I think I failed

[NightDragon]

First let me appologize. I'm typing this through many tears and will probably ramble.

Things have not been very good here with the Dragons. I have recently discovered that I am controlling and have major depression issues that might very well stem back to my childhood. In short it has made me codependent.

On top of this, I don't want Dragonfly to be "IN" love with DragonBorn. When we first discused having anyone joining us it was mostly just sexual. When anything was brought up more it was ok for feelings to develop, but I don't think we thought ever feelings like this were possible. All we said to each other was, "You're mine!" I never would have thought DF would be "IN" love with anyone else other then me. And god damn, not in less then 2 months. Anyways... you have all heard that before.

Well now, DF is out talking with DB somewhere. She doesn't know what she's going to do. With either of us. She might stay with me and not him. She might stay with both. She might stay with him and not me.

How did I fail? Did I fail as a husband that cause a void in her heart that DB was able to fill? Did I fail as a human being? I love her so much that it feels like a HUGE sword is stabbed me right through the heart. It hurts so bad, and all I want to do is die so the pain stops. But I can't do that. I just today come to understand that I am included in the equation of her happiness. That I am at least part of what makes her complete. I hate that I have to share in "completing" my wife with DB.

On top of this I no longer feel complete. And so the pain continues and grows, turning and turning in a viscious cycle feeding it self in misery. All I can think of is maybe this would have been different if we would have discussed this possiblity? Would it be different if me and DB were bi? Would it be different if DB was a woman? Does any of this even matter if I'm going to loose my wife, the greatest thing that has ever come into my life?

Please someone I need answers! I need to know what to do!!! We have been comunicating. OMG, it feels like that's all we do is fucking talk! I'm so sick of talking! How do I get rid of this pain?!?!? What do I do to save my marriage? What do "I" do to be able to deal with her being "IN" love with another man? How do I not go completly fucking crazy when they are going to be alone, doing god knows fucking what let alone falling more and more in love with each other?!?!

Please... please... please...

[redpepper]

poor nightdragon... I feel your pain, it sounds like it is really hurting right now. I don't know what it's like to feel that way. I can honestly say I never have. I hope to god that I never do.

I do however understand your dragonfly. I understand entirely. I understand beyond what you are both going through at the moment and what it can blossom into for EVERYONE. I don't want to belittle your pain, I really don't, but it does get easier.... are you sure there is not something else going on in the form of a gut feeling about what they share? You have felt like this for awhile now no? Perhaps there is something you are missing, not getting, not seeing clearly? Just wondering....

Mono helped me through some major issues last winter around my inability to be alone. My husband went through similar feelings you are as a result, but he eventually saw the change in me and consequently how I relate to him and was thankful to Mono as he was unable to add anymore help. The two of them take great pride in offering me two different but equally valid forms of support... right now Mono is snoozing on my shoulder while my husband sleeps having went to bed early due to a flu bug coming on. I would be alone tonight on our date night if Mono hadn't of come over to chat, have tea and eventually fall asleep while I go on the forum. My husband rested easy knowing my needs are taken care of so he can look after his.

Hope this helps in some way... I guess I am saying what I always do... go and find out what you are missing in your life, for "YOU." Not what you and dragonfly have together, but your own personal alone time "you (I feel as if I have said this before). " At the very least, if it all doesn't work out you will be better for it and if it does work out, you still will be better for it. Embrace yourself, embrace the work it takes to work on yourself and embrace the space you now have as she sorts out her own life. That doesn't mean less love, but FAR MORE. It takes a strong love to be able to let someone go and be themselves in the world, knowing they love you regardless.

[HappiestManAlive]

My friend, you and I need to go have a drink together. Our third just pulled some amazingly fucked up bullshit and brought our relationship and frankly a large portion of my self confidence crashing down hard.

Every petty, stupid insecurity and feeling of worthlessness and failure that I've spent 13 years of self discovery and life experience putting to rest has reared their ugly little heads in less than 48 hours. I didn't even know most of them still existed in there.

I'm sorry to hear you're hurting. I misplaced your number, call me. Believe me, I'll be up, lol.

[LovingRadiance]

First let me appologize. I'm typing this through many tears and will probably ramble.

Things have not been very good here with the Dragons. I have recently discovered that I am controlling and have major depression issues that might very well stem back to my childhood. In short it has made me codependent.

On top of this, I don't want Dragonfly to be "IN" love with DragonBorn. When we first discused having anyone joining us it was mostly just sexual. When anything was brought up more it was ok for feelings to develop, but I don't think we thought ever feelings like this were possible. All we said to each other was, "You're mine!" I never would have thought DF would be "IN" love with anyone else other then me. And god damn, not in less then 2 months. Anyways... you have all heard that before.

Well now, DF is out talking with DB somewhere. She doesn't know what she's going to do. With either of us. She might stay with me and not him. She might stay with both. She might stay with him and not me.

How did I fail? Did I fail as a husband that cause a void in her heart that DB was able to fill? Did I fail as a human being? I love her so much that it feels like a HUGE sword is stabbed me right through the heart. It hurts so bad, and all I want to do is die so the pain stops. But I can't do that. I just today come to understand that I am included in the equation of her happiness. That I am at least part of what makes her complete. I hate that I have to share in "completing" my wife with DB.

On top of this I no longer feel complete. And so the pain continues and grows, turning and turning in a viscious cycle feeding it self in misery. All I can think of is maybe this would have been different if we would have discussed this possiblity? Would it be different if me and DB were bi? Would it be different if DB was a woman? Does any of this even matter if I'm going to loose my wife, the greatest thing that has ever come into my life?

Please someone I need answers! I need to know what to do!!! We have been comunicating. OMG, it feels like that's all we do is fucking talk! I'm so sick of talking! How do I get rid of this pain?!?!? What do I do to save my marriage? What do "I" do to be able to deal with her being "IN" love with another man? How do I not go completly fucking crazy when they are going to be alone, doing god knows fucking what let alone falling more and more in love with each other?!?!

Please... please... please...

FIRST and FOREMOST-take a deep breath.
You need to pause-slow down.

Maca has MAJOR control, depression and insecurity/trust issues due to his childhood. It nearly did us in as well. We've been together 11 years and only in the last two month has anything begun to change.

I can tell you what it took. HE had to take a chance. You can't annihilate a fear if you won't face it and work THROUGH it. Not run from it, go THROUGH it.

Obviously the two of you need to address (you and wife) what NEEDS exist. BUT for you to do that you MUST take your control, fear, depression OUT of the equation. You can not identify TRUE needs from that mental state. Maca has started counseling with me AND alone. Learning to pull himself out of the emotions is KEY and learning to make decisions from a place outside of them as well.

I think he could clearly understand your position. He's at work right now, but you might send him a PM. When he gets home he always checks in here and I know he feels your pain in much of his life.

Don't make rash decisions right now. Just as they say with grief after a death-NEVER make major decisions at that moment. It's dangerous because you could easily make ones you will later regret. You need to ask your wife to pause as well. Let her know you just aren't clear-headed or ok and you need time to get that under control so you can make reasonable decisions. You ought to let the other Dragon know as well.

Just PAUSE. Don't hit "delete" so to speak on anything in your life. AND Look for a counselor who deals with trauma. They tend to be better at dealing with the ongoing effects of childhood issues that erupt into your adult life.

[violet]

It sounds like you and I had/have a lot of the same issues. Seriously, bro. You have no idea. Or maybe you do, I dunno.

If you need someone to talk to, HMA and I are nearby. I was lucky, I guess. I get to work through my feelings on my own time, now that Anne is gone. I'm so sorry you're stuck.

I wish my best for you.

[NightDragon]

Well right now Dragonfly is out, driving around, or sitting somewhere, I don't know, alone with just herself and her thoughts so she can figure out what she wants, needs, etc.... I'm here loosing my mind waiting to find out that I'm gonna loose everything! And now even if she does choose to be with me, I can no longer accept DragonBorn in our relationship. I can not trust him. He gave me his word that if problems arrose with me and DF that he would at least back off temporarily. Instead he's waiting to hear DF's decision and find out if he's the lucky one. I thought he was my friend. I trusted him. And now because of him I run the risk of loosing the best thing that has ever happened in my life. I loose my world, everything. I have nothing without DF. Nothing! She says she'll buy me a plane ticket. To where? She says FL to my mothers. Great, my mother lives with her fiancee. So that will be lovely. "Here let my son live here on our sofa and lets support him cause he moving here without a job, a vehicle, or any money." Oh ok, that's not really an option. I could be sent to my fathers, where again I'd be moving without a job, a vehicle, or any money, and then worst I get to be continueously brow beaten on how I'm a fuck up and a piece of shit and how luck I am that him and his family have taken me in. Talk about getting help....

Thank you all for listening. I'm sorry that you have to hear about my tragdity. I just don't want to loose my wife! I want this knife out of my back from someone I thought was a friend. I want this pain to go away!!!

[MonoVCPHG]

Sorry to hear this Nightdragon...sincerely.

[violet]

I sent you a PM, NightDragon. I feel for you SO HARD right now.

I totally understand where you're coming from, and I hope everything works out. It's fucked that DB would give you is word and back out. Eff that. I'm so sorry.

[LovingRadiance]

And now even if she does choose to be with me, I can no longer accept DragonBorn in our relationship. I can not trust him. He gave me his word that if problems arrose with me and DF that he would at least back off temporarily. Instead he's waiting to hear DF's decision and find out if he's the lucky one. I thought he was my friend. I trusted him. And now because of him I run the risk of loosing the best thing that has ever happened in my life. I loose my world, everything.

I know it's hard to give clear cut answers when emotionally you are spinning out of control. But I have some questions...

Why are you and he "waiting to hear DF's decision"?
Did one of you give her an ultimatum?
If so-who?
How is the fact that he's doing the same thing as you are making him untrustable?


It's a gut instinct-with no confirmed info-so please bare with me.
But it sounds like maybe you are being a little bit of a drama king?
OBVIOUSLY you are hurt, upset, scared and freaking out-that's OK.
But I guess I wonder if you can't understand that all three of you are in this situation and each of you is human, prone to mistakes and prone to confusing emotions as well.

I'm pretty sure I read a thread earlier (correct me if I'm wrong) that you were having issues with her emotions for the other guy. But honey-please don't take this as condescending, she can no more control her emotions than you are controlling yours right now.
Loving him-does NOT necessarily mean she does not love you....
I'm not trying to be difficult-I know pain is pain.

But I also know that Maca gave me an ultimatum at one time that it was he or C. I chose him-lost myself, we nearly lost our marriage because of that. So I went behind his back to find myself again-and we nearly lost our marriage because of that.

Only now when he's accepted that it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for me to just "stop loving" C because Maca is insecure and Maca is leaning on me lightly for support while working his BUTT off to deal with his issues, have we found the marriage we always wanted and he thought my love for C would steal from him.....

I can't help but wonder if your undealt with fears are the true cause of you pain right now and not anything he did...... :confused:

[ImaginaryIllusion]

Sorry dude...about everything. I was hoping I'd be able to offer a little something to your situation, but it sounds like it's being overtaken by events. And events which are not on! I wish you the best...and hope things calm down a little so you two can reset.

[Legion]

ah, NightDragon. I am sorry to hear you are so distraught. First I would like to say, though I don't know if you will be able to hear it from where you are:

This too, shall pass.

In times of adversity and pain we forget that life is essentially good. If nothing else, remember to be grateful for what you have, be it Dragonfly, limbs/lungs/lymphatic systems that work, &c. Everything has a way of working out in the end.

...I have recently discovered that I am controlling and have major depression issues...made me codependent.
...How did I fail? Did I fail as a husband that cause a void in her heart that DB was able to fill? Did I fail as a human being?

You have not failed anything. From a Kathy Labriola (Full Article: "Managing Jealousy in Open Relationships"
(http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/Poly/Labriola/jealousy.html) :
(monogamous)Core Beliefs:
1. If my partner really loved me, (s)he wouldnít have any desire for a sexual relationship with anyone else.
2. If my partner were happy with me, and if I were a good partner/spouse/lover/etc., my partner would be so satisfied that (s)he wouldnít want to get involved with anyone else.

It sounds like you are throwing one or both of these core beliefs into your doubting.

I think LR has some great advice. Give it some time, cool off, get your head on.

Perception = Reality. Own it! Don't let your happiness get in the way of your happiness... by that I mean think of a child at a birthday party. It's a party, right? But what ends up eventually happening? Tears, arguments, frustrations. But it's certainly not for a lack of cake! Love = Cake Unlimited, we just have to manage it right, look at it right, appreciate it.

[LovingRadiance]

Thanks Legion. ;)

I try. I hope it comes across as caring (which is how I feel when I write it) and not judgmental, sarcastic, snide or whatever (because that isn't how I feel when I write).

:confused:

[NightDragon]

Ok. First to answer some of LR's questions.

1: Why are you and he "waiting to hear DF's decision"?
She stated she no longer knows how she feels. She says she knows she loves me, but doesn't know if she can still be with me. She says she doesn't know if she does still or ever was in love with DB. She says she needs to decide what she needs to do for her. And I understand that and respect that!

2: Did one of you give her an ultimatum?
I did last night after she got home from talking to DB. The reason I did was because I feel I can no longer trust him in this relationship. He promissed me that if mine and DF's relationship looked like it was going to blow up that he would AT LEAST back away so DF and I can make our relationship healthy again. Instead, last night when she told him that she didn't know what she was going to do, with me, he didn't say what he promised he would say. I have felt for a while that he is just waiting for DF and I's relationship to explode so he can come along and pick up the pieces and be with her just himself. So with the fact that he did not keep his promise I feel that if he was to stay in the relationship (If there still is one) that he will try to undermine it and sabatoge it. So when she told me that he wasn't going to back off or away, I felt betrayed and told her I can not be in this relationship if he is apart of it.

3: If so-who?
I did.

4: How is the fact that he's doing the same thing as you are making him untrustable?
Because he gave me his word that he would at least back off to let me and DF "fix" our relationship. How can our "V" be healthy if he can't back off for the "core relationship" can be healthy?

You are quite possibly right! I probably am being a drama queen. I think HMA and Violet would laugh at that since they know what I look like. lol

I do understand that all 3 of us are/were in this. I understand that people make mistakes. But this is the second time he has not backed away when me and DF have had troubles. The first time, so I'm told, is he went to a friend of all of ours and asked if he should walk away. I honestly don't know if I believe that. Because he wasn't the one that said it, the friend did, and when the friend did, DB's body language was very surprised at first and quickly went to the "oh yeah, that's right, yeah".

I know she loves me. There was times she didn't and she has omitted that. I know that just because she loves him it doesn't mean that she doesn't love me. But I'm afraid that because she does love him that she will naturally fall out of love with me. And which I know could happen regardless if he was in this or not. But he hasn't kept his word to let me and DF make our relationship healthy again.

Yes I do have a problem with her being "IN" love with him or anyone for that matter. I know she can't "control" her emotions. Which is why I asked for help. Which is why I need to know how to come to terms and deal with her being "IN" love with someone else. For a lack of a better term, HOW DO I FIX ME! Apparently "fix" is a negative term, but I can't think of a better one right now.

Legion... Yeah I heard it. LOL

I don't believe that if she really loved me she wouldn't want to have a relationship sexual or romantic with someone else. I feel that if I was a good husband then she wouldn't need that relationship to make her complete and completely happy.

I hope this shines some light on how I'm feeling and thinking right now.

She just got back so I'm gonna get off here.

Thank you all again for your help and support!!!!!!!!

[LovingRadiance]

Oh Dear....


Well-I don't have the ability to make a "final outcome" conclusion on his actions without hearing from him.

I DO know-that I fell in love with GreenGecko years ago.
I know that Maca struggled(s) with the same types of concerns you are because of it.

More importantly I know that falling in love with GreenGecko didn't cause me in ANYWAY to fall out of love with Maca at ANY POINT. In fact-if GreenGecko had agreed to stepback "if the marriage relationship between Maca and I was on the rocks" I would be divorced from Maca right now.
Seriously.

That sounds nuts I'm sure-but it's the GODS HONEST TRUTH (whether you believe in a God or not I presume you can grasp I'm trying to show the DEPTH of truth there).

If I hadn't had Gecko backing me up, keeping me strong and reassuring me of his love there is NO WAY I could have possibly managed to hold it together through Maca's drama. I love him-I always have (since I was 13 years old actually) and I always will. BUT I'm not a strong enough person to survive the emotional beating I get when dealing with his insecurities, fears and issues.

So if Maca had enforced the rule you did-he would have ended up divorced. But what he's found is that by allowing me my love for and from GreenGecko-he gets MORE love-because I have more to give him. he has more sex (which is a big deal to him) because I am emotionally "safe, secure and satisfied" and our relationship flourishes because I can fully and honestly be my strongest, truest most honest self.

Obviously I don't know any of you. I only know that when people starting making ultimatums-they generally find themselves hurt by them.... Just not a good practice imo.

If you note that he isn't "following" a rule-then maybe the better solution would be (have been) to follow up with "has something changed in the dynamic of our relationship that requires a change in rules becuase I see that you are finding yourself unable to stick to the rules."

Relationships are organic someone said on here early (I think it was rolypoly).

I think that is sort of what I'm hearing as a problem in your situation. You are upset because the relationship grew and therefore changed and you weren't expecting or wanting that.
But the nature of LIFE AND RELATIONSHIPS is that they continue to change. Always. We are creatures of change. Every single day parts of who we are die off and new and different parts are born. We are always changing. Who was are is never the same from one day to the next.

So if YOU love her and TRULY want what is best for your marriage-then you need to really make some peace with the reality that she is an individual FIRST and your wife second. Not your wife first and an individual second.

THEN you also need to accept that about yourself and about any other person who may or may not be involved in our dynamic.

Once you do that you need to identify if where you are in your life and who you are allows for you to love her AND be with her, NO MATTER WHO SHE BECOMES.

If Maca committed murder-I would be heartbroken-but I love him NO MATTER WHO HE BECOMES and while I WOULD help prosecute him and send him to just punishment-I would not divorce him as marriage is the symbol I give to show my commitment to loving him no matter what.
.......
.......

[HappiestManAlive]

I hope it aall works out man, I hope our talk this afternoon helped. We're going out for a drink tonight no matter what. ;)

[violet]

I probably am being a drama queen. I think HMA and Violet would laugh at that since they know what I look like. lol

Yes. Yes we would. And I actually did lol - for real - when I read that. Seriously.

I hope this shines some light on how I'm feeling and thinking right now.

She just got back so I'm gonna get off here.

Thank you all again for your help and support!!!!!!!!

My thoughts are with you!

[Mark1npt]

ND......hang in there...our "V" has been where you guys are......so far we've hung on and are slowly progressing along. There's often a very slim line between a great "V" and utter distruction of three very good people/lives. I learned the hard way, ultimatums don't work. They are destructive for everyone. Just one of many mistakes I've made.

[violet]

I DO know-that I fell in love with GreenGecko years ago.
I know that Maca struggled(s) with the same types of concerns you are because of it.

More importantly I know that falling in love with GreenGecko didn't cause me in ANYWAY to fall out of love with Maca at ANY POINT. In fact-if GreenGecko had agreed to stepback "if the marriage relationship between Maca and I was on the rocks" I would be divorced from Maca right now.
Seriously.

That sounds nuts I'm sure-but it's the GODS HONEST TRUTH (whether you believe in a God or not I presume you can grasp I'm trying to show the DEPTH of truth there).

If I hadn't had Gecko backing me up, keeping me strong and reassuring me of his love there is NO WAY I could have possibly managed to hold it together through Maca's drama. I love him-I always have (since I was 13 years old actually) and I always will. BUT I'm not a strong enough person to survive the emotional beating I get when dealing with his insecurities, fears and issues.

So if Maca had enforced the rule you did-he would have ended up divorced. But what he's found is that by allowing me my love for and from GreenGecko-he gets MORE love-because I have more to give him. he has more sex (which is a big deal to him) because I am emotionally "safe, secure and satisfied" and our relationship flourishes because I can fully and honestly be my strongest, truest most honest self.

Even though what was between HMA, Anne, and I isn't there anymore, I'm still really interested in learning more about myself, and grasping poly relationships, just in case. Lol I'm curious to understand your mindset here. I think I'm in much the same place – or was – as NightDragon either is, or was. Meh. You get what I mean.

If Anne hadn't backed off when HMA and I were going through a rough spot, and HMA had just tried to assure me that he didn't fall out of love with me, and leaned on Anne for support without respecting what I was going through – HMA would have found himself single. Or, rather, with only one girlfriend. I think it can go both ways. Someone like you, and possibly DF, couldn't see how pulling away from one love to work on another would work. Having HMA lean on someone else he LOVED while “dealing with my drama” would set off a cycle of insecurity I just flat wouldn't be able to deal with. The root issues that would bring up of fear and pain would be far too much for me to bear. I guess it's a fundamental difference between “people like you” and “people like me”. I would be devestated – but I'd have to leave.

You are upset because the relationship grew and therefore changed and you weren't expecting or wanting that.
But the nature of LIFE AND RELATIONSHIPS is that they continue to change. Always. We are creatures of change. Every single day parts of who we are die off and new and different parts are born. We are always changing. Who was are is never the same from one day to the next.

So if YOU love her and TRULY want what is best for your marriage-then you need to really make some peace with the reality that she is an individual FIRST and your wife second. Not your wife first and an individual second.

THEN you also need to accept that about yourself and about any other person who may or may not be involved in our dynamic.

Another place I see a fundamental difference. This statement is scary to me. I can understand HMA being my fiance second and an individual first – but I guess, I've learned that I can't handle not being primary. No way, no how. I'm trying to get my head around it, but it's just not gonna happen as far as I can see. lol The problem that happens, at least with me, is that say HMA and Anne grew closer and I kind of became either truly equal, or less than that. I couldn't handle it. I would drop an ultimatum too – either Anne goes, or I do. And I'd be damn solid in that. When you're not ready, you're not ready. I personally kind of think that if a REALLY SERIOUSLY poly person is with someone who is poly, but knows they will have insecurities – that the more poly person needs to be respectful. It's easier to slow something down than to force someone to speed things up, in my experience. I'm trying to understand why it sounds like there can be no compromise – you can't ask someone to just SLOW DOWN? Not stop, just um … put on the breaks and hit pause for a minute so everyone can get their heads together? That doesn't sound fair...

I dunno. I'm still trying to understand my feelings on the matter. I won't hijack ND's thread for it, lol. Maybe I should start one of my own to understand better. Your outlook has just been so helpful to me LR, I really want to try to understand.

[LovingRadiance]

[QUOTE=violet;10929]
If Anne hadn't backed off when HMA and I were going through a rough spot, and HMA had just tried to assure me that he didn't fall out of love with me, and leaned on Anne for support without respecting what I was going through – HMA would have found himself single. Or, rather, with only one girlfriend. I think it can go both ways. Someone like you, and possibly DF, couldn't see how pulling away from one love to work on another would work. Having HMA lean on someone else he LOVED while “dealing with my drama” would set off a cycle of insecurity I just flat wouldn't be able to deal with. The root issues that would bring up of fear and pain would be far too much for me to bear. I guess it's a fundamental difference between “people like you” and “people like me”. I would be devestated – but I'd have to leave.

[/yQUOTE]

I hear what you say.And I understand, because Maca did go off the deep end and he did leave. Got an apartment the works.

BUT that doesn't change the reality-those insecurities are HIS issues-not mine and HE is fully responsible for them, not me. I can love him, I can support him. But when you are stuck in an insecurity-you can not offer anyone else support, which means when he's caught up in his drama-he's NOT MY PARTNER. He's my JOB..

If I have to take care of him-I have to be able to rejuvenate SOMEWHERE, SOMEHOW. And he can't do it-because he's not even able to take care of himself-thus why those emotions are in control.

SO-the only RIGHT thing to do is to understand that when WE as people are not ok and can't offer our full, loving selves to another-particularly someone who we share a joint responsibility to care for one another with (like husband and wife do) then we MUST accept that they MUST continue to be cared for while supporting us through our "valley of the shadow of death" so to speak.

[LovingRadiance]

Another place I see a fundamental difference. This statement is scary to me. I can understand HMA being my fiance second and an individual first – but I guess, I've learned that I can't handle not being primary. No way, no how. I'm trying to get my head around it, but it's just not gonna happen as far as I can see. lol The problem that happens, at least with me, is that say HMA and Anne grew closer and I kind of became either truly equal, or less than that. I couldn't handle it. I would drop an ultimatum too – either Anne goes, or I do. And I'd be damn solid in that. When you're not ready, you're not ready. I personally kind of think that if a REALLY SERIOUSLY poly person is with someone who is poly, but knows they will have insecurities – that the more poly person needs to be respectful. It's easier to slow something down than to force someone to speed things up, in my experience. I'm trying to understand why it sounds like there can be no compromise – you can't ask someone to just SLOW DOWN? Not stop, just um … put on the breaks and hit pause for a minute so everyone can get their heads together? That doesn't sound fair...


Thoughts in random order--

1. Ultimatums are childish.

If a person has an issue-(insecurity or some specific thing they can not handle in a relationship) and that thing pops up. They have the RIGHT to ask the other person-is this something you NEED because I can't live with this **pick your term**. But when you make an ultimatum you are choosing to make the other person responsible for YOUR issue. That's childish. If you have an issue-it's YOUR issue to deal with.

I have needs/issues. Sure-if Maca chooses to get a girlfriend in the 16-19 year old category-I will leave. Because I inherently believe it is wrong. But I would still love him, we would still raise our kids as friends. I just can't sleep with a 30+ year old man who is having sex with a person I deem a child. BUT I would never say "her or me". Because THAT is making HIM take responsibility for MY terms. They are my terms, I take responsibility and ownership for them and if that situation comes up-I will just gently and kindly redesign our relationship to a more "proper fit" for my well-being.



2. Yes you can always ask-but you can't demand. Relationships between adults are based on the assumption that we are equals and as such no one person has a right to DEMAND anything from another.

3. How do you know it's easier to "slow down"? We have no way of knowing that OUR needs are EASIER or HARDER than someone else's. We are incapable of knowing the depth of someone else's needs-one of the weak points in our brains abilities. It's all perspective and in my experience when a person starts thinking that their perspective is "more right" then someone else's -the relationship is already doomed so the perspectives themselves become arbitrary.

4. I created a whole thread on the fact that insecure people need to stop acting like martyrs and start recognising that they are fully and completely responsible for their insecurities, all actions resulting from those insecurities AND the pain and damage they do to others on account of those actions. Yes-it is fair to ask someone IF they can make a compromise for your benefit.
BUT that has to be done side by side with the knowledge and acceptance that the answer may be no.
No one-absolutely no one should EVER compromise their TRUE self for another person. There are enough people in the world that there is no reason to do that. Loving someone does NOT mean that two people belong together as a couple. I have plenty of exboyfriends turned friends to prove that sometimes someone you love isn't a good "FIT" for you.

I'm the "more poly" person (one would think) because I asked for the poly dynamic to be added to our marriage. BUT that doesn't mean that my needs are more easily controlled or manipulated than Maca's. Some are, some are not.

I CAN (and did) agree to not adding anyone new. But I could not agree to "slow down" with GG. The reality is that the love was already there and he already lives with us. The relationship is already established and there is no "backing out" to make Maca more comfortable. I did agree not to kiss or make out with him in front of Maca for now because he's "getting used to it" BUT I can't (didnt and won't) promise "I just won't kiss him because it makes you uncomfortable" AND his request also demands that he allow me "private time" to be ABLE to be "me" in my other relationship that isn't "in his face". If he doesn't take responsbiilty to ensure my private time-then he will see it.

It's called compromise-yes his feeling matter and are VERY important and need tended. So are mine-JUST as important and in need of tending. No "one" is more important than the other just because one person is poly and one is less so or not....

That's like saying RP's feelings aren't priority because Mono is well.. mono.

No one here would say that-it's ridiculous.

EACH person's feelings ARE equally important.

I will put the disclaimer in that the above sentence I am presuming that we are talking about fully equal responsibility in the family. I agree with Mono that people who are less involved in the family have less of a say so. But that isn't the topic here.

[redpepper]

You really need to take a breath my friend. The poor woman will not be able to think if you keep carrying on the way you are. I understand you are frantic but your reaction to this is not making it easy for her and she may react by saying, "forget it, I'm done with you!" You are breaking your trust with her at this point, in my opinion. She trusts you to stand by her in tough times, when tough decisions need to be made. You are her best friend and need to act like one. This to me is what marriage is about, putting ourselves aside for one another so that we can be there in full attention, love, compassion and empathy. Regardless the issue.

With all due respect, if you want to keep her in your life, give her some breathing room. Cut the man some slack give him some room too and quite with the "he broke trust" thing! I don't see how he broke trust. He has just as much right to make sure he is okay as you do. He has invested in your wife now and things have changed. If you don't start going with it and figuring out what is behind these feelings you have for YOU, you will lose her because you're whining, storming around and ultimatums will not make her want to stay. She needs you to stand up and fight for the love you have and fight for yourself in it.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh. I'm not meaning it to be, it is meant to be a kick in the butt, because I would hate to see you lose everything.

I say it also out of what I would want as her in the same situation. I would need my man to be strong and fight for what we have regardless of the changes.

[redpepper]

My husband and Mono think I should clarify what "fight" means.

It means to me that you should be standing TOGETHER on this, not AGAINST one another. The issue is "separate" from both of you, not a part of you. The emotions you both feel are not "you," but part of "the issue." You know that you are good together because you married each other and have built a life together. You haven't always been walking around with these emotions. They don't reveal something fundamentally wrong with your relationship, they are aside from that.

Yes she needs to make some choices, but to do that it would be more helpful and to your benefit if you gave her and him space to think and come to the right decision for what is best for everyone. Hopefully thinking of the higher needs here, "what do I need?" and "is there a way I can fulfill those needs while others can fulfill theirs also?" "How can this situation benefit everyone?" "what boundaries and rules do we need to do that?"

Do you understand why this bothers you so much? It could be it has nothing to do with your wife being in love with someone else..... thinking about the core (as I said before) of the situation would be helpful. Not bandaging the thing with demanding she decide.

Okay, I will be more specific, did you have a picture in your mind of the boundaries you had, has this fallen outside of that? Did you talk about boundaries? Did she agree not to fall in love? Was it even discussed that she might? Did you discuss what to do about her falling in love ahead of time? Was there room for change and fluidity with these boundaries? What are the underlying feelings that make you want her to chose and why do you feel that way?

[LovingRadiance]

Good job explaining your meaning RP. I think you did a good job. And I agree with you 100%.
I wish I could meet your husband. The man really impresses me and I never spoke one word with him (mono impresses me too as do you!)

[redpepper]

He's always here, in the background,,,, gets really emotional about the forums, so he talks through me sometimes...

I got hit by a car tonight, so he is speaking through me a lot tonight as I sit with my head spinning. I'm doing my own fair share of whining tonight.

“Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.” Einstein quote he just thought might be useful in this thread....

[NightDragon]

Well I am leaving for Florida in just a few hours. I do appologize, I can't read everyones post right now. I'm to raw.

I will say, the poly relationship isn't what caused Dragonfly to want to leave me. I did! I came here through pain to talk about what I felt this site was about... Poly relations. What I did not say was...

Me and DF have had a unstable marriage for quite some time. The reason being is because I refused to see that there was anything wrong with me. I wouldn't see that I was depressed and codependent. I just blamed it on everything else. My job, other people, even DF. It wasn't till Monday that with a huge talk with a 3rd party, that something long ago has broken me and I have not dealt with it or any of the other things. I just boxed it up and said I'm stronger then that, stay in the fucking box and don't come out. Well I didn't see the sludge was leaking out the bottom and I was standing in it and becoming poisioned.

I'm not using this as an excuse. I hurt DF. I've been hurting DF for a while now. And I don't deserve her or her love. I do love her. She has been that one bright shining star out of my entire life and I don't want to loose her. Well maybe after I go, seek some theripy, get help, and heal myself. Maybe she can find it in her to still love me. Maybe even still want me. But now I must go.

All I can do is hope and take 1 step at a time.

1st step: get some help!

[redpepper]

Wow, what a brave first step to a better life. Good for you. Happiness is obtainable my friend. Withs a lot of hard work, ambition and self love. I hope you feel proud of this first step towards a brighter future. You should!

Lots of hugs and warm wishes along your way.

[Ceoli]

"Here let my son live here on our sofa and lets support him cause he moving here without a job, a vehicle, or any money."

For what it's worth, if you replace the word "son" with "daughter" that pretty much exactly describes what happened to me and the current situation I'm in (and that includes the state of Florida in that). It's not as bad as it seems.

[Mark1npt]

RP, you're explaining the "fight" was right on! We all have to fight together to make this lifestyle work for all. I know we have done our share, as you are well aware.

It now certainly appears that ND has other issues which need addressing. (which we all do at times), but my overiding concern in this whole mess is....."how can one enter into the poly life, without expecting ourselves or our spouse to fall in love with someone else?" Isn't that what polyamory is about? More loves? How can that be "out of bounds?"

[Ilove2men]

So, I think its time for me to step out of the shadows. I wanted to wait just a few more days actually before I did my update. My fiance and my friend and I are supposed to be meeting on saturday. Anyways, quick update, we are all taking baby steps towards a poly relationship.

I just had to comment on this because we went through something similar yesterday and I need to say my side of it. So my fiance springs the fact that he cannot accept that I love another man on me yesterday. He says that he can't accept it, but he wants me to be me. The thing about that is I love him dearly and I brought this into our home. I understand that in life and love sacrifices (if you want to keep that life and love) must be made when compromise cannot happen. My friend also understand how much my fiance means to me and said that if it ever comes to on or the other to choose my fiance. That he would make it and easy choice by cutting me off if need be.

So here we are at a point where no compromise can be made and my fiance hits me with the ultimatum. Him or Us. I should also mention that my fiance did not want my friend knowing about this conversation. So yes... Ultimatum. I choose my fiance because I love him and need him, because I know that my friend will always be a part of my life in some way, and because that's what my friend wants me to do. This happened while I was at work. my fiance dropped me to my knees and ripped out my heart and all at the same time telling me how much he loves me and is so grateful I chose him. I wasn't angry at him. I understood, but I'm trying not to cry at work... failing miserably. Trying to make everything seem okay to my friend because I didn't know how to break his heart and I sure as hell wasn't about to do it while he was at work. I felt like a part of me was slowly dying inside.
So my fiance takes it back when he realizes how much he has hurt me. He said that he thought he would feel better knowing that I chose him and only him, but it didn't. It hurt me, he hurt himself by hurting me, and all around it just wasn't what he expected to get out of it. I didn't make it all go away. I didn't give him the security he thought he would get... because nothing he can ever do will change the fact that I love my friend. Its something that is mine that he can't touch and it drives him crazy.

So about 30 minutes after he says our meetup is still on.... he goes back to feeding into his doubts. and at that point I get pissed.

My friend "isn't up to our afternoon talk" and all in all I feel like my feeling are not important to anyone and my abandonment issues from my childhood rear their ugly heads and start biting everyone in the ass. Im hurt and raw and exposed and everyone walked away as I lay in the detruction and the onlything that ran through my head was what the fuck just happened.
So I said and I quote "If I hear one more whaa whaa out of someone I am going to snap. And everyone and their emotions can kiss my ass till the morning." I needed time to lick my wounds and I still am not done. I'm taking todday to heal myself and reflect on my own issues because I feel like a piece of used toilet paper.

I say what happened yesterday not to hijack the thread, but to show what I went through before I start making my points because I think everyone needs to hear the poly person's side of this.

So my points are this, ultimatums are rash, and selfish and destructive to everyone involved. You run the risk of losing everything when you give one out. You make get what you wanted, but then you have to deal with the fact that you hurt the person you love and it could change your relationship forever. It can result in a lot of resentment towards you and you probably won't want to own the damage you have caused which will eventually destroy all trust.

Secondly, just because I am poly doesn't mean that I don't have rights as a human being. It doesn't mean I don't have feelings. I can't always be the strong one. I still need to be care for when I am having weak moments. I need to trust that the ones I care for will be there for me when I need them to. I need to know that if I am having a breakdown that my loves can put a pause on their emotions to take care of mine. Basically, I need to know I recieve what I give.

Another thing, You chose me. For better or worse. Well right now its worse and all I ask is that we see it to the otherside. we work on the issue at hand don't pile more wood on the fire. Don't add more hurt because you are hurting. fuck Poly. Its not about poly. You... the person I love should have enough respect for me to not be passive aggressive. to try to hurt me because you are hurting. no matter what the issue is. U wrongs do not make a right. When the going gets tough and you leave how can I trust you ever again? Me being who I am is not meant to hurt you. Im not doing it on purpose, but you intentionally trying to hurt me because you are hurting is vindictive and unacceptable.

Another point, I know that there will be a roller coaster of emotions. I know that it is my responsibility to ride that ride with you. To hold your hand and reassure you that its okay to feel the way you feel. But the ultimatum roller coaster is unfair and wrong. It ignores the issues and is a cowardly way out of the problem. and it doesn't work... because you might be able to stop my actions and wrap me up in a pretty bow and tie me to it.... but inside.... I still love him and nothing you do will ever change it and you know it.

So yeah, that's all I got for now. if its full of typos im sorry. Im writing this from my phone.

Also, I think I should mention an article that think is great. its on xeromag.com Jealousy and the broken refrigerator.

I hope no one is offended by my rant... I'm still licking my wounds at the moment.

Oh and as for the outcome. we are all talking about what happened and why... and the biggest issue is the fear of the unknown... and that's part of life. We are going to get through this. I have faith in our love... But if we don't I want to atleast be able to say that we didn't the best we could to make it work. I don't want to look back and see people intentionally destroying it because of fear and uncontrolled emotions.

[MonoVCPHG]

Ultimatums cannot work in these cases because they only have the potential to change how someone acts, not how they feel. Who wants to be with someone who is acting?? What it comes down to is the people offering the ultimatum simply need to make the hard decision for themselves. If you don't want to be there...get the fuck out.

I get it now...it is unfair to force someone to choose between two loves. It is ok to ask and present your reasons though. If the choice is not what you can be healthy in...leave; be an adult and simply fucking leave and find some one who wants to love the same way you do.

Each person has the right to change everything. If someone says it's done...it's done....no begging, whining or pleas to keep working at it. If some one needs something that precipitates that, then live with it...make your choices and accept the consequences...that's what grown ups do for fuck's sake.….and don't even pretend that you can have everything…get you head out of the clouds and be real.

If you are going to put an ultimatum out there be prepared to follow through. Don't tell me I'm going to bed without supper and then let me have something to eat because whatever I did, I'll fucking do it again because you don't follow through.

[LovingRadiance]

He's always here, in the background,,,, gets really emotional about the forums, so he talks through me sometimes...

I got hit by a car tonight, so he is speaking through me a lot tonight as I sit with my head spinning. I'm doing my own fair share of whining tonight.

“Problems cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.” Einstein quote he just thought might be useful in this thread....

Was that literal?????????????????????//

Are you ok?????????????

Tell him hi for me! Maca and I wonder about him ALL THE TIME and are always saying "i'd love to ask RP's husband...." Just all the things you and Mono say about him and the relationship between you all, we figure he must be a very intelligent, caring and deep person!

[LovingRadiance]

Well I am leaving for Florida in just a few hours. I do appologize, I can't read everyones post right now. I'm to raw.

I will say, the poly relationship isn't what caused Dragonfly to want to leave me. I did! I came here through pain to talk about what I felt this site was about... Poly relations. What I did not say was...

Me and DF have had a unstable marriage for quite some time. The reason being is because I refused to see that there was anything wrong with me. I wouldn't see that I was depressed and codependent. I just blamed it on everything else. My job, other people, even DF. It wasn't till Monday that with a huge talk with a 3rd party, that something long ago has broken me and I have not dealt with it or any of the other things. I just boxed it up and said I'm stronger then that, stay in the fucking box and don't come out. Well I didn't see the sludge was leaking out the bottom and I was standing in it and becoming poisioned.

I'm not using this as an excuse. I hurt DF. I've been hurting DF for a while now. And I don't deserve her or her love. I do love her. She has been that one bright shining star out of my entire life and I don't want to loose her. Well maybe after I go, seek some theripy, get help, and heal myself. Maybe she can find it in her to still love me. Maybe even still want me. But now I must go.

All I can do is hope and take 1 step at a time.

1st step: get some help!

Sweetie-that IS the first step. Read Maca's and my story. It's so possible to come a long way from that point. We've been there. Come back on and talk when you get where you are going.

[LovingRadiance]

Ultimatums cannot work in these cases because they only have the potential to change how someone acts, not how they feel. Who wants to be with someone who is acting?? What it comes down to is the people offering the ultimatum simply need to make the hard decision for themselves. If you don't want to be there...get the fuck out.

I get it now...it is unfair to force someone to choose between two loves. It is ok to ask and present your reasons though. If the choice is not what you can be healthy in...leave; be an adult and simply fucking leave and find some one who wants to love the same way you do.

Each person has the right to change everything. If someone says it's done...it's done....no begging, whining or pleas to keep working at it. If some one needs something that precipitates that, then live with it...make your choices and accept the consequences...that's what grown ups do for fuck's sake.….and don't even pretend that you can have everything…get you head out of the clouds and be real.

If you are going to put an ultimatum out there be prepared to follow through. Don't tell me I'm going to bed without supper and then let me have something to eat because whatever I did, I'll fucking do it again because you don't follow through.

Don't know why this concept is so difficult? It's so OBVIOUSLY not going to get a good outcome when an adult chooses to act like a spoiled child.

[MonoVCPHG]

It's so OBVIOUSLY not going to get a good outcome when an adult chooses to act like a spoiled child.

Here's the thing..I'm not sure which one is acting more like a spoiled child. I find the issuing of ultimatums unworkable but not being poly I don't understand the other side as well. They both need to make a choice as far as I can tell.

[LovingRadiance]

Mono-I agree. Maca and I talked aboutit last night. To me it's about owning your own issues.

If I say "I'm poly". You (general interested party) have a choice to make-do you want a poly person or no?

If I say "I'm poly so deal with it because you SAID you love me and if you REALLY DO then you have to deal with it." I'm acting like a child AND I'm full of shit. You CAN love someone and choose not to BE with them. I do and always will love a number of my exes. But loving them did NOTmake us compatible for any number of reasons.

That's why "coming out" to Maca was so hard. I finally had a way of expressing my inside self (did try over the years but failed over and over) and I KNEW that it was going to mean he had a choice to make-stay or go AND that I must RESPECT his choice and support it caringly-EVEN IF IT HURT ME.

If he left (leaves) it will break me in ways he has no way of understanding-because I can't find words to express them. But I love him-I don't want to hurt or destroy him and if leaving is what it takes for him to be whole-then I would have no moral choice but to support that decision.

Turn it around-if I am Mono and can't deal with someone who is poly-I have a choice stay or go. It's wrong of me to put MY issue on their shoulders and tell them to choose. I am the one with the issue about who they are. I need to take the bull by the horns and decide to go-RESPECTFULLY and with care and love in my actions.

Ok-off soapbox cause I could go forever and I HAVE to run on the treadmill today!

[MonoVCPHG]

To me it's about owning your own issues.

If I say "I'm poly". You (general interested party) have a choice to make-do you want a poly person or no?

If I say "I'm poly so deal with it because you SAID you love me and if you REALLY DO then you have to deal with it." I'm acting like a child AND I'm full of shit. You CAN love someone and choose not to BE with them.


Thank you for this. This needed to be said.

Now get on that tread mill!! Does Maca hold something out in front of you to keep you moving? Kinda like the horse and carrot thing ;)

[Ilove2men]

Not sure if any of this is directed towards my post, but what I mant by he chose me for better or worse is... I do expect him not to run in the opposite direction when and issue arises and he is unsure of what the issue was. I do expect him to see it to the otherside so there will be a healthy conclusion. Don't just give up. Don't hide behind an ultimatum. This is me... You've known me for years... don't start treating me like a stranger.

What I mean by see it to the other side is, figure out what the real issue is and make a decision on the real issue.

His issue is the fear of the unknown. He doesn't know what the dynamics of our lives will be. No one does. Not that he can't accept that I love another man. (He came to this last night) He fed into his fear and went for what he thought was an easy fix.

The fact is, we have grown closer and closer everyday. He loves how this whole thing has freed me... But it doesn't make it any less scary for him.

If we didnt have a commitment to each other to see it through, then we would all be heart broken at this very moment. but because we stayed we know what caused it.

Now the day may come when what he first said.. he can't accept that I am poly and that's the real issue then so be it. I don't believe in break ups being ugly and hurtful. there needs to be resolution and understanding. So that in the end everyone is left standing. It should be done with respect and love and concern for all parties involed. Don't get me wrong it will hurt like hell, but as least we can all respect how we handled it at the end of the day. That we did our best.

[MonoVCPHG]

Not sure if any of this is directed towards my post,
.


Your post just made things clearer in my own mind. I should have thanked you for that actually. Nothing negative, all good :)

[HappiestManAlive]

In every relationship I've ever had - be it friends, girlfriends, business partners, whatever - it has been understood very quickly what my policy is regarding ultimatums. It is very simple: They who issue the ultimatum, loses it. You hand me a "her or me" ultimatum, and it's her, no agonizing, no bullshit, you made the decidio for me the moment you issued the ultimatum.

I never issue them and I never will. I learned that lesson early in life.

NighDragon - I wish we could have not missed each other's texts last night. I am glad to hear you are taking steps and getting help, and that you have a support network in place. I also think that rash decisions made while everyone i hurting are seldom made correctly. Between myself and my friends, I was going to find you aplace and access to a vehicle so you would have a few days or weeks to think things through and so could she, before making a cross-country decision. I wish we could have discussed that option. I just met you, but I dig ya' man, something about you I just like, lol. We've talked twice and I think of you like I do my dearest friends - and man, we look out for each other big time. I hop all works out, PLEASE stay in touch, and know that you are one of the coolest people I know.

[rolypoly]

I'm still feeling new to this forum and a bit timid about offering advice to others who probably have more experience than me. But, I can relate a bit to what you are going through Night Dragon.

Last year, I moved in with a man. When he and I met, he was sleeping with a woman. The three of us hooked up and she stayed lovers to us both. She's gay, in a relationship with a woman but likes to sleep with men. There is no romance, but a lot of care between her and her friends/lovers.

Very soon after I moved in with him, he crashed. No idea how to describe it. He'd sleep 16 hours + at a time. Stopped going to school. Couldn't help out with much of anything. Some days, couldn't form complete sentences. He'd stumble on a word and then get upset because it wouldn't come out making sense. He'd sit against the wall with a mean, evil expression on his face, as if he was ready to go out and murder someone. It scared me!!

He was needing the kind of support I was not able to give - especially since I'd moved to a completely new place, didn't have a support network of my own and had actually expected to lean on him a bit to settle in.

He would compare me to our lover, saying literally, "Why can't you be more like 'D'?". Well, hon, she's not in love with you, first of all. Second, she doesn't live with you. Third, you are not projecting major, intense emotional and psychological stuff onto her. And fourth, I do say the things that you are requesting of me, (the ones that she says), but you react completely differently to me when I say them.

So... all that to say... sometimes our needs just can't be met by some people. And often not because of the person, but because of the dynamics and triggers that come up between people.

Anyway, I think I'm going a bit OT, but I just wanted to say that on some level, I understand. And I hope things settle into a good place for all three of you.

roly

[Ilove2men]

Ahh horrible horrible typos. I'm so sorry yall!

P.S. Thanks Mono.

[redpepper]

Wow, roly' that's some depression! What happened to him?

Ilovetwomen, you rock. What you said and how you handled yourself are what I would of done. Thank you for summing up so well. You can figure out what happens next with the attitude you have.

It sounds like you put the ball back in his court and have made him decide. If he feels the need to ask for an ultimatum then what he is really saying is that he needs to decide between you or being alone again. You are who you are. You can't be anything else and you are at your best when you are being you.

[MonoVCPHG]

If he feels the need to ask for an ultimatum then what he is really saying is that he needs to decide between you or being alone again.

Exactly!! So smart :)

[rolypoly]

Redpepper, you got hit by a car??? Oh dear, I'm glad you're ok!

I think it was some form of Post-Traumatic Stress or something. I honestly don't know. It felt at the time more like a huge self-sabotage because he didn't actually want the responsibility of being in a relationship.

geez, I love how honest people are here! (I don't do well with ultimatums either. ) :)

[Ilove2men]

Thanks Redpepper. That means a lot coming from you. I have lurked since my original post. Soaking up as much as I can and I have found great advice and comfort in everything You, mono, and your husband have said. You give me hope for the future.

[LovingRadiance]

In every relationship I've ever had - be it friends, girlfriends, business partners, whatever - it has been understood very quickly what my policy is regarding ultimatums. It is very simple: They who issue the ultimatum, loses it. You hand me a "her or me" ultimatum, and it's her, no agonizing, no bullshit, you made the decidio for me the moment you issued the ultimatum.

I never issue them and I never will. I learned that lesson early in life.



Exactly my policy-and my point. I take ultimatums seriously-if you are seriously that childish-you are too childish for me. End of topic.

It's not personal-it's life to me. I require myself to meet a higher standard, so I expect that those who are attracted to being around me will as well. If they won't that's ok-but they won't be around me. I won't give them an ultimatum, I'll leave.

Is it maybe an age thing figuring this concept out? Not to be rude or crass. Just wondering. .....

[redpepper]

What do you mean and age thing LR? A maturity thing in terms of communicating and knowing oneself? Or just maturity in dealing with ones stuff? That can denote a certain age sometimes I guess. Is that what you mean?

[LovingRadiance]

What do you mean and age thing LR? A maturity thing in terms of communicating and knowing oneself? Or just maturity in dealing with ones stuff? That can denote a certain age sometimes I guess. Is that what you mean?

I'm not exactly sure what I mean. :eek:

I guess I'm wondering if maybe it simply takes a certain amount of time before one has a full understanding of themself, their rights, their responsibiities etc.

OBVIOUSLY there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule. But I was thinking maybe it's an age thing in general?

I don't know. Maybe. I was kind of thinking out loud. :confused:

I was thinking about the kids (mine). They tend to be very self-centered when they are 2,3 years old, some kids through 4,5. But as they gain age they tend to start being more able to consider other people's needs/feelings.

I was thinking maybe that it takes a certain amount of time before one grasps that they don't have the innate right to demand (in terms of ultimatums I thought of this) others behave in a specific way.....

[NeonKaos]

I'm not exactly sure what I mean. :eek:

I guess I'm wondering if maybe it simply takes a certain amount of time before one has a full understanding of themself, their rights, their responsibiities etc.

OBVIOUSLY there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule. But I was thinking maybe it's an age thing in general?




When I was in my 20's, I thought that statements like this were pretty condescending and a bit offensive, but as I get older, I realize that there is a certain amount of truth in it that just cannot be appreciated until you arrive at that point.

[redpepper]

I wrote in another thread about stages of children that I learned in our parenting class a couple of weeks ago. I was saying that age 21 (thereabouts) is actually the last stage of a child where they realize they are a "me" just like everyone else.

Sometimes people get stuck at different stages if their is a trauma of some kind that forces them to move into the next stage without fully experiencing the stage that they are at. They miss a stage of self development essentially and it repeats in adulthood. I suspect that this is what happens to some people when they give ultimatums.... perhaps they are simply unable to empathize with their partners because they have not gone through the stage at 6, or whatever, where they learned what happens when they demand attention from others or whatever.... am I making sense... *yawn* too early :o

Anyway *getting it together* in this case therapy revolving around getting the trauma worked out would move them out of being stuck in that stage.

[Ilove2men]

Which thread is that RP? I would love to read it.

[rolypoly]

I'm getting confused between rp=redpepper and rp=rolypoly. :p

[redpepper]

Haha! I think you are roly and I'm RP. I used to be red, but we have a Redsirren too and she became Red. Confusing I know. I get confused when people refer to monogamous as Mono. I wish they would not capitalize it, as in mono, so I don't think its my life love, Mono.

Which reminds me, Mono used to call me Lilo. As in Life Love. He calls me that in person, but not so much on here any more.
So that thread? I can't remember what it was and can't find it very well on my phone, but it was one that Maca of LR started. They would know.

Help? Anyone?

[MonoVCPHG]

I don't remember that thread at all...Lilo :D

[rolypoly]

I'm getting confused between rp=redpepper and rp=rolypoly. :p

[Ilove2men]

Sorry, I meant RedPepper.

[LovingRadiance]

When I was in my 20's, I thought that statements like this were pretty condescending and a bit offensive, but as I get older, I realize that there is a certain amount of truth in it that just cannot be appreciated until you arrive at that point.

Me too. I really HATED that-especially since I was on my own from 14 on. Between that and having a kid at 16 (and doing a damn good job raising her if I say so myself).

But as I go along (and partly due to raising these kids and seeing their understanding change with age too) I am starting to think that some things (not all) in life simply take TIME or repeated exposure to start fully understanding...

I don't know-it was just a thought as I was reading and writing and like I said-I was thinking aloud.

I'm really doing a LOT of growing and thinking and expanding my mind and heart right now. So some days I may make little or no sense because it takes a week to figure out. Bare with me! ;)

[Ilove2men]

I can relate to this as well. I've been on my own since early teens as well. I always thought that because I was forced into adulthood that it aged me. But the reality is, it just taught me survival skills. Now, I will point out that I'm still in my 20's but I understand now that life experience does not equal maturity. Understanding those experiences for what they are does. I have also learned that I am a responsible loyal, no man left behind kind of person and that in the face of hard times I have the strength and adapability to stand when my loved ones cannot. I may not have the knowledge (because I've learned I don't know everything teehee) but I adapt and learn as I go. I also know, that my loved ones still see me as 14 because physically I have never grown since then. yep... I'm a shorty. And because of this no matter how old I get they will always want to protect lil ole me. It used to aggrivate me and now I embrace it. It comes from love and I kinda like it now. I had to grow up so fast that... its kinda nice being babied. I don't take it as an insult anymore and I'm in no rush to prove my maturity level. I have faith that the person I am is enough for now. I think people find offense to it because they see it as being bad or someone viewing them as less than. My daughter shocks me with her pearls of wisdom (she is 4.) Good hearts come in all ages and so does wisdom. One should be proud of the person they are at the age they are and not be so sensitive.