. Or maybe I'll find a 3rd partner that would like the commune idea and she/he already has a partner or several and I'll move in with all of them. Or it doesn't even have to be with partners, I could just move in with close friends. Who knows? :rolleyes: This is my dream about how I would like to live. It might never happen with anyone, and I'm sure I could still be happy with different kind of arrangement as well. Or it might happen, because I pursued it, because I've been dreaming about it.
But it's my dream and it stays in my head no matter how unrealistic it is.
I did write several times that I understand this is probably not going to happen, so what do you want from me? To stop thinking about it or to stop writing about it?
Yes, you did write that very clearly, and I didn't mean to imply or say in any way that you should stop thinking or writing about it! I was just more pondering to myself (out loud, or well out visibly when it's writing), if I should just try to take your dreams as they are, as dreams, so that I wouldn't feel compelled to sort of "argue against it". Meaning that I was wondering if it would be rational for me to change my own behaviour in how I answer you when you bring it up, as you have made it clear that it's just dreams for you. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.
And I do agree that those dreams of communal living are totally realistic for you, and there is no reason why there may not some day be people with whom they can very well happen for you! You would fit in well in a hippie commune. :)
I am not sure if the need for space of an introvert is something an extrovert can ever completely relate to (just like I can't relate to being able to enjoy other's company for long periods of time no matter how much I might like to do so). But those are just our differences and differences is what makes things interesting, right? :p
Yes, you did write that very clearly, and I didn't mean to imply or say in any way that you should stop thinking or writing about it! I was just more pondering to myself (out loud, or well out visibly when it's writing), if I should just try to take your dreams as they are, as dreams, so that I wouldn't feel compelled to sort of "argue against it". Meaning that I was wondering if it would be rational for me to change my own behaviour in how I answer you when you bring it up, as you have made it clear that it's just dreams for you. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.
Ok, good. :) I'm glad we talked (or wrote) this through. I'm also sorry if I misinterpreted your words. Yes, I would appreciate it if you could take these things to mean they are just dreams to me and not argue against it. And if I start dreaming of becoming an actress or something, please don't remind me that it's very unlikely that this will happen. :p I want to dream and perhaps make the dreams happen in some form or another, if not in their original form. When I tell you about my hopes and dreams, it doesn't mean that I will do everything I dream about. But talking about them reveals something about me and helps you to see who I am. You don't have to either start arranging the thing to happen (=fix it) or make me see the light that the dream was actually quite silly. Sometimes I just want you to listen and take it all in, so that you know what goes on in my head. :)
And I do agree that those dreams of communal living are totally realistic for you, and there is no reason why there may not some day be people with whom they can very well happen for you! You would fit in well in a hippie commune. :)
Thanks, I think I would fit in there, too! :D
I am not sure if the need for space of an introvert is something an extrovert can ever completely relate to (just like I can't relate to being able to enjoy other's company for long periods of time no matter how much I might like to do so). But those are just our differences and differences is what makes things interesting, right? :p
It's not that I don't understand the need for space, I just think it's illogical to think you don't have your own space if you have a room all to yourself where you can spend the whole day without anyone coming in. I guess I tend to see roommates a bit like neighbours, they can also hear you through the walls and you might see them occasionally in the hallway. Okay, you see your roommates more than your neighbours but when it comes to your own space, I don't think there's much difference. Unless you want to spend all your own time in the kitchen for example.
It's not that I don't understand the need for space, I just think it's illogical to think you don't have your own space if you have a room all to yourself where you can spend the whole day without anyone coming in.
It's so confusing that it's actually for once me pointing out that not all emotions are logical. :p [Usually goes the other way around.] Maybe that feeling will change someday. But I am also not sure I could live with partners or metamours exactly as I would with roommates.
I hope that just because I tend to think about things in quite practical ways (i.e. if I have a dream, I will think about if there's a way I could make it happen), it doesn't always come off as me trying to fix something. I don't think I would be triggered to that fixing it sort of mode unless it was something really emotional and involving me, and I am more careful with that reaction nowadays anyway. I do enjoy hearing about your dreams, of course. :)
I hate to think that I would come off thinking your, or somebody else's, dreams are silly. :( I think dreams are great to have!
I hope that just because I tend to think about things in quite practical ways (i.e. if I have a dream, I will think about if there's a way I could make it happen), it doesn't always come off as me trying to fix something. I don't think I would be triggered to that fixing it sort of mode unless it was something really emotional and involving me, and I am more careful with that reaction nowadays anyway. I do enjoy hearing about your dreams, of course. :)
It doesn't always. But sometimes it does. I know it's not an easy reaction to get rid of when that's the way you've always done. I do try to remember this myself and remind you when you're doing it, and also not to take it the wrong way.
I hate to think that I would come off thinking your, or somebody else's, dreams are silly. :( I think dreams are great to have!
I kinda got that idea from this comment:
I don't enjoy upholding wants that are unrealistic.
^I wasn't trying to say anything about this particular dream of yours, I just got the feeling that you didn't think it was the most realistic/likely? (Still, unrealistic doesn't make something silly, it's perfectly fine to dream about things that may not happen).
Anyway, I will now stop giving you material for procrastination since I know you've got a lot of work to do. :p Let's talk more in Paris? <3
^ Alright alright. :p It's true, I still have a ton of work to do before our vacation. So I'll also stop commenting on this now. We'll be in Paris in two days, great! <3 See you there. :)
The Paris trip was wonderful. :) <3 So much talking, touching, loving and experiencing. I feel like we took a few big steps forward in understanding each other better. That was great, even though some discussions were quite emotional. But I just love the fact that we talk about everything. :)
Today I had a discussion with JJ about Bob. I told him that I'm interested in Bob but I don't know if anything will happen. He was just as cool as usual and was glad I told him. He also - like rory earlier - said "go for it!". :cool: I don't really need to tell in advance to my partners if I plan on doing anything sexual with someone else (we don't have a boundary like that), but I like doing that. I like talking about things that are on my mind and Bob is on my mind, so why wouldn't I. :)
I might be going out with Bob today. Not like a date, but we do have some uncertain plans on going to a bar together this evening. I'm still a bit tired from my trip but if he says he's going, I'm pretty sure I'm going too. :p So we'll see what happens. :cool:
Okay, plans got confirmed and I'm going out tonight. Yey! :p
So yesterday was great! I had sex with Bob. :cool: I'm really happy about that and I've been totally giddy today, both JJ and rory (via skype) have teased me about it. :o
So, me and Bob went to a bar together and talked about all sorts of things, including our open relationships. He's quite new to that so he was asking me questions about how we've handled some things and how is JJ taking everything. I was as open and honest as I could. Then we flirted and danced. We live in a small town so we were quite cautious, not everybody knows me and Bob are in open relationships. We stayed in the bar until it closed and after that we went to his place. There we danced a bit more, kissed and one thing lead to another. It was really nice! :) Today we've been texting a bit and we both think we'd like to do that again some day. So we are friends with maybe some occasional benefits in the future. :D
I was a little nervous about JJ's reaction because this is the first time I've slept with another man since we opened our relationship. He has said that it might feel somewhat worse than me sleeping with a woman (which he says doesn't feel bad at all), but he can't know for sure until it happens. But it was a piece of cake for him! Actually, in the morning when I told him what had happened, his first response was "Yey!". :D He said that he's just happy for me, because I had told him that I wanted to do this and now I did, so what's not to like. He said he surprised himself by not feeling anything negative. That's so great! :) And rory was also really cool about it, but that I wasn't really worried about because she's always so cool about these kinds of things. I have such awesome cool partners! :cool:
nycindie
04-20-2012, 07:35 PM
...I'm interested in Bob but I don't know if anything will happen...
So yesterday was great! I had sex with Bob. :cool:
You go girl! That's what I call progress! LOL http://polymatchmaker.com/graphics/smiles/hug.gif
You go girl! That's what I call progress! LOL http://polymatchmaker.com/graphics/smiles/hug.gif
I'd say so! :D
I spent another night with Bob yesterday. I really like the connection we have. It's so relaxed and natural. I feel so comfortable around him. He's awesome. :) I have to say I really really like my life right now. :cool:
Today I've been processing a lot. I've been thinking about a thing that rory has written about and I've talked about with her: feelings, attachment and expectations.
I want to write about love and attachment and expectations.
I've been processing those a lot since starting poly and even before that. I've reached a point lately where it feels quite easy for me to love without linking much expectation into it. It feels like loving without expectation is the most suitable approach for me towards relationships. In no way do I do that perfectly, but it is becoming easier.
To clarify what I'm talking about, I'll give you an example. A few years back I had sex with a friend of mine whom I liked a lot. It was a one time thing, but our friendship kept on deepening after that. I would have been open to having sex again, but my friend was not; and that made me feel somewhat sad and a bit rejected, but at no point did I let that affect our friendship. I have then made my peace with the fact that our relationship won't have that sexual side, and I no longer feel sad about that.
Now, I know that text talks about sex, but there is more to the picture. Had the feelings been mutual, I think I would have wanted a relationship (and the poly discussion with Alec would have come some years earlier). But they weren't, and when I talk about making peace with that, I also talk about letting go of attachment to an outcome. My feelings for my friend have not gone away, but they don't demand reciprocity. I do like to know that I am liked and cared for, but I do think our feelings are on different levels. I am fine with that, and allow our relationship be what it is.
Another instance where I've thought about these things is my friendship with Ally (who Mya mentioned in an earlier post). I have begun to realise that my desire to have sex with a person comes from a connection. It doesn't have to be deep enough that I would class it love, but qualitatively it is no different. I need to like and care for the person to want to have sex with them. Liking and caring for a person are also the components that love consists of, for me. So these things can confuse me a bit sometimes. Anyway, I wasn't going to go into the definition of love again. So where was I? :D
Yes, connection. Lately, I've felt like I would like to deepen my connection with Ally. It's not a pressing need, but I feel like it would be nice to become closer than we are now. Also, I've felt like I would be open to having sex with her, if the situation came up, and she was open to it. I've discussed the possibility quite a lot with Mya, and talking about it with her has helped me to figure out where I stand with it. She feels that if she was in my position, she would definitely not want to actually have sex because of the risks: the emotions may deepen into love, and thus it would hurt that there can't be a partnership (which there can't be between me and Ally for many reasons, the most obvious of which have to do with geography and neither of us having the practical or emotional availability for an additional relationship at least any time soon). I can understand her point of view, since that's really what culture tells us will inevitably happen if emotions are involved: that if you can't be in a relationship with a person you love, it will cause you unreasonable amounts of hurt. And I think that's how it works for some people. But I don't think that's inevitable for everybody.
If I were to have sex with Ally, it is likely that my feelings would deepen. I would probably feel closer and more connected to her. However, that wouldn't change anything respective to our circumstances, so even if that did cause me to desire a relationship with her, it wouldn't be possible. I don't deny there isn't a slight chance that it would hurt not being able to become more. But I highly doubt it would be in any way unbearable. That's just how life is, you can't always get everything you want. I can live with whatever feelings there are, and they don't dictate my actions.
Now, I've completely changed my mind about this statement that I once said:
She feels that if she was in my position, she would definitely not want to actually have sex because of the risks: the emotions may deepen into love, and thus it would hurt that there can't be a partnership
I'm amazed how calm I am now when thinking about the possibility/risk of falling in love with Bob. I've made a complete turnaround because right now I feel it's totally possible to have feelings, even love, for someone and not expect much from that person. To just enjoy the situation, the feeling and the connection without expecting or hoping for a relationship. Me and Bob can't have a relationship. I don't have time/energy for a third partner, I don't think he wants to have more relationships than the one he's in now, and besides, in a few months we're going to live very very far away from each other (he's moving abroad as well, to a totally different direction than me). To top it off, I'm not even sure we would be that compatible, but this one I'm not really sure about yet, since I'm still getting to know him better. Anyway, although I'll never say never, it seems very unlikely that we would become a couple. And that is perfectly fine. :) I'm really coming to terms with that thought and I love it! I feel like I'm making some progress in non-attachment, which I absolutely crave for. One step at a time. :)
nycindie
04-22-2012, 09:40 PM
I'm amazed how calm I am now when thinking about the possibility/risk of falling in love with Bob. I've made a complete turnaround because right now I feel it's totally possible to have feelings, even love, for someone and not expect much from that person. To just enjoy the situation, the feeling and the connection without expecting or hoping for a relationship. Me and Bob can't have a relationship. I don't have time/energy for a third partner, I don't think he wants to have more relationships than the one he's in now, and besides, in a few months we're going to live very very far away from each other (he's moving abroad as well, to a totally different direction than me). To top it off, I'm not even sure we would be that compatible, but this one I'm not really sure about yet, since I'm still getting to know him better. Anyway, although I'll never say never, it seems very unlikely that we would become a couple. And that is perfectly fine. :) I'm really coming to terms with that thought and I love it! I feel like I'm making some progress in non-attachment, which I absolutely crave for. One step at a time. :)
Sorry to keep chiming in, but I love this.
Non-attachment in loving is so important, I think. I am learning more about this every day. You are expressing something similar to how I feel about Lively. Even though he is my only lover right now, there are certain reasons why I cannot expect nor demand more from him than he can give. His type of depression and our 17-year age difference are two factors, in addition to my life being pretty fucked up right now as I am dealing with my divorce and a very tough financial situation. Yet, I love him in ways that sometimes surprise me. I don't think I would say I'm "in love," (not sure if I will ever use that phrase again, actually) but he has definitely touched my heart and I love him. But I don't have unrealistic hopes and expectations about us (though I do have some fantasies I occasionally indulge in ;)). Ten months and still feeling euphoria when we spend time together, but being unattached keeps my feet on the ground. I like that.
No need to apologize, nycindie. I love your chiming in. :) Thanks for sharing your thoughts, your situation sounds really nice. :) Although I don't love Bob, I don't know how my feelings might change if we keep doing what we're doing. But now that I've gotten to the bottom of how I want to handle this, I know I don't have to worry too much about my feelings. They are what they are and they might deepen but I don't want to be careful about that. I just want to keep my expectations to minimum when it comes to Bob (and some other things too, but that will take more work). Right now I feel like I can do this without getting hurt. Who knows, I may end up heartbroken, but I just really don't think that'll happen. :)
It has certainly been interesting for me as well. This is a new experience for me, a partner having a new interest. While I have been non-monogamous for the past four years, Alec hasn't had any activity with others during that time, and neither has Mya since we've been together (besides JJ but he was already there in a different way).
To a very large extent I am feeling good. I totally enjoy compersion. I feel happy that Mya is happy, and I feel glad about the comfort and enjoyment she is getting with Bob.
There is a tiny feeling of strangeness, though. It doesn't take away from my wholehearted endorsement or their relationship, whatever is included in it. It's not really discomfort, more like a bit of restlessness.
Since I always like over-analysing stuff, that is what I will proceed to do. I just don't want it to cloud the fact that I am feeling mostly happy and calm. :p I think the feeling of strangeness comes from a few places.
Firstly, it's just the new experience of partner having a new sexual(/potentially romantic) interest. I feel fine with that, it's simply new. It's something concrete, a potential change for her in her life. I have spent so much time thinking about how I might feel when this happens, and me and Mya have spent time talking about Bob. Yet, it's almost surprising to finally have the experience. It's not bad at all. :)
Secondly, there's a bit of ego. After all, I was the new and shiny with Mya just a while ago. And now I'm no longer quite as new (while still perhaps a bit shiny). Oh noes. :p There's somebody else she's experiencing new things with. And I do want that. I completely wish good, enjoyable experiences for her whether with me or not. It was just some ego stroking to be the only new and shiny for a while. :p
Thirdly, there's a tiny bit of envy. Bob is there close to Mya and I'm here, and I have to wait for my hot sex with her. This feeling is a familiar one, though, since the sex with Bob is simply a reminder that I'd like to have sex with Mya but can't right now. In an LDR, that feeling happens from time to time, whether there are specific reminders or not.
New is sometimes a bit strange, but that will pass. Ego stroking is something I can certainly live without. ;) And I have made peace with our distance a long time ago, so that's no biggie. And it is fun to see Mya all happy and gloaty (and get to tease her a bit). :D
I was also going to write about another thing. I love, and couldn't function in another way, how me and Alec live together. We are two independent persons, with our own, quite separate lives in separate spaces, but we do come together daily for some time together. If not agreed otherwise, we eat together, while watching something relaxing from a dvd, and sleep together. And we do shopping together. Now, that may sound boring to some, but I really enjoy our routines. And I enjoy the autonomy of my own time and space. That is, we have hardly any expectations from each other time-wise even if we are both home.
However, as is maybe a common phenomenon for many who live together with a partner, when you can have quality time together almost any time, it may have the effect that you don't take the time in the right now. It tends to happen to us at times. What I mean by quality time is time where you have the energy and concentration to be completely present for each other.
I notice it first from feeling disconnected. Disconnect isn't anything dangerous, but I'd rather stay connected when it's possible to do so. The connection is, after all, one of the things I most value in a relationship, I like to enjoy that. Also, it takes some effort to reconnect, and for me it is a bit contradictory process with Alec. I don't really feel like being intimate sexually before I feel the connection again, but it is sometimes hard for us to get there without that (because that is how he best connects, and I do tend to feel a lot closer after sex, too).
Anyway, I talked with Alec about the quality time thing. He agrees that it sometimes happens that we are both so deep in our separate activities that we forget to make quality time together. It's nobody's fault, it simply happens. And it will happen again, which is alright, but for now both of us are paying a bit of attention to that. We had a really nice time together on the weekend, then, so right now no troubles with the connection thing. :)
There is a way of thought which can be seen in many people who write about poly. It has to do with "working on one's own shit" or "growing as a person"; it often comes up with regards to jealousy. Partly, it resonates with me strongly, but I do take issue with the extent to which it is sometimes taken to.
I have a strong personal commitment to growing as a person. I rarely think of it in those terms, though. Sometimes it comes from willingness, and sometimes it can border on obsession, but I do analyse stuff (no kidding? :rolleyes: - analysing the analysing). We all gather a unique set of baggage in life. I find mine easier to deal with by analysing it, finding causes for my emotional responses and reactions to emotions. For me it is quite often (though not always) the case if I find causes for my (negative) emotions that are in conflict with my core values/reasoning, the emotions become irrelevant and soon disappear altogether. For example, I've felt jealousy before, but once I thought about it and came to the conclusion that even if the person finds somebody they like as much or even more than me, it doesn't in any way devalue what we have together. After that jealous feelings have been irrelevant to me, and they have also been rare and mild. This is not, I have found, how it works for everybody. For me, the processing produces an instant reward, so no wonder I do it constantly.
My life becomes easier with processing, but some people may well feel differently about it. Tiresome, useless, endless, frustrating. I completely accept that. Now, if a person has baggage that causes them to act in very hurtful ways, that is something they have a responsibility to not inflict upon others; i.e. work through it or not be in relationships. But baggage isn't always that extreme. Sometimes it's just little quirks, tiny things that are easy for partners to accommodate, if they wish to do so (they may not and that is a valid choice as it is not their responsibility - if they don't then both have choices to make).
I try to word what I'm getting at, but as simple as I feel it to be, it seems complex when I try to explain it. It is about boundaries though.
As much I believe in everybody being responsibile for their own shit, I also believe in accepting the person you love as they are. That means with the baggage. This is not the same as putting up with crap, oh no! If the behaviour is something you can't live with it is your responsibility to decide that and not be in that relationship. If it is something you can live with, then live with it without the expectation for the person to change. If they do decide, some day, to work on that shit that is their decision which can be supported.
There are number of valid choices. There is "I am committed to growing as a person, and working through my baggage. I will only be in a relationship with people who have a similar attitude". There is "I am committed to growing as a person, and working through my baggage. I am fine being in a relationship with a person who doesn't share that aim, as long as they don't ask me to accommodate unreasonable things". There is "I just want to live my life and not use my time to endlessly think about why I'm feeling what I feel and doing what I do; I know there may be some things that are messed up but since I am not harming other people with them then I am fine with that".
It is not fine to say "since I process my shit you have to, too"; it is fine to say "I process my shit, and I won't be in a relationship with somebody who doesn't do that".
I feel that sometimes a person with the first attitude projects that onto other people as well (in the form of implicit thought if you don't do this you are lesser poly). I.e. "To be poly you have to be up for endless analysing/processing, and you have to require the same from your partners". I think that if personal growth is your kink, poly is an excellent way to facilitate that. But I don't think you have to have that preference to be poly.
Obviously, no matter what relationship configuration, it is not okay to harm others with own shit (though we are human and it will sometimes happen, but the ethical thing is to take responsibility and work on not doing it again when it does). Being reluctant to process does not mean a free pass on whatever crap you wish to pull. But it is also not a requirement to strive to become the perfect you. It is just fine being happy as you are and finding partners who are compatible.
This is why I cringe at the extreme condemnations of jealousy. It is definitely not okay to act on jealousy in ways that are hurtful to others. But it is okay to, say, want monogamy. It is okay to want polyfidelity. It is okay to be poly and still have some agreements/rules (not ones that are harmful to others, though). Jealousy may sometimes be a sign of insecurity, but not all insecurity needs to be gotten rid of. You may want to work to get rid of it, but if you don't, that is fine a valid choice (as long as, again, it is not harmful to others).
On a more personal note, my partners are different in the way they approach the whole processing thing. Mya is like me in this respect, the both of us enjoy good analysing session like nothing else. :p Alec is more to the "just living life" side of things. And poly has still worked just fine for us. It is my choice to accept him as he is, with baggage and all. I do resent the implication that I am doing poly wrong (:rolleyes:) by accommodating some insecurities he has. Just because it is somebody's choice to only be in relationships with people who work to get rid of all their insecurities, it is no less valid to choose otherwise. I do not feel limited or restricted, this is what I want. If I did not want it I would not be with him. If he expected me to accommodate his insecurities, yet were not willing to accommodate mine, I would be out the door so fast. But just because I feel my life to be easier with processing, and thus don't happen to ask him to accommodate my insecurities, does not mean that he has to do things the same way, or that I'm in some way taken advantage of. Just like even if I want another partner and he doesn't, he is not taken advantage of. It's just differences.
I seem to have developed a guilt issue. :rolleyes: Even though I've only been with Bob a couple of times, I'm starting to feel guilty about the fact that I'm having more sex than JJ. That was true even before this, since I've had rory, but somehow that didn't trigger the guilt feeling. Probably because me and rory have always lived in different places and haven't been able to have sex very often anyway. Now that it's possible to have it often with Bob (although I have no idea how often we're going to get together in the future), I feel it. I know it's not logical so I'm trying to process the feeling. I want to enjoy life and JJ isn't saying anything to make me feel guilty. I even asked him if he would like to express a preference to me about something, like how often I'm away or something. He said he doesn't want to do that, he's got no idea what would be the thing that would make him feel bad, if anything, so we'll just have to wait and see if that happens at some point. Even though that sounds great, it also makes me a bit nervous because I don't know if I'm hurting him until I do. Well, such is life I guess. :rolleyes:
Me and JJ are having a party in a few days. Bob is invited and he's probably coming. :) I'm excited about that. JJ and Bob have met before, because I've known Bob a long time, but they haven't really talked much. I hope and very strongly believe that everything's going to go well. Both JJ and Bob are calm, non-dramatic people (that's the only kind I like! :p) and they both know what's going on so I have no reason to believe they wouldn't get along.
AnnabelMore
04-25-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm just gonna say "Go JJ!" here. :) Many people might choose to come up with a list of rules/guidelines in this situation that would arbitrarily restrict you and not end up providing them with any real sense of security. Instead he's looking inwards and admitting that he doesn't know what he needs yet, if anything, because things are still too new. I think that shows an awesome level of honesty and courage, a desire to be real rather than to have all the answers. Rock on.
wildflowers
04-26-2012, 01:01 AM
On a more personal note, my partners are different in the way they approach the whole processing thing. Mya is like me in this respect, the both of us enjoy good analysing session like nothing else. :p Alec is more to the "just living life" side of things. And poly has still worked just fine for us. It is my choice to accept him as he is, with baggage and all. I do resent the implication that I am doing poly wrong (:rolleyes:) by accommodating some insecurities he has.
Thank you for this. I'm a fan of processing and communicating a lot too, and have struggled at times with the fact that my boyfriend "just lives" more, is probably more instinctive in his actions and reactions. I generally accept this now, but with all the processing talk it is easy to feel like you're managing a relationship "wrong" if that isn't always happening. It's nice to hear an occasional approval for letting things be.
I'm just gonna say "Go JJ!" here. :) Many people might choose to come up with a list of rules/guidelines in this situation that would arbitrarily restrict you and not end up providing them with any real sense of security. Instead he's looking inwards and admitting that he doesn't know what he needs yet, if anything, because things are still too new. I think that shows an awesome level of honesty and courage, a desire to be real rather than to have all the answers. Rock on.
You're right. :) I'm very proud of JJ for not making up boundaries in this new situation when he really doesn't know yet what's to come.
Right now I'm feeling quite restless. I feel like contacting Bob all the time but I don't do it because I want to keep it cool. And I don't mean "act" cool in his eyes, but stay cool within myself. Although I'm not sure this approach is helping much with that. I so would've wanted to keep this as casual as possible without the need for big talks but I guess that's not who I am. Not talking about it is not how I roll. :p I think at some point I need to know where his head is and get some clarity. I still don't want more than what I've described here earlier but I guess I'd just like to know if that is what he wants too. There is the possibility that he wants something more than me, which I don't really believe, and there's also the possibility that he wants less than me - like never seeing me again. Who knows. :rolleyes:
Thank you for this. I'm a fan of processing and communicating a lot too, and have struggled at times with the fact that my boyfriend "just lives" more, is probably more instinctive in his actions and reactions. I generally accept this now, but with all the processing talk it is easy to feel like you're managing a relationship "wrong" if that isn't always happening. It's nice to hear an occasional approval for letting things be.
You're welcome :) I have a similar experience, in that I've struggled at times with accepting that quality of Alec's. I do like processing a lot, and have sometimes felt frustrated with him because he is not like that. Doesn't mean that he doesn't talk, just that he doesn't analyse all bits and pieces to death. But I have felt that processing isn't really a need for me in a relationship, just in general in life, so I can do it with other people (friends, and nowadays also with Mya). I do feel there's a bit of a cultural pressure coming from "a partner must meet all your needs" -direction, and once I let that go, I was able to fully appreciate Alec as he is. That is priceless for me, because wishing somebody was different doesn't feel loving to me, and I have an extreme aversion to the whole concept of trying to change somebody.
Annabel I totally agree with what you wrote about JJ. That's the way to go! :)
Btw, Mya, I don't think the talk with Bob needs to be all that big unless you think that it has to and thus make it so. There's no rule that you can't just ask, casually "I was wondering how you feel about things between us and how often would you like us to meet. I was thinking X, how does that sound?". Then he says "I'm fine, I was thinking Y, does that work for you?", and you say, "Great". No Big Discussion. Unless either one of you directs it into the Big Discussion Ground, but you won't if you don't feel like you want to do that, and if he does then surely he's not scared of it. (You do need to know what X is, first. I.e. what you want.) What do you think? :) [Unless a Big Discussion is what you want, which I think is totally fine even with casual, but I obviously don't know his thoughts.]
Btw, Mya, I don't think the talk with Bob needs to be all that big unless you think that it has to and thus make it so. There's no rule that you can't just ask, casually "I was wondering how you feel about things between us and how often would you like us to meet. I was thinking X, how does that sound?". Then he says "I'm fine, I was thinking Y, does that work for you?", and you say, "Great". No Big Discussion. Unless either one of you directs it into the Big Discussion Ground, but you won't if you don't feel like you want to do that, and if he does then surely he's not scared of it. (You do need to know what X is, first. I.e. what you want.) What do you think? :) [Unless a Big Discussion is what you want, which I think is totally fine even with casual, but I obviously don't know his thoughts.]
You're right that it doesn't need to be a Big Discussion. I guess I'm a bit afraid that all those kinds of discussions that involve the future somehow, even if it's about how often we'd like to see each other, seem kinda big in this situation. I mean, how often do friends have a discussion about how often they'd like to see each other? It just happens naturally and takes the form it takes. I feel like it might be too much of a commitment even to agree seeing each other X amount regularly. But I don't know. I'm sure that because it's me we're talking about, the conversation will have to happen at some point to figure all this out.
nycindie
04-26-2012, 09:27 AM
Awww, Mya, that restless feeling - you just sound all giddy and full of NRE.
Breathe. Rory's right, I think. It need not be a big deal to talk to Bob. In the beginning it can be hard to know how often to contact a new lover, but all you can do is reach out and see how long he takes to respond, and then sit with it for a bit. You can even toss in something like a casual, "hope I'm not bothering you" when you text him and see what he says.
But I think it might even be a little too soon to ask for an assessment of where it's going. Why not just keep it loose for a while and make plans with him when you can, not getting focused on what "the schedule" will be. I am also someone who ruminates and analyzes stuff, and I have found it to be a valuable lesson not to give in to the temptation to spew all my thoughts and questions on someone. I get to really feel the "not knowing" in my bones and it helps me get more comfortable with uncertainty.
Awww, Mya, that restless feeling - you just sound all giddy and full of NRE.
Breathe. Rory's right, I think. It need not be a big deal to talk to Bob. In the beginning it can be hard to know how often to contact a new lover, but all you can do is reach out and see how long he takes to respond, and then sit with it for a bit. You can even toss in something like a casual, "hope I'm not bothering you" when you text him and see what he says.
But I think it might even be a little too soon to ask for an assessment of where it's going. Why not just keep it loose for a while and make plans with him when you can, not getting focused on what "the schedule" will be. I am also someone who ruminates and analyzes stuff, and I have found it to be a valuable lesson not to give in to the temptation to spew all my thoughts and questions on someone. I get to really feel the "not knowing" in my bones and it helps me get more comfortable with uncertainty.
Noooooo, not NRE! :eek: :p It can't be, we don't even have a relationship. :D
I agree with you and think it's too soon to talk about schedules, definitely. Or any kind of plans for the future. Although I will have to have a discussion with him at some point, it's not going to happen yet. I'm just so used to talking about everything with rory and nowadays also with JJ (we've grown to be much better communicators with each other through poly) that it just feels weird not talking about every single emotion or thought I have with that person. :rolleyes: But also, it is very important to get comfortable with uncertainty so I'll take this opportunity to learn that. Maybe it's not so bad not knowing right away what the other one is thinking.
Noooooo, not NRE! :eek: :p It can't be, we don't even have a relationship. :D
Oh, I don't think that makes you safe. ;)
Oh, I don't think that makes you safe. ;)
I know, I know, I was just joking. :D But I also think calling this NRE already is a bit of a stretch..
nycindie
04-26-2012, 08:26 PM
I know, I know, I was just joking. :D But I also think calling this NRE already is a bit of a stretch..
Well, it might not technically be a Relationship yet, but when I read your post about feeling restless and not knowing what to say or how often to contact him, I thought of that euphoric feeling when you start seeing someone and it's all deliciously tingly yet angsty and the same time. That crazy feeling of wanting to know if someone you like, likes you back the same way - limerence, I guess, would be more accurate, or maybe infatuation. I don't usually use the term NRE so maybe I had it mixed up with limerence.
I thought it was cute on you, anyway! Sorry! :p
Well, it might not technically be a Relationship yet, but when I read your post about feeling restless and not knowing what to say or how often to contact him, I thought of that euphoric feeling when you start seeing someone and it's all deliciously tingly yet angsty and the same time. That crazy feeling of wanting to know if someone you like, likes you back the same way - limerence, I guess, would be more accurate, or maybe infatuation. I don't usually use the term NRE so maybe I had it mixed up with limerence.
I thought it was cute on you, anyway! Sorry! :p
No no, I don't mind you guys teasing me about this. I do feel like a schoolgirl with a crush and I don't blame you for pointing that out. :p I guess the mention of NRE just made all this sound so.. serious? And I just don't want to get ahead of things when I have no idea what's going to happen. I think the word relationship is really getting to me because that is exactly what we don't and won't have. I just keep picturing him reading these messages and running away after reading about all this relationship-y stuff. :p He's not poly, he's in an open relationship, so I don't even know if he is "allowed" to develop/express feelings for other people. He might just want to have sex with me a few times and that's that.
... Although he just confirmed that he is coming to the party we're having soon. Yey! :) That must mean he is willing to also see me with my clothes on. :D
Okay, I've spent almost my whole day today talking to people, mainly about relationships. First me and rory spoke about 7 hours on skype and then I chatted with Bob for a while. I made some pretty big realisations when talking to rory about my relationships and the future. We talked about our expectations for the time when we both live in the same city. Obviously our thoughts and situations can change a lot before that happens but I'm glad we got somewhere with that. :)
And then Bob. I feel much better now, not nearly as restless as before. He said he considers an open relationship to be open for feelings, too. And that he's never been in a poly relationship but who knows about the future. He seems very open to everything that might happen in life. There are no strict rules in his relationship, I was glad to hear that. :) All this made me feel.. peaceful. I still don't know if anything more will actually happen between us or how he feels about me, but somehow I feel glad that whatever form this takes, it's only restricted by us and what we want.
I'll write a bit about what Mya and I talked about for the future, once all of us are in the same city (in a couple of years). Earlier we've thought that maybe it would work best to have a sleeping schedule of about two nights a week for me and Mya sleeping together (plus some time spent awake, obviously, but we feel that's more flexible). Now we were talking about how we both feel two set nights somewhat restraining. However, talking about it in more detail we realised the feeling came from expecting those nights to be quality time and prioritised over much else.
Neither of us subscribes to comparison of relationships, and I've let go of the whole aim of fairness/equality (replacing it with whatever everybody truly wants). Yet, somehow, in the sleeping schedule thing there remained a bit of that. Originally, I was the one who suggested that I would want 5 nights with Alec and 2 with Mya (due to differences in relationships and ways of keeping connected), and she was understanding of that. Somehow I felt like since "we only get those two nights" they must be something more spectacular. Sort of making up for it.
But that is not the reality, and that is not what either of us wants. Oh, we do look forward to having more time together in person, both quality and..what's the opposite? Routine? We will make time for each other, but having set evenings/nights for quality time is too restrictive. Who knows if one of us is in quality-time-mode on that specific time? And what about other things in life, friends, hobbies? Can't there ever be an event scheduled for "our night"? Or if there is, will we reschedule our night for the next night? Suddenly those descriptions people have about poly being a scheduling nightmare seem to be awaiting us.
However, that is not what either of us wants. We want flexibility. We want routine. So, right now the thought is something like this: we'll have two routine sleepovers. If that night happens to be a night with loads of evening time before it and talking and sex and intimacy, that's cool. If that night happens to be the night I'm tired and antisocial, that's cool. If that night happens to be the night on the town with a friend for one of us, leaving us only couple of hours or none together, that's cool. Those things are life. And we don't want to prioritise each other above other things in life (just as we won't prioritise other things in life above each other), and we don't want the pressure that is created if our time always is expected to be quality time. This is to last, this is for life. Let it be life.
SNeacail
04-30-2012, 07:20 PM
What about:
at LEAST 2 days with Mya
at LEAST 3-4 days with Alec
and the remaining time will be spent as the situation and mood demands. Give yourself a little bit more flexibility.
What about:
at LEAST 2 days with Mya
at LEAST 3-4 days with Alec
and the remaining time will be spent as the situation and mood demands. Give yourself a little bit more flexibility.
I can see where you're coming from but I think we've already agreed on flexibility. The only thing that wouldn't change often is that me and rory get those 2 nights every week. Those are the routine nights but obviously there can be weeks we'd have more, it all depends on the situation. But the thing is that in the long run rory and Alec's relationship needs more nights together than 3 a week. I would think 4 would be okay on some weeks but 5 is probably best for them. And like rory mentioned, we can well see each other as many times a week as we like, even every day if we want to (if we get to live as close to each other as we wish). It was the nights that we were talking about, the sleep-next-to-each-other-time. That's important to rory and Alec. I wouldn't want to see their relationship not getting what it needs to flourish when ours can do well with the aforementioned 2 nights a week. :)
Then to another topic. The party I mentioned earlier went really well! :) We had a blast. JJ and Bob got along well, there was absolutely no weirdness around anything. Also, the female friend JJ had sex with - you know the case - she was there too. I have no issue with her, it was JJ who broke our agreement about the safe sex and she is, and always has been, very nice to me. So that went great too, I talked to her a lot. We're also going to her bithday party next month. So yeah, the party was a success. :)
I have two friends that have been living abroad for a long time and they are coming here in a few days to spend the summer in their/our home country. I'm so happy about that! That's actually one of my biggest reasons to stay here until the end of summer now that I know JJ isn't coming with me in September. So, one of these friends doesn't have a place to stay yet so she's going to live with us until she finds an apartment for the summer. We (me and JJ) are moving in a couple of weeks ourselves so this arrangement is going to be very temporary. But I like this plan. Remember all the talk about hippie commune and living with friends? I get to do that for a tiny while now, great! :D And also, since this friend of mine doesn't know yet where she wants to move next (but she knows it's not going to be our home town, she's here only for the summer), she is now considering Dream City as well! I would be so excited and happy if she came along with me in September/end of August and maybe we could even be roommates in Dream City. That would be amazing. :) I try not to get my hopes up, but inside I'm really hoping this is going to happen. But anyway, whatever happens in September, I'm going to enjoy her company a lot now that she's here.
SNeacail thanks for your comment. :) I'm not dead set on the schedule we've been thinking about, and I feel that we'll just see how it goes once we're there. It's nice to have some idea, though. I do like to aim for flexibility, anyway.
----
I finished with studying a while back, and have since been taking well-earned rest. I've now started to look for work in earnest. I'm both hopeful and nervous at the possibility of getting a job. I haven't really been to a job interview in... um, four years or something (I've been working at the same place). And never in this country, which is a bit scary. On the other hand, having no money is also scary. :rolleyes:
Luckily I managed to land a part-time voluntary position, which will start in a couple of weeks and last for about six months. I'm happy about that, since no matter how much I like to have time for myself, I do think the possibility of having nothing to do for the whole summer would be making me batty right now.
I made a plan with Alec to talk about sex every week. There's a reminder about it in his phone. :cool: I feel that our sex life needs regular discussions for maintenance, and those don't seem to happen on their own, so now we're trying this. I'm very happy about this plan. :)
I really miss rory right now. It's been a month since we saw each other the last time and it's going to be another month before we get to meet again. This is an exceptionally long time between visits but that's how it is now. I'm going on holiday with friends this month and I can't afford to fly twice a month. I'd love to just be close to her and touch her. I can't wait for the time when we live in the same country and get to see each other more often!
I've spent a lot of time with the friend I mentioned in my last post. We've been having a blast! I'm so glad she's here now and I get to spend time with her. :) I've also worked a lot so this week has been quite intense and busy.
I think I can now call Bob my FWB since it's becoming quite clear that our "benefit" encounters are going to continue. We had a good conversation yesterday when I went to his place and we both feel good about this, whatever this is. It's working well and I think both of us are in the same place with our expectations - or actually the lack of expectations. It's not going to be fun to end the physical side of our friendship when we move to different places in a few months, but that's life. I've decided to enjoy the moment and not worry too much about the future. Wish me luck. :rolleyes: :D
I feel the same way about missing Mya. A month feels like a throughoutly long time. The time since Paris has went by quite fast, but at the moment it is crawling (for me the reason is very possibly that I don't yet have a job). Anyway, I'm determined not to be focused on that. We have a skype date soon, that should be fun.
I had a really wonderful weekend. I skyped with Mya and a friend of mine, so I feel quite social. :p I also spent a lot of time with Alec, we gamed together and did other things, it was lovely. I did have quite adequate time for myself, as well, and I read a book.
I haven't spend much time on the Internet lately, and I'm thinking I'll take even more off. Not a total break, but I will attempt to only spend my time on things that give more than they take. I will definitely be visiting the journal section on this forum, and perhaps the general discussions. However, I think I'll skip reading poly stuff elsewhere for a while. When first becoming poly, I found so many useful and interesting things, but lately I've felt like I'm putting energy into things that aren't giving as much. First I got huge practical use out of what I read and processed, but now I feel that I've internalised most of what I feel is beneficial, and I want to concentrate on living only. I guess I'm polysaturated in relation to information at the moment. :D
fuchka
05-21-2012, 08:45 AM
"I feel glad that whatever form this takes, it's only restricted by us and what we want." - I really like this feeling when I'm relating to someone
Ah, the missing. I feel your pain :) For us, hopefully will be just under a year before we're all back in the same city again.
Hang in there x
"I feel glad that whatever form this takes, it's only restricted by us and what we want." - I really like this feeling when I'm relating to someone
Ah, the missing. I feel your pain :) For us, hopefully will be just under a year before we're all back in the same city again.
Hang in there x
Thanks for the comment, fuchka! I really like the feeling, too. :)
Yeah, you know what we're talking about with the missing and LDRs. You hang in there as well!
fuchka thank you <3
---
However, I think I'll skip reading poly stuff elsewhere for a while. When first becoming poly, I found so many useful and interesting things, but lately I've felt like I'm putting energy into things that aren't giving as much. First I got huge practical use out of what I read and processed, but now I feel that I've internalised most of what I feel is beneficial, and I want to concentrate on living only.
This has been working well. Actually, I've enjoyed rechanneling my energy and getting excited about something else for a change. I've read quite a bit about kink, and will probably continue at that for a while. Though while reading about kink it is unavoidable to stumble across some poly posts once in a while, since there's a bit of overlap. Or should I say, there's a correlation between alternative relationship styles and openness other kind of alternative relationship styles, not surprisingly. And generally openness is a quality that I will find interesting in a person, so the texts I end up reading are often written by persons who are open to different things. Yet, I've felt a bit weary when reading about heavy-duty relationship stuff, and more energy towards other subjects, so this confirms that it's time for a break from more extensive reading about it.
I think my exhaustion has something to do with poly-norms. They are not something tangible, and they are constantly negotiated. Yet, reading people's views about what poly should be like and what relationships should be like, or simply descriptions of how relationships work for them, has some kind of effect. I think for a long time it has been a positive effect: it has caused me to reflect on what I want in relation to that - "yes for me that similar independence is important but no, I would like to have relationship with this form of intimacy instead of that, etc.". I think that has helped me to figure out many things about what I want. However, now I think reading more feels a bit more constraining than liberating. There are various frameworks through which people understand their relationships, but I guess it is time for me to move beyond reflection, and process more through my own, unique framework of understanding. Not because it's better, but because it suits me just like other people's suit them. Obviously my view will have loads of similarities with other people's, and differences, too, and I enjoy finding those out. It just somehow feels like I have to take the time and space for it to continue forming with less reflection for a while.
I have absolutely no idea if any of that makes any sense at all. Anyway, I wanted to write about that regardless. I feel good and satisfied, I'm in a good place with myself and my life, including my relationships. Right now I feel no anxiety about future, poly-wise. The whole "not being enough" -fear that I've had a long time; it is gone. At least for now. I am what I am, I will choose what kind of things I want to pursue, and what I want to put my time and energy into, in life. That includes people I love in the ways they want to be a part of it and I want them to be a part of it. Somehow it all feel simple. There's some social conditioning I've managed to shed off, because it now feels simpler than it used to.
I made a plan with Alec to talk about sex every week. There's a reminder about it in his phone. :cool: I feel that our sex life needs regular discussions for maintenance, and those don't seem to happen on their own, so now we're trying this. I'm very happy about this plan. :)
Oh, update! This has been working very well so far. Although his phone proved unreliable, so we switched the reminder to my phone. It hasn't been long, of course, but so far I am very happy. The discussions haven't been super-long, and they haven't had any specific agenda. Both of us simply have said whatever came to mind at the time. But it does so much. At least to me it feels actually easier to talk about sex at other times, too, when it is happening regularly. I don't feel as vulnerable about expressing my desires, since it is not only when there's a pressing need but more casually. Very good!
fuchka
05-27-2012, 02:35 AM
I found your commitment to talk about sex interesting, and glad to hear it's working out. Sugar and I have gone through patches of talking about sex a lot... But it often gets too much too much. Almost like shining a light on it makes it all the more awkward, all the more difficult to relax when we're in the mood to fuck. We've gotten too cerebral, and we need some solid non-sexual sensations to ease up.
It's a bit like me with sleep... When I've had trouble sleeping, the insomnia sometimes gets reinforced by my own excitement when I feel sleepy. E.g. I haven't slept well for days, now I'm finally drowsy, I can feel a good sleep coming on, yayayayay SLEEP!, oh fuck now I'm too awake to sleep anymore :p
I just came back from a holiday with friends. It was great, I really enjoyed it! :) One of the friends I traveled with is the one who introduced me to Bob years ago. She's one of my closest friends and she and Bob are also really good friends. She is just an amazing person! She is mono herself but I have a feeling she really truly understands me, and even more importantly, wants to understand. So she asks questions and really tries to get inside my head and I think it's awesome. The situation between me and Bob was a bit confusing for her in the beginning but she got over it very quickly. Now she teases me about him quite often, which is cool. If we can joke about it, I think it says that it's not awkward for her, it's not a taboo or anything. And we can talk about it seriously as well, so I think we're okay with the subject. During the holiday we had a great conversation about my feelings and how I see this situation which is inevitably temporary. At first she had some difficulties wrapping her mind around the concept of being involved with someone knowing that it's going to end soon. I told her it took me some processing too, but after processing I really feel like I want to enjoy life now and let my emotions flow freely and not worry about the future that I'm not going to have with Bob. At some point she said something that made me cry because at that moment I felt like she really understood me. It was something about two ships passing in the night and stopping for a moment (in our case a few months) to enjoy each other's company and then continuing their journey onwards, which can also be a beautiful thing and a nice memory to think about afterwards. Exactly!
I'm missing rory quite intensely at the moment because we haven't spoken in 5 days now. We have a skype date tomorrow which is great. I'm also going to see her in 10 days so that's not too bad anymore. I'm really looking forward to it! I really want to reconnect with her.
Me and JJ are going through a kind of a rough patch right now. Things are not perfect. Our problems have nothing to do with poly though. I'm just not sure if our lives are going to the same direction. We might want too different kinds of things from life to be able to fit them all in a live-in partnership. Trust is also still an issue for me and I'm not sure when it's coming back. I don't know, time will tell I guess.
I had a good looong skype conversation with rory today. It was really nice and I also felt more connected to her than I have felt for a while now because we haven't been able to talk as much as we would've needed. So today's call was really beneficial. And only 5 days until we get to see each other again! <3 It's been a tough 2 months being apart.
When talking to rory I realised some things about my own thought patterns that I hadn't really challenged before and I now realised that maybe I should. I keep saying that I don't want a relationship with Bob. That is still true but why do I keep repeating it, why do I want to convince everybody that that's the way it is? I think it's mainly me who needs convincing. I've said quite a few times that I don't want a third partner, way before any real possibilities even came to be. Somehow because I've said this many times during the time I've been with rory, I feel like I've made a promise or something. Which I actually haven't. In the very first message of this blog I wrote "All of us are open to the idea of more partners so we're not poly-fi. Although the husbands aren't looking for anyone and neither are me and rory, but it's not forbidden either. I think at the moment we're all happy with the current situation, but never say never."
Because I apparently subconsciously feel like I can't change my mind about the number of partners, I've made very little time to be with Bob. I've tried to not let it take too much away from my existing relationships or anything else in my life. If I took more time to be with him, it would be too much like a relationship and I've told so many times I don't want that, right? So you know how I make time to see Bob? I sleep less. :rolleyes: I'm not even kidding. When I see him, I go to his place late in the evening when JJ is already asleep and I still have to usually wake up early enough to do other things like work or have a skype call. So when I spend the night at his place, I sleep like 3-5 hours those nights. Well not always, but I don't really like this pattern. I mean I don't like the fact that I feel like I have to put him at the bottom of my priority list. And it's not like anybody has told me I have to do that! It's my own mind doing that. Well maybe Bob's mind a little, too. He once said that even though he is interested in seeing me, he wants me to contact him when I feel like seeing him, because I'm the one with the husband, girlfriend and a busy life so he doesn't want to ask me. He has one LDR so he has more free time than me. So he is also contributing to the feeling of me having to put everything else before him. But I think I need to reconsider this thought pattern. He is also my friend so why shouldn't I take the time to see him like I do to my other friends?
I'm feeling super emotional right now. I guess this is one of those times that polyamory is making life more complicated. I'm feeling sad, hopeless, worried, excited, content, loved, secure, obsessive, giddy and don't-know-what-I'm-doing. I feel like laughing and crying at the same time. I feel like I'm in totally different places in all my relationships, one is going up and down all the time, other is staying stable and the third one is going up, it's a damn rollercoaster! My head is a mess right now. All I know for sure is that I'm really happy to see rory soon, she is my rock.
fuchka for me and Alec I guess it doesn't become too focused on sex even with the regular chats, because both of us are a bit of the type to fall into everything that's going on in life that we sort of forget to think about sex. Sometimes there's then the urge to have sex, as a reminder, but the urge to talk about it doesn't happen that way unless there's something specific, and that's why the talking-date is working, I think.
--
Aw, apparently I rock! :p <3
I am so totally looking forward to us meeting also. Two months is just too damn long. These past few weeks in particular (with all other life getting in the way of skyping, too) it's been a pretty much continuous ache, which I don't appreciate at all and don't really usually experience. It's just a feeling of not being able to connect properly, but also feeling the disconnect more stronly because of it having been so long since we last met. Well, it's day after tomorrow, finally!!
It's actually been quite a long time since I've had the live-in-hinge duty. Well, it's also been a time since I've had the benefits, so can't complain. :D
Mya visited here, finally. It was really good to see her.
I do need to write about stuff, but it will be somewhat incoherent, sorry. All of us have much going on at the moment, and not all pleasant. Mya has written a bit about her stuff. In my end, Alec finally came to the decision that he cannot stay in the job he has. He has been so miserable, and I totally support him. Then again, our finances have been quite uncertain as it has been, so the consequences of him quitting cannot really be foreseen.
Basically, me and Mya had already had quite a few emotional conversations during her stay (important things to talk about but pretty heavy). Then I got the news from Alec, and I crossed into a slight panic about the future. Heavy talks follow with Alec. There was this one day in particular when I was needed for support by both of my partners, and by the afternoon I was feeling more exhausted than in a long time. I felt like I had no more to give. I needed some time for myself. I wanted to go to my own room and be alone, but there wasn't really space for that in our one bedroom apartment. So I made a plan to go for a walk after eating. That morphed into Alec taking a nap so that I would have that room for myself to read. I don't think it was much more than half an hour, but it helped me feel more grounded. After that Alec started gaming with a friend of his (which was good since he was able to talk with him for a bit). I went to hang out with Mya. I read a bit more, and then we talked but agreed to keep it light for the rest of the day, since I felt like I had no energy for more heavy talks. That was good.
So, not the happiest visit ever. I had looked forward to all the enjoyable connecting and hot sex and everything. Well, some of that happened, too, and was truly lovely. Yet, I felt somewhat disappointed about the fact that neither of us really had much energy for that. However, I do think that is how life is, and that is a part of being partners. And it's not like having heavy talks isn't connecting, too. It's probably due to having had such a long time since we last met, that I would have had more need for that, and it left me aching a bit. Oh well, maybe we'll both be in a better mental space next month when I go visit Mya and JJ.
One thing that I am happy about is the whole comfort I experienced with me and Mya and Alec. I'll try to explain that. There were a few days when none of us were feeling like we had a lot to give. We didn't hang out a lot in a group, and some meals were eaten in silence. Can't say any of us felt very happy. Yet, it wasn't awkward or uncomfortable. It was just how things were. I feel there is something that shows - I don't know - intimacy, comfort, family when people can hang out together without trying to seem happier than they are actually feeling.
In my end, Alec finally came to the decision that he cannot stay in the job he has. He has been so miserable, and I totally support him. Then again, our finances have been quite uncertain as it has been, so the consequences of him quitting cannot really be foreseen.
[...] I got the news from Alec, and I crossed into a slight panic about the future.
So know what you are going through there. It has been like this for us more than one time even though we never had to face the fact that Sward really didn't want to continue in his job. Things are better now, but there is nothing more draining than a job, you need to do every day after day after day without any sign of improvement, without the slightest bit of joy you are able to take in the thing you are doing.
Even though this will be a time of adjustment and maybe some hard times financially or in regard to a feeling of safety missing in your everyday life for now, you will be glad you took this step as soon as he found something to really be satisfied with job-wise. Hugs to you and Alec for facing this rough truth.
Heavy talks follow with Alec. There was this one day in particular when I was needed for support by both of my partners, and by the afternoon I was feeling more exhausted than in a long time. I felt like I had no more to give.
[...] I had looked forward to all the enjoyable connecting and hot sex and everything. Well, some of that happened, too, and was truly lovely. Yet, I felt somewhat disappointed about the fact that neither of us really had much energy for that. However, I do think that is how life is, and that is a part of being partners. And it's not like having heavy talks isn't connecting, too. It's probably due to having had such a long time since we last met, that I would have had more need for that, and it left me aching a bit.
I think that you are absolutely right, this is what being partners is about. I personally feel so taken care of, connected, protected and assured when times like that are over. Assured by the firm knowledge that those people will be in my life despite some hardship and trouble. That they are there to stay for good and that they are able to get something out of this in the 'not so great' times as well as be a pillar of support for me. That is what commitment is about for me.
One thing that I am happy about is the whole comfort I experienced with me and Mya and Alec. I'll try to explain that. There were a few days when none of us were feeling like we had a lot to give. We didn't hang out a lot in a group, and some meals were eaten in silence. Can't say any of us felt very happy. Yet, it wasn't awkward or uncomfortable. It was just how things were. I feel there is something that shows - I don't know - intimacy, comfort, family when people can hang out together without trying to seem happier than they are actually feeling.
Exactly. There is beauty in silence if you are with the right person. I always felt this to be true and a sign for me who really is comfortable just being by my side. I often have a hard time 'letting go' in regard to control. But don't have to be controlled next to the people who should know you best. It seems that all of you are doing pretty well. I hope things will easy up again and as soon as possible. Wishing you luck.
Like rory wrote, the visit was quite emotional. I felt sorry for rory for having to be there for the two of us and having her own things to deal with on top of that. It must be quite hard. But like rory, I'm also really happy about the comfort we have. Me and Alec can both show that we're not feeling good and I do like that we're able to do that around each other.
I'm moving to Dream City in about 2 months. I already brought one big suitcase full of stuff and left it at rory and Alec's place. I'll pick it up from there when I've settled in my new apartment. The move is causing me quite a bit of stress and anxiety. Am I really sure I want to do this? What if I hate it? What about the people I leave behind? This is a huge decision. I'm also hopefully changing from my freelance job to a basic office hours job which would give me more security but less flexibility. This is a change I'm looking forward to even though it has its downsides as well. I'm just tired of all the insecurity and stress that my current job has caused me so I'm hoping these things will get better if I get the job I've applied for (which I think I have good changes of getting) or some other job in Dream City.
One of the things me and rory discussed while I was there was moving. Now that Alec is about to leave his job, they might be moving away from their current city. One of the choices is Dream City which would obviously be perfect from my point of view. However, another choice is to leave Wonderland. The very country where I'm moving to. This possibility - even though nothing's been decided yet - has made me very sad. Then again, the possibility of rory in Dream City is making me excited like nothing else. So you can imagine the mixed feelings I'm having over a decision I have no control over. I know this decision is hard for rory and Alec, but it has such a big impact on me too, that this is quite an emotional time for all of us.
Back home I ran into Bob when I was out with friends. We ended up going to his place again and this time we had a great conversation. I asked about his thoughts on us and he said he's been thinking if there is a "purpose" in what we're doing. I asked if by purpose he means future and he said yes. I said that the reality is we're both moving away soon, but that I like what we have and I like him. I said I'm going to be sad when this has to end in a couple of months but I think that is not a reason to stop now. We both agreed that we should really try to enjoy what we have for the time being but not expect anything from the future. I feel like I laid all the cards on the table and he knows exactly where I stand regarding us. That feels good. He's also been incredibly sweet to me, telling me I'm special and that I deserve the best. He even kissed me and held my hand in public which was surprising because I thought he wanted to keep a low profile. Well, the hand holding happened outside the city center so I guess that was a bit safer but to be honest I'm a bit worried about the kisses. I don't know who saw us, but I just hope nobody who likes to spread rumours. :rolleyes: Then again, that is the least of my worries right now.
fuchka
06-17-2012, 01:45 PM
you can imagine the mixed feelings I'm having over a decision I have no control over.
Oh hun, I totally get this. *hugs*
Yeah, in response to both your posts (rory & Mya), it is indeed amazing when you're able to be sad around people you love. It's a very intimate level of comfort. Pity that stress and heavy conversations do sponge up time and energy, esp in LDR when these are so precious... But weary silence it is yet another kind of togetherness which feeds into the multi-dimensional experience of living & loving. It's good, it's real, and it's something to savour (kinda sorta) in its own right. Basically, what you both said :) I concur.
Luckily you'll be seeing each other comparatively soon! Take it easy x
Phy thank you for your thoughtful comment. I agree with you about what you write. Rationally, I do believe in it being alright in the end, but emotionally it fluctuates. Sometimes I can trust it completely, at others I can't stop the stress and worrying.
fuchka thank you!
----
I've had some things I felt like talking about to Mya, and I think finally yesterday the last of them got out. I am feeling closer to her as a result, even though I didn't know the stuff was getting in the way of feeling connected.
Some of it was just emotional things that I don't regard as having a very valid base, but I felt like they were slightly bugging me until I was able to express them. We were in such raw places when she was visiting that it could have been less constructive to try to talk about them then. But yesterday and the day before we skyped and it was better. It was good to hear, in a way, that we have the same struggles. Basically, on one hand we both value our own autonomy and freedom very much, yet, on the other, both of us have passing feelings of being not as important to the other one as the other things/people in her life.
I'll write a bit about what has been going on for me. I've felt a bit unimportant on a few occasions when I've felt like skyping and Mya has agreed that she feels like we would need some more time to connect, but then she had all these other commitments and we weren't able to talk for days. Yet, I definitely wouldn't have wanted her to cancel plans or anything like that, and since I do need respect for my own autonomy, I will not try to persuade my partner to spend their time with me instead of something else if the something else would have been their first choice. With this I am trying to express that while I had the urge of wanting to spend more time with Mya, what I choose to do is based on what I actually want on a more profound level (i.e. a relationship where both of us spend time with each other not out of a sense of obligation but because we want to). We talked about this, and it felt good just to hear her say that our time is important to her, too.
To the other side of the same issue. As Mya wrote, right now the issue of where and how I and Alec will live in the fall is up in the air. Mya is moving to the country where we live in now, but to a different city, Dream City. Due to the recent financial turns, it is uncertain that me and Alec will be able to stay where we are. If we have to leave here we might be able to move to Dream City, too (though it's looking really unlikely), but another possibility is that we are forced to return to Home Country.
Not surprisingly, Mya has a vested interest. Obviously, it would be awesome for us to be able to live in the same place, but then it would be the shittiest timing for moving away just when she is moving here. She was expressing all this to me, and don't get me wrong, I couldn't agree more. She also said that if I move to Home Country, it will feel like I'm choosing Alec over her (since he'd like to move there, though not for just a little while but eventually for good). Note, she didn't say that she would necessarily rationally think that it would be the case, and I can understand the feeling. However, I also felt a bit resentful about her reconstructing the situation as me choosing between them, when I am already upset about possibly not being able to afford living here as I want to. I felt resentful that because of her expectations from me, she couldn't really support me very well. Whereas she felt like her moving here is totally unimportant to me when I may move away at the same point.
It's just that right now my emotions are all over the place (and same seems to be true for my partners). Makes it difficult to untangle which aspects are valid and which are not in my own emotional existence. I hope Mya will add more about her point of view when she has the time.
I've been thinking about what rory wrote and I don't really have much to add. She described the situation and my feelings very accurately. I haven't been the best partner lately with my own emotions getting in the way of being able to be supportive. I would love to say "I'll support you whatever you decide" but my selfish side is saying it's going to be damn hard to support the decision that would make me so sad. But I guess I have no choice but to really try to take myself out of the equation and see things through rory's eyes. I know this isn't easy for her either.
I'm just so tired of being in a LDR. I've been counting months when I get to be in the same country with her. The disappointment of her moving away just when I thought the long distance thing was over would be huge. Also, the LDR has been possible in the first place because of my freelance job and ability to work from wherever. Now that I'm looking for a permanent position in Dream City it wouldn't be easy to see each other as often as before if we lived in different countries. But still, I think we could make it work somehow. I have faith in us, faith in our love that will carry us through all this.
I don't think I have ever been as stressed out as I am right now. Well, ever when adult. I fluctuate between feeling calm and feeling panicked. Tends to go towards the panic the later in the day it gets. I am so afraid of so many things. This has an effect on relationship life; the fear gets projected on relationships, too, and pretty much all negative emotions are blown out of proportion.
Mya and I sorted out the stuff that we both wrote a bit about. I had a truly lovely talk with her yesterday, we got to do some philosophising about stuff like abortion and euthanasia, which we totally enjoy doing but which has been drowned out lately by all the practical stuff that's been going out. Neither of us can totally block the fears about future, but yesterday I felt very strongly the present, where I am totally in this relationship and feel strongly about it.
In the morning I felt very good about my relationship with Alec, too, but then in the evening I was a wreck. I sometimes think that I really should never ever talk heavy relationship stuff late in the evening. I am tired and everything feels so massively important and urgent. I am not at my best. And neither is he, but that is because he is tired and can't really concentrate on trying to understand what I am trying to say, and then I feel like he doesn't care, because he doesn't see the urgency. Which is something I often also cannot see the next morning...
I nowadays have that voice of reason in my head in the evening, telling me that it is not the best time. How much I listen to it varies. Yesteday, partly, and that is why we didn't end up fighting, just both feeling sad and agreeing to discuss at a later time.
The trouble is just that when tired it all feels so justified and I just need for him to see it immediately. Maybe next time I listen to the voice of reason better, now that I've written here about it. Even if it is as urgent and important as it feels [which has never yet happened; it may be important but very few things if any are so important that they cannot wait to the next morning], I have 100% better chance of communicating it to him when I am not feeling enough to make me totally incoherent and when he is in a mental state to take it in.
Right now there is a problem. I trust Alec very much in very many things. However, financially we have together created a dynamic, which causes me to be somewhat distrustful. Basically, both of us have preferred for me to be in control of our finances. I, because I feel safe when I feel in control, and he because he'd rather not worry about that; and both of us because of feeling I'm better at it. Which may or may not be true but also neither of us can really know how good he would be if I always do it all.
Additionally, my own feeling of 'being better at it' comes partly from not very fair/nice places, such as feeling like my way of handling money is the most rational and if he made even slightly different choices he would be doing it wrong. I am actually not comfortable with this aspect, because underlying I have the belief that being his partner gives me no right (or ability, even) to control what he does or how. That is, I believe in healthy boundaries and in his right to make his own choices even if they are different than mine would be (or even if I think them dumb). However, it's not as simple as that when we share finances and have different priorities and views. He tends to live in the moment a lot, I tend to plan for the future. In the extreme both of those perspectives have flaws in them. It is rational to think about the future to some extent, but also it is not possible to guarantee financial security in all possible scenarios - planning for everything is not really having control but only an illusion of control. I realise that, and yet I cannot release that illusion; that as long as I have everything budgeted, I am safe.
To feel healthy, I should give it up and not meddle in the things that are his responsibility. But I am too afraid. I don't know what it is that I fear most. What if he does something differently than I would, and it ends up badly, will I blame him for not doing things my way? At least if I have the control, and things go badly, we are both in the mess together. There is something fundamentally skewed here, in this belief we both share that I know best.
Not easy information to write down, please handle with care. Would appreciate viewpoints, though.
Hm ok. I think I can understand what this is about, as I tend to react similarly. But one question nevertheless: Is this your problem or does it bother him as well? Meaning, does he feel controlled by your behaviour or is it just about the theoretical disadvantage of his position?
First of all, we (Sward and I formerly, Lin and I now as well) handle things like you and Alec do. I am in charge of the finances, I handle our bank accounts and do the maths when it comes to the amount of money everyone has to spend on shared finances. (Our income is quite unequal, that's why I need to calculate with percentages to regulate the amounts each has to contribute.) Both trust me with this, are too lazy or just not that interested in looking into things. And yes, I claimed that position in full knowledge that I wouldn't feel at ease with one of them looking after our finances. Sward is just like you describe Alec, he lives in the moment, doesn't plan for long periods of time in advance (financially, I can't complain in regard to other aspects) and usually overdraws his account if I don't look after his money. Lin is different, he knows how much he has each month, he isn't careless with his money, but he doesn't look out for shared goals and money that may be needed for ordinary things like a new dishwasher, washing machine or whatever. That's why I am in charge.
I understand your problem concerning the controlling aspect of this situation. I hate to feel like I force another intelligent human being as well. (Just discovered a similar aspect in our dynamic that made me uncomfortable, see last blog entry.) And here comes the BUT: HE agreed to this. Meaning, he himself sees an advantage in you taking care of your finances. For whatever reason there may be from his point of view. Maybe he is well aware of the positive points you yourself see in this kind of arrangement.
Leaves only your feeling of inappropriateness in this situation. I myself didn't find an answer to my problem with 'having the impression of forcing my partners into a certain situation they wouldn't be in without my meddling'. I think the main issue here is our strife for equality. And our inability to just accept that some situations need some imbalance to function. If you absolutely feel that you need him to be in charge, to satisfy your need for equal standing of both of you in regard to this matter, leave him be. Be prepared to face the consequences, that you may not be happy with his decisions but at the same time relieved of the pressure of being the person in charge.
I would suggest a different solution though. Have you ever discussed the possibility of splitting up your finances even further? Meaning: amount x for monthly expenses, amount y for each of you to spend as he/she pleases, amount z as a cushion like a nest egg for sudden expenses that aren't covered by your usual ones? We do it like that. We know the usual amount for each month in advance, each of us has his own money to spend and there is a safety net for harder times. As our monthly expenses are fixed, as well as the amount you put aside, each gets the rest of his monthly income to use as he pleases. No one ever complained about this system (in our case). It combines control and freedom and works great for us.
SNeacail
06-25-2012, 05:09 PM
When ALL the finances are put on my shoulders and my husband has NO input, I feel overwhelmed and over burdened. It's a lot less stressful when both of us can sit down together and discuss everything, even when I'm still the one doing the math, paying the bills and such. In fact it's quite irritating, frustrating and exhausting to be the only one who gives a shit about the finances, especially when the electricity bill doubles over the summer, the car breaks down, etc. Alec is probably happy to leave that burden for you, as long as you will bear it, but talk about it with him, maybe set once a month or even once a quarter for you guys to review and discuss the finances.
JaneQSmythe
06-29-2012, 01:52 AM
Rory, I think me and MrS function a lot like you and Alec. I take care of the finances because I am good at it and like to know that everything is being planned for/ taken care of. MrS is not bad with money but doesn't really enjoy dealing with the details the way that I do. We have it set up so a certain amount of money goes into "his" account every month - this is our luxury budget - he can save it, spend it on himself, or spend it on us going out (groceries come out of the household money, restaurants come from his). He does not have to account for how he spends to me. All of our financial "needs" are met by my portion of the budget - his budget is for "wants" and therefore he can't (in my mind) screw it up - it is "extra".
Generally when there is a major financial decision - major purchases, a shift in investing/savings plan etc. I will sit and do all of the research and lay out a number of plans that I think would work. I then sit down with him and go over everything and ask if he sees anything that I missed and make my arguments for each plan. We then decide together how to proceed. Periodically I like to sit down with him and review our financial goals and what we are doing to meet these goals (I'm sure these sessions bore him but I need to feel that he is on board, that we are on the same page.)
Occasionally I will get myself into a tizzy and worry that I am somehow being "financially abusive" by needing to be "in control" of the household finances. He reassures me that this system has worked fine for both of us for 16 years and he has no interest in taking a larger role in the general financial planning (although he does ask for a "raise" once in a while :p) - he thinks I am doing a fine job. As long as Alec is satisfied with the current set up and you two periodically touch base to reaffirm that, then I don't see a problem.
My (carefully hoarded and invested) two cents.
JaneQ
Thank you for the comments! Writing and getting feedback has felt extremely helpful. :) I feel much more clarity about what I am happy with, and what needs to change.
Phy I definitely agree with you about the aspect of our financial agreements being something all parties have agreed to. That is, I am not forcing anything on Alec, but he has also agreed to this organisation. He actually points this out any time I get the feeling of "maybe we should separate our finances so that you could do whatever you want with yours and I control mine only" (happens maybe once a year; usually having to do with him feeling like changing cars; something that in our situation is NEVER a good idea and to which I have agreed to way too many times). That is actually a key to the clearer feeling I now have, that the whole system is something that both of us have felt works and has benefited us both; and if some aspect is no longer working for either, it needs to change.
SNeacail that is a very good perspective! Right now there have been a lot more little things to take care of than there usually is (because of the potential moving), and I have been very stressed. Most of them are not really something that would be practical to delegate, but I notice it helps to just talk about the things that have needed doing. Just because I take most of the heavy lifting in shared financial things doesn't mean I can't get support from my partner in doing it.
JaneQSmythe I laughed at the carefully hoarded and invested two cents thing. :D Much appreciated. ;) I agree that as long as everybody is happy there is no problem. I have actually had a similar extra with Alec as you say. It works quite well, except that our income could be a bit higher so that the extra wasn't spent so easily... Then again who wouldn't want more money? :p It's just that bigger purchases are quite difficult to work into it so that it still remains useful, because it takes so many months to save up.
Basically, I've come to the conclusion that I have no trouble with the basic financial arrangements I have with Alec. If at some point we feel we need to change them (whether due to situation or what one of us wants), we'll look into it then, but at the moment it is mostly working fine.
There is just a specific aspect of incomes/employment. It has been generally the case that both of us have an income to contribute. There have been times for both of us when this has not been the case but ordinarily it has. We've had a bit different sources. Alec has been working, and I have been mainly studying. Thus, while I have often also worked, I have not often relied on working for supporting us (I've had student loans etc.). Also, while I have actually often earned almost the same as Alec during a year, it's been more varied; i.e. I would make less during term and more in the Summers etc.
However, I have very little student loan left, but have also two years before I graduate. I generally do not like working while studying (it tends to affect my studies adversely). We had hoped that by this time, Alec would have a steady income, and we'd have a bit more savings. Thus, we could go on without me having an income.
So we're now in a totally new situation, for both of us. Thus far, it has been the case that if there is a period of time when the other person is not contributing, we still manage with the other person's income and possibly savings.
From this comes a need for some new boundaries; to see our finances less as 'common' and more as 'both are responsible to contribute their share'. If, at some point, either of us has an income which can support both of us so that it is less crucial for the other one to work, that is fabulous. But in our current situation that is just not realistic, and having that view of 'common' was not working very well.
Basically, it is simply not realistic for me to earn enough for both of us while studying. That is, there is nothing I can do to make sure we can stay in Wonderland. It might be realistic for Alec to make enough (just barely), if he got a full-time job. So, basically I was trying to maximise the odds for that. Asking him questions to the effect of "what if you can't get a job you would most like, what would you least hate doing?".
Well, those conversations truly were not making either of us happy. The truth is, he doesn't want to take some job he doesn't like just so that we can be here. He doesn't want to leave to Home Country (not unless it is more permanently, and in this situation it would be for a year or few only). But he also wants a job that he likes (at least to some extent). Basically, he wants to drive. Which is fine, except that our experience in this city has been that he was looking for a driving job for about half a year and couldn't get one (pretty much all jobs were looking for experience from here, not other country). This is one of the biggest reasons we are looking into moving to Dream City; it is a bigger place and will hold more potential work opportunities. Still, there is no way to tell if he will be able to get a driving job there either, and the uncertainty makes me super frightened.
So, because of the fear, I would pester him. But he reacted defensively (not surprisingly), and I would feel like shit about fighting. And I started to feel more profoundly uneasy about the whole thing.
I am fundamentally against pressuring anybody to do anything they don't want to, and yet here I was.
So, some boundaries are needed. If he doesn't want to take a specific job, that is his business. It is his decision. He will need to face the consequences of that (e.g. him not being able to stay here, or live as he would wish). I have neither a right or an ability to control his choices. And, in addition to something problematic, there is also something ethically questionable in me relying on him for my ability to stay here.
I will need to get a job which pays enough for me to support myself while studying (unless alternative funding materialises). Failing that, it may well be the case that I have to move back to Home Country. If, then, Alec happens to get a great job on his terms and has enough money to pay for my living, too, he will probably be happy to do that and I will be lucky in that I can stay. But it is not something I can rely on. And also, if he can't support himself here and I can, I will may not be able to support him, or at least we will have to live somewhere I can afford (i.e. with roommates).
I feel better about this. There's still all the uncertainty about our future. But I don't have to fear for our relationship in addition to that. Because I do see a perspective without proper boundaries as harmful; and I absolutely do not want to put either of us into the position of relying on him for our future. I'll rather make the boundary and say, both of us for their own.
I actually started right away by telling him I will no longer mention his job seeking. He can talk to me about that, or ask for help, if/when he wishes, but if he doesn't it is his choice and I will stay out of it.
^ I think your decision sounds really good and healthy. :) I'm all for independence in relationships and to be honest it made me a little worried too when it seemed like whatever happens to Alec, the same will happen to you too. Obviously the same insecurity about the future is still there, but it comes from a different place; it's more in your own hands now. I mean, it is still possible that you don't get a job/funding and won't be able to stay in Wonderland, but at least you know you did everything you could in order to stay.
When it comes to me and JJ, we are planning on going to couples counseling. We have problems and we need to sort them out in order to stay together. The relationship isn't going to get any easier when I move out of the country soon and we'll be in a LDR for some time. And then him moving to Dream City.. It terrifies me. He would be moving for me and I'm not sure our relationship is strong enough at the moment to carry that sort of a burden.
I've been smiling a lot during these last few days because I got some good news from rory but I'll let her tell you the news herself. :)
Today I had an interesting conversation with Bob, it gave me much to think about. We talked about our feelings and whether we would consider each other possible partners if the situation was different. He said that he likes me and appreciates my personality but thinks that he probably wouldn't fall in love with me because I lack something that his previous loves and current one have in common: bitchyness. :D So I'm not bitchy enough for him! That's actually really nice to hear because that's something I really don't want to be and if that's what he's into, then I'm not what he's into. I tried to get him to clarify what he means with bitchyness but I didn't really get a clear picture what he meant, but I can't imagine it being something that I would be or like to be. I also told him that I'm not sure he would be emotional enough for me. We had just talked about that in a previous discussion when he said that he just doesn't feel that much in general. He has been and is now in love (with his gf), but he thinks that even the feeling of love isn't that big for him, it's just a feeling among others. I'm not sure he would deal well with my constant conversations and analysis about emotions. Still, after all that we concluded that... there is something special here and you never know. :rolleyes: Situations change all the time and maybe in another time and place there is a chance for us. But now we accept the situation as it is: we're going our separate ways in two months. Oh and he and his gf changed their minds about moving. He was supposed to move to his gf's country but instead they now decided that she is moving to him. They will be moving to a different city though, so he isn't staying in my home town. (rory: they're moving to where you used live too before moving to Wonderland)
fuchka
07-05-2012, 02:46 PM
Newwwwwws, wanna know it already :)
Oh, sorry! :) Haven't had the energy to write (full time volunteering) and don't have that much now, but I'll update the news.
It is looking very much like me and Alec will be moving to Dream City soon, after all!! I got into a very good university there, so I won't be too sad about leaving the one I'm in now. There's a bit of the finances to sort out still, but if nothing unexpected happens, we'll move. That means we'll be moving basically at the same time with Mya. :) I'm very excited but also quite scared.. On one hand, it is unbelievably cool when so many of the things that I want may be coming true, but, on the other, it is also really scary because there's still a lot of uncertainty about how we will be able to support ourselves staying in Wonderland.
But I do realise something. I am keeping myself from being too excited so that the possible disappointment wouldn't hurt as much. And that makes no sense. Firstly, it will hurt either way. Secondly, doing that I won't get to feel the excitement and joy, and I can't enjoy even the time that I do have if I stress about the what ifs.
So, yay!! :)
nycindie
07-07-2012, 05:49 PM
Woo-Hoo, togetherness!!
^Yep, it's cool!! :)
Me and Alec are flying to Home Country for a couple of weeks tomorrow. He'll spend most of the time with his family, who I'll visit, too, but I'll also meet many friends and go visit Mya and JJ. I probably won't be much on the Internet while there, but I'll see you all when I get back! :)
Yay, I get to see rory soon! :) Yay, she's most likely moving to Dream City! :) Happy happy happy!!
Today I got a real wave of appreciation toward rory when I realised how easy she is to understand. It's not that we just get each other instantly every time we talk about something but it's the fact that she's willing to explain herself very thoroughly so that I can almost always get on the same page with her eventually. She always answers my questions and I do ask quite a lot of them. Sometimes I get a bit frustrated with Bob because he's not like that at all. I would like to get to know him better in order to build a deep friendship that would last even though we're going to be in different countries soon. But he has built walls around him and it's not easy to get through them. He thinks that I sometimes ask too many personal questions and that I try to get too close to him when he doesn't know yet how much of himself he wants to reveal to me. He says he gets to know people by observing them. I think that leaves too much chance for misinterpretation and that's why I prefer asking direct questions and giving honest answers. So we're somewhat incompatible in our communication methods, it seems. Well, we'll see how all this unfolds in the near future.
I get to see rory today, woohoo! :) I'm really really happy about that. Today I'm going to introduce her to Bob and a friend of mine who is visiting my home town this weekend.
This last couple of months I've had the most active social life that I think I've ever had. It's been crazy. Right now I feel a bit emotionally drained. Most of my friendships are deep and loving, so it takes quite a lot of work to keep them that way, especially when there's quite a few of them. Some of these friendships include kissing and other types of closeness from time to time, but not sex (except with Bob). Right now I feel like I should stop making out with my friends, at least for a while. The consequence of kissing them is that they sometimes suggest or hint about sex. And I usually don't want to go there with them. There's been two cases like this recently. The reason to say no depends on the friend. One I'm not attracted to that way. The other one is hot but I've seen several friendships of hers break after they had sex and she developed romantic feelings for the other person, but to them it was just-for-fun-sex, so she couldn't handle it and go back to being just friends. I don't want that to happen to us, I want to keep her in my life as a friend. Sooo.. I feel like lately I've had way too many talks and thoughts about who wants what from me and what do I want from them. It's exhausting. First with Bob and now a couple of friends. I think I want some peace in my life and this not how to achieve it. :rolleyes:
I had the most amazing time with rory! <3 We had some great conversations, a lot of closeness and just.. perfect time together. I decided not to work on those three days she was here and I think it was the right decision. JJ gave us enough space to be alone, I really appreciated that. Her presence just makes me so happy and I love her and our relationship. I love the fact that we don't have NRE anymore, so that we can see each other's flaws and not be obsessed about each other, but instead we're building something real, solid and hopefully lasting. I've been waiting for a chance for this relationship to grow more and I feel it's been given that chance now that we're moving to the same city. I'm amazed how all this worked out eventually even though the situation looked quite bad for a while. Ok, we're not living there just yet, but it's not going to take long anymore, a bit over a month maybe. Gosh, this is really happening! :)
fuchka
07-21-2012, 01:31 AM
Hey, that's not long to go at all. Bet you're excited!
And taking time away from work is goooood. Glad you got to hang out. Nourishing :)
fuchka: Yeah, very excited! :) It was really good to take some time off and just be together. Very important.
I had a fight with Bob yesterday. :( I don't know why I even bother with him, this whole thing has been such a hassle. I guess there's enough good in him and our thing that I keep trying. But sometimes we're just so bad at communicating and we keep misinterpreting each other. We're planning to have a serious conversation tonight. I really hope we can get everything out in the open and figure out finally what we're all about. I thought we had already done that but I guess I was wrong since he still thinks some things about me that aren't true. This really shouldn't be this hard. :rolleyes: