Hiding pain

[sinew]

Things have been moving relatively quickly for my husband Charlie and his OSO Juliet. Since they came clean about their affair, we've made halting, difficult steps towards rebuilding as a poly relationship in the spirit of openness and generosity. A month ago, I gave my blessing to poly, and promised to try and make it work on my end, with the caveat that I wanted them to be kind, mindful, and generous with me, too.

At first, very little happened, but then in the space of a couple of weeks, they began holding hands, kissing, and planning to see concerts together again (concerts are how they began having sex behind my back, a year ago). I found my head was spinning, and every week after getting the update on what was happening from my husband, I fell apart. All my "calm abiding" tools weren't enough, and my heart was screaming at me to protect myself. I know the outer circumstances aren't the real problem, it's what I have invested in them - the feeling of fear, inadequacy, distrust, and bitterness are all my own creations. I've been training with thinking about what they will be doing together for months, and forcing myself to stay with the pain. But when it became real things I was dealing with, the urge to run away was stronger than I expected.

And so I reached out, wanting to explain that I was hurting, because I know that my usual state of outward composure hides my turmoil very effectively. I started talking with Charlie last Wednesday, and we talked through the weekend, him even helping me write a letter to send to Juliet and her husband. I sent the letter, and caused a firestorm.

Juliet and her husband said they had thought I was over all of the negative emotions I was describing, and feel misled by me. Charlie, despite having held me through 2am crying sessions weekly for months now, and having read the letter repeatedly in the days leading up to my sending it, also suddenly said that he had no idea I was still in pain, and this changed everything.

Did I hide it that well? I don't think I did, but they have no reason to lie. Did they really think that someone who was as openly devastated about being forced to choose this path as I was had just "converted"? If I am so good an actor, how is it that every friend we've told perceives my pain immediately?

They are confused, I am confused. They say that we cannot proceed if I'm still in pain like this, but I thought it was a given that I would be in pain for a long time to come. It takes time to build up the ability to resist spinning off with my emotional reactions - I expected that. I assume it will be years before I'm really comfortable and skilled enough to lean through the negativity and not stumble each time it rises up.

I spoke about my hurt in more explicit terms to try and solicit help on specific points, maybe for things to move a little slower. To let them know I wasn't feeling like my vulnerability in all of this was being respected enough yet. But now, emotions are running very high, and there is talk of Juliet or Charlie cutting one another out of their lives and just living with their own misery and resentment toward me... Which of course sounds like a disaster to me, and probably the end of my marriage.

I am tempted to go back into hiding. I don't want to lie to them, but I don't think it's inaccurate for me to say this was all a misunderstanding, and let's just go back to where we were the day before I sent the letter. I'll cope with it. That was my plan all along. I would value any help they can give, but I really, really don't want to rock the boat. Showing them my shadow side doesn't help anything... Does it?

[Ariakas]

Hiding it will eat you alive. It's not worth it to try and bury it. Try to learn to deal or work with what you are feeling. Vent, talk about it, whatever works for you.

[SNeacail]

But now, emotions are running very high, and there is talk of Juliet or Charlie cutting one another out of their lives and just living with their own misery and resentment toward me... Which of course sounds like a disaster to me, and probably the end of my marriage.

To me it sounds like they are not willing to slow down to allow you to process and deal with things and the statement above (in bold) sounds like cruel manipulations on their part. To me this sounds like they are saying that they don't care about your pain and they will either do what they want at whatever pace they wish to take it (which the affair also said) or they will make your life a living hell.

Do NOT hide your pain. Maybe you do need to make greater efforts to clue everyone in when you are struggling with stuff. Don't wait until you get to the end of the rope, address stuff early. I am also of the opinion that it is your husbands duty to clue HIS girlfriend into the fact that your are still struggling. You shouldn't have to get on the phone or e-mail the next morning after a 2am crying session, just to make sure she is culed in to your struggles, she's not your girlfriend. He's not being honest with either of you. JMO

[Hopeful]

I can only speak for myself, but I could never be in a marriage where my husband offered only black and white solutions to the issues you are describing. If you want to make any relationship work, poly, mono, or what have you, you have to be able to talk about how you're feeling without fear of an ultimatum.

That said, I also wouldn't stay silent if I were hurting as much as you seem to be, and just hope that other people figured it out on their own. I don't say that to be harsh at all, but sometimes people see what they want to see, or they see signs that you're unhappy and assume you'll come to them when you're ready. And sometimes that works out. But in your case, it seems like you held it in to the point where it had to come out in the form of this letter, and at that point it was maybe difficult for you to express yourself calmly? (That's conjecture on my part, based on being married to a man who at first bottled up everything.)

If you need time, ask for time. If they are honestly working to make you comfortable, they'll give you what you need to get that way.

[Magdlyn]

There are different ways to get into poly. As a young single person, as a choice for all future relationships. As part of an established couple who both feel something is missing, and choose poly rationally and with love. And then, as a couple wherein one (or both) partners have cheated, are discovered or come clean. :eek:

The third option is, of course, the most painful, because the cheating has caused a breech of trust. So, suddenly, the cheated on partner has to deal with feeling humiliated and betrayed, and then have to force him or herself into bringing the secret lover into his/her life. Not an easy thing to do, and imo, your h and his gf should not expect you to be on board after just a few short weeks. They should be made aware this process can take years, and much work.

[GroundedSpirit]

Hi Sinew,

I wonder if I can offer anything that might help...........

I wonder if the reason this is coming so hard is that you are thinking (maybe everyone else too?) that this is just all about managing emotions.
It's much more than that !
It's about replacing certain belief systems.

Are you willing to DO that ???

Think about it this way...............

Often when we are young we hear people use words - but we hear wrong. So we pronounce them the way WE understood them. Parents and other adults find this cute, so don't correct us. So it get reinforced.
At some point we either grow up some or someone less tolerant calls/corrects us on it. They instruct us the error we've been making and explain the correct way.

It's a shock to us ! We're embarrassed sometimes. I've seen kids try to cling to their old ways for awhile. But eventually we realize we were just mistaken and have to get with the program.

Becoming aware of poly capacity is somewhat like this. We learned a different interpretation early on and it was reinforced by everyone around us for years.
All that's necessary to move with this is to accept and BELIEVE that we were practicing a myth all this time prior !

Do you believe this ? Until you do, nothing down deep will change !

You can try to 'control' emotions, reactions etc etc But it will never be enough. And it will never feel 'good'. or right.

You have to BELIEVE in what you are doing. Once you have that clarity supporting you everything will fall into place in a pretty short time.

Try it :)

GS

[nycindie]

Juliet and her husband said they had thought I was over all of the negative emotions I was describing, and feel misled by me.

Who the fuck are they to judge your emotions as negative? And to assume that you are fine and dandy with all of it when they have not checked with you before your letter to see if that is so? This really gets my goat. They operate as they wish, and when you are being honest about how you feel, they make it seem like there's something wrong with you. I call bullshit!

You feel what you feel. This upset, sadness, anger, etc., isn't negative - it's real. If they want things to be all kitty-cats and rainbows, what are they doing poly for? <snicker>

I say, do not go into hiding. This whole situation needs talking, talking, and more talking.

Hold your head high because you did nothing wrong. Ask Charlie how and why he could have been with you thru all your crying and help you craft that letter to then take sides with them and act surprised. If I were you I would request that Charlie and Juliet take a break until you and your husband have worked things out better and you've reached some emotional equilibrium. If they are so unreasonable as to not want to back away for this, then they really have no sensitivity nor respect for your feelings.

You have been more than willing to confront the cheating and turn it around to accept poly, the least they can do is give you some time to process such a huge shift in the dynamics of your relationship.

[redpepper]

I suggest they do some reading here under "cheating"... it takes years to get over cheating... I dare say that one never gets over it entirely. It is so damaging to the very core of our trust that one is never quite right again... stand up for that! It could never happen. You are being VERY generous even considering her being in his life. Most women would be taking him for everything he has got at this point... I think he needs to find a deeper level of generosity, consideration and compassion. They all do!

[GroundedSpirit]

I suggest they do some reading here under "cheating"... it takes years to get over cheating... I dare say that one never gets over it entirely. It is so damaging to the very core of our trust that one is never quite right again...

Ok RP - a paddling is in order here :) ((getting out big leather paddle))

You are stating YOUR truth (and wounds) :)

"Cheating" is no different than anything else. Onece you truly understand it and build a framework to eliminate it in the future (as much as possible with humans) it becomes nothing more than just one of the many lessons we learn. Making it more than that gives it power over you it doesn't deserve. But it's US that give it that power - not itself.

:)

GS

[River]

Becoming aware of poly capacity is somewhat like this. We learned a different interpretation early on and it was reinforced by everyone around us for years.
All that's necessary to move with this is to accept and BELIEVE that we were practicing a myth all this time prior !

Do you believe this ? Until you do, nothing down deep will change !


GS has it about right, here. All depends on the love paradigm you're committed to -- emotionally, intellectually, spiritually. The force of habit can still have momentum in our thoughts and feelings for a time while transitioning, but all depends on what you're taking a stand for.

Talk all of your feelings through with your husband, including any hurt about betrayal. Try to do this with an open heart. Try to be forgiving.

[redpepper]

It depends on a lot of things mostly the type of cheating. I can't think of any couple, with mutually exclusive boundaries around sex and intimacy, that is un affected in some way for the majority, if not all of their lives. It can and does disabate, but it takes time and is forever changing in some way as far as I have witnessed. I don't think the OP should in any way believe she is wrong or bad for being, what seems to be, devistated over again. She has every right and its totally normal. It might even hapopen again and as far as I am concerned they should all have heaps of compassion for her and wait, patiently until she feels ready to move forward again.

[sinew]

Thank you everyone for your advice and understanding.

One thing that has become clear to me is that I don't express emotions well. My ability to put on a neutral face has definitely made the situation worse, as it seems no one else realized the depths of my hurt over what was moving forward.

I realize in retrospect I thought that I was *not* hiding pain before, because I could regularly talk calmly about what I was feeling and have the occasional quietly tearful night. To me, this was as close to wearing my heart on my sleeve as I get, but from the outside I looked like someone who was handling everything quite well - having a few bad days here and there but generally coping successfully. But my communication habits were obscuring the intensity, frequency, and depth of my pain. I was hiding it without thinking I was.

It's not enough just to talk about it, I think. I have to figure out how to externalize raw emotion in ways I have practically never done. I've been thinking a lot about how to make friends with emotion, so that my instinctive reaction of shame toward feeling something strongly doesn't cause me to clamp down. I don't have any answers yet, but it is at least useful to be conscious of the problem.

And Juliet and Charlie - they need to listen more openly, not try to hear what they want to hear, which is of course that I'm fine. They need to treat me like I'm trying to do something that's incredibly hard for me. They need to keep in mind that while everything they're doing with each other now is old news to them (they did all this and more weekly during the affair), it's the first time *I've* had to deal with it. They need to remember that even though it seems like they're doing the right thing when they ask me "so, can we do X, now?", it really just puts me on the spot. I feel I can only say yes if I want them to be happy, and no if I want to stand in the way of their happiness. I want them to approach me with more sensitivity than that, knowing that the answer will probably be "yes", because I very much want them to be happy, but that it may also be very hard on me. I look strong, but they need to remember how vulnerable I am.

I think they're willing. They offered to take a 3-week break to give me some time to decompress, starting today. I feel lighter, knowing things aren't going to continue accelerating for now, and I hope to make some progress on my ability to externalize by the time things start up again.

I don't want to become the vocally bitter mono who ruins her partner's every enjoyment of poly by reminding him that she's still hurting. But as you guys have pointed out, if that's where I'm at, it's not much use to suffer quietly until something like last week comes along and blows the lid off. I'm not sure how to find the middle ground, but it's got to be there somewhere.

One step at a time...

[redpepper]

Good for you, it sounds like they are trying to be reasonable and doing their best to accomodate.

[nycindie]

They need to remember that even though it seems like they're doing the right thing when they ask me "so, can we do X, now?", it really just puts me on the spot. I feel I can only say yes if I want them to be happy, and no if I want to stand in the way of their happiness.

I think one way to derail being put on the spot is for all of you (perhaps you and Charlie first, then meet again all together) to set up boundaries and ground rules that cover everything -- or as much as possible. Maybe start making a list of your concerns, things that are important to you, how you want to be treated, and then schedule a time to talk. Then, make sure they both understand all the points of these rules (by having them repeat back to you, or discuss it).

This way everyone knows up front what they can and cannot do going forward and no one has to then ask you if something is okay. You can even put a time frame on it, like here is what I can live with for the next three months, of five, or six, whatever. Then you all meet again after that time period is up and discuss any problems, successes, etc.

If they ask for something AFTER boundaries are established, that probably means that either something came up that hadn't been discussed, or that they are attempting to cross those boundaries and renegotiation is in order. But make sure that you are not a patsy to be walked all over, that you do not want to be pitted against the two of them (Charlie is YOUR husband after all), and these are your terms in order to go along with it. They should know that you are coming back, very bravely, from being cheated on and that is no easy feat. More sensitivity on their parts is called for, I think.

[Mohegan]

It's rare that I agree with NYC but in this case I do.

Poly after an affair is hard. And it take A LOT of work. Karma and I are a little more than a year out from me finding out abot all his affairs. It took a lot of work to get where we are now.

What worked best for me was expressing how I felt. And it changed everyday, every hour at times. I was okay and moving forward and then I was 30 steps backwards. Karma listened, everytime. Even if it was just going over and over the same things. He got frustrated, but he never made me feel bad for not healing fast enough.

That allowed me to really look at things and start taking the action I needed to take. To learn my boundries. Sometimes what I thought I could handle turned out to be more than I could handle, so I told him and we worked through it.

None of it was easy. I was full of raw emotion for quite awhile. So many nights I cried. And then I started boxing so I could work out the anger.

Do not hide your emotions, you feel them for a reason. But you also need to know that they feel theirs as well. Karma was frustrated a lot of the time. He had a right to be. I kept going up and down like a yo-yo. But I had never dealt with this before, not only his string of affairs, but also him dating one of them. We had to rebuild our marriage, while he was in another relationship.

The best thing I did was realize I was only responsible for me. I was so caught up in the fear-"what if he lies again, what if we went through all of this and he still can't be honest and cheats again, I'll be such a fool." No I won't be a fool. It is my love for him and us that allowed me to forgive and try to work through it, if he screws that up, it's on him. It was the most freeing realization I made.

Once I got there, it was all about moving forward.

Red Pepper told me in the begining of my journey that it was up to Karma to make it up to me and prove to me he wanted this to work. At first I balked at that, thinking we had to do it together. But she was right, I wasn't the one who betrayed the trust of our marriage.

So in a nutshell, don't hide your emotions, own them, learn from them and move forward. Don't allow anyone to make you feel like you need to apologize for those emotions. Go at your pace and ask them to respect that, that doesn't mean stand still, and they may not respect that, but if either way you'll see their true colors. Be flexable. Some boundries you may need right now, may need to change in the future, that's okay. Some may not, that's okay too.

And some advice for You and Charlie-Some things I needed to do, like see Karma and his then g/f hug, kiss, hold eachother, hurt me. But I needed to see it to make it real in my brain. Karma felt that the pain meant we were going backwards or that I was changing my mind. I wasn't, I knew it would hurt, but I also knew it had to happen. It's like pulling off a band-aid. You know it's gonna hurt, but in order for the wound to heal it needs to be cleaned and open to the air at a certain point. Somethings you need to experience will hurt, but that doesn't mean you are going backwards.

I hope that all makes sense, I'm on pain pills at the moment and tend to babble.

I just wanted you to know it can get better. Karma and Cricket are no longer together. But Karma and I are stronger than ever and I am encouraging him in his new love interest. This journey was painful and difficult, but I can look back now and say without it we'd be nowhere near as strong or as happy as we are now. I trust him more now than I ever have. After 9 yrs of lies and affairs, that's huge for us.

Good luck to you.

[sinew]

I have to admit, the idea of setting boundaries still fills me with dread. How do I select which things I'm supposed to be accepting and which I'm not when I can't promise not to be upset by any of them? Something as simple as them holding hands - when Charlie mentioned it, I felt ill. I thought about it every time his hands touched me for days after, and I still feel my heart start to race when I think of it.

They certainly didn't do anything wrong by holding hands. In theory, I had already given it the green light. When I felt terrible upon hearing that it was actually happening again, I was ashamed of myself. I tried to tell Charlie, but he was perplexed by my muddled message. I'm sure I came across a lot like how I felt - conflicted and unable to own my pain without feeling like I was letting him down.

I'm not at peace with any of their non-platonic feelings or actions toward each other yet, no matter how committed to getting on board with it I am intellectually. The best I can do is say that I feel I can practice with the pain of them snuggling and kissing for a while, and see if I can get to the point where that feels more okay. I have to be able to give them *something*, but there's nothing yet that would actually be easy on me.

And then I wonder, how fair is it to tell them to go ahead and snuggle and kiss, while I in my suffering make them feel bad every time they do? And how frustrating will it be if I promise to try to get comfortable enough for the next stage within a couple of months, but then it takes much longer?

I'm working to overcome bitterness about the affair, a lifelong problem with jealousy, and a painful history with poly from my college years. I know that practically speaking it may be years before my reactions to what they want are actually easy to deal with. And I know they don't want to wait that long, so we're all going to have to learn to live with pain somehow...

[Mohegan]

I dunno if you have this kind of support, but for me feeling out boundries was easier because I knew I had Karma's support. When we discussed it I told him "I am trying to learn to be okay with this and to deal with all these emotions. I am honestly trying. I need your support and your patience. I may give you the green light for something and have to retract it later. I need you to know this is not out of malice, it is out of my own needs. I need to know I have your support in that. I know you won't be happy and I will try my best to not yo-yo you, but I need you to understand that this is new and raw to me and I'm not going to know what I am okay with and not okay with until I step off the ledge and see what happens." And Karma was loving and supportive, frustrated, but supportive.

You can't promise not to upset them, did they promise not to upset you when they had the affair? No. From my experience I can say there will be times when any or all of you will be upset over something in the dynamic. It's gonna happen because it is so new and raw.

It sounds like you have a lot of healing still to do. I encourage you to stop worrying so much about them and their dynamic and your dynamic with them and look more inward. Take care of you and what you need to heal. They may not be happy with holding on while you find what you need, but ya know what, you didn't ask to have your world rocked and you're working on healing a lot of wounds and they need to be patient with that.

Boundries for me were baby steps.

The first time they saw eachother after I found out it was here in the living room with me in the bedroom. I couldn't see her, see them. It was too much. I spent those few hours crying into my journal. But I wasn't going to go forward by standing still. So my first boundry, rule, step, whatever was you can see her here only. I go with you to pick her up and drop her off. That lasted a few weeks. Then I would let him pick her up and drop her off without me but visits were still here and only with me home. Slowly we went to parties together. More for me to adjust than anything else. To put a social face out there so no one felt need to pitty me.

As we moved forward I became more okay with them being alone together.

Things ended about 7 months after I found out and by that time I was okay with everything other than sleepovers at her place. I need him home at night.

They didn't like a lot of the boundries and restrictions. They didn't like having to sleep on the couch, they didn't like waiting for me to give the go ahead for them to start sleeping together again, they didn't like having to relay every detail of their time together. But that was what I needed to regain trust. Right wrong whatever. It's what I needed and I'll not apologize for it. I made him give me his e-mail passwords and his voicemail password. He was not allowed to delete anything. Any phone conversation happened in front of me. Karma had NO privacy for a long time.

And now, I could careless. I trust him. I know why he was afraid to be honest with me and we've worked on it and moved forward.

I still have things that will trigger the trust issues, but they are few.

I can't tell you what boundries you will need. I know for me at first the thought of them holding hands hit me like a brick. the thought of them kissing, expressing any form of emotion towards eachother just ripped me apart. But I realized, mostly through reading on here, that this was my problem not theirs. I had to work on me to be okay with it. Other than respecting my boundries and working to regain that trust, there was nothing they could do to make me heal. I had to make me heal.

I found a lot of confidence in myself in this time. I relearned how to be self aware and self relient. As painful as it was, this was one of the best things to ever happen to me because I am now so much more aware of myself and my needs. I am so much more confident in who I am. I have a lot more respect for myself now.

It is hard, painful work, but you can move through it. Sometimes it may seem like you are standing still. Karma and I had a few fights because to him I wasn't making any progress, but I was, it was internal, he couldn't see it, so he got frustrated, but I knew I was making progress. Which is way I say don't hide your emotion. I hid a lot of the hurt at first and to me, as I slowly became more okay with things, that was progress, but since Karma didn't know where I started, he didn't know how far I had come.

[Tinyblu]

WOW!! OP you and I must be cut from the same block!

I grew up in a household where I was the one expected to "hold it together" in crisis, and learned early on to push emotions as far from the forefront as possible.

I am the woman who runs to the bathroom to cry or has a standby smile ready to screw on when time gets tough. I have mastered the art of the game face, but I have found that philosophy will not work in this type (actually it should be in any type) relationship.

As hard as it is to swallow, vulnerablility comes with the territory, and acknowledging and expressing your feelings (and having the freedom and comfort to do so) as they happen seems to work better than allowing them to fester (I learned this the hard way this past weekend)

Take your time and ask for time. No one said this was easy, but I think this poly thing can be rewarding if handled properly.

Best of luck to you!

[nycindie]

The best I can do is say that I feel I can practice with the pain of them snuggling and kissing for a while, and see if I can get to the point where that feels more okay. I have to be able to give them *something*, but there's nothing yet that would actually be easy on me.

And then I wonder, how fair is it to tell them to go ahead and snuggle and kiss, while I in my suffering make them feel bad every time they do? And how frustrating will it be if I promise to try to get comfortable enough for the next stage within a couple of months, but then it takes much longer? You won't make them feel bad. They will feel what they feel. You are taking care of you. Remember, it is you who were wronged, deceived, and betrayed and it is you who are laying the ground rules they must abide by to earn your forgiveness and acceptance in order to move on. They should be grateful and feel blessed by your generosity.

I think your terms of allowing snuggling and kissing is more than a fair place to start.

[sinew]

Thanks, everyone, for the support and advice. It really does help.

Sometimes my husband is great, and sometimes not great. For him, the idea of supporting me is, I think, very tough. He says he feels like he messes up on this front all the time, but that sentiment doesn't seem to actually compel him to work harder at it. There is definitely an element of frustration on his part that what he believes ought to be plenty isn't enough (for me or Juliet, frankly).

I don't know how to effectively ask for more support. Juliet's husband referred me to this article (http://theferrett.livejournal.com/1280419.html) on emotional vs logical arguments, and I've been turning it over in my head for a few days. Admitting irrational emotional responses to things is probably good when you're talking about dirty dishes, but isn't it just annoying if the issue is more subjective?

For example, before my business trip this last week, I was trying hard to not let things with Charlie bother me. I tried to just move on when I felt shot down, tried to remain positive when it felt that he was showing little or no interest in me. It was sort of working. But the night before my flight, I couldn't sleep and finally woke him up to lay out my hurt and anxiety over the way he had been treating me the last few days (since he and Juliet started their 3-week break). I was afraid he was already resenting me. I tried to ask to be reassured and comforted, but it became obvious very quickly that he felt that he was already doing plenty to reassure and comfort me, and we ended up arguing over specific incidents. My interpretation was that I was having to drag him into interacting with me at all, while he felt that he was being supportive and open. I was asking him to show more interest and warmth toward me, and his answer was that I just wasn't seeing all that he already was doing.

In the end, I want to tell him when I'm in pain, but it causes so much confrontation that I dread it, too. It makes him defensive, and that doesn't help either of us.

[nycindie]

Oh, this sounds like a case of differing love languages! There's a popular book - I haven't read it yet - a lot of peeps here are really into it. It's all about the ways we express love and how we want love expressed to us. Or something like that. Anyway, for example, some people need "acts of kindness" or "words of affirmation" to know that their partner is making an effort and expressing love, while others need "physical touch" or some other choices I can't recall now. There are tests to see which you are... when a partner becomes aware of your predominant love language, they see a choice in how to relate. And I've read here that often these things are surprising to the person who feels they've done enough because they expressed it in their love language to you but never thought in a million years that you need it expressed a different way, so you feel it was inadequate.

Quiz here: http://www.afo.net/hftw-lovetest.asp

[GroundedSpirit]

.............
Sometimes my husband is great, and sometimes not great. For him, the idea of supporting me is, I think, very tough. He says he feels like he messes up on this front all the time, but that sentiment doesn't seem to actually compel him to work harder at it. There is definitely an element of frustration on his part that what he believes ought to be plenty isn't enough (for me or Juliet, frankly).
.....................

In the end, I want to tell him when I'm in pain, but it causes so much confrontation that I dread it, too. It makes him defensive, and that doesn't help either of us.

Hi Sinew,

This is one of the hard parts about getting on the same page. Although I haven't personally read the book either, I like NYC's advice to check out that Love Languages title. I've also heard good things about it and maybe something in there can help the ball get rolling.

I suspect you're dealing with 2 things right now and maybe it can help just to identify them together and see what each can do to bridge the gap.

There's likely a male vs female issues here. Men and women think differently in many cases, interpret differently, and work on problems differently. That's neither good nor bad - just different. You each have to make 'allowances' for this WITHOUT letting it become a source of conflict.

There's also the logical vs emotional thing happening. One of you is trying to proceed based more on pure logic and the other struggling more with the emotional conflict. You CAN choose, during any discussion, to only allow one side or the other to be discussed and analyzed. But you MUST take turns addressing both parts so that one or the other isn't slighted. But pick one and start there, work through some stuff - then switch to the other for awhile. I think this will help both build their skills understanding the other side even though your base nature may lean one way or the other.

That make any sense ?

Keep us informed :)

GS

[sinew]

The Love Languages book has been very interesting! I went on a relationship book shopping spree after reading some of that one, heh. There's some interesting research out there that I sure wasn't aware of, and it's eye-opening. At first, I was hesitant to look to mainstream relationship books because I figured they would give me hell about the open marriage concept, but so far at least I've felt very encouraged about how to work on my marriage so that poly can work. I'm sure there's a lot of junk out there, but I've found several books so far that compliment the Love Languages one and don't seem too gimmicky.

The original theme of this thread was whether or not it made sense to hide pain in my situation. I've read a lot in the past few days, and my current perspective is that while hiding it isn't right, becoming too attached to my pain is also something I need to watch for. A lot of the research in the books I'm reading now says that one partner telling the other constantly about how bad they feel invokes a shame reaction in the partner that very often leads to a pattern of defensiveness based on shame. A partner will often take the expression of pain as an accusation of failure, and this may explain why most of my husband's reactions are not sympathetic.

I can definitely relate. My sense of shame and inadequacy is provoked very easily, and viewed from this angle, I think I can understand better why he might be blocking out all the times I've told him about my pain. He's protecting himself, because we as partners aren't in tune enough to be able to share pain right now. I know that each of the times he's told me he's in pain, I've absolutely panicked, believing I'll lose him and be alone. I cope with this by deciding irrationally that I can fix everything, or by withdrawing into depression. I would not be surprised at all to learn that his coping mechanism has more to do with denial and "disproving" what I feel.

In either response, I think we're presenting and dealing with each other's pain poorly, and it's an area I'm going to try my best to find more techniques for handling. I'm realizing I've probably put the cart before the horse in all my efforts to work out my ability to deal with poly. There are a number of prerequisites, and among them are the abilities to express and interpret pain supportively. I have a lot of fear wrapped up in the idea that I won't be able to truly get on board with poly before his patience runs out, but I also realize that where I'm at with my present state of mind isn't right or wrong - it's just reality. And if his patience does run out before I get to where he wants me to be, then our relationship just won't work out. It isn't what I want, but so it goes.

Thank you all for the insights and advice. You have really helped me.

[SNeacail]

I have found that sometimes, we say one thing and our partner hears something else. In which case we are not being effective in our communication, we might as well be speaking different languages. How we express ourselves can make a huge difference in the initial reaction our partner has.

My husband tends to ask "Why?" instead of being sympathetic, putting my on the defensive when I'm already struggling with issues. It can make me feel as if he is calling me an idiot. What I hear is "Why in the Hell would you feel that way, that's just stupid!" There are things that I do that put him on the defensive immediately also (can't remember what they are right now :p). Do a search for Non-Violent communcation, it can make a huge difference. Don't know if there is a tag search on that here, but there is stuff all over the web.

[Mohegan]

What's been really helpful for Karma and I is a conversation like this-

"I am feeling this____. I think it is because of _______."

"Okay I am hearing you say you feel (what, in his words he thinks I am saying) and you think it is b/c of (again his interpretation of what I said.) Is that correct?"

"Yes/No clarification"

"Okay, what can I do to help. What do you need from me to not feel that way/feel better/heal."


It's been hugely helpful. We learned that we spoke totaly different languages. And had completely different definitions of the same word. Doing this made all the difference for us.

The thing is though, Karma is willing to work, to hear me, to help me and I him.

And I totaly agree with you Sinew, when you are only discussing the pain, it is very hard for the spouse to see or hear anything else. Karma and I had to restrict ourselves to certain periods of time. We only discuss the pain for a certain amount of time. Then that's it. For awhile it was even, he can only discuss her for a certain period of time and then not again the rest of the night.

Then we focussed on us.

Eventualy we let go of the time frames, because the wounds were no longer so raw that it was all we talked about it. It was easier to handle bringing things up as we experienced them, b/c we weren't always having to discuss something painful or how horribly he hurt me.

I realised I wasn't recognizing him for the good things. So I made it a point to say Thank you. I also made it a point to say "When you did what I needed and followed my boundries today, that meant alot and rebuilt some trust because now I know I can count on you for that."

I've found that 1000 positive comments can be lost by one negative. I know the negative needs to happen and we have to discuss the hard stuff, so I make sure I am recognizing all the good stuff as well.

Once all of that fell into place, not only was he more patient, but I healed faster and we grew closer.

[polyexplorer]

Hi Sinew,

I just read all the posts in this thread and related to alot of it.

My wife sounds like she is similar to you. She needs lots of space to process her emotions and because of this can tend to repress it as well or struggle to tell me. She has not wanted a poly life. I have realised that I have always been poly but have lived a mono life with her.

She is trying to be OK with the poly life, but she gets very emotional. I can tell it really hurts her. This makes it very difficult for me to truly engage in this life because naturally I don't want to hurt the love of my life. But the longer I keep waiting and not living what I consider to be an authentic life for myself, the more I am hurting too...

So we seem to be stuck right now.

The difficulty that I have with her is that I feel she has not TRULY decided to change her belief systems around poly and therefore does not support poly. I think she feels forced into the decision because she doesn't want to lose me.

Grounded Spirit said in one of the earlier comments about belief systems. I think there is alot of truth to this. Perhaps Charlie and Juliet sense that there is more than just emotions coming out, maybe they feel like me that you have not really chosen poly???? In fact, just the other day my wife said she feels like she has dipped her toe in the water with regards to poly, but not dived in. That's exactly how I feel about how she is!

For my wife and myself, it means that I don't feel like we are on the same page. It means that it is very hard to move forward and it is difficult for me not to resent the fact that she has not been able to make a full decision here.

The question here then is, how does one come to a point of diving in, not just dipping their toe in? I don't think it's a case of just clicking our fingers and saying OK, I'll jump in. The depth of emotions involved is too complex for that.

How does a mono person who has not signed up for a poly life make a decision to fully support and dive into this life (without it necessarily meaning that they live a poly life themselves if they are truly mono)? If I felt like my wife had made this decision and had dived in, I am convinced that things would be different for us, and the painful emotions we experience would not be nearly as intense...

[MonoVCPHG]

How does a mono person who has not signed up for a poly life make a decision to fully support and dive into this life (without it necessarily meaning that they live a poly life themselves if they are truly mono)? If I felt like my wife had made this decision and had dived in, I am convinced that things would be different for us, and the painful emotions we experience would not be nearly as intense...

In order to embrace poly the way you do, she would likely have to be poly...and maybe she is not. If she is mono then what you are asking for is basically like asking a devoted Muslim to embrace Christianity just because it'll make going to church easier for you. You can find a comfortable compromise in a mono/poly relationship but to expect your wife to change how she fundamentally works, to make how you work easier, is a little selfish don't you think?

I've been in a mono/poly relationship for over 2.5 years as the mono and I can tell you I am no closer to completely embracing or fully understanding poly as a way to engage in relationships. I am very happy but I doubt if there could ever be the same type of calm peaceful feeling that a mono relationship can provide. On the other side of the coin I doubt if Redpepper will be able to achieve the same level of understanding and support from me as she does from her Poly husband. But we are happy and committed :D

Keep working and be patient :)

[polyexplorer]

Thanks Mono for your response. I appreciate hearing your perspective...

On the surface it seems that the difference between the place you are at the place my wife is at is that I constantly feel like I am walking on egg shells with anything to do with poly. For example, I know she feels uncomfortable with me even reading this site. I feel her discomfort and pain.

I am not expecting her to embrace the poly life or perhaps even to fully understand it. But I do want her to want it for me. At the moment she is forcing herself to allow it for me but that creates tension for her and me. I am doing my best to give her the space and patience she needs to be where she needs to be at. She is trying hard, but I feel there is a decisive point that she needs to reach that she hasn't yet...

Using your analogy, if I was Muslim and she Christian, I am not wanting her to convert to Muslim, but I want her to be supportive of me being one and wanting this for me because it is important to me.

So my question is, if indeed it is true that she there is a decisive point still to be reached, a tipping point if you like where one can want the poly life for their partner even though they themselves don't want it for themselves, how does this decisive point get reached? Perhaps a complex question, but I'd be interested in responses...

[Minxxa]

I think it's important to realize it make likely take some time to adjust to such a huge shift in perception. Especially if you had a monogamous deal with marraige and are now changing the game rules. To go into a relationship thinking it's one way and then realize it's something different, something that society at large isn't promoting... maybe something against everything you've ever believed... you don't just change your mind and adjust overnight.

I hear you saying that you just want her to be happy for you. I wonder if you realize what that means to her. You want her to change how she feels and what she's always thought, to be happy that you want to have emotional and sexual relationships with other people besides her. That is asking a lot.

What if she said she just wanted you to agree to be monogamous, and be happy with that? Could you adjust to being monogamous, give up your ideas of what you want and who you are for the other person?

I'm only throwing this out because I think that when you try to open an already established mongamous relationship, you have to realize how much change that is, how much work, and for some people it just won't be possible. I think not pushing and giving some time is not so much to ask.

I've heard stories about people who talk about poly and it takes years before they actually open up because it takes the mono person that long to adjust, and for the couple to work on their own relationship to get it strong to the point where poly is possible.

[MonoVCPHG]

So my question is, if indeed it is true that she there is a decisive point still to be reached, a tipping point if you like where one can want the poly life for their partner even though they themselves don't want it for themselves, how does this decisive point get reached? Perhaps a complex question, but I'd be interested in responses...

That's a tough question my friend. Does she really know what you want from poly? Do you? Poly is a such a broad term. Some people find a need to only have one other partner that they fell in love with...others see poly as a philosophical way to live life always open to new relationships. One is easier to come to terms with for a partner who isn't poly I think.

Maybe the decisive point never gets reached and neither of you fully get the completeness you want from this relationship. I want Redpepper to always have her husband....but I am the boyfriend. If I was her husband I doubt if I could ever "want" poly for her. Our situation is vastly different from my perspective.

Patience and lots of talk. If this is something you truly need you have to be willing to assume some risk to achieve it. Gently push for what you want and work through it regardless of what that looks like. Ultimately, both of you need to be healthy, happy and fulfilled.

[sinew]

The idea of limiting the frequency and length of our heavy conversations is probably a good idea. I'm pretty familiar with the better ways to talk out conflict from my professional life, but I've found it pretty hit or miss in this situation. Charlie wants me to get better, but feels helpless and I feel frustrated because my practical suggestions aren't in the spirit of what he wants. I suggest things like schedules and boundaries, and he says it's too complicated (which is probably true). What I really need to do is to "come around" to poly, and while he wants to give me time, he also doesn't want to hear that it could be a long, long time.

I have to agree with Minxxa's comments on Polyexplorer's situation. It would behoove poly folks who are trying to bring their mono partners around that this is no easier for the mono to want the relationship you envision than for you to want the relationship they envision. It seems like an impasse. I know that's how it has felt to me.

Polyexplorer, if your wife is like me, if she is trying, I implore you to celebrate that. If she is finding that she can open just a little bit to the idea, be grateful. Let her know you realize and are proud of how brave she is trying to be for you. If you can find a way to let this struggle bring you closer, you may find that she is able to adjust more easily than if she is feeling pressured. I virtually guarantee you that she can sense your impatience, and that is contributing to her discomfort. Here she is dipping a toe in what (for her) is water that's quite possibly infested with sharks, and you are making her feel bad for not being able to jump in.

Regarding the idea of a decisive point, I have some experience with that. I'm used to being able to put my mind to something and make it happen. I decide, and it stays decided. I've written pages and pages of instructions to myself, copied poems and passages, created flash cards (yes, geeky), and listened to tapes about letting go of negative emotion every day for months. I have tried like hell to decide to want poly for my husband, and it just doesn't work that way. It makes my heart ache in ways I've never felt before, and I am not an emotional person. I've even tried to just say to hell with all the problems I've still got with it, and I'll just be "in", for better and for worse. I don't recommend that approach.

[nycindie]

the idea of setting boundaries still fills me with dread. How do I select which things I'm supposed to be accepting and which I'm not when I can't promise not to be upset by any of them? . . .

I'm working to overcome bitterness about the affair, a lifelong problem with jealousy . . . And I know they don't want to wait that long, so we're all going to have to learn to live with pain somehow...

. . . while hiding it isn't right, becoming too attached to my pain is also something I need to watch for.

. . . I have a lot of fear wrapped up in the idea that I won't be able to truly get on board with poly before his patience runs out

Charlie wants me to get better . . . I suggest things like schedules and boundaries, and he says it's too complicated (which is probably true). What I really need to do is to "come around" to poly, and while he wants to give me time, he also doesn't want to hear that it could be a long, long time.

. . . I have tried like hell to decide to want poly for my husband, and it just doesn't work that way. It makes my heart ache in ways I've never felt before . . .

The thing that strikes me most about your posts, and especially the passages I've quoted above, is how much you keep seeing your process as a problem, as if you're not getting it right or good enough, and how bad you feel that you aren't able to give Charlie what he wants as quickly as he wants it. I think more compassion for yourself is in order.

The fact is that Charlie took what he wanted already, had his cake and ate it too, dishonestly, and just because you are agreeing to consider poly doesn't give him license to have a tantrum because he wants you to move more quickly. This is a trauma you are recovering from. I feel that Charlie should be doing everything he can to earn your trust again. He needs to really see the beauty of your forgiveness and how much you have given him already just in that. If he and Juliet have something so great, it can wait for you and Charlie to repair what broke between you -- but HE has major work to do on the relationship he has with you. It shouldn't all be up to you.

That being said, I really like your comment about being watchful for those moments you become attached to your pain. This is such an important awareness. It's like how a kid learns to get attention (bear with my analogy): kid falls down, scrapes his knee, it stings a little. He whimpers a bit, then starts to get up, only to realize that none of the adults around him noticed. Wants to be fussed over, so gets back down and starts to cry until someone comes over. With all the attention he receives, kid starts focusing on his boo-boo and now it really hurts! This establishes a pattern of making some noise/creating drama and developing an attachment to pain to get attention. The kid, now an adult, still does it automatically, in some fashion, in all his relationships -- until he becomes aware. Then he has a choice.

The fact is that pain ebbs and flows, and real organic emotions rise of their own accord. When we dwell on certain thoughts over and over, we can manufacture emotions and hang on to them -- and doing that is a manifestation of attachment. It's good to look at our motives. The trick is to honor our process and know that sometimes it will feel like you've moved on, and then other times there will be sadness or what-have-you, but you need to find a balance between having patience for yourself and not giving into self-indulgence. This is a big challenge for myself, personally, as well.

[polyexplorer]

Thanks for the comments from different people...

I am very aware that it is a huge shift to move from a mono upbringing to a poly one. I certainly don't expect that to shift overnight. We have been working through this for six years now, so I also don't think it's a patience thing either.

I think that what I can do better is to let go of any sense of pressure or expectation. That's what I want to do for my wife.

The place that we are stuck is about deciding what we want. I have decided. I now know that to be true to myself that I am poly. If my wife decided that she definitely wanted to be in a mono marriage and have someone love her and only her at an intimate level, (and this is a perfectly legitimate thing to want) then I would have to say to her that I am not the person who can provide that for her.

We love each other deeply, so this makes things really difficult for my wife. On the one hand she does want a mono marriage, on the other hand she recognises my capacity and desire to love more than one, and also sees that this is good for me and deep down realises that I cannot keep going in a relationship that does not allow me to express this love to others. So in her mind the only choices are to get on board with poly or let me go. Not an easy choice! The difficulty is she is yet to fully make that choice. The difficulty for me is to give her the space and freedom she needs to come to that choice, when the longer this stalemate keeps going on the more pain I feel...

Time and space will reveal all...

[just3]

Ok I have typed, deleted, typed again, deleted again. And well without writing a novel to spit out my POV...lol its like this.
TRUST- Once broken its very hard to mend. Like a pretty glass bowl glued back together you will always see the cracks.

My husband is my life.(well throw our rugrats in there too) I was sitting here reading this and well..I guess I was a lil shocked lol. A few points here..
1- If my hubs cheated on me or I him.. it would be over in a flat second. That is a huge no no in our house. Being dishonest and breaking trust is something we dont stand for with each other. I dont tolerate lying from my kids wouldnt want to wonder if the adult was being honest everyday.
2- My husband is my protector- That being said. He would NEVER force me into a situation I was not comfortable with. Whether that be poly or otherwise. I wouldnt ask him to change just as he wouldnt ask me. We discussed becoming poly. And I didnt agree for a year. And this was for me to have a partner not him.
3- I wouldnt hide my pain. If something hurts I get it out rather than let it fester. If you are not comfortable in this lifestyle you shouldnt do it. Simple as that.
4. Dont change just to make someone else happy- The SO that want to be poly with mono partners.. well.. In the end why force a square peg in a round hole just to make you happy. I spent many years when I was younger(Im talking kid and teen tol old for that BS now) being someone I wasnt to please parents, and so called friends..etc. No way I could do that as a adult. Its hard enough to go through the emotions of feeling your not wanted anymore or you dont please your partner anymore without saying relationship will be over if you dont do what I want in this... Thus reaffirming those horrible feelings the partner was feeling because there you pretty much say. Your not good enough you dont please me.

Ok off my soapbox... Just some insight from a insecure female who felt every ounce of this.
Chris

[sinew]

You're right, nycindie, self-compassion is something I need to spend more effort on. It gets buried very quickly when I feel under pressure. And forgetting to show compassion for myself sets me up to make stupid decisions that I will regret.

Polyexplorer, I definitely respect that you've had the patience to work on this for 6 years. I have to say that if I try to get myself to accept my husband's poly life for that long and still can't to cope without suffering, I'd be gone. It would be terribly, terribly hard, but it would be the most compassionate thing for both of us. I don't disagree with his decision or yours. But after 6 years struggling, it may be time to accept that we aren't compatible, and that if we truly want happiness for each other, we should let go.

Just3, I love your conviction. :) I miss feeling so sure. I suppose everyone thinks they know what they'd do if they discovered their partner having an affair. But I would point out that as much as you hate lying from your children, you don't actually disown them when they do it. You might wish you could, especially when it's something very bad, but in the end love compels you to try and forgive. I think it's a lot like that, and that may be why more women forgive their cheating partners than men forgive their cheating partners.

Ironically, one of the first people I told about the affair, a long time friend whose convictions about fidelity are very strong, told me a couple of weeks ago that his wife had just admitted cheating. I felt terrible for him, but wondered if the same desire to repair the relationship would kick in for him they way it did for me. I know he loved his wife deeply. Alas, he looks at her now like a completely different person, and the divorce papers have been filed. It's just interesting how differently people respond to this kind of emotional event.

[just3]

Just3, I love your conviction. :) I miss feeling so sure. I suppose everyone thinks they know what they'd do if they discovered their partner having an affair. But I would point out that as much as you hate lying from your children, you don't actually disown them when they do it. You might wish you could, especially when it's something very bad, but in the end love compels you to try and forgive. I think it's a lot like that, and that may be why more women forgive their cheating partners than men forgive their cheating partners.



LOL I wish I was sure all the time. But many days Im flying by the seat of my pants and hoping the day turns out well.
No I cant disown the kids. (tempting when I have a preteen right now.....) I think your right that forgiveness is possible. Its not forgotten. I have been cheated on before and it hurt and yeah.. I tried to forgive. I tried to move on. And honestly.. I would have.. If it werent for all the other lies mixed in. My kids know its a lot of work to make up for the lie no matter how small. Same goes for a adult. I give allowances to kids because their motivation is a childish one and children are impulsive. Adults...well its a lot harder to give allowances because they are..well adults. Most kids dont have a conscience so when they lie its just a self serving thing that most the time they dont realize its going to affect someone else. And thats what we teach the kids. Adults have already out grown this. Or should lol. I have known many people my age who I swear were never taught anything about that lol.
I say good luck! You seem to be a very strong person and your heart seems to be very caring. Its very brave to come ask for help and insight. And the advice here is wonderful. I have used it many times :)
Chris