New w/new feelings...HELP.

[windmarkbob]

My wife has always been interested in a group marriage arrangement, always telling me that loving more than one person was not just do-able, but easy and understandable. Yeah, great from an intellectual standpoint, but from a practical one, sure, I'll concede it's possible, but not for me, I'm too jealous, possessive, and didn't know how she could love someone in addition to me unless I had failed or she felt like she was missing something I couldn't give, regardless of my approval of the concept on an intellectual level (thank you R.A.H. - Grok?).

Next comes the sledgehammer to my forehead. I fell in love with a close friend of mine just by going out and shooting pool and talking over the course of several months. I've really been in an extremely close, yet non-romantic relationship with her and her husband for a couple of years, but now things are somewhat strained, especially since his wife and I both admitted that we are in love with each other.

Her husband is a lot like my wife in seeing a compound marriage as a "good" thing and an ideal that would be nice, but he's accepting our new relationship, and my wife's accepting it as well, and so far so good on this road to one big happy family unit with 4 strong personalities and 2 major alphas, her husband and me. Biggest problem now...we've started calling them "pricklies". The things that are shared, the sweet nothings, the more intimate moments, and not just the bedroom ones (which haven't happened yet), that can cause pangs of jealousy, possible misunderstandings because of an inability to communicate as well as maybe we should be able to. Especially since we all are and all have been happily married for a long time (them for 10 years, and me and my wife for 22 years).

How do you deal with the "pricklies" and how do you deal with the inevitable power struggles that will sooner or later end in an impasse???

Thanks,

Bob

[LovingRadiance]

Check out the communication

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255

It has some great suggestions for that.

Personally-I think the biggest key is SLOW DOWN.

As our communication counselor says (ALL THE TIME)
CONNECT then correct.

1.You have to LISTEN actively-
2.Repeat back (in your own words) as a summary to be sure you understood.
3. Explain why YOU DO accept and understand it and how you think it might make them FEEL.
4. THEN you get to say one thing-they listen and do the above three steps.

(laid this out in detail in hte communication thread)

It sounds obnoxious at first-and it takes TIME to do it.
It's not a "FAST" process.
BUT it does work-and it works well.

[windmarkbob]

Thank you! By the way, this is so new to me I'm feeling real weird. The new feelings are intense, almost "high-schoolish" in the intensity since we both verbalized that we loved each other, even though we both agree that "maybe" things would have been easier if kept at a distance and treated as the equivalent of the romanticized middle ages "courtly love", like the ideal Lancelot n Guenivere. I'm afraid, very afraid of it all blowing up in mine and my new lover's face...her husband "says" he's okay with everything, but I get a sense that he really isn't, or he's a hair away from just saying, "I was wrong, and this will not continue". I almost want to just walk away now, even though it would kill me, break my heart, to do so, on my own now rather than her hear from her husband that, "it's all got to end, and end now" for his own peace of mind. Nothing so harsh as "It's beyond my control" from Dangerous Liasons, but an end nonetheless...Is the fear normal? Is the though of ending something like this ever "good", or is it just me rationalizing and getting defensive because I'm subconsciously okay with ending it rather than be told by someone else that it's over? I'm so confused by all this...I'm 43 years old and I'm acting like a teenie-bopper who's never been dumped or been through all this before...I'm posting this even though I feel like a moron for doing so...I'm so confuzzled.

Thanks,

Bob

[Fidelia]

If your new love's husband is saying he's okay with the situation, but you're getting the feeling he's not, more communication is called for. Talk with him. Encourage her to talk with him. The four of you get together if that's appropriate. But talk it out. With love, respect and compassion for everyone concerned. Find out what he's feeling, what he needs in order to truly be okay, and together make a plan to be sure his needs are met.

One challenge that is unique to polyamory is handling NRE (New Relationship Energy) while maintaining a more mature relationship. It sometimes happens that the two new lovers are so caught up in all the delicious feelings of new love that they neglect their established relationships. This is completely understandable, but it can be devastating to the the neglected partner.

Take steps to make sure this is not the case for y'all. As her "old relationship" he may be having a hard time seeing his wife overcome with NRE with you. He may feel left out, or envious, or feel that his needs are now less important in his wife's eyes than the needs of the new relationship. (Of course I can't say what he's know what he's feeling, and neither can you at this point; that's why more communication is needed.) If any of these is the case, you need to make a plan with your new love to make sure his needs are met.

[GroundedSpirit]

Hi Bob,

Oh yeaaaa, the early lessons - right :)
Consider this.......
One of the biggest challenges in learning to love is to learn to release.
Buddhism or Taoism have some good foundational concepts here in relation to "non-attachment". This has NOTHING to do with religion - not into religion here at all.
Jealousy (really fear) seems to be an inherent part of being human and it's probably one of the first challenges that if overcome will change our lives forever.
Maybe it can start as recognizing that despite whatever relationship exists between people - everyone still is an individual person and as such is entitled to little slices of their own life to have & hold. This shouldn't be looked on as a threat.
When two (or more) people REALLY love each other, there is a concern there for their happiness and fulfillment and being able to share in that is the bond that brings us together. Share them when possible - and celebrate !

The "little intimacies" you mention as the "pricklies" are really nothing more than the moment to moment of flow of life's interactions. We all have these moments all the time, with people, the world around us in general. They go in to making us who we are.
They are not something to be feared. They (usually) deserve a smile :)

In any relationship there's always the potential for fear - the fear of loss - whether it's the loss of the total relationship or loss of pieces we feel are important parts. Being disconnected - out of the loop. Natural but.......
We have to trust - and communicate. If those we love (and who love us) realize our feelings about things like this, they'll be much more likely to try to share those things with us.
Stuff like this is why polyamory is really a challenge. It requires rethinking and reprogramming of a whole lot of the stuff we were brought up with, or adopted because of the society we've lived in all this time.
We think the end product is well worth the effort :)

Lovingly,

C & K

[Fidelia]

We interrupt this discussion for an unscheduled Accountability test:

Hi Bob,

Oh yeaaaa, the early lessons - right :)
Consider this.......

GroundedSpirit, you are in no position to advise anyone on relationships based in love and respect. You have still not rectified your offenses to Ceoli and the larger poly community from the “Sexual element” thread. http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1174

Own what is yours. Be accountable for your actions. If you still think you were correct and justified in your offenses, say so. Or else admit your errors and apologize. Hiding from a problem never solves it.

Returning now to our regularly scheduled discussion . . .

[NeonKaos]

Now Now. We must keep this thread from becoming "counter-productive".

But thanks for the reality-check, Fidelia!

[windmarkbob]

Well, we all got together to define some terms and discuss how they all apply to each other involved at this point. Thank you Wikipedia for the entry on love where the concept is broken down into manageable bite-sized pieces. We've determined that there's a LOT of "storge" to go around with everyone, a little less "eros" than "storge", and "agape" is currently shared in both directions by the primary couples involved (spouse to spouse only...so far).

We're all much happier now and have a better understanding of the differences, which we all "believe" will help control the "pricklies" that are sure to still crop up.

Thanks to everyone here who posted a response!

Later (Friday's gonna be a fun and interesting experience for all of us) ;-)

[windmarkbob]

Something I just realized...being new to this and everything. I'm wondering what I've gone and done. I've just given a second person the ability to rip my heart out...what the hell was I thinking? How do you willingly put yourself into a position that gives that kind of power to multiple people?

[RavenSophi]

Something I just realized...being new to this and everything. I'm wondering what I've gone and done. I've just given a second person the ability to rip my heart out...what the hell was I thinking? How do you willingly put yourself into a position that gives that kind of power to multiple people?

Scary isn't it? But then, you're also giving a second person the chance to love you unconditionaly, wholeheartedly, fully and with as much passion as you can handle.
I would rather take the chance with the hopes of experiencing that, than sit and worry about my heart and lose out. :)

[windmarkbob]

Disaster

[Rarechild]

Sorry to hear it 'bob. You have people here willing to listen if you want to say more, maybe help you find a silver lining.

[windmarkbob]

Sheesh, where to start. He took his pleasure with my lovely wife, then said he felt like he cheated on his wife, and stopped everything from going any further...to make light of the situation, I was the only one who didn't get laid.

On a more serious note...he has basically said it's unacceptable that she feel romantic love toward anyone but him.
I'm out, and it's hurting both of us.

[MonoVCPHG]

:mad::mad:I can't even tell you how much bullshit this is!! I definitely wouldn't have anything thing to do with this guy ever again.... (maybe one last "conversation") He used your wife for sex...I hope your she is doing ok.

Sorry to hear about this ..... this guy is a fucking asshole , he doesn't own his wife. If she wants to have contact with you he'll just have to deal with it or drag his double standard ass back to his momma's house. His fucking your wife doesn't mean she should have to suffer the loss of a friend.

Take care
Mono
:mad:

[AutumnalTone]

Sheesh, where to start. He took his pleasure with my lovely wife, then said he felt like he cheated on his wife, and stopped everything from going any further...to make light of the situation, I was the only one who didn't get laid.

On a more serious note...he has basically said no more contact between me and his wife and it's unacceptable that she feel romantic love toward anyone but him...so much for our Friday night bullshit sessions throwing darts...that is ending.

I'm out, and it's hurting both of us.

Oh, bloody hell! If I could afford a trip to WI right now, I'd come visit and kick the dude's ass for you. That sort of behavior warrants a thorough ass-kicking.

[windmarkbob]

Okay...he is feeling like crap for what happened. He wants us all to remain friends, he *says* he's okay with his wife and I still throwing darts on friday nights (she told him that was non-negotiable), and he's falling all over himself apologizing now. He's saying some really weird stuff though. Stuff like, "he's damaged something innocent and pure within his own marriage". His wife's in a tough situation, and regardless of the bullshit he pulled, he's still human and he's dealing with something that's so far out of his comfort zone that he's struggling to figure out who he really is, since his intellect isn't matching his emotions. I don't think he's playing "head games" as much as I think, in this situation he's a "head case".

Having been there in the past with my own wife (I never did what he did) in regards to jealousy, and feeling a monstrous fear of loss, I do empathize with him to some degree. My wife is fine, she's hurt to the quick, and she will be going over to their place tonight to open up both barrels and flay his soul by letting him know exactly how he hurt her and what she thinks about what he did. I'm glad I'm not in his shoes. His wife will probably just go sit at a coffee shop for an hour or so so they can have their chat and my wife can get some closure by calling a spade a spade, so to speak. This needs to be between them, and them alone at this point.

I'll be there for her when she's done with him and I'll be there for his wife if she ever needs a friend, an ear or a shoulder. But I really do want to maintain the friendship and the love of his wife...we'll respect his wishes and experience "courtly love"...I so frigging hate that term and what it really is. Whoever romanticized the ideal of courtly love was a moron considering how much it royally SUX to be living it.

Thanks for letting me vent here...glad I found this forum, since there really isn't anyone I know who I really can vent to like this. Oh, I could with my wife, or my girlfriend or her husband, but it just woudn't be the same and I'd be too busy watching for signs I'd said something hurtful inadvertently, and have to stop and rephrase...this is better. I really want to put up a wall, look at my girlfriend and say, "It's beyond my control", but I can't hurt her or me like that. Yes, I've seen Dangerous Liaisons one too many times.

Take care.

[redpepper]

Someone told me once that men make friends with women in the hopes to fuck them, women fuck men in order to deepen their friendships with men. I have noticed this to be true several time in my life and have almost relied on it when sleeping with someone for the first time. I always remain slightly aloof as a result until I know for sure they are actually seriously interested in more with me than sex. There have been times when I have purposely slept with guys I am not really interested in in terms of romance but just to get past the whole sex thing to get on with being friends.

Right now I enjoy that the men in my poly community don't have access to me in that way. I am deriving some pleasure from it. I am finding poly men want to be my friend first! Imagine that! I still wonder if we got that sex thing out of the way if they would want to be still. I will not know that I guess.

Anyway, my point is that I am surprised that anyone would be surprised that his reaction was as such. He thought he could do it without recourse and that it would fun and maybe he loved her. No problem, he isn't poly. Why make him feel like shit for it. He's mono. End of story. He feels bad but will stick to his wife thank you very much. One never knows how these things will turn out until they are done.

I don't think your wife should take it personally. Its really nothing to do with her. Lesson learned, put out and see where it goes. If it increases a connection then go with it if its working, if not then let it go as just see it as an experiament, an interesting and a good time. I know that sounds horrible but it worked for me. Saved me a lot of heart ache.

[Rarechild]

If it was me, I'd be mighty pissed. I'd try to step off for at least a week, most probably more. Just you watch what a week does to turn the lesson around as all parties get a minute to work their shit out.

Sorry, man. Your wife needs you as a friend right now. Focus on helping her, I'd say.

(Disclaimer-IMO all)

good luck-your support of her can heal you both if you let it.

[Rarechild]

I see what the others are saying about your dart partner, but she's going to have to concentrate on the issues this raises for her right now. I didn't mean to indicate that she was unimportant by omitting her, but I stand by creating space here.

You seem to be doing a fine job being clear-headed.

Again, good luck.

[windmarkbob]

Well, the more time we spend dealing with this, the more convinced I am that to some degree I'm a catalyst that has brought to light some long-term issues in their marriage. So, I'm minimizing the active drama in my life and putting the ball in both of their courts, cutting and running for now and ...at least to a more comfortable spot for me...into my wife's arms where I spend every night, and will spend every night til one of us croaks...damn, I married well!

[MonoVCPHG]

So, I'm minimizing the active drama in my life and putting the ball in both of their courts, cutting and running for now and ...at least to a more comfortable spot for me...into my wife's arms where I spend every night, and will spend every night til one of us croaks...damn, I married well!


I like to refer to this as "flipping the switch". Good for you in distancing yourself from this drama.

[redpepper]

Mono and I talked about your situation last night. We disagreed on several things but here goes with my opinion any ways. :)

The man said he felt as if he were cheating right? I would suggest that he guessed when it came to understanding your point about it all in terms of it being about love, not fucking each others wives. It probably seemed like a great idea at the time as he didn't think he would react. He probably thought it would be fine to give his wife to you and would be fine to take your wife in return. He missed your point and, not only that, he got all excited about the sexual act, had sex with your wife and then realized what he would lose which is his wife. He got emotional, which was your point. It was about emotions for you. It turned out that he actually cared about that enough to say stop!

I agree, he's an asshole, but give the poor man some credit, he saw where he went wrong and is working on it. They both are.

How many times have we said on here that poly relationships challenge EVERYTHING! They really do and I really hope that at some point your anger subsides and you are able to empathize with them. For yourselves more than anything.

Perhaps you can use this time to better educate yourselves on poly and all it entails before proceeding with another crush/love interest.

Too bad you didn't get laid. I gotta say, that really bugged!!

[windmarkbob]

Redpepper, I agree with everything you said in your first paragraph 100%. While I would probably like to think he's an asshole, I really can't...I like the guy and I've told him before, I understand jealousy, been there done that and likely to be there again to some degree. And I am NOT angry with him, just a little frustrated at the whole situation right now. The only thing I'm pretty sure about when it comes to this whole new poly thing to me, is that I ain't sleeping with someone I don't like, that I don't respect, that I don't have chemistry with, and that I can't trust to open myself up to. Other than that, oh anyone will do in a pinch. My wife agrees with me, but her standards are a little lower in that she's okay with the ocassional romp for fun with a well known friendly acquaintance and drinking partner. Of course most of her life she's been a saint, and I've got a reputation as a weasel. Odd how we change through life. Thanks for the input, regardless of how condescending it may have sounded with the, "Perhaps you can use this time to better educate yourselves on poly and all it entails before proceeding with another crush/love interest.". I know you didn't mean it condescendingly even though that's how it struck me the first time I glanced at it.

Later!

WeaselBob

[redpepper]

I'm sorry if it sounded so. I suppose one could read it that way, but it wasn't my intent.

It sounds like your wife has the chance to work through it quickly if she saw it as a romp in the hay as he did. At least she wasn't in love with him.

I'm sorry, you must feel hurt that your love for this woman can not be realized right now. I hear that you love her. Its just that I saw that as lessoned in terms of what you said about not getting laid. It kind of degraded that for me.

[windmarkbob]

Thank you for the clarification. :) Yeah, I can see how it would make it seem like I had cheapened the whole thing with that flippant remark. Being flippant and sarcastic are a couple of defense mechanisms I've honed to razor sharp lethality and I use them when I shouldn't sometimes. And yeah, for all practical purposes, it worked out fine for my wife, and in some ways she was the one least hurt by this little fiasco. She wasn't nearly as emotionally invested as the rest of us were. She's doing fine, I'm feeling a thousand percent better since I made the call to back out entirely until the other couple gets their stuff worked out.
Again, thanks for the posts, and Redpepper, thanks for the clarification! ;)
WeaselBob

[redpepper]

Yes that's kind of what I was saying about taking the time to learn more now. Now that you are free from their drama. :)

Good luck