The Sexual element [Archive] - Polyamory.com Forum

GroundedSpirit

11-11-2009, 03:31 PM

We'd like to get a thread going with respondents from both genders. So guys, please don't overwhelm this ! Ladies - we NEED your input & thoughts on this desperately.
Humans are sexual creatures. Despite how anyone would want to try to paint it, the sexual component of polyamory is an important part of the desire to embrace the lifestyle. It is NOT the only one - but an important one - and one where most of the pitfalls lie.
It seems to be a fact (yes - exceptions always exist) that the sexual needs & desires of males are very different from females. Herein lies the root of most of the "complications" of alternative lifestyles as well as the vast majority of more conventional relationships.
Here we'd like to make a statement of observation - based on MANY years of close observation, intimate relationships & conversations etc.

" In a 'relationship" the primary needs of each gender are.......
Males > Sex first, emotional needs secondary
Females > Emotional needs first, Sexual needs secondary "

Again note the disclaimer of acknowledging exceptions to any rule.

So........ if, as a species, we agree to the accuracy of these trends/observations, should we not ask the question " What can/should be done about the obvious conflict" ?

We'd like to start the conversation by offering a possible starting suggestion for both genders.

Males:
Be attuned to the ladies emotional needs, voice explicitly to them that you DO acknowledge them, and try to learn better how to meet those needs and discuss it frequently !

Females:
Try to dispose of societal programming about your gender. Embrace the natural sexuality you were gifted with at birth. The term "slut" can well be (and should be) a term of endearment ! A true orgasm (or a few) can be a huge boost to both your physical and emotional health.

Ok - so let's hear it from you all !

C & K

Ceoli

11-11-2009, 04:47 PM

This is a question that goes way beyond "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". There is an entire academic field devoted to asking that very question. It is a complex one indeed.

But what you seem to be addressing in your suggestions doesn't address emotional vs. sexual needs, it seems to be addressing society's sexual repression of women. Those are two very different subjects.

So here's my Cliff's Notes version of the larger question and what it entails.

1. Recognize the difference between gender and sex.
2. Agree on what constructs gender and sex.
3. Recognize societal programming in both genders, what their causes are and what purpose that programming has served (I notice that you ask females to dispose of societal programming but not males)
4. Recognize the biological programming of both genders.
5. Learn and understand the complex relationship between societal and biological programming.
6. Educate people on all of it.

There's a lot of good reading out there on this subject from many feminist academics and authors. Judith Butler's "Gender Trouble" addresses this with the idea of "performativity" which applies to feminist and queer theory. It also probably applies to polyamory as much of how we conduct our romances in life is performative- that is they fill a constructed role in our society.

Another really good read is "Evolution's Rainbow- diversity, gender and sexuality in nature and people" by Joan Roughgarden.

GroundedSpirit

11-11-2009, 09:16 PM

Thanks C,
Really appreciated the thoughtful post.
We also agree that is was less than complete by leaving out the need for male realignment also - but the choice was somewhat intentional at first, based on a concern of scale.
The omission of genetic predisposition was absolutely intentionally omitted. Don't want or dare to touch THAT one ! The jury is very much still out on how rigid the genetic controls are and there's much active research underway that's strongly pointing to the fact that we have far more control over even that then was originally suspected.
Anyway................
Lest this turn into a scientific thread <smile> we'd like to keep the focus on soliciting input from the female population regarding their perspective on their choice (intentional or otherwise) to suppress or ignore their special sexual potential.
As another "seed" observation, we've note a 10 fold increase in bisexuality among males in the last few years. Now - not seeing this as a "bad" thing necessarily, but only as a lagging indicator of how relationships are evolving.
The primary difference being the sexual choices with the males seem to be driven out of frustration rather than thought out choices.
Our feelings are that it would not be a step "forward" were we to evolve to a point of a primarily gay & lesbian society because of the inability to openly discuss and work together on these differences.

Comments from everyone ?????

BexyandBen

11-11-2009, 09:21 PM

Ben speaking here:

I have been told by several women that I "make love like a woman". The first time I heard this, I thought I was being mocked. She had to explain it as a compliment.

As a man, I have greater need for the emotional component than the sexual. I just ended a year and a half relationship with a woman where we never had sex. We slept together. We were intimate on occasion. But we never had sex. It was all me, in fact--she was actually begging me at times. But I didn't feel the emotional connection that *I* needed to "go there" with her.

As it turns out, she was lying, cheating, stealing and leading me on, so I look back and I'm glad that I held back.

So, I'm not sure how I fit into the cookie-cutter on this one.

Ceoli

11-11-2009, 09:23 PM

As another "seed" observation, we've note a 10 fold increase in bisexuality among males in the last few years. Now - not seeing this as a "bad" thing necessarily, but only as a lagging indicator of how relationships are evolving.
The primary difference being the sexual choices with the males seem to be driven out of frustration rather than thought out choices.

Can you explain this bit? I'm not quite understanding what you're getting at here. I don't see the connection between the conclusion you draw (men's sexual choices being out of frustration) and the indicator you're talking about (increase in male bi-sexuality).

MonoVCPHG

11-11-2009, 09:26 PM

Can you explain this bit? I'm not quite understanding what you're getting at here. I don't see the connection between the conclusion you draw (men's sexual choices being out of frustration) and the indicator you're talking about (increase in male bi-sexuality).

It almost seems to me that he is indicating that because men can't get woman to have sex with, they are turning to bi-sexuality. Like they are frustrated with trying to get laid by woman so they are turning to their similarly frustrated buddies.

I could be way off though..not the first time :)

Ceoli

11-11-2009, 09:29 PM

Well, Mono, if that's what they're thinking, that's a mighty big leap to be making. I'd need to hear a lot more justification for such conclusions.

MonoVCPHG

11-11-2009, 09:41 PM

GroundedSpirit

11-11-2009, 10:29 PM

Hello Everyone,
Ok - just getting used to this Forum posting so hoping this post lands in a proper place. Only way we could figure out how to do it ?
Mono has tagged it dead on - i.e that the general consensus seems to be that large numbers of males are "coming out" if you would, and either embracing or experimenting with their bisexual side solely from lack of available females to attempt any alternative form of relationship other than full 100% monogamous commitment. Classic marriage in some form at least.
But Cioli - it's really not a terribly big leap although we can't be totally sure it's not more of a States issue than a global one. You, having maybe more of a global exposure, may have a different perspective. We could certainly take you on a "tour" of numerous meeting sites here in the US where you could experience this yourself. It's quite astounding compared to 10 - even 5 years ago.

Ceoli

11-11-2009, 10:32 PM

Mono has tagged it dead on - i.e that the general consensus seems to be that large numbers of males are "coming out" if you would, and either embracing or experimenting with their bisexual side solely from lack of available females to attempt any alternative form of relationship other than full 100% monogamous commitment. Classic marriage in some form at least.

General consensus from where? What evidence are you basing this conclusion on?

Magdlyn

11-11-2009, 10:35 PM

I'd have a hard time buying into that. Sounds like it would be based on very localized personal experiences. I would think social acceptance would be the main reason for more men to be openly bisexual and that would greatly impact the stats.

ITA. Thank the goddess many are letting go of the social stigma associated with being a gay (bi) male.

I'd like to add my input. I am a highly sexual female. I ID as queer and tho i appear femme in many ways, I do have "male" qualities. I am assertive, open, energetic and often dress in men's tshirts, jeans and chucks. I never wear high heels. But I do get a kick out of dressing up boho/girly as well.

But, my libido! OMG. Once peri-menopause got underway 10 yrs ago, and my kids were all finally sleeping thru the night, I became MUCH more interested in sex, and went from multi-orgasmic (like 3 or 4 Os) to being able cum almost unlimitedly for an hour or much more.

I've been with my current primary partner for only 10 mos. I still feel NRE for her, but hers seems to have faded somewhat (altho she denies this, and it could be related to job loss depression). One of the things I miss about the earlier months was when I'd walk thru the door after not seeing her for a couple days, and we'd imm kiss and run to bed.

In speaking of men and women, I'd like to add my partner is a MtoF transgendered woman. So. The gender binary doesnt really relate to us, we both share aspects of both genders. I'm a switch, I can top or bottom...

redpepper

11-12-2009, 03:06 AM

I would also like to see some stats please....

I think humans are humans and that it has just become more socially acceptable to be into both men and women.... end of story. It's a great time to be fucking!!!:D

Even 15 years ago when I came out as a lesbian I was shunned and ostracized. It's hard to believe now as things have become far more fluid and open....

Yup, we are so lucky now...

As a highly sexual woman I am damn glad to be living in North America and in this time in history. Bring on the fucking!!!!:eek:

bookworm

11-12-2009, 01:19 PM

I'd have a hard time buying into that. Sounds like it would be based on very localized personal experiences. I would think social acceptance would be the main reason for more men to be openly bisexual and that would greatly impact the stats.

I tend to agree with this. My bf is bi and its certainly not bc we don't have enough sex. He is primarily sexual with women, but he still enjoys being with a guy occasionally. And its very sensual when he is with a guy, its not just quick sex and thats it.

GroundedSpirit

11-12-2009, 04:26 PM

Ceoli,
Being members of a variety "meeting" sites - both conventional and alternative lifestyle areas as well as spending time on those and other live chat networks we can only absolutely assure you the surge is real. Currently I bet we are approached between 50 - 100 times a week by bisexual or curious men that would like involvement with an open minded couple.
Being the philosophical and research minded people we are, we, whenever possible, take the time to have real in-depth conversations with as many of these people as time permits.
The explanations and reasoning form a VERY obvious pattern.

We wonder why YOU are questioning this so intensely ?
Is it that shocking ? Does it hold some deeper meaning for you ?

Our only intent in broaching this topic was to try to raise the awareness level, particularly, in the female population, of the true repercussions of their attitudes & actions. To maybe foster a little self analysis by asking the question - "is this the society I would intentionally choose to foster & live in?"

Is this gap to large to bridge ? Do we end up with a world where M/F sex (or any of the other various options MMF etc) exists solely for reproductive purposes ? What do we lose by not stretching ourselves a little to form those bonds and understand each other ?

Wish we could see more activity on this topic............

Ceoli

11-12-2009, 04:55 PM

Being members of a variety "meeting" sites - both conventional and alternative lifestyle areas as well as spending time on those and other live chat networks we can only absolutely assure you the surge is real. Currently I bet we are approached between 50 - 100 times a week by bisexual or curious men that would like involvement with an open minded couple.
Being the philosophical and research minded people we are, we, whenever possible, take the time to have real in-depth conversations with as many of these people as time permits.
The explanations and reasoning form a VERY obvious pattern.

Your pattern is still biased by a selective population of people. What you're practicing is something called confirmation bias. Instead of using a statistically balanced sample, you're finding men from meeting sites which already skews your sample. Then when you find men that are interested in meeting couples, you have further skewed your sample. Now it may be that more bisexual men who are bisexual for the reasons you state have better access, but that gives no information about the population as a whole.

To put it another way: I like apple pie. I join a site that is about apple pie and I'm noticing more and more people are joining said apple pie site. Wow! That must mean there must be a surge of apple pie likers in the world, huh?

No, it means more people are joining an apple pie website. There is no other information one can really glean from that because there are far too many factors that are unaccounted for. This is why anecdotal evidence *isn't* used to illustrate statistical trends.

We wonder why YOU are questioning this so intensely ?
Is it that shocking ? Does it hold some deeper meaning for you ?

Are these assumptions you're making? I am questioning it specifically because social science is something I'm very interested in as well as gender studies and queer issues, particularly those issues around bisexual identity (I identify as bisexual). I see severe cracks in the reasoning upon which you're building this entire question. I also question it because I'm pretty sure most of the men of the bisexual community would be rather insulted by the assertions you're making. And when I see assumptions based on very little evidence that seem to promote destructive stereotypes (i.e. more and more bisexual men are bi because they must be sexually frustrated) you can bet I'm going to want some pretty clear conclusive evidence of it. You haven't been able to provide that.

Our only intent in broaching this topic was to try to raise the awareness level, particularly, in the female population, of the true repercussions of their attitudes & actions. To maybe foster a little self analysis by asking the question - "is this the society I would intentionally choose to foster & live in?"

Is this gap to large to bridge ? Do we end up with a world where M/F sex (or any of the other various options MMF etc) exists solely for reproductive purposes ? What do we lose by not stretching ourselves a little to form those bonds and understand each other ?

I think you'll find that there are far more aware people than you're assuming. You'll also find that there are a heck of a lot of people of all genders already doing such analysis. However, it seems that if that analysis doesn't fit into how you think it should look, then there's no place for it in your conversation. If you are indeed philosophical and research minded, I would suggest that before you re-invent the wheel here, you educate yourselves with some reading on gender studies, feminism and queer theory where these are not new questions or conversations.

GroundedSpirit

11-12-2009, 05:27 PM

Ceoli

11-12-2009, 05:33 PM

::shrug:: If looking for clarity of reasoning and factual support is doing a disservice to the readers, then so be it.

redsirenn

11-12-2009, 06:47 PM

Its interesting... One of my most sexually positive friends is really not receptive to the idea of polyamory. When I bring it up to her she seems to get defensive and simply says that it won't work. Me and O will break up. End of story.
Others who are not as sexually positive are more supportive and analyze the situation more objectively. I feel there must have been some sort of trigger in my other friend to make her react this way. However, most of my close friends would "Never" even consider exploring this lifestyle. One, who is in a long term relationship said she is actually a bit jealous of me! She wishes she could do the same - or at least talk about it.

For myself - My libido has never been higher. I have gotten over the "wrong vs right" thing about sex, and I stay safe. I have a new appreciation for my body, and the male body. I am probably one of the few women who think penises are beautiful. I admire them, which I know is out of the box. Many people say this about women's bodies, but I think men are works of art too - and not just the muscular ones.

I think I just decided "fuck it" (ha pun intended) and embraced my sexuality post divorce, realizing that it is healthy, and that all that matters is that I and others are safe within my actions, both emotionally and physically.

Fidelia

11-12-2009, 07:22 PM

I agree with Ceoli and RedPepper. I'd like to see some statistics, too. Clarity of reasoning and factual support would be very helpful in furthering this discussion.

Also, characterizing the discussion of your reasoning and the request for factual support as a "rant" isn't conducive to encouraging others to join the discussion.

Finally, perhaps you might want to spend a little more time reading existing posts here on this forum before you assume the ladies here are generally operating under the enculturation of repression so prevalent in Western society. If the common social motivators worked on us polyfolk, we would all be traditional monogamists; clearly, we are not. Because love and respect for all parties, including oneself, demonstrated through honesty, trust, compassion, and open communication lie at the heart of polyamory, I've found that many or most of the polyfolk here have either done the work to discover their own genuine needs and desires (including their sexuality) or are in the process of doing so. Thus, many observations which may apply to society in general do not apply to polyamorists. If I were to make a generalization about polyfolk, I would say that, in general, we have either shaken off the shackles of repression, are picking the locks now, or at least rattling the chains.

AutumnalTone

11-12-2009, 08:10 PM

General consensus from where? What evidence are you basing this conclusion on?

The problem I have with it is that men who are involved in institutional homosexual relations or those getting sex "on the down low" with other men because they don't have willing female partners don't identify as bisexual--they identify as straight. That the only sexual outlet they had was homosexual doesn't change their basic orientation, and once they have female partners available they no longer engage in homosexual activity.

So, there'd have to be some seriously large studies performed that support the notion that men are identifying as bi simply because they don't have female partners available before I'd accept that premise as true. I'll wager the reason more men are identifying as bi has to do with increased acceptance of bisexuality.

Ceoli

11-12-2009, 08:15 PM

The problem I have with it is that men who are involved in institutional homosexual relations or those getting sex "on the down low" with other men because they don't have willing female partners don't identify as bisexual--they identify as straight.

Bingo!

NeonKaos

11-12-2009, 08:48 PM

Our only intent in broaching this topic was to try to raise the awareness level, particularly, in the female population, of the true repercussions of their attitudes & actions. To maybe foster a little self analysis by asking the question - "is this the society I would intentionally choose to foster & live in?"

Wish we could see more activity on this topic............

You asked for "activity" and after telling Ceoli to essentially STFU, I'm gonna give you some "activity":

It sounds like what you are saying is that women better start giving their men more sex OR ELSE the men are going to get together and have sex without us.

Thanks for making us "aware" of that.

Ptooey!

redsirenn

11-12-2009, 09:04 PM

Finally, perhaps you might want to spend a little more time reading existing posts here on this forum before you assume the ladies here are generally operating under the enculturation of repression so prevalent in Western society. .... I would say that, in general, we have either shaken off the shackles of repression, are picking the locks now, or at least rattling the chains.

You asked for "activity" and after telling Ceoli to essentially STFU, I'm gonna give you some "activity":

It sounds like what you are saying is that women better start giving their men more sex OR ELSE the men are going to get together and have sex without us.

Thanks for making us "aware" of that.

Ptooey!

Right On. :cool:

NeonKaos

11-12-2009, 09:08 PM

Females:
Try to dispose of societal programming about your gender. Embrace the natural sexuality you were gifted with at birth. The term "slut" can well be (and should be) a term of endearment ! A true orgasm (or a few) can be a huge boost to both your physical and emotional health.

What is an orgasm?

Is that the Japanese thing where you fold paper into shapes like birds and fruit and stuff?

GroundedSpirit

11-12-2009, 09:25 PM

Hi Everyone,

Thanks again for the comments so far. In hindsight it seems - without this clarification - this was not a productive topic for the readers here. As mentioned in a later post - which so far only a couple people seem to have picked up on - the topic was really intended for a larger group. People who are already poly or poly minded have searched themselves to a degree for answers.
The hope in posting was that other members may have had some of these discussions with their mono friends and could weigh in on how some of those conversations went. Redsirenn - thanks for your sharing. (sorry - haven't figured out the Quote thing yet)
Lets all just hope that the subject of Poly as a possible viable solution to some age old problems continues to spread to the mainstream.
{{{{{Hugs}}}} to all

Ilove2men

11-12-2009, 10:49 PM

I guess without viagra all women in their golden years would switch to being les since their husbands can't get it up. Oh wait according to this we are happy just being emotionally satisfied.

Ever heard of the angry vagina? Woman are just as much if not more frustrated with men in the sac. Maybe these men who are so frustrated with woman need to improve their skills.

I think its a big insult to the gay and bi sexual community to think that men are "settling". From my experience with my gay male friends they have super high standards so who in their right mind (besides someone in prison) would think that they would have a better chance of getting laid with a man.

Its an insult to men in general actually. That they have no self control and will screw anything that is available regardless of if the person is their type. And that they don't have the will power to continue to search out the ones they seek to share their life with. It reaks of laziness.

So if even gay men won't have sex with a particular frustrated person, is beastiality the next resort? I'm sorry I like my men to have self control and standards. Excuse my vulgarity, but if you can't get me wet that's your issue not mine because contrary to what men who don't know how to please women believe women LOVE sex. Ever heard of a little thing called she's just not that into you?

redpepper

11-13-2009, 05:46 AM

Ok Ceoli,
This rant is starting to be a disservice to the readers. We're not going to get any other feedback if it continues so.........
We'll give you your points on scientific validity (never the intention anyway) but ding you points on your "confirmation bias" theory. Totally familiar with that and definitely not the case.
But again, Nuff said. Be happy to continue the debate/clarification in some other way, but feel it's unfair to the readers to continue it here. We believe our email is public here (?) so feel free if it really means that much to you.
In the meantime - lets hear it from others ...............

How many of you ladies have had serious, heartfelt discussions with your mono minded friends and what - if anything- would it have taken to get them to really sit down and analyze their options and choices ?

Are you fucking serious?!

LOL

I can't even go on reading from here without expressing how rude I thought you just were to Ceoli! She had some valid points that she has taken the time to express, where I, personally couldn't be bothered to.

Ah, no.... I think this "rant" can continue on quite nicely here as far as I'm concerned. I have no objection and actually CAN be bothered to read it now that Ceoli has quite nicely put into words almost exactly what I was thinking and couldn't be bothered to say.

now I will continue reading as I am sure there will be something more I will want to say....

Fidelia

11-13-2009, 06:01 AM

Right On. :cool:
:cool:

MonoVCPHG

11-13-2009, 06:04 AM

I must have missed something here... I thought this was a poly forum? I simply think this whole thread has been misdirected in audience.

I'm sorry but this topic seems to have come from a place of "personal" frustrations and not the frustration of men in general. I'll be honest again. I have several mono male friends that complain about being frustrated because they can't get women to date and certainly fuck. News flash to them...you have to get outside in the world, take care of yourself, and inevitably engage real people to form real relationships. This might be a total tangent, but I see a whole stream of men complaining about things they will never achieve locked in their apartments with the latest add on to World of Warcraft, Doritos colored fingers, and walls of pop cans blocking the sun from hitting their pasty faces. What kind of profile pic is that?!

In general, we are the ones to blame for not finding what we need, not "circumstance" or female disinterest.

Women seem to know how to find the men they want and are willing to work on themselves to do it...it's about time some men figure that out.

Disclaimer - This comment was in no way an attack on gamers...I used to be a total gamer too..even before computers :eek:

Peace and love
Mono

redpepper

11-13-2009, 06:11 AM

Oh this has got my heart pumping...

First off, I am so glad to see that the women on this forum have largely come together to express much of what I would... Thanks to them for that!

My husband and I were on an online dating site last year and notice similar bisexual curiosity in some men also. We even dated one and he discovered that, BINGO, he is not bi at all, but was just that, curious and straight. We also noticed that there were a lot of bi-curious women AND a lot of cheating men and women. SO WHAT! IT'S A DATING SIGHT! of course you will find that there....

I agree, it's an insult to all men and women that you make the accusation that women aren't putting out enough and that men have resorted to each other to get their needs met...! I thought by saying that my libido happens to be high and that I put out ALOT! That I made MY point clear that women DO LOVE SEX! Enough to have more than one partner sometimes!

MonoVCPHG

11-13-2009, 06:18 AM

I put out ALOT!!

WTF!! We haven't even had sex yet and it's been over ten months!! This is fuckin' bullshit!

:p Some one has to inject some humor into this...and yes, you do put out a lot....yipppppeee!!!

Fidelia

11-13-2009, 06:23 AM

In hindsight it seems - without this clarification - this was not a productive topic for the readers here. . . . People who are already poly or poly minded have searched themselves to a degree for answers.

Ya think?

I find it very interesting and significant that that one of your first stated concerns was

guys, please don't overwhelm this ! Ladies - we NEED your input & thoughts on this desperately.

Be careful what you wish for. You just may get it.

redpepper

11-13-2009, 06:37 AM

Being the philosophical and research minded people we are, we, whenever possible, take the time to have real in-depth conversations with as many of these people as time permits.
The explanations and reasoning form a VERY obvious pattern.

My brother and his girlfriend are PHD students. behavioral biology. They would laugh in your face at this post... just because YOU have noticed something does not make it a "VERY obvious pattern." Please don't make statements like that without real proof... perhaps you need to start a research proposal that asks the question, "do men resort to bisexuality more often because they aren't getting fucked enough by women?" THEN do REAL research and get back to us.

Our only intent in broaching this topic was to try to raise the awareness level, particularly, in the female population, of the true repercussions of their attitudes & actions. To maybe foster a little self analysis by asking the question - "is this the society I would intentionally choose to foster & live in?"

Is this gap to large to bridge ? Do we end up with a world where M/F sex (or any of the other various options MMF etc) exists solely for reproductive purposes ? What do we lose by not stretching ourselves a little to form those bonds and understand each other ?

Wish we could see more activity on this topic............

I am aware that our society is severely screwed, yes... not because of it's women, but because of what people do to each other. We have become a society that wants things "now," is selfish, unempathetic, lazy, ignorant to the world around them, and down right apathetic.

I would in no way say that women are to blame, in fact, if you are having problems with womens attitudes and actions then you might want to take a good hard look at why this comes up for you... why you see this... what has been done to them that they are acting this way. Chances are it's YOU that has the issue and they are reacting because of it... is that not we are doing one here? Is that not what you have caused by telling Ceoli to "shut up you are blocking me from my idealized version of what a woman is???"

As far as stretching those bonds to understand each other... you gotta do better than what you have on here and start doing some real hard work sorting yourself out if you want MY respect.

For what its worth? in my world? I've had my baby and have no use for reproduction anymore... I am fucking because I love it and the men I have in my life are good to me, treat me right and allow me to treat them right too. If that goes out of line, I won't have them in my life... just as they wouldn't have me in theirs. There is no sexual difference of any kind... we all like fucking as much as the others, we all like closeness as much as the others, we all like doing a variety of things as much as the others. To get back to your original post? There are no differences between men and women as far as sex goes... just differences in character, personality, and life history that bring us to where we are today.

redpepper

11-13-2009, 06:48 AM

JonnyAce

11-13-2009, 08:10 AM

Some one has to inject some humor into this...and yes, you do put out a lot....yipppppeee!!!

BAHAHAHAHA, yer the best Mono :D you always know how to lighten the mood when things get too serious.

redpepper

11-13-2009, 08:16 AM

WTF!! We haven't even had sex yet and it's been over ten months!! This is fuckin' bullshit!

:p Some one has to inject some humor into this...and yes, you do put out a lot....yipppppeee!!!

oh you! :D you make me smile. I love you.

Ceoli

11-13-2009, 12:27 PM

groundedspirit, now that we have totally lambasted you....

Why are you asking the questions you do? :confused: why do you have this view of women and men as being so different in their desire for sex and why do you think that men are looking to other men to fulfill their need? Apart from "you have noticed this to be true"

I thought they were pretty clear about it. They seem to think it's because women in our society aren't in touch enough with their sexuality and have bowed to the shackles of repression whereas men haven't. They are trying to liberate society.

Groundedspirit: You may have noticed the strong reaction in this thread. I'm sure you think it's because you put this to the wrong audience or because people just can't seem to grasp the advanced concepts you're putting out there, but you would be wrong. It's because of HOW you decided to carry out this conversation. You had no interest in listening to any points that didn't line up with what you think should have been said about the topic. You had no interest in exploring the fact that most of us think (and pretty much know) that your initial premise is flawed (And this ISN'T about being scientific- it's about having CLEAR reasoning). Instead of examining that premise you got defensive and refused to have an actual exchange of ideas about that (because that's not what you wanted to talk about). And honestly, you showed your true colors when you decided to characterize me with the word "femi-nazi" over PM (even if you stuck a little grin next to it). Perhaps you are not so far ahead of the curve as you perceive yourselves to be. Perhaps you would be better off actually ACTIVELY listening to the issues raised in this thread instead of dismissing them. Perhaps you would benefit from little more humility when approaching conversations like this.

NeonKaos

11-13-2009, 01:22 PM

Perhaps you would be better off actually ACTIVELY listening to the issues raised in this thread instead of dismissing them. Perhaps you would benefit from little more humility when approaching conversations like this.

Srsly. It's supposed to be all about the JOURNEY, not just the destination.

Fidelia

11-13-2009, 03:22 PM

FEMI-NAZI? :mad: Oh no they didn't! *snap!* :mad:

Ceoli, you deserve infinitely more respect and consideration than GroundedSpirit has exhibited. For many, many reasons, but especially in this case for taking the time to engage in an open, honest discussion of this very important and sometimes sensitive issue. As one of the people who have benefitted from the depth of experience and wisdom you've shared on these boards, I want to thank you for being here. Your insight, wisdom and experience are an ongoing source of inspiration to me, and to many others.

GroundedSpirit: you owe Ceoli an apology. And you owe yourself an attitude adjustment. You seem to me to be encouraging the ladies here at the forum to express our thoughts and opinions as long as they agree with yours, and as long as we're willing to STFU when you tell us to. This is an open forum and a community of EQUALS. Deal with it.

redpepper

11-13-2009, 03:37 PM

It seems to me he owes us all an apology at this point. Certainly Ceoli!

An apology and an explanation as I am stunned that in this day and age there still exsists such women haters! I thought we were over all that (Its like someone has just dropped in from another century). At least enough that men keep their misogynistic crap to themselves and their buddies around the bar! Maybe I am naïve... Probably.

I'd like to know who this "we" is and what the other half has to say as this seems rather one sided? If it is a woman that is your "we" does she know she is being represented in this way? What's the story here?

NeonKaos

11-13-2009, 03:42 PM

I'd like to know who this "we" is and what the other half has to say as this seems rather one sided? If it is a woman that is your "we" does she know she is being represented in this way? What's the story here?

From reading between the lines of "their" posts, I suspect that they are Unicorn Hunters who keep getting approached by men instead of women.

redpepper

11-13-2009, 03:46 PM

yes, well, I wan't going to say it but. As usual Ygirl your suspicion is probably what a lot of people are thinking.... the unicorn hunters who look for lost puppies, not real women.

I am wondering if we will get a response along the line of all of us femi-nazis need to "chill" as in what Ceoli got in her PM. Don't think we don't pass around PM's peeps! Especially when there is some solidarity needed on an issue.

I await explanation or at least a "discussion" as is what should of occurred way back at the beginning before you told Ceoli to shut up.

MonoVCPHG

11-13-2009, 05:07 PM

Ceoli

11-13-2009, 05:11 PM

I'd be impressed (and I mean that sincerely) if the OP did actually come back to discuss the issues raised.

But thanks everyone, solidarity makes me feel all warm and fuzzy :D

NeonKaos

11-13-2009, 05:13 PM

But thanks everyone, solidarity makes me feel all warm and fuzzy :D

Common sense make me feel all warm and fuzzy :cool:

MonoVCPHG

11-13-2009, 05:40 PM

Not shaving makes me feel that way :)

redpepper

11-13-2009, 05:41 PM

Well one good thing came out of their comments..there is at least one less guy to compete with for all those other men just about to have sex with their buddy because they can't find a date!

Back away from the penis boys..there's still hope :rolleyes:

Leave the boys at the bar with their blow jobs and women hating! You better get your butt over here for some good good lovin' cause with a sense of humour like that!? and the way you treat me? YOU baby, are gettin' LAID! :cool:

Fidelia

11-13-2009, 06:10 PM

Ladies - we NEED your input & thoughts on this desperately
These are our thoughts and input. How do you like 'em so far? Need some more? :mad:

I know, I know . . . I'm trying to let it go.
*Big, cleansing breaths. Visualizing world peace, calm ocean, blue sky . . . *

But JEESH! Do NOT be coming up in here and disrespecting the polypeeps! WTF!

Okay, I'm giving myself a time out.

redsirenn

11-13-2009, 06:45 PM

Back away from the penis boys..there's still hope :rolleyes:

That totally made me laugh. :D

Magdlyn

11-13-2009, 07:13 PM

I think he's gone. Us feminazis can lay down our swords. Which we carry out of penis envy.

Magdlyn

11-13-2009, 07:15 PM

Leave the boys at the bar with their blow jobs and women hating! You better get your butt over here for some good good lovin' cause with a sense of humour like that!? and the way you treat me? YOU baby, are gettin' LAID! :cool:

Hey, Red, I havent had a shag from a man in over a week. You interested? Youre just second best but wth.

:p

redpepper

11-13-2009, 07:23 PM

Hey, Red, I havent had a shag from a man in over a week. You interested? Youre just second best but wth.

:p

I got some nice cocks for you baby. No envy here. I know how to make a cock work. Grrr!

Magdlyn

11-13-2009, 07:25 PM

*melt*

(oh btw, i dont know how closely this bd is modded, so somebody stop me if I offend.)

redpepper

11-13-2009, 07:43 PM

I'm pretty sure no one is complaining so far ;)

Ceoli

11-13-2009, 08:15 PM

Ok, now I'm feeling pretty crappy about the fact that I'm not getting any right now. Thanks girls...:p

redpepper

11-13-2009, 08:34 PM

Its a party and you are invited Ceoli :)

JonnyAce

11-14-2009, 09:56 AM

this being a poly party who else is invited? all this talk is getting me hot&bothered. :p

Fidelia

11-14-2009, 02:19 PM

Wanna call Imaginary Illusion? I'd bet he'd be glad to bring the Lube.

Magdlyn

11-14-2009, 05:23 PM

Please to introduce the new girl to all your lubricious friends. :cool:

ImaginaryIllusion

11-15-2009, 06:23 AM

Wanna call Imaginary Illusion?

Alright, this forum is all about poly...which means relationships, feelings, the L word...you know it.
Four Letters, ...
...starts with L, ...
...ends with E...
....that’s right...you know it, you want it....it’s the only word you need to know on a weekend like this...yes....OH OH OOH YES, say it with me now....

ELLE ...YOU ...BEE ...EEEEEEEE!

LUBE!!!

THAT’S RIGHT, LUBE, LUBE, LUBE!

You asked for it LUBE LOVERS, now slip on in!

Here at Imaginary Illusions International Lube Emporium we're slashing LUBE in HALF! Give us an offer on our vast selection of LUBE. This is a LUBE BLOW OUT!

All right, we got clear LUBE, white LUBE, black LUBE, Spanish LUBE, yellow LUBE, we got hot LUBE, cold LUBE, we got wet LUBE, we got dry LUBE, we got [sniffs] smelly LUBE, we even got sticky LUBE!

We got LUBE for guys, LUBE for gals. We got LUBE for gals and guys. We got LUBE for your friends, we got LUBE for multiple friends. We got LUBE for righty’s and lefties. We got LUBE for innies, we got LUBE for outies, we got Indoor LUBE, we got Outdoor LUBE, we got... YOU guessed it...BACKDOOR LUBE, one of the slickest lubes ever developed by NASA for the International Space Station…it Lubes and Soothes all at the same time!!!

Are you a discriminating LUBE lover? Need something a little different? That’s ok... Imaginary Illusions International Lube Emporium has you covered head to toes in anything to make conversation and any portions of your anatomy run ...SMOOTHLY.

We got hairy LUBE, bloody LUBE, we got snappin' LUBE, we got silk LUBE, velvet LUBE, Naugahyde LUBE, Not just for your kitten either..we even got horse LUBE, dog LUBE, chicken LUBE! We even have Alien LUBE...no...this isn’t just for those without a green card. It’s the only LUBE accepted by the little Greys. Lovingly crafted by the guys wearing tinfoil hats, specially ordered and shipped from Uncle Fry’s Outpost near Area 51! Results guaranteed by the USAF...accept no substitute for your abduction experience! (Guarantee only valid for carbon based life forms)

Like walking on the wild side? We got Leather LUBE, we got PVC LUBE, we got Candle Wax LUBE, we got Cuff LUBE, we got Flogger LUBE. Need something rougher ask at the LUBE-ido desk about our selection of Sandpaper LUBES!

No order is too big or too small. We got LUBE in individual sample packs, we got LUBE in jerry cans, or even by the truckload. Having a pool party? Drain that sucker, and go from zeppo to SLIPO! OH OH! OH YEAH! Nothing beats a LUBE party!

We carry a full line of LUBE-LUBEs...that’s right. Take your basic unmodified LUBE and make it go FURTHER, LONGER, or SLIPPERIER with LUBE-LUBEs. Combine that with our full line of 244 flavoured LUBEs and there’ll be no excuse for not having the perfect LUBE to compliment your favourite chardonnay!

Come on, you want LUBE! WE GOT LUBE! Glide on in, LUBE LOVERS to Imaginary Illusions International Lube Emporium!
If we don't got it, you don't want it!
Lather up LUBE LOVERS and slide on in!

Derbylicious

11-15-2009, 06:45 AM

Now I'm really not opening that box marked "glue and lube" in the basement ;)

Fidelia

11-15-2009, 02:57 PM

HAHAHAHAHoHoHA HEE HEE HEE HAHA HEE HEE HAHA *snort* HAHAHAHoHoHoHA HEE HEE HEE HAHA HEE HEE HAHA :D

ROFLMAO!

Fidelia

11-15-2009, 02:59 PM

:D You've been waiting for the right time to slip that one in, haven't you Imaginary?

Magdlyn

11-15-2009, 04:03 PM

Wow. I feel so lubed and soothed at the same time. Ahhh...

No, no, not the sandpaper!

Anything but the rough stuff!

Ceoli

11-15-2009, 04:13 PM

NeonKaos

11-15-2009, 06:20 PM

As a point of information, the OP feels that this thread has degenerated into a flame war and feels that it is counter-productive. He chooses to "not fan the flames" rather than be accountable for the offensive points he made. That must be a convenient way to live.

Well its nice to see that they are keeping in touch with us vicariously through you. Tell them I said hi, and that I'm still wondering if "orgasm" is another word for "Japanese paper folding".

redpepper

11-15-2009, 06:33 PM

Did you cum Fidelia? Imaginary worked hard for that one!!!

Magdlyn you next?

Derby, you'll have to wait until your man gets home.

Ceoli, ygirl and I are waiting in the wings. And maybe jonny.... imaginary, good thing you got lots of lube!

anyone else?

Fidelia

11-16-2009, 12:24 AM

Did you cum Fidelia? Imaginary worked hard for that one!!

I'll say! :D And Boy, Imaginary knows how to get the job done!

ImaginaryIllusion

11-16-2009, 12:30 AM

Did you cum Fidelia? Imaginary worked hard for that one!!!

I'll say! :D And Boy, Imaginary knows how to get the job done!

What can I say? I'm Gooood! :cool:

Fidelia

11-16-2009, 12:53 AM

Ceoli should be next, since it's been awhile for her.

Magdlyn

11-16-2009, 01:18 AM

What can I say? I'm Gooood! :cool:

*places order by PM*

MonoVCPHG

11-16-2009, 01:45 AM

What can I say? I'm Gooood! :cool:

Sometimes being straight and mono sucks..I'm missing out I know it!! :mad:

ImaginaryIllusion

11-17-2009, 04:01 AM

*places order by PM*
Sometimes being straight and mono sucks..I'm missing out I know it!! :mad:

Oh yeah...to paraphrase Silent Bob's buddy Jay...

They LOOOOOVE the LUBE!!!!

MonoVCPHG

11-17-2009, 04:18 AM

Oh yeah...to paraphrase Silent Bob's buddy Jay...

They LOOOOOVE the LUBE!!!!

I knew it!! This is bullshit!
There's got to be a pill or something....not the little blue one either, I need poly and bi damned it, not monogamous and hard. :mad:

Ceoli

11-17-2009, 04:20 AM

They LOOOOOVE the LUBE!!!!

His lube brings all the girls to the yard.

MonoVCPHG

11-17-2009, 04:20 AM

His lube brings all the girls to the yard.

Bwahhhaahaaa!!

Derbylicious

11-17-2009, 04:29 AM

And then they fall down?

MonoVCPHG

11-17-2009, 04:34 AM

and then he pounces!!

Derbylicious

11-17-2009, 05:14 AM

and then he pounces!!

hahahaha I just got the full visual in my head complete with cat suit.

JonnyAce

11-17-2009, 05:25 AM

i'm so glad that this post has turned from ignorance to hilarity, and awesomeness! :D

MonoVCPHG

11-17-2009, 05:54 AM

hahahaha I just got the full visual in my head complete with cat suit.

It's the hissing that makes me crack up!

Hey Johnyace..good to see your smile :D!!!

JonnyAce

11-17-2009, 06:12 AM

wow i was just reminded of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. if you don't watch it, you should.

also Mono, i'm glad to be smiling.
to go on a bit of a tangent here, i couldn't be happier with JustChristine, it's such a better situation than my previous one, and i smile every day knowing i have her in my life. :D

ok tangent over, i just needed to get that out.

MonoVCPHG

11-17-2009, 06:23 AM

That's great Johny! Take care and feel free to go on tangents..most of the best threads seem to take us all ove the place LOL!

redpepper

11-17-2009, 06:59 AM

I'm loving the fact that the OP is likely getting all this via email :D tee hee.

MonoVCPHG

11-17-2009, 07:07 AM

yup, yup!

NeonKaos

11-17-2009, 03:17 PM

I added some tags, but I can only add 2.

Add more tags folks pls.

AutumnalTone

11-17-2009, 06:19 PM

Well its nice to see that they are keeping in touch with us vicariously through you. Tell them I said hi, and that I'm still wondering if "orgasm" is another word for "Japanese paper folding".

I'm picturing contortionist geishas all folded up and naked, practicing origasmi....

redpepper

11-19-2009, 07:21 AM

I got some nice cocks for you baby. No envy here. I know how to make a cock work. Grrr!

OMG I am so embarrassed :o

Mono was reading this over tonight and laughing that I was so willing to give over my men to the cause of someones need to get laid. I didn't mean that at all by this statement! I meant that I have a harness and some mighty fine dildos for it.... your pick Magdlyn!

haha :o:D

Magdlyn

11-19-2009, 12:21 PM

Oh haha. I knew you meant *your* cocks, Red. Not those belonging to some random guys I *wasn't* flirting with. I've got a cock or two myself... let's have show and tell!

GroundedSpirit

11-19-2009, 03:35 PM

Glad to see everyone is having some fun!
We need more smiles in the world :)

GSS

Magdlyn

11-19-2009, 04:19 PM

Glad to see everyone is having some fun!
We need more smiles in the world :)

GSS

You're so pompous. You still owe Ceoli a public apology for calling her thoughtful post a "rant."

Fidelia

11-19-2009, 04:24 PM

Glad to see everyone is having some fun!
We need more smiles in the world :)

We also need more respect, integrity and accountability.

LovingRadiance

11-19-2009, 11:04 PM

LovingRadiance

11-19-2009, 11:17 PM

I agree, it's an insult to all men and women that you make the accusation that women aren't putting out enough and that men have resorted to each other to get their needs met...! I thought by saying that my libido happens to be high and that I put out ALOT! That I made MY point clear that women DO LOVE SEX! Enough to have more than one partner sometimes!
May I cheat (verbally) and just say Ditto instead of re-writing all that. ;)

Keep two men going easily every day... figure I could handle another if there were one like Mono around here-but alas, he's been taken! :p

LovingRadiance

11-19-2009, 11:30 PM

For what its worth? in my world? I've had my baby and have no use for reproduction anymore... I am fucking because I love it and the men I have in my life are good to me, treat me right and allow me to treat them right too. If that goes out of line, I won't have them in my life... just as they wouldn't have me in theirs. There is no sexual difference of any kind... we all like fucking as much as the others, we all like closeness as much as the others, we all like doing a variety of things as much as the others. To get back to your original post? There are no differences between men and women as far as sex goes... just differences in character, personality, and life history that bring us to where we are today.

And this one too??

LovingRadiance

11-19-2009, 11:32 PM

groundedspirit: You may have noticed the strong reaction in this thread. I'm sure you think it's because you put this to the wrong audience or because people just can't seem to grasp the advanced concepts you're putting out there, but you would be wrong. It's because of how you decided to carry out this conversation. You had no interest in listening to any points that didn't line up with what you think should have been said about the topic. You had no interest in exploring the fact that most of us think (and pretty much know) that your initial premise is flawed (and this isn't about being scientific- it's about having clear reasoning). Instead of examining that premise you got defensive and refused to have an actual exchange of ideas about that (because that's not what you wanted to talk about). And honestly, you showed your true colors when you decided to characterize me with the word "femi-nazi" over pm (even if you stuck a little grin next to it). Perhaps you are not so far ahead of the curve as you perceive yourselves to be. Perhaps you would be better off actually actively listening to the issues raised in this thread instead of dismissing them. Perhaps you would benefit from little more humility when approaching conversations like this.

big huge kisses to you ceoli!!!

LovingRadiance

11-19-2009, 11:35 PM

LovingRadiance

11-19-2009, 11:38 PM

Ok, now I'm feeling pretty crappy about the fact that I'm not getting any right now. Thanks girls...:p

:confused:

Funny that I was JUST yesterday telling Maca it was too damn bad you are so damn far away!

He says-"I got plenty if you come to AK"

;) Just for you Ceoli! {Smooch}

LovingRadiance

11-19-2009, 11:43 PM

I knew it!! This is bullshit!
There's got to be a pill or something....not the little blue one either, I need poly and bi damned it, not monogamous and hard. :mad:

:eek:
:eek:
:eek:

LovingRadiance

11-19-2009, 11:45 PM

Not much to add-but I agree on the "need to deliver an apology".

Ceoli

11-20-2009, 04:03 AM

<blush>

GroundedSpirit

11-21-2009, 03:18 PM

Ok - let's see if we can rectify this situation.
For those of you who may have been offended by my choice of words & tersness, please accept my full & sincere apology. I indeed "know better" and made a common mistake by making an assumption (we all know what Assume often does) that the focus would fall on the words and not the manner of presentation. Shortcuts are always dangerous....
To quote some of what I've shared in some private conversations.................

"Steering conversations. Yes, glad you picked up on that. But not in the beginning ?
If you've ever had much experience in group worksessions etc one of the things you learn real early on is that without some moderating element (usually a person), any topic can VERY easily drift, sometimes far. You often end up in a totally different place, on a totally different topic and often accomplish nothing :( At best you have to back up and start all over again unless you are willing to abandon the topic entirely in lieu of somewhere else you have ended up that seems more promising. That's rarely the case in practice, but sometimes on really broad topics it's worth the risk to hang on for awhile and see where it goes. I won't go into here why I chose to try to reign it in early but suffice to say that the "direction" Ceoli wanted to go was going to end us up FAR away from where we started, and the topic being pretty narrow as opposed to broad really didn't call for that.
I think if you go back and reread you see that I tried to say ALL of that in a sentence or two - leaving too much open to individual understanding & interpretation. My bad. Seldom get away with that (shortcuts).
In any case, once the "reactions" started it was a lost cause at that point and 2/3 (or more) of the postings were going to end up in all this personal sniping and point/counterpoint about "my" presentation and little or nothing to do with the topic at hand. This kind of stuff discourages readers and therefore devalues the forum in general."

A note here to one of the Moderators who weighed in on their feelings about any attempts of a thread poster (OP) to attempt to "moderate" a thread in an way. Point taken. We may have to agree to disagree on that one, but will respect the position you've been granted and refrain from trying to keep things running in a consistent direction. Let it go where it will. I do however stand firmly on my position (from extensive experience) that such discussions seldom reach their potential.

So...........in short.........(is this possible?)

The original thread was stated from the beginning as coming from personal observations. Nothing more - nothing less. The question was raised that IF (notice the emphasis on IF) there was indeed any pattern starting to emerge here - what might that mean and should we be concerned about it ?
One poster obviously followed that well and commented about the possibility of "local bias" or something of that nature. I didn't disagree with that to a degree, as my experiences in this area have largely been limited to the US and a minor amount of European friends/contacts.
In trying to explain questions that came up I may have also been guilty of throwing out some overly broad information that got interpreted as "statistical" ! Those comments were drawn from a lot of years of study and personal experience & conversations. The were never intended to be interpreted as anything else. Do I recall exactly the sources that led to some of those "big picture" statements. Hell no !! But I'll stand by them as accurate, (as accurate as any broad, big picture statement ever is) and there's no doubt in my mind than anyone with similar background holds the same or similar conclusions and that the supporting data IS out there for those who would be inclined to be concerned enough to do the investigation. The "picture" was painted from reading thousands (maybe 10s of thousands?) of essays, books, research papers, Internet articles etc and equally as many or more personal conversations.
At least that's how I always approach such issues. If I question some assumption someone has, and it's (the ramifications) important to me, I'll do my own independent investigation. I don't just put my hands on my hips and scream "Prove It!". But - that's just me. I had neither the time nor desire for turning what was supposed to be a general question of "What IF this were the case?" into some scientific study that would bore most and discourage others from following along. Does this help explain anything ? I sincerely hope so.

If a couple of people approach me and comment that they seem to be noticing a lot of the trees along a particular highway yellowing & dying during what should be their peak growing season, I'm going to go look for myself, or at MINIMUM mention to my circle of friends that someone else claimed to observe it - and is this something we should check out ? Because the ramifications, if true, would concern me greatly !

And that, friends, was the spirit in which the original thread was begun.......

So for those feeling some need for an "apology" - I hope this suffices. I do take full responsibility for my possible bad choice of wording in an attempt to be brief and stay focused, and as I mentioned before - shortcuts frequently come back to haunt you.

GS

redpepper

11-21-2009, 05:00 PM

thanks for that groundspirit :)

I wonder if your original post has anything to do with your personal life? I know you are not comfortable with talking about things of a personal nature on a public forum, but as you are completely anonymous I wonder if you can find it in you to open up and talk about the topic of "women and their possible decline in sexual desire" in terms of your personal life. What is it about that course of study that interests you so much?

I think that you will find that others would be willing to be compassionate and respectful to the delicacy of the topic if you were to "go there" so to speak.

Again, thanks for the attempt at rectifying the situation here... :):D

Ceoli

11-21-2009, 06:09 PM

I will say that this felt much more like a justification for your behavior rather than an apology but even though you missed the point, the attempt is appreciated.

The fact is that threads do wander. I'm a professional facilitator and work with groups in facilitating work sessions. There are some basic things you need to do that: a room full of people with the same basic goals and people working from the same basic baselines in the conversation. This isn't a work group. This is a an open online forum. There's a big difference. Also, in any good facilitated groups all concerns are raised and dealt with as part of the process, not treated as a distraction from the topic. Also, facilitators "take the temperature of the room" always. This means that if there are concerns raised (as was raised by many women in the thread) they are listened to and dealt with. Again, not treated as going off topic. In order for the discussion to happen, you needed people to accept your premise, yet you refused to allow a discussion about your premise.

I stand by my former statement that if you want an honest open discussion, the issues around your premise need to be addressed. In your premise, there were stereotypes about women that are harmful and inaccurate and as a person who identifies as a woman, I would seem to think that I would be able to raise such concerns in a community like this without being characterized as a "femi-nazi" or my concerns characterized as ranting. But then again, I have pretty high standards for such things.