The Downside of self Discovery

[MonoVCPHG]

I had a good talk with Redpepper today referencing things that go through my mind about our relationship. By all accounts we have an extremely loving relationship and a dynamic with such natural flow it almost seems too good to be true at times. Like any relationship it has compromise. Polyfidelity is the core of my health in our relationship. I look at her and her husband and because I love them as one entity I actually don’t feel like I am in a poly relationship. Their friend and tertiary is my friend as well. He is simply there.

Throughout this journey I have discovered more and more about myself. A lot of it was about communication and sexuality. I thought perhaps my self-discovery would lead to more openness for Redpepper with respect to the inclusion of other men in her life. I thought that perhaps I would re-evaluate what my poly friends consider to be insecurities about sharing her with future lovers. I thought perhaps I was insecure in not wanting her to share that part of herself with other men.

My self-discovery has taught me that I am in fact more monogamous than even I had thought. I have let go of the idea that asking for sexual fidelity is a sign of insecurity. For me it is a sign of commitment. I accept that my views are not in line with poly thinking and understand why. Seeing sexual fidelity as a sign of insecurity enables the principles of polyamory. Seeing sexual fidelity as a sign of commitment enables the principles of monogamy. I accept both for what they are and do not need to argue if one is better than the other or more evolved because neither is. They simply are what they need to be for individual people to live true to their nature and preferred approach to loving.

I have constantly debated the unfairness of my boundaries and repeatedly looked at the options. I do this with a huge error in my approach to this. I debated this issue within myself with the perception that I know what Redpepper wants. I see her wanting co-habitation with her husband and me; each with our own space. I also see her expecting me to evolve and accept other men into her life with time. Whether that becomes reality is yet to be seen but the point of error is that I am making assumptions.

I don’t want to be in a fluid open relationship where I give myself totally to one person and they are open to bring other men into their lives. I admit that I actually don’t want this. Although I have somehow naturally taken to what we have and happy within our boundaries, I do not want to a partner who I can expect to share with other men.

I would rather fore go the physical intimacy of our relationship to nurture the friendship, which is beyond any I have ever had. Physical intimacy is the pinnacle of intimate communication for me but is still not worth risking the soul connection I feel with her.

So now I feel almost like a walking ultimatum. We all know that if someone gives you an ultimatum the choice should not be in his or her favour. So here I am. My mere boundaries feel like an ultimatum to me. I am so black and white in how I approach my boundaries I again feel like this is unfair. I have no give, no bending. I don’t feel it in me to compromise my need for this boundary because it is a path to not being myself. I just found myself and refuse to let that go. I in turn see this inability to compromise as being an infringement on Redpepper’s ability to be herself. And so the cycle continues within me and again it is in error because it does not actually factor in her desires.

Redpepper’s friendship is first. Our physical expression and the intimate expression of the love we have come second to me. She, as a friend, is more important than us, as a couple.

What are the affects of this? I move towards the future but there is hesitancy. I worry that I will hurt her. I imagine us living together later and her doing what is in her nature and rightly so. I imagine her coming to me to open up my heart enough to accept a new man into her life. I feel myself reshaping my love for her in that moment. I am so black and white and imagine myself hurting her because I don’t want to hold her back but can’t accept this path. So I give her everything...except me. Now we are so close and integrated it is even more difficult to let go of that aspect of our connection.

Might I change in the future? Anything can happen. I used to want to change; to be something different and develop a different nature. I don’t want to change anymore. I want to find my place in this life and in hers as I am, who I am and with as much positive presence in her life as I can be.

The core of this has just dawned on me! My journey into self-discovery, growth, and awareness is not about enabling me to take a desired path. It is in fact to uncover what my path really is!
I always see Redpepper on that path sharing the journey with me and guiding me when I get turned around, pushing me when I get scared….WOOOHOOO!!

What’s a mono vanilla cracker to do…


Peace and Love
Mono

[JonnyAce]

This post was absolutely beautiful. I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate you opening up to us "strangers"

[MonoVCPHG]

Apparently that is what this is all about....and not all of us are that "strange" to each other :)

Thanks Johny

[JonnyAce]

....and not all of us are that "strange" to each other :)

Thanks Johny

fair enough, i hope to, one of these days, be less of a stranger to everyone here ;)

[rolypoly]

I agree. I think it's terrific that you are so willing to look at yourself.

Seeing sexual fidelity as a sign of insecurity enables the principles of polyamory. Seeing sexual fidelity as a sign of commitment enables the principles of monogamy.

This is interesting. I never thought of it that way. I understand exactly how this makes sense.

I imagine her coming to me to open up my heart...

I don't know if it's what you meant, but I'm picturing part of what you love so much about redpepper is her nature and ability to open you up. This is so beautiful.

[MonoVCPHG]

I don't know if it's what you meant, but I'm picturing part of what you love so much about redpepper is her nature and ability to open you up. This is so beautiful.

I was refering to her asking me to expand my love for her to embrace her love for another man. But you are right..she has opened me up to a depth of relationship that is unprecedented. I am blessed in her willingness to accept me :)

[redpepper]

I'm glad that you wrote this Mono :) I will find it interesting to see what others think as I have told you all I can about what I think and feel.

I am not interested in anyone else and look forward to a long, happy future with you. I have no idea how it will be in terms of arrangements but all I know is that I trust in fate and destiny. I have no control over them.

There is something big in store for us and that is what I rest easy on. I trust you entirely regardless of what life path you have been on. What else can I do? I'm in love with you and love you. I have to be as open as I am because there is nothing I can do about that and I never "do" love half ass. I'm all in. I'm giving you everything I've got because I believe in the future. I just happen to be able to give two men everything I have and a good friend what he needs also.... and my son and a bunch of other close friends too, in a friendly way. I love doing that and not only am I able to do that, I can do it no other way.

[MonoVCPHG]

I think you are getting through to me Lilo...for real...I might be getting it. The possibilities seem so...well possible. The dawn of a new era? Dare I get excited and let myself fall into it? I hope so because I know I am missing out in not taking that plunge..there is so much to you :)
I love you :D

[Ceoli]

I've been thinking about the word fidelity a lot recently. For myself (and again, I stress that this if for myself), fidelity is not synonymous with exclusive. I know that some people may consider this semantics, but I think there's something behind using a word that means faithfulness and loyalty and then saying that that word cannot apply to non-exclusive relationships. For me, it's a mono-centric view of the word. But thinking that way has made me have to unpack exactly what what fidelity is in a relationship if it does not mean exclusivity to me. This is what I've come up with so far, and it's still a work in progress.


With fidelity, I know that my partner loves me holds my needs to be important.
With fidelity, I know that my partner will consider my feelings before he or she acts.
With fidelity, I know that my partner is committed to a long term sustainable partnership with me.
With fidelity, I know that my partner will make choices that keep us and our partnership healthy.


These are just my own thoughts and feelings on the idea of fidelity.

[Rarechild]

Might I change in the future? Anything can happen. I used to want to change; to be something different and develop a different nature. I don’t want to change anymore. I want to find my place in this life and in hers as I am, who I am and with as much positive presence in her life as I can be.

The core of this has just dawned on me! My journey into self-discovery, growth, and awareness is not about enabling me to take a desired path. It is in fact to uncover what my path really is!
I always see Redpepper on that path sharing the journey with me and guiding me when I get turned around, pushing me when I get scared….WOOOHOOO!!


Don't you love it when that happens!! I frequently find little parts of the "answer" when expressing myself to others.

It is so true what you said about self-discovery - it's hard to separate internal and external motivations sometimes, but yes, I believe it's all there inside of us. Having a love like you and RP are blessed to have that is based on very strong and healthy self-love just makes it that much clearer. The way I see you two reflecting each other is beautiful.

I feel a little jealous-I mean full of compersion!

[AutumnalTone]

Seeing sexual fidelity as a sign of insecurity enables the principles of polyamory. Seeing sexual fidelity as a sign of commitment enables the principles of monogamy.

Huh???

You lost me with these two statements. Since when did viewing sexual fidelity as a sign of insecurity become necessary for poly? I don't view a desire for sexual fidelity as necessarily a sign of insecurity. For some folks it is, for others it isn't.

And then, somehow all polyfi folks are now mono? Aren't they supposed to be too insecure to be poly for desiring the fidelity?

Color me confused. :confused:

[MonoVCPHG]

Huh???

You lost me with these two statements. Since when did viewing sexual fidelity as a sign of insecurity become necessary for poly? I don't view a desire for sexual fidelity as necessarily a sign of insecurity. For some folks it is, for others it isn't.

And then, somehow all polyfi folks are now mono? Aren't they supposed to be too insecure to be poly for desiring the fidelity?

Color me confused. :confused:

Confusion is perfectly fine my friend. There is no need to understand each all other the time lol!

As usual I should have included the "IMO" before expressing my opinions or views.

Insecurities towarsds sex with other partners is a common theme in looking at opening up. It is regularly brought up in discussions as well as during the poly meetings I attend. I find myself defending what is preceived and vocalized as "my insecurities". This is a common theme in most writings around opening up relationships.

I don't know where you got the idea I was saying all poly folk were mono because I certainly know that is not the case LOL!

Sorry for confusing you. This has been a way of organizing my own thoughts and working through my amiguity towards what has been nagging at me.
Each of us has our own way of viewing things. There is only sharing in this post, not an attempt to convince, convert or otherwise influence others.

Take care

[MonoVCPHG]

These are just my own thoughts and feelings on the idea of fidelity.

I think this is great Ceoli! What more can someone ask out of sharing other than to organize thier own thoughts and perhaps promote thought by those around them. Perhaps a thread on fidelity in the future?!!

Thanks for sharing :)

[Ceoli]

Seeing sexual fidelity as a sign of insecurity enables the principles of polyamory. Seeing sexual fidelity as a sign of commitment enables the principles of monogamy.


As is my way, I always like to unpack and get to the bottom of things. Can you explain *what* principles of polyamory and *what* principles of monogamy you're seeing in this dichotomy?

[MonoVCPHG]

I feel a little jealous-I mean full of compersion!

HAHA! Just think...understanding compersion almost gives us another emotion that a lot of people never even recognize. We ge to be aware of it and enjoy it :)

[MonoVCPHG]

As is my way, I always like to unpack and get to the bottom of things. Can you explain *what* principles of polyamory and *what* principles of monogamy you're seeing in this dichotomy?

I honestly don't think I can explain them to any degree of satisfaction. But that is not my intent in this. All I can say is that the differing ideas of what insecurity and comittment are seem to be key components of how we look at the different aproaches to loving. Some are these are based on social or peer conditioning while others are purely a product of wiring.

Unpacking stuff is great although I don't travel down paths once I find peace in my own understanding. It's not about tying to avoid pushing thoughts and ideas. It's about eventually accepting the answers for yourself and then moving on to something else...otherwise I'd never get anything done!! :D

[MonoVCPHG]

As is my way, I always like to unpack and get to the bottom of things. Can you explain *what* principles of polyamory and *what* principles of monogamy you're seeing in this dichotomy?

This made me think of something else I believe. To constantly "question" is a good thing that leads to progress. To constantly question the same thing doesn't.

I'm not saying that this is what you do but wanted to thank you for helping me with my own thoughts in this, Ceoli :)

[Ceoli]

I honestly don't think I can explain them to any degree of satisfaction. But that is not my intent in this. All I can say is that the differing ideas of what insecurity and comittment are seem to be key components of how we look at the different aproaches to loving. Some are these are based on social or peer conditioning while others are purely a product of wiring.

I'm not sure how you can say that they are key components to how you're viewing things yet be unable to define exactly what they are. It would seem to me that this is a pretty important cognitive dissonance that could create much misunderstanding.

For me, when I see people saying that poly people have differing ideas around commitment, that usually means that those people are misunderstanding what it means to be poly. These people are tending to blend the idea of commitment with the idea of exclusivity when they are two very different things. The same goes for insecurity. Insecurity is insecurity, regardless of whether it's in a poly or mono context. The mechanisms that drive insecurity are the same, regardless of the label put on them.

I find that when there's lack of clarity around these ideas, misunderstandings and assumptions start to take over in ways that continue to create inaccurate perceptions and prejudices around poly identified people.

I'm taking this piece of the discussion to another thread.

[MonoVCPHG]

Yeah, I get where you are going I think. I should have put this in a blog area, not general discussions. It really didn't belong here. Sorry everyone, Redpepper agrees that If I post something on a forum that I should be open for discussion. My bad.

I'm done
Take care

[rosevett]

Thank you for sharing, I have a partner that I can just see, hear and feel these exact words/feelings coming from and it is PEACEFUL to know we are not alone in our journey.

[GroundedSpirit]

Hi Mono,

Thanks so much for sharing such intimacy with everyone.
Maybe we can share some of our journey & discoveries along these lines.
It would seem that the wonderful relationship you have is illustrating something very important. Love is often about putting someone else s needs above our own, understanding that those needs - at least at that point - are critical to them. Allowing them to trust their "gut" and standing beside them in support is a true expression of love.
The concept of self sacrifice will always be debated so we won't lengthen this by going down that path now.
The place of sexuality in a relationship is something we've spent many hours- even years analyzing. Here's what we've found as our own "personal truth".
In a strong loving relationship (ours anyway), sex is only a minor element in what really bonds us together. Our special relationship is built on all the intimate little life experiences we have shared together. Some joyful, some sad, some just comfortable & fuzzy. And yes - although some of them have been sexual in nature, that piece is really no different then a quiet walk we took along a meandering stream or a night we sat before a fire under a full moon. Those are our heart-bonding pieces.
It seems there is much confusion overall about human sexuality. It's a complicated thing but we often wonder if we're really not responsible for overcomplicating it. It seems to take too high a priority in the bigger scheme of things (to our thinking).
To us, a big part of the sexual piece is satisfying a natural physical need/craving. The setting & mood often determine what that is on a given occasion. Maybe relating it to a nice meal would give us a similar parallel ? We may be in a mood for a particular fare on a given day and someone else may prefer something else. We can all sit down however and share the experience of meeting our current need and the bonding occurs (or can) because of that share experience. We're happy that all involved have had a pleasurable experience.
Your "need" for a mono sexual relationship is not the exception :) And who's to say that it's not the best course for you - at least for now.
The point is - your love for Red - is no more or less real because of that need. Undoubtedly she understands your need, and although painful, because of that love will support you.
Isn't that what it's all about ?

[Ceoli]

Yeah, I get where you are going I think. I should have put this in a blog area, not general discussions. It really didn't belong here. Sorry everyone, Redpepper agrees that If I post something on a forum that I should be open for discussion. My bad.

I'm done
Take care

Sorry about that. I definitely would have read this very differently if it was in the life stories and blog section. :(

[MonoVCPHG]

Isn't that what it's all about ?

Yes it is..thanks for these thoughts. Take care.

[AutumnalTone]

Insecurities towarsds sex with other partners is a common theme in looking at opening up. It is regularly brought up in discussions as well as during the poly meetings I attend. I find myself defending what is preceived and vocalized as "my insecurities". This is a common theme in most writings around opening up relationships.


OK, got it. I'm fuzzy today and likely not making complete sense of the world, whether reading or writing.

I'm thinking a dose of caffeine and a walk in the snow (oops, stopped snowing and now is just rain) are on the schedule to help clear my head.

[MonoVCPHG]

OK, got it. I'm fuzzy today and likely not making complete sense of the world, whether reading or writing.

I'm thinking a dose of caffeine and a walk in the snow (oops, stopped snowing and now is just rain) are on the schedule to help clear my head.

Snow!? Lots of rain here but no snow. No worries my friend.

Take care and enjoy your caffeine :)

[rolypoly]

I have to be as open as I am because there is nothing I can do about that and I never "do" love half ass. I'm all in.

I relate to this so much!!

[LovingRadiance]

Mono-it may have been in the wrong section. But damn it was helpful! Thank you.

[MonoVCPHG]

Mono-it may have been in the wrong section. But damn it was helpful! Thank you.

:D Glad to hear it.

[ladyjools]

It is really obvious to me that you have a very strong poweful and deep love for red-pepper,

from reading what you wrote i understand that you are happy to be in a polyfi situation between yourself, redpepper and her husband, but that it hurts you to think of her with another man outside, and at the moment you have a polyfi set up,

however you are saying that if she does want to bring in a new love that is a man into her life that you would re-shape your love for her, and continue to nuture the friendship without the intimacy,

what i wonder is how easy will this be, to step back from being so intimate, to give up that wonderful thing you have with her, becuase i know that sex is not everything but sex is diffrent from making love, and that connection is extreemly special,
i worry that it would hurt you more to step back and give up the intamicy, and see another man gain that with her?

i hope that these questions are not too personnal

Jools

[MonoVCPHG]

what i wonder is how easy will this be, to step back from being so intimate, to give up that wonderful thing you have with her, becuase i know that sex is not everything but sex is diffrent from making love, and that connection is extreemly special,
i worry that it would hurt you more to step back and give up the intamicy, and see another man gain that with her?

i hope that these questions are not too personnal

Jools

Not at all Jools :D

The thing is, the intimacy would still be there for me. It is how I would get to communicate it to her that would change. Sex in itself is less important to me than ever because I understand my relationship to it.
I fully understand how deeply this would hurt her, but would accept that in order to be a part of her life outside of a romantic relationship. We would always be connected and we both know this.
It's not a case of all or nothing for me. It is a case of how much and in what context to be healthy.
Yes she might lose a lover, but she could keep a very close friend. Or she could chose to reject the new shape of our relationship and I would lose it all.
That would be the greatest of tragedies for me.

Of course, it would hurt me to see her have that with another man, but not as much as feeling I had betrayed all I worked to discover in myself. It would not hurt as much as knowing she was denying herself others as well. Her friendship is more important than her physical intimacy. Just as her relationship with her husband is more important to me than her relationship with me.

I have a very strong will now that I know myself. Lack of will and knowing myself cost the ones I loved in my old relationship immensely. That is a lesson I won't forget.

I am a black and white animal...I have a lot of weakness and a lot of strength. Being alone does not scare me. Hurting people does.

I have no doubt that she is strong enough to tell me if she is denying herself something or that things need to change. She is a amazingly strong person. I count on this.

[redpepper]

What would hurt me most would be that you would not be intimate with me if I were interested in another man also. That is what would hurt me. It would make me feel as I did in high school, which is a slut. Reshaping would not be a healthy option for me. Healthy would be to have you in my life as it is now. With all the love I can muster lavished on you to the best of my ability. If I am denied being able to do that I don't know what I would do.

Luckily I don't have to go there at the moment because if I did, my heart would break..... end of story. I'm choking up just thinking about it, so that is all I can say for now.

[LovingRadiance]

What would hurt me most would be that you would not be intimate with me if I were interested in another man also. That is what would hurt me. It would make me feel as I did in high school, which is a slut. Reshaping would not be a healthy option for me. Healthy would be to have you in my life as it is now. With all the love I can muster lavished on you to the best of my ability. If I am denied being able to do that I don't know what I would do.

Luckily I don't have to go there at the moment because if I did, my heart would break..... end of story. I'm choking up just thinking about it, so that is all I can say for now.

God I totally hear that one RP. Maca is struggling this week. I've been copy/pasting Mono's posts to him in emails and they do seem to be helping, but it's been rough. He's just really dealing with a bunch of his own personal issues-but of course they impact and are impacted by our situation too. :( He couldn't figure out today why I said I was feeling heartbroken. I just stared. I didn't even know what to say. I'm feeling heartbroken because I love him so much and watching this is painful. I can't help worrying that I may be too much for him-and if he left, as you said, my heart would break. I'd be crushed and as you said-I'd feel like the girl I was labeled in highschool-a slut, unworthy of the man/men I love.

[MonoVCPHG]

Woah...no need for anyone to get choked up! Hello....I'm right here. In fact I'm on my way to pick you up right now...I love you XOXOOXOXOX

[redpepper]

I feel for you LR, I really do. I understand that feeling all too well. I sometimes wish I could just shut myself off and be mono for fucks sakes! Some days it's just all a bit too much for me and causes me so much pain to see Mono in pain trying to understand. I honestly wish I could throw up my hands and say fuck it, I lied, I'm mono and I want to be with you and you only. That thought breaks my heart also as it isn't true and I can't rationalize having a husband and child at the same time.... I feel my anxiety rise when I think of this and start going over in my head the possible future. I don't like it. Not one bit.:(

Yes my friend, I can certainly relate.

Stand strong and true to yourself. I know you are, but know that someone else understands.

[ourquad]

Mono, I have a bit of a different thought on this than I think has been offered as of yet.

Trust Redpepper.

You are the way you are (that is true for each of us). Redpepper knows who you are. Yet, she is with you. Consider why that may be. To me, it simply means she is willing to accept the way you are. That she doesn't feel limited or held back. (At least at this time.) She doesn't have a need to be with anyone else.

Bottom line is she isn't asking you to change. Why should you think you need to ask that of yourself? :confused:

[rolypoly]

LR and redpepper: It's so refreshing to read what I could be writing myself. I was definitely not labelled a slut in high school, but in my 20s, it was said of me, "I give it six months. You'll be with someone else." and "I thought you were in love with _____".

I can't help worrying that I may be too much for him
This is a big one for me.

[LovingRadiance]

Woah...no need for anyone to get choked up! Hello....I'm right here. In fact I'm on my way to pick you up right now...I love you XOXOOXOXOX

REALLY?????

no need for ANYONE to get choked up? :p

You aren't your way to pick ME up! ;)

Just teasing.

I think I'm softly in love with both of you!

By softly I mean-that the pieces of each of you that you have shared with us here-I am in love with all of those. I know that you aren't either one a one or two dimensional person, and there is so much to each of you that we don't see, know, feel. But the parts we do see-I love!!!

[LifesRogue]

this is a beautiful thread.
it gives so much insight and hope into what is the human mind.
i envy and respect what you have established within your relationship.

the comments that follow the original thought/post are beautiful as well.
it really helps me to understand my two wonderful men and RedPepper, you put into words feelings that i've been trying to for some time.
i love so fully, 110% all of the time and love loving. i love that i am able to love my two guys with full heart. each of them is loved fully in a distinct and individual way, no two the same.

my bf understands how lucky we both are, and has mentioned to me time and again that he recognizes how lucky he is that i have allowed him into our lives so that he can feel that love and respect from a person he respects as an equal.

RedPepper explains for all of us what it is to truly love, as love knows no limits or bounds. at core, it is fidelity, just as LovingRadience described, and respect for another human amidst the undying care and love that we have for someone on a very universally individual level, if that makes sense.
Mono has expressed for us something that I think many of us have probably looked at or fought with along our journeys. The way that you have laid your emotions out and the conclusions you have come to have given insight into our own minds and at least for me, allowed me to understand that the ppl in our lives, well, they too are on a journey and will find themselves and be stronger for it, if their love is strong enough to begin with.

absolutely beautiful all. ty for sharing this.

[redpepper]

Thanks for saying that lifesrogue.

[LovingRadiance]

I feel for you LR, I really do. I understand that feeling all too well. I sometimes wish I could just shut myself off and be mono for fucks sakes! Some days it's just all a bit too much for me and causes me so much pain to see Mono in pain trying to understand. I honestly wish I could throw up my hands and say fuck it, I lied, I'm mono and I want to be with you and you only. That thought breaks my heart also as it isn't true and I can't rationalize having a husband and child at the same time.... I feel my anxiety rise when I think of this and start going over in my head the possible future. I don't like it. Not one bit.:(

Yes my friend, I can certainly relate.

Stand strong and true to yourself. I know you are, but know that someone else understands.

Thanks RP. I needed that. This weekend has helped SO much in the "drama" that was last week (when I posted above). Just getting out of here and beingwith someone else for a night totally enlightened Maca to so much of himself-parts of himself he didn't even know were there I think.
It's been intriguing to watch and to talk about.

I have to stay true to myself, but believe me you-if I hadn't found people who understand, I would be SO lost. I know-because I was. That's why I went searching!

[LovingRadiance]

Mono, I have a bit of a different thought on this than I think has been offered as of yet.

Trust Redpepper.

You are the way you are (that is true for each of us). Redpepper knows who you are. Yet, she is with you. Consider why that may be. To me, it simply means she is willing to accept the way you are. That she doesn't feel limited or held back. (At least at this time.) She doesn't have a need to be with anyone else.

Bottom line is she isn't asking you to change. Why should you think you need to ask that of yourself? :confused:

Wow-can we say that to Maca too?????????????

[MonoVCPHG]

This morning I woke up next to Redpepper with a total loss of connection. I had been holding back some thoughts (it happens) regarding boundaries and how they might affect the future. The details are unimportant for now.

Because I was not being completely open I found myself incapable of letting my energy touch hers and lost connection. It was as if my portion of the entity that pulls us together was asleep or gone. This left me feeling empty and only thinking of our differences and not the shared love and source of our connection which overcomes everything to be together.

Normally when I lay next to her I will stroke her hair or snuggle. I couldn't this morning. Because I did not feel connected I felt as though I was not worthy to touch her. She was sleeping oblivious to this as I just lay there. Eventually she woke up and I admitted that I was not connected. She pulled the reason out of me eventually and as soon as I shared my concern with her, the connection was re-established and amplified. It was like opening a box in my chest and letting my energy out stronger and more powerful.

For quite a while I have known that connection is extremely important for my ability to share physical touch but I think today was the first day that I felt unworthy to touch her because of it. I essentially associate that connection with love. "Love" for me allows the potential for physical touch. Not a right to touch but an opportunity to touch if that touch is desired. Because in that moment I didn't feel love for her I couldn't allow myself to touch her. I was not honoring her.

Interesting and maybe completely weird but I thought I would share this.

[LovingRadiance]

Mono-very deep. Thanks for sharing.
I know Maca and I have been experiencing moments like that. NOW when one of us is "holding something in" even if that one doesn't REALIZE IT, we FEEL it.
It's nice in a way-like an internal warning device or something... .

[GroundedSpirit]

This morning I woke up next to Redpepper with a total loss of connection. I had been holding back some thoughts (it happens) regarding boundaries and how they might affect the future.

Hey Mon, :)

Yea - a conscience is a terrible thing to have isn't it !
Seen this a lot, and experienced it. Sometimes just the "stuff" going on in our head can lead to feelings of guilt. Even when we're just 'processing' it and don't know what - or if - it means (anything), we have this feeling that we're withholding something. But when you're that close to someone you feel it - and THEY feel it. The downside of that connection & closeness. You all become pretty transparent :)
The way we deal with this is (hopefully) with respect but expectation. We're accustomed to approaching each other with a "what's going on ?" approach. They key for us though, is that we don't expect an immediate answer at that moment unless it feels 'right'. A response like "I'm just working through some stuff" is perfectly acceptable. No pressure. Sometimes after it's processed it's a non-issue and get's discarded. And you 'feel' when that happens - everyone does. Only when the disconnect seems to linger for some time do we allow ourselves to push a little bit to at least get a general idea of what's processing. The understanding & need of that is because lacking information - the imagination can run wild. Don't want THAT either - which is something we all realize can happen. So....
You guys are still relatively new to each other so you'll work out your own best communication methods. :) But it's an evolving process.

GS

[MonoVCPHG]

A response like "I'm just working through some stuff" is perfectly acceptable.
GS

We use this too. I have to work on saying this sooner sometimes though. I like to work myself up into an apocalyptic frenzy first though :)

I've identified the ability to take one small peice of information and skip way into the future to see the bitter end of how it all plays out LOL! The sad thing is...I think I am right!

[MonoVCPHG]

It's nice in a way-like an internal warning device or something... .

You should check out the song "Warning" by Incubus. I post it on my facebook a lot and remind Redpepper to listen to it as a check in. The lyrics are oddly chilling but relevant....and here they are!

Bat your eyes girl.
Be otherworldly.
Count your blessings.
Seduce a stranger.
What's so wrong with being happy?
Kudos to those who see through sickness...yeah

Over and over and over and over...........

She woke in the morning.
She knew that her life had passed her by
She called out a warning.
Don't ever let life pass you by.

I suggest we
Learn to love ourselves,
Before its made illegal
When will we learn, When will we change
Just in time to see it all come down

Those left standing will make millions
Writing books on ways it should have been

She woke in the morning.
She knew that her life had passed her by
She called out a warning.
Don't ever let life pass you by.

Floating in this cosmic Jacuzzi
We are like frogs oblivious
Soon the water starting to boil,
Now I flinched and we all float face down

She woke in the morning.
She knew that her life had passed her by
She called out a warning.
Don't ever let life pass you by.
Pass you by.

[MonoVCPHG]

She pulled the reason out of me eventually and as soon as I shared my concern with her, the connection was re-established and amplified. It was like opening a box in my chest and letting my energy out stronger and more powerful.

.

After reading this, Redpepper asked me why I didn't talk about how I opened up.
I thought about the importance of this. At first I considered the idea of her "pulling it out" of me as sufficient. That is unfair to the process if I simplify it that much.

First let's look at why I was hesitant to open up. A lot of what inhibits my connection is similar in nature. Usually it deals with my thinking I will inevitably make her chose between following certain paths and having me in her life as I am now. Because my concerns seem so repetitive they generate a sense of embarrassment within me. So I sometimes try to ignore them in hopes that they just pass. They don't.

Eventually it comes down to opening my mouth and just starting. Once the first words come out then I am in it. The cap is off and I just let it out.
Redpepper gives me lots of time to process and doesn't require that I talk in the moment but honestly the time I spend unconnected feeds into a sense that I have ruined our visit so it is better to be uncomfortable in communication than disconnected for any amount of time with her.

[GroundedSpirit]

Usually it deals with my thinking I will inevitably make her chose between following certain paths and having me in her life as I am now.

Mon,
What you saying here ? That you're struggling with 'sharing' her ? And that her sensing this may affect everyone's relationship ?

?????

[MonoVCPHG]

Mon,
What you saying here ? That you're struggling with 'sharing' her ? And that her sensing this may affect everyone's relationship ?

?????

Simply that our boundaries do affect the paths we chose. Same as everyone else.

[LovingRadiance]

I'll go find the song. :)
Always adding to my collection.

I think we all have some of those repetitive worries. I feel silly sometimes too for the same type of reason.
But I agree with you-it's better if I just suffer through the discomfort of talking and have the connection versus suffering through not having the connection.

Struggling with that right now with GG. :(
Fighting between knowing that he as to step up and be the one to start the important topics sometimes (a forever procrastinator AND conflict avoider). But at the same time, I just want my connection back. :(
Day 4 today and I feel sick, literally. ARGHHHH.

[GreenGecko]

Mono, I have a bit of a different thought on this than I think has been offered as of yet.

Trust Redpepper.

You are the way you are (that is true for each of us). Redpepper knows who you are. Yet, she is with you. Consider why that may be. To me, it simply means she is willing to accept the way you are. That she doesn't feel limited or held back. (At least at this time.) She doesn't have a need to be with anyone else.

Bottom line is she isn't asking you to change. Why should you think you need to ask that of yourself? :confused:

Thank you Ourquad for this revelation.

This quote really hits home to me today. I've been struggling with being open and honest with myself which in turn keeps me hidden from LR. I have been discovering, or RE-discovering insecurities not yet dealt with, one of them being timid to take that next step even if I know that it's alright to do so.

Today LR forced me to realize that I didn't trust her with my heart in a particular situation, even when I thought I did. In fact, the thought that I WOULDN'T trust her never even crossed my mind.

Of course she would think of what I could handle or not handle if the situation included me, or pertained to me. I should have known that and trusted her judgement. If it was more that SHE knew I could handle, she would have asked me about it prior, or not even concidered including me to begin with.

I love her so!

Mono: you and I are so similar!

[MonoVCPHG]

Mono: you and I are so similar!



I'm honoured you feel that way :)

Hope you are doing great, healthy and happy!

Peace and Love
Mono

[GreenGecko]

Redpepper gives me lots of time to process and doesn't require that I talk in the moment but honestly the time I spend unconnected feeds into a sense that I have ruined our visit so it is better to be uncomfortable in communication than disconnected for any amount of time with her.

This is the biggest heartache. That I've essencially "wasted" whatever time LR/I had to be together. The biggest heart BREAK however is that I didn't trust our friendship enough to just open up to her.

The disconnect is what hurts her most, and then I feel like a complete heel for allowing that to happen. Without connection, there is no point.

Opening up may be a struggle, but keeping that connection is utterly important in maintaining a relationship. It's the loving/ careing, respectful thing to do. You can't dilude yourself into thinking that avoidance will help in any way. That will ensure a really long, crappy day, or longer.

(And, when I say "you" here, I don't necessarily mean YOU MONO, just the praverbial(sp?) you.)

[GreenGecko]

I'm honoured you feel that way :)

Hope you are doing great, healthy and happy!

Peace and Love
Mono

Working on it :), thanks! You as well. Wish I were able to spend as much time here as LR. I'm really enjoying the posts I get to read, most of them are from you incidently. :)

Maybe LR will have better things to say about her day tomorrow now that I've finally decided to remove my head from my ass. :o

[MonoVCPHG]

Working on it :),

Maybe LR will have better things to say about her day tomorrow now that I've finally decided to remove my head from my ass. :o

You and I see similar views too it seems :o My bald head is a pefect fit for my ass it apears....if only I could change just a little.

Good night, my friend :)

[GreenGecko]

You and I see similar views too it seems :o My bald head is a pefect fit for my ass it apears....if only I could change just a little.

Good night, my friend :)

With any luck, and our own will power, we'll more than change, we'll grow, and strengthen our ability to truly love. Without condition and without effort! :)

[MonoVCPHG]

With any luck, and our own will power, we'll more than change, we'll grow, and strengthen our ability to truly love. Without condition and without effort! :)

I don't think I want to change the way I love..there's nothing wrong with it. I just wish it was more in line with the way RP loves.

[redpepper]

We don't love differently, I just am willing and able to give my love more freely and to more people.

[River]

.... Eventually she woke up and I admitted that I was not connected. She pulled the reason out of me eventually and as soon as I shared my concern with her, the connection was re-established and amplified. It was like opening a box in my chest and letting my energy out stronger and more powerful.


How lovely that the two of you can and do this dance of re-establishing conscious "connection" (as you call it)!

I've found that whenever I can't feel love (mine, ours, this... whatever) and then I reconnect with this energy/feeling/awareness that the contrast makes me realize-experience this energy/feeling/awareness in a fresh new light, often more expanded and clear. And when this is a shared experience, mutually realized-experienced, it is quite lovely indeed. It's always a healing and growing experience, is it not?

[MonoVCPHG]

It's always a healing and growing experience, is it not?

Yes it is my Friend :)

[MonoVCPHG]

I was going to write about how I have been feeling lately but then realized I already tackled the same feelings. Like a cold these thoughts affect me more in the morning and night; they keep me up late and wake me up early. Sorry for the self quoting folks. Don't worry RP, just a process I need to get on with so I can get over it and feel I should share that with our friends :)


I have constantly debated the unfairness of my boundaries and repeatedly looked at the options. I do this with a huge error in my approach to this. I debated this issue within myself with the perception that I know what Redpepper wants. I see her wanting co-habitation with her husband and me; each with our own space. I also see her expecting me to evolve and accept other men into her life with time. Whether that becomes reality is yet to be seen but the point of error is that I am making assumptions.

I don’t want to be in a fluid open relationship where I give myself totally to one person and they are open to bring other men into their lives. I admit that I actually don’t want this. Although I have somehow naturally taken to what we have and happy within our boundaries, I do not want to a partner who I can expect to share with other men.

I would rather fore go the physical intimacy of our relationship to nurture the friendship, which is beyond any I have ever had. Physical intimacy is the pinnacle of intimate communication for me but is still not worth risking the soul connection I feel with her.

So now I feel almost like a walking ultimatum. We all know that if someone gives you an ultimatum the choice should not be in his or her favour. So here I am. My mere boundaries feel like an ultimatum to me. I am so black and white in how I approach my boundaries I again feel like this is unfair. I have no give, no bending. I don’t feel it in me to compromise my need for this boundary because it is a path to not being myself. I just found myself and refuse to let that go. I in turn see this inability to compromise as being an infringement on Redpepper’s ability to be herself. And so the cycle continues within me and again it is in error because it does not actually factor in her desires.

Redpepper’s friendship is first. Our physical expression and the intimate expression of the love we have come second to me. She, as a friend, is more important than us, as a couple.

[redpepper]

I'm feeling grounded and closer to RP than ever. We had a great talk a couple of nights ago. We aknowledged some things about our relationship regarding the compromises we make to be together. We spoke of them clearly and accept the fact that we don't know what the future holds for us sometimes. I worry about her health in being with me and I worry about my health in feeling like I suppress her. We talked about the pasture I see her in. Yes it's a great pasture with lots of wonderful things and it is a pretty big pasture when you compare it to some different approaches to love. It does however have a fence and one that she can see over. There are wonderful things out there as well; experiences and people available to explore. All the things in her pasture are caring and committed and some much more willing and able to see her wander outside for a while or invite someone or something else in. I am in her pasture as well but have a subconscious eye on the edges. I'm not so willing and able to see her wander and explore..this saddens me and I sometimes feel drained because I feel as though my constant vigil wears on me. That is where my health becomes a concern. I sometimes feel as though I have my shoulder against the fence, reinforcing it with my weight. I see her retreating in sadness, glossy eyes of the mare who has been fenced in.

She knows that I consider our relationship and our family a success. She also knows that I won't really consider ourselves a "poly" success unless I can open myself up to her having other men enter her life in an intimate way. I told her I don't see a path to that...not one that actually makes me internally happy and healthy or brings me closer to her as an intimate partner.
Once again we find this unique arrangement of her marriage, my experiences and the overwhelming love we have overcoming struggle to bring us closer.

Perhaps one day she will find something that makes it worth going down an alternate path, perhaps one day I will change. Until such time we will keep loving each other, growing and supporting each other. Regardless we will always be family. She is not just the most passionate person I have met but she is the most trusted and accepting friend I have ever had. Even when we struggle we turn to each other for support...isn't that what best friends do?

There is happiness in this post through sharing and awareness..and that's why it belongs here
thought a re-post might be helpful

[MonoVCPHG]

thought a re-post might be helpful

Thanks Bbay:)

[MonoVCPHG]

I am sure things look pretty easy from the outside for me. I have had very little struggle in adapting to loving a woman who has a husband, a girlfriend and a tertiary although currently in a state of withdraw for now. Admittedly, I have found my relationship with her husband to develop almost without major incident and now feel little trepidation around all of our extended families. And yes, we have a compromise around no new men. And yes that makes no sense to anyone who asks why her husband or the introduction of Derby as her girlfriend has been so readily accepted and cherished.

So my life must be pretty easy, I get everything I want right? Wrong, so very very wrong. I have the constant and unrelenting weight of the compromise we have resting on my mind and shoulders. It comes in cycles, sometimes weak and barely noticed and other times like a rising tide that threatens to swallow my very health.

What don't I have? A girlfriend who is free to be who she really wants to be and who is not free to share her heart the way she wants to. I am the one who looks into her confused and sad eyes knowing that my protection of what we have is causing her to ache. I am trapped. I am pinned between my desire to remain in her life as her lover and my desire to see her live the way nature intended her to. I expect no one to understand that connection and happiness cannot be faked for me. I can't turn off the reshaping of my affection or the subconcious and yet physically painful withdrawl of my intimate energy I feel when that boundary is encroached apon. Our friendship means too much to me to let it be drowned by silent contempt under a veil of smiles and reassurances that everything is ok. That would be deceitful and unfair to her heart. I want her to always feel the genuine love I have for her in it's true form.

While I am confident in who I am and what I have to offer, I still feel the guilt and embarrassment of not being able to overcome this compromise. But then I am not willing to compromise my health or threaten the connection I have with Redpepper in order to achieve that. If we go down that road, we will do so with open eyes and acceptance of whatever happens is meant to be and no one is at fault.

So we move forward...but rest assured I am always aware of both the negative and positive impact I have on Redpepper's heart.

[bella123456]

Love can be hard. It can be so hard that it hurts...a lot !

best wishes during the hard times...

[MonoVCPHG]

best wishes during the hard times...

Thank you my friend...but they are mostly good times just so you know. It's a balance that is more than often tilted to wondrous happiness :)

[bella123456]

Yes, of course :)

hard times will be there though...for any relationship. In many ways...it's the hard times that are really valuable - they get a bad rap really...

I've certainly found that hard times in my life and/or in a relationship are the times when I have learned the most lessons...

[LovingRadiance]

Hugs,
I understand completely.
I understand perfectly how the energy shared needs to be controlled to healthy avenues AND how it can be healthy with PN and D, but not a new man.

Is that weird?
Maybe I'm an accidental poly?
Naw, But, I have spent a lifetime with loving monos-who've tried damn hard to understand and have always accepted me. I know there are limits to their health.

GG is so mono-like you. Ever since I first started getting to know you I've seen the emotional resemblances. He's ok with Maca, but a new man would throw things so out of kilter for him. I've been tempted before, but the truth is-it's not worth it. It's been a long time; because I love him and I just can't see that the value would be worth losing what we have worked so hard to build.

I promised him several years ago-there will never be another man. Never.

It's quite frustrating being around poly-groups becuase inevitably when people hear that I'm poly-the men flock. It does not make me feel wanted/loved/sexy/beautiful etc. It makes me feel sleazy. My being poly doesn't mean I'm available. No matter how often I say so, they don't seem to get it. I try very hard not to say that the reason I'm not available has anything to do with the GG or Maca. Because that only makes a bigger mess-even if it is somewhat true.
The deeper truth is that deep inside of me I decided that having these two men is what's best for me; and I want what's best for me. Having another man, which would mean losing some depth or another with at least one of theswe men; is not what is best for me. EVEN IF I PERIODICALLY CRAVE that "rocky road icecream"- it's never going to be good enough to warrant the "heavy workout" I'd need afterward to make up for it.

:)

Hugs Mon

[redpepper]

Hugs,
I understand completely.
I understand perfectly how the energy shared needs to be controlled to healthy avenues AND how it can be healthy with PN and D, but not a new man.

Is that weird?
Maybe I'm an accidental poly?
Naw, But, I have spent a lifetime with loving monos-who've tried damn hard to understand and have always accepted me. I know there are limits to their health.

GG is so mono-like you. Ever since I first started getting to know you I've seen the emotional resemblances. He's ok with Maca, but a new man would throw things so out of kilter for him. I've been tempted before, but the truth is-it's not worth it. It's been a long time; because I love him and I just can't see that the value would be worth losing what we have worked so hard to build.

I promised him several years ago-there will never be another man. Never.

It's quite frustrating being around poly-groups becuase inevitably when people hear that I'm poly-the men flock. It does not make me feel wanted/loved/sexy/beautiful etc. It makes me feel sleazy. My being poly doesn't mean I'm available. No matter how often I say so, they don't seem to get it. I try very hard not to say that the reason I'm not available has anything to do with the GG or Maca. Because that only makes a bigger mess-even if it is somewhat true.
The deeper truth is that deep inside of me I decided that having these two men is what's best for me; and I want what's best for me. Having another man, which would mean losing some depth or another with at least one of theswe men; is not what is best for me. EVEN IF I PERIODICALLY CRAVE that "rocky road icecream"- it's never going to be good enough to warrant the "heavy workout" I'd need afterward to make up for it.

:)

Hugs Mon
I'm so glad you get where I am at LR. I agree with you, its not worth it. Still, its a kick in the pants when love springs out of friendship and it won't have a chance to bloom naturally.

There are many poly men, many men, that I just can't see what the attraction is about for others. That being said, I enjoy the attention of men and miss it frankly. I used to be able to enjoy that freely. I watch the others around me being courted and starting things with others and I am not part of that energy. It inevitably keeps me separated. If I am not available for sex, then I am not worth it to them.

Men like Leo stand out of the crowd. I met him before Mono and we have been friends ever since. He is different. He stood by me as a friend even though he was attracted to me. He gives me the space to be me and loves me regardless. That is REALLY rare! Really! Come on now, seriously, how often does that happen. Almost never. Usually people move on eventually and find someone else. It shows his commitment to me and my family. That is huge to me.

I'm really asking to be free to let things go where they may. But that would be a double standard cause where it would go would eventually be sexual in some way. I don't want to have Mono EVER look at me in discust and disappointment. He says he will still be my friend and family, but because I know how he feels about our sex I doubt he will be.

[MonoVCPHG]

I understand

Thank you for that LR. It really is appreciated :)

[SNeacail]

I watch the others around me being courted and starting things with others and I am not part of that energy. It inevitably keeps me separated. If I am not available for sex, then I am not worth it to them.

That is incredibly sad. If all they are after is sex, then they are absolutely NOT worth your time and energy.

[redpepper]

That is incredibly sad. If all they are after is sex, then they are absolutely NOT worth your time and energy.
I think its more like they don't see the value in having a relationship they aren't going to have sex in.

Poly people don't really do friendship with other polys in the same way as monos I've noticed. They don't seem to have time to have friends that are poly, only partners. Just an observation.

I would welcome a non sexual partner to be close with,
but if there is no time for friends then I doubt there is time for non sexual partners. Know what I mean?

Maybe its because they all think I'm poly fi? As a result of my dynamic? They don't understand something? Maybe they just don't like me? There is that possibility too.

[MonoVCPHG]

He says he will still be my friend and family, but because I know how he feels about our sex I doubt he will be.

Don't forget how hard I work at maintaining my friendship and family connection with some others Lilo. That should at least give an indication that you can trust in my words. For three years I have fought to keep that connection and what caused the initial seperation between us was a lot more damaging than the idea of you being free to explore others; I hurt thier best friends....you would just be living with a free heart and body with the blessing of a lifelong soul mate.....Me :D

[MonoVCPHG]

Maybe they just don't like me? There is that possibility too.

They all love you Bbay :) You're just too tempting...Meeeowww!!

[redpepper]

There actually seems to be two things going on for me that I don't understand about mono. One is about NRE and the other is about the kind of sex. I have to talk to him first before posting. Just thought of that though.

[MonoVCPHG]

There actually seems to be two things going on for me that I don't understand about mono. One is about NRE and the other is about the kind of sex. I have to talk to him first before posting. Just thought of that though.

Sounds like an old school "complete visit" tonight hunh Lilo...Wonder if it will end the same ;)

[Distracted]

Mono-
Just wanted to extend my appreciation for your original post. I've been trying to come to grips with my own feelings concerning my current relationship and the emotional struggle that has come with transitioning from a monogamous life to a poly one, but you pretty much nailed it on the head for me. It would seem that we are very much alike. Thank you. :)

[MonoVCPHG]

You're welcome my friend :)