IdRider47's Journey

[idrider47]

This is the chronicle of my journey from being decidedly mono to a poly lifestyle.

First a little about me: I’m fairly new to this site. I’m 47, straight, in a long-term (over 20 years now) monogamous marriage with RunBabyRun (RBR from here forward) on this forum. We’ve just decided in the last couple months to open our marriage and begin exploring additional relationships. RBR and I both come from very religious backgrounds, growing up in churches, and both having staunch Christian families. It’s very safe to say that neither of our families will understand poly ways of thinking, and for some period of time, this will be kept to ourselves. I expect that things will come out at some point, but we won’t do anything to hasten that drama into our lives.

In thinking through all this, we found that there are many possibilities. For now, we’ve decided that for us, an open marriage is currently the freedom for each of us to have other relationships outside the marriage, but not attempt to bring anyone else into the marriage at this time.

We’ve both been reading a lot on this forum, learning, exploring. We’ve read where some have a very elaborate set of rules and restrictions that work for them in their poly lives. RBR and I have decided that the best path for us at this time is to have the least number of “rules” necessary. After all, I think this path (for us anyway) is about freedom, and shackling each other with a big list of rules seems counter to that goal.

The minimum set of rules that we felt were necessary are:

1. Total honestly between us, always, about everything.
a. Any questions asked by either of us are answered honestly, always.
2. Safe sex, always.
3. Nothing brought into our house (we have teenagers around that don’t know about this at this time. We expect to tell one of them fairly soon, the other could be years before we have that discussion.)


Other than the above, both RBR and I are free to develop any relationship that we desire.

This all came about when RBR and I took a road trip and had a really good, long talk (as we often do on road trips!) It’s amazing how much our relationship has grown in the last couple of months as we’ve decided to do this. I can honestly say that the communication between us has never been better.

And with the help of many on this forum, we’ve been reshaping our minds into poly thinking. Many of the thoughts expressed to our previous posts have been truly transformative. It’s not always easy to understand, and sometimes even more difficult to overcome 40 years of mono-training, but it is happening and things are changing for the better.

RBR began this journey with a man already in mind for her first relationship outside of the marriage. She has successfully contacted that individual and began her journey. I can honestly say that I’m happy for her, and as expected, the challenges had already begun.

When we started all this, I figured that her having physical relations with another man would be my biggest challenge. I was divorced before RBR and I began our relationship. That marriage ended when my ex had a boyfriend on the side (a friend of mine from work) that I didn’t know about until she got pregnant by him. I was devastated and it took a long time to recover from all that. RBR has been a big part of that recovery. In the time, I felt like I needed to follow my Christian upbringing and attempt to reconcile the marriage, and that was what I did. However when I found out that they were sleeping together, that was too much for me to reconcile. Things are very different now. I figured that would be a challenge, but having given my approval of this lifestyle, I thought things would be very different.

As things are progressing in the relationship between RBR and her new friend (I’ll call him E here), I’m finding a couple of things jumping up as the first real challenges. They have been out on a couple of outings together, and I was really fine with it. He has kissed her passionately, and that wasn’t too much of a problem so far. The first real problem for me has been the emotional relationship. Having her depend on someone else, feel those thoughts for someone else, if there is a “threat” to our relationship, I think it lies in the emotional relationship, not the physical relationship.

RBR tries to tell me how different things are from what we first thought, but I think it’s not something I’m really going to be able to internalize until I find someone and begin my own journey.

The second issue is something that I just got a handle on today to where I can actually type about it. Our relationship was in a really good place before we started this journey. And I can say that it has honestly gotten much better since we started this. The awakening we’ve had being totally honest with each other has been really good for us. We have progressed to telling each other things that I NEVER thought would ever be discussed. And to make things even better, we’ve worked through things that I thought could be relationship ending if they were ever known. But that newfound honesty has created the next problem for me. I feel like we are totally open, 100% and there is nothing we can’t talk about. BUT, now that she has this new relationship with E, it’s created a barrier between us. I can ask her anything and she is pledged to answer truthfully. But, the thing is, I’m not part of that relationship. It should have privacy of it’s own that doesn’t involve me. This “area where I can’t (or shouldn’t) go” has created an enormous curiosity in me. I want to know how things are progressing, how is she feeling about things, what did she say, what did he say, etc. It’s hard to be excluded from parts of her life, especially now that we’ve found all this new openness.

We’ve discussed the situation and both agree that our relationships outside the marriage deserve their own privacy, at least I agree with that in principle. Putting that principle into action is an entirely different thing for me at this moment. It’s absolutely NOT a trust issue. I’ve just become very used to being able to be partners with her in every part of life, so having areas where I’m not involved (and shouldn’t be now) is hard.

I don’t know how to better describe how I’m feeling, however she is progressing with the exciting part at this moment and I feel like I’m mostly working through the negative feeling stuff. I am definitely wanting to get to the stage where I’m progressing through some of the more positive aspects of poly relationships!

[idrider47]

7-6-11
Really struggling today.
RBR is frustrated by being on this "vacation" away from E, communication is difficult because of the poor Internet and phone connectivity situation, that or the stress of the situation causes her to pull back away from me, which is exactly what I don't need as I'm trying to come to terms with the changes in our relationship.

It's like the timing was the worst possible. Things were progressing for her, now it's all on hold for two weeks while we have this "vacation".

I told her this morning that I'm miserable and would fly home today if it were an option.

I don't think there is anything we can do at this point to make this situation better, it's just going to take time to get beyond it...

[ray]

Welcome to the board! It sounds like you've got a lot going on. Give yourself time to adjust. It's ok if it doesn't all line up and work out perfectly right now. It is going to be a challenging transition but you can do it. And it seems like you're making good progress. I, too, come from a staunch christian background so I am familiar with some of that territory. Finding the balance of involvement in outside relationships is a tricky and unique process. Different preferences, needs, situations, etc... You'll find what works best for you and since you two seem to communication a lot, that will facilitate the process.

[idrider47]

Thanks for the support Ray.
We're traveling home today and tomorrow so I think that it will help for us to be back in a more comfortable environment.

Things are better today, not feeling as stressed and RBR and I have had some really good talks over the last couple of days.

[Carma]

What we've found is that poly is definitely an emotional roller coaster. Just remembering that makes it a little easier. The lows are REALLY low, but the highs are great. And many times we get to the freak-out point of "stop the ride, I want to get off!" But that's why we opened our marriage in the first place -- neither of us wanted to quit the marriage. We wanted that ride to continue.

We opened our marriage back in October 2010 and it has definitely gotten more manageable. The lows aren't quite as scary as they were at first.

My emotional relationship with Butch (my bf) is what shakes Sundance up too -- more so than the physical. (In fact, the physical was pretty erotic for him at the beginning. He used to help me pick out my outfits for my trysts and would get off on the details afterwards. Which was hott!) I guess it has worked out well that Butch is very respectful of our marriage and does not want to hijack it in any way. It may be a bit selfish of him, to focus on the sex with me and steer clear of the everyday emotional life-challenging things with me, but I realize again that it is a form of deep respect to leave the emotional support to my husband. Also to keep his own issues to himself, so I don't feel the urge to fulfill any rescuer fantasies I have! That's not to say we aren't friends and we enjoy talking about our lives, but I don't run to him with my emotions. We try to keep it light and fun as much as we can. Most of our sex is had with grins on our faces and the feeling like being kids in a candy store. Lovely, actually, to have no strings attached.

But all this reserve and restraint has been a work in progress, and the NRE was pretty intense at the beginning. As a woman I have been programmed to be a good girl, to be monogamous and to believe that sex is not allowed unless it accompanies undying love and hopeless devotion. I have found some real empowerment in behaving in a way that is more definitive of a man. Sundance teases me and says now that I have two sets of balls, I think I'm really something!

It's still an adventure and a bit of an experiment, maybe, but so much good has come out of our poly life that I can't say I have regrets. Sometimes I do regret that I let myself fall in love with another man in the first place, because that's where our journey started. But this has been, for us, a way to let that love run its course without causing destruction to the love I already had with my husband. I never thought it was possible to do it this way. But poly is all about possibilities -- and I'm sure you are discovering that for yourself!

Don't you find that, coming from a religious family, poly is another way of freeing yourself from the restraints of conventional society? I have enjoyed the "what if?" journey, very much. Who says it has to be a certain way? I love questioning things. I'm a bit of a late bloomer in that regard. Tried to stay on the straight and narrow path, even all through college, because to question the institutions was very scary to me. Now I am finding it exhilarating! And my family has not been nearly as freaked out as I thought they would be.

Geez, sorry to have gone on and on! Welcome! :)

[idrider47]

Thanks for the support Carma.
Yes, I expect to find that the poly mindset is another layer of freedom from the Christian upbringing. I'm not far enough in yet to experience the joy of it though. Still struggling thru the emotions of RBR's new relationship and what that all means.

And speaking of that, she and E want to go away for a couple days this week to have time away to build their relationship. I know its not going to be long before the have sex, and I am as prepared for that as I think I can be. My concern is that "IF" I have a bad time of it, it will be 2-3 days before I can talk things out with her.... That seems like a HUGE amount of time if things are bad, so I dont want to sign up for that. But, I also want to be supportive and not try to control things... I feel pressure to give the green light but have serious concerns and really dont want too....

Any advise from the group would be greatly appreciated... Am I just being a putz here?

[BrigidsDaughter]

I don't think you are being a putz. Ultimately, you shouldn't feel pressured into anything. Offer to meet her half way, if you think you can. What about a compromise, say 24 hours instead of 48 or going somewhere within communication range so that you or she can check in and see how you are doing?

[dingedheart]

I'm a jump in the cold water type of guy.... wading in is prolonged pain not acclamation for me....that being said you got to ask which do I want? When faced with similar situations I asked myself if it was a normal dating situation they would be making all these decisions based on how they felt about each other ....not a third person .....so I didn't want to incumber anything ....I also didn't want to be the weak one .....or viewed as the weak one or spoke about as being a reason something that was planned then got cancelled.....No way.

I found the thoughts of and the conversations leading up to an event such as you describe were more trouble some or emotional than the actual event itself. In your case you should just imagine using the camper with some young hot new babe under similar circumstances.....and you can't or shouldn't get any blow back. You could look at it as paying it forward or an investment so to speak. While their gone and you are doing your normal day to day activities and see an attractive lovely .....just think I wonder if she likes camping .... or god I'd love to go for a weekend with her anywhere. Have fun with those thoughts instead worrying about possible negative stuff.

Good luck D

[idrider47]

Thanks for the support. I'm in a better place now but this still sucks. I really want to begin to experience the good side of poly. So far, it's the shits.

Right now RBR is out with her significant other, sealing the deal. She asked me before she went and I told her she should go if she wanted too.

NRE is a supreme bitch. It's amazing how it changes attitudes, changes agreements, and causes someone that is supposed to love you to act in ways that are extremely insensitive to someone that is struggling.

Too all you people out there that may have a loved one trying to support you in this new venture, please try to be sensitive with your actions. Someone that is feeling bad already can be made to feel completely unimportant and invisible very quickly.

[Carma]

We found out that dates for me and my BF, while my husband was sitting home, were NOT going to work for us. Sundance totally freaked when we tried that. It wasn't worth it to put him through the angst. We have worked things out so I see Butch Cassidy during the day, while Sundance is at work (luckily, Butch and I have flexible weekday schedules). Weekends the only time I see Butch is if the three of us go out together.

There are lots of different arrangements and agreements. I hope you and RBR find one that works best for you. It sounds like she is trying to be considerate of your feelings; I hope so. I hurt Sundance a lot in those early days, through all the trial and error, but fortunately our love endured. It sounds like you both have big hearts and you will make it through, too.

[idrider47]

Thanks for the support Carma.
I do know that RBR is trying, she just doesn't understand so things aren't lining up as she wanted them too.

Its amazing how much of a roller coaster this whole thing is. I think we'll find a way to smooth things out over time though.

RBR and I have worked it all out, learned from our mistakes so we can try to not repeat them, so I think we're on good ground again.

It's weird how things change, just a few months ago I don't think I could have ever imagined we would be where we are.

RBR is now firmly headed off down her poly path. I'm still searching for what I want to do exactly and how I want to do it. I'm looking to meet new folks here in Boise, but it's really hard. I think the mode for this time is just to be open and accepting, love RBR and support her, and then see what comes.

[idrider47]

Today is the darkest day by far. Another sleepless night, another emotional meltdown.

RBR suggested that I read FreeTime's thread as a way of gaining perspective. She wants me to just gut through this.

As she posted on her other post, I am so consumed by this at this moment that I couldn't even focus on work today and came home early. I didn't come home to work on the problem directly with her exactly, but I did come home to read and try to figure out a way to at the very least survive this. It seems like we've talked this to death, and we often reach impasses where I want to slow down (or better yet, stop!) and that makes her feel controlled.

One of the comments posted to RBR's post struck the very center of the target, so much so that I had to send them a message thanking them. They have been private messaging with me, trying to help me get through today without doing something stupid to make things worse.

I'm spending the day reading through FreeTime's thread (I think it's something like 30 pages long) to see if I can gain perspective. I think RBR's thought is that I should see that it gets better for others, therefore it will get better for me. I don't know that, and I'm not sure why I should sign up for continuing this at this point. The only thing I can come up with is that RBR is important to me, in spite of all that is happening now.

[idrider47]

Hi All
I want to say thanks so much for all the support today. It's been a rough day, but we got through it and with the help of all you fine folks I think we actually have a good outcome.

I only made it up to page 24 of FreeTime's thread, but there were a huge number of parallels, things going the exact same directions. I am looking forward to getting to the rest as soon as possible.

DblDub talked me out of doing some stupid things that would have further hurt the situation, and RBR heard the group loud and clear that she needs to slow down. We've been working out the details of what a slow down will look like, so all in all it's a pretty positive outcome that we can move forward with.

Thanks again for all the support, and the roller coaster starts to climb again!

Cheers!
Rider

[Minxxa]

You know the rollercoaster can be fun... as long as you don't think you're going to lose your life on it. :)

I was reminded recently of a scene from "Parenthood"... where the grandma is talking about how she went to the carnival with her beau when they were dating and how many people were scared of the roller coaster, they preferred the merry-go-round. But she liked the roller coaster... it was exciting and new and never boring. I think of that often when I'm feeling like "roller coaster" is a bad thing.

I'm glad you two are talking things through. :)

[idrider47]

Today is so much better. No freak out today, much more acceptance and forgiveness of the hurts that were occurring.

Feel like I definitely have my head above water today and I'm not in any danger of getting sucked down today.

Today I think it's going to be ok moving forward. With all the goings on yesterday, RBR realized that she had to slow down and isn't holding it against me as the "bad guy that is trying to control her", and I think that was exactly what I needed. We talked through what was causing the problems and developed some ways to make sure that we weren't repeating those same mistakes. I'm sure we'll find others, but we'll deal with those as they come.

After reading so much of FreeTime's thread, I feel like I should know that other meltdown's are coming, so we talked about that openly. I definitely do not feel like we are "there", and honestly, I've read here that people that are years into this still have freak outs. I think this is just part of this lifestyle, so I'll just strap in and hold on.

Happy Thursday!

[idrider47]

Well, we enjoyed one day to catch our breath before problems jumped up again.

This time it's around activities. When this started, it was about RBR doing activities with someone else that I couldn't do, or wasn't interested in. But the rub comes when she wants to do things with her boyfriend that I also want to do. I just don't know how to handle that yet.

It's not a meltdown day, but RBR and I are definitely at odds over the situation, and I posted a thread in the New to Poly section with full details and asking for help in how to process and learn from this situation.

I feel like all this battling through these problems is not making our marriage better, it's killing it. I don't want to just pretend I'm ok with everything, but I also don't want to be the bad guy every time I struggle with something. Other people have made it so I'm hoping we do too. Hard to see how at this moment though....

[nycindie]

Sit down and establish boundaries and ground rules in advance. Then you won't have to keep going over everything unless something new comes up.

[idrider47]

Hello NYCindie
Yeah, I think we thought that we did that. I'm understanding the problem better and better as we go through this morning. I think there are three issues.

The first is that we decided that evenings and weekends were reserved for Rider and RBR. RBR and E can see each other during the work day when Rider is at work, so that seemed fair. But we did put a clause in there that there could be special times that are negotiated in advance to accommodate something RBR and E wanted to do that would normally be Rider/RBR time. The very first thing that happened after negotiating the agreement was to exercise the exception clause and go for a weekend night. That was a bit of a push, but I thought it would be ok, just from a time perspective.

Then, looking at the event itself, it turns out to be an event that I want to do. So I am struggling with how to view that and feel about that. Thus far, RBR and E have only done things that were on her list of things that I had trouble doing with her.

Then finally, this has brought out marital problems that I didn't know we had. It is a discovery for me that RBR didn't think I would want to do this activity. She apparently doesn't know me the way she thinks she does and was 100% wrong on that, which has me feeling like I'm being marginalized or compartmentalized, with all the new and exciting activities going to E.

[nycindie]

Then finally, this has brought out marital problems that I didn't know we had. It is a discovery for me that RBR didn't think I would want to do this activity. She apparently doesn't know me the way she thinks she does and was 100% wrong on that, which has me feeling like I'm being marginalized or compartmentalized, with all the new and exciting activities going to E.

Believe me, it's more of a marital problem if you do not continually find and discover new things about each other! Keeping a relationship fresh and alive is key, and not giving in to seeing a partner the same old way every day is what makes that possible. I wrote this on your other thread:

And as far as still discovering things about each other after so many years together -- halleluiah! Relationships where this doesn't happen are stagnant, boring, and predictable. It's always a good thing when we can look at someone we've loved and known a long time and see them anew, because that means we are present, living in the here and now, and seeing past old beliefs.

Thank goodness she didn't know this about you! I suggest that you guys are in a great place if this is happening. You are rising out of preconceived expectations and seeing each other as people in the present, not ideas of who you are to each other.

[idrider47]

As always, good advice nycindie.
I really want to latch onto this thought.

I asked RBR this morning to understand that perhaps she doesn't know me as well as she thinks. I don't think she heard me, but I think I need to do the exact same thing!!

[Minxxa]

Hi ID! :)

Maybe instead of telling her that she doesn't know you as well as she thinks she does, you can suggest that the two of you share some time to really talk about things, without the assumption that you know everything about who the other person is. Acknowledge that many times with a long term relationship, we stop really seeing the other person and start taking shortcuts and putting them in boxes and don't see them changing and adapting, or don't see that we put them in the wrong box.

There's a few really cool party games that basically have random questions that you choose and answer, and it starts conversation. I can't for the life of me remember the name of it, but seriously... it might be a fun evening for the two of you to talk about new things or old things with new perspectives. Like NYCindie said, it's great that there is still more to learn, time to capitalize on it and use that to build new ties and bridges.

I'm actually going to steal this idea for when hubby comes home because we definitely have that issue as well. He hasn't really seen ME in a long time, and I still see him in terms of old issues and problems. We really do have to sit down and meet each other all over again.

[idrider47]

So, this is Rider continuing on my journey, trying to discover the root of all the problems I’ve been having this week, and figure some things out.

I would like to state up front here that we are struggling with the gravity of what this thread means. I wrote the post and RBR has read it and given her approval to post it.

For the remainder of this post, I want to define the terms that I will use, and what they mean to me so others can understand. I am NOT saying that this is the only meaning for these words, just saying that this is what I mean when I say marriage, autonomous, or independent. I really don’t want to offend anyone by the use of these words, so please let me say in advance that I’m fully open to the fact that there are many different ways to use these words and give them the meaning that best suits you – that’s all cool!

Marriage – a commitment between two people, that includes with it a deep entanglement of emotion, devotion, physically and sexually, finances, it basically includes the entangling of two entire people, everything about them. They become partners in everything, incur a responsibility to the other spouse, supporting and loving each other through their lives together. In an arrangement like this, all important decisions would be made collectively.

Autonomy – an autonomous person makes all their own decisions, is not entangled with anyone else, may chose to consider or consult others in their decisions, but the key here is that all decisions are made by the individual, not collectively. An autonomous person is not responsible to any other individual.

Independence – I see independence as lying somewhere between married or entangled, and autonomous. An independent person could be married, and does likely include significant entanglement, but also has a strong sense of self, needs to make some (or even many) decisions on their own, often needs alone time, etc.

Again, please don’t argue over the terms and definitions. The idea here is to be sure that I can clearly communicate.

What I think I have learned this week:

In order to make sure that I never had an affair or cheated on RBR, I made her my whole world, I looked to her for anything that I needed from a woman, spiritually, emotionally, and sexually. I have had other female friends, but if there was ever an attraction, I gently moved away from the relationship, just to be sure that it was never an option to cheat on RBR. This worked to ensure that I never had to make that choice. If it’s not an option, it can’t happen. That worked for our 20-year marriage, but it also created a thick entanglement between us, something that moved beyond entanglement into codependence. I knew she was my whole world, but I did not know how deep it ran, that I was actually what some would consider codependent with her.

RBR desires autonomy, plain and simple. She wants to be able to do what she pleases, make her own decisions, and not incur a responsibility to anyone else. She does desire some entanglement, but that too is on her terms. She decides where she is willing to be entangled, and the terms of that entanglement.

I think I want entanglement, maybe even codependence. I want to be very intertwined and partner in all things. And given the definitions above, you should be able to immediately see the rub.

When RBR and I started this journey, I’ve found that it was with some pretty high naivety. I thought poly would mean adding new love and relationship to my life. It would mean granting and receiving more independence in our relationship, which was necessary to facilitate each of us having other relationships, but in general the overall effect would be adding, not taking away.

I think what happened as we have moved into this is that I discovered RBR’s deep sense of having been controlled, and her longing to be free of any responsibility to me. She wants autonomy as defined above.

The way I’m viewing things, marriage is closed, and could not include other emotional, physical and romantic relationships. Autonomy is incompatible with marriage, as the entanglement and partnering that comes with marriage is exactly the opposite of autonomy.

Independence is somewhere between the entanglement of marriage and autonomy.

RBR wants autonomy, and in order for me to grant that, it meant that the deep entanglement that I had built over the marriage had to be dismantled. I think this means that the “marriage” as I have known it is over. I think this is what the deep sense of profound loss and hopelessness that I have been experiencing this week has been all about. Mourning that loss.

RBR is not asking for a divorce at this moment, she wants to continue to be legally married, raise our kids together, own a house together, live together, etc., but she also is all about her autonomy. She wants to make all her own decisions and not have any responsibility to me for anything. I will be part of the relationship between RBR and I, but basically have no part in any other relationship she chooses to have.

The autonomy RBR seeks she also grants to others, so I will have the same autonomy she desires, freedom to make my own decisions and have the responsibility for them. The difference is that this isn’t what I want.

This makes RBR sound selfish, or the bad guy here. I don’t think that is the case. RBR deserves the freedom to pursue happiness in life just as anyone else.

So, I think autonomy means that she is in a relationship with me at her own pleasure. She will grant love, devotion, time, and even entanglement in her terms, to what suits her. I on the other hand have the option to accept those terms, negotiate for other terms, or leave the relationship.

I’ve been all over the map emotionally this week, so no decisions are being made. I’m just trying to understand what I’m feeling and why.

The deep emotional problems I’ve been experiencing this week are due to me coming to the understanding of how deeply incompatible RBR and I have become, and the ripping and tearing that has occurred in me as she separates herself from me to gain autonomy. It has bothered me that this seems so easy for her. In truth, in our discussions it is coming out that she probably left the marriage some number of years ago; it’s just all coming out now.

She is sad that this has all occurred, and she never meant for this to be happening. As I started this post, we entered poly thinking we were opening our marriage to new love and relationship to be added to what we have. As it turns out, this led to the discovery that we really didn’t have anything left.

I still love RBR very much and she says she loves me, but the new RBR is incompatible with me. I cannot love her as the autonomous person she desires to be.

RBR doesn’t like these words, as they go down very hard, and make us both sad. The problem is that I want entanglement and she wants autonomy, which I feel are mutually exclusive.

We’re not having an emotional meltdown today, but we are both very sad, as I think that this means that we’ve come to the end of our marriage.

It’s amazing how unemotional this is at this moment. Very sad though.

We are going to give it some time to make this decision. We talked about perhaps getting marriage counseling from a counselor that was onboard with poly. But it will really all come down to RBR deciding what she wants. I can’t stay with the new RBR as described here.

[Minxxa]

I relate a little to this post. I too have been very enmeshed with my husband, to the point where I made him my world to a certain point. I am also in the process of unmeshing (LOL, I don't think that's a word) us, and it's difficult for me to do that and still feel connected to him. I am building a life of my own, for myself, so that I'm living my life as an independent person WITH my husband instead of living this fully enmeshed live we have lived.

It hasn't been easy. Not so much the finding my own way part, but as I do that I feel less and less connected to him-- at least not connected as I have been. And yes, there has been a feeling of loss. I just thought a couple of days ago that the painful feeling of loss may just be a side effect of that ungrappling that's going on... that pulling myself out from him and back into myself, it's a definite change.. and yes, there is loss to that. Hopefully there is something to gain as well (I'm pretty sure there is) but I'm not there yet.

As far as autonomy goes, I have had the same feelings at times that my husband seems to just do whatever he wants regardless of how I feel about it and my opinions on the matter. I thought about that a lot recently, and it's something we will most definitely be discussing when he gets home. The fact is, no relationship of ANY type can survive if somebody does whatever they want without considering the others' feelings. A friendship can't survive if one person does what they want, and runs over the other person saying "this is what I want to do, if you don't, then fine but I'm doing it anyway". A child/parent relationship can't last that way... i really don't think ANY relationship can survive that. Somebody who makes their own decisions without regard to anybody else will end up all alone eventually because NOBODY wants to be in a relationship with somebody like that-- not even the people who do that to others. I guarantee if I just did what I wanted regardless of what my husband thought or felt we'd be done in a very short period of time because he would not like it, would not be able to handle it and our relationship would be killed. My guess is if you did the same thing to RBR, did what you wanted without regard to how she felt... she would not like it. Nobody wants to be involved with somebody like that.

We are all responsible to other people at some point in our lives, whether it's our employers, our partners, our children, our family or our friends.