Relationship structures, triads, unicorns and all that

[Ceoli]

So on Violet's thread I started talking a bit about how I've seen many poly-fi triads break down. In my post I was talking about how many times, being attached to only ONE relationship formation can sometimes limit it's ability to succeed. I went on to talk about something I've often seen in poly-fi triads.

I'm going to quote what I said in that post:

(this next bit might come off as an indictment against all poly-fi triads or couples seeking poly-fi triads. As with most everything in life, I know that this does not apply to ALL couples or ALL triads. I acknowledge that poly-fi triads are something that can be successful and couples can bring in a third for lots of long term happiness. I'm sure there will be couples who read this who think "Oh, that's not how it is with US" Fair enough. It may not apply to you. But I'm also willing to be that there will be a fair number of couples who think it doesn't apply to them when it does)


Honestly, when I see a couple that's new to poly and seeking a third to "complete them" or to "be an equal partner" I see a couple that feels the need to control the other love that might enter into their partner's life. It's like they're saying, "Sure, my partner can fall in love with someone else, but ONLY if I am explicitly involved so that I may have control over my partner's love and so that love will always have something to do with me too, no matter what." Now, I know this isn't always true for every couple, but I do believe it to be true for many, if not most couples that are seeking this dynamic. One need only to see the vast number of unicorns who have been burned by such situations to have an inkling that perhaps this isn't the best way to go about things. We've all heard it before and every couple seems to say the same thing. "we want you to be an equal partner in our relationship", "we just have so much love to give, we have to share it with someone else". Etc, etc. Most of them end the same way- the unicorn is cast off with burn scars and everyone is off licking their wounds. And I've yet to meet a single poly bi female who's been through this (and I've personally known quite a few) who gets up after the experience and says "Wow, I want to try that again!". This is why unicorns are so rare.


Now, again, I want to stress that I don't believe that poly-fi triads are all doomed or that they can't be wonderful fulfilling relationships for everyone involved. I do know a couple of triads that are lovely and amazing in how they carry out their relationship. But I have to admit I do a tiny little facepalm to myself every time I hear about a couple that just decided to become poly and are now looking for that third to "complete them".

I think many times, people (mono, poly and everything in between) become very invested in specific relationship outcomes. I certainly know I've done this before. But the trouble is whenever we throw our energy into building a specific relationship structure, it puts undue pressure on the relationship. It constricts the natural ways a relationship may want to develop. This particularly happens with newly formed poly-fi triads. So much pressure gets put on the relationship to be this wonderful equal partnership of three people that when something indicates that maybe that's not right for everyone, it explodes into a mess of hurt feelings and loneliness. There are other ways for relationships to succeed. Maybe the closed triad should evolve into a V of some sort, or maybe the triad should remain a triad but opening up to each member having other partners, or maybe the third needs to let go of the pressure of being equal and relax into some kind of secondary relationship...who knows? There are all sorts of ways to approach things. But if it becomes an "all or nothing" scenario, it automatically dis-allows most other outcomes that may indeed be the solution, thus creating a much larger possibility of failure.

I also think there is another piece to this. As I mentioned in the other post, I've known quite a few couples who started off in their poly lives looking for the closed poly-fi triad. Of the couples that I know personally, they are all either monogamous or open and dating separately now. The only two stable triads I know were among people who had been poly for quite some time and were already openly dating others before deciding to close their triads and be fidelitous.

I think couples who are new to opening up their relationships see the closed triad as the most secure way to open up. It's a way people can hang onto their partners and still feel a certain amount of control over their partner's love for another person. Ironically, I think it can sometimes be the most insecure way to open up as it seems to be pre-assigning a structure designed to accommodate insecurity.

I generally feel that if people try to assuage their insecurity by assigning rules and structures around them, generally it does nothing to get rid of them, but rather enables them to remain. Or as Franklin of Xeromag fame will often say- if your relationship is healthy and good, you won't need all those rules and boundaries. If your relationship is not healthy and good, extra rules and boundaries won't save it. That's not to say that some rules aren't good. We all need them for certain things. But generally, I have to wonder when couples say they're new to poly and want a third, why do they want that particular thing? Is it because it genuinely feels like the right thing or is it a way to try to get around insecurity about opening up the relationship?

Again, I know that this doesn't apply to all couples who are seeking thirds but I have seen enough of a pattern to see that it probably applies to many, even if they think it doesn't apply to them. I don't think it's inherently wrong to seek or want a closed triad like that. I'm just wondering if all are going about it for healthy reasons.

(ducking for cover now!)

[NightDragon]

First let me say "Thank you"!!

Next I will say, our relationship is not even a triad relationship. It is a V and I feel that a lot of the aspects you're saying apply for us. Or more specificly me.

I am having a huge issue with Dragonfly falling "IN" love with DragonBorn in less then 2 months since the start of this relationship. There are several reasons for that which I'm not sure would be ok to share or even if I'm comfortable with sharing them yet to all. It has brought out trust issues that I'm having. Fear for loosing the woman I have come to love above all else. And more. Just a lot of negative feelings and emotions.

Thanks to several of you here that have said to not just myself but to a lot of others, that it is ok to feel and have these emotions. I have slowly started to accept that instead of beating the shit out of myself for having these feelings. Thinking I was wrong to feel this way.

Now the problem I am having is trying to find a way for this to work, that doesn't manipulate how they feel about each other. I will be honest, if I had a magic wand... I would not want DF to be "IN" love with DB. But I know that she does. So because she does I don't want to change that. Now also let me say that surprisingly, I don't have any issues with DB being "IN" love with DF. I am also having amazingly HUGE issues with their alone time. And OMG I thank them so much for understanding and saying that they are ok with only spending time together when it's all of us. I feel bad, because I know that they want their alone time just the two of them. But for right now, I am not handling well at all. I get to caught up in my head, wondering what they're doing, what's being said, etc... I'm get afraid wondering when I come home is all my stuff going to be outside with a note saying I'm not wanted anymore. Yeah, crazy I know. But from what I'm learning fear is rarely based off reality.

I just wanted to add this, and I'm sure I will add more later, but I'm kinda on a deadline, and have the "Dragon" family as we've been called are getting to meet HMA and Vi for a late dinner. Hopefully both families can become close and be there for each other with helping hands in times like these. :-)

[aussielover]

This thread wasn't quite what I was expecting, so not sure what to add here. Especially as our relationship does not fit into the catagory of the primaries 'opening their relationship' to find me.
At this point I really don't have much to add here, but possibly if things take a different turn I may.

[Ceoli]

AL, it sounds like you have some stuff to say anyway! Start a thread :)

[aussielover]

lol I'm not sure what to say. :p
I'm quite an introvert and usually don't speak up without being asked (downside, especially when in a poly relationship... I'm working on that) or in response to something else. I wouldn't know where to start.

[HappiestManAlive]

I think this is fantastic, and don't know why you would "duck for cover" Ceoli. Frankly, it's kind of what we've come to conclusion-wise after all the wiggling around, lol. When everyone worries about titles and labels and position, things are forced to happen or not happen other than how they might have on their own. Let the relationship define itself; deal with the issues as they arise, follow it down the rabbit hole. :)

Nice to meet you guys tonight ND! I hope we can do it again sometime! Anne gets back Monday, so either then (I seem to recall Mondays being good) or next weekend and we'll all be there. :)

[ImaginaryIllusion]

But the trouble is whenever we throw our energy into building a specific relationship structure, it puts undue pressure on the relationship. It constricts the natural ways a relationship may want to develop.
<snip>
... if it becomes an "all or nothing" scenario, it automatically dis-allows most other outcomes that may indeed be the solution, thus creating a much larger possibility of failure.


This is awesome stuff Ceoli. I need to start saving nuggets like this for future reference...which gives me an idea....mwahahaa!:cool:

Cheers.

[ladyjools]

i have to totally agree with everything you are saying

i think its really difficult to find someone that both partners will fall in love with equally, every relationship is diffrent and unique and i think putting any structure on things will limit the natural progression,

we have never looked for a third,
but then we don't really have a lot of rules, rather than rules and structure we just keep talking and comunicating about the way things are devoping and see how we feel as the develop, this freedom means that we are spending less time stressing about things not fitting the way we might have expected and just letting it be
at the moment it developing into a V, between me and my 2 guys
but possibily a third guy and im not sure what that would be, a W lol?

Jools

[ImaginaryIllusion]

at the moment it developing into a V, between me and my 2 guys
but possibily a third guy and im not sure what that would be, a W lol?

Jools

Probably more like a Y with you in the nexus.

Not to worry, after 3-4 people are it's hard to visualize configurations in the abstract with letters or shapes and the cluster just becomes the Artist Formerly Known as Prince. ;)

[ladyjools]

i tried to draw a digarame to explain how things are to a friend
it just looked way to complicated, when you take into consideration C has a partner and me and her are also intamite
i dont' see it as complicated or messy in a bad way, i see it as having lots of people around me that love and care for each other, not all are intamite but thats ok,

i think i hate structure though
i like freedom to let things happen as the happen, it saves a lot of stress if we have no idea how things are going to turn out then we are not disapointed or stressed when they don't turn out how they expect, :) and i could never have imagined the way things are turning out now, there is no way i could ever have planned it this way and yet i am really glad that this is the way it is :)

Jools

[LovingRadiance]

Don't duck and run Ceoli-you rock!
This is awesome. I can't even digest it all right now-but it makes me smile anyway!!!
I'm not going to really comment yet-I want to chew on the thoughts for a bit. :)

[HappiestManAlive]

[zombie voice]MMMMmmmm - braaaiiinnnsss... [/zombie voice]

[redpepper]

lady jools, I like the Y myself if it fits... mine is a "V" with a floating "dot" that adds itself to me and my husband every now and then....and now Mono in the form of a friend.... what the heck would that be?!!! believe me, my tersiary or my "fancy" as he likes to call himself is really in a class of his own... hard to explain and really not important....

Thanks for starting this Ceoli! no need to duck! your thread has five stars already! I suspect I know who added that... ahum, HMA? perhaps?

Anyway, me here in our "V" thinks that there is no real "V" except where sex is concerned. and even so that is loose. as we all have sex together sometimes anyway.... anyways.... Mono, I think, begs to differ on this one, but I really think that there is no way around not having a relationship "triad." Even if my two men are not together they have a close relationship and a common bond in me. Even in the last "V" I was in with my ex girlfriend, when it was my now husband as the secondary, we still had a close bond between the three of us.

I kind of see it as an elastic rubber band on three points,... those points move around and the band stretches. Sometimes I find myself closer to one of my men than the other and sometimes I find myself far from both of them and they are closer. It depends on the circumstance and what is going on in our lives.

For example, when there is stuff to be done around the house and the two men are working on it, I am most definitely not close to them. I look admiringly from a distance. If I stay at Mono's house I become very close to him and we seem to meld into one sometimes.... after a time I start to "jones" for my husband and long to be near him again. I go home and am happy to be close to him again....

This can last for longer periods of time too. Right now I feel very close to Mono as he and I have had some ups and downs and I have been supporting him through some personal stuff as of late. Husband and I are happily swimming along in our merry life and there is no need to process anything right now.

I have learned, in time, that there is no need to be concerned when I am not as in touch with one or the other because it all comes around. Mono needs my full attention right now and having expressed this to my husband, who agrees I should do my best to be there as much as I can, I am free to be available to him. Because the two men are invested in not only knowing each other, but "loving" each other, they are willing to give to the other in the form of ME. The beauty of it is that I can relax in the company of the one with the least amount of stuff going on after :p (really I love all of it immensely, or I just wouldn't do it!).

When there is stuff going on for me, as there was with my parents recently in our coming out, the two of them rise to the occasion and fiercely protect me and look after my best interest. Sometimes in the form of talking me through stuff and sometimes just in listening and doing nice things for me. There was even one occasion that they came together and approached me about leaving a lover of mine that was not suitable.

So, to get back to Ceoli's post, what is the big deal about a firm triad situation... is it not possible, as Ceoli says, to let the flow of the relationship lead the way? If a "V" works better in the long run, then why not?!

I hear of so many people looking for a "triad" with a unicorn because they think their love is so special it should be shared, that it quite frankly makes me want to wretch. Like the third is a puppy or something.... all relationship styles are hard work and life changing to anyone in them. Why not keep the definitions (such as triad or "V") as a tool to express what one wants rather than set it all in stone. It makes more sense to me to keep an open mind and stay true to our OWN paths (not co-dependent ones :eek:) rather than inflict a definition on the whole thing from the get go.

[HappiestManAlive]

Actually no, I don't usually bother rating or tagging threads. If I had, I would have given it 5, lol...

I gotta get to work in 7 hours and pick Anne up at the airport an hour later and I'm not even remotely ready for bed. *sigh* WHY am I awake and online? :rolleyes:

[aussielover]

Most of this really has nothing to do with OUR situation, as none of us were actively seeking a poly relationship. They weren't considering 'opening' their relationship and I wasn't looking for a couple to be a part of.

One bit of your post does resonate a bit. As I've read a lot about being 'equal'.



So much pressure gets put on the relationship to be this wonderful equal partnership of three people that when something indicates that maybe that's not right for everyone, it explodes into a mess of hurt feelings and loneliness. There are other ways for relationships to succeed. Maybe the closed triad should evolve into a V of some sort, or maybe the triad should remain a triad but opening up to each member having other partners, or maybe the third needs to let go of the pressure of being equal and relax into some kind of secondary relationship...who knows? There are all sorts of ways to approach things. But if it becomes an "all or nothing" scenario, it automatically dis-allows most other outcomes that may indeed be the solution, thus creating a much larger possibility of failure.


I can not fathom a triad being equal right off the bat (unless three uninvolved people came together at roughly the same time). I never expected that coming into this relationship. The primary relationship (as much as I hate these terms) is the primary relationship. Period. Perhaps as the relationship grows and evolves over several years things may become more balanced and end up more equal (we were actually having this discussion yesterday amungst the three of us ), but I really don't think it's realistic to expect that from any persons perspective in the triad at the start.

The third is the third. I joined the relationship last. That's just how it is. Like it or not, it's reality. There were also things I knew I would be excluded from (ie the work holiday they went on last weekend). And that's ok, because I KNEW that it would be that way. I may not like it all the time, but that's how it is. I don't expect this to change just because I'm here. The primary relationship has to be strong and healthy for any triad to work (or any V for that matter). My relationship with either of them could be wonderful, but if they're are issues between them, things wont be right. There will be tension and things will start to fray and fall apart if they're not addressed.

Perhaps I'm going off on a tangent here, but I so rarely do I shall just let my thoughts flow on this subject.

In our relationship, I fully accept that I am the third. That doesn't mean I always come last, or I'm not loved. It does however sometimes mean that the needs of the primary relationship will have to come first if there is something serious that needs to be delt with. It's not easy being the third. Defenately not. But none of the postitions are easy. Both the people in the primary relationship have to come to terms with sharing the other with someone new (assuming they're just starting in the poly world), which as I've seen can be difficult. No one said this type of relationship would be easy. You can try to figure out everything that may come up, but there will be things you've never thought of suddenly appear and have to be dealt with. There's also a whole nother person's feelings, needs, etc to think about on top of the two of a mono relationship.

Another difficult thing I will say about being the third is the occasional times where you just can't help a situation and have to sit and wait it out. There may be an issue that has nothing to do with you that needs to be delt with in the priamary relationship. This can be aggonizing. You feel helpless, unsure, worried etc. It's hard to sit back and wait for others to sort through things when the outcome greatly effects you as well.

As for the structure of a relationship not being flexable enough to change if needed, I know in our situation, it wouldn't happen. For us, it IS all or nothing, and that's just how it is. I can't imagine us having a V, no matter who the hinge is. I love both of them too much to give up one or the other, and I've always said that I will walk away if their relationship is deteriorating to the point of breaking up because of me. And I would. As much as it would kill me to do so.
I think in some situations, it just wouldn't work for things to change. I don't feel we're putting SO much effort into making sure this particular type of relationship works out. It's just the way our realtionship is. I don't think it's wrong, and I don't think it's bad that we can't or wont consider a different structure. Perhaps this is because of the manner in which the three of us came together.


So this ended up being a lot longer than I anticipated, and I might even have forgotten some things along the way. Mostly it's my perspective on a triad, and the thirds position in it. Being new to the poly world, and not even knowing about it until we were already in it, makes it all a learning experience for us. And of course it's not all been smooth sailing, but we're weathering the storms when they come and isn't that the whole point? Get through the rough patches and there will be clear skies ahead.

I'll end this for now.

OH! I lied... I have one more thing to say. It's not anything that was brought up in this post, but previous ones. About the third having the most to lose.
I don't necissarily think that's always true. I think it all depends on how the relationship has ended, who's decision it was and a lot of other factors in the relationship.

In ours, I DO have a shitload to lose if this relationship were to end. I've moved halfway around the world, sold all of my belongings, left my job there (as shitty as it was), would be completely broken hearted. I would be alone. The first two of these points makes it more difficult for me than for a normal person. For them, yes they would still have each other, but (from my perspective) a big issue would be the kids well being. I love them and they love me. They would not understand if I was gone all of a sudden. This for me is a huge one. I know there would be other issues for them, and they can share thoughts on that if they wish but I think that the kids are a big big big one. For me at least.

now I'm done for the time being.

[heartbt]

lol I'm not sure what to say. :p
I'm quite an introvert and usually don't speak up without being asked (downside, especially when in a poly relationship... I'm working on that) or in response to something else. I wouldn't know where to start.

Kinda new around here, but I would have to say when Aussie gets started She (sorry :| )finishes beautifully. Well said.

For my $.02 Structure is fine, defining the relationship has many merits, guidelines can be a source of strength for relationships BUT rigid anything is likely going to hurt someone, if not everyone. Relationships are dynamic and always moving with the emotions and day to day ebb and flow of life. Rigidity will either be broken down, or remain standing with nothing left.

</end hippy talk>

[rolypoly]

What does poly-fi mean? Sorry if the answer is in here, I don't have the brain the read through all of these posts right now. :p

[Ceoli]

Poly-fi is shorthand for polyfidelity. Basically it's a relationship with more than two people, but the people in the relationship don't seek additional partners outside of the structure they have. It can be a poly-fi triad, a V a quad, or lots of other formations. The key is that all have agreed to close that formation to outside people.

[rolypoly]

Ohh, of course. Thanks Ceoli, I didn't make the connection with the abbreviation.

[aussielover]

Kinda new around here, but I would have to say when Aussie gets started he finishes beautifully. Well said.
</end hippy talk>


psssssst! She.... but thank you.

[sweetie]

I agree with RP, and AL, on so many levels. I have considered myself the third. I have felt like the third, and I certainly know I "look" like the third when we go out in public. At the same time I know that both Sea and Tommy have also taken turns at being the third. Sea becomes the third when Tommy and I are alone together. When we meet for coffee, go for walks, or sit on a park bench and talk for hours. Tommy becomes the third, when Sea and I stay up all night talking. Having those hard conversations. Conversations he wasn't apart of, and only hears secondhand what was said. We have all been the third at one time or another, and we have all felt left out, at one time or another.

Instead of seeing each of as "the" third, we now see each other as "a" third. Tommy can't possibly love the two of us the same way. We don't look like each other, talk like each other, or think like each other. We are individuals. Not mirrors of each other. There are things that Sea possesses in her personality, that I don't have in mine, and visa versa. It is our differences that attracts him. This last year we have been searching for a balance. Some days the scales become tipped one way or another, and we have to go searching for it again. But we never stop looking for it.

[Ceoli]

I like the idea of that kind of natural geometry you speak of. People change and their needs change throughout a relationship..sometimes from day to day and sometimes over many years. The relationships that thrive (poly and mono) are the ones who's shape can shift and change with the needs of the people in it.

It reminds me of one of the major principles of balance in the Yoga that I practice. Basically, in my practice when we do balance poses, one thing that we must first accept is that true balance and equilibrium do not exist in our reality but only as a compass for us as we seek balance out. When in balance poses, it's not about attaining the balance, but in allowing our intelligent bodies to shift and adjust to the changing imbalances. If you stiffen up and try to hold the pose, you fall. If you shift and wobble as your balance shifts, you're more able to hold your pose.

That is one element I've seen in all successful relationships, regardless of their geometry.

[rosevett]

THANK YOU for saying this and I'm sure there are things that will get picked apart I haven't been on a board yet that doesn't give us all reason to think we need to duck.

I had to touch base a couple times on the thread, I also thought it was something different but was pleasantly surprised at the reality of life in the face of those making the rules.

I also understand that some people NEED those rules, my Richard was one of them when we started not so much on the partner that we would pick but rules in general....I stood by my feelings and kept it clear that these rules are for you comfort and we will revisit them soon, as they are not my desire.

I have to say that I am always amused, in a sad way, when I read the post about those that are just opening their relationship or creating a new relationship and that is the GOAL...are relationships GOALS? But then I think differently then alot of people and am not very versed in typing it out...now meet me in person I'll talk you in a circle.

Well back to checking out the forums..this is awesome and I notice relatively new..we have started on very similiar in NY for the upstate folks..great minds I guess :)

[SchrodingersCat]

Ceoli, I thank you for posting this so clearly. For some reason, I've had a hard time wrapping my head around a lot of these concepts. Now that I'm starting to "get it," this is really helpful in understanding the underlying problem that so many people are having on this forum, with "my triad just isn't working the way I wanted it to!"

While you're not talking about the primary/secondary thing here, I think the same notions apply. All these things, primary/secondary/triad "roles", hinge on having a pre-conceived notion of what a relationship should be. Ironically enough, while I always rejected that notion in the context of dating in general, I for some reason grasped onto it for the purpose of polyamory. I think I falsely believed that explicit guidelines on behaviour could somehow mitigate potential damage and heartache within existing relationships, not realizing that these prescriptions were more likely to cause it than prevent it.

In my own past, I've always had the best relationships when I wasn't looking for them, because then they were free to develop on their own. And a lot of them just plain didn't develop. Looking back, I'm grateful that I wasn't trying to force them to because I would have spent a lot of time in dead-end unhappy relationships.

We've all known people, poly or mono, who were in love with "the idea" of a significant other, and were willing to slot anyone remotely appropriate into that role. The same way that some people just need to be single to learn how to be themselves, it seems that some couples just need to be couples to learn how they relate to one another, before they'll be capable of having healthy relationships outside that pairing...

I hear of so many people looking for a "triad" with a unicorn because they think their love is so special it should be shared, that it quite frankly makes me want to wretch. Like the third is a puppy or something....

My knee-jerk reaction would be "if you have so much love to share with a third, then have a baby!" Then you have every right to slot that third into the "role" of child, without having to treat them like an "equal." (obviously kids need to be treated with love, dignity and respect, but to me that's different from equality)

[spaz6979]

I hear of so many people looking for a "triad" with a unicorn because they think their love is so special it should be shared, that it quite frankly makes me want to wretch. Like the third is a puppy or something.... all relationship styles are hard work and life changing to anyone in them. Why not keep the definitions (such as triad or "V") as a tool to express what one wants rather than set it all in stone. It makes more sense to me to keep an open mind and stay true to our OWN paths (not co-dependent ones :eek:) rather than inflict a definition on the whole thing from the get go.

This saddens me to hear you say that for me we have just found without that third person we feel something is missing that third makes us feel whole we would never treat someone in our relationship differently she is an equal in the relationship with an equal say and voice.

Sure maybe not at the beginning of the relationship but relationships are built on trust and once we feel she wont leave us for a "normal" relationship we will never let her go... we just want to find her and one day we hopefully will

We would never treat them "like a puppy" but maybe thats just who we are I have never met another "triad" relationship so I suppose i have no frame of reference.

[ClariceK]

I can not fathom a triad being equal right off the bat (unless three uninvolved people came together at roughly the same time). I never expected that coming into this relationship. The primary relationship (as much as I hate these terms) is the primary relationship. Period. Perhaps as the relationship grows and evolves over several years things may become more balanced and end up more equal (we were actually having this discussion yesterday amungst the three of us ), but I really don't think it's realistic to expect that from any persons perspective in the triad at the start.

The third is the third. I joined the relationship last. That's just how it is. Like it or not, it's reality. There were also things I knew I would be excluded from (ie the work holiday they went on last weekend). And that's ok, because I KNEW that it would be that way. I may not like it all the time, but that's how it is. I don't expect this to change just because I'm here. The primary relationship has to be strong and healthy for any triad to work (or any V for that matter). My relationship with either of them could be wonderful, but if they're are issues between them, things wont be right. There will be tension and things will start to fray and fall apart if they're not addressed.

.


I have to agree with this 100%. In our triad there are things that DO pertain to only the two of us who are married (DaJoshy and I). There are things that he talks to me about that he doesnt bring up to SluttyUnicorn not because it isnt her business or anything like that, but because she isnt his "confidant" like I as his wife of 15 years is. If she is around when he comes home from work, he will talk about work, but it is very rare that she really comments on much of anything about his work. A big part of this is because she doesnt really know what exactly he is talking about much of the time as she doesnt really know the people (she has met some of his closer work friends, but that was in limited social situations) and I know that even in that situation she felt a little "left out" because while hubby, his friends from work and I stood there and talked about his work (I also worked at the company for a short time, so I know the terminology, I know what he is talking about when he is talking about things) and she was silent the entire time because there was nothing she could interject. It happens.

I told SU when this issue of "equality" came up that Joshy and I have been married for 15 years, this relationship can last 15 years and we still will have been together 30 and she only 15. It is like the LittleGirl saying that she wants to be the same age as her mommy. She can ask for that till she is blue in the face, and I can want her to be as old as her mommy all I want also, but well shit in one hand and want in the other....

I think that it is important not to nessecarily "reassert the primary relationship is primary" but to have it clear that there will be things that are about the primary relationship and not about the secondary.

The situation came up about 2 months ago that Joshy wanted to go north to visit his family alone. While I have been to the same state as his family is in to visit my family alone, I always go because of presure from my family (we bought you a ticket for this date, if you dont come we will be out the money...." thing so I feel guilty and I go and have a miserable time wishing Joshy was with me and doing every single thing I am doing.

Joshy wanted to fly north and rent a car to visit his family. I told him I wanted to go with him. He said he didnt want me to come. I explained that if I came we could use one of my moms cars and hve a vehicle withut having to rent a car (which would have actually cost him 2 times the price to just get me a ticket) and a argument that went on for over a week ensued. It was a daily fight between the two of us. SU was left to sit there and listen to us fight because either way she wasnt going. It didnt pertain to her, and she would be staying behind either with me or without me. Joshy isnt going (he said we couldnt afford for him to go, but I suspect that rather then argue anymore about it he just backed down and decided not to go, which in itself also bothers me because if that is the case then the real issue of why he wanted to travel alone hasnt been resolved) but I have also let it go because well, he isnt going.

I made the mistake once of saying that if I was angry with DaJosh then he wasnt allowed to have sex with SU. This was a rule I made up because I thought that it would create a dynamic in which I am the "nagging wife who cut him off" and she is the "young new girlfriend who he goes to and doesnt bother him about things like I do because she isnt his wife" and that he would begin to choose her over me because well she never said anything negative to or about DaJoshy because as she herself admitted "I am not about to rock the boat and get him mad at me".

This did bother me for a while because I felt as if she essentially blew smoke up his butt all day long that he would decide that I didnt appreciate him or that I was "mean" compared to her, but when ti comes down to it, I have much more right to say what he does or doesnt do. Equality is a nice dream but it is a rarity.

Even in raising LittleGirl, she is SU daughter. I have come up with a number of different ideas for things pertaining to her, and I have always run ever single one of them by her. As far as that relationship goes, the primary relationship ther eis between LittleGirl and her mother. We are secondary to that relationship and need to respect that as much as she does out primary marriage relationship.

[sluttyunicorn]

hey this is slutty unicorn, i just want the record to show that i was fully happy staying at home if they wanted to both go up to NJ. ilove you ClariceK

[ClariceK]

hey this is slutty unicorn, i just want the record to show that i was fully happy staying at home if they wanted to both go up to NJ. ilove you ClariceK

I know you were babygirl! And I love you for that. Honestly, the big reason I was ok with me going with him was becaue you would be here caring for our beloved animals and I know you would do an excellent job as you love them as your own, even crabby old Sarah LOL

[Pinky1223]

I agree with RP, and AL, on so many levels. I have considered myself the third. I have felt like the third, and I certainly know I "look" like the third when we go out in public. At the same time I know that both Sea and Tommy have also taken turns at being the third. Sea becomes the third when Tommy and I are alone together. When we meet for coffee, go for walks, or sit on a park bench and talk for hours. Tommy becomes the third, when Sea and I stay up all night talking. Having those hard conversations. Conversations he wasn't apart of, and only hears secondhand what was said. We have all been the third at one time or another, and we have all felt left out, at one time or another.

Instead of seeing each of as "the" third, we now see each other as "a" third. Tommy can't possibly love the two of us the same way. We don't look like each other, talk like each other, or think like each other. We are individuals. Not mirrors of each other. There are things that Sea possesses in her personality, that I don't have in mine, and visa versa. It is our differences that attracts him. This last year we have been searching for a balance. Some days the scales become tipped one way or another, and we have to go searching for it again. But we never stop looking for it.

Thank you so much for this post!! Sometimes I get too deep in my brain....thinking and convincing myself that I am always the 3rd wheel but its really not true. I'm actually the center of attention alot of the time and my partners really do try everyday to make me feel and treat me equal. Thanks for reminding me ;)

[AnnabelMore]

This seemed like the most appropriate place for this...

Has this graphic been posted before? So on point!! Well, I think so, anyway. ;) Do you agree/disagree? Did you lol?

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/165651_188351567844992_100000104516819_700320_4059 996_n.jpg

[redpepper]

This seemed like the most appropriate place for this...

Has this graphic been posted before? So on point!! Well, I think so, anyway. ;) Do you agree/disagree? Did you lol?

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/165651_188351567844992_100000104516819_700320_4059 996_n.jpgyes, we've seen it before. Can't remember where though. I posted somewhere. Its in my albums. :)

[nycindie]

A little off-topic and not sure if these will show up here, but you just reminded me:

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o187/envyabull/Untitled195.jpg

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o187/envyabull/Untitled199.jpg

Someone posted these on their OKC Journal.

[TaureanBullPS]

First let me say "Thank you"!!

Next I will say, our relationship is not even a triad relationship. It is a V and I feel that a lot of the aspects you're saying apply for us. Or more specificly me.

I am having a huge issue with Dragonfly falling "IN" love with DragonBorn in less then 2 months since the start of this relationship. There are several reasons for that which I'm not sure would be ok to share or even if I'm comfortable with sharing them yet to all. It has brought out trust issues that I'm having. Fear for loosing the woman I have come to love above all else. And more. Just a lot of negative feelings and emotions.

Thanks to several of you here that have said to not just myself but to a lot of others, that it is ok to feel and have these emotions. I have slowly started to accept that instead of beating the shit out of myself for having these feelings. Thinking I was wrong to feel this way.

Now the problem I am having is trying to find a way for this to work, that doesn't manipulate how they feel about each other. I will be honest, if I had a magic wand... I would not want DF to be "IN" love with DB. But I know that she does. So because she does I don't want to change that. Now also let me say that surprisingly, I don't have any issues with DB being "IN" love with DF. I am also having amazingly HUGE issues with their alone time. And OMG I thank them so much for understanding and saying that they are ok with only spending time together when it's all of us. I feel bad, because I know that they want their alone time just the two of them. But for right now, I am not handling well at all. I get to caught up in my head, wondering what they're doing, what's being said, etc... I'm get afraid wondering when I come home is all my stuff going to be outside with a note saying I'm not wanted anymore. Yeah, crazy I know. But from what I'm learning fear is rarely based off reality.

I just wanted to add this, and I'm sure I will add more later, but I'm kinda on a deadline, and have the "Dragon" family as we've been called are getting to meet HMA and Vi for a late dinner. Hopefully both families can become close and be there for each other with helping hands in times like these. :-)

This mirrors to a T what I feel right now.
I am told that I am the only one who would break up my relationship with person A of A and B. But after a recent event and some conversations, I have gone back to feeling like person C verses person B on the side.
That being my big issue, is that I feel I am ALWAYS going to be that person on the side. I dont know how to talk with Person A regarding what I need him and He along with person B to do, in order to make things work for all.

I dont want person A and B to break up, I just dont want to feel like a Third wheel or " The other Boyfriend "

I love both of them, but am only in intimate interactions with person A. Person B is like a carbon copy of me in so many ways.

I need a friend right now, who understands and has gotten through this part of this type relationship..... OR help sorting out if I can even do this ?

Feeling Confused now.

[AnnabelMore]

Quoting myself from another thread... a little obnoxious, but I wanted to explore this further and was getting way off topic:

"I truly believe that humans just act differently in dyad situations, in ways that are both revealing and bonding."

My point with this statement was, at heart, to reinforce the old idea that a triad is not one relationship of three people but rather four relationships -- A&B, B&C, A&C and A&B&C. To focus on only the last one of the four is, to my mind, to misunderstand how human relationships work.

Thoughts?

Editing in a caveat: I absolutely do not mean to imply that real and significant intimacy and bonding can't occur when all three people in a given three-person relationship are present, both on the dyad level and the triad level. I've very much seen that that isn't true. :) Rather, I think it's important to recognize that the dyad pairs within the triad do exist, and to give them their own space to flourish from time to time.