Triad Equality [Archive] - Polyamory.com Forum

Ceoli

10-28-2009, 10:31 PM

Perhaps a Balance is what you striving for. Things should be balanced. That all envoled should have balance. I dont think that Things like taking off wedding rings.. A rg is a sign of commitment. Sure its fair for you to be married... You and HMA made the Choice to make that Commitment. Should you decide to make a simmilar/equivelant commitment to Anne in the future then Perhaps you can wear another ring or item to signify that? Seems fair to me.

The trouble is that with that kind of commitment, it also comes with a lot of privilege and legal rights that would not be afforded to the person who isn't in the marriage. I'm not saying this is Violet's specific situation, but if a third is joining a married couple in a lifetime commitment, is it fair for that person to have to give up their ability to have spousal benefits? Or to have the legal protections of marriage where kids are concerned?

I'm not saying there right and wrong answers to this, but there are certainly things to be considered.

violet

10-28-2009, 10:34 PM

The trouble is that with that kind of commitment, it also comes with a lot of privilege and legal rights that would not be afforded to the person who isn't in the marriage. I'm not saying this is Violet's specific situation, but if a third is joining a married couple in a lifetime commitment, is it fair for that person to have to give up their ability to have spousal benefits? Or to have the legal protections of marriage where kids are concerned?

I'm not saying there right and wrong answers to this, but there are certainly things to be considered.

And see, let's take Anne for example. She wants kids, I don't. Why should I have the support of the legal system when I don't want kids and she does? To be fair, she should get that support. But, to be fair to ME - I was here first, and he asked me to marry him first. I can consider her feelings, and consider what she needs - but it's still just a matter of MEH. Does that make any sense? :confused:

Ceoli

10-28-2009, 10:36 PM

Yeah, it makes sense and yeah, it's a pretty hard sucky situation to be in.

greenearthal

10-28-2009, 11:05 PM

If there was a thing that was very important to me and where I'm trying to go in life, and then someone told me they could get it for me or take me there, and then that destination started coming into view for me, and then the person said "Hey, would you like to go somewhere else and totally forget all about that place?" I would be pretty angry about that.

It sounds like the three of you have three different views on where to go and how to get there. So different, in fact, that you need to do a lot more communicating and compromising. Communicating and compromising can be very enjoyable. Even when someone has to sacrifice something for the benefit of someone else.

I hope you all get to talk it out some more. I hope you all assume good intentions. I get the sense that HMA is coming from a very genuine and well meaning place in an attempt to help everyone have what they need to thrive. We don't really have a legal system that tries to facilitate that in any way where polyamory and marriage are concerned. But polyamorous couples have figured it out in the past. And you all seem pretty smart and determined.

Still rooting for you all.

LovingRadiance

10-28-2009, 11:56 PM

I didn't read the whole thread-but wanted to answer your question Violet-from my perspective.

I wear more than one ring.

I have one, my engagement ring which is also Maca and I's son's birthstone. I won't remove it for anyone.

One that symbolizes my MARRIAGE AND LOVE and history (too full to elaborate) to/for/with Maca. I would NEVER remove it for another, even if he dies-it's MY RING and symbolizes a part of MY life and MY heart. It's not even HIS to say I must remove, if he divorces me I will continue to wear it and he can be damned. I love him even if he left me that won't change.

I also wear a ring for GreenGecko. It symbolizes my love for him and my memory of our lost child. I don't remove it for anyone either.

I wear a ring with my birthstone and my friend (male who is not my lover) S's birthstone as a memory/commitment to our 30+ year friendship. I don't remove it for ANYONE.

I wear my mothers ring which has my daughter, stepson, godson, son, youngest daughter, my own, Maca's and GreenGecko's birthstones on it.
It symbolizes my love and devotion to all of those people and I don't remove it for anyone either....

No offense HMA, but if Maca told me that I had to remove ANY of the rings that meant something to me I would tell him where to get off. I love him, but these are MY symbols and ways of holding true to myself, not his.

Maca wears one ring, our wedding ring. If he asked to wear one for someone else I might raise an eyebrow-but it's his hand. He plans to get the 3 geckos tattoo'd to his back (as does GreenGecko) as a symbol of their growth, learning and commitment to our family. At this point, I don't. But that's cool for them.

GreenGecko wears one ring right and two necklaces.

It's really a personal choice and decision. For financial purposes it might mean getting a cheaper ring or waiting longer for a second-but wedding rings aren't practical in the first place. They are symbolic. It's about comfort.

Maca wears his ring (as does GreenGecko) 24/7. I on the other hand only wear mine when I leave the house because my fingers swell.

Don't fight over impracticalities-if it means something to wear two, wear two. Not everyone has to!;)

Sunshinegrl

10-29-2009, 12:00 AM

The trouble is that with that kind of commitment, it also comes with a lot of privilege and legal rights that would not be afforded to the person who isn't in the marriage. I'm not saying this is Violet's specific situation, but if a third is joining a married couple in a lifetime commitment, is it fair for that person to have to give up their ability to have spousal benefits? Or to have the legal protections of marriage where kids are concerned?

I'm not saying there right and wrong answers to this, but there are certainly things to be considered.

Ok then, so If Anne and HMA Decide to have children..That legal binds them Regardless. That is how the law sees that. To me that itself is a HUGE sign of commitment. So Why Should Violet not have that ( commitment) too. REGARDLESS of her desire not to have children. HMA and Her have/will make the Commitment to be husband and Wife. Legal Documentation ( legal wills and guardianship papers) can be drawn up to provide the same level of commitment to The Children and/or Anne that may or may not come of that relationship. Yeah Its a screwy way to look at it Marriage V Children. But HMA Obviously still desires to Marry Violet and vice versa. JMO.

NeonKaos

10-29-2009, 12:05 AM

ImaginaryIllusion

10-29-2009, 12:06 AM

All of this reminds me of a certain thread from a while back... I think it was this one:
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=746
where you will read:
This commitment to remain open has lead me to some unexpected places, including this relationship I'm now having with a married couple. We've approached it slowly and with little pressure on each other and allowed it to grow into whatever it would be, not some preconceived notion that any of us may have had.

There's also another item that came up about marriage in the poly context in a Yahoo group...which I'll cross quote here...it's not going to answer the question posed by the OP...but it should provide something to chew on.

From Shamus (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vanpoly/message/21174):
Much of the traditional in marriage ceremony should go. You cannot pledge faithfulness in the future, because you only own the present, and can affect a small amount of the future.You should not say, "Whither-soever Thou goest, There will I follow Thee"

In a nutshell, I now think that if we are polyamorists successfully, we have to redefine lover and relationship. We must not depend upon and need each other, we should not even need each other. Wanting each other is fine, but needing is codependent. We are not looking for our destiny, because the future is worked out one day at a time in the present.

I am happy with my marriage, but I don't really think any more than marriages are necessary in the poly world. We are taking a monogamous ceremony and trying to adapt it to have meaning in a poly world. That is like taking two jigsaw pieces that "fit together" and trying to find others that fit in the same way. It would be better to be "so whole in myself" that I can live beside anyone who means me no harm, and live with anyone who gives me joy or just pleasure.
I should clarify something about this, in that the post was not strictly about marriage or poly, but also about existentialist philosophy.

Sunshinegrl

10-29-2009, 12:07 AM

I dont think Of my Marriage as my ring at all. To Me its Symbol of that commitment I made. That's why its important to me.

Ceoli

10-29-2009, 12:10 AM

I'm not saying that anyone shouldn't have one thing or should have another. I'm just laying out there what issues can arise. Here in the US, the person who isn't married in the arrangement will always be at a legal disadvantage. For some people, this isn't an issue, for others, it is. Just sayin....

violet

10-29-2009, 12:19 AM

I dont think Of my Marriage as my ring at all. To Me its Symbol of that commitment I made. That's why its important to me.

This is very much how I feel. I don't think that my ring is my ENTIRE MARRIAGE at all. I am, however, HUGE on symbolism. In fact, the idea of getting 3 rings for HMA, Anne, and I to wear was MY idea in the first place! It was a SYMBOL of our commitment to one another. It doesn't even have to be a ring. It could be a necklace, a tattoo, anything.

My ring is a symbol of the promise made to marry me, and when I have a wedding ring, it's a symbol of the vows I took. That symbolism is VERY important to me.

All of this reminds me of a certain thread from a while back... I think it was this one:
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=746
where you will read:

There's also another item that came up about marriage in the poly context in a Yahoo group...which I'll cross quote here...it's not going to answer the question posed by the OP...but it should provide something to chew on.[quote]

I saw that thread. We aren't trying - anymore, anyway, lol - to force our relationship with Anne into a form it wasn't meant to take. However, there are some things I'm just sort of unwilling to let happen. If our relationship with Anne is going to "grow" HMA and I's relationship apart, or make it take a different path, that isn't what I signed up for. We are all here to enhance one another's lives - not to grow people apart.

[quote]From Shamus (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vanpoly/message/21174):

I should clarify something about this, in that the post was not strictly about marriage or poly, but also about existentialist philosophy.

This is very much how Anne thinks. I don't. I can get my head around that way of thinking, but I don't agree with it at all. Especially the way of thinking that polyamory and monogamy are so different. In my mind, they aren't. Our triad is made of 6 separate but complementary monogamous relationships, as far as I'm concerned. Each of us as a person having a "monogamous" relationship with the other. I explained it to HMA last night, and it's a REALLY complicated way of thinking - but it's just how I'm wired. lol It's tough to get out in a concise manner. I'm not even gonna try any further than I have. :) Suffice it to say that polyamory didn't "reconfigure" the way I view love or relationships. At all. I definitely appreciate the input, and because it SO clearly defines how Anne seems to think, it gives me something to talk about with her. Maybe we'll understand one another better!

Sunshinegrl

10-29-2009, 12:25 AM

Perhaps not intentionally. To me it sounds like you think it IS a case of All or none when it comes to "marriage". To me it sounds like that you think that Violet is wrong/inconsiderate for wanting that symbol of commitment.My thoughts are commitment is only as good as the People involved..People walk away from Children and marriages everyday. I would think that if HMA and Anne decided to have children together that would be a huge sign of commitment. Choosing to have a child with someone it a freaking huge commitment. As big a step as making the commitment to marry someone IMO.

Sunshinegrl

10-29-2009, 12:31 AM

This is very much how I feel. I don't think that my ring is my ENTIRE MARRIAGE at all. I am, however, HUGE on symbolism. In fact, the idea of getting 3 rings for HMA, Anne, and I to wear was MY idea in the first place! It was a SYMBOL of our commitment to one another. It doesn't even have to be a ring. It could be a necklace, a tattoo, anything.

My ring is a symbol of the promise made to marry me, and when I have a wedding ring, it's a symbol of the vows I took. That symbolism is VERY important to me.

Me too. 100%

This is very much how Anne thinks. I don't. I can get my head around that way of thinking, but I don't agree with it at all. Especially the way of thinking that polyamory and monogamy are so different. In my mind, they aren't. Our triad is made of 6 separate but complementary monogamous relationships, as far as I'm concerned. Each of us as a person having a "monogamous" relationship with the other. I explained it to HMA last night, and it's a REALLY complicated way of thinking - but it's just how I'm wired. lol It's tough to get out in a concise manner. I'm not even gonna try any further than I have. :) Suffice it to say that polyamory didn't "reconfigure" the way I view love or relationships. At all. I definitely appreciate the input, and because it SO clearly defines how Anne seems to think, it gives me something to talk about with her. Maybe we'll understand one another better!

Again this. Perhaps I am Monogamously wired. And I was just lucky to love two people. Cause I dont seem to see things the way some others do... But Maybe its just the label I don't fit.

Ceoli

10-29-2009, 12:35 AM

To me it sounds like you think it IS a case of All or none when it comes to "marriage". To me it sounds like that you think that Violet is wrong/inconsiderate for wanting that symbol of commitment.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from, especially since I said specifically that there aren't any right or wrong answers in this but things to consider. I never laid out an all or nothing case either. I haven't spoken at all about commitment levels or symbols in this thread. I've merely brought up the legal disadvantage that can exist in triads. I'm just laying out some realities, not judgments. I get the sense that you have a problem with my posts in general, but that doesn't need to take up this thread.

Sunshinegrl

10-29-2009, 12:57 AM

Honestly ..Its because all your considering in that post are the legal remifications. Which as I pointed out can be very easily solved.

When it comes to commitment and the symbol of said commitment, Legalities are irrelevent. Think of it from Vi's point of vew. HMA asked her to be his wife. Commitment number one. When they get married that commitment is replaced by the commitment they make in those vows. INSPITE of the LEGAL commitment they make an emotional commitment to each other. When you chose to have children with someone its a emotional and physical commitment for life. The big picture.

Ceoli

10-29-2009, 01:06 AM

Honestly ..Its because all your considering in that post are the legal remifications. Which as I pointed out can be very easily solved.

Actually, no. At first I talked about the possibility of letting go of the idea of equal. Then the marriage was brought up again, at which point I pointed out another perspective around that. And those legalities aren't easily solved for everybody.

it comes to commitment and the symbol of said commitment, Legalities are irrelevent. Think of it from Vi's point of vew. HMA asked her to be his wife. Commitment number one. When they get married that commitment is replaced by the commitment they make in those vows. INSPITE of the LEGAL commitment they make an emotional commitment to each other. When you chose to have children with someone its a emotional and physical commitment for life. The big picture.

Again, I'm not downplaying any piece of the emotional commitment by talking about the legal issues. I'm also not dismissing Violet's point of view in this. Bringing up another side to it does not equal invalidating her side. That's part of looking at the big picture. And yes, legal commitment and emotional commitment are two different things, I've never disputed that. But try telling a same sex couple struggling in a system that doesn't allow them the privileges of marriage that the legalities are irrelevant. Looking at the big picture does not mean dismissing the little things that can be issues.

Sunshinegrl

10-29-2009, 01:27 AM

Actually, no. At first I talked about the possibility of letting go of the idea of equal. Then the marriage was brought up again, at which point I pointed out another perspective around that. And those legalities aren't easily solved for everybody.

Yes and spoke about being Fair. Unfortunately, As you pointed out there is no fairness in the legal constitution that is marriage. Sucks but thats how it is. To me its a personal thing I guess. One commitment and One commitment. To Different Commitments BOTH very important. Not easy but when you make a commitment you do what you need to make it work. Big Picture. Life isn't always fair and equal. Nothing is. You do what works for you and those you love.

The SYMBOL of a wedding ring is important to some. Not all. I think its a personal thing. And I think that voicing those feelings to everyone involved and disscussing why its important to you is the best way to achieve balance.

Ceoli

10-29-2009, 01:32 AM

The SYMBOL of a wedding ring is important to some. Not all. I think its a personal thing. And I think that voicing those feelings to everyone involved and disscussing why its important to you is the best way to achieve balance.

*sigh* I honestly don't think you're hearing what I'm saying. And I shouldn't have spent this much of the thread clarifying what I'm saying and defending against reactions to things I'm *not* saying.

I'm done with this part of the conversation.

Sunshinegrl

10-29-2009, 01:41 AM

You and Me both.

LovingRadiance

10-29-2009, 05:12 AM

I give you this:

I don't wear a ring. Steve and I don't even HAVE rings.

It freaks some people out.

Our marriage is a piece of paper. It's a legal thing, a social contract that says we are each other's closest relative by choice.

Our relationship is neither a piece of jewelry nor a piece of paper.

It boggles my mind the way a lot of women think that their ring IS their marriage, and when they lose their ring, it's like the end of the world as we know it.

I think there is far too much emphasis placed on rings and weddings, very much like sex can focus too much on orgasms.

That's enough from me for now.

I hope you folks can work it out.

On that note-if I lost the rings-that wouldn't send me into a tailspin.

I just can't stand being told what to do about something as trivial as what I choose to wear.. or not wear.

Interestingly enough as I don't wear my rings at home and I don't wear them to work out-it tends to be only once every week or two for a few hours (out for dinner or out on a date or something) that I wear mine. But I keep them in a special place.

Maca on the other hand-he's VERY anal about his ring. It's on his hand ALL the time and it means a LOT to him. ;)

Sunshinegrl

10-29-2009, 06:14 AM

Maca on the other hand-he's VERY anal about his ring. It's on his hand ALL the time and it means a LOT to him. ;)

Me too. Even losing over a hundred pounds..Its miles too big. I wear a different ring to keep it from slipping off.

sweetie

10-29-2009, 07:39 AM

Both Sea and I are sitting here reading your post. Our hearts are breaking for you. Marriage is a huge committment. No... wearing a ring on your left hand doesn't automatically symbolize that committment, but damn if it isn't a reason you wear it. None of the three of us wear wedding bands. Sea and Tommy are married, but neither wear a ring. This summer we decided to have three rings, and our own vows. Those rings are worn on our right hands. Our claddagh's symbolize, love, loyality and friendship. This fall we had a really bad falling out, Tommy took off his ring. For him this ring we all share, was so much more then just friendship, love and loyalty.

Sweetie speaking here: If Sea and Tommy were to wear wedding rings, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If Tommy told Sea she had to take her ring off, because we are now a three... he wouldn't go to sleep and wake up. He wouldn't have to worry about Sea. He would have to worry about me. A wedding ring on your left hand is connected to your heart. It is a circle with no end. It symbolizes marriage. It's supposed to. The two of them wearing a ring on their left hand, takes nothing away from the rings we wear on the right. That's why we are a three. All three together. Loving each other. As a wedding ring shows love between a husband and wife, the claddagh we wear on the right, shows the love we share for each other.

Sea speaking here: Tommy and I haven't worn our wedding rings for many years. That says nothing for our love for each other. We know what our love for each other is, and a ring doesn't say it all. We have stopped wearing our rings for totally different reasons. (Weight lifting crushes them...etc) Our love is no less then it ever was. Our claddagh rings, on the other hand, don't mean any more or less to us, they have just taken us to a new chapter in our lives. Our love for one another (Tommy and I) has not diminished in any way. The rings between the three of us symbolizes the here and now, for me, the marriage vows have been superceded ( by choice ) We are three, plain and simple, we have three rings, three hearts, and now...three times the love!

Violet, you deserve to have your wedding ring, HMA is marrying you! If you want a ring that symbolizes your triad, then by all means you should have one, but that shouldn't take away from that ring that you wear on your left hand that is connected to your heart. A ring on the right hand, also connects to your heart, just by a different route!

Wearing it on your right takes away from no-one, it just shows the committment to all three.

Ceoli

10-29-2009, 08:02 PM

I'm kind of wondering...what is this more about for you, Violet? Is this more about the ring or is this about the strain of trying to keep an "equal" dynamic where there may not be one?

MonoVCPHG

10-29-2009, 08:40 PM

IMO Violet has every right to be pissed about the idea of taking her ring off. By joining HMA in a marriage she is in fact committing more to the relationship. Anne will not be tied to him in any other way than emotional at least initialy. They may be loved equally but the level of "real life", day to day integration, and legally functioning commitment is greater for Violet.

There is an aspect of adulthood that seems to be missing when discussing equality and levels of commitment in a lot of these threads.
Adults build unions that are not only based on loving emotion. They build them on paying taxes, maintaining households, creating retirement plans, and mowing the fucking lawn. Real life shit. It's great to have relationships based on dating, intimacy, sex and common interests…but it is the ones that hold up to the day to day stuff that embody commitment, dedication and sustainability.

That doesn't make other relationships not worth pursuing or any less rewarding in some ways. But it makes them different.

Value in anything is generally a reflection of what is put into the equation. Why should this be any different when dealing with romantic relationships?

If it is a visible disparity that HMA is concerned about, get Anne a ring too. Don't water down the symbols of Violet's marriage; elevate the symbols of Anne's commitment to HMA and her.

Sunshinegrl

10-29-2009, 09:29 PM

imo violet has every right to be pissed about the idea of taking her ring off. By joining hma in a marriage she is in fact committing more to the relationship. Anne will not be tied to him in any other way than emotional at least initialy. They may be loved equally but the level of "real life", day to day integration, and legally functioning commitment is greater for violet.

There is an aspect of adulthood that seems to be missing when discussing equality and levels of commitment in a lot of these threads.
Adults build unions that are not only based on loving emotion. They build them on paying taxes, maintaining households, creating retirement plans, and mowing the fucking lawn. Real life shit. It's great to have relationships based on dating, intimacy, sex and common interests…but it is the ones that hold up to the day to day stuff that embody commitment, dedication and sustainability.

That doesn't make other relationships not worth pursuing or any less rewarding in some ways. But it makes them different.

Value in anything is generally a reflection of what is put into the equation. Why should this be any different when dealing with romantic relationships?

If it is a visible disparity that hma is concerned about, get anne a ring too. Don't water down the symbols of violet's marriage; elevate the symbols of anne's commitment to hma and her.

this!

Ceoli

10-30-2009, 12:19 AM

There is an aspect of adulthood that seems to be missing when discussing equality and levels of commitment in a lot of these threads.
Adults build unions that are not only based on loving emotion. They build them on paying taxes, maintaining households, creating retirement plans, and mowing the fucking lawn. Real life shit. It's great to have relationships based on dating, intimacy, sex and common interests…but it is the ones that hold up to the day to day stuff that embody commitment, dedication and sustainability.

I agree with this, which is why I brought up the legalities of marriage in the first place. So the question is: In a long term functioning committed triad, must that level of commitment only be limited to being between two members of the triad? Must there always be a third one out in such a situation?

I don't know the answer to that. I do know that if I was approaching a long term triad arrangement, I would certainly want to have access to that kind of commitment. Perhaps Anne doesn't want that level of commitment. Perhaps she does want it but doesn't feel she can have it so she's not committing fully. I honestly don't know what her level of commitment is here because her's is the only voice that hasn't been heard in this debate.

Violet has every right to see through the commitment of marriage that she and HMA are embarking on. She has every right to want to keep her ring on as a symbol of that huge part of her life that she's giving over to HMA. But if that is indeed what she wants, then that would seem to be at odds with trying to have another equal partner to build a triad with.

Do I think there's anything wrong with that? No. Perhaps the triad isn't meant to be equal...I have no idea. That type of arrangement is a happy arrangement that exists for many people. However, since it does seem to be a source of conflict as it's been written here, then it would also suggest that it might not be happy for all involved. But again, I don't know because not all parts of this have been heard. So before anyone jumps down my throat for it, I'm only offering a perspective and that's it.

Sunshinegrl

10-30-2009, 01:38 AM

Triad Equality

<snip>

(As far as the Anne ready to commit, there's been some talk about opening the relationship. Anne wants to fuck other guys. Not add them to the relationship, just have FWB. But she doesn't really want HMA to see other women, or me to do so either. She said maybe she'd be okay with it if HMA let her fuck other men, but SHE was the one at the beginning who said she wanted it to be a closed relationship. Despite that she was still seeing someone who had NO idea about us, and even after she told us she was breaking it off with him, knowing full well we were uncomfortable with her fucking other people – and knowing we weren't allowed that freedom, she flew to Cali and fucked him. Thanks, Anne. I'm still miffed. So there's been some talk about giving her what she needs and letting her spread her wings – but because of what all three of us, not just HMA and I, want out of a relationship, letting her do so and instead of her being equal, have her be secondary for a while until she's ready and done her thing. So yeah.)

This was added to the original post yesterday. Maybe it will answer some of that For you.

Ceoli

10-30-2009, 01:44 AM

This was added to the original post yesterday. Maybe it will answer some of that For you.

No it doesn't because that is somebody speaking *for* Anne from their perspective and understanding, not Anne's. Anne's actual perspective and point of view has yet to be seen on this board.

Not saying whether it's right or wrong or anything. Just acknowledging that the boards do not give a complete picture.

MonoVCPHG

10-30-2009, 01:49 AM

This was added to the original post yesterday. Maybe it will answer some of that For you.

Thanks for that snippet, Sunshine Girl. I think we are possibly seeing a case of people not being at the same stage of poly exploration. I see this at our meetings; people just discovering poly, defining it for themselves, learning what they really want. Others have more experience, explored more and have a clearer picture of what they want. I think Anne is a little behind in her exploration and needs time to evaluate what it is she exactly wants from the relationship. It may be a case of I want total freedom with others (such as fwb) but total security with others (her triad).
Hopefully she is not viewing the triad as a safety blanket to run to when there is no fwb or casual aquaintences to occupy her.

Then again, I might be full of shit :) Only Anne knows.

MonoVCPHG

10-30-2009, 01:54 AM

I just want to mention that although I may seem a little harsh in my assessment of the impact and commitments that "third's" have within relationships... I am one. Not in the sexual way, but in the family way. I have thought about these things extensively: my commitment, contribution and impact. I accept and know what I bring to the table and what I don't.

LovingRadiance

10-30-2009, 02:01 AM

I agree with this, which is why I brought up the legalities of marriage in the first place. So the question is: In a long term functioning committed triad, must that level of commitment only be limited to being between two members of the triad? Must there always be a third one out in such a situation?

I don't know the answer to that. I do know that if I was approaching a long term triad arrangement, I would certainly want to have access to that kind of commitment. Perhaps Anne doesn't want that level of commitment. Perhaps she does want it but doesn't feel she can have it so she's not committing fully. I honestly don't know what her level of commitment is here because her's is the only voice that hasn't been heard in this debate.

Violet has every right to see through the commitment of marriage that she and HMA are embarking on. She has every right to want to keep her ring on as a symbol of that huge part of her life that she's giving over to HMA. But if that is indeed what she wants, then that would seem to be at odds with trying to have another equal partner to build a triad with.

Do I think there's anything wrong with that? No. Perhaps the triad isn't meant to be equal...I have no idea. That type of arrangement is a happy arrangement that exists for many people. However, since it does seem to be a source of conflict as it's been written here, then it would also suggest that it might not be happy for all involved. But again, I don't know because not all parts of this have been heard. So before anyone jumps down my throat for it, I'm only offering a perspective and that's it.

Personally I think what you wrote here makes sense. But I would put a spin on it. ;)

Were it me, I would want all three people in a long-term triad to be equal in commitment level. I would not want anyone to be "the third". All parts equilateral so to speak.
BUT presuming that would happen at some point in my life going forward-I have already spent 11 years with Maca and I would not give up my wedding ring. I WOULD create some other form (other rings, tattoos, whatever) of recognition. But just because your life changes (My opinion) doesn't negate the importance of what WAS prior to the change...

So I think there is a way to compromise with this issue and I think it's absolutely absurd not to if the primary reason is that it is inconvenient or seems trivial to others...
I think her desire to keep her rings is reasonable (presuming the triad remains) and I think it shouldn't be such a battle. (but that's just me).

Ceoli

10-30-2009, 02:05 AM

Then again, I might be full of shit :) Only Anne knows.

This might be a bit of a tangent, but way back when I first joined this board there was a thread from a couple that had a committed triad with a third that didn't work out. It basically amounted to something like "Our third didn't behave the way we wanted her to in the relationship. What went wrong?"

Most of the answers consisted of all sorts of speculation about whether she was honest, really poly, etc. I really had to facepalm all the vilification of her. I'm kind of seeing the same thing here. The only piece of info I can glean from all of this is what Alex said. It seems that there are different goals at play here. But I can't speculate as to Anne's goals because her voice hasn't been at the table.

Now perhaps people will think this is another "think about the third" soapbox post, but rest assured I would have the very same issue if it were a member of the couple that wasn't represented. It just so happens that it's usually the third's voice that get's heard the least around here.

MonoVCPHG

10-30-2009, 02:10 AM

It just so happens that it's usually the third's voice that get's heard the least around here.

I would definitely like to hear Anne's point of view, Ceoli. In her words.

LovingRadiance

10-30-2009, 02:10 AM

This might be a bit of a tangent, but way back when I first joined this board there was a thread from a couple that had a committed triad with a third that didn't work out. It basically amounted to something like "Our third didn't behave the way we wanted her to in the relationship. What went wrong?"

Most of the answers consisted of all sorts of speculation about whether she was honest, really poly, etc. I really had to facepalm all the vilification of her. I'm kind of seeing the same thing here. The only piece of info I can glean from all of this is what Alex said. It seems that there are different goals at play here. But I can't speculate as to Anne's goals because her voice hasn't been at the table.

Now perhaps people will think this is another "think about the third" soapbox post, but rest assured I would have the very same issue if it were a member of the couple what wasn't represented. It just so happens, that it's usually the third's voice that get's heard the least around here.

I agree it's all speculation when we aren't hearing all sides. That is why I said it sounds like a compromisable issue-not "well Violet is all correct and Anne's a you know what".
Anne (or HMA) may have VERY valid reasons for wanting triple rings.

NO PROBLEM! I'm right there with ya!

But surely we aren't going to throw away expensive jewelry just because we enhanced the relationship?????

I talked with Maca about it last night-because I was curious on his take, I knew mine. He and I agreed-it just seems like a big huge to-do over nothing.
She wants to keep a wedding ring.. AND SO?

A ring does not a marriage make.
A ring does not a triad make
A ring does not a marriage break.
A ring does not a triad break.

I could make that list go miles with examples! It's only symbolic of her commitment to HMA, BUT it is not symbolic of a lack of commitment to another.

ANY mother can acknowledge that just because they wear a wedding ring DOES NOT mean that they are not equally committed to their child... I have a mothers ring now-great, fun for me. But prior to getting it-I was still just as devoted to my children as I am my husband and I am still just as devoted to my husband even though I wear a ring on my right hand for GreenGecko.

LovingRadiance

10-30-2009, 02:11 AM

i would definitely like to hear anne's point of view, ceoli. In her words.

ditto. ;)

Ceoli

10-30-2009, 02:18 AM

But surely we aren't going to throw away expensive jewelry just because we enhanced the relationship?????

If I were a third, I would not want to be considered an enhancement (which is probably why I won't be being a third any time soon), but I understand what you mean. And I don't think it's necessary either. There are always ways to compromise, but compromise can only happen when all members of the relationship are willing to let go of something they're clinging to. But I get the sense that the ring is but one of the issues at play here.

Sunshinegrl

10-30-2009, 02:41 AM

I would definitely like to hear Anne's point of view, Ceoli. In her words.

Yep.

I disagree that we dont hear the "thirds" view alot round here... We recently had Sweetie, GreenGecko and Of course we have Aussielover... All "thirds" making it work in their own ways. And Of Course Mono... The Third who isnt a third. ;)

And I think be "enhancing" the relationship LR meant "extending/opening" the relationship.

Ceoli

10-30-2009, 02:48 AM

Yep.

I disagree that we dont hear the "thirds" view alot round here... We recently had Sweetie, GreenGecko and Of course we have Aussielover... All "thirds" making it work in their own ways. And Of Course Mono... The Third who isnt a third. ;)

And I think be "enhancing" the relationship LR meant "extending/opening" the relationship.

That's a good point. There have been quite a few more since I joined the boards, but I still feel the absence of many voices when discussions like this come up. Not just this one particularly, but in general. It's always lovely to hear how people are making it work. It's also important to hear those voices when things are not working.

And while I know what LR meant by enhancing, I think the way language is used can be pretty important, which is why I brought that up.

LovingRadiance

10-30-2009, 02:51 AM

If I were a third, I would not want to be considered an enhancement (which is probably why I won't be being a third any time soon), but I understand what you mean. And I don't think it's necessary either. There are always ways to compromise, but compromise can only happen when all members of the relationship are willing to let go of something they're clinging to. But I get the sense that the ring is but one of the issues at play here.

I don't really know how to put it-because the reality is if one relationship already exists-you are enhancing it if you add anything to it....

Not like 'oh I upgraded my tv'.. .
but what is a good term?

I think for me I would MUCH prefer a quad... I can't exactly define why... I think I could have done a healthy, functional triad with greengecko and my exgirlfriend... but that's not the dynamic now.

Married to Maca, my preference would be a quad.

BUT I agree that the bottom line is that if such a huge battle is coming over a ring-then it at least highly suggests that something else is brewing.

:(

LovingRadiance

10-30-2009, 02:52 AM

You all are too fast for me tonight!! :)

I have a friend battling with her hubby who is venting on the phone-and I cna't keep up. ;)

Words what they are, I love your ways of expressing things Ceoli!!!

Ceoli

10-30-2009, 02:54 AM

I don't really know how to put it-because the reality is if one relationship already exists-you are enhancing it if you add anything to it....

Not like 'oh I upgraded my tv'.. .
but what is a good term?

That's probably a whole other thread! A lot of that has to do with points of view and all sorts of things. There's a lot of existential stuff to be covered in something like that :)

Sunshinegrl

10-30-2009, 03:15 AM

I don't really know how to put it-because the reality is if one relationship already exists-you are enhancing it if you add anything to it....

Not like 'oh I upgraded my tv'.. .
but what is a good term?

Funny the reference I had used before editing was "turbo charging" an already awesome car. :P

aussielover

10-30-2009, 05:50 AM

There have been quite a few more since I joined the boards, but I still feel the absence of many voices when discussions like this come up. Not just this one particularly, but in general.

Just to address this point...Honestly after being ASKED to share my point of view on some things, and writing a rather long post about it, and then NO replies, I'm a little discourraged and feel like wtf is the point of me saying anything when I'll just be ignored. Especially one with so much meaning and me exposing my feelings on quite a few things. I'm an introvert by nature and that was a bit difficult for me to do in the first place.

Addressing this issue... when I was married, I NEVER took off my ring. It wasn't my marriage, but it was the symbol for it, like some of the other ladies have said. When I DID take it off, I was serious and the marriage was really over.
I would never expect either SG or AB to take off their rings. Just because they were married and THEN I came along. My joining the relationship doesn't diminish what they have, so why should they have to give up something important that symbolizes their marriage. Eventually I would like to have something for all three of us. But again, that would be in addition to their current rings.

MonoVCPHG

10-30-2009, 05:57 AM

that would be in addition to their current rings.

That's perfect! I can't imagine anyone having an issue with this. I will eventually get my own ring...an addition to my existing tattoo ring In have. I just have to wait for Redpepper to be comfortable with it. Lots of time!!

sea

10-30-2009, 07:03 AM

Is it the issue of the rings that's the problem or is it the feelings that it has brought up?

Sounds more like there are three people with different wants, needs and desires and you haven't found a common ground. If the symbolism of a ring is important, it should be considered with the respect deserved.

Going for a drive to capture a little bit of one on one time, Hell Ya! Every kind of relationship needs alone time, one on one and 'family' time to remain in a healthy balance!

Kids,,,,,big issue! If opinions and desires to have or not to have are so different you need to back up the truck and properly address this. A child isn't given the choice of what type dynamic they are birthed into. We are the parents of 6 now adult children between us, they may be 'raised' but we are parents for life! This is one issue that can not be put aside, it won't go away,
and the ramifications can be far reaching!

I truly hurt for you Violet, I have known many of the same feelings. I wish you all the best and hope you can find what is right for the three of you!

Hugs!

redpepper

10-30-2009, 07:48 AM

oh I have so much to say....

agreed- the ring thing to me indicates bigger fish to fry...

The issue over marriage and babies?
Babies are forever, marriage isn't.... it's by far a bigger commitment...!!!! Be careful with that violet. You my think that it means something to be married to HMA, but if he were to have a kid with Anne, by default his attention would be going there. At least it should be going there.

Ceoli- I remembering you saying to me once, after you dated that couple, that you would like to have a "V" as I have. I suggest to you that perhaps you are feeling misunderstood because you don't have what you seek yet. It seems to me that the other "thirds" on this forum are largely happy with their position and are quite comfy and feeling loved and needed in their situations. Aussielover seems so and I know Mono seems so... (okay Mono, lets face it, this thing we have is pretty damned close to a triad in terms of what we speak of anyway). Perhaps you need to listen to that in yourself and begin seeking out primary relationships. This man you are getting to know on the west coast cannot offer you this situation. He sounds lovely and you sound excited and perhaps I am reading too much into your investment here, but he is just good while you could be seeking GREAT! Because you are seeking out good, you are maybe wasting the time you should be using to have GREAT!

Further more, .......and I'm so sorry for taking over this thread violet, but I have been thinking hard about you Ceoli and have finally thought what this might all be for you.... I think that perhaps because you have so much hard earned experience and wisdom about being a third, that is largely what you share on here. I would ask if maybe that keeps you in it? You are a strong advocate for the rights of thirds for sure, but perhaps you can let that go a bit and think about what direction you want to go now.

one last thing to violet, to get back on topic, and for the record...... I am a little shocked that you would allow anyone to tell you what you can and cannot do with your wedding ring. Once that sucker is on your finger, it's yours and for you to do as you will with it. I have been wearing mine on my right hand as I have lost a lot of weight and it doesn't fit, not to mention out of respect for Mono,,,, although it occurs to me of late that it looks like we are married when we are together and I like that.... a lot..... heh:D

Ceoli

10-30-2009, 11:26 AM

Ceoli- I remembering you saying to me once, after you dated that couple, that you would like to have a "V" as I have. I suggest to you that perhaps you are feeling misunderstood because you don't have what you seek yet. It seems to me that the other "thirds" on this forum are largely happy with their position and are quite comfy and feeling loved and needed in their situations. Aussielover seems so and I know Mono seems so... (okay Mono, lets face it, this thing we have is pretty damned close to a triad in terms of what we speak of anyway). Perhaps you need to listen to that in yourself and begin seeking out primary relationships. This man you are getting to know on the west coast cannot offer you this situation. He sounds lovely and you sound excited and perhaps I am reading too much into your investment here, but he is just good while you could be seeking GREAT! Because you are seeking out good, you are maybe wasting the time you should be using to have GREAT!

Further more, .......and I'm so sorry for taking over this thread violet, but I have been thinking hard about you Ceoli and have finally thought what this might all be for you.... I think that perhaps because you have so much hard earned experience and wisdom about being a third, that is largely what you share on here. I would ask if maybe that keeps you in it? You are a strong advocate for the rights of thirds for sure, but perhaps you can let that go a bit and think about what direction you want to go now.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with that assessment. As I have said repeatedly, I have no issues with healthy triad relationships working for others even though I know that such a situation wouldn't work for me. However, what I haven been saying seems to be being viewed through a different lens. What kept me in the debate initially was that SG seemed to be viewing everything I said through that lens and continually took issue with things that I neither said nor implied. Other issues I've been bringing up have to do with issues I see in their dynamic, not issues I have with the dynamic itself. And acknowledging that there's a huge piece of this dynamic that people are missing yet still judging on. It seems that trying to create an equal triad is placing a lot of strain on the relationship and it seems that forcing this relationship into that specific structure is causing a lot of pain for Violet and probably for the other members too. This is not the same as fighting for the rights of the third.

This isn't about me or my search for a primary. I'm very happy with where I'm at at the moment and happy with what relationships I have budding. I don't expect that part to be understood. This is about recognizing and calling out some very serious issues that I see from my perspective and that's it. And apparently it's a lot of work for that perspective to be understood and not lambasted at times. But since it's not about me, I don't take it with me off the page. If you have any further questions or issues about it, feel free to PM me.

redpepper

10-30-2009, 04:49 PM

Nope, no questions. It was all just a thought and none of my business, so I will leave it. I hope I haven't offended. That wasn't my intent either. I just have a feeling there is more going on for you than we read here. Its not our business and you certainly don't have to talk about it here. Of course I could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the first time :) I hope you understand that I ask out of caring, not out of judgement or anything else. I'm sorry I said anything. Carry on...

Ceoli

10-30-2009, 04:54 PM

No worries and no offense taken! I've laid my relationship stuff out there, not much more to tell really :)

redpepper

10-30-2009, 06:01 PM

Just so you know Ceoli I would PM you if I could from my phone. It doesn't sound like there is more to say anyway. :) unless you have something private to add.

LovingRadiance

10-30-2009, 09:47 PM

Just to address this point...Honestly after being ASKED to share my point of view on some things, and writing a rather long post about it, and then NO replies, I'm a little discourraged and feel like wtf is the point of me saying anything when I'll just be ignored. Especially one with so much meaning and me exposing my feelings on quite a few things. I'm an introvert by nature and that was a bit difficult for me to do in the first place.

I know for me-I look for all the new threads-but particularly this last week NONE of the threads show up dark (used to be all new ones showed up darker and any that had new posts since I'd viewed them did as well).
So I'm left scrolling around endlessly trying to recall if I've read something or not. Put that together with 2-3 days when ALL the first page and some of the second in a few places were new. Heck-Run out of time then!!

aussielover

10-30-2009, 09:57 PM

I know for me-I look for all the new threads-but particularly this last week NONE of the threads show up dark (used to be all new ones showed up darker and any that had new posts since I'd viewed them did as well).
So I'm left scrolling around endlessly trying to recall if I've read something or not. Put that together with 2-3 days when ALL the first page and some of the second in a few places were new. Heck-Run out of time then!!

It was the post I wrote in the Relationship structures, triads, unicorns and all that... thread.

Sunshinegrl

10-30-2009, 11:39 PM

re's a huge piece of this dynamic that people are missing yet still judging on. It seems that trying to create an equal triad is placing a lot of strain on the relationship and it seems that forcing this relationship into that specific structure is causing a lot of pain for Violet and probably for the other members too. This is not the same as fighting for the rights of the third.

WELL DUH.

I think that TRUE equality in any relationship... not just triads, quads, V's etc, is impossible. Even Fairness is over rated. What it is that it seems to work best is Balance. Everyone having as much of their needs met as possible and A general happiness that comes with it.

Ceoli

10-30-2009, 11:58 PM

WELL DUH.

I think that TRUE equality in any relationship... not just triads, quads, V's etc, is impossible. Even Fairness is over rated. What it is that it seems to work best is Balance. Everyone having as much of their needs met as possible and A general happiness that comes with it.

I'm not exactly sure what your problem is with me, but feel free to take up over PM. I suspect anything I say would be met with a similar tone. It's interesting that I and others have made this very point repeatedly in this thread and in others and now finally you say something like "WELL DUH" as if this is a point that doesn't even need to be said. It certainly seems that a lot of these threads wouldn't even be necessary if this was a "duh" point with people. ::shrug::

As for your other point, I agree entirely, as you would see from this thread:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1024&page=3

Where just this morning I said this very thing:

I like the idea of that kind of natural geometry you speak of. People change and their needs change throughout a relationship..sometimes from day to day and sometimes over many years. The relationships that thrive (poly and mono) are the ones who's shape can shift and change with the needs of the people in it.

It reminds me of one of the major principles of balance in the Yoga that I practice. Basically, in my practice when we do balance poses, one thing that we must first accept is that true balance and equilibrium do not exist in our reality but only as a compass for us as we seek balance out. When in balance poses, it's not about attaining the balance, but in allowing our intelligent bodies to shift and adjust to the changing imbalances. If you stiffen up and try to hold the pose, you fall. If you shift and wobble as your balance shifts, you're more able to hold your pose.

That is one element I've seen in all successful relationships, regardless of their geometry.

redpepper

10-31-2009, 12:19 AM

Sunshinegrl

10-31-2009, 12:32 AM

I'm not exactly sure what your problem is with me, but feel free to take up over PM. I suspect anything I say would be met with a similar tone. It's interesting that I and others have made this very point repeatedly in this thread and in others and now finally you say something like "WELL DUH" as if this is a point that doesn't even need to be said. It certainly seems that a lot of these threads wouldn't even be necessary if this was a "duh" point with people. ::shrug::

As for your other point, I agree entirely, as you would see from this thread:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1024&page=3

Where just this morning I said this very thing:

Funny, Because that basicly what I have been saying also. Even going so far to offer solutions to the meet the need for Equality/balance. And I Also said back on page 1, that what was sort after was balance.

Perhaps a Balance is what you striving for. Things should be balanced. That all involed should have balance. I don't think that Things like taking off wedding rings.. A rg is a sign of commitment. Sure its fair for you to be married... You and HMA made the Choice to make that Commitment. Should you decide to make a simmilar/equivelant commitment to Anne in the future then Perhaps you can wear another ring or item to signify that? Seems fair to me.

In the grand scheme of things Vi asked about the NEED/Requirement to take off her ring. Whether it was fair to her that HMA assumed she would /or had too. And about if it was unreasonable when seeking Equality within the triad.

Triad Equality

So, someone tell me if I'm waaaaaaay off base here. HMA and I had a conversation last night about a “truly equal” triad. And I'm having a really, really hard time getting my head around it all. I think I just need to rant for a minute to help get my head on straight.

The big point of contention was marriage. HMA and I have been engaged since roughly March of this year, and are planning our wedding for September. We had kicked around some hypothetical ideas for practicalities sake (ie, our third whether it be Anne or someone else and I getting married, etc.), but after a LOT of thought, I decided that based on personal values, and based on how much marriage means to me, that I'm not willing to give up being HMA's wife. It's too important to me .

Originally Posted by Ceoli
I like the idea of that kind of natural geometry you speak of. People change and their needs change throughout a relationship..sometimes from day to day and sometimes over many years. The relationships that thrive (poly and mono) are the ones who's shape can shift and change with the needs of the people in it.

This I agree with 100% . I wouldnt be in this type of relationship if We were not able to shift and change. So Amazingly. Something we actually agree on.

And I Only have one issue with you..Which I am happy to share right here. The fact that you seem to think that you are the be all and end all of the rules and regulations in regards to being a third . Until that post quoted above you seemed to have no understanding of the need to be flexible and sometimes even unequal to achieve happiness. As I have pointed out before. NOTHING is ever truly equal or fair. EVER. You simply learn to work with it to make it work for you. Balance.

I will also say that What RP had to say before was also the perspective I have of you from the posts I have read of yours on this forum. I dont know you In RL. But from what I have known of you that you have posted here it seemed pretty spot on. JMO. Weather you agree with it or not it seemed to be a fair assumption based on the perception you give in your posts.I truly hope that you find a relationship ( primary/triad/mono whatever) that works for you and that you are happy and all that jazz.

Ceoli

10-31-2009, 12:38 AM

And I Only have one issue with you..Which I am happy to share right here. The fact that you seem to think that you are the be all and end all of the rules and regulations in regards to being a third . Until that post quoted above you seemed to have no understanding of the need to be flexible and sometimes even unequal to achieve happiness. As I have pointed out before. NOTHING is ever truly equal or fair. EVER. You simply learn to work with it to make it work for you. Balance.

::shrug:: If that's what you see then I doubt anything I say will be regarded as otherwise. I've never said that there must be equality or that things MUST be equal or fair. And I've never claimed to be an end-all be-all expert. I am, however, not shy about giving my perspective from that point of view and raising issues from my point of view. If that bothers you, feel free to disregard. But really, this contrarian crap is getting a bit old. Half the time you were lambasting into me, we were actually agreeing. But hey, clearly you have made your decision about everything I say. Fair enough.

Sunshinegrl

10-31-2009, 12:52 AM

I guess thats it. Thanx.

greenearthal

10-31-2009, 01:19 AM

Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!

Ceoli

10-31-2009, 01:21 AM

Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!

Alex, you rock :D

greenearthal

10-31-2009, 01:24 AM

*bow* Thank you.

*throws a chair*

NeonKaos

10-31-2009, 04:28 AM

ima chillin

Fidelia

10-31-2009, 03:55 PM

I just got here. Haven't been monitoring this thread as I've been short on time recently.

Man! Miss a little, miss a lot!

*picks up Alex's chair, throws it at Steve Wilkos*

HappiestManAlive

11-01-2009, 02:08 AM

NeonKaos

11-01-2009, 02:42 AM

Time to get that ol' Vulcan mind-meld thing working.

This written communication ain't all it's cracked up to be.

HappiestManAlive

11-01-2009, 03:12 AM

We talk, a lot. She told me this thread existed, but I didn't realize what it was or what had been said, lol. We're actually talking about it right now, lol.

Mark1npt

11-01-2009, 04:54 AM

Shenanigans! The ring thing is moot, IMO......the big ? is what the hell is Anne doing and is this the kind of poly arrangement that Vi and HMA signed up for? If it isn't right in all 3 parties heads, then it's all for naught. They're getting way ahead of themselves with the ring talk.

sea

11-01-2009, 07:00 AM

After reading the whole story of HMA, Violet, Lana and Anne( and Mark).
OMG! what are you thinking???

It is a proven fact the the human brain hasn't fully even developed untill 25 years of age!! At 20 and 21 years of age, I am sorry, but you don't have the maturity and knowledge to even fathom all the in and outs of a monogamous relationship, never mind a multi faceted poly one! ( I am not saying Vi and Anne specifically, but that age group)

Our youngest daughter is 23, she is our most 'worldly' and independant child. If she came to us and said this was going on in her life I would say RUN, RUN HARD FAST........AND NOW!!!!

To be involved with in this type of relationship, with age differances, and past histories so troubled. So much, so fast and so young! Be carefull!, slow down and if you are going to continue, do it with lots of full honest communication.

It may be the Mom in me, but is also the caring!

Ceoli, you thought you needed to duck .....Hell...think I am now facing the firing squad!

violet

11-01-2009, 07:31 AM

It is a proven fact the the human brain hasn't fully even developed untill 25 years of age!! At 20 and 21 years of age, I am sorry, but you don't have the maturity and knowledge to even fathom all the in and outs of a monogamous relationship, never mind a multi faceted poly one! ( I am not saying Vi and Anne specifically, but that age group)

No needs to duck, sea. lol I just have to point out that this is one of my pet peeves. I did a lot of study on exactly what parts of the brain aren't fully developed - because it was something that my older partners often pulled on me when I would say or do something they deemed immature or unwise. Sometimes, they were right - other times, not so much.

I can see where one might assume - based on the recent research and also on experience with many "older adolescents" (which is still what we're considered until 25, from a neural standpoint) - that we aren't able to grasp the "in and out of a monogamous relationship". It's less about the so-called hard science, IMO, and more about said adolescent's personal experiences, the way it's affected them, combined with some science. Like we don't all know someone in their 30's or 40's who have less ability to be rational and conduct themselves in a way that's DECIDEDLY not conducive to a relationship (poly or otherwise), let alone in some cases function in society. I know 40-year-olds who would be better off associating themselves with my best friend's 13 year old sister than their own age group.

The research has concluded that in the majority of people aged 10-25, that it's the prefrontal cortex (which controls the "executive functions" of higher reasoning; ie, impulse control), and the neurotransmitters that manage dopamine (the chemical that controls concentration, advanced problem-solving, etc). It explains why people "our age" are so impulsive, and have a tendency to be emotionally driven. I can stand up and admit that I have moments where I have said - out loud - "Aww, crap. That was a rebellious teenage moment, wasn't it?" to HMA. He always laughs at me. Most people my age wouldn't be so capable. lol At least I can recognize it, move past it, and get on with life.

Development and capabilities of the adolescent brain are affected greatly by environmental and situational factors as well. Alcohol does HORRIBLE things to brain development before 25 (yet our drinking age is still 21. So weird.), and severely inhibits the prefrontal cortex's ability to handle rational thought and impulse control, forcing the individual to rely heavily on the "emotional" sectors of the brain to influence decisions. It also has a ton to do with what portions of the brain are used most often, etc.

The research also states that while the brain isn't done FULLY maturing, with all connections made - the biological age in which all "grey matter" is up to par and functional is 20-21. It's a matter of how you exercise it, as I stated above. IF you're still stuck in your "emotional area", allowing that to govern you - it will take time for the brain to develop those connections fully. If you actively work to think rationally, correct yourself when you're not, etc - your brain is functioning at the "adult level" of maturity by the age of 20-21. Most people in this age group obviously don't. lol

Anyway, I ranted off enough. Just keep in mind that there are a LOT of factors that go into the way a person thinks, handles relationships, and conducts themselves that ISN'T related to an under-developed brain. ;)

Anne and I are perfectly capable of handling ourselves. Don't make a judgment call like that - especially not about me - without knowing what made me who I am. I've packed a lot of life into 20 years, done a lot of damage, been married and divorced already, etc. Anne - well, not so much. But she's ahead of her time too.

Still, appreciate the input!

sea

11-01-2009, 08:13 AM

violet

11-01-2009, 06:36 PM

Violet...I never meant to say you were to ' young ' to understand. Yes, many many outside influences make us who we are, how we think...do ....blah blah blah...
Just the little that HMA said about past experiences let the imagination run...and my heart breaks for anyone that has to do with crap than NO-ONE should ever have to face.
I have read many of your posts, and you of all people on here are the one I can relate to the most, I have felt so much like you have expressed. I know how much hurt comes with that, and I wouldn't want anyone to feel this.

I have never met you...and all I would like to do is hug you and say, damn,,,but I understand!

I didn't mean to go off like that. That whole "Brain study" is a really touchy subject for me, and I was REALLY on edge when I wrote that last night. It's been a rough couple of days. Weeks, really. I'm really sorry - hope I didn't offend you.

And hey, if we understand one another - if you ever need someone to talk to, PM away!

LovingRadiance

11-02-2009, 07:42 PM

For the love of all that is holy, what the hell is this?! I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

I NEVER told Violet to take her promise/engagement ring off. Were we to wed prior to a trong third entering our relationship, I would NOT ask her to remove her wedding ring.

There was a hypothetical discussion about what we would do IN A YEAR when our planned wedding date approaches if things with Anne have progressed. I stated that at that time, should it come, I would prefer a ring for all three of us. I have no idea where the rest of this is coming from.

There was a point in the discussion where I said that in MY OPINION, a long-term triad established either before or after a marriage would have a symbol of the triad. I said that it may or may not be an addition to or a replacement for any existing symbols. I thought I was pretty clear that this would depend on how everyone involved felt; i was asked my opinion on this hypothetical and I gave it.

As for the other examples my dear Vi gave - sweetie, what is going on, lol? A lot has happened since that talk, but all that aside - where did the concept of equality become equated with giving up "sweet little things" or forcing participation in such? Babies? What the...

If I may-I think what happened is that a potentially non-eventful conversation may have been had at a time when V just wasn't emotionally "on top of her game" and fears and concerns ensued.

I had a weekend like that this weekend. Almost COMPLETELY driven by hormones (sorry I know we women!). Fortunately I was able to start the weekend with "wow Maca I'm really feeling moody and emotional and need some TLC" and he was on the ball realizing that the weekend was likely to revolve around reassuring me.

It's Monday and I feel like my moodiness actually drove us to even closer moments and understandings.

No harm-now you two can clarify meaning and reach a better understanding of needs/desires/wants etc!